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Balu
01-05-2017, 02:48 PM
Stop Poking the Bear http://nationalinterest.org/files/styles/main_image_on_posts/public/main_images/putin_1_0.jpg?itok=PgBe8zYr
Give diplomacy a chance. Stop provoking Moscow.

Robert W. Merry (http://nationalinterest.org/profile/robert-w-merry-0)
<time pubdate="" datetime="2016-12-24T21:15:12-05:00">December 24, 2016</time>

Editor’s Note: TNI’s January/February 2017 (http://nationalinterest.org/issue/january-february-2017) print issue convened a symposium on the most significant national-security challenge awaiting the Trump administration. You can find all entries in the series here (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-next-trump-18788).
THE GRAVEST crisis facing America and the West is also the most unnecessary: the ominous deterioration in relations with Russia. Far from the danger posed during the Cold War, Russia nonetheless remains positioned upon the crucial Eurasian heartland, a strategic bastion that cannot be ignored. It has always been, and remains, a potential threat to Europe, and that must always be borne in mind. And yet the most provocative actions in this relationship in recent years have come from Europe, NATO and America—against Russia. NATO, a military alliance, has expanded right up to the Russian border. It has deployed components of a missile-defense shield in Poland and Romania. NATO has flirted (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/09/georgian-and-ukrainian-officials-push-for-nato-membership/) with allowing both Georgia and Ukraine, both traditionally part of Russia’s sphere of influence, into the Western alliance. U.S. officials undermined the democratically elected leader of Ukraine, whose government tilted toward Russia, and have taken actions bent on pulling Ukraine from Russia’s orbit. When Russia responded by securing Crimea, with its crucial harbor, and providing (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/25/military-ukraine-russia-rebels-separatists/13169977/) military support to rebels in eastern Ukraine who don’t want to be pulled Westward, the United States and Europe imposed (http://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/ukrainerussia/) debilitating economic sanctions.
All this has Russian officials seething. Although Western opinion has demonized (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709028-how-contain-vladimir-putins-deadly-dysfunctional-empire-threat-russia) President Vladimir Putin as an aggressive, land-hungry autocrat, he is but one official. The Kremlin is replete with elites who believe their country now is so beleaguered by these Western encroachments that they want an aggressive pushback strategy, even if it means war.
It could mean war. That would be a disaster for America and the West. For America, it would pull attention and resources away from much more serious strategic threats, most notably the rise of ISIS in the Middle East and the rise of China in Asia. For Europe, it likely would threaten the eastern nations liberated in 1989 after some forty-five years of Soviet domination.
But, of all the 2016 presidential candidates, only Donald Trump embraced a policy prescription designed to reverse the West’s provocative eastward expansion, reduce tensions and test Russia’s true intentions.
Trump should start with Ukraine, a land of crucial strategic significance to Russia, but of paltry strategic consequence to America. It is a tragically split country, with Western-oriented Ukrainians in the western regions and ethnic Russians in the eastern reaches. Russia has dealt with this delicate situation for decades; let it continue. Also, Russia’s annexation of Crimea should never be allowed to sour relations between that country and the West, as Crimea had been part of Russia for centuries until artificially severed (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/02/27/to-understand-crimea-take-a-look-back-at-its-complicated-history/?utm_term=.2d88d555807e) by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev. Besides, some 1.5 of its 2.3 million people are ethnic Russians. Let it go; withdraw the sanctions.
Second, the president should assure Russia that the West has no designs on Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova or Belarus—or, for that matter, any other nations identified with the Orthodox Christian tradition. No NATO designs. But the West would go to war to prevent any Russian meddling in European lands traditionally identified with Western Christendom, most notably the Baltic states. They remain a crucial part of the Western sphere of influence.
Third, the president should cease its insistence that Syria’s President Bashar al-Assad must go. The goal in Syria, as in Iraq, must be the defeat of ISIS, and the anti-Assad fervor merely gets in the way. It also gets in the way of sound relations with Russia, which has aligned itself with Assad and thus has maintained a tighter strategic focus in the region. America should do the same. The enemy is ISIS, not Assad.
Fourth, throughout these diplomatic efforts, designed to assuage Russia’s fears and angers about the West’s eastward expansion, the United States should seek also to pull Russia away from its recent flirtation with China. Solid Russia-China relations are not in America’s interest. China is the country most powerfully positioned to challenge America’s role in the world by forcing it out of Asia and back to its perimeter stronghold of Hawaii. If U.S.-China tensions mounted, as seems likely within the next twenty years, it would be extremely unwise—indeed, foolhardy—for America to also have a hostile relationship with Russia.
So give diplomacy a chance. End the Western provocations. Give the Russians some breathing room in their own neighborhood. And then, we can find out just how expansionist and threatening they really are. If it turns out that they want to be threatening even in the face of these conciliatory actions, then Western power, under American leadership, certainly is sufficient to handle the situation.
Robert W. Merry is a contributing editor at the National Interest and an author of books on American history and foreign policy.
Image (http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/49733/photos/40863): Vladimir Putin at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/stop-poking-the-bear-18838?page=show

Gunny
01-05-2017, 02:51 PM
You don't poke bears. You kill them. All.

Will one of you Trumpiess dial him up and tell him I'm available for SecDef?

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
01-05-2017, 02:59 PM
OBAMA SET THAT STAGE ON HIS WAY OUT, SO AS TO SHAFT TRUMP.
Which is just more of obama's continued agenda of harming this nation he hates!
The bastard, is one of the lowest forms of life on earth IMHO..
Where is Zeus with a very well placed lightning bolt when we need him?? :laugh::laugh:

Lucky for us, that Trump has already taken action, to avoid that trap the traitor obama and his allies set!
AND PUTIN AS WELL, SAW IT FOR THE OBAMA TRAP THAT IT WAS/IS.....--Tyr

Abbey Marie
01-05-2017, 03:07 PM
Not to worry; see the "I'd like to see" thread, in Announcements.

Gunny
01-05-2017, 03:12 PM
OBAMA SET THAT STAGE ON HIS WAY OUT, SO AS TO SHAFT TRUMP.
Which is just more of obama's continued agenda of harming this nation he hates!
The bastard, is one of the lowest forms of life on earth IMHO..
Where is Zeus with a very well placed lightning bolt when we need him?? :laugh::laugh:

Lucky for us, that Trump has already taken action, to avoid that trap the traitor obama and his allies set!
AND PUTIN AS WELL, SAW IT FOR THE OBAMA TRAP THAT IT WAS/IS.....--Tyr

I honestly don't believe it was aimed at Trump. He's been shafting the US since the day he took office. Just another day at the office for is useless a$$.

Balu
01-05-2017, 06:15 PM
OBAMA SET THAT STAGE ON HIS WAY OUT, SO AS TO SHAFT TRUMP.
Which is just more of obama's continued agenda of harming this nation he hates!
The bastard, is one of the lowest forms of life on earth IMHO..
Where is Zeus with a very well placed lightning bolt when we need him?? :laugh::laugh:

Lucky for us, that Trump has already taken action, to avoid that trap the traitor obama and his allies set!
AND PUTIN AS WELL, SAW IT FOR THE OBAMA TRAP THAT IT WAS/IS.....--Tyr
I gave not a piece of no propaganda. I've given the thoughts of an American. Then let us see..

Gunny
01-05-2017, 08:24 PM
I gave not a piece of no propaganda. I've given the thoughts of an American. Then let us see..

Everything you post is propaganda to us. How many times do I need to point that out? For someone who thinks he's so smart, the obvious is kicking your ass.

gabosaurus
01-05-2017, 11:02 PM
We will stop poking the bear when the bear stops spying on us.
We won't even talk about the doped up bears that have cheating over the last few decades of international athletic competition. :cool:

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6dcc09b67125c84ee25ecdb14a6e2bdd-c?convert_to_webp=true

Balu
01-05-2017, 11:56 PM
We will stop poking the bear when the bear stops spying on us.


You must be joking... :laugh::clap:
You want to dismiss all YOUR Intelligence Service and its officers to convince us stop spying on you, or you think that we all are from Texas? :laugh:

Gunny
01-06-2017, 12:26 AM
You must be joking... :laugh::clap:
You want to dismiss all YOUR Intelligence Service and its officers to convince us stop spying on you, or you think that we all are from Texas? :laugh:

Pick on the right person, dirtbag. First off, if you were Texas you'd already be dead. Typical though, picking on a girl. Best you can do in a fight? We let our little ladies sit in the stands and watch. In their little sundresses.

You make a post about poking the bear? Stand up and fight motherfucker. Leaving me alone is a good policy. You're all mouth. And liar. No one in the military talks as much as you. And we all stick to what we're good at. You seem to be an expert at every level and service. No one except a cut n paste moron knows as much as you claim to.

Now... bring it ....

Balu
01-06-2017, 12:31 AM
We won't even talk about the doped up bears that have cheating over the last few decades of international athletic competition. :cool:


http://cs628831.vk.me/v628831245/3dd96/bUUHC5M-B10.jpg

Gunny
01-06-2017, 12:32 AM
Pick on the right person, dirtbag. First off, if you were Texas you'd already be dead. Typical though, picking on a girl. Best you can do in a fight? We let our little ladies sit in the stands and watch. In their little sundresses.

You make a post about poking the bear? Stand up and fight motherfucker. Leaving me alone is a good policy. You're all mouth. And liar. No one in the military talks as much as you. And we all stick to what we're good at. You seem to be an expert at every level and service. No one except a cut n paste moron knows as much as you claim to.

Now... bring it ....

@blackdiamond is there that fingers drum rolling on the wood emoticon? I';m waiting on his ass ......

Gunny
01-06-2017, 12:46 AM
@blackdiamond is there that fingers drum rolling on the wood emoticon? I';m waiting on his ass ......

You're on the board and I know it. Man up or be a pussy. You fucked with the wrong asshole.

Or is your brave self just waiting for me to go to sleep? Then you can cut n paste some more bullshit. You talk all this tough shit and not once have I ever seen you take anyone on.

Black Diamond
01-06-2017, 12:52 AM
@blackdiamond is there that fingers drum rolling on the wood emoticon? I';m waiting on his ass ......

:whistle:

Balu
01-06-2017, 12:58 AM
I wonder why?
A person (Mozart is a Great composer) keep on replying being aware that he is on my ignore list...
Can anybody tell me if honey-Gunny who is so funny is from Texas besides he is a Sarge?

Gunny
01-06-2017, 01:08 AM
I wonder why?
A person (Mozart is a Great composer) keep on replying being aware that he is on my ignore list...
Can anybody tell me if honey-Gunny who is so funny is from Texas besides he is a Sarge?


No, Mr Russia is great, I'm you're worst nightmare. I'm raised and trained to kill every damned one of you, And I'm good at it. You think you're so smart and run your mouth, but that mouth can't talk you out of a 7,6 mm round at 16k ft per second. Because I'm such a dumbass grunt. you're nothing to me but soemting to aim at win an Mo4A1.

Just another tag on the jacket.

Drummond
01-06-2017, 09:21 AM
It might be just a little beside the specific point of the thread as I understand it to have evolved ... but a 'stop poking the bear' plea concerning Russia is just a 'bit' rich !!

Putin's Russia is showing signs of the belligerence the old Soviet Union was chronically afflicted with. Back are the days when its military forces would probe and challenge other countries' responses to them .. done in internationally illegal ways. I have in mind the great increase there's been of Russia planes encroaching on British airspace without having any legitimate justification for it .. for example.

Crimea speaks for itself -- a land grab, reminding one of the Soviets in taking over the full sovereignty of the Warsaw Pact countries, to maintain their idea of an empire.

Has Putin's belligerence ceased ? Will he henceforth conduct international affairs with due deference to international legality and decency??

WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE HE WOULD, OR WILL ??

Tell you what, Balu. Maybe we should stop 'poking the bear' when the 'bear' stops poking us !!!!

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
01-06-2017, 10:28 AM
Just my little observation but maybe this thread should be moved from the lounge, since is kinda went far south.
Why would anybody here not expect Balu , a retired Russian officer, to defend his nation and do same as we would as we are??
Move my post if need be but I say- we had damn well better start looking at China as the great threat!
They only created and manufactured an anti-aircraft carrier ballistic missile designed specifically to destroy-AMERICAN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS!
Anybody that may want to argue that my reasoning is wrong on this about China being the greater future threat, start a thread or go to the cage.
Or just move this post there.... I am game...
I always look for the greater threat myself , even in real life and its always stood me in good stead!
China and Islam are the great future threats! -Tyr

Gunny
01-06-2017, 10:39 PM
Just my little observation but maybe this thread should be moved from the lounge, since is kinda went far south.
Why would anybody here not expect Balu , a retired Russian officer, to defend his nation and do same as we would as we are??
Move my post if need be but I say- we had damn well better start looking at China as the great threat!
They only created and manufactured an anti-aircraft carrier ballistic missile designed specifically to destroy-AMERICAN AIRCRAFT CARRIERS!
Anybody that may want to argue that my reasoning is wrong on this about China being the greater future threat, start a thread or go to the cage.
Or just move this post there.... I am game...
I always look for the greater threat myself , even in real life and its always stood me in good stead!
China and Islam are the great future threats! -Tyr

Little late to this party, huh, tyr?:laugh: I had another mod look at it earlier. I won't mod my own fights.

Guess who else hasn't shown? I don't care that he defends his country. I expect nothing less. I DO care about him talking down to people. And if he's going to bring it, then bring it. I stand and fight. I expect the same from anyone claiming to be a warrior.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
01-07-2017, 09:42 AM
Little late to this party, huh, tyr?:laugh: I had another mod look at it earlier. I won't mod my own fights.

Guess who else hasn't shown? I don't care that he defends his country. I expect nothing less. I DO care about him talking down to people. And if he's going to bring it, then bring it. I stand and fight. I expect the same from anyone claiming to be a warrior.

I have no problem with you guys battling. I have no problem with Balu defending his country as we do that in spades ourselves.
I just wanted to point out that Russia is not now our top enemy.
Thus, I take no side in this battle you guys are waging.


I stand and fight. I expect the same from anyone claiming to be a warrior.

^^ Well said! As does every ---True Southern Man--- my friend. We agree as we are both Southern born and bred. :beer: :beer:

Balu, does what he thinks best, so I am no part of his attitude or his posts here, unless he mentions me specifically or comments to me directly- as he often does in the Creative Writing sub-forum -about my poetry.

Myself, I find him very interesting and a great source to learn from...
So we have private chats and each learn from our discussions... Know this, he is a very intelligent man..

Carry on.. I am just clearing up my previous comment and what I meant about our true top enemies being China and Islam.. , -Tyr

Kathianne
01-07-2017, 09:54 AM
I have no problem with you guys battling. I have no problem with Balu defending his country as we do that in spades ourselves.
I just wanted to point out that Russia is not now our top enemy.
Thus, I take no side in this battle you guys are waging.



^^ Well said! As does every ---True Southern Man--- my friend. We agree as we are both Southern born and bred. :beer: :beer:

Balu, does what he thinks best, so I am no part of his attitude or his posts here, unless he mentions me specifically or comments to me directly- as he often does in the Creative Writing sub-forum -about my poetry.

Myself, I find him very interesting and a great source to learn from...
So we have private chats and each learn from our discussions... Know this, he is a very intelligent man..

Carry on.. I am just clearing up my previous comment and what I meant about our true top enemies being China and Islam.. , -Tyr
Tyr, I'm not going to argue right or wrong here, just want to throw some stuff out.

You mention Islam, for good reasons.

Remembering the USSR and the system of government, local and geopolitical during the Cold War, how did they engage in that War? Who were their proxies?

Syria, Iran, Turkey, are three prominent allies of Russia.

Putin seems and has for since arriving on the world's stage, very much wanting to return to at minimum the 'greatness' achieved under the USSR regime.

Kathianne
01-07-2017, 11:36 AM
I'm certainly hoping that Trump accomplishes so much that there are lots of people saying, "We're so tired of winning!" I really do.

It does concern me that everything 'good' that has happened with the jobs, stock market, etc., is unquestioningly being attributed to Trump by so many, while everything bad is attributed to the press or Obama. Both of which undoubtedly have truthful bits. Lord knows, I've never been a fan of either Obama or the media, nor of Trump.

Now it's possible that healthy skepticism will return shortly after the inauguration, though undoubtedly Obama will come along and restart the partisanship war. Still, I remain optimistic that the love affair with Russia, Putin, and our own big government spending will calm down some, but not so far.

Right now though, just came across this article from the disreputable WaPo, that nevertheless addresses some of what I wrote above to Tyr regarding our non-enemy, Russia:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/06/how-trump-got-his-party-to-love-russia/?utm_term=.2125f33a2b57


The two types of Republicans who abandoned onetime opposition to support Vladimir Putin. By James Kirchick January 6 at 11:39 AM

For decades, anti-communism united conservatives behind the Republican Party. An otherwise disparate collection of national security hawks, free-market enthusiasts and social traditionalists rallied to the GOP, resolutely committed to checking Soviet influence around the world. All of these constituencies had reason to despise godless, revolution-exporting Bolsheviks. Although Russia no longer subscribes to Marxist-Leninist doctrine, it still presents a threat to the United States, its allies and the liberal world order. Witness its aggression against Ukraine, its intervention in Syria and its support for extremists across Europe.

In Donald Trump, the GOP nominated the most pro-Russian U.S. presidential candidate since Henry Wallace, whose 1948 bid on the Progressive Party ticket was largely run by communists. Throughout last year’s campaign, Trump lavished praise on Russian President (and career KGB agent) Vladimir Putin, attacked NATO and encouraged the Kremlin to hack his Democratic opponent’s emails. He even proposed recognizing Russia’s annexation of the Crimean Peninsula — the first violent European land grab since World War II — a move that would put the United States in the company of Cuba and North Korea. Since the election, he has openly contradicted the intelligence community’s finding that Moscow tampered in our democracy, calling such claims a “political witch-hunt.”

In his victory, Trump is bringing other Republicans along with him. GOP attitudes toward Russia began improving dramatically after Trump announced his candidacy: In July 2014, four months after Putin annexed Crimea, only 10 percent of Republicans held a favorable opinion of Russia’s president, according to an Economist/YouGov poll. Today, that figure is 37 percent. A recent poll by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs found that, while 65 percent of Americans support a congressional inquiry into Russian election interference, a narrow majority (51 percent ) of Republicans oppose it. And a survey released this past week by HuffPost/YouGov showed that 82 percent of Hillary Clinton voters want to maintain sanctions imposed on Moscow in response to its meddling, while only 16 percent of Trump voters do. Now that Russia has dropped its official atheism and anti-capitalism, claiming to be the protector of traditional values and Christendom, a growing number of American conservatives are receptive to Trump’s Russian rapprochement.

Pro-Russian converts on the American right appear to take two forms. The opportunists simply want power and are willing to sacrifice principles in pursuit of it. The ideologues, meanwhile, see Russia as nothing worse than an occasional nuisance, if not a potential ally in the fight against Islamic extremism.

...

Though the opportunists outnumber the ideologues, it’s the true believers who could pose the greatest damage to U.S. foreign policy over the long term. Their proposed strategic realignment with Moscow, predicated upon shared opposition to vaguely defined “Islamic terrorism,” is seductive but wrong: Far from being a potential partner in the fight against Islamic terrorism, Russia does much to stoke it.

...

jimnyc
01-07-2017, 02:29 PM
Ain't getting my ass involved, I like all involved. But I will say this much - I believe one should not ignore another if they are currently talking smack about that person. Take it to the cage and be a man and go back and forth - OR - do as Tyr says, defend your country, which is honorable of one to do and expected. But ignoring and poking at the same time? I would say either properly go back and forth - or 'completely' ignore someone and not poke at them. My 2 cents, which isn't even worth that much 'round these parts. :)

Gunny
01-07-2017, 09:22 PM
Tyr, I'm not going to argue right or wrong here, just want to throw some stuff out.

You mention Islam, for good reasons.

Remembering the USSR and the system of government, local and geopolitical during the Cold War, how did they engage in that War? Who were their proxies?

Syria, Iran, Turkey, are three prominent allies of Russia.

Putin seems and has for since arriving on the world's stage, very much wanting to return to at minimum the 'greatness' achieved under the USSR regime.

Correction, ma'am. Turkey is an ally of Turkey. Turks think they are better than all of us. Any deal anyone makes with them need to keep your hand on your wallet. I lived in that place for 2+ years. Only we think we destroyed the Ottoman Empire. No one has convinced them a bit.

As far as the other part goes, I was born and bred to kill commies. Got to be able to find them first. One seems to be noticeably missing (I didn't do it). :laugh: