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Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
05-01-2016, 10:01 PM
Bergdahl defense can access classified information, court rules
Reuters
May 1, 2016

(Reuters) - Lawyers for U.S. Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, who faces a potential life sentence for desertion while serving in Afghanistan, should have access to classified material to prepare his defense, a military appeals court has ruled.

Legal proceedings against Bergdahl, which had been halted pending a resolution of the classified material issue, can now resume, according to a ruling on Thursday by the United States Army Court of Criminal Appeals that was made public late on Saturday by Bergdahl's attorney, Eugene Fidell.

Bergdahl, now 30, walked away from his post in Afghanistan in 2009 and was captured by the Taliban, who held him prisoner for five years and tortured him. He later told military investigators that he left his post because he had a plan to tell military brass about incompetence among his commanders.

He was freed in a prisoner swap in May 2014 involving the release of five Taliban leaders who were being held by the United States. The exchange was criticized by Republicans in Congress.

Bergdahl returned to active duty, but after an investigation he was prosecuted by the U.S. military who said his disappearance from his post resulted in a 45-day search that put soldiers' lives at risk.

The formal charges in his court-martial are desertion and misbehavior before the enemy. He has not entered a plea to the charges or decided whether he will be tried by a military judge or a jury of soldiers.

His defense asked for access to 300,000 pages of classified documents and on Feb. 2 a military judge ruled that the defense should have access to all classified information that the government may offer into evidence at trial.

The U.S. government appealed the ruling saying the judge had abused his discretion. The pre-trial proceedings were put on hold while the issue was being resolved.

The Army Court of Criminal Appeals said in its ruling that the military judge had not granted the defense unfettered access to classified information, but only to material in the context of trial discovery.

"The stay on the trial proceedings imposed by this court is lifted," the judges of the Army Court of Criminal Appeals ruled.

"Itís a technical matter but an important one having to do with cases involving how classified information is litigated," Fidell said on Sunday.

The defense lawyer Fidell told Reuters that a pre-trial conference would resume on May 17 although the Army could still appeal Thursday's ruling.

Bergdahl is free while he awaits trial and is stationed at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio, Texas, where he works at a desk job and receives treatment at a hospital.


(Reporting by Fiona Ortiz in Chicago; additional reportinig by Valerie Volcovici in Washington, D.C.; Editing by Frank McGurty, Alan Crosby and Andrew Hay)

The muslim loving, treasonous bastard should have already been executed by firing squad.
Is the obama going to pardon this bastard too on his way ???
And why is the bastard sitting at a desk drawing army pay?
He should be awaiting the ruling in a cell ..
A major f-up if this slimy weasel gets off with no true punishment and if the obama dictator wants that verdict he'll see that its given.-Tyr

fj1200
05-02-2016, 10:06 AM
So you start a thread to whine about something BO might do? I imagine you said the same things about how BO wouldn't let Hasan be convicted and given the death sentence either.

Gunny
05-02-2016, 10:54 AM
So you start a thread to whine about something BO might do? I imagine you said the same things about how BO wouldn't let Hasan be convicted and given the death sentence either.

Sorry, but tyr's right. His ass should be sharing a cell with Billary. And ruling that classified info can be released? Stupid. You'd be crucified for that sh*t when I was in.

fj1200
05-02-2016, 10:57 AM
Sorry, but tyr's right. His ass should be sharing a cell with Billary. And ruling that classified info can be released? Stupid. You'd be crucified for that sh*t when I was in.

That's not why he's wrong. ;)

Elessar
05-02-2016, 01:06 PM
Sorry, but tyr's right. His ass should be sharing a cell with Billary. And ruling that classified info can be released? Stupid. You'd be crucified for that sh*t when I was in.

I agree with most of Tyr's sentiments, but he is entitled to still draw pay pending the outcome
of the trial. Yes, he can draw pay in a cell too, which where he belongs.

But what baffles me, referring to Gunny's comment, is how can a judge over-rule what is basically
Federal Law regarding release of classified information? Unless the basis of the trial IS over such
information, the whole premise of introducing it is a real stretch. The source of the information
would have approve and cleanse the data for release, not some frikkin' judge.

Something just does not pass the smell test on this.

fj1200
05-02-2016, 02:15 PM
Sorry, but tyr's right. His ass should be sharing a cell with Billary. And ruling that classified info can be released? Stupid. You'd be crucified for that sh*t when I was in.

The article didn't say released.


The Army Court of Criminal Appeals said in its ruling that the military judge had not granted the defense unfettered access to classified information, but only to material in the context of trial discovery.


I agree with most of Tyr's sentiments, but he is entitled to still draw pay pending the outcome
of the trial. Yes, he can draw pay in a cell too, which where he belongs.

But what baffles me, referring to Gunny's comment, is how can a judge over-rule what is basically
Federal Law regarding release of classified information? Unless the basis of the trial IS over such
information, the whole premise of introducing it is a real stretch. The source of the information
would have approve and cleanse the data for release, not some frikkin' judge.

Something just does not pass the smell test on this.

How do you expect him to mount a defense if the prosecution is relying on classified information?

Elessar
05-02-2016, 02:19 PM
The article didn't say released.
How do you expect him to mount a defense if the prosecution is relying on classified information?

What don't you understand about this. Something is not being said and is pretty vague.
The Law is quite clear. If it does indeed involve classified material, it would be a closed
trial and only those that carry appropriate clearances would be allowed in the court room :

"But what baffles me, referring to Gunny's comment, is how can a judge over-rule what is basically
Federal Law regarding release of classified information? Unless the basis of the trial IS over such information,
the whole premise of introducing it is a real stretch. The source of the information
would have to approve and cleanse the data for release, not some frikkin' judge.

Something just does not pass the smell test on this."

fj1200
05-02-2016, 02:20 PM
What don't you understand about this:

Why it's such a kerfuffle 'round these parts.

Gunny
05-02-2016, 03:27 PM
The article didn't say released.





How do you expect him to mount a defense if the prosecution is relying on classified information?

Nothing classified on leaving one's post in a combat zone. And NO excuse, no defense. Classified material is immaterial to THAT. There's NOTHING some dumb grunt knows that's important enough to leave his team. We rely on each other to survive. There is NOTHING that moron could have known that excuses the cost in lives he is responsible for.

There's no excuse he could have if I was sitting on that court martial. You want out? You walk up, in the rear and tell your Gunny/SFC/CPO "I'm a pussy and want to go home." You DON'T WALK OFF THE LINE. Pople are counting on you to stay alive. F*ck THAT noise. Cowardice in front of the enemy. Compromising the integrity of my team. F*ck YOU. I'll see your ass in Hell. They should shoot his ass as far as I'm concerned. Scumbag, weak-ass traitor. I hope the Arabs used used him for a bitch every day. Six GOOD soldiers died trying to find his deserter ass. He deserves the worst anyone can get.

Elessar
05-02-2016, 08:32 PM
Nothing classified on leaving one's post in a combat zone. And NO excuse, no defense. Classified material is immaterial to THAT. There's NOTHING some dumb grunt knows that's important enough to leave his team. We rely on each other to survive. There is NOTHING that moron could


This precisely why I say the whole thing does not pass the smell test.

Only thing I can see possible is troop strengths, positions, and armament -
but all of that is a bit hard to hide.

If it involves anything else, the originator of the intel has to declassify it and allow
release, not some frikkin' judge.

fj1200
05-03-2016, 11:06 AM
Nice edit. :rolleyes:


What don't you understand about this. Something is not being said and is pretty vague.
The Law is quite clear. If it does indeed involve classified material, it would be a closed
trial and only those that carry appropriate clearances would be allowed in the court room :

"But what baffles me, referring to Gunny's comment, is how can a judge over-rule what is basically
Federal Law regarding release of classified information? Unless the basis of the trial IS over such information,
the whole premise of introducing it is a real stretch. The source of the information
would have to approve and cleanse the data for release, not some frikkin' judge.

Something just does not pass the smell test on this."

It's just an article and I'll tend to give the article written at a multi-thousand foot level discretion until there is evidence to that it is wrong and not how it smells. The first judge made a ruling and an Army appeals court reversed it. I also didn't read where all this classified data was going to be released nor that it would be an open trial. My apologies if I missed that part.

But you didn't answer my original question; how can they mount a defense if they don't have access to the same classified material that the prosecutor may be using?


Nothing classified on leaving one's post in a combat zone. And NO excuse, no defense. Classified material is immaterial to THAT. There's NOTHING some dumb grunt knows that's important enough to leave his team. We rely on each other to survive. There is NOTHING that moron could have known that excuses the cost in lives he is responsible for.

There's no excuse he could have if I was sitting on that court martial. You want out? You walk up, in the rear and tell your Gunny/SFC/CPO "I'm a pussy and want to go home." You DON'T WALK OFF THE LINE. Pople are counting on you to stay alive. F*ck THAT noise. Cowardice in front of the enemy. Compromising the integrity of my team. F*ck YOU. I'll see your ass in Hell. They should shoot his ass as far as I'm concerned. Scumbag, weak-ass traitor. I hope the Arabs used used him for a bitch every day. Six GOOD soldiers died trying to find his deserter ass. He deserves the worst anyone can get.

I don't disagree with any of that but if the prosecutor is using classified material then the defense needs to see it as well.

Gunny
05-03-2016, 11:18 AM
Nice edit. :rolleyes:



It's just an article and I'll tend to give the article written at a multi-thousand foot level discretion until there is evidence to that it is wrong and not how it smells. The first judge made a ruling and an Army appeals court reversed it. I also didn't read where all this classified data was going to be released nor that it would be an open trial. My apologies if I missed that part.

But you didn't answer my original question; how can they mount a defense if they don't have access to the same classified material that the prosecutor may be using?



I don't disagree with any of that but if the prosecutor is using classified material then the defense needs to see it as well.

Let's dumb this down to grunt speak. Deserting your post is NOT classified. It's a criminal act punishable by death. I wouldn't have traded 2 marbles and a Matchbox car for his ass. I'd have needed only one round. Six people died because of your whiny ass? No mercy. Not here. Talking to the wrong guy. You walk off the line and I hope you die a slow death. You just compromised my fucking unit. Lives are at stake. I could give a shit less about your personal problems.

And what classified material is a grunt on the line privy to? None. I only had a clearance because I wasn't on the line, exactly. This is political bullshit. Did this lawyer star in an episode of Law and Order?

fj1200
05-03-2016, 11:22 AM
Let's dumb this down to grunt speak. Deserting your post is NOT classified. It's a criminal act punishable by death. I wouldn't have traded 2 marbles and a Matchbox car for his ass. I'd have needed only one round. Six people died because of your whiny ass? No mercy. Not here. Talking to the wrong guy. You walk off the line and I hope you die a slow death. You just compromised my fucking unit. Lives are at stake. I could give a shit less about your personal problems.

And what classified material is a grunt on the line privy to? None. I only had a clearance because I wasn't on the line, exactly. This is political bullshit. Did this lawyer star in an episode of Law and Order?

Again, I don't disagree with any of that. I have no idea why classified material is relevant here.

CSM
05-03-2016, 11:34 AM
Again, I don't disagree with any of that. I have no idea why classified material is relevant here.

I can only speculate on the relevance of classified material in this case but (without getting into conspiracy theories) I can envision a few scenarios that might apply such as an informant embedded within the enemy camp that knew or knows more specifics of the hows and whys; thus classified material such as correspondence with said informant or means of communication etc. could be of a more sensitive nature.

Elessar
05-03-2016, 12:38 PM
Again, I don't disagree with any of that. I have no idea why classified material is relevant here.

FJ...

I was not in combat arms, but I was cleared up to Top Secret.
That is why I say this does not pass the smell test, and there is
obviously something being left out.

Got to agree completely with Gunny. A line grunt *might* have
a Confidential clearance - just like our junior enlisteds on boat crews.

Why an issue like this was put in a trial is a puzzler, and I stood as
Bailiff and Master at Arms in many NJP sessions and Courts-Martial.

The whole procedure in this one and the reasonings so far released
are about as clear as mud.

Elessar
05-03-2016, 12:43 PM
I can only speculate on the relevance of classified material in this case but (without getting into conspiracy theories) I can envision a few scenarios that might apply such as an informant embedded within the enemy camp that knew or knows more specifics of the hows and whys; thus classified material such as correspondence with said informant or means of communication etc. could be of a more sensitive nature.

That was a suspicion of mine as well; however also agree with
avoiding conspiracy theories.

We do not know the details of whole case being worked on; thus, my
comments regarding the smell test.

Gunny
05-03-2016, 02:22 PM
I can only speculate on the relevance of classified material in this case but (without getting into conspiracy theories) I can envision a few scenarios that might apply such as an informant embedded within the enemy camp that knew or knows more specifics of the hows and whys; thus classified material such as correspondence with said informant or means of communication etc. could be of a more sensitive nature.

You know the drill, Sergeant Major. You can explain to the troops why the Gunny's having a "private discussion" behind the hooches. You left your post and cost me six lives. You better hope I don't find you. I'll shoot your ass myself. After I get done beating it.

There's nothing worse in my mindset than letting the rest of the team down over some stupid political sh*t. That's not our job. Bringing each other home is. I don't care what this lower than a dirtbag's problem was. You don't pull out of the line. Want to be a p*ssy? I'll send you to CSM. When we're in the rear and off the line. You don't walk off your post.

Now this dirtbag's playing victim? GMAFB.

fj1200
05-03-2016, 02:39 PM
FJ...

I was not in combat arms, but I was cleared up to Top Secret.
That is why I say this does not pass the smell test, and there is
obviously something being left out.

Got to agree completely with Gunny. A line grunt *might* have
a Confidential clearance - just like our junior enlisteds on boat crews.

Why an issue like this was put in a trial is a puzzler, and I stood as
Bailiff and Master at Arms in many NJP sessions and Courts-Martial.

The whole procedure in this one and the reasonings so far released
are about as clear as mud.

I was none of that but there are a whole lot of folks who were all of that and more who will be deciding Bergdahl's fate. Either way the defense needs to have access to what the prosecutor has access to.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
05-03-2016, 02:42 PM
Nothing classified on leaving one's post in a combat zone. And NO excuse, no defense. Classified material is immaterial to THAT. There's NOTHING some dumb grunt knows that's important enough to leave his team. We rely on each other to survive. There is NOTHING that moron could have known that excuses the cost in lives he is responsible for.

There's no excuse he could have if I was sitting on that court martial. You want out? You walk up, in the rear and tell your Gunny/SFC/CPO "I'm a pussy and want to go home." You DON'T WALK OFF THE LINE. Pople are counting on you to stay alive. F*ck THAT noise. Cowardice in front of the enemy. Compromising the integrity of my team. F*ck YOU. I'll see your ass in Hell. They should shoot his ass as far as I'm concerned. Scumbag, weak-ass traitor. I hope the Arabs used used him for a bitch every day. Six GOOD soldiers died trying to find his deserter ass. He deserves the worst anyone can get.

I hope they execute his traitorous, muzzy loving ass.
Notice the muzzy obama celebrated him and his call to understand the muzzy enemy and betray his own comrades!!
That is because the traitor obama (muslim-in-hiding) agrees with this deserter and his treason. A fact..-Tyr

Gunny
05-03-2016, 02:47 PM
I was none of that but there are a whole lot of folks who were all of that and more who will be deciding Bergdahl's fate. Either way the defense needs to have access to what the prosecutor has access to.

Line grunts don't have access to classified material. They have access to rounds for their weapons. This is a bunch of crap. He must have some dumbass civilian lawyer trying to play games. He walked off the line in a combat zone. End of story. You're dead in my book. All the other people you let down? The ones your actions got killed?

I think not. This ain't a game in real time.

jimnyc
05-03-2016, 02:49 PM
Saw the title and thought maybe the thread was about MFM. :dunno:

Gunny
05-03-2016, 02:59 PM
Saw the title and thought maybe the thread was about MFM. :dunno:

He's a squid, dumbass. :laugh: They're ALL maggots. Until they turn that boat to port and lay some lead on someone's asses. Then they get to be okay for the rest of the day. :laugh:

Gunny
05-03-2016, 08:41 PM
We need a new thread on this topic. Support Personnel.

Gunny
05-03-2016, 08:49 PM
I hope they execute his traitorous, muzzy loving ass.
Notice the muzzy obama celebrated him and his call to understand the muzzy enemy and betray his own comrades!!
That is because the traitor obama (muslim-in-hiding) agrees with this deserter and his treason. A fact..-Tyr

I woulddn't have wasted a single asset looking for him. I'm a grunt. You bail on me on the line and I don't care if lightening strikes you. Except that would be too damned quick of a death. I want a slow burn and you suffer. For every life you cost. There's no mercy in me. You can forget that shit. I'd bust his knees with a Louisville Slugger. and watch him crawl. And I'd take away his canteen. Just fucking die, fucker.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
05-03-2016, 09:33 PM
I woulddn't have wasted a single asset looking for him. I'm a grunt. You bail on me on the line and I don't care if lightening strikes you. Except that would be too damned quick of a death. I want a slow burn and you suffer. For every life you cost. There's no mercy in me. You can forget that shit. I'd bust his knees with a Louisville Slugger. and watch him crawl. And I'd take away his canteen. Just fucking die, fucker.

They should have already shot his worthless ass for desertion!!!-:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

THE WORTHLESS WHITEHOUSE MUZZY CiC (HIMSELF A DAMN TRAITOR) KEPT THAT FROM HAPPENING SOONER IF AT ALL , IMHO..-Tyr

Gunny
05-04-2016, 03:27 AM
They should have already shot his worthless ass for desertion!!!-:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

THE WORTHLESS WHITEHOUSE MUZZY CiC (HIMSELF A DAMN TRAITOR) KEPT THAT FROM HAPPENING SOONER IF AT ALL , IMHO..-Tyr

You don't desert your post in a combat zone. Not in MY Field Manual. Unacceptable.

Mr Legacy slammed the door on his own crank on this one. One of the dumbest decisions in history. I'd have let them keep him.

fj1200
05-04-2016, 02:18 PM
Line grunts don't have access to classified material. They have access to rounds for their weapons. This is a bunch of crap. He must have some dumbass civilian lawyer trying to play games. He walked off the line in a combat zone. End of story. You're dead in my book. All the other people you let down? The ones your actions got killed?

I think not. This ain't a game in real time.

That's all well and good but it seems it will have some role in the trial.

Gunny
05-04-2016, 02:40 PM
That's all well and good but it seems it will have some role in the trial.

It's called grasping at straws. A line grunt doesn't have a clearance unless he's a sniper or high ranking. Nothing classified has ANY pertinence to walking off the line in a combat zone. I don't care if he had the codes to the nukes. You walk off the line and endanger those counting on you, you f-ing suck and deserve to die. That's where the rubber meets the road.

Now some lawyer is playing a game? Let's see .... last I checked at his rank you needed to be comm or automated support or admin to have a clearance. 0311 don't rate.

fj1200
05-05-2016, 07:24 AM
It's called grasping at straws. A line grunt doesn't have a clearance unless he's a sniper or high ranking. Nothing classified has ANY pertinence to walking off the line in a combat zone. I don't care if he had the codes to the nukes. You walk off the line and endanger those counting on you, you f-ing suck and deserve to die. That's where the rubber meets the road.

Now some lawyer is playing a game? Let's see .... last I checked at his rank you needed to be comm or automated support or admin to have a clearance. 0311 don't rate.

You're avoiding the issue. Why is the government entering classified material into evidence?


His defense asked for access to 300,000 pages of classified documents and on Feb. 2 a military judge ruled that the defense should have access to all classified information that the government may offer into evidence at trial.

The U.S. government appealed the ruling saying the judge had abused his discretion. The pre-trial proceedings were put on hold while the issue was being resolved.

The Army Court of Criminal Appeals said in its ruling that the military judge had not granted the defense unfettered access to classified information, but only to material in the context of trial discovery.

jimnyc
05-05-2016, 07:32 AM
You're avoiding the issue. Why is the government entering classified material into evidence?

My guess? Probably things that took place after his disappearing, things that were undertaken to try and find and retrieve him perhaps? Or anything revolving around him and this issue that of course is classified. He should get his penalty based on walking away alone, IMO. Whether others may have died while trying to find him only places more nails in his coffin, but his coffin was made when he walked away from his post.

Russ
05-05-2016, 08:17 AM
Sorry, but tyr's right. His ass should be sharing a cell with Billary. And ruling that classified info can be released? Stupid. You'd be crucified for that sh*t when I was in.

Yep, Tyr is right. Something is fishy about this guy still not being in jail. And Tyr's prediction about a pardon sounds on the money, as well. It fits Obama's profile.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
05-05-2016, 08:53 AM
My guess? Probably things that took place after his disappearing, things that were undertaken to try and find and retrieve him perhaps? Or anything revolving around him and this issue that of course is classified. He should get his penalty based on walking away alone, IMO. Whether others may have died while trying to find him only places more nails in his coffin, but his coffin was made when he walked away from his post.
Not only that but also very suddenly after the traitor joined his new comrades, the enemy started hitting our patrols with increased accuracy and effect. Setting up ambushes at key locations our guys patrolled- its documented fact and only one thing could effect such increased accuracy -traitor boy gave them key information on patrols, schedules, locations, resting points etc.
Some of that classified info could be pointing out with facts this increased enemy success hitting our guys immediately after the maggot joined them.
He got our guys killed and I think that he actively helped the muslim enemy as soon as he joined them--
In fact he went to do just that..-Tyr

Gunny
05-05-2016, 09:25 AM
You're avoiding the issue. Why is the government entering classified material into evidence?

Actually, I am avoiding nothing. I'm stating been there done that facts. Either they declassify the info, or everyone to include witnesses in the court martial has to have the appropriate clearance. This the same as Hillary's BS. What's the point of having classified material if you can just sling it around?

If you're asking ME why the government or a lawyer is doing anything, you're wasting bandwidth. I couldn't tell you because I don't think like either entity. I think like exactly what I am. A jarhead. I've already stated he's guilty in my book. He walked off the line. He deserted in front of the enemy. I don't need classified material to make that decision and I don't know what's the point of dragging this crap out. He should be in Leavenworth for life or shot dead for desertion. He let down his team and he got people killed trying to find him.

No excuse would or will be good enough for me.

And Obama should be impeached for being THE most incompetent CinC we've ever had to trade high ranking Taliban members for a low-life deserter.

fj1200
05-09-2016, 10:12 AM
Yep, Tyr is right. Something is fishy about this guy still not being in jail. And Tyr's prediction about a pardon sounds on the money, as well. It fits Obama's profile.

When was the last BO pardoned a deserter?


Actually, I am avoiding nothing. I'm stating been there done that facts. Either they declassify the info, or everyone to include witnesses in the court martial has to have the appropriate clearance. This the same as Hillary's BS. What's the point of having classified material if you can just sling it around?

If you're asking ME why the government or a lawyer is doing anything, you're wasting bandwidth. I couldn't tell you because I don't think like either entity. I think like exactly what I am. A jarhead. I've already stated he's guilty in my book. He walked off the line. He deserted in front of the enemy. I don't need classified material to make that decision and I don't know what's the point of dragging this crap out. He should be in Leavenworth for life or shot dead for desertion. He let down his team and he got people killed trying to find him.

No excuse would or will be good enough for me.

And Obama should be impeached for being THE most incompetent CinC we've ever had to trade high ranking Taliban members for a low-life deserter.

I'm not sure where we disagree. The only question is why classified material is relevant?

fj1200
05-09-2016, 10:13 AM
My guess? Probably things that took place after his disappearing, things that were undertaken to try and find and retrieve him perhaps? Or anything revolving around him and this issue that of course is classified. He should get his penalty based on walking away alone, IMO. Whether others may have died while trying to find him only places more nails in his coffin, but his coffin was made when he walked away from his post.

:dunno: All we can do is speculate. I'm sure they have it under control.

jimnyc
05-09-2016, 10:18 AM
:dunno: All we can do is speculate. I'm sure they have it under control.

Hopefully they have it under control, and will end up sticking this guy in a gas chamber, or an electric chair, or hang him, or shoot him 34x in the chest. :)

Gunny
05-09-2016, 10:32 AM
When was the last BO pardoned a deserter?



I'm not sure where we disagree. The only question is why classified material is relevant?

That's what I've been saying. Classified material should not be relevant to deserting one's post. I don't care why he deserted his post. There is NO excuse for walking off the line. He better hope there ain't a bunch of grunts on his court martial. There ain't going to be a whole lot of mercy going on. And if he's stupid enough to take a civilian lawyer who wants to play an excuse game and deflect, I hope Perry Mason in top shape.

You sit on a court martial and you bone up on all the regs. Nobody wants to hear your excuses. You got a reason? All ears. You got an excuse for walking off the line? You're doing time.

Unfortunately, this is going to go the way Hitlery's shit is. Obama's going to stall and hem and hodge. If Hitlery wins the GE, this asshat coward will probably walk.

fj1200
05-09-2016, 10:49 AM
That's what I've been saying. Classified material should not be relevant to deserting one's post. I don't care why he deserted his post. There is NO excuse for walking off the line. He better hope there ain't a bunch of grunts on his court martial. There ain't going to be a whole lot of mercy going on. And if he's stupid enough to take a civilian lawyer who wants to play an excuse game and deflect, I hope Perry Mason in top shape.

You sit on a court martial and you bone up on all the regs. Nobody wants to hear your excuses. You got a reason? All ears. You got an excuse for walking off the line? You're doing time.

Unfortunately, this is going to go the way Hitlery's shit is. Obama's going to stall and hem and hodge. If Hitlery wins the GE, this asshat coward will probably walk.

To which I've not disagreed. :)

Gunny
05-09-2016, 11:44 AM
To which I've not disagreed. :)

I actually sat on a court martial for this very thing. And believe it or not, I was a defense witness. You don't give a contract Lance Corporal classified material and send him into downtown San Diego where the comm center is. He was a dumb kid. I'd have busted the Gunny that did it. Get off your lazy ass, take some responsibility and do it yourself. This kid had less than 6 months in the Corps. I'm not handing him Secret material and sending him downtown. He got pulled over by civilian cops for something and had a briefcase full of classified material in his trunk. Which was more secure than Hitlery's server.

I DID get him out of doing time, but he got busted to Pvt and an other than honorable discharge.

Why is Hitlery above that law?

fj1200
05-09-2016, 12:30 PM
Why is Hitlery above that law?

She shouldn't be and hopefully will not be.

Elessar
05-09-2016, 02:41 PM
Actually, I am avoiding nothing. I'm stating been there done that facts. Either they declassify the info, or everyone to include witnesses in the court martial has to have the appropriate clearance. This the same as Hillary's BS. What's the point of having classified material if you can just sling it around?



I said that above.

Why is it so simple for You, Me, and other Vets to understand this? :dunno:

Gunny
05-09-2016, 03:37 PM
I said that above.

Why is it so simple for You, Me, and other Vets to understand this? :dunno:

No idea. His best bet is to request officer representation on the court. Or go trial by judge. You put enlisted people on that court martial and we'll hang him. You put enlisted grunts on that board and someone will bring the rope.

fj1200
05-10-2016, 02:23 PM
I said that above.

Why is it so simple for You, Me, and other Vets to understand this? :dunno:

Did anyone disagree? :dunno:

Elessar
05-10-2016, 08:38 PM
Did anyone disagree? :dunno:

It sure looked as such. I said the whole issue did not pass the smell
test. It does not matter if the prosecution opened to topic or not.
To leave it to a judge to make a decision as to admissible or not,
concerning classified material, just raises red flags by those of us
who have carried clearances.

And to release these pre-trial statements concerning the content of
the case is piss-poor judgement by someone.

Gunny
05-10-2016, 08:53 PM
I said that above.

Why is it so simple for You, Me, and other Vets to understand this? :dunno:

Simple answer: they aren't vets. Took me awhile to figure that one out too. They don't talk like us. I don't get it. I just understand it for what it is. I got what you meant the second I read it. We're desensitized. They aren't. You got to take them for who they are.

Black Diamond
05-10-2016, 09:03 PM
Simple answer: they aren't vets. Took me awhile to figure that one out too. They don't talk like us. I don't get it. I just understand it for what it is. I got what you meant the second I read it. We're desensitized. They aren't. You got to take them for who they are.

I've said this before. We haven't been through boot camp.

Elessar
05-10-2016, 11:38 PM
Simple answer: they aren't vets. Took me awhile to figure that one out too. They don't talk like us. I don't get it. I just understand it for what it is. I got what you meant the second I read it. We're desensitized. They aren't. You got to take them for who they are.

I should have said that it was a rhetorical question!:laugh:

Elessar
05-10-2016, 11:44 PM
I've said this before. We haven't been through boot camp.

BD...it does not take boot camp. Some of this stuff is far above basic training.
The first 6 months of an enlistment or officer appointment is a probationary period.
You acquire more exposure and knowledge as you go up in rank or paygrade.

There are at least 5 of us here that are quite familiar with a topic such as this.
It is hopeful that those who are not will learn from us! It would clear up a
whole lot of misconceptions!

No offense meant, either!

Gunny
05-11-2016, 07:15 AM
I've said this before. We haven't been through boot camp.

I understand. I meant no insult at all. It is what it is especially for those of us that stayed for the full ride. It isn't about boot camp. The sarcasm is a coping mechanism. We don't have time to stand around and cry. Again, no insult intended. It's just a different mindset. We are programmed to accomplish a mission regardless who gets hurt or dies. Why do you think we're all goofed up? We sit around after the fact and what you've seen plays over and over in your head.

We're ALL smartasses. That's just how we deal. You get shot? You'll be accused of trying to get out of work. I got ragged on mercilessly when I broke my ankles and blew out my knee. By a bunch of junior ass troops. "The Sgt's just trying to get of PT". :laugh:

We threaten to kill each other several times a day. Hell, if no one threatens to kill you, you feel left out. We will make fun of anything. And as I've said on numerous occasions, I make a lousy civilian. I've been retired for 16 years and still don't get y'all. So it's not a one-way street. Y'all do the goofiest, most inefficient and pointless shit. :laugh:

AND ... I am only trying to explain a mindset. Y'all want to piss on each other, I'm not going to be the guy in the middle. I just don't think it's worth it over a misunderstanding.

Gunny
05-11-2016, 07:20 AM
BD...it does not take boot camp. Some of this stuff is far above basic training.
The first 6 months of an enlistment or officer appointment is a probationary period.
You acquire more exposure and knowledge as you go up in rank or paygrade.

There are at least 5 of us here that are quite familiar with a topic such as this.
It is hopeful that those who are not will learn from us! It would clear up a
whole lot of misconceptions!

No offense meant, either!

They don't get it and I quit expecting them to. Just like we don't get them. I just try and be careful and know who I'm talking to. And I agree that IMO you meant no offense. When you want to be a smartass squid, remember your audience.:slap:

fj1200
05-11-2016, 10:28 AM
It sure looked as such. I said the whole issue did not pass the smell
test. It does not matter if the prosecution opened to topic or not.
To leave it to a judge to make a decision as to admissible or not,
concerning classified material, just raises red flags by those of us
who have carried clearances.

And to release these pre-trial statements concerning the content of
the case is piss-poor judgement by someone.

Didn't look that way to me. Nevertheless that's what judges do. They make decisions to admissibility all the time; it becomes news in a high profile case.

Gunny
05-11-2016, 10:46 AM
Didn't look that way to me. Nevertheless that's what judges do. They make decisions to admissibility all the time; it becomes news in a high profile case.

But you think like a civilian. WE are judge and jury in the field. I'm not going to sit there and debate who does what. You move or people die. We don't have the luxury of second guessing ourselves. You can Monday morning QB all you want but when you're on the spot, you make a decision.

And i don't feel special. I'd hate to be a firefighter. But judging us for the decisions we make when you got a half a second to make them is just bull. First responders are called that for a reason. We have to make split second judgements. If we paid attention to what was going on and who was hurt, we could all break down and cry. Instead, we carry the f- on. We get to cry later.

fj1200
05-11-2016, 10:53 AM
But you think like a civilian. WE are judge and jury in the field. I'm not going to sit there and debate who does what. You move or people die. We don't have the luxury of second guessing ourselves. You can Monday morning QB all you want but when you're on the spot, you make a decision.

And i don't feel special. I'd hate to be a firefighter. But judging us for the decisions we make when you got a half a second to make them is just bull. First responders are called that for a reason. We have to make split second judgements. If we paid attention to what was going on and who was hurt, we could all break down and cry. Instead, we carry the f- on. We get to cry later.

I think I'm about to set a record for agreeing with you 100% in one single thread. :scared:

I've not been where you were/are by any stretch and I don't pretend to sit in judgement of anyone. What's-his-name will be judged on his actions by folks like you as he should be and his trial will be overseen by military judges as it should be. I appreciate the educated insight that you and CSM bring to the discussion.

Gunny
05-11-2016, 11:16 AM
I think I'm about to set a record for agreeing with you 100% in one single thread. :scared:

I've not been where you were/are by any stretch and I don't pretend to sit in judgement of anyone. What's-his-name will be judged on his actions by folks like you as he should be and his trial will be overseen by military judges as it should be. I appreciate the educated insight that you and CSM bring to the discussion.

What I don't like is nobody listens. You create us. And I will quote: "Did I request thee father to make me man?' Then you shun us. You don't try to understand us. You just use us then throw us away.

Then some pussy comes along and tries to make some dirtbag some kind of hero. I've watched people bleed out. On the fucking line. You run away? You're lower than whale shit in the Trench. And you let me, CSM, elessar, namvet. aboutime sit on this court martial. We're all field vets. I'm thinking firing squad. Ain't going to be no mercy.

Elessar
05-11-2016, 02:17 PM
What I don't like is nobody listens. You create us. And I will quote: "Did I request thee father to make me man?' Then you shun us. You don't try to understand us. You just use us then throw us away.

Then some pussy comes along and tries to make some dirtbag some kind of hero. I've watched people bleed out. On the fucking line. You run away? You're lower than whale shit in the Trench. And you let me, CSM, elessar, namvet. aboutime sit on this court martial. We're all field vets. I'm thinking firing squad. Ain't going to be no mercy.

I stood as Bailiff and Master-at-Arms in one Court Martial when the accused was charged with
17 counts of sexual assault and / or abuse of female recruits. He held a position in the Gym there
that I once had.

The defense attorney, a Navy LT, asked me at the end of the first day - opening remarks - what
I thought should be the outcome. In standing in the court, I am neutral! But I told that lawyer that
he should be given the maximum punishment allowed because it was an embarrassment to the
Training Center Command and the Coast Guard.

Elessar
05-11-2016, 02:20 PM
I think I'm about to set a record for agreeing with you 100% in one single thread. :scared:

I've not been where you were/are by any stretch and I don't pretend to sit in judgement of anyone. What's-his-name will be judged on his actions by folks like you as he should be and his trial will be overseen by military judges as it should be. I appreciate the educated insight that you and CSM bring to the discussion.

Good on You, FJ!

Gunny
05-11-2016, 05:38 PM
I stood as Bailiff and Master-at-Arms in one Court Martial when the accused was charged with
17 counts of sexual assault and / or abuse of female recruits. He held a position in the Gym there
that I once had.

The defense attorney, a Navy LT, asked me at the end of the first day - opening remarks - what
I thought should be the outcome. In standing in the court, I am neutral! But I told that lawyer that
he should be given the maximum punishment allowed because it was an embarrassment to the
Training Center Command and the Coast Guard.

It's called doing your duty. You couldn't put me as MAA on this one. Bergahl is a traitor and a deserter. No way am I keeping an unbiased view. You don't desert your bro's. That's an unforgivable sin.