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indago
05-08-2016, 01:49 PM
From The Associated Press 7 May 2016:
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An Ivy League professor said his flight was delayed because a fellow passenger thought the math equations he was writing might be a sign he was a terrorist. American Airlines confirms that the woman expressed suspicions about University of Pennsylvania economics professor Guido Menzio. ...Menzio said he was flying from Philadelphia to Syracuse on Thursday night and was solving a differential equation related to a speech he was set to give at Queen's University in Ontario, Canada. He said the woman sitting next to him passed a note to a flight attendant and the plane headed back to the gate.
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article (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FLIGHT_DELAY_PROFESSORS_MATH_MISGIVINGS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-05-07-16-18-36)

Elessar
05-08-2016, 02:03 PM
Stupid knee-jerk reaction from an ignorant person!

indago
05-08-2016, 02:08 PM
Stupid knee-jerk reaction from an ignorant person!

Yes, a real nosy BusyBody...

aboutime
05-08-2016, 02:08 PM
Stupid knee-jerk reaction from an ignorant person!


Nobody told any of us here that GABBY would be writing notes to Flight Attendants!:laugh:

indago
05-09-2016, 05:21 AM
Nobody told any of us here that GABBY would be writing notes to Flight Attendants!:laugh:


You should talk...

sundaydriver
05-09-2016, 08:11 AM
Hey Guido. Next time drizzle some Marinara sauce on your tie before boarding so they know your Italian.

fj1200
05-13-2016, 02:05 PM
Stupid knee-jerk reaction from an ignorant person!

And if this is different from various Muslim folks getting tossed?

Elessar
05-13-2016, 02:43 PM
And if this is different from various Muslim folks getting tossed?

Whether people like it or not, profiling individuals is an essential
security and law enforcement tool.

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it might
just be a duck".

Why possibly compromise the welfare of everyone in a flight when
someone fits the image of what is known to be a terrorist that will
blow the damn plane up and kill everyone?

That's the world we live in now. Inconvenience a few to protect
the many.

Gunny
05-13-2016, 03:36 PM
Whether people like it or not, profiling individuals is an essential
security and law enforcement tool.

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it might
just be a duck".

Why possibly compromise the welfare of everyone in a flight when
someone fits the image of what is known to be a terrorist that will
blow the damn plane up and kill everyone?

That's the world we live in now. Inconvenience a few to protect
the many.

Have to agree. I profile everyone to include looking for weapons and their reach. You can't un-train me from that. I watch every one and every thing.

I've said this before ... people should think about what they are doing as others are going to perceive it. The whole ID thing. Who you think you are, who others perceive you as, and who you really are.

However, in fairness, this says as much about the ignorance of the accuser as it does the accused. It'd take some serious engineering to take over a plane with a pencil. And, I can tell the difference between a mathematical equation and a chemistry one. I've also got enough common sense to know my enemy. What's he going to do? Drop his tray table and build an explosive device with the parts he got through security? Jedi Mind Trick? These are not the tools and components you are looking for.

KNOW YOUR ENEMY. These Arab terrorists are NOT dumb. Not so sure about our civilian population though. That doesn't mean I think they are right. I just know first hand they ain't dumb.

fj1200
05-14-2016, 03:09 PM
Whether people like it or not, profiling individuals is an essential
security and law enforcement tool.

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it might
just be a duck".

Why possibly compromise the welfare of everyone in a flight when
someone fits the image of what is known to be a terrorist that will
blow the damn plane up and kill everyone?

That's the world we live in now. Inconvenience a few to protect
the many.

So the only difference in some cases between ignorance and vigilance is the religion of the person in question? Seems rather simplistic.

Gunny
05-14-2016, 03:19 PM
So the only difference in some cases between ignorance and vigilance is the religion of the person in question? Seems rather simplistic.

The difference is 9/11 and not-9/11. Islamic extremists don't care about the consequences of their actions as long as they kill someone. This is a consequence of 9/11. It's ruined flying for ALL of us.

Muslims have brought this on themselves because THEY haven't done a thing about it.

fj1200
05-14-2016, 03:38 PM
The difference is 9/11 and not-9/11. Islamic extremists don't care about the consequences of their actions as long as they kill someone. This is a consequence of 9/11. It's ruined flying for ALL of us.

Muslims have brought this on themselves because THEY haven't done a thing about it.

As I said, simplistic. The outcome of that thinking is banning any and all Muslims from flying just because. Though it also explains quite a few threads around here.

Gunny
05-14-2016, 04:18 PM
As I said, simplistic. The outcome of that thinking is banning any and all Muslims from flying just because. Though it also explains quite a few threads around here.

Then perhaps you can tell the simple people. The majority is suffering for the actions of the minority. I'd ban all Arab Muslims from entering this country was it me.

What it explains is Pearl Harbor, 9/11 ... let's pretend it's not there.

Elessar
05-14-2016, 08:16 PM
So the only difference in some cases between ignorance and vigilance is the religion of the person in question? Seems rather simplistic.

I neither said nor inferred that. Not one word about
religion was in my statement.

Trying to put words in people's mouths again FJ?

Not all proclaimed Muslims are of Middle East descent.
Not all Roman Catholics are Italian or from Europe.
See the pattern of your assumption? Baseless!

gabosaurus
05-14-2016, 11:37 PM
I'm sorry, people, but if you can't discern the difference between a math problem and Arabic, you are probably too stupid to be walking around in public.

There was a time back in my college days when I was on a plane back to SF. I was doing some homework in differential equations. The man sitting next to me kept looking at what I was doing. Instead of being a creep, he was a high school math teacher. He ended up helping me with my homework. :cool:

Elessar
05-14-2016, 11:53 PM
I'm sorry, people, but if you can't discern the difference between a math problem and Arabic, you are probably too stupid to be walking around in public.

There was a time back in my college days when I was on a plane back to SF. I was doing some homework in differential equations. The man sitting next to me kept looking at what I was doing. Instead of being a creep, he was a high school math teacher. He ended up helping me with my homework. :cool:

I will not at all argue that.

What I will argue is people telling me what I am saying.

We're good to go, Gabby.

gabosaurus
05-15-2016, 12:12 AM
The most extreme case I have heard of was a guy wearing a robe and a Kippah being reported to security while waiting to board a plane. A woman told police the man "looked like a Muslim terrorist." And he was "writing things in a strange language." Which turned out to be Yiddish.

Guess some people can't tell their friends from their enemies. :dunno:

Gunny
05-15-2016, 12:16 AM
I'm sorry, people, but if you can't discern the difference between a math problem and Arabic, you are probably too stupid to be walking around in public.

There was a time back in my college days when I was on a plane back to SF. I was doing some homework in differential equations. The man sitting next to me kept looking at what I was doing. Instead of being a creep, he was a high school math teacher. He ended up helping me with my homework. :cool:

Guess you better stay home then, huh? You vote for Democrats. Can't get much dumber than that.

Elessar
05-15-2016, 12:22 AM
The most extreme case I have heard of was a guy wearing a robe and a Kippah being reported to security while waiting to board a plane. A woman told police the man "looked like a Muslim terrorist." And he was "writing things in a strange language." Which turned out to be Yiddish.

Guess some people can't tell their friends from their enemies. :dunno:

Old Saying: Ignorance is Bliss.

Black Diamond
05-15-2016, 01:00 AM
Guess you better stay home then, huh? You vote for Democrats. Can't get much dumber than that.

Voting 3rd party is pretty close.

fj1200
05-15-2016, 07:30 AM
Then perhaps you can tell the simple people. The majority is suffering for the actions of the minority. I'd ban all Arab Muslims from entering this country was it me.

What it explains is Pearl Harbor, 9/11 ... let's pretend it's not there.

I am. :poke: Nevertheless I agree that the majority is suffering because of the actions of a few but we generally don't convict the majority because of the actions of a few. Or so I would have believed before.


I neither said nor inferred that. Not one word about
religion was in my statement.

Trying to put words in people's mouths again FJ?

Not all proclaimed Muslims are of Middle East descent.
Not all Roman Catholics are Italian or from Europe.
See the pattern of your assumption? Baseless!

No. I asked a question which you are free to answer or free to ignore. :) I don't recall your specific stance on kicking Muslims off of planes in other threads but many have defended kicking them off just because they look suspicious but in this case it's been stated that this instance was wrong because of "ignorance" and a "busy body" and I'm trying to discern the difference between the perceived Muslim here and the actual Muslims elsewhere. So what do you think the difference is?

indago
05-15-2016, 09:48 AM
I'm trying to discern the difference between the perceived Muslim here and the actual Muslims elsewhere. So what do you think the difference is?

This guy was on a plane doing a math problem as opposed to Muslims who were not on a plane doing a math problem...

Gunny
05-15-2016, 09:59 AM
Voting 3rd party is pretty close.

I don't agree with voting 3rd party in any way, shape nor form. I have in fact preached against it for this being the 3rd election.

At the same time, I understand the quandary and frustration of those that do. Understanding it and doing it are not the same things. I understand the result of jumping off a cliff too. There is a distinction between the two.

I've just gotten tired of haggling over it.

I think though my point to the topic is that if you are going to act stupidly and suspiciously, you can count on some ignorant clod busybody to start squealing. I hold myself accountable for my actions and use common sense depending on my environment. Some people have NO clue and view things in completely skewed, biased and/or illogical ways.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
05-15-2016, 10:15 AM
I neither said nor inferred that. Not one word about
religion was in my statement.

Trying to put words in people's mouths again FJ?

Not all proclaimed Muslims are of Middle East descent.
Not all Roman Catholics are Italian or from Europe.
See the pattern of your assumption? Baseless!

Ye great teacher, teach the weak, the stupid, the confused, as its a blessing given and sometimes a blessing sent back by other means..;)--Tyr

gabosaurus
05-15-2016, 12:20 PM
http://www.ducati.org/forums/attachments/kitchen-sink/25030d1264633312-warning-atempted-thread-jacking-progress-thread-direction.jpg

indago
05-15-2016, 02:30 PM
http://www.ducati.org/forums/attachments/kitchen-sink/25030d1264633312-warning-atempted-thread-jacking-progress-thread-direction.jpg

Isn't that always the case though?

Gunny
05-15-2016, 03:18 PM
Ye great teacher, teach the weak, the stupid, the confused, as its a blessing given and sometimes a blessing sent back by other means..;)--Tyr

The weak and the stupid don't listen. I just know I don't walk into gay bars, and I don't into black bars wearing Wranglers, boots and cowboy hat. There are just some things that take a little common sense.

revelarts
05-15-2016, 03:42 PM
Whether people like it or not, profiling individuals is an essential
security and law enforcement tool.

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it might
just be a duck".

Why possibly compromise the welfare of everyone in a flight when
someone fits the image of what is known to be a terrorist that will
blow the damn plane up and kill everyone?

That's the world we live in now. Inconvenience a few to protect
the many.

Ok if folks are committed to the the Duck thing OK fine. but the problem with the "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it might just be a duck" equation is that people don't really follow it through.
they begin with if it looks like a duck, and then assume the worse from there.

They don't check the Walk, or the Quack... they simply panic and assume the worse at ONE "profiling" point.

Just because someone's dark skinned, writes "funny", wears something that looks "Muslim"... or a Seik or they're Black or they have a confederate flags plaster everywhere... doesn't mean others should assume the very worse without ANY OTHER corroborating indicators.
this is the problem.

And specifically to woman on the plane being so ignorant that she thought Math problems were a threat. SO fearful that she faked illness. well is there a cure for ignorance and fear? i wonder sometimes.

the professors comments in the article are on point.

Gunny
05-15-2016, 03:46 PM
Ok if folks are committed to the the Duck thing OK fine. but the problem with the "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it might just be a duck" equation is that people don't really follow it through.
they begin with if it looks like a duck, and then assume the worse from there.

They don't check the Walk, or the Quack... they simply panic and assume the worse at ONE "profiling" point.

Just because someone's dark skinned, writes "funny", wears something that looks "Muslim"... or a Seik or they're Black or they have a confederate flags plaster everywhere... doesn't mean others should assume the very worse without ANY OTHER corroborating indicators.
this is the problem.

And specifically to woman on the plane being so ignorant that she thought Math problems were a threat. SO fearful that she faked illness. well is there a cure for ignorance and fear? i wonder sometimes.

the professors comments in the article are on point.

Sorry bubba. Know your audience. If you look and smell like an Arab and you got your bath linen on your head? You're a f-ing duck.

Black Diamond
05-15-2016, 03:58 PM
Ok if folks are committed to the the Duck thing OK fine. but the problem with the "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it might just be a duck" equation is that people don't really follow it through.
they begin with if it looks like a duck, and then assume the worse from there.

They don't check the Walk, or the Quack... they simply panic and assume the worse at ONE "profiling" point.

Just because someone's dark skinned, writes "funny", wears something that looks "Muslim"... or a Seik or they're Black or they have a confederate flags plaster everywhere... doesn't mean others should assume the very worse without ANY OTHER corroborating indicators.
this is the problem.

And specifically to woman on the plane being so ignorant that she thought Math problems were a threat. SO fearful that she faked illness. well is there a cure for ignorance and fear? i wonder sometimes.

the professors comments in the article are on point.
It's not just about skin color.

revelarts
05-15-2016, 04:04 PM
Sorry bubba. Know your audience. If you look and smell like an Arab and you got your bath linen on your head? You're a f-ing duck.
That's the problem, "the audience" is wrong

Gunny
05-15-2016, 04:08 PM
That's the problem, "the audience" is wrong

Until the plane blows up. Then suddenly the very same audience is acting outraged and demanding someone do something. Then, when someone does something, that very same audience is bitching and whining about the attempted solution. Catch-22?

My dad is fluent in Arabic and I have 4 tours in ME. I can recognize that scribble in a second. What's an "innocent" Italian doing writing in Arabic on an airplane when the whole world is paranoid of Arabs on a plane?

revelarts
05-15-2016, 04:19 PM
Until the plane blows up. Then suddenly the very same audience is acting outraged and demanding someone do something. Then, when someone does something, that very same audience is bitching and whining about the attempted solution. Catch-22?

There were warnings of Quacks and Walks for all the other events. But the "authorities" didn't follow through as they should have on those that got through.
And a bunch of people emotionally upset demanding easy knee jerk responses for complex a problem doesn't fix it. Or Necessitate a reply.



My dad is fluent in Arabic and I have 4 tours in ME. I can recognize that scribble in a second. What's an "innocent" Italian doing writing in Arabic on an airplane when the whole world is paranoid of Arabs on a plane?
well i do understand that much of the math and the "algebra" we use today we picked up from the muslims and arabic countries. (even though some want to deny that bit of history) But from what the article says the professor was preparing for a speech he was going to give.

But are you saying that it's people should automatically be considered a terrorist if they write or speak arabic launguages at the airport?

Black Diamond
05-15-2016, 04:27 PM
There were warning of Quacks and Walks for all the other events. the "authorities" didn't follow through as they should have on those that got through.
And a bunch of people emotionally upset demanding easy knee jerk responses for complex a problem doesn't fix it. Or Necessitate a reply.


well i do understand that much of the math and the "algebra" we use today we picked up from the muslims and arabic countries. (even though some want to deny that bit of history) But from what the article says the professor was preparing for a speech he was going to give.

But are you saying that it's even someone should automatically be considered a terrorist if they write or speak arabic launguages at the airport?

Hindsight is 20:20 easy to put the pieces of the puzzle together AFTER the event happens.

Gunny
05-15-2016, 04:32 PM
There were warnings of Quacks and Walks for all the other events. But the "authorities" didn't follow through as they should have on those that got through.
And a bunch of people emotionally upset demanding easy knee jerk responses for complex a problem doesn't fix it. Or Necessitate a reply.


well i do understand that much of the math and the "algebra" we use today we picked up from the muslims and arabic countries. (even though some want to deny that bit of history) But from what the article says the professor was preparing for a speech he was going to give.

But are you saying that it's people should automatically be considered a terrorist if they write or speak arabic launguages at the airport?

That's no sh*t. Now. people like you are bitching because they do. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Russ
05-15-2016, 04:51 PM
I'm sorry, people, but if you can't discern the difference between a math problem and Arabic, you are probably too stupid to be walking around in public.


This is a good point. We shouldn't be too hard on the woman - it may be that her head has so few synapses firing that her skull literally feels numb all the time, so maybe she didn't know any better and was just doing her best to look out for terrorists. I will at least give the airline credit for handling the incident well, and give the professor credit for not trying to create a Ferguson event out of it.

revelarts
05-15-2016, 04:52 PM
Hindsight is 20:20 easy to put the pieces of the puzzle together AFTER the event happens.

No, not hindsight clear signs. FBi had Clear signs and notifications. Not just . Guys who had rags on there heads.
they had warnings from foreign countries, had Atta on a watch list PRE-911. One FBI translator said they had some info recorded. another had already arrest for suspicion. the father notified the FBi about the underwear bomber but they did nothing. The way he was boarded onto the plane at the last minute without a passport and proper papers was another sign. Finally several passengers told enough authorities for them to move onces his pants were on fire.

So yeah yeah partial and selective blindness shouldn't be redefined as hindsight being clearer.

but sure is it possible to stop ALL terror before hand , of course not. but it does no go to pretend that every person that's foreign, brown, and writes funny is by default a terrorist.

the profile has to be MUCH narrower.
that's my point.

And i think you understand that idea when placed on the other foot.
Just because someone is white and from the america doesn't mean he or she is a racist.
Should we be suspicious of ALL white? looks like a duck right? Add a confederate flag to it what now? that's SURLY a duck right? with people so concerned about racism it makes no sense for anyone to wave that around.. right?

Black Diamond
05-15-2016, 05:15 PM
No, not hindsight clear signs. FBi had Clear signs and notifications. Not just . Guys who had rags on there heads.
they had warnings from foreign countries, had Atta on a watch list PRE-911. One FBI translator said they had some info recorded. another had already arrest for suspicion. the father notified the FBi about the underwear bomber but they did nothing. The way he was boarded onto the plane at the last minute without a passport and proper papers was another sign. Finally several passengers told enough authorities for them to move onces his pants were on fire.

So yeah yeah partial and selective blindness shouldn't be redefined as hindsight being clearer.

but sure is it possible to stop ALL terror before hand , of course not. but it does no go to pretend that every person that's foreign, brown, and writes funny is by default a terrorist.

the profile has to be MUCH narrower.
that's my point.

And i think you understand that idea when placed on the other foot.
Just because someone is white and from the america doesn't mean he or she is a racist.
Should we be suspicious of ALL white? looks like a duck right? Add a confederate flag to it what now? that's SURLY a duck right? with people so concerned about racism it makes no sense for anyone to wave that around.. right?
I didn't bring up skin color.
And none of those signs are clear until after the event happened. Those pieces of information beforehand don't add up to buildings collapsing. Well maybe they do now. Now that we have the biggest piece of the puzzle: the event.

indago
05-15-2016, 05:51 PM
That's no sh*t. Now. people like you are bitching because they do. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If you can't eat it, what's the use in having it?

Gunny
05-15-2016, 06:59 PM
If you can't eat it, what's the use in having it?

You're not addressing the point of the metaphor. You can keep your cake or eat it. If you eat it, you don't have a cake anymore. Choice is yours. Just don't come crying when you eat your cake and don't have one.

Atticus Finch
05-15-2016, 07:32 PM
Until the plane blows up. Then suddenly the very same audience is acting outraged and demanding someone do something. Then, when someone does something, that very same audience is bitching and whining about the attempted solution. Catch-22?

My dad is fluent in Arabic and I have 4 tours in ME. I can recognize that scribble in a second. What's an "innocent" Italian doing writing in Arabic on an airplane when the whole world is paranoid of Arabs on a plane?Then they start the "who didn't connect the dots" blame game.One thing you can count on about liberals,they'll never ever take the blame for anything.

gabosaurus
05-15-2016, 10:19 PM
Since so many white males are mass murderers, shouldn't we be suspicious of every white male who enters a shopping mall or place of business?

Because of substandard VA facilities, many veterans don't receive the psychological help needed to control their mental problems. Many are left with PTSD or severe depressions, leaving them as ticking time bombs. Why should we allow them on planes. At least we should prohibit veterans from owning weapons. Ticking time bombs aren't really stable.

The signs are very clear on this. There have been numerous recorded instances. Shouldn't we act preemptively?

indago
05-15-2016, 11:17 PM
You're not addressing the point of the metaphor. You can keep your cake or eat it. If you eat it, you don't have a cake anymore. Choice is yours. Just don't come crying when you eat your cake and don't have one.

At a conference, held in New York City, 8 and 9 April 1938, entitled Social Security in the United State, Arthur A. Ballantine, former Under Secretary of the United States Department of Treasury; Director, American Association for Social Security, was discussing the Social Security reserves, and Congress' penchant for using those reserves for other and sundry programs of government. He noted: The present plan is merely one of eating the cake and then fancying that we still have it.

Elessar
05-16-2016, 12:12 AM
Then they start the "who didn't connect the dots" blame game.One thing you can count on about liberals,they'll never ever take the blame for anything.

I would change blame to responsibility.

Elessar
05-16-2016, 12:20 AM
Since so many white males are mass murderers, shouldn't we be suspicious of every white male who enters a shopping mall or place of business?

Because of substandard VA facilities, many veterans don't receive the psychological help needed to control their mental problems. Many are left with PTSD or severe depressions, leaving them as ticking time bombs. Why should we allow them on planes. At least we should prohibit veterans from owning weapons. Ticking time bombs aren't really stable.

The signs are very clear on this. There have been numerous recorded instances. Shouldn't we act preemptively?

Since you have no Security or Law Enforcement training or experience, you are tossing out a straw argument.

Quite a few vets with those conditions cannot recognize it themselves and don't seek help. Nobody is
going to strong-arm them into it unless something has happened, violating some law.

By your premise, should we assume all grossly fat women are stinky bitches?

Gunny
05-16-2016, 12:35 AM
Since so many white males are mass murderers, shouldn't we be suspicious of every white male who enters a shopping mall or place of business?

Because of substandard VA facilities, many veterans don't receive the psychological help needed to control their mental problems. Many are left with PTSD or severe depressions, leaving them as ticking time bombs. Why should we allow them on planes. At least we should prohibit veterans from owning weapons. Ticking time bombs aren't really stable.

The signs are very clear on this. There have been numerous recorded instances. Shouldn't we act preemptively?

Yeah. We should take away all Democrats right to vote. Look at all the wonderful sh*t you've done for us.

Black Diamond
05-16-2016, 12:45 AM
Yeah. We should take away all Democrats right to vote. Look at all the wonderful sh*t you've done for us.

You have the audacity of hope

Gunny
05-16-2016, 01:02 AM
You have the audacity of hope

Y'think? :laugh:

This is a dumb conversation to me. I saw my dad come home from Nam twice. I saw people die in the First Gulf War. I picked my baby girl up at the airport after being MedEvac'd from Iraq/ She said "daddy, they hurt me." Anyone that thinks there's any forgiveness in my ass can just forget that shit. I tried to get back in. I wanted some payback.

So I don't want to hear this argument. They are my enemy and I know them well. I don't give a f*ck if their rights are violated. I'll violate them myself. You don't f*ck with daddy's little girl. You're looking for mercy from me?

Gabby likes to talk about me and say she understands me, but she really doesn't. I'm completely merciless.

Elessar
05-16-2016, 01:32 AM
No, not hindsight clear signs. FBi had Clear signs and notifications.

You have obviously not read what I have written regarding the refusal of Intel
and Security Agencies to share information prior to 9/11.

It was not GWB's fault, nor was it Bill Clinton's. It was a condition that existed
for decades. I used to run Wants and Warrants checks, domestic checks on vessels,
checks on foreign persons or vessels, even aircraft through EPIC. If ,say, a person's
profile was to have shown "DEA Interest", I'd have to get higher authority to get the
information from them and provide it to the asset on scene.

GWB put a screeching halt to that lack of sharing and cooperation after the facts
of 9/11 were revealed. FBI knew something, ICE knew something, CBP knew something,
FAA knew something, CIA knew something, DOD knew something, NCIC knew something.

But all of that was not put into a single pot to put it all together. GWB stopped that
Mini-Empire mindset and demanded combining all efforts.

Elessar
05-16-2016, 01:41 AM
This profiling argument reminds me of something that was in a Dirty Harry movie.

Harry was admonished for shooting a guy several months before. His reply was
(paraphrased, because I cannot remember the entirety) "When you see a naked man
with a hard-on and a butcher knife chasing a woman down a dark alley, you can
bet he was not there collecting for the Red Cross".

Gunny
05-16-2016, 01:44 AM
This profiling argument reminds me of something that was in a Dirty Harry movie.

Harry was admonished for shooting a guy several months before. His reply was
(paraphrased, because I cannot remember the entirety) "When you see a naked man
with a hard-on and a butcher knife chasing a woman down a dark alley, you can
bet he was not there collecting for the Red Cross".

Ain't it kind of funny how all the "experts" on this sh*t ain't ever been in it?

Elessar
05-16-2016, 01:49 AM
Ain't it kind of funny how all the "experts" on this sh*t ain't ever been in it?

It is both funny and sad.

Sad they will not listen to those that have 'Been There, Done That!'

fj1200
05-16-2016, 10:07 AM
This guy was on a plane doing a math problem as opposed to Muslims who were not on a plane doing a math problem...

So we're down to Muslims and math problems. Hmm...

fj1200
05-16-2016, 10:09 AM
Ye great teacher, teach the weak, the stupid, the confused, as its a blessing given and sometimes a blessing sent back by other means..;)--Tyr

Your still running like a passive-aggressive little girl I see. That's pretty much all you've got. :slap:

gabosaurus
05-16-2016, 11:33 AM
Gabby likes to talk about me and say she understands me, but she really doesn't. I'm completely merciless.

Gunny, who started the wars? Why were they started?
Politicians start wars for their own purposes. Because their kids are never going to the front lines. It's the grunts and their families who suffer.
The politicians, lobbyists and generals are conferring and patting each other on the back while the real soldiers return with PTSD and lost limbs.

You are not merciless. You are a veteran and a father and a grandfather. I am sure you have a lot of compassion for the right people.

revelarts
05-16-2016, 11:50 AM
Y'think? :laugh:
This is a dumb conversation to me. I saw my dad come home from Nam twice. I saw people die in the First Gulf War. I picked my baby girl up at the airport after being MedEvac'd from Iraq/ She said "daddy, they hurt me." Anyone that thinks there's any forgiveness in my ass can just forget that shit. I tried to get back in. I wanted some payback.
So I don't want to hear this argument. They are my enemy and I know them well. I don't give a f*ck if their rights are violated. I'll violate them myself. You don't f*ck with daddy's little girl. You're looking for mercy from me?
Gabby likes to talk about me and say she understands me, but she really doesn't. I'm completely merciless.

SO OK you don't want to do the reasonable thing. or the lawful thing. and you personally intuitively generically emotionally "KNOW" that "THEY" are "the enemy."
And you want us all to just go with that. all muslim or brown skin or rag wearing people are "them" and we should violate their rights.
Well OK. I really don't want to hear that excuse for sloppy piss poor scatter shot terrorist defense work.


You have obviously not read what I have written regarding the refusal of Intel
and Security Agencies to share information prior to 9/11.

It was not GWB's fault, nor was it Bill Clinton's. It was a condition that existed
for decades. I used to run Wants and Warrants checks, domestic checks on vessels,
checks on foreign persons or vessels, even aircraft through EPIC. If ,say, a person's
profile was to have shown "DEA Interest", I'd have to get higher authority to get the
information from them and provide it to the asset on scene.

GWB put a screeching halt to that lack of sharing and cooperation after the facts
of 9/11 were revealed. FBI knew something, ICE knew something, CBP knew something,
FAA knew something, CIA knew something, DOD knew something, NCIC knew something.

But all of that was not put into a single pot to put it all together. GWB stopped that
Mini-Empire mindset and demanded combining all efforts.
I probably didn't read your writing about the refusal of agencies to cooperate with each other. But i've read a bit of that on my own from articles, listened to the congressional hearings on it and checked out a book or 2.... All directly quoting, written by or spoken from the mouths of those people IN those agencies doing terrorist and 911 investigations.

so please drop the accusation about I (or others) who don't listen to people who've actually "done it". When that's exactly what I base my POV on. Those who've done Exactly That, not something LIKE IT. But actually investigated terrorism pre and post 911. I can appreciate other Law enforcement's and military's insight and experience on the subject but my primary sources tend to be mainly those closest to the actual work.

And part of what they say is that even WITHEN their own agency they where often stonewalled. The FBI in particular had several lines into the plot and FBI field agents we're basically told to not pursue further investigation. In one case there was an actual spy in the FBI translation dept that covered up some info. While another translator which ran across a different line of intel was not allowed to forward his info to field agents because of inner departmental management BS. In the M.E. the law was being broken by CIA who were 'encoraging' the consulates in Jetta and elsewhere to allow "friendly terrorist" into the U.S. to train. Some VISA office personel reported and tried to do his job and deny entry to guys who obviously didn't make the cut to receive U.S VISAs and was told by his upper echelon to STFU and grant the VISAs. There was inner dept communication to a point ..but bad decisions. AFTER the fact of 911 some of the info was even 'overlooked' so as not to make various depts look bad. The DIA even destroyed Terabites worth of it's intel on Atta and others from top secret investigations there. This isn't just a cross department issue. it a inner departmental CYA issues as well. And Bush and the congress supposedly made it so the cross talk of info is suppose to be better but from reports by those THAT DO THE TERRORIST WORK, they say it's still can be very spotty and selective. Plus the CYA, and poor/corrupt executive management decision still persist.
as well as other incomprehensible weirdness that smells of treason.


This profiling argument reminds me of something that was in a Dirty Harry movie.
Harry was admonished for shooting a guy several months before. His reply was
(paraphrased, because I cannot remember the entirety) "When you see a naked man
with a hard-on and a butcher knife chasing a woman down a dark alley, you can
bet he was not there collecting for the Red Cross".

Ok again in this analogy you've got MULTIPLE points of Info. Not just 1.
He's not JUST a man with a hard on.

He's naked... hard on... with butcher knife... chasing a woman... dark ally..
Unusual appearance.... ...atypical physical state... carrying a weapon.... aggressive actions... directed at a potential victim... in a place that might help hide the crime.

He's not just some guy who speaks, writes or looks 'muslim' at the airport.
That guy might actually really be collecting for the red cross or maybe even just raveling for business or pleasure... couldn't he?


Ain't it kind of funny how all the "experts" on this sh*t ain't ever been in it?

It is both funny and sad.
Sad they will not listen to those that have 'Been There, Done That!'
As i've said, I base all of my views on this issue on those that have been there and did EXACTLY that. As well as constitutional lawyers reading and practice of the law. But maybe you guys could clear something up. Elesaar it seems you and gunny are saying 2 different things ..at times at least. You seem to be saying that investigators can't follow up on legit terrorist/criminal suspect because in a "REAL" investigation you often don't have enough info to really make a clear determination of a threat/wrongdoing. Gunny seems to be saying we should suspect "them" ... all muslim looking people.... and violate their rights willy nilly , because he "knows" who the enemy is.

so how are 2 really in agreement here?
Is it that you agree that ALL muslim LOOKING (writing sounding) people are to be considered guilty until proven innocent?
That that's enough DUCK for you and authorities should act JUST on that fact?
Does just looking Muslim equal NAKED+HARDON+KNIFE+CHASINGWOMEN?

Elessar
05-16-2016, 12:43 PM
Rev...

Your protests are way off tangent. Don't over-complicate what is being said.

There are quite a few times that a responder has to make a split-second decision,
based on circumstances.

If somebody or something fits the profile, based on past experience, there may
be a need to take immediate action rather than let the event unfold. Standing back
and contemplating is not always the best option.

Sometimes Immediate Action is required to prevent a potential bad situation from getting worse.

There is no fine line between 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'guilty until proven
innocent' IF the present condition is in extremis. It's just that simple.

Gunny
05-16-2016, 12:50 PM
As i've said, I base all of my views on this issue on those that have been there and did EXACTLY that. As well as constitutional lawyers reading and practice of the law. But maybe you guys could clear something up. Elesaar it seems you and gunny are saying 2 different things ..at times at least. You seem to be saying that investigators can't follow up on legit terrorist/criminal suspect because in a "REAL" investigation you often don't have enough info to really make a clear determination of a threat/wrongdoing. Gunny seems to be saying we should suspect "them" ... all muslim looking people.... and violate their rights willy nilly , because he "knows" who the enemy is.

so how are 2 really in agreement here?
Is it that you agree that ALL muslim LOOKING (writing sounding) people are to be considered guilty until proven innocent?
That that's enough DUCK for you and authorities should act JUST on that fact?
Does just looking Muslim equal NAKED+HARDON+KNIFE+CHASINGWOMEN?

Your thinking is convoluted. As I mentioned way back when, you're in a thread with vets. We ain't accountants who had 9-5 jobs I could care less what you say about me, but get my story straight when you quote me. I said Arabs, not "Muslims". The Muslims ones are just easier to identify. Ask the older vets how they feel about gooks and commies. I spent most of my career learning to know my enemy, watching him when I had to. He took years out of my life away from my wife and kids because his simple ass couldn't just act civilized. Laying in the sand in the desert watching through a scope for days that never end. Drinking water that tasted like plastic because when that cost-cutting plastic canteen heats up, it's over. Eating absolute sh*t.

Dealing with the little bastards at the bazzar. You can see it in their eyes they hate you but they'll take your money. And I see that same look when I've had to deal with them back here in the world. You never know which one is going to blow himself up just to take you with him. And they're cowards. I lost friends in Beirut, Kuwait and Iraq because of their cowardice. I respect their capability but I do not respect them nor their cause. They don't fight like men. They go into a Jewish wedding or market full of civilian women and children and blow themselves up. They take over airliners and fly them into civilian targets (WTC). Look at ISIS. They attack noncombatants because of the vacuum Obama left.

I won't apologize. I still sleep with one eye half open and if you drop a needle I'm up. They are the enemy. Period.

Why is it people like you have to wait for something to happen like people being murdered or maimed before you want to act? Then you're all outraged and want something done. Doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't bring the dead back to life. Yet you cry at preemptive measures. So which one of us is it that's sending 2 messages?

gabosaurus
05-16-2016, 01:02 PM
I won't apologize. I still sleep with one eye half open and if you drop a needle I'm up. They are the enemy. Period.

Why is it people like you have to wait for something to happen like people being murdered or maimed before you want to act? Then you're all outraged and want something done. Doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't bring the dead back to life. Yet you cry at preemptive measures. So which one of us is it that's sending 2 messages?

Gunny, dear, you are not on the battlefield any longer. You are, presumably, in a safe home in a safe neighborhood. There is no more reason to pound sand or sleep with one eye half open.
Like you have admitted before, you are a ticking time bomb. Please don't wait for yourself to go off.

Gunny
05-16-2016, 01:10 PM
Gunny, dear, you are not on the battlefield any longer. You are, presumably, in a safe home in a safe neighborhood. There is no more reason to pound sand or sleep with one eye half open.
Like you have admitted before, you are a ticking time bomb. Please don't wait for yourself to go off.

Ridiculous. I'm no ticking time bomb. I just don't half-ass things when it's time to get it done.

And I beg to disagree about the battlefield comment. Just a different kind of battle. One for the honor and integrity of what's left of this nation. We're in a civil war. Just a quiet one without shots being fired.

gabosaurus
05-16-2016, 01:14 PM
Ridiculous. I'm no ticking time bomb. I just don't half-ass things when it's time to get it done.

And I beg to disagree about the battlefield comment. Just a different kind of battle. One for the honor and integrity of what's left of this nation. We're in a civil war. Just a quiet one without shots being fired.

You are retired. There is nothing more for you to do except continue to be a good father and grandfather.
There is no war. Except for the one that you are fighting in your head. That is my point altogether.
The best thing you can do is maintain your personal honor and integrity. There is nothing you can do about anyone else.

Black Diamond
05-16-2016, 01:16 PM
Ridiculous. I'm no ticking time bomb. I just don't half-ass things when it's time to get it done.

And I beg to disagree about the battlefield comment. Just a different kind of battle. One for the honor and integrity of what's left of this nation. We're in a civil war. Just a quiet one without shots being fired.

How long will it stay quiet?

fj1200
05-16-2016, 01:17 PM
Rev...

Your protests are way off tangent. Don't over-complicate what is being said.

There are quite a few times that a responder has to make a split-second decision,
based on circumstances.

If somebody or something fits the profile, based on past experience, there may
be a need to take immediate action rather than let the event unfold. Standing back
and contemplating is not always the best option.

Sometimes Immediate Action is required to prevent a potential bad situation from getting worse.

There is no fine line between 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'guilty until proven
innocent' IF the present condition is in extremis. It's just that simple.

What's the profile?

Gunny
05-16-2016, 01:27 PM
You are retired. There is nothing more for you to do except continue to be a good father and grandfather.
There is no war. Except for the one that you are fighting in your head. That is my point altogether.
The best thing you can do is maintain your personal honor and integrity. There is nothing you can do about anyone else.

And while I hate quoting this idiot, I WILL quote the author of the book which I read long before the movie First Blood. " You don't just turn it off". I ain't got a light switch attached to me.

Your point is ignoring the obvious. Purposefully. Being obtuse. I realize you think you can read people, and you aren't bad at it, but you're out of your league. You can't read me. Which I find a little weird since I've put exactly how my brain calculates on the board more than once. The world's a chess board.

Elessar
05-16-2016, 01:54 PM
What's the profile?

What's the incident or condition?

Gunny
05-16-2016, 02:03 PM
How long will it stay quiet?

Ever seen a pot that boiling and the lid was dancing around and stuff leaking out? I'd say that's where we're at. Something's got to give. You've got a serious math problem here though. The right itself is divided. But we all can't stand the left. So let's learn from history.

The US Civil War was based on division. However, the states rights issue is what hurt the South. The States, not the CSA were in charge of their armies, people, money and agriculture. The very thing they were fight for is what doomed them.

Same now. We vastly out-number the left; yet, they present a consolidated front while we fight among ourselves. Same story, different day.

Black Diamond
05-16-2016, 02:17 PM
Ever seen a pot that boiling and the lid was dancing around and stuff leaking out? I'd say that's where we're at. Something's got to give. You've got a serious math problem here though. The right itself is divided. But we all can't stand the left. So let's learn from history.

The US Civil War was based on division. However, the states rights issue is what hurt the South. The States, not the CSA were in charge of their armies, people, money and agriculture. The very thing they were fight for is what doomed them.

Same now. We vastly out-number the left; yet, they present a consolidated front while we fight among ourselves. Same story, different day.
Some say we are more divided than any time since the 1960s.

Black Diamond
05-16-2016, 02:20 PM
Some say we are more divided than any time since the 1960s.

But you're saying 1860s.

Gunny
05-16-2016, 02:24 PM
Gunny, who started the wars? Why were they started?
Politicians start wars for their own purposes. Because their kids are never going to the front lines. It's the grunts and their families who suffer.
The politicians, lobbyists and generals are conferring and patting each other on the back while the real soldiers return with PTSD and lost limbs.

You are not merciless. You are a veteran and a father and a grandfather. I am sure you have a lot of compassion for the right people.

Let's count them. The US Civil War a leftwinger. WWI. A Democrat. WWII a Democrat. Korean War a Democrat. Vietnam War a Democrat. The last one we won was under Bush 1. Who has created a vacuum from Hell so ISIS can move in? Democrat.

What do you know about PTSD and or injured vets? Now you sound like rev trying to tell me who my enemies are. Sure I have compassion for my blood kin. I can turn that shit off in a heartbeat when facing an enemy. My job was not empathy, second-guessing nor giving a damn. It's you or me. And I ain't clouding my mind with a bunch of BS political crap while I'm doing it.

And FYI, I learned that from my Okinawan sensei who was the most peaceful man I've ever met. He beat my ass a lot though. I don't go starting crap. I'm just more than ready if you do.

Gunny
05-16-2016, 02:33 PM
SO OK you don't want to do the reasonable thing. or the lawful thing. and you personally intuitively generically emotionally "KNOW" that "THEY" are "the enemy."
And you want us all to just go with that. all muslim or brown skin or rag wearing people are "them" and we should violate their rights.
Well OK. I really don't want to hear that excuse for sloppy piss poor scatter shot terrorist defense work.


I probably didn't read your writing about the refusal of agencies to cooperate with each other. But i've read a bit of that on my own from articles, listened to the congressional hearings on it and checked out a book or 2.... All directly quoting, written by or spoken from the mouths of those people IN those agencies doing terrorist and 911 investigations.

so please drop the accusation about I (or others) who don't listen to people who've actually "done it". When that's exactly what I base my POV on. Those who've done Exactly That, not something LIKE IT. But actually investigated terrorism pre and post 911. I can appreciate other Law enforcement's and military's insight and experience on the subject but my primary sources tend to be mainly those closest to the actual work.

And part of what they say is that even WITHEN their own agency they where often stonewalled. The FBI in particular had several lines into the plot and FBI field agents we're basically told to not pursue further investigation. In one case there was an actual spy in the FBI translation dept that covered up some info. While another translator which ran across a different line of intel was not allowed to forward his info to field agents because of inner departmental management BS. In the M.E. the law was being broken by CIA who were 'encoraging' the consulates in Jetta and elsewhere to allow "friendly terrorist" into the U.S. to train. Some VISA office personel reported and tried to do his job and deny entry to guys who obviously didn't make the cut to receive U.S VISAs and was told by his upper echelon to STFU and grant the VISAs. There was inner dept communication to a point ..but bad decisions. AFTER the fact of 911 some of the info was even 'overlooked' so as not to make various depts look bad. The DIA even destroyed Terabites worth of it's intel on Atta and others from top secret investigations there. This isn't just a cross department issue. it a inner departmental CYA issues as well. And Bush and the congress supposedly made it so the cross talk of info is suppose to be better but from reports by those THAT DO THE TERRORIST WORK, they say it's still can be very spotty and selective. Plus the CYA, and poor/corrupt executive management decision still persist.
as well as other incomprehensible weirdness that smells of treason.



Ok again in this analogy you've got MULTIPLE points of Info. Not just 1.
He's not JUST a man with a hard on.

He's naked... hard on... with butcher knife... chasing a woman... dark ally..
Unusual appearance.... ...atypical physical state... carrying a weapon.... aggressive actions... directed at a potential victim... in a place that might help hide the crime.

He's not just some guy who speaks, writes or looks 'muslim' at the airport.
That guy might actually really be collecting for the red cross or maybe even just raveling for business or pleasure... couldn't he?



As i've said, I base all of my views on this issue on those that have been there and did EXACTLY that. As well as constitutional lawyers reading and practice of the law. But maybe you guys could clear something up. Elesaar it seems you and gunny are saying 2 different things ..at times at least. You seem to be saying that investigators can't follow up on legit terrorist/criminal suspect because in a "REAL" investigation you often don't have enough info to really make a clear determination of a threat/wrongdoing. Gunny seems to be saying we should suspect "them" ... all muslim looking people.... and violate their rights willy nilly , because he "knows" who the enemy is.

so how are 2 really in agreement here?
Is it that you agree that ALL muslim LOOKING (writing sounding) people are to be considered guilty until proven innocent?
That that's enough DUCK for you and authorities should act JUST on that fact?
Does just looking Muslim equal NAKED+HARDON+KNIFE+CHASINGWOMEN?

First off, what is this elongated wall of words replying to me when you know I ain't going to read them?

I'll make this simple ... I'd go into combat with elessar because he'd do his job. You on the other hand would be sitting around with some lame ass questioning the mission.

We don't have to believe the same things religiously nor politically. You're making a mountain out of a molehill and it's a deflection. And YOU have never been there. You don't know how we lived. You'd be crying your ass off. We get the job done. If you don't know and understand your enemy, you die. That simple.

Gunny
05-16-2016, 02:34 PM
Rev...

Your protests are way off tangent. Don't over-complicate what is being said.

There are quite a few times that a responder has to make a split-second decision,
based on circumstances.

If somebody or something fits the profile, based on past experience, there may
be a need to take immediate action rather than let the event unfold. Standing back
and contemplating is not always the best option.

Sometimes Immediate Action is required to prevent a potential bad situation from getting worse.

There is no fine line between 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'guilty until proven
innocent' IF the present condition is in extremis. It's just that simple.

Got to spread it around.

Gunny
05-16-2016, 02:41 PM
But you're saying 1860s.

Try the 1930s if you like. Or the 1820s. Jackson vs JQ Adams was one of the nastiest campaigns ever. And you have to keep it in context with the time periods. The parties have completely switched sides on issues. Lincoln would be a Dem nowadays. So would Nixon. He was quite socialist.

I'm good at history, dude. :)

gabosaurus
05-16-2016, 05:31 PM
What do you know about PTSD and or injured vets?

A lot more than you would think.
First of all, PTSD is not confined to military veterans. It is very common among victims of violent crimes, survivors of natural disasters and kids who come from abusive homes.
When I was in grad school, my psychology training exposed me a gamut of conditions. I talked with injured vets, hurricane and tornado survivors, battered children and mentally incapacitated adults.
You might be surprised at how many vets are still fighting the war out there. Their bodies might be back with friends and families, but their minds never returned from the battlefield.

Gunny
05-16-2016, 06:08 PM
A lot more than you would think.
First of all, PTSD is not confined to military veterans. It is very common among victims of violent crimes, survivors of natural disasters and kids who come from abusive homes.
When I was in grad school, my psychology training exposed me a gamut of conditions. I talked with injured vets, hurricane and tornado survivors, battered children and mentally incapacitated adults.
You might be surprised at how many vets are still fighting the war out there. Their bodies might be back with friends and families, but their minds never returned from the battlefield.

You don't read much, do you? I have constantly said over the years PTSD isn't restricted to military personnel. Try looking at more posts than you just want to happen upon. I know I have it. Big deal. I can let it control me or get over it. I compartmentalize.

But, who you have talked to and what you've read does NOT make you my peer on the topic. And remember, you asked. Or accused. Whichever. So I'm not preaching when I say my faith in the Lord is what has saved me. Not some goof in flowered scrubs offering coffee and doughnuts. The Lord is with me at 2AM. Those people ain't.

indago
05-16-2016, 06:18 PM
I don't go starting crap.

http://mockforums.net/images/smilies/26oct2011/bullshit.gif

Gunny
05-16-2016, 06:25 PM
http://mockforums.net/images/smilies/26oct2011/bullshit.gif

You don't know anything about me, jackass. You would if you bothered to read and comprehend. There's a difference between starting shit and ending it.

Elessar
05-16-2016, 06:41 PM
You are retired. There is nothing more for you to do except continue to be a good father and grandfather.
There is no war. Except for the one that you are fighting in your head. That is my point altogether.
The best thing you can do is maintain your personal honor and integrity. There is nothing you can do about anyone else.

This a bit personal between you two.

But as friends to you both, I say Gabby that you are most gracious in addressing
him in this manner. Even though you have clashed with each other.

I also add that Gunny has a warrior's dignity as well as honor and integrity.

To Gunny...take a pat on the back when given. You deserve it more than you realize.

Now I butt out between you two.:salute:

Gunny
05-16-2016, 07:11 PM
This a bit personal between you two.

But as friends to you both, I say Gabby that you are most gracious in addressing
him in this manner. Even though you have clashed with each other.

I also add that Gunny has a warrior's dignity as well as honor and integrity.

To Gunny...take a pat on the back when given. You deserve it more than you realize.

Now I butt out between you two.:salute:

You're kidding, right? Gabby and I fuss all the time. This is nothing new. I don't think anything about it. I actually like gabby. She gives me crap. I give her crap. Tomorrow's another day.

Elessar
05-16-2016, 07:24 PM
You're kidding, right? Gabby and I fuss all the time. This is nothing new. I don't think anything about it. I actually like gabby. She gives me crap. I give her crap. Tomorrow's another day.

I like her too, even though we do argue. Sometimes another's views
will wake up more thought in us all.

I have to wonder how many of these whining protesters in this thread have
attended a Police Pistol course, or Judgmental Shooting course.

In Judgmental Shooting, you "MIGHT" have 3 seconds to pull the trigger
or haul up. The scenario's are varied.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
05-16-2016, 07:47 PM
There were warnings of Quacks and Walks for all the other events. But the "authorities" didn't follow through as they should have on those that got through.
And a bunch of people emotionally upset demanding easy knee jerk responses for complex a problem doesn't fix it. Or Necessitate a reply.


well i do understand that much of the math and the "algebra" we use today we picked up from the muslims and arabic countries. (even though some want to deny that bit of history) But from what the article says the professor was preparing for a speech he was going to give.

But are you saying that it's people should automatically be considered a terrorist if they write or speak arabic launguages at the airport?




well i do understand that much of the math and the "algebra" we use today we picked up from the muslims and arabic countries. (even though some want to deny that bit of history)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That damn lie has been proven to be a damn lie.....
Algebra was known and used centuries before the child raping bastard was even born!!
Islam conquered a lot of nations and then took credit for inventions, previous knowledge etc. of those obliterated NATIONS..
READ SOME DAMN HISTORY BEFORE YOU SPOUT OFF THAT MUSLIM APPEASING SHIT..



http://gatesofvienna.net/2013/08/how-muslims-did-not-invent-algebra/

How Muslims Did Not Invent Algebra
by Enza Ferreri

Continuing on the theme of what Muslims did — or more likely did not do — for the world, there is a widespread misconception that they “invented algebra”. Maybe this fallacy is due to the fact that “algebra” is a word of Arabic origin, but historical questions are not solved by etymological answers.

Yes, the English word “algebra” derives from the Arabic. So does “sugar” (from the Arabic “sukkar”) but that doesn’t mean that Muslims invented sugar.

The word “algebra” stems from the Arabic word “al-jabr”, from the name of the treatise Book on Addition and Subtraction after the Method of the Indians written by the 9th-century Persian mathematician Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi, who translated, formalized and commented on ancient Indian and Greek works.

It is even doubtful whether al-Khwarizmi was really a Muslim. The Wikipedia entry on him says:

Regarding al-Khwārizmī’s religion, Toomer writes:

Another epithet given to him by al-Ṭabarī, “al-Majūsī,” would seem to indicate that he was an adherent of the old Zoroastrian religion. This would still have been possible at that time for a man of Iranian origin, but the pious preface to al-Khwārizmī’s Algebra shows that he was an orthodox Muslim, so al-Ṭabarī’s epithet could mean no more than that his forebears, and perhaps he in his youth, had been Zoroastrians.

In all likelihood he was a Zoroastrian who was forced to convert (or die) by Muslim rulers because Persia had been conquered by the Islamic armies, and that was what Muslims did (and still do wherever they can). That could easily explain the “pious preface to al-Khwarizmi’s Algebra”.

Wikipedia also says:


In Renaissance Europe, he [al-Khwarizmi] was considered the original inventor of algebra, although it is now known that his work is based on older Indian or Greek sources.

There is archaeological evidence that the roots of algebra date back to the ancient Babylonians, and were then developed in Egypt and Greece. The Chinese and especially the Indians also advanced algebra and wrote important works on the subject.

The Alexandrian Greek mathematician Diophantus (3rd century AD), sometimes called “the father of algebra”, wrote a series of books, called Arithmetica, dealing with solving algebraic equations. Another Hellenistic mathematician who contributed to the progress of algebra was Hero of Alexandria, as did the Indian Brahmagupta in his book Brahmasphutasiddhanta.

With the Italian Leonardo Pisano (known as Leonardo Fibonacci, as he was the son of Bonacci) in the 13th century, another Italian mathematician, Girolamo Cardano, author in 1545 of the 40-chapter masterpiece Ars magna (“The great art”), and the late-16th-century French mathematician François Viète, we move from the prehistory of algebra to the beginning of the classical discipline of algebra.

Even Bertrand Russell, who in no way is a critic of the Islamic world, writes in the Second Volume of The History of Western Philosophy [pdf]:

Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators. Speaking generally, the views of the more scientific philosophers come from Aristotle and the Neoplatonists in logic and metaphysics, from Galen in medicine, from Greek and Indian sources in mathematics and astronomy, and among mystics religious philosophy has also an admixture of old Persian beliefs. Writers in Arabic showed some originality in mathematics and in chemistry — in the latter case, as an incidental result of alchemical researches.

Mohammedan civilization in its great days was admirable in the arts and in many technical ways, but it showed no capacity for independent speculation in theoretical matters. Its importance, which must not be underrated, is as a transmitter. Between ancient and modern European civilization, the dark ages intervened. The Mohammedans and the Byzantines, while lacking the intellectual energy required for innovation, preserved the apparatus of civilization — education, books, and learned leisure. Both stimulated the West when it emerged from barbarism — the Mohammedans chiefly in the thirteenth century, the Byzantines chiefly in the fifteenth. In each case the stimulus produced new thought better than any produced by the transmitters — in the one case scholasticism, in the other the Renaissance (which however had other causes also).

You can see that to say that Muslims invented or pioneered algebra is a gross misrepresentation.

In conclusion, there have been various attempts at historical revisionism concerning Islamic contributions to the world. These attempts are more political propaganda than academic scholarship. After all, taqiyya, lying to the infidels to advance Allah’s cause, is permitted, and even prescribed, to Muslims. Jihad does not consist only of violent aggression or terror attacks: it can be gradual, by stealth, through indoctrination and false reassurance.

Enza Ferreri is an Italian-born London writer and the Press Officer for Liberty GB. She blogs at www.enzaferreri.blogspot.co.uk.

For her previous articles and translations, see the Enza Ferreri Archives.
This entry was posted in Counterjihad, Europe, Far East, Middle East, North Africa, PC/MC, Religion, South Asia by Baron Bodissey. Bookmark the permalink.

WHEN I REPLY, I DONT MAKE CRAP UP.....-TYR

Kathianne
05-16-2016, 07:49 PM
I cleaned up the thread a bit, moved to the 'lovin' thread for I and G.

revelarts
05-16-2016, 08:06 PM
Rev...

Your protests are way off tangent. Don't over-complicate what is being said.

There are quite a few times that a responder has to make a split-second decision,
based on circumstances.

If somebody or something fits the profile, based on past experience, there may
be a need to take immediate action rather than let the event unfold. Standing back
and contemplating is not always the best option.

Sometimes Immediate Action is required to prevent a potential bad situation from getting worse.

There is no fine line between 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'guilty until proven
innocent' IF the present condition is in extremis. It's just that simple.
But my points and questions were uncomplicated.
So, do you make a "Split Second" decision to arrest or ground a plane based on the fact that an "Arab" or "Muslims" is speaking his language on the plane or at the airport?

Is being Arab EQUAL to "NAKED+HARDON+KNIFE+CHASINGWOMEN?
that's not a complicated or off tangent question is it?

To get into the complicated areas yes even you made the distinction between long term investigations with intel agencies sharing info etc..
But there as well, the same simple principals apply, as far as i can tell.
there should be MORE to go on than "they are Arabs" ..."She's writing something i don't understand"... "he's speaking a foreign language"... ..."She's at the airport".

Any of those one or 2 points are legit to consider generally but not points to take any serious action on.
Simple bottom line, there needs to be MORE negative indicators in a split second action scenario OR a long term one don't you think?

Gunny
05-16-2016, 09:24 PM
But my points and questions were uncomplicated.
So, do you make a "Split Second" decision to arrest or ground a plane based on the fact that an "Arab" or "Muslims" is speaking his language on the plane or at the airport?

Is being Arab EQUAL to "NAKED+HARDON+KNIFE+CHASINGWOMEN?
that's not a complicated or off tangent question is it?

To get into the complicated areas yes even you made the distinction between long term investigations with intel agencies sharing info etc..
But there as well, the same simple principals apply, as far as i can tell.
there should be MORE to go on than "they are Arabs" ..."She's writing something i don't understand"... "he's speaking a foreign language"... ..."She's at the airport".

Any of those one or 2 points are legit to consider generally but not points to take any serious action on.
Simple bottom line, there needs to be MORE negative indicators in a split second action scenario OR a long term one don't you think?

What is uncomplicated about Monday Morning quarterbacking? I never had that luxury. I had to make a decision on the spot. I didn't get to log onto an internet message board and get a consensus from people who don't know sh*t. No one in command in the field does.

There is no "more" when rounds start flying. There's here and now.

Elessar
05-16-2016, 10:52 PM
But my points and questions were uncomplicated.
So, do you make a "Split Second" decision to arrest or ground a plane based on the fact that an "Arab" or "Muslims" is speaking his language on the plane or at the airport?
<snip>
Simple bottom line, there needs to be MORE negative indicators in a split second action scenario OR a long term one don't you think?

Since you have not, obviously, been in a split second decision matrix, do not have a bit
of experience, yet would rather question and condemn those that have.

You're paddling against the current with all of these 'What ifs?".</snip>

revelarts
05-16-2016, 11:37 PM
Since you have not, obviously, been in a split second decision matrix, do not have a bit
of experience, yet would rather question and condemn those that have.

You're paddling against the current with all of these 'What ifs?".

look I'm being up front with you, but you seem to just want to say i'm wrong just because I don't have "experience" OK fine. (even though that response in no way by default means that what i've said is wrong. Especially since other who are in the field have said the same as I.)
But neither you or gunny are willing to say what's right.

Simple question Elessar.
Do you make a "Split Second" decision to arrest someone or ground a plane based only on the facts that they are "Arab" or "Muslims", are speaking a foreign language on the plane or at the airport?
So what is your experienced opinion here?
Or are you saying you can't answer that because in REAL police and military work you never consider possible hypotheticals. you never train or think about "what ifs"?
we both know that's not true.

And BTW have you ever heard of anyone in the military or police... even with experience... that have been questioned, 2nd guessed, retrained or fired by others in the field for making bad/mistaken/wrong split decisions?

Kathianne
05-17-2016, 12:00 AM
I've cleaned up the posts that continued after the last. Next post in that vein will result in thread ban.

Elessar
05-17-2016, 12:26 AM
I've cleaned up the posts that continued after the last. Next post in that vein will result in thread ban.





Aye, M'Lady. Standing down.

Kathianne
05-17-2016, 12:28 AM
Aye, M'Lady. Standing down.

Thank you, though it was pretty clear you stumbled into the fray. Gunny has kept trying to get it to stop. Hopefully now it will.

Can't let a decent thread all end up in cage.

Elessar
05-17-2016, 12:33 AM
Thank you, though it was pretty clear you stumbled into the fray. Gunny has kept trying to get it to stop. Hopefully now it will.

Can't let a decent thread all end up in cage.

You're gracious....I was trying as well being a non-staff.
Such are Forums!

Gunny
05-17-2016, 01:32 AM
You're gracious....I was trying as well being a non-staff.
Such are Forums!

I can't mod threads I am a participant in. Simple as that. I ask another mod to look. Their decision. And I really don't know what you're talking about yet. My computer decided to upgrade to Windows 10 without asking me. So I;m currently lost in the sauce. I'm going to have to figure all this bullsh*t out.

fj1200
05-17-2016, 10:54 AM
What's the incident or condition?

Isn't it obvious in this thread?

fj1200
05-17-2016, 10:56 AM
Since you have not, obviously, been in a split second decision matrix, do not have a bit
of experience, yet would rather question and condemn those that have.

You're paddling against the current with all of these 'What ifs?".

What is the split second decision matrix here?

Elessar
05-17-2016, 12:36 PM
I can't mod threads I am a participant in. Simple as that. I ask another mod to look. Their decision. And I really don't know what you're talking about yet. My computer decided to upgrade to Windows 10 without asking me. So I;m currently lost in the sauce. I'm going to have to figure all this bullsh*t out.

I am not impressed with W 10. I may go back to W 7.

Elessar
05-17-2016, 12:40 PM
What is the split second decision matrix here?

I was asked to Stand Down by a Mod and I will honor that.
So no further replies about this scuffle from me.

fj1200
05-17-2016, 01:23 PM
I was asked to Stand Down by a Mod and I will honor that.
So no further replies about this scuffle from me.

This isn't a scuffle, it's a discussion, a dialectic process if you will. Your argument seems to rest on kicking people off of a plane is a split-second decision and profiling on the plane leads to a superior outcome. Both of those are false IMO.

Gunny
05-17-2016, 01:30 PM
What is the split second decision matrix here?

There's a LOT to a split second decision. You have to take the whole thing in. I would have made a different decision but I am trained to make those decisions. First, I can recognize Arabic with my eyes closed. Second, I know the difference between math and chemistry equations. Third, I can spot a nosy old biddy from a 1000 yards. My grandmother used to hang out with them. I can also speak Spanish which means I can have a rudimentary convo with an Italian.

On the other side of the coin remember the Marine they tried to fry (and the left DID fry in the media) for shooting that guy that wouldn't produce his hands? I'd have shot him too. I'm in a hot fire zone tell you to produce your hands and you're fumbling under the blanket? Too bad for you.

And this isn't restricted to the military. First responders have to make these decisions. The Monday Morning Quarterbacking crap is fine. For what it is. But to judge people for their decisions that are in the mix is BS unless they commit a crime.

Gunny
05-17-2016, 01:34 PM
I was asked to Stand Down by a Mod and I will honor that.
So no further replies about this scuffle from me.


This isn't a scuffle, it's a discussion, a dialectic process if you will. Your argument seems to rest on kicking people off of a plane is a split-second decision and profiling on the plane leads to a superior outcome. Both of those are false IMO.

I will say this, then it's done. The thread was being derailed. It's a good discussion between those of us that can discuss the issue and I think we were having a good discussion. I had another mod look at the thread and that mod did what he/she deemed appropriate. End of story.

fj1200
05-17-2016, 01:39 PM
There's a LOT to a split second decision.

No question and no disagreement. This involves "busy bodies" on a plane however.

fj1200
05-17-2016, 01:40 PM
I will say this, then it's done. The thread was being derailed. It's a good discussion between those of us that can discuss the issue and I think we were having a good discussion. I had another mod look at the thread and that mod did what he/she deemed appropriate. End of story.

I'm pretty sure that didn't involve me in the least. :)

Gunny
05-17-2016, 01:47 PM
I'm pretty sure that didn't involve me in the least. :)

Doesn't matter. You can address the post previous to that one. I'm not here to fight with anyone. I'd like to discuss the issue. Because to me, there's a fine line between freedom and government protection. I'd like to know where that line is.

revelarts
05-17-2016, 01:58 PM
I'm pretty sure that didn't involve me in the least. :)
agreed and ditto

Gunny
05-17-2016, 02:17 PM
agreed and ditto

Enough already. Address the topic please.

fj1200
05-17-2016, 02:34 PM
Doesn't matter. You can address the post previous to that one. I'm not here to fight with anyone. I'd like to discuss the issue. Because to me, there's a fine line between freedom and government protection. I'd like to know where that line is.

I did but this is new territory for me. Usually when I'm involved in a "scuffle" everyone knows it, now I'm the one that doesn't. :eek:

And back to the topic... I agree, there is a line and we're not going to be changing anything here but at least we can hold or modify our own positions as new information and perspectives emerge. Nobody learns anything if all we do is parrot those who agree with our own way of thinking and shout down reasoned opposition.

Gunny
05-17-2016, 03:53 PM
I did but this is new territory for me. Usually when I'm involved in a "scuffle" everyone knows it, now I'm the one that doesn't. :eek:

And back to the topic... I agree, there is a line and we're not going to be changing anything here but at least we can hold or modify our own positions as new information and perspectives emerge. Nobody learns anything if all we do is parrot those who agree with our own way of thinking and shout down reasoned opposition.

So where is it you think elessar and I disagree? The details? That happened for all our careers. But once the order is given and we gear up, we're on the same page. Get the mission accomplished and bring everyone home. You're not talking to 2 E-3s with one hitch under our belts. I don't want women in combat and I don't want fags in my fighting hole. Anything that disrupts unit cohesion can get you killed.

I don't want ragheads on my plane. They've done enough to my life. I was living in Turkey by the time I was 2. And I couldn't get away from those Arabs until I was 40. Now we're importing them. You reap what you sow. They created their ignorant, 7th century mindset they're still stuck in, not me.

I think it was Benjamin Franklin that said something along the lines of for every ounce of security you give up that much freedom. The right wants freedom. The left wants security, then bitch about it.

fj1200
05-17-2016, 05:36 PM
So where is it you think elessar and I disagree? The details? That happened for all our careers. But once the order is given and we gear up, we're on the same page. Get the mission accomplished and bring everyone home. You're not talking to 2 E-3s with one hitch under our belts. I don't want women in combat and I don't want fags in my fighting hole. Anything that disrupts unit cohesion can get you killed.

I don't want ragheads on my plane. They've done enough to my life. I was living in Turkey by the time I was 2. And I couldn't get away from those Arabs until I was 40. Now we're importing them. You reap what you sow. They created their ignorant, 7th century mindset they're still stuck in, not me.

I think it was Benjamin Franklin that said something along the lines of for every ounce of security you give up that much freedom. The right wants freedom. The left wants security, then bitch about it.

I don't think you two do disagree. I just think that neither of you are addressing the specifics of the thread for some reason. This thread has exceedingly little to do with your life or what you two did while serving, this thread has much more to do with people being targeted for little apparent reason other than their religion. Maybe you don't want them on your plane but they have the privilege of being there by purchasing a ticket on the same flight as you.

Elessar
05-17-2016, 08:36 PM
Let me try this route. I said I was not going to reply earlier, but now I see some
clarification.

Simplistically speaking, it all boils down to the specific event and scenario.

What Military, Search And Rescue Responders, and Law Enforcement Responders
deal with is an abstract environment. In that, no two events or scenarios are
going to be the same, hardly ever!

However, standards must be established as guidelines, with the full understanding
that yesterday's case(s) may not be the same as today's.

Some standards are pretty clear. The military's ROE (Rules of Engagement), The
Federal 'Use of Force Continuum', State's 'Use of Force Continuum'. Just to name a few.
They can all be very complex, but they also allow flexibility understanding that No
Two Scenarios may be the same due to that abstract environment!

I hope that helps some!

Gunny
05-17-2016, 09:09 PM
I don't think you two do disagree. I just think that neither of you are addressing the specifics of the thread for some reason. This thread has exceedingly little to do with your life or what you two did while serving, this thread has much more to do with people being targeted for little apparent reason other than their religion. Maybe you don't want them on your plane but they have the privilege of being there by purchasing a ticket on the same flight as you.

Really. I'm a Marine, He's a squid. We serve together. That doesn't mean we think alike. I never expect that. He does his sh*t and I do mine. That's how we play. You read about these bobbleheads in the paper or on the net. We have them aiming firearms at us. I get the point of the thread better than you do. You're a Monday Morning Quarterback.

My job, and elessar's is to accomplish the mission and bring every swinging d*ck you left with back home. I'm not taking a stupid risk. You want to blame the accuser which I have agreed with only because of my education. When in doubt, you're off the plane. I don't give a crap about their religion. I look at what they're willing to do for it.

fj1200
05-18-2016, 10:55 AM
Let me try this route. I said I was not going to reply earlier, but now I see some
clarification.

Simplistically speaking, it all boils down to the specific event and scenario.

What Military, Search And Rescue Responders, and Law Enforcement Responders
deal with is an abstract environment. In that, no two events or scenarios are
going to be the same, hardly ever!

However, standards must be established as guidelines, with the full understanding
that yesterday's case(s) may not be the same as today's.

Some standards are pretty clear. The military's ROE (Rules of Engagement), The
Federal 'Use of Force Continuum', State's 'Use of Force Continuum'. Just to name a few.
They can all be very complex, but they also allow flexibility understanding that No
Two Scenarios may be the same due to that abstract environment!

I hope that helps some!

Not really. The question at hand is not a military operation. But I agree that there have to be guidelines.


Really. I'm a Marine, He's a squid. We serve together. That doesn't mean we think alike. I never expect that. He does his sh*t and I do mine. That's how we play. You read about these bobbleheads in the paper or on the net. We have them aiming firearms at us. I get the point of the thread better than you do. You're a Monday Morning Quarterback.

My job, and elessar's is to accomplish the mission and bring every swinging d*ck you left with back home. I'm not taking a stupid risk. You want to blame the accuser which I have agreed with only because of my education. When in doubt, you're off the plane. I don't give a crap about their religion. I look at what they're willing to do for it.

I didn't say you thought alike, I said I didn't think you two disagreed. The question at hand however is not a military one.

Elessar
05-18-2016, 11:58 AM
Not really. The question at hand is not a military operation. But I agree that there have to be guidelines.
I didn't say you thought alike, I said I didn't think you two disagreed. The question at hand however is not a military one.

What has to be applied, is that many domestic standards are based on military
policies and procedures.

Take Incident Command System (ICS) for example. That was created after
devastating wildfires in Los Angeles County in the early 1970's where there
was no central Command and Control. It was based on military tactics
and procedures. Now it is integral in the National Disaster Preparedness Plan(NDPP),
initiated by the GWB administration after 9/11. All federal, state, and local
governments and agencies are required to comply with the NDPP, or face the
loss of eligibility to receive Federal Grants. Katrina was a prime example of
the City and Parish of New Orleans and State of Louisiana not being in compliance
with the NDPP. They had no structure set up to evacuate and respond after
the storm passed through.

In Law Enforcement, domestic and federal Use of Force policies are based on
military policies and procedures.

Now why is this? Because the military systems are proven effective and are
an excellent pattern to base many other things on.

fj1200
05-18-2016, 12:59 PM
What has to be applied, is that many domestic standards are based on military
policies and procedures.

...

And now, if you will, what is the military background of the average stewardess and passenger who are the ones forming this last line of defense? Taking into account that in the past 15 years we've reworked government intel procedures, brought various government agencies and law enforcement under Homeland Security, created the TSA to ensure airline security, check every airline passenger against watch lists, etc.

Gunny
05-18-2016, 01:15 PM
Not really. The question at hand is not a military operation. But I agree that there have to be guidelines.



I didn't say you thought alike, I said I didn't think you two disagreed. The question at hand however is not a military one.

It is when you are discussing it with two military retirees. Just what exactly do you think we are going to think like? The career cashier at Wal Mart? SMEAC.

Situation
Mission
Enemy
Admin and Logistics
Command and control

If people weren't so ignorant they'd learn to assess a situation before crying wolf. They're too lazy to educate themselves. They'd rather play on their smart phones that have made them dumb. They don't have to think for themselves and they're too busy on facebook or twitter or whatever.

Black Diamond
05-18-2016, 01:17 PM
Way I look at it, if a passenger attempts a hijacking or tries to penetrate the cockpit door, I become a soldier for what it's worth.

Black Diamond
05-18-2016, 01:18 PM
It is when you are discussing it with two military retirees. Just what exactly do you think we are going to think like? The career cashier at Wal Mart? SMEAC.

Situation
Mission
Enemy
Admin and Logistics
Command and control

If people weren't so ignorant they'd learn to assess a situation before crying wolf. They're too lazy to educate themselves. They'd rather play on their smart phones that have made them dumb. They don't have to think for themselves and they're too busy on facebook or twitter or whatever.

We are going to pay for this

Gunny
05-18-2016, 01:21 PM
We are going to pay for this

I'll tell you right now. If I was going to attack this country? I'd go after satellites and power grids. It would flat shut us down. Oh No! I can't Tweet! What do I do now?

Elessar
05-18-2016, 02:02 PM
And now, if you will, what is the military background of the average stewardess and passenger who are the ones forming this last line of defense? Taking into account that in the past 15 years we've reworked government intel procedures, brought various government agencies and law enforcement under Homeland Security, created the TSA to ensure airline security, check every airline passenger against watch lists, etc.

Uncomplicate it.

There is no assumed military background on either of the bolded.

It is the structure that they are within, TSA for one, that dictates.
TSA is not perfect, especially when dealing with masses of people and
cargo. But it is FAR better than what existed before. B

But again we are dealing with abstracts, something you cannot put
into a binder as in a hardback book or directive.

I know full well about the restructuring for the underlined. I was
part of it. I have posted what was done with that restructuring several
times.

fj1200
05-18-2016, 02:13 PM
Just what exactly do you think we are going to think like? The career cashier at Wal Mart?

But that is who is sitting next to people who scare them.


Uncomplicate it.

There is no assumed military background on either of the bolded.

It is the structure that they are within, TSA for one, that dictates.
TSA is not perfect, especially when dealing with masses of people and
cargo. But it is FAR better than what existed before. B

But again we are dealing with abstracts, something you cannot put
into a binder as in a hardback book or directive.

I know full well about the restructuring for the underlined. I was
part of it. I have posted what was done with that restructuring several
times.

Thank you. The bold is exactly my point. Miscellaneous passengers are part of no structure whatsoever.

Elessar
05-18-2016, 02:26 PM
But that is who is sitting next to people who scare them.
Thank you. The bold is exactly my point. Miscellaneous passengers are part of no structure whatsoever.

That is fine and kudos.

However when in a situation that is covered by that structure, they
are subject to the rules and regulations.

Getting on an airliner, bus, or train is not a Right, it is a privilege
just as getting a driver's license is not a right.

Gunny
05-18-2016, 02:26 PM
But that is who is sitting next to people who scare them.
.

Not what we, or I specifically, am addressing. I'm addressing your comment. I AM military. Grew up in it and was in it. I have a set of skills. I'm not saying it's better just different. I'm trained for this kind of crap. Look at those military guys on liberty on that train in Europe a couple of months back. They just moved. I'm not trained to have a 3 panel discussion on what we should do. I'm trained to act. They stopped him before he got started.

However, the general population is sheep. They don't know sh*t about fighting and they think "all Muslims are bad" and "anything different is bad". If you can't tell the difference between an Italian and an Arab, you got issues. If you're a Muslim on a plane, I'd do everything I could to not do anything. Because there's ALWAYS a Mrs Kravitz.

Elessar
05-18-2016, 02:30 PM
Way I look at it, if a passenger attempts a hijacking or tries to penetrate the cockpit door, I become a soldier for what it's worth.

I sure would too! Good on You, BD!

fj1200
05-18-2016, 02:32 PM
That is fine and kudos.

However when in a situation that is covered by that structure, they
are subject to the rules and regulations.

Getting on an airliner, bus, or train is not a Right, it is a privilege
just as getting a driver's license is not a right.

Nobody called it a right and this thread is about the privilege that anyone who buys a ticket has to be on that plane.


Not what we, or I specifically, am addressing. I'm addressing your comment. I AM military. Grew up in it and was in it. I have a set of skills. I'm not saying it's better just different. I'm trained for this kind of crap. Look at those military guys on liberty on that train in Europe a couple of months back. They just moved. I'm not trained to have a 3 panel discussion on what we should do. I'm trained to act. They stopped him before he got started.

However, the general population is sheep. They don't know sh*t about fighting and they think "all Muslims are bad" and "anything different is bad". If you can't tell the difference between an Italian and an Arab, you got issues. If you're a Muslim on a plane, I'd do everything I could to not do anything. Because there's ALWAYS a Mrs Kravitz.

My comment? My comments are about the sheep and their lack of ability in determining threats.

Gunny
05-18-2016, 02:32 PM
I sure would too! Good on You, BD!

I always am amazed they get away with using box cutters. You pull a box cutter on ME? You can kiss your sh*t goodbye.

fj1200
05-18-2016, 02:34 PM
I always am amazed they get away with using box cutters. You pull a box cutter on ME? You can kiss your sh*t goodbye.

Not just box cutters. Our ignorance to the threat and their willingness to do anything.

Elessar
05-18-2016, 02:50 PM
Nobody called it a right and this thread is about the privilege that anyone who buys a ticket has to be on that plane.
My comment? My comments are about the sheep and their lack of ability in determining threats.

Call it ignorance and the inability to pay attention to detail!

Many newspaper articles have sent messages about situational awareness;
in print guidance to what to be aware of that are released, not by the press,
but from proper authority.

That, they ignore it is not the fault of the authority, is the responsibility of
the individual. If they choose to glean over such advice is on their shoulders.

But the first to wail and whine are those very sheep, FJ. You Can't Fix Stupid!

Gunny
05-18-2016, 02:55 PM
Not just box cutters. Our ignorance to the threat and their willingness to do anything.

Who do you think you're talking to? Where is FJ? Who gave him a lobotomy and who is using his account? I understand them all too well. Unlike people that just hate something they don't understand, I study my enemy.

Elessar
05-18-2016, 03:00 PM
I always am amazed they get away with using box cutters. You pull a box cutter on ME? You can kiss your sh*t goodbye.

Thus the tighter security measures put in place by HLS to be enforced by several
agencies under the HLS 'banner". TSA, USCG, ICE, CBP, FBI is the short list.

Gunny
05-18-2016, 03:10 PM
Thus the tighter security measures put in place by HLS to be enforced by several
agencies under the HLS 'banner". TSA, USCG, ICE, CBP, FBI is the short list.

I think it's a shame it has come to that. I've watched TSA. They couldn't stop Chuckie on a tricycle.

However, isn't it against the law to yell "Fire" in a theater? If we're going to have these rules then these people need better training to recognize what is and isn't a threat. And as I said before, these clowns ain't going to sit there and draw up their plans on their tray table. Everyone thinks they're stupid and they aren't. If they're going to do something, the plan is already in place and so are the people. They're bushwhackers. That means the deal is long before they get on.

Elessar
05-18-2016, 03:18 PM
I think it's a shame it has come to that. I've watched TSA. They couldn't stop Chuckie on a tricycle.

However, isn't it against the law to yell "Fire" in a theater? If we're going to have these rules then these people need better training to recognize what is and isn't a threat. And as I said before, these clowns ain't going to sit there and draw up their plans on their tray table. Everyone thinks they're stupid and they aren't. If they're going to do something, the plan is already in place and so are the people. They're bushwhackers. That means the deal is long before they get on.

Simple. The general public is complacent, fat, dumb, and happy. Programs
are out there and are open to the public for that Situational Awareness.
That they are not willing to attend and participate is on their ass, not the
government at any level. The seminars are free of cost. All it takes is time
to attend.

You can do the same thing on computer, but nothing beats a sit-down in a
public setting.

revelarts
05-18-2016, 03:23 PM
It is when you are discussing it with two military retirees. Just what exactly do you think we are going to think like? The career cashier at Wal Mart? SMEAC.

Situation
Mission
Enemy
Admin and Logistics
Command and control

If people weren't so ignorant they'd learn to assess a situation before crying wolf. They're too lazy to educate themselves. They'd rather play on their smart phones that have made them dumb. They don't have to think for themselves and they're too busy on facebook or twitter or whatever.


Situation
Mission
Enemy
Admin and Logistics
Command and control
Constitution???

Gunny
05-18-2016, 03:49 PM
Situation
Mission
Enemy
Admin and Logistics
Command and control
Constitution???

One is not comparable to the other. I am a strict Constitutionalist.

The Constitution is NOT an order of battle.

You people that want to let politicians run the military have used us since the American Revolution as a toll to line your purses. Then you give us crap and toss us in the trash when you're done with us.

I'm trained to recognize a threat. Period. Obviously you haven't read my posts in this thread because I think it was an overreaction by a hysterical, paranoid CIVILIAN. YOU. Not me. I got threat assessment down pat. I'm also educated and don't let my religion nor politics cloud my assessment.

Maybe you lame brains ought to consider reading a book and educating yourselves before you cry wolf? Just a thought.

Elessar
05-18-2016, 03:59 PM
Situation
Mission
Enemy
Admin and Logistics
Command and control
Constitution???

Don't be obtuse, Rev.

The deckplate responders sometimes do not have time to glean through that
document when put on a point. We have / had to act according to the immediate
situation and prevent a potential bad situation from getting worse.

The fallback is let the Chain-of-Command and lawyers sort it out. No directive or
document prevents those on scene from taking initial action when it is warranted
for the protection of innocents, self, or team mates.

If I was wrong, I would have gladly stood before the 'Old Man' and faced the music.
It never, ever in my 37 years came to that.

Gunny
05-18-2016, 04:21 PM
Don't be obtuse, Rev.

The deckplate responders sometimes do not have time to glean through that
document when put on a point. We have / had to act according to the immediate
situation and prevent a potential bad situation from getting worse.

The fallback is let the Chain-of-Command and lawyers sort it out. No directive or
document prevents those on scene from taking initial action when it is warranted
for the protection of innocents, self, or team mates.

If I was wrong, I would have gladly stood before the 'Old Man' and faced the music.
It never, ever in my 37 years came to that.

Rev's not purposefully obtuse, in my opinion. He's just goofy as Hell sometimes and loves to interject himself in arguments he doesn't belong in. It's not just him and it's not just us. It's about the situation and first responders. Military, EMT , cops ... we don't have the luxury of time. You make a decision. Unless it's criminal, I ain't holding it against you. If you're a dumbass, you get relieved of duty.

In my position, when rounds came flying down range I gave orders. I lost a couple of Marines. If I stopped and cried I'd have lost more. Where were THEIR Constitutional Rights?

Elessar
05-18-2016, 04:39 PM
Rev's not purposefully obtuse, in my opinion. He's just goofy as Hell sometimes and loves to interject himself in arguments he doesn't belong in. It's not just him and it's not just us. It's about the situation and first responders. Military, EMT , cops ... we don't have the luxury of time. You make a decision. Unless it's criminal, I ain't holding it against you. If you're a dumbass, you get relieved of duty.

In my position, when rounds came flying down range I gave orders. I lost a couple of Marines. If I stopped and cried I'd have lost more. Where were THEIR Constitutional Rights?

I could not agree more Gunny.

I was on watch at the District Command Center when we lost two
SAR Helo crews, part of one was two guys that took me on a Area Familiarization flight. One of the
others on that flight smacked into Ambrose Tower tower off of Rockaway NY after he was transferred
to Air Station Brooklyn.

The loss of comrades never eases by departing. It is a sincere bond that Civ's will never
appreciate or understand. One 31 year-old Coastie was found dead in his home back where
I just moved from. He was a good and straight up lad, very professional.

Gunny
05-18-2016, 05:04 PM
I could not agree more Gunny.

I was on watch at the District Command Center when we lost two
SAR Helo crews, part of one was two guys that took me on a Area Familiarization flight. One of the
others on that flight smacked into Ambrose Tower tower off of Rockaway NY after he was transferred
to Air Station Brooklyn.

The loss of comrades never eases by departing. It is a sincere bond that Civ's will never
appreciate or understand. One 31 year-old Coastie was found dead in his home back where
I just moved from. He was a good and straight up lad, very professional.

Let me be clear. I don't understand civilians. I never have. I also realize that most of them just don't get it. I don't hold it against them. I usually try to sit back and figure out where they're coming from. I'm sure a lot of them think I'm part of the Borg. :laugh:

What I don't like is when people don't listen. And then want to tell me what it was all about.

revelarts
05-18-2016, 05:06 PM
One is not comparable to the other. I am a strict Constitutionalist.

The Constitution is NOT an order of battle.

You people that want to let politicians run the military have used us since the American Revolution as a toll to line your purses. Then you give us crap and toss us in the trash when you're done with us.

I'm trained to recognize a threat. Period. Obviously you haven't read my posts in this thread because I think it was an overreaction by a hysterical, paranoid CIVILIAN. YOU. Not me. I got threat assessment down pat. I'm also educated and don't let my religion nor politics cloud my assessment.

Maybe you lame brains ought to consider reading a book and educating yourselves before you cry wolf? Just a thought.

Gunny if your dont read anything just get this.
And I'd Sugest you read up on how good constitutional police and FBI conduct business and add that to your training if you want to drop the BUT off your "strict" constitutionalism.



Constitution and U.S. law and treaty lays out what the US gov't... which includes the military last i checked... can and cannot do. the Civilain gov't it regulates the terms and places of "battle" and who gives the commands.

Gunny look, you and some of military guys act like you'd really prefer a military dictatorship.
But many of the rest of us prefer "civilian leadership"... under the constitution... no matter how flawed.
(BTW when the military can fix its sad rape and suicide problems tell me how perfect the military is)

you can call me names and pretend you know better, but i don't buy it Gunny.
I respect what the U.S. gov't under the constitution has trained you to do, "fight wars" but that's not police work and it's not intelligence work. But that's what's really needed on the PROTECTIVE side of terrorist work on the ground on U.S soil.
"BATTLE" mode is the LAST step, not the 1st one.

From what you've written it seems to me that your training and experience has given you 1 powerful tool. Full on attack mode. On and Off. But somehow you think any whiff of a threat deserve that ONE tool response. Sorry I don't buy it. There's no doubt in my mind that it's WRONG. We are not in a WAR ZONE at every airport and shop and town in the U.S.. There are many other tools to be used BEFORE you get to that one and in the U.S. the Constitution grants everyone here rights that DO NOT allow for WARZONE tactics to be typical order of the day.

I'm sure you disagree and you and Elesar can continue your chest beating, backslapping and dodging simply questions but sorry every problem is NOT a nail that your WAR training and tactics, experience and beliefs apply to.
And in general they do NOT apply on U.S. soil under the constitution and bill of rights... strictly or loosely.

I don't want to hear about I'm a constitutionalist BUT ...
I don't want a Prison Camp Guards, or Military Police Checkpoints and Military rules and Points of Battle order to "keep me safe". Not even if they work 100% of the time, which you know they will not, do not, and never have done.

Freedom and constitutional law and the bill of rights means a certain of amount of danger. I prefer to live within those rules. but YES i want everything done up to those rules for the public safety. And if the ball is dropped, Yes I will complain. Beyond that, well, like the 2nd amendment , sadly some people will misuse weapons and get away with murder. It doesn't mean I want a Military police state or gun confiscation, or mass deportations, or "Arabs" treated like Crap.

Elessar
05-18-2016, 05:09 PM
I'm sure a lot of them think I'm part of the Borg. :laugh:

What I don't like is when people don't listen. And then want to tell me what it was all about.

Borg! Good analogy!:laugh:

The rest? Spot on!

Gunny
05-18-2016, 07:44 PM
Gunny if your dont read anything just get this.
And I'd Sugest you read up on how good constitutional police and FBI conduct business and add that to your training if you want to drop the BUT off your "strict" constitutionalism.



Constitution and U.S. law and treaty lays out what the US gov't... which includes the military last i checked... can and cannot do. the Civilain gov't it regulates the terms and places of "battle" and who gives the commands.

Gunny look, you and some of military guys act like you'd really prefer a military dictatorship.
But many of the rest of us prefer "civilian leadership"... under the constitution... no matter how flawed.
(BTW when the military can fix its sad rape and suicide problems tell me how perfect the military is)

you can call me names and pretend you know better, but i don't buy it Gunny.
I respect what the U.S. gov't under the constitution has trained you to do, "fight wars" but that's not police work and it's not intelligence work. But that's what's really needed on the PROTECTIVE side of terrorist work on the ground on U.S soil.
"BATTLE" mode is the LAST step, not the 1st one.

From what you've written it seems to me that your training and experience has given you 1 powerful tool. Full on attack mode. On and Off. But somehow you think any whiff of a threat deserve that ONE tool response. Sorry I don't buy it. There's no doubt in my mind that it's WRONG. We are not in a WAR ZONE at every airport and shop and town in the U.S.. There are many other tools to be used BEFORE you get to that one and in the U.S. the Constitution grants everyone here rights that DO NOT allow for WARZONE tactics to be typical order of the day.

I'm sure you disagree and you and Elesar can continue your chest beating, backslapping and dodging simply questions but sorry every problem is NOT a nail that your WAR training and tactics, experience and beliefs apply to.
And in general they do NOT apply on U.S. soil under the constitution and bill of rights... strictly or loosely.

I don't want to hear about I'm a constitutionalist BUT ...
I don't want a Prison Camp Guards, or Military Police Checkpoints and Military rules and Points of Battle order to "keep me safe". Not even if they work 100% of the time, which you know they will not, do not, and never have done.

Freedom and constitutional law and the bill of rights means a certain of amount of danger. I prefer to live within those rules. but YES i want everything done up to those rules for the public safety. And if the ball is dropped, Yes I will complain. Beyond that, well, like the 2nd amendment , sadly some people will misuse weapons and get away with murder. It doesn't mean I want a Military police state or gun confiscation, or mass deportations, or "Arabs" treated like Crap.

You apparently don't read up. So don't go telling me to do so. I know and understand the law.

Having said that, how can you expect me to think like you? I mean no offense when I call y'all civilians. I usually do it to make a point. What YOU don't get is it is about tolerance and understanding of others. How is it that I, the Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant am more tolerant and understanding than you?

When you watch people die, you kind of figure out what is and isn't important. You fuss over silly sh*t to me. We actually think alike on quite a few subjects. At the same time, don't go for a job in journalism. You're abysmal in writing and don't join the military. You can't stay on track for sh*t.

SO how about we keep this thread about the topic and you can get in my a$$ in the lounge or the cage; whichever you prefer.

My comments were merely to point out we don't think alike. Not derail from the original topic. There's a difference in the way we view things.

aboutime
05-18-2016, 08:18 PM
You apparently don't read up. So don't go telling me to do so. I know and understand the law.

Having said that, how can you expect me to think like you? I mean no offense when I call y'all civilians. I usually do it to make a point. What YOU don't get is it is about tolerance and understanding of others. How is it that I, the Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant am more tolerant and understanding than you?

When you watch people die, you kind of figure out what is and isn't important. You fuss over silly sh*t to me. We actually think alike on quite a few subjects. At the same time, don't go for a job in journalism. You're abysmal in writing and don't join the military. You can't stay on track for sh*t.

SO how about we keep this thread about the topic and you can get in my a$$ in the lounge or the cage; whichever you prefer.

My comments were merely to point out we don't think alike. Not derail from the original topic. There's a difference in the way we view things.




Gunny. Sounds like the rev is mistaking PROTECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE with the desired Dictatorship aspects based on his hatred, and disgust for MILITARY.

Our president has all but destroyed (CONSTITUTIONALLY) his sworn duties to PROTECT this nation, and has ignored his PRIMARY duty as president by placing this nation in greater threat from enemies....I believe...rev would APOLOGIZE to like Obama.

Elessar
05-18-2016, 08:29 PM
Gunny look, you and some of military guys act like you'd really prefer a military dictatorship.
But many of the rest of us prefer "civilian leadership"... under the constitution... no matter how flawed.
(BTW when the military can fix its sad rape and suicide problems tell me how perfect the military is)



Holy Cow! Where did you ever get that idea from?
You do not read....just gloss over and find some retort likely found on the 'net.

If You are so concerned with rape and suicide, mend your own whining civilian
fences first. It is not a military problem - it is a social problem and that line was
a deflective low-blow. I thought better of you. Perhaps I was wrong.

Gunny
05-18-2016, 08:42 PM
Gunny. Sounds like the rev is mistaking PROTECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE with the desired Dictatorship aspects based on his hatred, and disgust for MILITARY.

Our president has all but destroyed (CONSTITUTIONALLY) his sworn duties to PROTECT this nation, and has ignored his PRIMARY duty as president by placing this nation in greater threat from enemies....I believe...rev would APOLOGIZE to like Obama.

He's an anarchist. Ideally, self-policing is great. Except nobody wants it. He can't divorce his idealism from reality. Jimmy Carter had that problem.

indago
05-19-2016, 12:02 AM
I don't think you two do disagree. I just think that neither of you are addressing the specifics of the thread for some reason. This thread has exceedingly little to do with your life or what you two did while serving...

I can agree with that. The plane wasn't a military plane; the pilot was not an officer in the military; the stewardesses were not WACS; Guido Menzio was not an officer in the military, he is an "Ivy League professor"; nor was "the woman sitting next to him" military. And yet we have has-beens here refighting the last war, Shukn'n'Jivin' and derailing the thread.




.

indago
05-19-2016, 12:39 AM
There was certainly an overreaction by the plane personnel. The woman could have been called to another part of the plane to question her concerning her complaint, and then approach the professor about what he was writing and have him explain it all. He could have calmed any fears initiated by the woman passenger.

Elessar
05-19-2016, 01:10 AM
I can agree with that. The plane wasn't a military plane; the pilot was not an officer in the military; the stewardesses were not WACS; Guido Menzio was not an officer in the military, he is an "Ivy League professor"; nor was "the woman sitting next to him" military. And yet we have has-beens here refighting the last war, Shukn'n'Jivin' and derailing the thread.
.

Has-beens?

I oppose a Never-Been who has not wisdom enough to fill a thimble.

Have you not read a single thing that was offered? Have you not googled the sources mentioned?
After all, you are the Cut 'n Paste King of DP. You did NOT read through the whole thread, just
picking and choosing what satisfies your narrow minded hatred of L.E. and Military.

Nowhere in any of those messages was presumed what you posted here. Nowhere! I've not
seen such a weak-assed hardhead in ages. You must really impress yourself...but few others.

indago
05-19-2016, 08:14 AM
Has-beens?

I oppose a Never-Been who has not wisdom enough to fill a thimble.

Have you not read a single thing that was offered? Have you not googled the sources mentioned?
After all, you are the Cut 'n Paste King of DP. You did NOT read through the whole thread, just
picking and choosing what satisfies your narrow minded hatred of L.E. and Military.

Nowhere in any of those messages was presumed what you posted here. Nowhere! I've not
seen such a weak-assed hardhead in ages. You must really impress yourself...but few others.

Ooooo! Did I hit a nerve there, or what...

Elessar
05-19-2016, 10:36 AM
Ooooo! Did I hit a nerve there, or what...

Hardy...just pointing out the obvious.

revelarts
05-19-2016, 12:56 PM
Holy Cow! Where did you ever get that idea from?
You do not read....just gloss over and find some retort likely found on the 'net.

If You are so concerned with rape and suicide, mend your own whining civilian
fences first. It is not a military problem - it is a social problem and that line was
a deflective low-blow. I thought better of you. Perhaps I was wrong.


ah well… maybe so


But look Elessar, i complement the military where it works but i do not idolize it. It has strengths and weaknesses. and Yes rape is a human problem and its not handled well in civilian life very well. But it seems that for decades now the military has had a even a more difficult time dealing with it honestly and effectively. Maybe it was a "low blow" but I have to admit i’d just gotten a bit tired of the continued droning on an on in this thread with stuff like—
---we in the military know better than you "fat" "lazy" "borg" "civilians" "whining protesters" and if you'd would "listen" and "do what we say" since we've 'Been There, Done That!' instead of "interjecting yourself in arguments you don't belong in" because you "obviously, haven't been in a split second decision matrix" then everything would be great!…— commentary


Look I get that you guys LOVE the military and think that the people and training give you the clear edge in violent situations. (if not make you come across as if you think you're overall and in general better than others)
I'm just not ..maybe this a low blow as well.... I'm not a military cult member. In general my psyche just tends to see good, bad and the ugly in everything. (And for the record again, I've had uncles, cousins, in the military and worked with full duty, reserved and retired military people all my life. Air force, navy, army and marines. One of my closest friends is retired military. Many days as a kid i spent at the VA hospital since my mom was a nurse there and we needed to wait for her on VA grounds with Viet Nam, Korean and WWII vets and families. (those WW2 guys had the best stories BTW) So i'm not unsympathetic or completely unfamiliar with military issues and personnel.)

And I don't think anyone here can point to ONE place where I've been dismissive of military personnel’s opinions calling them "borg" or brainwashed or possibly PTSS addled or militarily narrow-minded, simply because they've happen NOT to be civilians. I've tried addressed your points with law, logic and facts .

you've been pretty clear in your replies but you've frankly DODGED several of my questions and slapped Gunny on the back with thanks at his personal digs and contentless --we're military i just know better--- --i done looked um in the eye-- comments.

An you've ignored the fact that others in the military, the FBI, Police and Yes even people who are civilians might have some valid options. Rather than address those ideas you and Gunny keep trying to play the —I’m in the military and your not— card.

you've made several points about "split second" reactions. OK fine I've acknowledge the split second life and death opinions are best handled by those with a certain training. In my mind that's a given. But the thread is about assessing POTENTIAL threats that may be developing SLOWLY and with few clues. And having a "MATRIX" to determine who might be a threat and what are the best LEGAL PREVENTATIVE STEPS to take to deal with them.

Some seem to think every suspected "Arab" should be shot or deported at any hint of trouble.

Early on in the thread you said
“Why possibly compromise the welfare of everyone in a flight when
someone fits the image of what is known to be a terrorist that will
blow the damn plane up and kill everyone?”

I've been trying to get a CLEAR answer on IF/or what your looking for BEYOND the fact someones an “ARAB”.
and what STEPS you'd take ...assuming it's not a SPLIT second scenario. Do you stay within the constitution? Am i being “obtuse” in referring to it in "real world" police work and investigations. At this point that's the impression you've given me. that ONLY military training should be used that Constitution is NOT a factor. In my mind if MILITARY training and tactics are the ONLY factor then it sounds like you want MILITARY RULE. NOT constitutional rule or horrible “civilian” rule.

is that too cut and dry?
I like the 2nd amendment in the "real world". I suspect Im not being "idealistic" about that.
But when i mention the constitution in regard to terrorism somehow some think i've become "impractical" and idealistic". And the constitution is poo pooed, ignored and replaced with military tactics, rules, orders and "chain of command". By way of clear definition that IS Military Rule or Dictatorship in my mind. No matter what euphemism some might apply. Seems to me people should be honest about what they are promoting if it’s not REAL WORLD constitutionalism and the bill of rights then it’s something else. Earlier you mentioned that certain things were “privileges” and not “rights” well that's debatable but if you and others assume we MUST IGNORE constitutional rights by default as “impractical” then what legal grounds are you using for your actions? Military rules of engagement... which is De facto Military law dictatorship. It may be starkly put but realistically that’s what it is.
What exactly am i missing.

Gunny
05-19-2016, 01:16 PM
I can agree with that. The plane wasn't a military plane; the pilot was not an officer in the military; the stewardesses were not WACS; Guido Menzio was not an officer in the military, he is an "Ivy League professor"; nor was "the woman sitting next to him" military. And yet we have has-beens here refighting the last war, Shukn'n'Jivin' and derailing the thread.




.

You and FJ are kind of missing the point. My comment was directed more to the training and lack thereof by people in authority. They don't have to be military (even though TSA tries to act like it). I learned to recognize Arabic when I was 10. I can recognize Greek and Russian as well. Learned that in school in Greece when I was 12. I can speak Spanish and can probably read it better than most Mexicans. Leaned that in school too. The military had nothing to do with it. Except for the different places I've lived because my father was military.

The other point is elessar and I are trained first responders. We have to assess a situation a split second. There's no room for debate. We act. That's what we do. It's not bragging. There's a heartache side to every bit of it.

I haven't disagreed that some hysterical busybody got some guy tossed off the plane. But when you assume a position of authority, you need to be trained to handle the situation. From the incidences I've seen of Arabs on planes, all you have to do is yell "fire" and you tossed and held by people with IQ level of monkeys. I don't have the problem y'all do with security because ... wait for it ... I'm military. I was well-trained to do my job. These clowns need to have mandatory training to assess a situation without overreacting.

At the same time, you are responsible for your actions. I wouldn't be writing in Arabic on a plane.

Was it me? I'd have put the biddy off the plane and given the dude complimentary drinks for the flight for being inconvenienced by some paranoid, hysterical goofball.

Elessar
05-19-2016, 02:07 PM
Decision making study I attended (if I could find the paperwork I saved I would offer a reference,
but I am still unpacking some things).

Visualize an equilateral triangle sitting on it's apex, then with a straight line up the center.
One leg to one side will indicate an immediate reaction and decision made; the other leg
will indicate a more contemplative decision made.

Of the Command Center Staff at CG Sector Los Angeles/Long Beach all 18 members, which
included watch-standers and supervisors, participated in this exercise. I was the Senior
watch-stander at the time. Some Supervisors were Junior Officers.

Only 3 of us scored along that center-line; Me as a BM1(E-6), Our Command Center Chief,
a QMCS (E-8), and another BM2(E-5) watch-stander. The rest tended to drift one way or the other.

The optimal is to be along that center-line, being able to evaluate input, data, and stimulus and
respond accordingly to one leg or the other. It is all human nature and only training will draw
people more that that center-line.

If I find that reference, I will ask a Mod or Admin to attach it on this post. It is quite interesting.

Gunny
05-19-2016, 02:47 PM
Decision making study I attended (if I could find the paperwork I saved I would offer a reference,
but I am still unpacking some things).

Visualize an equilateral triangle sitting on it's apex, then with a straight line up the center.
One leg to one side will indicate an immediate reaction and decision made; the other leg
will indicate a more contemplative decision made.

Of the Command Center Staff at CG Sector Los Angeles/Long Beach all 18 members, which
included watch-standers and supervisors, participated in this exercise. I was the Senior
watch-stander at the time. Some Supervisors were Junior Officers.

Only 3 of us scored along that center-line; Me as a BM1(E-6), Our Command Center Chief,
a QMCS (E-8), and another BM2(E-5) watch-stander. The rest tended to drift one way or the other.

The optimal is to be along that center-line, being able to evaluate input, data, and stimulus and
respond accordingly to one leg or the other. It is all human nature and only training will draw
people more that that center-line.

If I find that reference, I will ask a Mod or Admin to attach it on this post. It is quite interesting.

Sounds like y'all Coasties complicated some simple sh*t to me. :laugh: You really don't think they gave a bunch of jarheads that test do you? You might as well put me on Dancing with the Stars. :laugh2:

You assess a situation make a decision and go with it. Got a saying in the Corps .... every well-made, took two weeks to do it plan goes to shit the second that first round comes down range. I've ended up nowhere I was even close to supposed to be more than once.

Elessar
05-19-2016, 03:04 PM
[QUOTE=Gunny;817646]Sounds like y'all Coasties complicated some simple sh*t to me. :laugh: You really don't think they gave a bunch of jarheads that test do you? You might as well put me on Dancing with the Stars. :laugh2:

You assess a situation make a decision and go with it. Got a saying in the Corps .... every well-made, took two weeks to do it plan goes to shit the second that first round comes down range. I've ended up nowhere I was even close to supposed to be more than once.[/QUOTE

It was an interesting Seminar that opened a lot of eyes. The difference, I can tell
is the Corps, and Air Force (responsible for inland SAR) and the Navy all speak the
same language - Just Different Dialects!

Gunny
05-19-2016, 03:22 PM
[QUOTE=Gunny;817646]Sounds like y'all Coasties complicated some simple sh*t to me. :laugh: You really don't think they gave a bunch of jarheads that test do you? You might as well put me on Dancing with the Stars. :laugh2:

You assess a situation make a decision and go with it. Got a saying in the Corps .... every well-made, took two weeks to do it plan goes to shit the second that first round comes down range. I've ended up nowhere I was even close to supposed to be more than once.[/QUOTE

It was an interesting Seminar that opened a lot of eyes. The difference, I can tell
is the Corps, and Air Force (responsible for inland SAR) and the Navy all speak the
same language - Just Different Dialects!


That is actually not quite correct. The Air Force hates us. We don't call them. Last thing I need is some 5000 feet sky jock providing CAS. They're as like to kill us as the enemy. I call Navy and Marine birds in. They're trained. And I rather be rescued by a squid than have one of those arrogant Air Force pansies get my ass.

The irony: I grew up in the Air Force. I was so offended I went from okay USAF dependent to neanderthal Marine it wasn't even funny.

Elessar
05-19-2016, 03:50 PM
You and FJ are kind of missing the point.

The other point is elessar and I are trained first responders. We have to assess a situation a split second. There's no room for debate. We act. That's what we do. It's not bragging. There's a heartache side to every bit of it.



I missed this at first reading. I've never seen a better description put
on what we and domestic responders are challenged with.

We have to neutralize our emotions and personal feelings; otherwise
we would go insane. I cannot get emotionally connected with the people
I am trying to save. It came very close, though once:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roz_Savage

Look at that link and scroll down to "The Pacific". I coordinated
that case from the start. I talked that lady off the Brocade so our
helo could rescue her. That aircrew was sensational. They only
had 10 minutes of on-scene time due to fuel.

Another I managed was a tragedy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261

You feel helpless but know you have to plunge ahead and do the right thing.

fj1200
05-24-2016, 02:38 PM
Call it ignorance and the inability to pay attention to detail!

Many newspaper articles have sent messages about situational awareness;
in print guidance to what to be aware of that are released, not by the press,
but from proper authority.

That, they ignore it is not the fault of the authority, is the responsibility of
the individual. If they choose to glean over such advice is on their shoulders.

But the first to wail and whine are those very sheep, FJ. You Can't Fix Stupid!

It seems we're having two different conversations. Mine has to do with those sheep on the plane that you think have situational awareness enough so that they should be able to kick anyone off who scares them (it also is exactly what this thread is about). Yours is about something completely different of which I haven't disagreed with no matter how much you try to talk down to anyone you think is in disagreement. :)

fj1200
05-24-2016, 02:39 PM
Who do you think you're talking to? Where is FJ? Who gave him a lobotomy and who is using his account? I understand them all too well. Unlike people that just hate something they don't understand, I study my enemy.

I'm just trying to keep it real for the casual observer who may happen into this thread years down the road. ;)

Gunny
06-03-2016, 04:36 AM
I'm just trying to keep it real for the casual observer who may happen into this thread years down the road. ;)

I'm keeping it real too. I don't have time to break out my slide-rule. And every decision you make as a first responder means life or death. And you got about half a heartbeat to make it. THAT is as real as rain. Whose lives do you risk? My Marines? Or noncombatants? My Marines were a team. They'd die for you. And I''m the one stuck giving the order. I damned sure ain't got no time to debate the situation.

fj1200
06-03-2016, 10:31 AM
I'm keeping it real too. I don't have time to break out my slide-rule. And every decision you make as a first responder means life or death. And you got about half a heartbeat to make it. THAT is as real as rain. Whose lives do you risk? My Marines? Or noncombatants? My Marines were a team. They'd die for you. And I''m the one stuck giving the order. I damned sure ain't got no time to debate the situation.

I'm fairly certain I haven't disagreed with anything you've said about first responders. :)