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Yurt
07-25-2007, 10:24 PM
In Venezuela, Speak No Ill of Hugo

Many foreigners can travel to Venezuela without a visa. But now there's a new requirement once they get there. President Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country. The comments came after the President of Mexico's ruling conservative party criticized Chavez for seeking to do away with term limits at a recent pro-democracy conference in Caracas. "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

socialism rules man, liberals are right to support chavez (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070725/wl_time/invenezuelaspeaknoillofhugo)

Nukeman
07-26-2007, 06:20 AM
In Venezuela, Speak No Ill of Hugo

Many foreigners can travel to Venezuela without a visa. But now there's a new requirement once they get there. President Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country. The comments came after the President of Mexico's ruling conservative party criticized Chavez for seeking to do away with term limits at a recent pro-democracy conference in Caracas. "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

socialism rules man, liberals are right to support chavez (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070725/wl_time/invenezuelaspeaknoillofhugo)

This is soo rich I just love how this fat beady eyed prick sits in his little third world country and tells everyone not to criticisize him or his government. correct me if I'm wrong but didn't this loud mouth piece of shit come the the US and in front of the UN complain and belittle our president in ourcountry.

This fucking banana republic dictator needs to be taught a lesson about practicing what he preaches....:salute:

Gaffer
07-26-2007, 08:32 AM
He'll be given years to build up and get total control before we even consider going after the SOB.

All the lefties love him. So you can get an idea of what to expect from them if they get any real power by watching what he's doing.

Abbey Marie
07-26-2007, 11:41 AM
He'll be given years to build up and get total control before we even consider going after the SOB.

All the lefties love him. So you can get an idea of what to expect from them if they get any real power by watching what he's doing.

And they're already trying.

OCA
07-26-2007, 02:41 PM
Actually its viva El Hugo:poke:

Yurt
07-26-2007, 07:49 PM
This is soo rich I just love how this fat beady eyed prick sits in his little third world country and tells everyone not to criticisize him or his government. correct me if I'm wrong but didn't this loud mouth piece of shit come the the US and in front of the UN complain and belittle our president in ourcountry.

This fucking banana republic dictator needs to be taught a lesson about practicing what he preaches....:salute:

I'm turning you in to the proper banana republic authorities. :laugh2:


The guy is that insecure and knows full well that he cannot rule without being a slimey dictator. "Democracy" *BS* I think that libs might actually stop supporting him now with his enforced anti hugo gag order, even libs will be smart enough to see how much he is impinging on inalienable rights like free speech....................................HA, the very ones who want to shut down talk radio. Its no wonder they are bed buddies.

Yurt
07-26-2007, 07:50 PM
Actually its viva El Hugo:poke:

Ya caught me :laugh2:

Psychoblues
07-27-2007, 01:39 AM
I'll pass a hundred Exxons or Shells to buy gas from a Citgo. The historic and immoral profits and statements as reported by the major oil conglomerates lead me to believe they are not for an instant positively involved with the dilemmas of our planet, our peoples or our economies.


In Venezuela, Speak No Ill of Hugo

Many foreigners can travel to Venezuela without a visa. But now there's a new requirement once they get there. President Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country. The comments came after the President of Mexico's ruling conservative party criticized Chavez for seeking to do away with term limits at a recent pro-democracy conference in Caracas. "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

socialism rules man, liberals are right to support chavez (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070725/wl_time/invenezuelaspeaknoillofhugo)

Many of you might question the morality of Hugo Chavez. Spit it out, I'd like to hear it out loud. In the meantime I'm still passing up the Exxons, Shells and disbelieving all that crap put out by BP.

Yurt
07-27-2007, 12:06 PM
I'll pass a hundred Exxons or Shells to buy gas from a Citgo. The historic and immoral profits and statements as reported by the major oil conglomerates lead me to believe they are not for an instant positively involved with the dilemmas of our planet, our peoples or our economies.



Many of you might question the morality of Hugo Chavez. Spit it out, I'd like to hear it out loud. In the meantime I'm still passing up the Exxons, Shells and disbelieving all that crap put out by BP.

So you have no problem with this:


Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country.

Psychoblues
07-29-2007, 12:57 AM
Hugo gets his tricks from his ol' nemesis, gwb.




So you have no problem with this:

You don't read much, do you, yurt?

Yurt
07-29-2007, 01:50 AM
Hugo gets his tricks from his ol' nemesis, gwb.





You don't read much, do you, yurt?

6 words longer than necessary. Yes or No.

It is that simple. :cool:

nevadamedic
07-29-2007, 02:15 AM
6 words longer than necessary. Yes or No.

It is that simple. :cool:

Simple? That's Psychoblues for ya!

Psychoblues
07-29-2007, 02:55 AM
I got your ass on that real good, yurt.




6 words longer than necessary. Yes or No.

It is that simple. :cool:

Does it sound anything like Homeland Security or the Patriot Act to you as well? Why does nm have to repeat it? No imagination is my guess. Jus' plain ol' dumbass is what I call it.

Yurt
07-30-2007, 10:31 PM
I got your ass on that real good, yurt.





Does it sound anything like Homeland Security or the Patriot Act to you as well? Why does nm have to repeat it? No imagination is my guess. Jus' plain ol' dumbass is what I call it.

My wife is gonna kick your ass for making that lame pass at me :gay:

Psychoblues
08-02-2007, 05:05 AM
Another unanswered question here and another threat from one who can't respond otherwise.

red states rule
08-02-2007, 05:20 AM
Libs love Hugo. He shares the same views about Amercia as they do


You Go, Hugo!
He called Bush the “devil”. He denounced the U.S. imperialist regime and railed against the CIA’s covert plot to supplant him. Then, after Sean Penn was finished speaking, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez had a few choice words for Bush as well.

What a breath of fresh air! What a treat it was to finally see someone stand up to the Bush junta and its imperialist masters who think they can pile huge sums of cash onto Third World countries and get something in return. Granted everything he said has been said before by a Democrat leader or progressive celebrity, but never so passionately and unapologetically blunt. What courage it took for Chavez to come here and voice his patriotic dissent against the government, when you can be imprisoned or shot as an Enemy of the People for doing the same thing in Venezuela. And you’d deserve it to, you CIA stooge!

The Right-Wing Noise Makers will probably dismiss his entire speech as the ranting of a megalomaniacal lunatic with googly eyes and delusions of grandeur, but the veracity of every word out of Chavez’s mouth is confirmed in Chomsky’s brilliant book. Need I remind my readers that not only is Noam Chomsky a superhuman sex machine, but he’s also possesses godlike intelligence. He's a tenured Professym at MIT, has made a fortune penning lucrative books slamming the evils of capitalism, and he gives long, turgid lectures that any self-respecting intellectual would be afraid to admit they don't understand. He's brilliant! BRILLIANT! Brilliant people never lie, and there’s no such thing as an intelligent lunatic. I’m living proof of that.

http://blamebush.typepad.com/blamebush/2006/09/you_go_hugo.html

Psychoblues
08-02-2007, 05:35 AM
Hugo loves his people and resents any interference by jerks like you.

red states rule
08-02-2007, 05:36 AM
Hugo loves his people and resents any interference by jerks like you.

Is that why he kills them when they speak out against him?

theHawk
08-02-2007, 08:30 AM
I'll pass a hundred Exxons or Shells to buy gas from a Citgo. The historic and immoral profits and statements as reported by the major oil conglomerates lead me to believe they are not for an instant positively involved with the dilemmas of our planet, our peoples or our economies.



Many of you might question the morality of Hugo Chavez. Spit it out, I'd like to hear it out loud. In the meantime I'm still passing up the Exxons, Shells and disbelieving all that crap put out by BP.


Does it sound anything like Homeland Security or the Patriot Act to you as well? Why does nm have to repeat it? No imagination is my guess. Jus' plain ol' dumbass is what I call it.

You really are an America-hating nimrod aren't you? You're camparing our Patriot Act to the antics of Hugo Chavez? Nevermind the fact the Patriot Act was passed by a legal proccess by our freely elected congress, as opposed to being an order from a dictator. I wasn't aware that the Patriot Act allowed us to demolish TV stations that say bad things about our President. I wasn't aware that the Patriot Act forbids everyone from critisizing the administration. Funny how you believe its doing that, yet you're here now at this forum always badmouthing him, not to mention in this country we have illegal foreigners that hold anti-Bush rallies all the time and nothing happens to them.
And please explain how Exxon and all of our oil companies are so immoral for proving people like you who drive cars with the fuel, and explain how Citgo isn't all about profit?

Pull your head out of your ass pb. :poke:

red states rule
08-02-2007, 06:12 PM
You really are an America-hating nimrod aren't you? You're camparing our Patriot Act to the antics of Hugo Chavez? Nevermind the fact the Patriot Act was passed by a legal proccess by our freely elected congress, as opposed to being an order from a dictator. I wasn't aware that the Patriot Act allowed us to demolish TV stations that say bad things about our President. I wasn't aware that the Patriot Act forbids everyone from critisizing the administration. Funny how you believe its doing that, yet you're here now at this forum always badmouthing him, not to mention in this country we have illegal foreigners that hold anti-Bush rallies all the time and nothing happens to them.
And please explain how Exxon and all of our oil companies are so immoral for proving people like you who drive cars with the fuel, and explain how Citgo isn't all about profit?

Pull your head out of your ass pb. :poke:

Whatleft wing moonbats like PB will never admit is - oil companies make only a dime per gallon profit, while government makes about 50 to 60 cents in taxes off the same gallon of gas

Who is making a "historic and immoral profit"?

Yurt
08-02-2007, 06:38 PM
Another unanswered question here and another threat from one who can't respond otherwise.

psst, I have something to share with you











this little game started because you would not answer my question and then went a silly little charade

i won't tell anyone though

red states rule
08-02-2007, 06:40 PM
psst, I have something to share with you











this little game started because you would not answer my question and then went a silly little charade

i won't tell anyone though



Your secret is safe with me

actsnoblemartin
08-03-2007, 03:11 AM
hugo is a bigger pussy then michael moore :coffee:


In Venezuela, Speak No Ill of Hugo

Many foreigners can travel to Venezuela without a visa. But now there's a new requirement once they get there. President Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country. The comments came after the President of Mexico's ruling conservative party criticized Chavez for seeking to do away with term limits at a recent pro-democracy conference in Caracas. "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

socialism rules man, liberals are right to support chavez (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070725/wl_time/invenezuelaspeaknoillofhugo)

red states rule
08-03-2007, 04:46 AM
hugo is a bigger pussy then michael moore :coffee:

They both hate Amercia - yet love the US dollar

Yurt
08-06-2007, 09:42 PM
Why the silence from the Hugo supporters? Surely you miss your hugo rantings? Come on libs, tell us why Hugo is good and the US is bad.

red states rule
08-06-2007, 09:46 PM
Why the silence from the Hugo supporters? Surely you miss your hugo rantings? Come on libs, tell us why Hugo is good and the US is bad.

Hope you packed a lunch - you will have a long wait

red states rule
08-06-2007, 09:50 PM
Former Miss Venezuela and Sean Penn Co-star Says He’s Being Used by Chavez
By Noel Sheppard | August 4, 2007 - 17:52 ET

As Sean Penn gushed over despot Hugo Chavez Thursday, a former Miss Venezuela and previous co-star of the activist actor's was telling the Associated Press she hopes Penn "comes to his senses and he realizes that he's being used."

Movie lovers likely remember Maria Conchita Alonso as Robin Williams' girlfriend in "Moscow on the Hudson," and Arnold Schwarzenegger's in "The Running Man."

With that in mind, the Associated Press reported Thursday (emphasis added throughout):

Some Chavez opponents were angered by Penn's visit.

Cuban-born actress Maria Conchita Alonso, who grew up in Venezuela, said Penn is lending support to a "totalitarian" leader who wants increasing control of society - a charge Chavez denies.

In a phone interview from her home in Beverly Hills, California, Alonso said although she respects Penn as an actor, she hopes he "comes to his senses and he realizes that he's being used."

Alonso worked with Penn in 1988's gang movie "Colors."

According to the AP, Penn's newest role is as Chavez's useful idiot:

Hollywood star Sean Penn applauded President Hugo Chavez as the Venezuelan leader lambasted the Bush administration and demanded an end to war in Iraq.

Chavez met privately with Penn for two hours Thursday, praising the actor as "brave" for urging Americans to impeach President Bush.

"In the name of the peoples of the world, President Bush, withdraw the troops from Iraq. Enough already with so much genocide," Chavez said before an auditorium packed with his red-clad supporters.

Penn sat near the front, at times applauding and nodding in agreement.

You think Chavez was playing a street organ at the time?

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/08/04/former-miss-venezuela-sean-penn-co-star-says-he-s-being-used-chavez

Yurt
08-06-2007, 09:51 PM
Hope you packed a lunch - you will have a long wait

Have my

:popcorn:

red states rule
08-06-2007, 09:56 PM
Have my

:popcorn:

have something to wash it down with?

Yurt
08-06-2007, 09:58 PM
red states rule;100679]Former Miss Venezuela and Sean Penn Co-star Says He’s Being Used by Chavez
By Noel Sheppard | August 4, 2007 - 17:52 ET

As Sean Penn gushed over despot Hugo Chavez Thursday, a former Miss Venezuela and previous co-star of the activist actor's was telling the Associated Press she hopes Penn "comes to his senses and he realizes that he's being used."

I will not buy popcorn for this one.


Movie lovers likely remember Maria Conchita Alonso as Robin Williams' girlfriend in "Moscow on the Hudson," and Arnold Schwarzenegger's in "The Running Man."

*blushes* I do. That workout machine scene. Well, I was 14..........



With that in mind, the Associated Press reported Thursday (emphasis added throughout):

Some Chavez opponents were angered by Penn's visit.

Cuban-born actress Maria Conchita Alonso, who grew up in Venezuela, said Penn is lending support to a "totalitarian" leader who wants increasing control of society - a charge Chavez denies.

In a phone interview from her home in Beverly Hills, California, Alonso said although she respects Penn as an actor, she hopes he "comes to his senses and he realizes that he's being used."


This is the disease that permeates this country. We "respect" them, but hope they come to their senses? You think Penn thinks that way? F no. He is outside the bounds of normal decency. He will burn a flag to simply piss people off. Even if his point is not made effectively, he will do it to piss people off. Does this idiot realize that his hero hugo censors people? Maybe he does, maybe SP likes that.

red states rule
08-06-2007, 10:00 PM
I will not buy popcorn for this one.



*blushes* I do. That workout machine scene. Well, I was 14..........





This is the disease that permeates this country. We "respect" them, but hope they come to their senses? You think Penn thinks that way? F no. He is outside the bounds of normal decency. He will burn a flag to simply piss people off. Even if his point is not made effectively, he will do it to piss people off. Does this idiot realize that his hero hugo censors people? Maybe he does, maybe SP likes that.


Perhaps that is why his career is in the tank

Yurt
08-06-2007, 10:03 PM
have something to wash it down with?

fresh squeezed grapefruit juice the wife just made. but, not, i am no eating popcorn, if I were, probably a sprite or something.

Yurt
08-06-2007, 10:04 PM
Perhaps that is why his career is in the tank

he had a career?


:link:


:coffee:

red states rule
08-06-2007, 10:05 PM
fresh squeezed grapefruit juice the wife just made. but, not, i am no eating popcorn, if I were, probably a sprite or something.



Sounds good to me

red states rule
08-06-2007, 10:06 PM
he had a career?


:link:


:coffee:

a brief one - but he did have one

Yurt
08-06-2007, 10:06 PM
Sounds good to me

cheers!

red states rule
08-06-2007, 10:09 PM
cheers!

bottoms up!

Psychoblues
08-06-2007, 10:46 PM
None of this explains any reason for a concentrated hatred for Hugo Chavez. Hugo helps Americans and American ideology. Maybe this should be in the "Conspiracy" forum?

Angel Heart
08-06-2007, 10:54 PM
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/S96o6RfiRIk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/S96o6RfiRIk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


This video has generated some controversy. You be the judge;
Here are a few links that back up this video:

http://www.beyondchron.org/news/index...

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArt...

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/dis...

http://english.eluniversal.com/2006/0...

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?cont...

This is perhaps my favorite article; It is a not biass view of the situation in Venezuela (it also has a couple of polarized replies):

http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/35471/

Thre is plenty of articles in the internet regarding chavez. Some will call him a hero others a villan. As a Venezuelan I can openly say I don not agree with his policies and he is falling to tackle the venezuelan problems. (more)

Psychoblues
08-06-2007, 11:17 PM
Are your fears simply economic or do you you fear the humanitarian side of his political endeavors?

Angel Heart
08-06-2007, 11:31 PM
For myself, I don't fear him. I hate seeing what he's done with his country. He's killed it. It was once a place where art flourished.

Psychoblues
08-06-2007, 11:43 PM
Perhaps he will turn it into a country where art dies. Much like this one. Do you have a dollar for a really great jamm?

Angel Heart
08-06-2007, 11:55 PM
He's made record profits through his controlling the oil. Yet, his people are still poor... He is a typical dictator. You think he'll step down if he was elected out of office? Most likely not.

Then the crap he's put out today. He can come to our country and spout of hate about our leader but no one better do it to him... Hey pot, the kettle is calling...

Psychoblues
08-07-2007, 12:03 AM
As the Bush, Cheney, family wealth and power exceed all expectations you expect me to defend politics? You are dumber than I ever imagined.

avatar4321
08-07-2007, 12:19 AM
Hugo gets his tricks from his ol' nemesis, gwb.





You don't read much, do you, yurt?

When has the President forbidden people from criticize him and why arent you in prison?

Angel Heart
08-07-2007, 12:25 AM
Do you see Bush rounding up people who speak out against him. No... My grandmother is still spouting off that she wants him dead. But she hasn't been rounded up. Hugo is rounding up people who speak out against him.

Even Amnesty International speaks out against him:

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/Venezuela

avatar4321
08-07-2007, 12:28 AM
Hugo loves his people and resents any interference by jerks like you.

Yeah, every ruler who loves his people censors and executes his people for disagreeing with him. Its perfectly natural.

avatar4321
08-07-2007, 12:36 AM
None of this explains any reason for a concentrated hatred for Hugo Chavez. Hugo helps Americans and American ideology. Maybe this should be in the "Conspiracy" forum?

How does someone who oppresses their people and denies them all freedom help American idealogy?

Psychoblues
08-07-2007, 12:42 AM
Have you ever heard of a "free speech zone" outside of the USSR and more recently the USA under the gwb administration?


When has the President forbidden people from criticize him and why arent you in prison?

You can kid yourself but I ain't falling for your bullshit.

Ruby
08-09-2007, 03:11 PM
Do you see Bush rounding up people who speak out against him. No... My grandmother is still spouting off that she wants him dead. But she hasn't been rounded up. Hugo is rounding up people who speak out against him.

Even Amnesty International speaks out against him:

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/Venezuela

Did you take a look at how the US report looked?

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/United-States-of-America

The US actually has a much worse one that Venezuela. For Venezuela They sited a few cases that highlighted some very corrupt security officers and there were charges and convictions, but amnesty felt there werent enough in those cases. The US has a looooong list that include soldiers and corrupt police abuses, shall we pretend that Bush orchestrated and approved of those corrupt act as we seem to be doing about Chavez?

Go ahead, read the report on Venezuela in full and then do the same for the US report and tell me what you think.

The reason there is such a push of propaganda out there is simple, the latin american region is not allowed to self determine and form their economies (and their resources) without making those policies tailored to american interests. Everytime a leader arises in that region who does this, they become the devil incarnate.

Chavez will take measures to protect his nation from another US backed coup. We staged one, people died... but it didnt last long because the people of Venezuela wouldnt accept it. Thats democracy in action!

The problems in Venezuela are deep rooted and will take more time than anyone would like to improve, but they are making strides and have made tremendous improvements.

Gaffer
08-09-2007, 03:39 PM
Did you take a look at how the US report looked?

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/United-States-of-America

The US actually has a much worse one that Venezuela. For Venezuela They sited a few cases that highlighted some very corrupt security officers and there were charges and convictions, but amnesty felt there werent enough in those cases. The US has a looooong list that include soldiers and corrupt police abuses, shall we pretend that Bush orchestrated and approved of those corrupt act as we seem to be doing about Chavez?

Go ahead, read the report on Venezuela in full and then do the same for the US report and tell me what you think.

The reason there is such a push of propaganda out there is simple, the latin american region is not allowed to self determine and form their economies (and their resources) without making those policies tailored to american interests. Everytime a leader arises in that region who does this, they become the devil incarnate.

Chavez will take measures to protect his nation from another US backed coup. We staged one, people died... but it didnt last long because the people of Venezuela wouldnt accept it. Thats democracy in action!

The problems in Venezuela are deep rooted and will take more time than anyone would like to improve, but they are making strides and have made tremendous improvements.

Exactly when did this coup supposedly take place? You have a link or some sort of evidence that it occurred? The problems with venezuela are called hugo chevez.

Ruby
08-10-2007, 12:52 AM
Exactly when did this coup supposedly take place? You have a link or some sort of evidence that it occurred? The problems with venezuela are called hugo chevez.

LOL, you dont even KNOW there was a coup in 2002 that lasted a mere 48 hours????? Ok its pretty obvious you arent very well informed about Venezuela at all then.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1867


4/18/02
When elements of the Venezuelan military forced president Hugo Chavez from office last week, the editorial boards of several major U.S. newspapers followed the U.S. government's lead and greeted the news with enthusiasm.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d'%C3%A9tat_attempt


The Venezuelan coup attempt of 2002 was a failed coup d'état on April 11, 2002

http://www.venezuelafoia.info/english.html

This link proves US involvement and does through the paper trail and money, documentation was tirelessly tracked down by a lawyer using the "Freedom of Information Act".


On April 12, 2002, White House spokesperson Ari Fleischer stated:

“Let me share with you the administration's thoughts about what's taking place in Venezuela. It remains a somewhat fluid situation. But yesterday's events in Venezuela resulted in a change in the government and the assumption of a transitional authority until new elections can be held.

The details still are unclear. We know that the action encouraged by the Chavez government provoked this crisis. According to the best information available, the Chavez government suppressed peaceful demonstrations. Government supporters, on orders from the Chavez government, fired on unarmed, peaceful protestors, resulting in 10 killed and 100 wounded. The Venezuelan military and the police refused to fire on the peaceful demonstrators and refused to support the government's role in such human rights violations. The government also tried to prevent independent news media from reporting on these events.
The results of these events are now that President Chavez has resigned the presidency. Before resigning, he dismissed the vice president and the cabinet, and a transitional civilian government has been installed. This government has promised early elections.


Was the whitehouse spokesperson talking about a fictional coup?

The coup was also caught on film by british journalists who were there to do an interview with Chavez so they stayed and documented it all. The documentary is called "The revolution will not be televised".

Enough proof for ya that it took place? Sheesh, you will try to act as if you KNOW what your talking about on this issue but then come and make it obvious you are horribly uninformed on even the basics of Venezuela.

emmett
08-10-2007, 12:56 AM
Seems to me when Pat made his comment everyone thought him foolish. Hmmmmmmmm!!!! I'd say he had it nailed.

Ruby
08-10-2007, 01:10 AM
Seems to me when Pat made his comment everyone thought him foolish. Hmmmmmmmm!!!! I'd say he had it nailed.

What a sad thing to advocate assassinations of other nations leaders and not respecting their right to self-determination and soveriegnty. Venezuelans have the right to choose their own leader without interferrence from an outside nation, every nation does.

Said1
08-11-2007, 01:00 PM
What a sad thing to advocate assassinations of other nations leaders and not respecting their right to self-determination and soveriegnty. Venezuelans have the right to choose their own leader without interferrence from an outside nation, every nation does.

And the saddest part is, how soon after he was 'democraically' elected did he propose changes to Venezuela's constituion making him the 'leader' indefinetly. That is, as long as the 'people' want him..........Parliament is set to vote on the matter next week. Viva le Socialist Revolution! :laugh2:

truthmatters
08-11-2007, 01:06 PM
It is none of our business who they choose is it?

Said1
08-11-2007, 01:11 PM
It is none of our business who they choose is it?

LOL. :lol:

Wow. I guess you told me, or whomever.

Why isn't my business?

manu1959
08-11-2007, 01:29 PM
i will never understand people that show more respect to countries other than their own....and when their country does nothing more or less than the country they are defending....they rip thier own country....

the world doesn't hate the US the world laughs at the US.....

as for chavez he is the new castro....

Gaffer
08-11-2007, 02:21 PM
What a sad thing to advocate assassinations of other nations leaders and not respecting their right to self-determination and soveriegnty. Venezuelans have the right to choose their own leader without interferrence from an outside nation, every nation does.

Yes they do, and chevez has taken that right away from them by declaring himself president for life and abolishing the parliment. As for assassinations. I see nothing wrong with taking out a dictator who may someday be a major threat to our country. He's already a threat to his own. But then your too busy hating America to be concerned about that.

red states rule
08-11-2007, 05:40 PM
Did you take a look at how the US report looked?

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/United-States-of-America

The US actually has a much worse one that Venezuela. For Venezuela They sited a few cases that highlighted some very corrupt security officers and there were charges and convictions, but amnesty felt there werent enough in those cases. The US has a looooong list that include soldiers and corrupt police abuses, shall we pretend that Bush orchestrated and approved of those corrupt act as we seem to be doing about Chavez?

Go ahead, read the report on Venezuela in full and then do the same for the US report and tell me what you think.

The reason there is such a push of propaganda out there is simple, the latin american region is not allowed to self determine and form their economies (and their resources) without making those policies tailored to american interests. Everytime a leader arises in that region who does this, they become the devil incarnate.

Chavez will take measures to protect his nation from another US backed coup. We staged one, people died... but it didnt last long because the people of Venezuela wouldnt accept it. Thats democracy in action!

The problems in Venezuela are deep rooted and will take more time than anyone would like to improve, but they are making strides and have made tremendous improvements.

Hugo sounds just like Pelosi, Reid, Durbin, Dean, and the rest of the Dem party when it comes to his hatred for Pres Bush

No wonder the left loves this nut

Ruby
08-12-2007, 03:06 AM
And the saddest part is, how soon after he was 'democraically' elected did he propose changes to Venezuela's constituion making him the 'leader' indefinetly. That is, as long as the 'people' want him..........Parliament is set to vote on the matter next week. Viva le Socialist Revolution! :laugh2:

Why shouldnt they have a person available to vote for as long as they like? Whats the point of trying to make sure he is not even in the running when elections roll around? Whats so democratic about removing peoples options or reducing their choices?

Ruby
08-12-2007, 03:13 AM
Yes they do, and chevez has taken that right away from them by declaring himself president for life and abolishing the parliment. As for assassinations. I see nothing wrong with taking out a dictator who may someday be a major threat to our country. He's already a threat to his own. But then your too busy hating America to be concerned about that.

What wild accusations and untrue as well, but you already did prove how much you DONT know about Venezuela. You didnt even know about the coup a few years back yet want to pretend you know somthing about their political situation.

He didnt declare himself president for life, you are simply lying. People now have the option of keeping a leader around as long as they like or they can vote him out. Thats an expansion of options, not a limitation.

He is only a threat to US economic dominance in Venezuela and the latin american region and thats a good thing. Venezuela has the same right any nation does to self determine and to determine their own economic policies.

He has popular backing and the people of Venezuela have reaffirmed this in numerous elections already.

Ruby
08-12-2007, 03:18 AM
i will never understand people that show more respect to countries other than their own....and when their country does nothing more or less than the country they are defending....they rip thier own country....

the world doesn't hate the US the world laughs at the US.....

as for chavez he is the new castro....

You made a bad assumption. I would get rid of term limits. If we get an elected representative that is doing a good job, I would love to be able to vote for that candidate as long as they are willing to do the job. So I wouldnt rip my own country for doing that.

What exactly do you think people are praising Chavez for but would complain about their own nation doing it? A specific example would be nice cause I cant think of anything really.

KarlMarx
08-12-2007, 04:22 AM
In Venezuela, Speak No Ill of Hugo

Many foreigners can travel to Venezuela without a visa. But now there's a new requirement once they get there. President Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country. The comments came after the President of Mexico's ruling conservative party criticized Chavez for seeking to do away with term limits at a recent pro-democracy conference in Caracas. "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

socialism rules man, liberals are right to support chavez (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070725/wl_time/invenezuelaspeaknoillofhugo)

Isn't speaking ill of a president exactly what Hurricane Hugo did a few months back in front of the UN?

Perhaps we ought to deport him to Cuba and give him a taste of the Cuban medical system or of Cuban justice.

red states rule
08-12-2007, 05:33 AM
Isn't speaking ill of a president exactly what Hurricane Hugo did a few months back in front of the UN?

Perhaps we ought to deport him to Cuba and give him a taste of the Cuban medical system or of Cuban justice.

Libs looked at him during the UN speech and said, "Hey stop working our corner"

Ruby
08-12-2007, 06:33 AM
Isn't speaking ill of a president exactly what Hurricane Hugo did a few months back in front of the UN?

Perhaps we ought to deport him to Cuba and give him a taste of the Cuban medical system or of Cuban justice.

Chavez spoke in an international forum.

The problem and organizations that Chavez will go after are ones like USAID and NED, those are organizations set up by the US and are instrumental in US staged coups in the region and specifically the one that took place in Venezuela a few years ago.

Deport him to Cuba? He is Venezuelan and not an illegal entry into the US so your comments come off as really badly informed and show an inability to at least come up with some sort of intelligent dig. Venezuela also DOES take advantage of the talent coming out of Cuba in the medical field, he has a deal for low cost oil in trade for cuban doctors and medical personal who go to Venezuela to provide medical care.

I dont fault Bush or any american politician for saying what they really think about any other world leader or where they say it, its the invasions, bombings and coups the US engages in that I object to. Let me know when Chavez starts threatening to "shock and awe" us for having WMD.

red states rule
08-12-2007, 06:34 AM
Chavez spoke in an international forum.

The problem and organizations that Chavez will go after are ones like USAID and NED, those are organizations set up by the US and are instrumental in US staged coups in the region and specifically the one that took place in Venezuela a few years ago.

Deport him to Cuba? He is Venezuelan and not an illegal entry into the US so your comments come off as really badly informed and show an inability to at least come up with some sort of intelligent dig. Venezuela also DOES take advantage of the talent coming out of Cuba in the medical field, he has a deal for low cost oil in trade for cuban doctors and medical personal who go to Venezuela to provide medical care.

I dont fault Bush or any american politician for saying what they really think about any other world leader or where they say it, its the invasions, bombings and coups the US engages in that I object to. Let me know when Chavez starts threatening to "shock and awe" us for having WMD.

and he used the DNC talking points anout Pres Bush and Amercia

Hugo could be the next DNC Chairman

Ruby
08-12-2007, 07:17 AM
and he used the DNC talking points anout Pres Bush and Amercia

Hugo could be the next DNC Chairman

Just a weak unimaginative partisan blurb. Both democrats and republicans are supporting a neo-liberalism economic policy. Its in stark contrast to Chavez's stance on economic policy.

red states rule
08-12-2007, 07:20 AM
Just a weak unimaginative partisan blurb. Both democrats and republicans are supporting a neo-liberalism economic policy. Its in stark contrast to Chavez's stance on economic policy.

Hugo said the same things about Pres Bush and Amercia - as the Dems were saying

With record low poll numbers Dems have pulled the hate back abit - not by much - but they are running scared

Ruby
08-12-2007, 09:16 AM
Hugo said the same things about Pres Bush and Amercia - as the Dems were saying

With record low poll numbers Dems have pulled the hate back abit - not by much - but they are running scared

You arent exactly a deep thinker are ya? You have no idea how to operate outside the very narrow perimeter of democrat vs republican do ya? I can tell you dont have the slightest clue on what the issues here really are.

red states rule
08-12-2007, 09:18 AM
You arent exactly a deep thinker are ya? You have no idea how to operate outside the very narrow perimeter of democrat vs republican do ya? I can tell you dont have the slightest clue on what the issues here really are.

I think, therefore I vote Republican

Libs vote with their hate and rage

Said1
08-12-2007, 05:53 PM
Why shouldnt they have a person available to vote for as long as they like? Whats the point of trying to make sure he is not even in the running when elections roll around? Whats so democratic about removing peoples options or reducing their choices?

You're point is taken, however, indefinet re-election seems a little drastic, IMHO.

At this point in time, the people are allowed to vote him out at any before his term ends, which is right given to them in their constitution. I'm going to assume that part of the document will not be ammended, indefinet presidency and all.

Chavez strongly backed and was obviously involved in implementing the current constitution which allowed for longer presidential terms AND introduced 2 term limits. I guess you can't kill a guy for changing his mind, eh?

Ruby
08-13-2007, 12:58 AM
You're point is taken, however, indefinet re-election seems a little drastic, IMHO.

At this point in time, the people are allowed to vote him out at any before his term ends, which is right given to them in their constitution. I'm going to assume that part of the document will not be ammended, indefinet presidency and all.

Chavez strongly backed and was obviously involved in implementing the current constitution which allowed for longer presidential terms AND introduced 2 term limits. I guess you can't kill a guy for changing his mind, eh?

The people always have a right to get rid of him, and they dont have to wait for elections if that is their choice. He has strengthened that portion actually. If we arent going to limit our choices, why not indefinitely keep more options available to us? He didnt remove elections or the tools to get rid of a leader they dont like.

I hope that Chave,z as well as the whole nation continue to change their minds about things when they can see a better way. Things are always changing and we continually need to make adjustments in efforts to do things better.

Sitarro
08-13-2007, 02:07 AM
Are your fears simply economic or do you you fear the humanitarian side of his political endeavors?

It is amazing how naive you are.... I would expect such idiocy from a young brainless college student but really Psycho, you are pathetic.

Sitarro
08-13-2007, 02:29 AM
Did you take a look at how the US report looked?

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/United-States-of-America

The US actually has a much worse one that Venezuela. For Venezuela They sited a few cases that highlighted some very corrupt security officers and there were charges and convictions, but amnesty felt there werent enough in those cases. The US has a looooong list that include soldiers and corrupt police abuses, shall we pretend that Bush orchestrated and approved of those corrupt act as we seem to be doing about Chavez?

Go ahead, read the report on Venezuela in full and then do the same for the US report and tell me what you think.

The reason there is such a push of propaganda out there is simple, the latin american region is not allowed to self determine and form their economies (and their resources) without making those policies tailored to american interests. Everytime a leader arises in that region who does this, they become the devil incarnate.

Chavez will take measures to protect his nation from another US backed coup. We staged one, people died... but it didnt last long because the people of Venezuela wouldnt accept it. Thats democracy in action!

The problems in Venezuela are deep rooted and will take more time than anyone would like to improve, but they are making strides and have made tremendous improvements.



Like the UN, Amnesty International is a joke and a bad one at that.
Hugo has broken all contracts with U.S. oil companies that performed all of the labor and engineering that the idiot needed(companies doing what the pathetic third world dimwits could never figure out for themselves). He is another Saddam Hussien and you probably think that is just fine. What communist loving dictator don't you like.

That avatar of yours is adorably naive. I bet you believe Utopia really exists, don't you? You might want to PM Psycho, your lack of analytical thought sounds identical to his lack of common sense.

red states rule
08-13-2007, 03:40 AM
It is amazing how naive you are.... I would expect such idiocy from a young brainless college student but really Psycho, you are pathetic.

and that is one of his good days

Ruby
08-13-2007, 09:23 AM
Like the UN, Amnesty International is a joke and a bad one at that.
Hugo has broken all contracts with U.S. oil companies that performed all of the labor and engineering that the idiot needed(companies doing what the pathetic third world dimwits could never figure out for themselves). He is another Saddam Hussien and you probably think that is just fine. What communist loving dictator don't you like.

That avatar of yours is adorably naive. I bet you believe Utopia really exists, don't you? You might want to PM Psycho, your lack of analytical thought sounds identical to his lack of common sense.

Ah so the human rights report was fine and not challenged when it critisized Venezuela but when it comes to light that the report on the US is much worse...all the sudden they arent a good source. LOL! Priceless really.

Yep Chavez broke contracts that needed to be broken and the oil belongs to Venezuela and they seem to be taking care of it just fine.

How ridiculous to call him another saddam, how bout you try backing that up with somthing besides an unsubstantiated accusation, or is that a foreign concept to you?

Yea I am sure concepts like racism, terrorism, war, poverty and violence are more to your liking and you will try to pretend that makes you some sort of "realist". What a crock that schtick is!

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 09:27 AM
Yep Chavez broke contracts that needed to be broken and the oil belongs to Venezuela and they seem to be taking care of it just fine.

Can you please explain to me why said contracts "needed" to be broken?

Ruby
08-13-2007, 09:35 AM
Can you please explain to me why said contracts "needed" to be broken?

They were sucking out too much of the profits via overcharging and corruption. The companies werent paying their fair share in taxes. Bottomline, the oil profits werent reaching the population of Venezuela which desperately needs it and is entitled to it since it is their oil.

Whether you agree with the decision or not, it comes down to the fact that is THEIR OIL and they make the decisions regarding it and they have a RIGHT to.

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 09:43 AM
They were sucking out too much of the profits via overcharging and corruption. The companies werent paying their fair share in taxes. Bottomline, the oil profits werent reaching the population of Venezuela which desperately needs it and is entitled to it since it is their oil.

Whether you agree with the decision or not, it comes down to the fact that is THEIR OIL and they make the decisions regarding it and they have a RIGHT to.

Were these companies in direct violation of the contracts? Was a corruption charge found to be true by a court of law? Or were the contracts rescinded without violation and a court intervention? I'm curious if these contracts were nullified legally, or if they were just cut out of a legal contract.

And whether it's their oil or not, they should be legally obligated to fulfill any contracts unless the contracts were deemed null and void by a court order. Was this done?

I honestly don't know the answers but would love to know if they went through proper channels or just decided to use a heavy hand.

Yurt
08-13-2007, 09:44 AM
They were sucking out too much of the profits via overcharging and corruption. The companies werent paying their fair share in taxes. Bottomline, the oil profits werent reaching the population of Venezuela which desperately needs it and is entitled to it since it is their oil.

Whether you agree with the decision or not, it comes down to the fact that is THEIR OIL and they make the decisions regarding it and they have a RIGHT to.

And THEY contracted with the oil companies to get the oil out of the ground, which THEY can not do. Chavez is a greedy bastard that took the $$ to fund his own revolution, not the poor. You have no proof that he is actually redistributing the money to the poor and no proof for you accusation that they weren' paying "fair" taxes.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 09:53 AM
Were these companies in direct violation of the contracts? Was a corruption charge found to be true by a court of law? Or were the contracts rescinded without violation and a court intervention? I'm curious if these contracts were nullified legally, or if they were just cut out of a legal contract.

And whether it's their oil or not, they should be legally obligated to fulfill any contracts unless the contracts were deemed null and void by a court order. Was this done?

I honestly don't know the answers but would love to know if they went through proper channels or just decided to use a heavy hand.

The laws they would be subject to would be Venezuelan laws. The international community has already affirmed that ANY AND ALL nations have the right to nationalize their resources at any time. That is what Venezuela did and now have the SAME situation Norway does. The contracts were deemed unfair *by the nation of Venezuela* and nullified by the Nation of Venezuela and the companies were offered new contracts that the oil companies didnt like and did not have to enter into, so they end up with no contract at all.

Here is a small blurb but pretty much explains it all.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/3/170036.shtml


President Hugo Chavez has tightened his grip on Venezuela's energy resources, following through on threats to punish international companies that resist government control of the nation's oil fields.

Venezuela seized two oil fields from France's Total SA and Italy's Eni SpA after the companies failed to comply with a government demand that operations be turned over to state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA, or PDVSA, Oil Minister Rafael Ramirez said Monday.

"Those two companies resisted adjusting to our laws," he said at a news conference. "Those fields return to total, absolute control by Petroleos de Venezuela."

Until PDVSA took control of the oil fields Saturday, Total and Eni had operated them under contract. Some other companies, including Exxon Mobil Corp., decided to sell their stakes among the 32 Venezuelan oil properties rather than go along with the new terms.


and another pertinent portion


Private oil companies had run 32 oil fields in Venezuela independently under contract with the government. But Venezuela demanded last year those contracts be changed into so-called "mixed company" joint ventures that give PDVSA a minimum 60-percent stake.

Many companies have accepted the new terms without a fight, apparently betting the ventures would still be profitable even with a larger share of revenue going to the state.


Its pretty basic, the companies were given one full year to make the adjustment or leave the country....some chose to stay and comply and some left. The revenue needs to reach the people and benefit the nation, the situation in Venezuela has been pretty desperate for decades and this move NEEDED to happen to help the slow process of changing that.

I should add this quote as well and you can see more of why it was needed.


The new joint ventures will allow PDVSA to save $31.34 billion over the next 12 years, PDVSA director Eulogio del Pino told reporters. Under the old contracts, PDVSA was forced to buy oil from the companies at five times the cost of extraction.

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 10:02 AM
The laws they would be subject to would be Venezuelan laws. The international community has already affirmed that ANY AND ALL nations have the right to nationalize their resources at any time. That is what Venezuela did and now have the SAME situation Norway does. The contracts were deemed unfair *by the nation of Venezuela* and nullified by the Nation of Venezuela and the companies were offered new contracts that the oil companies didnt like and did not have to enter into, so they end up with no contract at all.

Here is a small blurb but pretty much explains it all.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/3/170036.shtml



and another pertinent portion



Its pretty basic, the companies were given one full year to make the adjustment or leave the country....some chose to stay and comply and some left. The revenue needs to reach the people and benefit the nation, the situation in Venezuela has been pretty desperate for decades and this move NEEDED to happen to help the slow process of changing that.

I should add this quote as well and you can see more of why it was needed.

Can you please link me to a court decision in Venezuela where they were deemed unfair and nullified? I'm curious why they would sign a contract and then later claim it was unfair. Generally one party cannot simply kill a contract they later deem unfair, unless a court stands in and kills the contract. Or, of course, if the nation that signed the contracts gets their military to intervene and just outright declares the contracts nullified.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:05 AM
And THEY contracted with the oil companies to get the oil out of the ground, which THEY can not do. Chavez is a greedy bastard that took the $$ to fund his own revolution, not the poor. You have no proof that he is actually redistributing the money to the poor and no proof for you accusation that they weren' paying "fair" taxes.


They can extract it themselves and they can also contract out to other firms who can if they wish. The contracts were not fair and the money was not reaching the people. The money is now currently being used to fund many projects that are up and running.

They now have subsidized grocers where the poor can buy groceries at extremely low prices, state funded schools, medical care, building projects etc.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/08/Worldandnation/Venezuela_s_oil_wealt.shtml


Venezuela's booming oil wealth is bankrolling its most ambitious effort in decades to help the poor, an integral part of President Hugo Chavez's "social revolution" that is drawing both praise and skepticism while he strengthens ties with Cuba and increasingly clashes with the United States.

Critics say Chavez is ruining Venezuela's oil industry and squandering the proceeds of high oil prices on programs that won't do away with poverty in the long run.

His supporters say no president in Venezuela's modern history has given so much to the poor.

"Before it was the rich who benefited from oil. Now oil is helping a lot of people," said William Riascos, a 31-year-old cutting sugar cane on fields planted by the state oil company outside the western town of Sabaneta, where Chavez was born.

"Here there used to be nothing. Now there is all of this," Riascos said, sweeping a hand across a vast expanse of cane.

Under Chavez, the state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA spent more than $3.7-billion last year on social and agricultural programs, housing and other projects - about a third of its earnings.

Chavez has promised to keep up the spending.

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 10:07 AM
The contracts were not fair and the money was not reaching the people.

Do you think they read the contracts before they sign onto them? Why do you think they thought it was fair at the time, only to claim otherwise at a later date?

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:10 AM
Can you please link me to a court decision in Venezuela where they were deemed unfair and nullified? I'm curious why they would sign a contract and then later claim it was unfair. Generally one party cannot simply kill a contract they later deem unfair, unless a court stands in and kills the contract. Or, of course, if the nation that signed the contracts gets their military to intervene and just outright declares the contracts nullified.

The contracts were all signed BEFORE Chavez came to power so he didnt sign them and then nullify them.

Venezuela NATIONALIZED its oil and this again, is affirmed to be the right of any nation to do. Any business doing business in a nation thats based on the resources of that nation always risks losing that since the nation has the right to NATIONALIZE it at any time.

Who exactly do you think has the right to tell Venezuela what they can do with their oil and why they should have more right than Venezuelans themselves? There is no reason to hold that nation to contracts that were signed during times of puppet regimes who catered to the wealthy and not the nation.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:13 AM
Do you think they read the contracts before they sign onto them? Why do you think they thought it was fair at the time, only to claim otherwise at a later date?


The previous leadership who signed them understood the contracts just fine and they understood they were selling out the people of Venezuela to favor mulit-national interests, some elites in Venezuela and themselves. I am sure they hoped they could remain in power indefinitely and keep those contracts just as they were.

Obviously the people of Venezuela decided a change was neccessary and back Chavez and his programs and thats why they have changed so many things.

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 10:17 AM
The contracts were all signed BEFORE Chavez came to power so he didnt sign them and then nullify them.

Venezuela NATIONALIZED its oil and this again, is affirmed to be the right of any nation to do. Any business doing business in a nation thats based on the resources of that nation always risks losing that since the nation has the right to NATIONALIZE it at any time.

Who exactly do you think has the right to tell Venezuela what they can do with their oil and why they should have more right than Venezuelans themselves? There is no reason to hold that nation to contracts that were signed during times of puppet regimes who catered to the wealthy and not the nation.

Chavez represents the nation, and it was the nation that entered into a contract with foreign oil companies. All you've done is give sound reasoning as to why nobody should enter into contracts with countries that have no intention of living up to their end. If they don't want others getting involved in their oil business, then they shouldn't enter into contracts with them. The foreign companies should rip down all the work they did and leave them hanging. Oh, that's right, they can't, as the military intervened.

So, by your logic, once a new president is elected in '08, he/she should reserve the right to nullify any contracts our government has entered into, because many consider the Bush administration a "regime"?

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 10:19 AM
The previous leadership who signed them understood the contracts just fine and they understood they were selling out the people of Venezuela to favor mulit-national interests, some elites in Venezuela and themselves. I am sure they hoped they could remain in power indefinitely and keep those contracts just as they were.

Obviously the people of Venezuela decided a change was neccessary and back Chavez and his programs and thats why they have changed so many things.

Proof for your first paragraph? Or is it just rhetoric?

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:22 AM
Proof for your first paragraph? Or is it just rhetoric?

Common sense tells me they understood those contracts just fine and intended on keeping them but they arent in power in Venezuela anymore. It dosent matter to me if you are of the opinion they just didnt understand the contracts they signed...not sure why or if it even matters.

Chavez isnt the one who signed them and the Venezuelan people certainly backed Chavezs plans for the nation and the nations oil resource.

Here is a link with a few question and answers with the man that did the renegotiations.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_20/b3984015.htm


Do you think you broke contracts when you renegotiated the operating service agreements?
We didn't break a contract. We did not consider [the operating service agreements] legal. You can't break something not constitutionally legal. In practice these were concessions, not contracts.

After the final decision was taken, one option we had was to cancel all the operations of those fields and go to legal discussions with every company. But we didn't want to do that. We considered that the companies were in a transparent bidding process and had done a lot of investment in this country. They had the right to [change these contracts to joint ventures]. ExxonMobil though, thought [this approach] was illegal. Every company that signed now thinks they did the right thing.

Why didn't ENI and Total sign?
Those two companies were trying to recover the whole [value of the contracts]. We recognized only investment up to the time of [the end of the contract].


More Q&A in the link of course.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:28 AM
Chavez represents the nation, and it was the nation that entered into a contract with foreign oil companies. All you've done is give sound reasoning as to why nobody should enter into contracts with countries that have no intention of living up to their end. If they don't want others getting involved in their oil business, then they shouldn't enter into contracts with them. The foreign companies should rip down all the work they did and leave them hanging. Oh, that's right, they can't, as the military intervened.

So, by your logic, once a new president is elected in '08, he/she should reserve the right to nullify any contracts our government has entered into, because many consider the Bush administration a "regime"?

Yes a nation can nullify contracts they deem unfair, unconstitutional and when you are IN a nation, you have to abide by the laws of that nation and they dont have to grandfather anything either if they dont want. If they DIDNT have this right then many nations who were swindled or badly lead by corrupt leaders would be stuck with unfair circumstances for decades to come.

Military is used for defense of the nation, defending the nations resources and lively-hood is certainly acceptable.

In the US... yes when there is a newly elected leader and if its determined that by US law the contracts are unfair to the american people, unconstitutional or violate us or our interests in any way then of COURSE we should nullify them immediately and would be within our rights to do so.

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 10:31 AM
Common sense tells me they understood those contracts just fine and intended on keeping them but they arent in power in Venezuela anymore. It dosent matter to me if you are of the opinion they just didnt understand the contracts they signed...not sure why or if it even matters.

Well, I just hope the USA doesn't follow in the footsteps of the scourge known as Chavez. I'm glad to live in a nation where we believe in due process and laws. Imagine the backlash if Bush sent our military to intervene at any foreign based companies and simply nullified the contracts because he felt they were unfair?

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 10:33 AM
In the US... yes when there is a newly elected leader and if its determined that by US law the contracts are unfair to the american people, unconstitutional or violate us or our interests in any way then of COURSE we should nullify them immediately and would be within our rights to do so.

Can you cite instances where the US declared contracts nullified and used military intervention against foreign companies working under contract with the US government?

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:40 AM
Well, I just hope the USA doesn't follow in the footsteps of the scourge known as Chavez. I'm glad to live in a nation where we believe in due process and laws. Imagine the backlash if Bush sent our military to intervene at any foreign based companies and simply nullified the contracts because he felt they were unfair?

The military only took over VENEZUELAN oil fields, he did not go into foreign lands with his military. Foreign based company isnt about to trump national rights and laws. It is due process according to Venezuelan constitution which the contracts are in violation of. Those contracts violate the nationalized oil resource and they were offered a renegotiated deal that would still allow the companies to profit, just not as they had previously and had a choice on which way they wanted to go.

Yea, I do think people would completely be baffled if Bush nullified the contracts that are ripping off the american tax payer....I dont suspect he will be placing the needs of the citizens above those of his elite corp buddies anytime soon.

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 10:43 AM
Yea, I do think people would completely be baffled if Bush nullified the contracts that are ripping off the american tax payer....I dont suspect he will be placing the needs of the citizens above those of his elite corp buddies anytime soon.

Are you now just spouting rhetoric, or are you implying we are currently under contract with foreign companies in an unfair manner to our nation? And if so, do you feel a democratic elected President will nullify said contracts? Can you please cite specific contracts you might believe to fit into this category?

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:44 AM
Can you cite instances where the US declared contracts nullified and used military intervention against foreign companies working under contract with the US government?

I dont think we have ever done it and I doubt we will anytime soon. I dont think the american citizen or their needs are a top priorty in the US govt. If we ended up with a govt that put the citizens first we would be nationalizing our resources and nullifying the contracts that are ripping off the american tax payer and if companies were dumb enough to refuse to get off OUR PROPERTY then I wouldnt object to our military removing them from it.

Sitarro
08-13-2007, 10:46 AM
Ah so the human rights report was fine and not challenged when it critisized Venezuela but when it comes to light that the report on the US is much worse...all the sudden they arent a good source. LOL! Priceless really.



Sorry Ruby, I never endorsed any findings from that sham organization.... you might as well get Al Sharpton to publish human rights violations, you'll get something just as biased. Amnesty International.....Bullshit International.



Yep Chavez broke contracts that needed to be broken and the oil belongs to Venezuela and they seem to be taking care of it just fine.


So you feel that if it's a Western capitalist corporation that works for profit, their contracts are nul in void. Just as his useless friends, the shitheads in the Middle East, he has reaped the rewards of people and equipment with ideas and capabilities much more superior to anything that asswipe could ever dream of. You pretend that we steal oil from those that just happen to be born a thousand feet above it.....that isn't true. We discovered it, drilled for it, pumped it to the surface, refined it into useable formulas, invented the equipment that provided a use for it and then made a bunch of dildoes rich by buying it from them....... how are we the bad guys? They are the ones that have stolen our equipment and technologies to do something with oil that would still be underground if it wasn't for us. Iraq is a great example. Saddam made billions off of the oil for food program, what did he do with it? He bought weapons for the army that would insure he stayed in power and built 35 more palace complexes for himself..... all while starving and torturing his own people. I'm sure you thought the elections that kept him in power were legit too. And how was the structure of the oil industry he stole from Western companies...... in very sad disrepair. Here he was making billions off of an industry he literally stole from those that owned it and he didn't even spend the money to keep it up....... very small brained, typical of tin horned dictators...... Chavez is just as stupid.



How ridiculous to call him another saddam, how bout you try backing that up with somthing besides an unsubstantiated accusation, or is that a foreign concept to you?


He is kissing the asses of the worst dictators around the world in order to secure some sense of power (he thinks) over the United States. If the United States wanted that paranoid little troll dead, he would be dead. Saddam was just as paranoid...... I guess that fixing elections to make sure you stay in power doesn't make one feel that secure.

Chavez is looking to expand his military, just as Saddam did, and he is selling his ass to the communist devil. He makes plenty of promises to the poor(looks a lot like a U.S. Democrat campaigner in that way) which helps him keep a bunch of people chanting his name for the cameras..... it's doubtful that anyone with any sense thinks he is good for their country. Making an enemy of a country (the United States, seems only Presidential haters like Psycho and nimrods like him are impressed)that not only is incredibly powerful but also brings him billions doesn't seem all that bright.



Yea I am sure concepts like racism, terrorism, war, poverty and violence are more to your liking and you will try to pretend that makes you some sort of "realist". What a crock that schtick is!


These are all such very tired accusations against the greatest country on the planet that has tried, at their own expense, to spread freedom, feed the hungry, provide defense for the defenseless and work towards the betterment of the entire planet...... you are a fool for even bringing up such crap.

jimnyc
08-13-2007, 10:48 AM
I dont think we have ever done it and I doubt we will anytime soon. I dont think the american citizen or their needs are a top priorty in the US govt. If we ended up with a govt that put the citizens first we would be nationalizing our resources and nullifying the contracts that are ripping off the american tax payer and if companies were dumb enough to refuse to get off OUR PROPERTY then I wouldnt object to our military removing them from it.

Just as you claimed the people of Venezuela elected Chavez, we too have elected our leaders. If the US citizens feel they are being ripped off by contracts our government has entered into, can you please cite these contracts? And do you feel a newly elected administration, by the people, will nullify these contracts?

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:49 AM
Are you now just spouting rhetoric, or are you implying we are currently under contract with foreign companies in an unfair manner to our nation? And if so, do you feel a democratic elected President will nullify said contracts? Can you please cite specific contracts you might believe to fit into this category?

I dont think a democrat is gonna do anything to improve the US situation no.

I am implying that the Govt, both democrat and republican alike dont act in the best interests of the people.

PostmodernProphet
08-13-2007, 10:50 AM
The military only took over VENEZUELAN oil fields

if that were true, it wouldn't be as bad....but they also took over the oil rigs, pipelines, and refineries that the private corporations had built and paid for......

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:53 AM
Just as you claimed the people of Venezuela elected Chavez, we too have elected our leaders. If the US citizens feel they are being ripped off by contracts our government has entered into, can you please cite these contracts? And do you feel a newly elected administration, by the people, will nullify these contracts?


I think ALL the contracts they entered into for the invasion and rebuilding of Iraq is a pretty large list as it is. I dont think a new admin will do anything about it and will carry out the same policy but just talk as if they arent.

But you are indeed right, the US votes and the behavior of the govt is up to us to control so if we truly want a govt that would change things, then we will vote one in to do so. I just dont believe that we will do so.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:54 AM
if that were true, it wouldn't be as bad....but they also took over the oil rigs, pipelines, and refineries that the private corporations had built and paid for......


You should read the link, companies who didnt want to stay were compensated for that stuff as it was called their "investments". Their problem wasnt about that stuff, their problem was they wanted a bigger percentage cut than the Nation was willing to give.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 10:58 AM
Sitarro, feel free to live in such oversimplified made for tv silliness. We have no right to Venezuelans oil, the companies dont have a right to it either. It belongs to Venezuela.

manu1959
08-13-2007, 11:05 AM
Sitarro, feel free to live in such oversimplified made for tv silliness. We have no right to Venezuelans oil, the companies dont have a right to it either. It belongs to Venezuela.

actually it belonged to a private company that purchased the land and spent billions to get it out of the ground.....chavez took their company and all their assest and made it his .....

PostmodernProphet
08-13-2007, 11:08 AM
You should read the link, companies who didnt want to stay were compensated for that stuff as it was called their "investments".

ah yes....how highly did Chavez value their investments.....

manu1959
08-13-2007, 11:11 AM
ah yes....how highly did Chavez value their investments.....

this is the same as the US govt......taking your house for the good of the nation to build a strip mall and condos.....

Ruby
08-13-2007, 11:16 AM
actually it belonged to a private company that purchased the land and spent billions to get it out of the ground.....chavez took their company and all their assest and made it his .....


Baloney they didnt buy the land. They were there to extract, it was a SERVICE contract.

Editing to add that is didnt COST them billions, they PROFITTED billions...More dishonest spin there.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 11:17 AM
this is the same as the US govt......taking your house for the good of the nation to build a strip mall and condos.....

The oil belongs to the people and now it will actually benefit the people as well. Its not about malls, its about food, medical care, housing, agricultural development, education....

It says a lot when you have to be so dishonest and make such a ridculous comparison.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 11:19 AM
ah yes....how highly did Chavez value their investments.....

Fair market value, obviously thats not what the companies are upset about since the real complaint that the voiced wasnt about that but was rather about wanting a higher percentage. It seems like there is some straw grasping going on.

Gaffer
08-13-2007, 11:21 AM
Sitarro, feel free to live in such oversimplified made for tv silliness. We have no right to Venezuelans oil, the companies dont have a right to it either. It belongs to Venezuela.

Well then let them keep it. We should stop all exports to venezuela as well. Let them import food and other commodities from their allies, iran, cuba and north korea. They produce so much you know. Then there's china, what's a little food poisoning among friends.

Keep up the chevez cheer leading comrade.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 11:24 AM
Well then let them keep it. We should stop all exports to venezuela as well. Let them import food and other commodities from their allies, iran, cuba and north korea. They produce so much you know. Then there's china, what's a little food poisoning among friends.

Keep up the chevez cheer leading comrade.

By all means, do all you can (as is your right as an american citizen) to get the US govt to not accept any oil FROM Venezuela and do no EXPORTING to Venezuela either. NO buying from or selling to Venezuela.....sounds like a plan and if enough americans agree then the govt should surely implement it.

BTW, they will probably still be doing business with plenty of US allies as well.

Sitarro
08-13-2007, 11:29 AM
The oil belongs to the people and now it will actually benefit the people as well. Its not about malls, its about food, medical care, housing, agricultural development, education....

It says a lot when you have to be so dishonest and make such a ridculous comparison.

It would appear that you are as naive as your avatar implies.

Do you think that since Hugo is making Venezuela the Utopia for all people young and old, that it will turn around the illegal immigration that has plagued our country(if I was a Mexican, I would certainly be heading for the new Utopia)? I'm sure Saint Hugo will welcome them with open arms..... yea sure.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 11:37 AM
It would appear that you are as naive as your avatar implies.

Do you think that since Hugo is making Venezuela the Utopia for all people young and old, that it will turn around the illegal immigration that has plagued our country(if I was a Mexican, I would certainly be heading for the new Utopia)? I'm sure Saint Hugo will welcome them with open arms..... yea sure.

There you go again with the made for tv extremes. Its not about utopia its about desperately needed reforms in a developing nation who does have the tools and resources to improve its condition and make life better for the nation. Implementing policies to improve the economy and the lives of the people of that nation is what countries are SOPPOSED to do. Odd how such a thing recieves such hostility, its such a perfectly normal and right thing to do.

Utopias do not exist, but improvements and advancements do. Just look at history all over the world and you will find that no one has reached Utopia but we have major developments and improvements over previous times.

manu1959
08-13-2007, 11:47 AM
The oil belongs to the people and now it will actually benefit the people as well. Its not about malls, its about food, medical care, housing, agricultural development, education....

It says a lot when you have to be so dishonest and make such a ridculous comparison.

tell me why he is not using it for that ..... he is using it to buy military equipment....

you don't like the comparison because it is accurate.....

the gov't is taking the property of a private company.....

i knew you would respond that it is ok to take from a company but wrong to take from a person.....you seem to forget the people own companies....

i lived in russia in the 80's under the system you believe in .... the people lived in poverty .....

Gaffer
08-13-2007, 12:15 PM
My limited knowledge of venezuela comes from a guy I use to talk to where I was working. He was from there and was worried about chevez getting elected. The country was a real upward mobile place at the time. Lots of businesses investing there and a good tourist industry. He expected a lot of problems with chevez and he was soooo right. Once chevez took over everything began going to shit. What was an up and coming country has now reverted back to a third world shit hole.

chevez points the finger at America saying its all or fault to keep the people from realizing its his own ineptitude and greed that is the cause of their suffering.

chevez controls the media (a democrats dream) and no one is allowed to speak out against him. Foreigners will be kicked out if they do and venezuelans will be imprisoned. He is the government. He has declared himself president for life. He has all the makings of another saddam. And unless the people revolt and take him down we will have to go toe to toe with him over the next ten years or so.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 01:31 PM
tell me why he is not using it for that ..... he is using it to buy military equipment....

you don't like the comparison because it is accurate.....

the gov't is taking the property of a private company.....

i knew you would respond that it is ok to take from a company but wrong to take from a person.....you seem to forget the people own companies....

i lived in russia in the 80's under the system you believe in .... the people lived in poverty .....


I am sure that the nation also uses money for a military and equipment...so what? Nations are entitled to have an equipped military, we sure do and we sure spend a boatload of cash too!

The people involved were taking far too much of the profits and the people in Venezuela own that oil and and futhermore, they need it to develop their nation.

The companies were paid fair market value but no longer have service contracts or if they do, they have signed the new and renegotiated ones with the democratically elected govt.

Overly simplistic accusations of communism arent gonna get you far. Venezuela is not going for nor agreeing with a neoliberalism model of economy. If thats what you want in the US, have at it, but Venezuela has chosen a different path which is their right to do.

Ruby
08-13-2007, 01:37 PM
My limited knowledge of venezuela comes from a guy I use to talk to where I was working. He was from there and was worried about chevez getting elected. The country was a real upward mobile place at the time. Lots of businesses investing there and a good tourist industry. He expected a lot of problems with chevez and he was soooo right. Once chevez took over everything began going to shit. What was an up and coming country has now reverted back to a third world shit hole.

chevez points the finger at America saying its all or fault to keep the people from realizing its his own ineptitude and greed that is the cause of their suffering.

chevez controls the media (a democrats dream) and no one is allowed to speak out against him. Foreigners will be kicked out if they do and venezuelans will be imprisoned. He is the government. He has declared himself president for life. He has all the makings of another saddam. And unless the people revolt and take him down we will have to go toe to toe with him over the next ten years or so.


Your knowledge is on Venezuela is non-existant! Didnt even KNOW about the coup and now your source is ONE GUY YOU KNOW and is now filtered through your interpertation of what this ONE GUY says. YOU_MUST_BE_KIDDING!

You can hear plenty of anti-chavez rhetoric IN Venezuela and satellite feeds are perfectly legal. There are state owned AND privately owned channels. ONE CHANNEL who participated in the coup against Venezuela and its democratically elected govt has been denied a state license BUT it can still broadcast into Venezuela via other means (internet, satellite etc).

Many nations have exactly the same set up, they have state owned channels but those arent the ONLY channels available. There are privately owned channels as well and even in the US they have to be granted license from the govt. Our govt would never give or renew a channel or station that participated in a violent coup of our democratically elected leader either.

He did not declare himself president for life, he removed term limits so people can continue to VOTE FOR HIM IF THEY CHOOSE in elections.

Said1
08-13-2007, 04:30 PM
The people always have a right to get rid of him, and they dont have to wait for elections if that is their choice. He has strengthened that portion actually. If we arent going to limit our choices, why not indefinitely keep more options available to us? He didnt remove elections or the tools to get rid of a leader they dont like.

I hope that Chave,z as well as the whole nation continue to change their minds about things when they can see a better way. Things are always changing and we continually need to make adjustments in efforts to do things better.

Although I don't agree, there is a large misunderstanding as to what he is actually proposing. Unnless I'm not gettting it, I'm under the impression that there will be no re-election until either the people want one or there is a non-confidence motion put forward by the opposition or via coalition with his own party and opposition parties - depending on who is in the majority (that part is an assumption given that they have a parliamentary system). This is largely how Canada works, with no term limits per Prime Minister - elections every 4 yrs - not sure if we can demande a re-election though. I can't think of one single PM who made it past mid way second term before their party and country started to turn on them - corruption abounds, scandls are uncovered etc, etc.

In any event, parliament is voting on ending term limits for re-election, ammending their constituion this week, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Yurt
08-13-2007, 08:48 PM
Sorry Ruby, I never endorsed any findings from that sham organization.... you might as well get Al Sharpton to publish human rights violations, you'll get something just as biased. Amnesty International.....Bullshit International.





So you feel that if it's a Western capitalist corporation that works for profit, their contracts are nul in void. Just as his useless friends, the shitheads in the Middle East, he has reaped the rewards of people and equipment with ideas and capabilities much more superior to anything that asswipe could ever dream of. You pretend that we steal oil from those that just happen to be born a thousand feet above it.....that isn't true. We discovered it, drilled for it, pumped it to the surface, refined it into useable formulas, invented the equipment that provided a use for it and then made a bunch of dildoes rich by buying it from them....... how are we the bad guys? They are the ones that have stolen our equipment and technologies to do something with oil that would still be underground if it wasn't for us. .





.


That is exactly what I was trying to say.... but your's is well, ah, a wee more eloquent

Yurt
08-13-2007, 08:53 PM
I am sure that the nation also uses money for a military and equipment...so what? Nations are entitled to have an equipped military, we sure do and we sure spend a boatload of cash too!

The people involved were taking far too much of the profits and the people in Venezuela own that oil and and futhermore, they need it to develop their nation.

The companies were paid fair market value but no longer have service contracts or if they do, they have signed the new and renegotiated ones with the democratically elected govt.

Overly simplistic accusations of communism arent gonna get you far. Venezuela is not going for nor agreeing with a neoliberalism model of economy. If thats what you want in the US, have at it, but Venezuela has chosen a different path which is their right to do.

They were NOT paid fair market value. Get real. I really cannot believe you consider chavez's regime to be democratic. You know he has forced the "legislature" to effectively have him be in power for as long as he deems necessary. Don't let words fool you, look behind them and see the actual effect. Look and SEE how he destroys all dissent. Go back and read my opening post on this thread and see how democratic your dictator is. Tell me, who can impeach him? Who has the power in that country to stop him from stealing the companies technology and equipment?

Yurt
08-13-2007, 08:54 PM
In Venezuela, Speak No Ill of Hugo

Many foreigners can travel to Venezuela without a visa. But now there's a new requirement once they get there. President Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country. The comments came after the President of Mexico's ruling conservative party criticized Chavez for seeking to do away with term limits at a recent pro-democracy conference in Caracas. "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

socialism rules man, liberals are right to support chavez (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070725/wl_time/invenezuelaspeaknoillofhugo)


And we can only imagine what happens to citizens who critize him. Pro-democracy rally :poke:

Sitarro
08-13-2007, 09:38 PM
Hugo Chavez is an enemy of the United States, if that little faggot troll was standing in front of me I would punch him in the mouth for what he has said about my President. He is a punk and a faggot punk at that and will no doubt die a very bloody death, the sooner the better.

red states rule
08-14-2007, 03:48 AM
I remember seeing the video of the military firing tear gas into the TV station that broadcast critical things about Hugo

This must be Hugo's version of the Fairness Doctrine. I suspect there are some libs who would like to see that happen here in the US and the tear gas being shot into Fox News headquarters

Ruby
08-14-2007, 08:31 AM
Although I don't agree, there is a large misunderstanding as to what he is actually proposing. Unnless I'm not gettting it, I'm under the impression that there will be no re-election until either the people want one or there is a non-confidence motion put forward by the opposition or via coalition with his own party and opposition parties - depending on who is in the majority (that part is an assumption given that they have a parliamentary system). This is largely how Canada works, with no term limits per Prime Minister - elections every 4 yrs - not sure if we can demande a re-election though. I can't think of one single PM who made it past mid way second term before their party and country started to turn on them - corruption abounds, scandls are uncovered etc, etc.

In any event, parliament is voting on ending term limits for re-election, ammending their constituion this week, I guess we'll have to wait and see.


There will be regular elections, there will no longer be term limits. There are also measures to get rid of a leader BEFORE the regularly scheduled elections because people should always have the right to get rid of a leader they feel is too corrupt or not leading well instead of remaining stuck with him for even one more year.

BTW, I think some confusion is occuring because measures that strengthen removal of an unpopular leader are being confused with ending term limits.

Ruby
08-14-2007, 08:38 AM
They were NOT paid fair market value. Get real. I really cannot believe you consider chavez's regime to be democratic. You know he has forced the "legislature" to effectively have him be in power for as long as he deems necessary. Don't let words fool you, look behind them and see the actual effect. Look and SEE how he destroys all dissent. Go back and read my opening post on this thread and see how democratic your dictator is. Tell me, who can impeach him? Who has the power in that country to stop him from stealing the companies technology and equipment?

Yes they were, thats why they arent complaining about that part.

It is a democratic regime and was democratically elected. You seem to have some trouble grasping the concept of democratic for some reason.

He hasnt forced legislature to do anything, they are getting rid of term limits and thats not declaring himself president for life.

He hasnt stolen anything from the companies, they were paid for the investments and offered new service contracts that they have an option of saying yes or no too. Some said yes and some said no.

The people in that country have the power which is exactly why the coup only lasted 48 hours, it was the people of the nation who demanded and got their democratically elected leader and govt back.

I think you are the one being "fooled" since you dont even understand the difference between ending term limits and declaring oneself leader for life. You dont seem to grasp that Venezuelas oil belongs to Venezuelans and not exxon, BP, stat oil or any other private corp.

red states rule
08-14-2007, 08:55 AM
Hugo and Castro are role models to the left on how government should be run

Yurt
08-15-2007, 09:36 PM
Ruby;104890]Yes they were, thats why they arent complaining about that part.

You surely know of the oil companies who left "voluntarily." Your ludicrous claim that those who chose not to agree to chavez's thievery did not complain are laughable, at best. Who are they too complain too?

Robber with gun: Give me your wallet or you die

Victim: Ok.

No complaint there. Must be Ok according to you. :poke:


It is a democratic regime and was democratically elected. You seem to have some trouble grasping the concept of democratic for some reason.

Yeah, and so was Saddam.


He hasnt forced legislature to do anything, they are getting rid of term limits and thats not declaring himself president for life.

hahaha, here is the forest, I parted the trees for you....



He hasnt stolen anything from the companies, they were paid for the investments and offered new service contracts that they have an option of saying yes or no too. Some said yes and some said no.

Wrong. Plain wrong. Hugo cancelled the contracts and said if you want NEW contracts..... :poke:



The people in that country have the power which is exactly why the coup only lasted 48 hours, it was the people of the nation who demanded and got their democratically elected leader and govt back.

I think you are the one being "fooled" since you dont even understand the difference between ending term limits and declaring oneself leader for life. You dont seem to grasp that Venezuelas oil belongs to Venezuelans and not exxon, BP, stat oil or any other private corp


Think about it. Ending term limits? What are the realistic effects of this downward slope? You know, something really bothers me with your logic, I have a strong hunch that if a president here got elected and "convinced" the senate to get rid of term limits, I highly doubt you would use the same logic. Not that I support term limits. However, this is about this guy slowly, but surely eroding democratic institutions. You would have to be blind to say he runs his government like the US. Give me an example of the power the "congress" has. Give me an example of the power the "courts" have.

It is you who are being fooled. He is hypocritical dictator who can bash on our president on our soil and then go back to his country and say that any foreigner who does the same about him........ well....... you know....... probably end up with all the other visible protesters we see.

Where are the voices of those who protest Hugo? SURELY you don't believe everyone supports hugo? Where are their voices?

emmett
08-16-2007, 12:15 AM
There you go again with the made for tv extremes. Its not about utopia its about desperately needed reforms in a developing nation who does have the tools and resources to improve its condition and make life better for the nation. Implementing policies to improve the economy and the lives of the people of that nation is what countries are SOPPOSED to do. Odd how such a thing recieves such hostility, its such a perfectly normal and right thing to do.

Utopias do not exist, but improvements and advancements do. Just look at history all over the world and you will find that no one has reached Utopia but we have major developments and improvements over previous times.

Well shit! Since you put it that way where do I need to send the deed to my property so we canhave all the advantages soon to be experienced by Venezuelans. You do realize a dick tater is a dick tater, don't you?

avatar4321
08-16-2007, 12:20 AM
There will be regular elections, there will no longer be term limits. There are also measures to get rid of a leader BEFORE the regularly scheduled elections because people should always have the right to get rid of a leader they feel is too corrupt or not leading well instead of remaining stuck with him for even one more year.

BTW, I think some confusion is occuring because measures that strengthen removal of an unpopular leader are being confused with ending term limits.

elections dont mean much when you murder everyone who opposes you.

Sitarro
08-16-2007, 12:24 AM
Besides being a faggot little turd, Hugo is an idiot as well. By coming out and saying that "if anything happens to me it will be George Bush's fault" ........ any enemy of the United States could kill this jerk just to get the U.S. President blamed....... he marked a bullseye on his pointed little head..... what a maroon. I bet Putin is working on a plan as we speak.:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

manu1959
08-16-2007, 12:33 AM
Besides being a faggot little turd, Hugo is an idiot as well. By coming out and saying that "if anything happens to me it will be George Bush's fault" ........ any enemy of the United States could kill this jerk just to get the U.S. President blamed....... he marked a bullseye on his pointed little head..... what a maroon. I bet Putin is working on a plan as we speak.:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

you are old like me castro said the same thing.....hugo is trying to steal castros propeller beanie.....

KarlMarx
08-16-2007, 06:03 AM
Chavez spoke in an international forum.

The problem and organizations that Chavez will go after are ones like USAID and NED, those are organizations set up by the US and are instrumental in US staged coups in the region and specifically the one that took place in Venezuela a few years ago.

Deport him to Cuba? He is Venezuelan and not an illegal entry into the US so your comments come off as really badly informed and show an inability to at least come up with some sort of intelligent dig. Venezuela also DOES take advantage of the talent coming out of Cuba in the medical field, he has a deal for low cost oil in trade for cuban doctors and medical personal who go to Venezuela to provide medical care.

I dont fault Bush or any american politician for saying what they really think about any other world leader or where they say it, its the invasions, bombings and coups the US engages in that I object to. Let me know when Chavez starts threatening to "shock and awe" us for having WMD.

Chavez also took to the streets of NYC after his notorious UN speech and did pretty much the same thing. This provoked the local Congressman, Charles Rangel, to condemn Hugo Chavez....

I find it quite amusing that Hugo Chavez thinks that he is entitled to the very freedoms he now denies his fellow countrymen....

but, hey, libs love him, just like that other one.... Castro... in fact, libs seem to love dictators in general, don't they?

red states rule
08-16-2007, 08:36 AM
Chavez also took to the streets of NYC after his notorious UN speech and did pretty much the same thing. This provoked the local Congressman, Charles Rangel, to condemn Hugo Chavez....

I find it quite amusing that Hugo Chavez thinks that he is entitled to the very freedoms he now denies his fellow countrymen....

but, hey, libs love him, just like that other one.... Castro... in fact, libs seem to love dictators in general, don't they?

Rangel was pissed alright. Where the hell does Hugo come off using all the Dems talking points?

and this today from the lovable Hugo


Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Proposes Changes to Constitution Allowing His Perpetual Re-Election
Wednesday, August 15, 2007

CARACAS, Venezuela — President Hugo Chavez called for changes to Venezuela's constitution Wednesday night, delivering a key address pitching reforms that are expected to allow him to be re-elected indefinitely.

Chavez, speaking to the National Assembly, said the changes affect "less than 10 percent" of the constitution but would bring Venezuela "new horizons for the new era." Chavez, who is seeking to transform Venezuelan society along socialist lines, denied he wants lifelong power as his opponents allege.

"They accuse me of making plans to be in power forever or to concentrate power. We know it isn't like that. It's power of the people," Chavez said. "So many lies in the world. I doubt there is any country on this planet with a democracy more alive than the one we enjoy in Venezuela today."

Critics accuse Chavez of seeking to remain as president for decades to come, like his close friend Fidel Castro in Cuba. They argue his main goal is to expand his power and ensure he will be able to run again in 2012.

Chavez's political allies firmly control the National Assembly, which is expected to approve the reform plan within months. The plan then would have to be approved by citizens in a national referendum.

Chavez has previously stressed the need to do away with presidential term limits that currently prevent him from seeking re-election in 2012. But he began his speech discussing what he called a transition to "a new society" and other reforms, including territorial changes.

"There are 33 articles that starting tomorrow will begin to be read, analyzed, criticized," Chavez said, adding that with the speech "a great debate" begins. He made clear who he expects to oppose him, saying: "We can defeat the forces of (U.S.) imperialism and the servile oligarchy."

Before lawmakers, Chavez held up a small copy of the country's current constitution, dating to his first term in 1999, and called it one of the world's "most advanced" but said he and members of a presidential commission have been "working intensely" on ways to improve it.

Chavez waved to a crowd of cheering supporters as he walked into the legislature with fireworks exploding overhead. His opponents, meanwhile, attacked the reform plan.

"Chavez is seeking to reduce the territory held by the opposition and give his intention to remain in power a legal foundation," said Gerardo Blyde, an opposition leader and former lawmaker.

He said many other reforms are likely to be "red capes" like those used by a bullfighter "to distract Venezuelans from his real objective."

Venezuela's Roman Catholic Bishops' Conference has also complained that Chavez's reform proposals were drafted without public involvement.

Chavez, a former paratrooper commander who was first elected in 1998, denies copying Cuba and insists that personal freedoms will be respected. He and his supporters say democracy has flourished under his administration, noting he has repeatedly won elections by wide margins.

In Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Wednesday that the United States would wait for details of Chavez's proposal before commenting on it. He added that Chavez in the past "has taken a number of different steps ... that have really eroded some of the underpinnings of democracy in Venezuela."

Since his re-election to a new six-year term in December, Chavez has alarmed opponents who claim that he is headed toward Cuba-style communism.

Chavez, a former paratrooper commander who was first elected in 1998, denies copying Cuba and insists that personal freedoms will be respected. He and his supporters say democracy has flourished under his administration, noting he has repeatedly won elections by wide margins.

Chavez pushed through a new constitution in 1999, shortly after he was first elected. He said the charter must be redrafted so that Venezuela's capitalist system "finishes dying" to make way for socialism.

Ahead of Chavez's speech, actors sang in the National Assembly as they performed a scene from the life of South American independence hero Simon Bolivar, the spiritual father of the socialist movement that Chavez calls the Bolivarian Revolution.

Crowds of red-clad supporters cheered outside the National Assembly, holding flags and signs reading: "Yes to the reform, on the path to 21st Century Socialism." Giant video screens were set up, and folk music blared from sound trucks near a two-story-tall inflatable figure of Chavez.

Hours earlier, U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said in Washington that the United States would wait for details of Chavez's proposal before commenting on it. He added that Chavez in the past "has taken a number of different steps ... that have really eroded some of the underpinnings of democracy in Venezuela."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293417,00.html

theHawk
08-16-2007, 09:30 AM
and this today from the lovable Hugo


Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Proposes Changes to Constitution Allowing His Perpetual Re-Election
Wednesday, August 15, 2007

CARACAS, Venezuela — President Hugo Chavez called for changes to Venezuela's constitution Wednesday night, delivering a key address pitching reforms that are expected to allow him to be re-elected indefinitely.

Chavez, speaking to the National Assembly, said the changes affect "less than 10 percent" of the constitution but would bring Venezuela "new horizons for the new era." Chavez, who is seeking to transform Venezuelan society along socialist lines, denied he wants lifelong power as his opponents allege.

"They accuse me of making plans to be in power forever or to concentrate power. We know it isn't like that. It's power of the people," Chavez said. "So many lies in the world. I doubt there is any country on this planet with a democracy more alive than the one we enjoy in Venezuela today."

Critics accuse Chavez of seeking to remain as president for decades to come, like his close friend Fidel Castro in Cuba. They argue his main goal is to expand his power and ensure he will be able to run again in 2012.

Chavez's political allies firmly control the National Assembly, which is expected to approve the reform plan within months. The plan then would have to be approved by citizens in a national referendum.

Chavez has previously stressed the need to do away with presidential term limits that currently prevent him from seeking re-election in 2012. But he began his speech discussing what he called a transition to "a new society" and other reforms, including territorial changes.

"There are 33 articles that starting tomorrow will begin to be read, analyzed, criticized," Chavez said, adding that with the speech "a great debate" begins. He made clear who he expects to oppose him, saying: "We can defeat the forces of (U.S.) imperialism and the servile oligarchy."

Before lawmakers, Chavez held up a small copy of the country's current constitution, dating to his first term in 1999, and called it one of the world's "most advanced" but said he and members of a presidential commission have been "working intensely" on ways to improve it.

Chavez waved to a crowd of cheering supporters as he walked into the legislature with fireworks exploding overhead. His opponents, meanwhile, attacked the reform plan.

"Chavez is seeking to reduce the territory held by the opposition and give his intention to remain in power a legal foundation," said Gerardo Blyde, an opposition leader and former lawmaker.

He said many other reforms are likely to be "red capes" like those used by a bullfighter "to distract Venezuelans from his real objective."

Venezuela's Roman Catholic Bishops' Conference has also complained that Chavez's reform proposals were drafted without public involvement.

Chavez, a former paratrooper commander who was first elected in 1998, denies copying Cuba and insists that personal freedoms will be respected. He and his supporters say democracy has flourished under his administration, noting he has repeatedly won elections by wide margins.

In Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Wednesday that the United States would wait for details of Chavez's proposal before commenting on it. He added that Chavez in the past "has taken a number of different steps ... that have really eroded some of the underpinnings of democracy in Venezuela."

Since his re-election to a new six-year term in December, Chavez has alarmed opponents who claim that he is headed toward Cuba-style communism.

Chavez, a former paratrooper commander who was first elected in 1998, denies copying Cuba and insists that personal freedoms will be respected. He and his supporters say democracy has flourished under his administration, noting he has repeatedly won elections by wide margins.

Chavez pushed through a new constitution in 1999, shortly after he was first elected. He said the charter must be redrafted so that Venezuela's capitalist system "finishes dying" to make way for socialism.

Ahead of Chavez's speech, actors sang in the National Assembly as they performed a scene from the life of South American independence hero Simon Bolivar, the spiritual father of the socialist movement that Chavez calls the Bolivarian Revolution.

Crowds of red-clad supporters cheered outside the National Assembly, holding flags and signs reading: "Yes to the reform, on the path to 21st Century Socialism." Giant video screens were set up, and folk music blared from sound trucks near a two-story-tall inflatable figure of Chavez.

Hours earlier, U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said in Washington that the United States would wait for details of Chavez's proposal before commenting on it. He added that Chavez in the past "has taken a number of different steps ... that have really eroded some of the underpinnings of democracy in Venezuela."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293417,00.html


Sounds to me like he is paving the way to be the Latin Hitler.

red states rule
08-16-2007, 09:33 AM
It does not sound like it to me - he is the Latin Hitler

I wonder how the left will spin and defend this?

Said1
08-16-2007, 06:45 PM
Canada doesn't have term limits.

What Chavez apparently wants is a chance at re-election, as many times as he can, instead of two terms.

Ruby
08-17-2007, 01:33 AM
You surely know of the oil companies who left "voluntarily." Your ludicrous claim that those who chose not to agree to chavez's thievery did not complain are laughable, at best. Who are they too complain too?

Well they have a public forum and they have complained about not getting a bigger percentage but they arent complaining about the amounts they were paid for equipement and development done. They profitted greatly from it all.



Yeah, and so was Saddam.

Elections have been held numerous times and affirmed to be legitimate elections by outside groups who were there to observe.



Wrong. Plain wrong. Hugo cancelled the contracts and said if you want NEW contracts..... :poke:

Thats right and he can do that since they were deemed unfair to the people of the nation who own those resources. We have contracts I wish our govt would cancel. We have had companies ripping off the tax payers "rebuilding" Iraq and serving our miltary. We absolutely have a right to cancel any contract that is unfair to the american people or dont serve the nations best interests.



Think about it. Ending term limits? What are the realistic effects of this downward slope? You know, something really bothers me with your logic, I have a strong hunch that if a president here got elected and "convinced" the senate to get rid of term limits, I highly doubt you would use the same logic. Not that I support term limits. However, this is about this guy slowly, but surely eroding democratic institutions. You would have to be blind to say he runs his government like the US. Give me an example of the power the "congress" has. Give me an example of the power the "courts" have.

It is you who are being fooled. He is hypocritical dictator who can bash on our president on our soil and then go back to his country and say that any foreigner who does the same about him........ well....... you know....... probably end up with all the other visible protesters we see.

Where are the voices of those who protest Hugo? SURELY you don't believe everyone supports hugo? Where are their voices?


I am all for ending term limits in the US. I dont agree with ANYTHING Bush has done and would never ever vote for him, but he should be able to run again and if american people want to re-elect him, they should have the option to do so.

There are definitely a group of elites in Venezuela who profitted a great deal from the situation as it was before Chavez, I am quite sure they would love to go back to that. The nation as a group have decided that is not a good way to do things and have changed it.

Ruby
08-17-2007, 01:36 AM
elections dont mean much when you murder everyone who opposes you.

What a lie! How bout backing up that assertion.

Its amazing how much people rely on lying to make a point.

How funny that its overlooked that the 2002 coup failed because people of the nation refused to accept it. Thats a very clear backing Chavez by the nation.

Ruby
08-17-2007, 01:39 AM
Sounds to me like he is paving the way to be the Latin Hitler.

Even with the FOX spin they fail to show any of this is bad. Doing away with term limits is a good thing and many nations DO NOT have term limits and are most certainly democratically run countries with populations that enjoy high standards of freedoms.

Ruby
08-17-2007, 01:40 AM
It does not sound like it to me - he is the Latin Hitler

I wonder how the left will spin and defend this?

Hitler??? How many nations has he invaded? How many gas ovens does he have and how many people has he shoved into them?

You are a shining example of how it is indeed possible to come through the education system terribly under-educated.

red states rule
08-17-2007, 05:07 AM
Hitler??? How many nations has he invaded? How many gas ovens does he have and how many people has he shoved into them?

You are a shining example of how it is indeed possible to come through the education system terribly under-educated.

He is doing ths same thing Hitler did. He is getting rid of any opposition, consoldating his power, and shutting down any voices that disagree with him

Amazxing how libs hate Pres Bush and conservatives more then dictators who enslave and murder people

Ruby
08-17-2007, 06:33 AM
He is doing ths same thing Hitler did. He is getting rid of any opposition, consoldating his power, and shutting down any voices that disagree with him

Amazxing how libs hate Pres Bush and conservatives more then dictators who enslave and murder people

No he isnt. Satellites and internet are not banned there by any means. There are many private owned media (written and televised) and they do critisize.

Consolidate power? By getting rid of term limits? I guess all those other democratic nations who also dont have term limits are all just "Hitlers". How demeaning to those who suffered under Hitler to make such a ridiculous comparison and minimize what Hitler did.

Making accusations with no actual evidence to back them up equals BULLSHIT.

red states rule
08-17-2007, 06:36 AM
No he isnt. Satellites and internet are not banned there by any means. There are many private owned media (written and televised) and they do critisize.

Consolidate power? By getting rid of term limits? I guess all those other democratic nations who also dont have term limits are all just "Hitlers". How demeaning to those who suffered under Hitler to make such a ridiculous comparison and minimize what Hitler did.

Making accusations with no actual evidence to back them up equals BULLSHIT.

Did you miss the tanks firing into the lone TV station that opposed him?

red states rule
08-17-2007, 06:46 AM
I am sure libs dream of Pres Hillary doing the same thing to Fox news


Venezuelans Protest As TV Station Shuts

By FABIOLA SANCHEZ
The Associated Press
Tuesday, May 29, 2007; 1:53 AM

CARACAS, Venezuela -- Venezuelan police fired tear gas and plastic bullets Monday into a crowd of thousands protesting a decision by President Hugo Chavez that forced a television station critical of his leftist government off the air.

Police fired toward the crowd of up to 5,000 protesters from a raised highway, and protesters fled amid clouds of tear gas. They later regrouped in Caracas' Plaza Brion chanting "freedom!" Some tossed rocks and bottles at police, prompting authorities to scatter demonstrators by firing more gas

It was the largest of several protests that broke out across Caracas hours after Radio Caracas Television ceased broadcasting at midnight Sunday and was replaced with a new state-funded channel. Chavez had refused to renew RCTV's broadcast license, accusing it of "subversive" activities and of backing a 2002 coup against him.

Interior Minister Pedro Carreno told state-run television that four students were wounded by gunfire during a pro-RCTV protest staged near a university in the city of Valencia, located 150 kilometers (93 miles) west of Caracas. It was not immediately clear who the assailants were or if they were arrested.

At least three protesters and one police officer were injured in the Caracas skirmishes. Some protesters were seen in television footage hurling spent tear gas canisters back at police.

Office workers poured out of buildings to join student protesters, while organizers called for the demonstration to remain peaceful. RCTV talk show host Miguel Angel Rodriguez led the crowd in chants of, "They will not silence us!"

Separately, Information Minister Willian Lara accused the private Globovision TV channel of encouraging an attempt on Chavez's life by broadcasting the chorus of a salsa tune _ "Have faith, this doesn't end here" _ along with footage of the 1981 assassination attempt against Pope John Paul II in St. Peter's Square.

"They incite the assassination of Venezuela's president," he said.

Globovision director Alberto Federico Ravell denied any wrongdoing, calling the allegations "ridiculous." He also accused U.S. network CNN of coverage biased against Chavez.

The new public channel, TVES, launched its transmissions early Monday with artists singing pro-Chavez music, then carried an exercise program and a talk show, interspersed with government ads proclaiming, "Now Venezuela belongs to everyone."

Thousands of government supporters reveled in the streets as they watched the midnight changeover on large TV screens, seeing RCTV's signal go black and then be replaced by a TVES logo. Others launched fireworks and danced in the streets.

Inside the studios of RCTV _ the sole opposition-aligned TV station with nationwide reach _ disheartened actors and comedians wept and embraced in the final minutes on the air.

Chavez says he is democratizing the airwaves by turning the network's signal over to public use.

The socialist president accused the network of helping to incite a failed coup in 2002, violating broadcast laws and "poisoning" Venezuelans with programming that promoted capitalism. RCTV's managers deny wrongdoing.

Founded in 1953, RCTV was the nation's oldest private channel and regularly topped viewer ratings with its talk shows, sports, soap operas and comedy programs.

Some protesters on Monday blocked roads with rocks and burning trash, saying they fear for the future of free speech. Police used tear gas to break up at least two protests, and were seen handcuffing and detaining one man.

The group Reporters Without Borders called for international condemnation of the RCTV decision as "a major setback to democracy and pluralism."

Robert Menard, the Paris-based group's secretary-general, called the measure Chavez's "first serious international political error."

Germany, which holds the European Union presidency, officially declared its concern that Venezuela let RCTV's license expire "without holding an open competition for the successor license."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/28/AR2007052800161.html

red states rule
08-17-2007, 06:49 AM
and Hugo is doing his part to keep these numbers up


Venezuelans See Murders Soar, Say Crime Nation's Worst Problemtopic posted Fri, April 27, 2007

By Theresa Bradley

April 27 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela's average annual murder tally nearly tripled during President Hugo Chavez's first seven years in office, prompting one in two Venezuelans polled to name crime as the country's most serious problem.

Some 85,672 people, an average 12,239 per year, were killed in violent crimes between 1999 and 2005, the last year for which data from the nation's Health Ministry were available, according to a study released yesterday by the opposition political party A New Time and Amnesty International. In 1998, the year before Chavez took office, 4,500 people were killed, the study said.

``All this violence, crime and bloodshed demonstrates a great failure on part of this government,'' A New Time vice- president William Ojeda said today in a telephone interview. ``We can't stand to see such indifference and indolence.''

Crime has surged across the country in recent years, provoking a siege mentality among many Venezuelans who fear to venture out at night, and exposing one of Chavez's main weaknesses.

Some 89.5 percent of people polled last month said they were ``unsatisfied'' with their personal safety, while 48.3 percent cited crime as the nation's worst problem -- worse than unemployment, health care or food shortages. The poll, by the Caracas research firm Datanalisis, surveyed 1,300 people in the nation's main cities between March 12 and March 23, and has a margin of error of 2.72 percent.

`Trashed by Violence'

Venezuela is home to more per capita yearly gun deaths, 34 for every 100,000 inhabitants, than any nation in the world, according to United Nations data.

About 85 percent of the murders between 1999 and 2005 were committed by gun, the leading cause of death among men and women aged 15 to 24, the New Time Party's study showed. Unofficial estimates put at least 5 million guns in private hands, of which only 1.5 million are registered as law requires, Ojeda said.

``Venezuela is being trashed by violence,'' Ojeda said, noting that more people die in gun violence every day in Venezuela than did in the April 16 shooting at Virginia Tech University. ``It's a sign of social destruction and social problems.''

The New Time party, founded in 1999 by Zulia-state governor Manuel Rosales, who lost last December's presidential election to Chavez with 37 percent of the vote, is asking Chavez's government to declare a state of emergency until it stems the crime surge.

The party is also asking the government to form a ``Safety Mission,'' in addition to the 21 other social programs, officially dubbed ``missions,'' already in place.

City officials in violence-wracked Caracas took a different approach this month, launching camera-equipped surveillance blimps to patrol the city from above.

http://tribes.tribe.net/globalpolitics/thread/77974357-cd16-4e89-967d-6da9a4bdf0f8#837abcc4-93a5-44d3-a0c9-d39425c1ae46

Ruby
08-17-2007, 06:51 AM
Did you miss the tanks firing into the lone TV station that opposed him?

FIRED ON??? Please show this.

Tanks were sent out because last time they had demonstrations like this it was actually a COUP in progress and people died. This time there was going to remain a clear line that would not allow it. They also had a heavy police presence with riot gear on.

Its like you expect the coup of 2002 not to have any affect and for Venezuela not do all it can to make sure that dosent happen again.

They didnt fire on the station. Why resort to lying?

red states rule
08-17-2007, 06:53 AM
FIRED ON??? Please show this.

Tanks were sent out because last time they had demonstrations like this it was actually a COUP in progress and people died. This time there was going to remain a clear line that would not allow it. They also had a heavy police presence with riot gear on.

Its like you expect the coup of 2002 not to have any affect and for Venezuela not do all it can to make sure that dosent happen again.

They didnt fire on the station. Why resort to lying?

My you fit the profile a liberal so well. Uninformed and easily duped

red states rule
08-17-2007, 06:55 AM
FIRED ON??? Please show this.

Tanks were sent out because last time they had demonstrations like this it was actually a COUP in progress and people died. This time there was going to remain a clear line that would not allow it. They also had a heavy police presence with riot gear on.

Its like you expect the coup of 2002 not to have any affect and for Venezuela not do all it can to make sure that dosent happen again.

They didnt fire on the station. Why resort to lying?

So I guess now the Washington Post is part of this vast right wing conspiracy against poor little misunderstood Hugo?

Ruby
08-17-2007, 06:56 AM
My you fit the profile a liberal so well. Uninformed and easily duped

Really, then where is the evidence that a TANK FIRED INTO THE LONE STATION as you claimed...

Of course you LIED and thats why you didnt include anything to substantiate your claim that a tank fired into a lone station.

red states rule
08-17-2007, 07:01 AM
Really, then where is the evidence that a TANK FIRED INTO THE LONE STATION as you claimed...

Of course you LIED and thats why you didnt include anything to substantiate your claim that a tank fired into a lone station.

Did you read the article? They fired tear gas into the crowd after shutting down the TV station that spoke out against Hugo

You said Hugo was not supressing voices that spoke out against him

red states rule
08-17-2007, 07:08 AM
Reuters reports that Venezuelan "President" Hugo Chavez has proposed abolishing presidential term limits and extending the presidential term from six to seven years:

Under the current constitution, Chavez is in his second and final term and could not be elected again after it ends in 2012. The reform proposal would allow him to stay for as long as he keeps winning elections. "If anyone is going to say this is a project to enthrone oneself, no," Chavez said, in a speech before the legislature that stretched pass midnight. "This is only a possibility, a possibility that depends on many variables."
So even Chavez himself admits that it's "possible" he'll be "enthroned" as a monarch. To bribe the public into accepting his idea, he's also proclaimed he'll reduce the work day from eight to six hours. Yikes.

http://publiuspundit.com/americas/venezuela/


why do libs always side with dictators and the enemies of Amercia?

Ruby
08-17-2007, 07:16 AM
Did you read the article? They fired tear gas into the crowd after shutting down the TV station that spoke out against Hugo

You said Hugo was not supressing voices that spoke out against him

You claimed that a tank FIRED INTO A LONE STATION....where is the proof of this? You keep trying to change the subject in some lame effort to hide your lie.

You lied, at least just admit it.

BTW, managing two crowds of protesters is NOT silencing anyone. You are aware there were also support demonstrations going on as well. Would you be happier if they just let the groups go at it and get violent?

red states rule
08-17-2007, 07:18 AM
You claimed that a tank FIRED INTO A LONE STATION....where is the proof of this? You keep trying to change the subject in some lame effort to hide your lie.

You lied, at least just admit it.

Ok, the tanks did not fire into the station - but you claimed Hugi was not silencing voices that oppose him

I gues libs hate Bush and Amercia more then they do those who kill, suppress, and violate human rights

Ruby
08-17-2007, 07:19 AM
Reuters reports that Venezuelan "President" Hugo Chavez has proposed abolishing presidential term limits and extending the presidential term from six to seven years:

Under the current constitution, Chavez is in his second and final term and could not be elected again after it ends in 2012. The reform proposal would allow him to stay for as long as he keeps winning elections. "If anyone is going to say this is a project to enthrone oneself, no," Chavez said, in a speech before the legislature that stretched pass midnight. "This is only a possibility, a possibility that depends on many variables."
So even Chavez himself admits that it's "possible" he'll be "enthroned" as a monarch. To bribe the public into accepting his idea, he's also proclaimed he'll reduce the work day from eight to six hours. Yikes.

http://publiuspundit.com/americas/venezuela/
why do libs always side with dictators and the enemies of Amercia?


Yep the people will be FREE TO RE-ELECT him if they want to. That gives people more options, not less and its more democratic than term limits are.

red states rule
08-17-2007, 07:20 AM
Yep the people will be FREE TO RE-ELECT him if they want to. That gives people more options, not less and its more democratic than term limits are.

Free to re-elect him?

Yea libs said the same thing when Saddam was re-elected with 99.9% of the vote

OMG are you libs so full of it

Yet, when a Dem loses here in America the election was stolen

Ruby
08-17-2007, 07:21 AM
Ok, the tanks did not fire into the station - but you claimed Hugi was not silencing voices that oppose him

I gues libs hate Bush and Amercia more then they do those who kill, suppress, and violate human rights

Yet you claimed that tanks FIRED into a lone station. So you lied.

The voices were silenced, the demonstration and protests were allowed. They didnt force people to go home or arrest anyone who dared protest. They did however take measures to deal with potential violence that may occur.

Ruby
08-17-2007, 07:22 AM
Free to re-elect him?

Yea libs said the same thing when Saddam was re-elected with 99.9% of the vote

OMG are you libs so full of it


Yet the elections have been affirmed as fair. Outside observers have already done this numerous times and the elections are fair and are the voice of the people...even though you dont like their decision.

red states rule
08-17-2007, 07:22 AM
Yet you claimed that tanks FIRED into a lone station. So you lied.

The voices were silenced, the demonstration and protests were allowed. They didnt force people to go home or arrest anyone who dared protest. They did however take measures to deal with potential violence that may occur.

and you turn a blind eye to the truth - your hate for Pres Bush and Amercia will not allow you to see the what is really going on

red states rule
08-17-2007, 07:23 AM
Yet the elections have been affirmed as fair. Outside observers have already done this numerous times and the elections are fair and are the voice of the people...even though you dont like their decision.

Saddam's election was fair? His guards were inspecting every ballot before they were cast

God you are a liberal talking point

Ruby
08-17-2007, 07:25 AM
and you turn a blind eye to the truth - your hate for Pres Bush and Amercia will not allow you to see the what is really going on

Oh you are pretty funny to talk about truth after you just got busted outright LYING!!

Its not my fault that you enjoy the corporate propaganda that tries to demonize Chavez because they wont be able to profiteer in Venezuela the way they were before.

I dont think I will be falling for your "truth", you already demonstrated the kind of "truth" you tell.

LOL, the ol "you hate bush and america" schtick. Not very imaginative are ya?

Ruby
08-17-2007, 07:28 AM
Saddam's election was fair? His guards were inspecting every ballot before they were cast

God you are a liberal talking point

Try to keep up, we arent talking about Iraq elections of Saddam nor did outside observers go affirm that those were valid elections.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT VENEZUELAS elections and they were affirmed numerous times now by outside observers that the elections were fair and the results were valid.

red states rule
08-17-2007, 07:40 AM
Oh you are pretty funny to talk about truth after you just got busted outright LYING!!

Its not my fault that you enjoy the corporate propaganda that tries to demonize Chavez because they wont be able to profiteer in Venezuela the way they were before.

I dont think I will be falling for your "truth", you already demonstrated the kind of "truth" you tell.

LOL, the ol "you hate bush and america" schtick. Not very imaginative are ya?

and you are a liberal bimbo who swallows the left wing talking points


Try to keep up, we arent talking about Iraq elections of Saddam nor did outside observers go affirm that those were valid elections.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT VENEZUELAS elections and they were affirmed numerous times now by outside observers that the elections were fair and the results were valid.

Hugo's election will be as fair as the elections Saddam had

and the liberal media "reported" how big his win was

jimnyc
08-17-2007, 07:54 AM
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT VENEZUELAS elections and they were affirmed numerous times now by outside observers that the elections were fair and the results were valid.

Ruby, can you link me to some reading about these outside observers that affirmed the voting? Not disagreeing, just would like to read a bit about the process they took myself.

red states rule
08-17-2007, 07:56 AM
Here is one source - but the type Ruby wants to see

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB109452281788010900.html?mod=todays_us_page_one

But Peanut Carter says it was a fair election. And we all know how accurate Pres Peanut is in all his statements


http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2004/8/21/9342/93731

emmett
08-17-2007, 09:42 PM
It does not sound like it to me - he is the Latin Hitler

I wonder how the left will spin and defend this?

Ah!.......He's concerned about the people?

gabosaurus
08-17-2007, 10:15 PM
Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

We do much the same thing here. We put dissidents under surveillance, allow them to "disappear" without notice and otherwise harass them.

Chavez is no different than any other dictator. We support a lot of them.

Sitarro
08-17-2007, 10:29 PM
We do much the same thing here. We put dissidents under surveillance, allow them to "disappear" without notice and otherwise harass them.

Chavez is no different than any other dictator. We support a lot of them.

name two..... who are these dissidents? Michael Moore would definitely fit the disciption of a dissident and he is certainly a pain in the proverbial ass of this administration and yet miraculously he continues to spew his garbage and body odor everywhere he waddles his lard ass. This enemy of the President says anything he wants, mostly lies, and he hasn't been touched, held or detained(of course....who would want to soil themselves by touching this cheeze wiz?).

emmett
08-17-2007, 10:31 PM
Reuters reports that Venezuelan "President" Hugo Chavez has proposed abolishing presidential term limits and extending the presidential term from six to seven years:

Under the current constitution, Chavez is in his second and final term and could not be elected again after it ends in 2012. The reform proposal would allow him to stay for as long as he keeps winning elections. "If anyone is going to say this is a project to enthrone oneself, no," Chavez said, in a speech before the legislature that stretched pass midnight. "This is only a possibility, a possibility that depends on many variables."
So even Chavez himself admits that it's "possible" he'll be "enthroned" as a monarch. To bribe the public into accepting his idea, he's also proclaimed he'll reduce the work day from eight to six hours. Yikes.

http://publiuspundit.com/americas/venezuela/


why do libs always side with dictators and the enemies of Amercia?

And we chastized Pat Robertson for his statement about needing to take him out long before he became a problem to most Americans.

gabosaurus
08-17-2007, 10:40 PM
name two.

The House of Saud and Ghadaffi for two. We also support the Chinese.

Sitarro
08-17-2007, 10:53 PM
The House of Saud and Ghadaffi for two. We also support the Chinese.

actually, I was requesting the names of 2 dissidents that have been harrassed.

Ruby
08-18-2007, 01:18 AM
And we chastized Pat Robertson for his statement about needing to take him out long before he became a problem to most Americans.

How is he a problem for americans? Are you saying the US has a right to determine life and political life and policy in Venezuela...a sovereign nation?

Ruby
08-18-2007, 01:36 AM
Ruby, can you link me to some reading about these outside observers that affirmed the voting? Not disagreeing, just would like to read a bit about the process they took myself.


http://www.cartercenter.org/peace/index.html

Its long but very good in depth and detailed information.

Think about it, the US has dominated the region and that includes economic policy. This policy has not worked for the nations and Venezuela actually has resources that can pull them out. They elect a leader who will change this and the leader does so....he redirects oil profits from private hands into Venezuelan public hands. Is it any wonder that a corp owned media would demonize him?

There are plenty of lies that circulate that no one bothers to question....I doubt anyone would have questioned reds statement that tanks were firing into a lone station...it would just get added to the list of "Chavez's wrongs", nevermind its a lie.

Psychoblues
08-30-2007, 10:49 PM
Hugo is a Giant amongst his peoples. He provides housing, water, electricity, health care and wealth beyond even the wildest of his constituencie's imaginations. The natural resourses of his country overwhelm even the resourses of Saudi Arabia. I don't suppose for a moment that any of you can really dig a fair and honest discussion of a 92% national approval verses a 24% approval. After all, the numbers don't ever make sense when they somehow shed darkness on personal enrichment for the most wealthy.

People are uneducated but they aren't stupid.

manu1959
08-30-2007, 11:03 PM
Hugo is a Giant amongst his peoples. He provides housing, water, electricity, health care and wealth beyond even the wildest of his constituencie's imaginations. The natural resourses of his country overwhelm even the resourses of Saudi Arabia. I don't suppose for a moment that any of you can really dig a fair and honest discussion of a 92% national approval verses a 24% approval. After all, the numbers don't ever make sense when they somehow shed darkness on personal enrichment for the most wealthy.

People are uneducated but they aren't stupid.

why do they protest in the streets?

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-6-6/56172.html

poverty level improved.....

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/21/business/glob22.php

Psychoblues
08-30-2007, 11:06 PM
The 92% approval stands and you can't stand it.



why do they protest in the streets?

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-6-6/56172.html

poverty level improved.....

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/21/business/glob22.php

What did Forrest Gump say? Stupid is as stupid does?

manu1959
08-31-2007, 12:04 AM
The 92% approval stands and you can't stand it. What did Forrest Gump say? Stupid is as stupid does?

actually i don't care what his approval rating is....if 92% of the people think it is great that the poverty leve at 50 60 percent is wonderful and that closing tv stations is wonderful and having a country like cuba is wonderful...then good for them...it is their country....i guess i would be in the 8% there and in jail....for speaking ill of the president....

Psychoblues
08-31-2007, 12:20 AM
Whatever the poverty level is, it is an improvement over the last administration. When a President can determine a GDP and come even close to a fair distribution of national wealth then that is a good thing, don't you think? Per capita, there are still more millionaires in Venezuela than we have here in America.



actually i don't care what his approval rating is....if 92% of the people think it is great that the poverty leve at 50 60 percent is wonderful and that closing tv stations is wonderful and having a country like cuba is wonderful...then good for them...it is their country....i guess i would be in the 8% there and in jail....for speaking ill of the president....

PS. When you post like that you expose your ignorance or is it that you are just drunk?

manu1959
08-31-2007, 12:23 AM
Whatever the poverty level is, it is an improvement over the last administration. When a President can determine a GDP and come even close to a fair distribution of national wealth then that is a good thing, don't you think? Per capita, there are still more millionaires in Venezuela than we have here in America.

PS. When you post like that you expose your ignorance or is it that you are just drunk?

like i said i think it is great that 92% of the people think it is great that the poverty level at 50 60 percent is wonderful and that closing tv stations is wonderful and having a country like cuba is wonderful...then good for them...it is their country....it is better than it was....good for them

is no one in your world allowed to have an opinion different than yours?

Yurt
08-31-2007, 12:23 AM
Hugo is a Giant amongst his peoples. He provides housing, water, electricity, health care and wealth beyond even the wildest of his constituencie's imaginations. The natural resourses of his country overwhelm even the resourses of Saudi Arabia. I don't suppose for a moment that any of you can really dig a fair and honest discussion of a 92% national approval verses a 24% approval. After all, the numbers don't ever make sense when they somehow shed darkness on personal enrichment for the most wealthy.

People are uneducated but they aren't stupid.

Saddam had a 99% approval rating.

Psychoblues
08-31-2007, 01:02 AM
Good catch, yurt. That was an internal Iraqi poll wasn't it?



Saddam had a 99% approval rating.

The Chavez poll was an independent poll sanctioned by AP, McClatchy, and other organizations respected by American poll watchers. Care to extrapolate your observation?

avatar4321
08-31-2007, 02:11 AM
Good catch, yurt. That was an internal Iraqi poll wasn't it?




The Chavez poll was an independent poll sanctioned by AP, McClatchy, and other organizations respected by American poll watchers. Care to extrapolate your observation?

pretty easy to get an approval rating in the 90% when you kill everyone that opposes you.

nevadamedic
08-31-2007, 02:14 AM
pretty easy to get an approval rating in the 90% when you kill everyone that opposes you.

Yup, im surprised that he didn't have 100% :laugh2:

Psychoblues
08-31-2007, 02:20 AM
Whatever.


Yup, im surprised that he didn't have 100% :laugh2:

It beats anything you have.

nevadamedic
08-31-2007, 02:23 AM
Whatever.



It beats anything you have.

Ohhhh that really hurt Mr. Hipocritical Liar. :pee:

Psychoblues
08-31-2007, 02:45 AM
You still haven't shown anything I ever said and that you dispute and can prove a lie.


Ohhhh that really hurt Mr. Hipocritical Liar. :pee:

Have you enjoyed all you can of this? :pee::dance::pee:

nevadamedic
08-31-2007, 02:51 AM
You still haven't shown anything I ever said and that you dispute and can prove a lie.



Have you enjoyed all you can of this? :pee::dance::pee:

Ok Mr. Lying Hipocrit.

Yurt
08-31-2007, 01:05 PM
pretty easy to get an approval rating in the 90% when you kill everyone that opposes you.

:lmao::lmao::boom2: