Trump: "Islam is one of the world's great religions"

[gabosaurus]

Has the emperor lost all his clothes yet? Will the Jim Jones of politics still be able to hawk his Kool-Aid to he faithful?
I have to wonder how breitbart is going to spin this one.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/21/politics/trump-saudi-arabia-speech-terror-rhetoric/index.html


There he was Sunday, standing at the front of a vast reception hall, declaring Islam one of the world's great religions while encouraging leaders to disavow terrorists. And there he was Saturday night, swaying to rhythmic lyrics in Arabic, only a year after deriding Islam as a religion based in hatred and vowing to bar all Muslims from entering the United States.

[NightTrain]

Has the emperor lost all his clothes yet? Will the Jim Jones of politics still be able to hawk his Kool-Aid to he faithful?
I have to wonder how breitbart is going to spin this one.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/21/politics/trump-saudi-arabia-speech-terror-rhetoric/index.html

Except he didn't say that, idiot.

How's that Kool Aid?

[aboutime]

Has the emperor lost all his clothes yet? Will the Jim Jones of politics still be able to hawk his Kool-Aid to he faithful?
I have to wonder how breitbart is going to spin this one.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/21/politics/trump-saudi-arabia-speech-terror-rhetoric/index.html



gabby. FAKE NEWS, DOCTORED NEWS got you down? Sounds like YOU are the one who should be wondering if YOU lost all of your clothes. But many of us can laugh it off, knowing you love to prove you are like MAXINE WATERS, and both of you lost your minds at the same time. Difference is. She's obviously YOUNGER than you are.

[pete311]

His exact quote is "Saudi Arabia is home to the holiest sites in one of the world's great faiths."
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2017/05/21/full-text-donald-trumps-speech-saudi-arabia/

[gabosaurus]

Except he didn't say that, idiot. How's that Kool Aid? Except that he did and you didn't want to hear it. Stay thirsty and hungry, my friend. :cool:

[NightTrain]

Except that he did and you didn't want to hear it. Stay thirsty and hungry, my friend. :cool:

Did he?


There he was Sunday, standing at the front of a vast reception hall, declaring Islam one of the world's great religions while encouraging leaders to disavow terrorists. And there he was Saturday night, swaying to rhythmic lyrics in Arabic, only a year after deriding Islam as a religion based in hatred and vowing to bar all Muslims from entering the United States.


Back it up, Moonbat.

Or, run away and pretend this never happened like you always do when you say something stupid.

[pete311]

Did he?

Back it up, Moonbat.

Or, run away and pretend this never happened like you always do when you say something stupid.

gabby is paraphrasing his exact quote which I provided. It doesn't change the message.

[NightTrain]

gabby is paraphrasing his exact quote which I provided. It doesn't change the message.

She intentionally distorted - nay, lied - to provide moonbat spin to twist his words into something he never said.

Now you'd like to defend the indefensible?

[jimnyc]

His exact quote is "Saudi Arabia is home to the holiest sites in one of the world's great faiths."
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2017/05/21/full-text-donald-trumps-speech-saudi-arabia/


Except that he did and you didn't want to hear it. Stay thirsty and hungry, my friend. :cool:


gabby is paraphrasing his exact quote which I provided. It doesn't change the message.


She intentionally distorted - nay, lied - to provide moonbat spin to twist his words into something he never said.

Now you'd like to defend the indefensible?

When did he EVER say he wanted to ban "ALL" muslims? No different than him wanting to go after ALL aliens, when it was just illegals.

But I could be wrong, and I'm sure gabby and pete will quote exactly where he said this about every muslim on earth.

[pete311]

She intentionally distorted - nay, lied - to provide moonbat spin to twist his words into something he never said.

Now you'd like to defend the indefensible?

How are the two different?

[pete311]

When did he EVER say he wanted to ban "ALL" muslims? No different than him wanting to go after ALL aliens, when it was just illegals.

But I could be wrong, and I'm sure gabby and pete will quote exactly where he said this about every muslim on earth.

Where is your claim made by me or gabby?

[jimnyc]

Where is your claim made by me or gabby?

Gabby posted it, NT said he didn't say it, and both of you stated he didn't. It's right there in the article, the articles that you guys rarely read after the headlines:

only a year after deriding Islam as a religion based in hatred and vowing to bar all Muslims from entering the United States.

[NightTrain]

How are the two different?


Where is your claim made by me or gabby?


There he was Sunday, standing at the front of a vast reception hall, declaring Islam one of the world's great religions while encouraging leaders to disavow terrorists. And there he was Saturday night, swaying to rhythmic lyrics in Arabic, only a year after deriding Islam as a religion based in hatred and vowing to bar all Muslims from entering the United States.


Okay, then. Where did Trump ever say the bolded?

Any link from AP will suffice.

[Black Diamond]

Gabby posted it, NT said he didn't say it, and both of you stated he didn't. It's right there in the article, the articles that you guys rarely read after the headlines:

only a year after deriding Islam as a religion based in hatred and vowing to bar all Muslims from entering the United States.
What you just said is exactly what I have been talking about. The headlines are what people read. Americans are too lazy to dig two inches below the surface and the consequences could be devastating.

[jimnyc]

What you just said is exactly what I have been talking about. The headlines are what people read. Americans are too lazy to dig two inches below the surface and the consequences could be devastating.

I'll bet neither one read the entire article, nor did either one see anything wrong with the "all muslims" portion, which is 100% wrong. But they'll run with it anyway, or say that's what he meant or whatever.

And that's why some of the retarded MSM places use such extravagant titles in their articles, because they know that many are headline readers that don't investigate, and don't read entire articles, don't read multiple sites to get 'all' the truth or news.

But even scarier, is "some" running with things like "Trump wants to kick out all immigrants" or "Trump stated all Mexicans coming are rapists and criminals" - they like that word ALL, even if it's never actually stated by the person they are condemning. And no matter how many times folks are corrected, they continue in that fashion anyway. And EVEN WORSE are the MSM places that still use those phrases.

[jimnyc]

And on point, as to what Trump is saying over there...

Sure, in a perfect world I wish he would say "Look, you leaders, there is a HUEG effing problem with ISLAMIC terrorism and I don't see you all doing much..." type of terminology. But he's abroad with other leaders. Folks complain about how he speaks... he goes there and is speaking like a LEADER. There are times and places for everything.

But Dems and haters - he is condemned non-stop for how he speaks, that he needs to change his tone and what not - then when he does he gets condemned or ridiculed. Fact is though, he's doing just fine thus far on his trip. :)

[NightTrain]

And on point, as to what Trump is saying over there...

Sure, in a perfect world I wish he would say "Look, you leaders, there is a HUEG effing problem with ISLAMIC terrorism and I don't see you all doing much..." type of terminology. But he's abroad with other leaders. Folks complain about how he speaks... he goes there and is speaking like a LEADER. There are times and places for everything.

But Dems and haters - he is condemned non-stop for how he speaks, that he needs to change his tone and what not - then when he does he gets condemned or ridiculed. Fact is though, he's doing just fine thus far on his trip. :)

Yup.

He'll get a big bounce out of this trip and that scares the hell out of the moonbats.

Let us hope that the administration learned about momentum in the last couple of weeks. It's a powerful thing and critical to a successful presidency.

A flurry of carefully planned activity when he returns would be ideal, and I'm thinking that's why Priebus and Bannon returned - to map out a blitzkrieg to capitalize on the bounce.

[NightTrain]

pete311 Well, go on, then. Defend it.


How are the two different?


Where is your claim made by me or gabby?


There he was Sunday, standing at the front of a vast reception hall, declaring Islam one of the world's great religions while encouraging leaders to disavow terrorists. And there he was Saturday night, swaying to rhythmic lyrics in Arabic, only a year after deriding Islam as a religion based in hatred and vowing to bar all Muslims from entering the United States.


Okay, then. Where did Trump ever say the bolded?

Any link from AP will suffice.

[Black Diamond]

Yup.

He'll get a big bounce out of this trip and that scares the hell out of the moonbats.

Let us hope that the administration learned about momentum in the last couple of weeks. It's a powerful thing and critical to a successful presidency.

A flurry of carefully planned activity when he returns would be ideal, and I'm thinking that's why Priebus and Bannon returned - to map out a blitzkrieg to capitalize on the bounce.
Hooefully the left plays the role of the French.

[pete311]

@pete311 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=1821) Well, go on, then. Defend it.








Okay, then. Where did Trump ever say the bolded?

Any link from AP will suffice.

"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on," a campaign press release said.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-immigration/

[NightTrain]

"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on," a campaign press release said.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-immigration/

Attaboy.

You're partway there.

[jimnyc]

I'll admit I was wrong - I didn't know he ever put it in such terms. That was on the trail.

I thought we were talking about his 2 travel bans that haven't gotten through as president. Either way, I was wrong. :)

[Gunny]

Except that he did and you didn't want to hear it. Stay thirsty and hungry, my friend. :cool:Looks to me like you lose again. Even Pete corrected you.:laugh:

[NightTrain]

pete311

Still waiting on you to back up Gabby's claim.

[pete311]

@pete311 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=1821)

Still waiting on you to back up Gabby's claim.

Already gave you a source for the bolded text.

[NightTrain]

Already gave you a source for the bolded text.

Not really.


There he was Sunday, standing at the front of a vast reception hall, declaring Islam one of the world's great religions while encouraging leaders to disavow terrorists. And there he was Saturday night, swaying to rhythmic lyrics in Arabic, only a year after deriding Islam as a religion based in hatred and vowing to bar all Muslims from entering the United States.

Partially, as I said before.

The hatred part is quite crucial to the blatant lies the moonbat espouses.

I'm kind of surprised you'd go to bat to defend her idiocy. Gabby doesn't even defend Gabby's posts because it's impossible to and you end up looking like an ass.

[pete311]

Not really.



Partially, as I said before.

The hatred part is quite crucial to the blatant lies the moonbat espouses.

I'm kind of surprised you'd go to bat to defend her idiocy. Gabby doesn't even defend Gabby's posts because it's impossible to and you end up looking like an ass.

He has made several in the ballpark statements on twitter.

[NightTrain]

He has made several in the ballpark statements on twitter.

So, what Gabby posted isn't true then, is it?

[pete311]

So, what Gabby posted isn't true then, is it?

Looks true to me. He has several tweets that shows contempt for Islam and condemns Islam for hatred.

[Black Diamond]

Looks true to me. He has several tweets that shows contempt for Islam and condemns Islam for hatred.
since consistency is all that matters, he should have called them all sand niggers in his speech and threatened to wipe them off the map.

[pete311]

since consistency is all that matters, he should have called them all sand niggers in his speech and threatened to wipe them off the map.

yeah... :slap:

[NightTrain]

Looks true to me. He has several tweets that shows contempt for Islam and condemns Islam for hatred.

Where does he say islam is based in hatred?

[Black Diamond]

Where does he say islam is based in hatred?
I'm sure he doesn't.

[NightTrain]

I'm sure he doesn't.

Agree.

[pete311]

I'm sure he doesn't.

March 2016: In an interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper, Mr. Trump says: "I think Islam hates us. There's something there. There's a tremendous hatred there."

Like I said, ballpark.

[NightTrain]

March 2016: In an interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper, Mr. Trump says: "I think Islam hates us. There's something there. There's a tremendous hatred there."

Like I said, ballpark.

Nope. He didn't say it.

Therefore, the statement that Gabby made is a lie. It isn't the first one she's made here on the board, by a long shot.

[Black Diamond]

March 2016: In an interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper, Mr. Trump says: "I think Islam hates us. There's something there. There's a tremendous hatred there."

Like I said, ballpark.
In the same way that Russia meddling in our election is in the ballpark of "Trump and Putin stole the election from Hillary".

[aboutime]

petey. Laughable again, with your hatred. The only "BALLPARK" you, and gabby know, are the URINALS in the stadium men's room. Even Hillary thinks like you two!

http://icansayit.com/images/HILL.JPG

[pete311]

tremendous work everyone, what a great victory. high fives everyone!

[pete311]

Nope. He didn't say it.

Therefore, the statement that Gabby made is a lie. It isn't the first one she's made here on the board, by a long shot.

It's a quote from somewhere else first of all. Paraphrasing is not lying.

[aboutime]

tremendous work everyone, what a great victory. talk about lame


Good to finally see...YOU like it when we TALK ABOUT YOU!
The definition of LIBERAL LAME-NESS.http://lame.politifake.org/image/political/1406/the-art-science-must-liberal-science-brought-technological-m-politics-1403245984.jpghttp://eheadlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/liberalscry.jpg

[BoogyMan]

gabby is paraphrasing his exact quote which I provided. It doesn't change the message.

The quote that you posted and Gabby tried to twist is subject to a lot of interpretation. It very well could be that he is referencing the huge number of adherents to Islam. When you intend to deceive you can make a LOT out of a quote.

[gabosaurus]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/09/politics/donald-trump-islam-hates-us/


"I think Islam hates us," Trump told CNN's Anderson Cooper, deploring the "tremendous hatred" that he said partly defined the religion. He maintained the war was against radical Islam, but said, "it's very hard to define. It's very hard to separate. Because you don't know who's who."

A timeline of Trump's many statements about Islam, most of which he has backtracked on while seeking investments and business deals with Saudi Arabia. Which trained and sponsored the majority of the 9-11 hijackers and is known to finance world terrorism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/05/20/i-think-islam-hates-us-a-timeline-of-trumps-comments-about-islam-and-muslims/


Nov. 16, 2015: Following a series of terrorist attacks in Paris, Trump said on MSNBC that he would “strongly consider” closing mosques. “I would hate to do it, but it's something that you're going to have to strongly consider because some of the ideas and some of the hatred — the absolute hatred — is coming from these areas,” he said.

[aboutime]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/09/politics/donald-trump-islam-hates-us/



A timeline of Trump's many statements about Islam, most of which he has backtracked on while seeking investments and business deals with Saudi Arabia. Which trained and sponsored the majority of the 9-11 hijackers and is known to finance world terrorism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/05/20/i-think-islam-hates-us-a-timeline-of-trumps-comments-about-islam-and-muslims/


gabby. You really are a troll. Posting all of that above, all without saying, or admitting that the 9-11 hijackers from Saudi Arabia were outlaws, and had been identified as ENEMIES of Saudi. Of course. You couldn't say that because it would disprove your statement factually.

But if you really were honest, and used truthfulness. You would have compared those 9-11 hijackers to Americans who live in CHICAGO, PHILLY, or NEW YORK who decided to become lone wolf terrorists, and killed Americans.
That kind of HONESTY is BENEATH YOU, and OTHER LIBERALS WHO PRACTICE your hatred like you honored HILLARY.

[Drummond]

"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on," a campaign press release said.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-immigration/

I'd like to think that even YOU would agree that a President's duty is to act in accordance with his country's best security interests ? To keep American citizens safe from harm from an enemy ? Yes ?

So given that, how did Trump say anything which violated that duty ? Far from it, I suggest he spoke to PURSUE such an interest, and mandate.

What Trump proposed was a temporary ban. One held in place until, as he said himself, 'our country's representatives can figure out what is going on'.

This says a couple of things.

1. A review of 'what is going on' was Trump's aim.

2. It would be lifted once security concerns were addressed - as and when they were, of course.

3. The aim was to further security interests, and simply that.

The Left, but of course, has sought to demonise Trump's statement and intentions. Its intended context, when viewed dispassionately, was clear. Concern for American security was what was being addressed, AS BEFITS THE DUTY OF A RESPONSIBLE PRESIDENT.

But you don't like that. Do you, Pete ? H'mm ?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/09/politics/donald-trump-islam-hates-us/



A timeline of Trump's many statements about Islam, most of which he has backtracked on while seeking investments and business deals with Saudi Arabia. Which trained and sponsored the majority of the 9-11 hijackers and is known to finance world terrorism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/05/20/i-think-islam-hates-us-a-timeline-of-trumps-comments-about-islam-and-muslims/

Trump does not want to ban --ALL-- MUSLIMS----- BUT I DO....
I know this one sad and tragic truth, any muslim telling you they do not support jihad, murder of non-believers is either lying to you face to face or else lying about being a muslim. It is called Taqiyya and is taught as a core part of their commanded faith. Such is taught as they are children. Fact. -Tyr



http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

Deception, Lying and Taqiyya

Does Islam permit Muslims to lie?

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.
Quran
Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim should appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel that way..

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir (vol 4, p 49)

Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.
Hadith and Sira
Sahih Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Sahih Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy."

Sahih Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Sahih Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... (See the Permissible Lying section on the Sharia page for more)

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie."
Notes
Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. There are several forms:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true as it relates to the Muslim identity.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Tawriya - Intentionally creating a false impression.

Muruna - 'Blending in' by setting aside some practices of Islam or Sharia in order to advance others.

Though not called taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later. Some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.

At the time, Usayr ibn Zarim was attempting to gather an armed force against the Muslims from among a tribe allied with the Quraish (against which Muhammad had already declared war). Muhammad's "emissaries" went to ibn Zarim and persuaded him to leave his safe haven on the pretext of meeting with the prophet of Islam in Medina to discuss peace. Once vulnerable, the leader and his thirty companions were massacred by the Muslims with ease, probably because they were unarmed - having been given a guarantee of safe passage (Ibn Ishaq 981).

Such was the reputation of Muslims for lying and then killing that even those who "accepted Islam" did not feel entirely safe. Consider the fate of the Jadhima. When Muslim "missionaries" approached their tribe, one of the members insisted that they would be slaughtered even though they had already "converted" to Islam to avoid just such a demise. However, the others believed they could trust the Muslim leader's promise that they would not be harmed if they simply offered no resistance. (After convincing the skeptic to lay down his arms, the unarmed men of the tribe were quickly tied up and beheaded - Ibn Ishaq 834 & 837).

Today's Muslims often rationalize Muhammad's murder of poets and others who criticized him at Medina by falsely claiming that they broke a treaty with their actions. Yet, these same apologists place little value on treaties broken by Muslims. From Muhammad to Saddam Hussein, promises made to non-Muslim are distinctly non-binding in the Muslim mindset.

Leaders in the Arab world sometimes say one thing to English-speaking audiences and then something entirely different to their own people in Arabic. Yassir Arafat was famous for telling Western newspapers about his desire for peace with Israel, then turning right around and whipping Palestinians into a hateful and violent frenzy against Jews.

The 9/11 hijackers practiced deception by going into bars and drinking alcohol, thus throwing off potential suspicion that they were fundamentalists plotting jihad. This effort worked so well that John Walsh, the host of a popular American television show, claimed well after the fact that their bar trips were evidence of 'hypocrisy.'

The transmission from Flight 93 records the hijackers telling their doomed passengers that there is "a bomb on board" but that everyone will "be safe" as long as "their demands are met." Obviously none of this was true, but these men, who were so intensely devoted to Islam that they were willing to "slay and be slain for the cause of Allah" (as the Quran puts it) saw nothing wrong with employing taqiyya to facilitate their mission of mass murder.

The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) insists that it "has not now or ever been involved with the Muslim Brotherhood, or supported any covert, illegal, or terrorist activity or organization." In fact, it was created by the Muslim Brotherhood and has bankrolled Hamas. At least nine founders or board members of ISNA have been accused by prosecutors of supporting terrorism.

The notorious Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) is so well known for shamelessly lying about its ties to terror and extremism that books have been written on the subject. They take seriously the part of Sharia that says "it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory". The goal being the ascendency of Islam (and Sharia itself) on the American landscape.

Prior to engineering several deadly terror plots, such as the Fort Hood massacre and the attempt to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner, American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki was regularly sought out by NPR, PBS and even government leaders to expound on the peaceful nature of Islam.

In 2013, a scholar at the prestigious al-Azhar university decreed that Muslims may wear the cross in order to deceive Christians into thinking they are friendly. He cited 3:28 which says not to be friends with non-Muslims unless it is a way of "guarding" yourself against them.

The Quran says in several places that Allah is the best at deceiving people. An interesting side note is verse 7:99, which says that the only people who feel secure from Allah are those destined for Hell. Taken literally, this could mean that Muslims who arrogantly assume that they will enter heaven are in for a rude surprise (such are the hazards of worshipping an all-powerful deceiver).

The near absence of Quranic verses and reliable Hadith that encourage truthfulness is somewhat surprising, given that many Muslims are convinced their religion teaches honesty. In fact, many Muslims are honest because of this. But when lying is addressed in the Quran, it is nearly always in reference to the "lies against Allah" - referring to the Jews and Christians who rejected Muhammad's claim to being a prophet.

Finally, the circumstances by which Muhammad allowed a believer to lie to a non-spouse are limited to those that either advance the cause of Islam or enable a Muslim to avoid harm to his well-being (and presumably that of other Muslims as well). Although this should be kept very much in mind when dealing with matters of global security, such as Iran's nuclear intentions, it is not grounds for assuming that the Muslim one might personally encounter on the street or in the workplace is any less honest than anyone else.


Additional Reading:
Taqiyya about Taqiyya (Raymond Ibrahim)
Knowing the Four Forms of Lying
Muruna: Violating Sharia to Fool the West


----------------------------------------


Quranic basis:

Regarding 3:28, Ibn Kathir writes, "meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly." He quotes Muhammad's companion, Abu Ad-Darda', who said "we smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them," and Al-Hasan who said "the Tuqyah is acceptable till the Day of Resurrection."[19]

Note this ye unbelievers in the truth I bring, taken from the example above!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-Tyr

" He quotes Muhammad's companion, Abu Ad-Darda', who said "we smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them,"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

The Articulation of Taqiyya



Taqiyya is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it … We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream … Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era.[5]

Taqiyya is, therefore, not, as is often supposed, an exclusively Shi'i phenomenon. Of course, as a minority group interspersed among their Sunni enemies, the Shi'a have historically had more reason to dissemble. Conversely, Sunni Islam rapidly dominated vast empires from Spain to China. As a result, its followers were beholden to no one, had nothing to apologize for, and had no need to hide from the infidel nonbeliever (rare exceptions include Spain and Portugal during the Reconquista when Sunnis did dissimulate over their religious identity[6]). Ironically, however, Sunnis living in the West today find themselves in the place of the Shi'a: Now they are the minority surrounded by their traditional enemies—Christian infidels—even if the latter, as opposed to their Reconquista predecessors, rarely act on, let alone acknowledge, this historic enmity. In short, Sunnis are currently experiencing the general circumstances that made taqiyya integral to Shi'ism although without the physical threat that had so necessitated it.


Qur'anic verse 3:28 is often seen as the primary verse that sanctions deception towards non-Muslims: "Let believers [Muslims] not take infidels [non-Muslims] for friends and allies instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with God—unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions."[7]

Muhammad ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d. 923), author of a standard and authoritative Qur'an commentary, explains verse 3:28 as follows:

If you [Muslims] are under their [non-Muslims'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them with your tongue while harboring inner animosity for them … [know that] God has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels rather than other believers—except when infidels are above them [in authority]. Should that be the case, let them act friendly towards them while preserving their religion.[8]

Regarding Qur'an 3:28, Ibn Kathir (d. 1373), another prime authority on the Qur'an, writes, "Whoever at any time or place fears … evil [from non-Muslims] may protect himself through outward show." As proof of this, he quotes Muhammad's close companion Abu Darda, who said, "Let us grin in the face of some people while our hearts curse them." Another companion, simply known as Al-Hasan, said, "Doing taqiyya is acceptable till the Day of Judgment [i.e., in perpetuity]."[9]

Other prominent scholars, such as Abu 'Abdullah al-Qurtubi (1214-73) and Muhyi 'd-Din ibn al-Arabi (1165-1240), have extended taqiyya to cover deeds. In other words, Muslims can behave like infidels and worse—for example, by bowing down and worshiping idols and crosses, offering false testimony, and even exposing the weaknesses of their fellow Muslims to the infidel enemy—anything short of actually killing a Muslim: "Taqiyya, even if committed without duress, does not lead to a state of infidelity—even if it leads to sin deserving of hellfire."[10]
Deceit in Muhammad's Military Exploits

Muhammad—whose example as the "most perfect human" is to be followed in every detail—took an expedient view on lying. It is well known, for instance, that he permitted lying in three situations: to reconcile two or more quarreling parties, to placate one's wife, and in war.[11] According to one Arabic legal manual devoted to jihad as defined by the four schools of law, "The ulema agree that deception during warfare is legitimate … deception is a form of art in war."[12] Moreover, according to Mukaram, this deception is classified as taqiyya: "Taqiyya in order to dupe the enemy is permissible."[13]

Several ulema believe deceit is integral to the waging of war: Ibn al-'Arabi declares that "in the Hadith [sayings and actions of Muhammad], practicing deceit in war is well demonstrated. Indeed, its need is more stressed than the need for courage." Ibn al-Munir (d. 1333) writes, "War is deceit, i.e., the most complete and perfect war waged by a holy warrior is a war of deception, not confrontation, due to the latter's inherent danger, and the fact that one can attain victory through treachery without harm [to oneself]." And Ibn Hajar (d. 1448) counsels Muslims "to take great caution in war, while [publicly] lamenting and mourning in order to dupe the infidels."[14]

This Muslim notion that war is deceit goes back to the Battle of the Trench (627), which pitted Muhammad and his followers against several non-Muslim tribes known as Al-Ahzab. One of the Ahzab, Na'im ibn Mas'ud, went to the Muslim camp and converted to Islam. When Muhammad discovered that the Ahzab were unaware of their co-tribalist's conversion, he counseled Mas'ud to return and try to get the pagan forces to abandon the siege. It was then that Muhammad memorably declared, "For war is deceit." Mas'ud returned to the Ahzab without their knowing that he had switched sides and intentionally began to give his former kin and allies bad advice. He also went to great lengths to instigate quarrels between the various tribes until, thoroughly distrusting each other, they disbanded, lifted the siege from the Muslims, and saved Islam from destruction in an embryonic period.[15] Most recently, 9/11 accomplices, such as Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, rationalized their conspiratorial role in their defendant response by evoking their prophet's assertion that "war is deceit."

A more compelling expression of the legitimacy of deceiving infidels is the following anecdote. A poet, Ka'b ibn Ashraf, offended Muhammad, prompting the latter to exclaim, "Who will kill this man who has hurt God and his prophet?" A young Muslim named Muhammad ibn Maslama volunteered on condition that in order to get close enough to Ka'b to assassinate him, he be allowed to lie to the poet. Muhammad agreed. Ibn Maslama traveled to Ka'b and began to denigrate Islam and Muhammad. He carried on in this way till his disaffection became so convincing that Ka'b took him into his confidence. Soon thereafter, Ibn Maslama appeared with another Muslim and, while Ka'b's guard was down, killed him.[16]

Muhammad said other things that cast deception in a positive light, such as "God has commanded me to equivocate among the people just as he has commanded me to establish [religious] obligations"; and "I have been sent with obfuscation"; and "whoever lives his life in dissimulation dies a martyr."[17]

In short, the earliest historical records of Islam clearly attest to the prevalence of taqiyya as a form of Islamic warfare. Furthermore, early Muslims are often depicted as lying their way out of binds—usually by denying or insulting Islam or Muhammad—often to the approval of the latter, his only criterion being that their intentions (niya) be pure.[18] During wars with Christians, whenever the latter were in authority, the practice of taqiyya became even more integral. Mukaram states, "Taqiyya was used as a way to fend off danger from the Muslims, especially in critical times and when their borders were exposed to wars with the Byzantines and, afterwards, to the raids [crusades] of the Franks and others."[19]
Taqiyya in Qur'anic Revelation

The Qur'an itself is further testimony to taqiyya. Since God is believed to be the revealer of these verses, he is by default seen as the ultimate perpetrator of deceit—which is not surprising since he is described in the Qur'an as the best makar, that is, the best deceiver or schemer (e.g., 3:54, 8:30, 10:21).

While other scriptures contain contradictions, the Qur'an is the only holy book whose commentators have evolved a doctrine to account for the very visible shifts which occur from one injunction to another. No careful reader will remain unaware of the many contradictory verses in the Qur'an, most specifically the way in which peaceful and tolerant verses lie almost side by side with violent and intolerant ones. The ulema were initially baffled as to which verses to codify into the Shari'a worldview—the one that states there is no coercion in religion (2:256), or the ones that command believers to fight all non-Muslims till they either convert, or at least submit, to Islam (8:39, 9:5, 9:29). To get out of this quandary, the commentators developed the doctrine of abrogation, which essentially maintains that verses revealed later in Muhammad's career take precedence over earlier ones whenever there is a discrepancy. In order to document which verses abrogated which, a religious science devoted to the chronology of the Qur'an's verses evolved (known as an-Nasikh wa'l Mansukh, the abrogater and the abrogated).

But why the contradiction in the first place? The standard view is that in the early years of Islam, since Muhammad and his community were far outnumbered by their infidel competitors while living next to them in Mecca, a message of peace and coexistence was in order. However, after the Muslims migrated to Medina in 622 and grew in military strength, verses inciting them to go on the offensive were slowly "revealed"—in principle, sent down from God—always commensurate with Islam's growing capabilities. In juridical texts, these are categorized in stages: passivity vis-á-vis aggression; permission to fight back against aggressors; commands to fight aggressors; commands to fight all non-Muslims, whether the latter begin aggressions or not.[20] Growing Muslim might is the only variable that explains this progressive change in policy.

Other scholars put a gloss on this by arguing that over a twenty-two year period, the Qur'an was revealed piecemeal, from passive and spiritual verses to legal prescriptions and injunctions to spread the faith through jihad and conquest, simply to acclimate early Muslim converts to the duties of Islam, lest they be discouraged at the outset by the dramatic obligations that would appear in later verses.[21] Verses revealed towards the end of Muhammad's career—such as, "Warfare is prescribed for you though you hate it"[22]—would have been out of place when warfare was actually out of the question.

However interpreted, the standard view on Qur'anic abrogation concerning war and peace verses is that when Muslims are weak and in a minority position, they should preach and behave according to the ethos of the Meccan verses (peace and tolerance); when strong, however, they should go on the offensive on the basis of what is commanded in the Medinan verses (war and conquest). The vicissitudes of Islamic history are a testimony to this dichotomy, best captured by the popular Muslim notion, based on a hadith, that, if possible, jihad should be performed by the hand (force), if not, then by the tongue (through preaching); and, if that is not possible, then with the heart or one's intentions.[23]
War Is Eternal

That Islam legitimizes deceit during war is, of course, not all that astonishing; after all, as the Elizabethan writer John Lyly put it, "All's fair in love and war."[24] Other non-Muslim philosophers and strategists—such as Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, and Thomas Hobbes—justified deceit in warfare. Deception of the enemy during war is only common sense. The crucial difference in Islam, however, is that war against the infidel is a perpetual affair—until, in the words of the Qur'an, "all chaos ceases, and all religion belongs to God."[25] In his entry on jihad from the Encyclopaedia of Islam, Emile Tyan states: "The duty of the jihad exists as long as the universal domination of Islam has not been attained. Peace with non-Muslim nations is, therefore, a provisional state of affairs only; the chance of circumstances alone can justify it temporarily."[26]

Moreover, going back to the doctrine of abrogation, Muslim scholars such as Ibn Salama (d. 1020) agree that Qur'an 9:5, known as ayat as-sayf or the sword verse, has abrogated some 124 of the more peaceful Meccan verses, including "every other verse in the Qur'an, which commands or implies anything less than a total offensive against the nonbelievers."[27] In fact, all four schools of Sunni jurisprudence agree that "jihad is when Muslims wage war on infidels, after having called on them to embrace Islam or at least pay tribute [jizya] and live in submission, and the infidels refuse."[28]

Obligatory jihad is best expressed by Islam's dichotomized worldview that pits the realm of Islam against the realm of war. The first, dar al-Islam, is the "realm of submission," the world where Shari'a governs; the second, dar al-Harb (the realm of war), is the non-Islamic world. A struggle continues until the realm of Islam subsumes the non-Islamic world—a perpetual affair that continues to the present day. The renowned Muslim historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406) clearly articulates this division:

In the Muslim community, jihad is a religious duty because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the jihad was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense. But Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.[29]

Finally and all evidence aside, lest it still appear unreasonable for a faith with over one billion adherents to obligate unprovoked warfare in its name, it is worth noting that the expansionist jihad is seen as an altruistic endeavor, not unlike the nineteenth century ideology of "the white man's burden." The logic is that the world, whether under democracy, socialism, communism, or any other system of governance, is inevitably living in bondage—a great sin, since the good of all humanity is found in living in accordance to God's law. In this context, Muslim deception can be viewed as a slightly less than noble means to a glorious end—Islamic hegemony under Shari'a rule, which is seen as good for both Muslims and non-Muslims.

This view has an ancient pedigree: Soon after the death of Muhammad (634), as the jihad fighters burst out of the Arabian peninsula, a soon-to-be conquered Persian commander asked the invading Muslims what they wanted. They memorably replied as follows:

God has sent us and brought us here so that we may free those who desire from servitude to earthly rulers and make them servants of God, that we may change their poverty into wealth and free them from the tyranny and chaos of [false] religions an.........

Additional note--look up the definition of the word--- ban --it does not say torture,murder or genocide..-Tyr

[revelarts]

http://i.imgur.com/nmO4zjW.jpg
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[Gunny]

http://i.imgur.com/nmO4zjW.jpg
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:yourpoint:

Oh. This particular President of the US knew how to conduct himself in a responsible manner? Who? Who have thought THAT? Definitely not his successor.

[revelarts]

:yourpoint:

Oh. This particular President of the US knew how to conduct himself in a responsible manner? Who? Who have thought THAT? Definitely not his successor.

the question here is, what was Bush's point?
not what's MY point.

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[revelarts]

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-terrorists-are-traitors-to-their-own-faith-trying-in-effect-to-hijack-islam-itself-george-w-bush-57-91-24.jpg

G.W's opinion.
not mine exactly.

[pete311]

There are no great religions. It's all power play, control, scared people bullshit.

[Gunny]

the question here is, what was Bush's point?
not what's MY point.

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Well, let's see ... no context to a statement made a decade or so ago. As a standalone comment it appears to be a perfectly reasonable statement made by a politician to not alienate anyone nor give them fodder for their spin cannon. That's kind of how politicians word things. Appears to be something one would say when defending himself against an accusation and he feeling the need to address it.