You're less free on an American flight than on the streets of Havana

[tailfins]

Another case of airline heavy-handedness:

Frontier Airlines kicks father and daughter off flight for 'disrespectful remarks'
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/08/18/frontier-airlines-kicks-father-and-daughter-off-flight-for-disrespectful-remarks.html

[Abbey Marie]

IF they said the things the article claims, I agree with the flight attendants.

[tailfins]

I try to avoid flying because of among other things a pattern of this kind of thing. I just find it weird that I have to watch myself more closely while on a flight to Cuba than when I'm in Cuba. If you think about it, there's not much to learn on a flight any way, so why bother talking to people? You can always file complaints and sue later.


Here is a local news story with more details:

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/video-shows-father-daughter-kicked-off-flight


The passenger who recorded the video said she has never met the Millers and they are strangers to her. She said she did not hear them say anything offensive and that the flight attendant was eavesdropping into their private conversation. She also said the clapping in the video was prompted by other passengers supporting what Eric Miller was heard saying to the flight crew while being escorted off, showing support for the family.

[revelarts]

If everyone would just keep their mouths shut and obey authority without question or complaint, and be just be grateful for what the authorities and corporations provide... no matter any ancillary extreme inconveniences, harm or death... then there wouldn't be ANY problems!!!
And we'd all be "safe".

[tailfins]

If everyone would just keep their mouths shut and obey authority without question or complaint, and be just be grateful for what the authorities and corporations provide... no matter any ancillary extreme inconveniences, harm or death... then there wouldn't be ANY problems!!!
And we'd all be "safe".

While I enjoy your sarcasm, you also reveal a certain truth. A high degree of safety is achievable if one is willing to do without freedom. It requires intense surveillance and a highly restrictive society with severe prohibition of risk taking.

[revelarts]

While I enjoy your sarcasm, you also reveal a certain truth. A high degree of safety is achievable if one is willing to do without freedom. It requires intense surveillance and a highly restrictive society with severe prohibition of risk taking.

The thing is that kind of dream safe society is false as well.

Prisons aren't safe.
and in an Oppressive surveillance society the safety is illusory.
the crimes are pushed further underground and the "watchmen" become the unaccountable criminals.

[hjmick]

And? What's your point? You fly, you're in their house.


If I so choose, you're less free in my house than you are on the streets of Havana. My house, my rules.


Anyone who doesn't understand that concept, well, drive. And get a fucking clue.

[Black Diamond]

And? What's your point? You fly, you're in their house.


If I so choose, you're less free in my house than you are on the streets of Havana. My house, my rules.


Anyone who doesn't understand that concept, well, drive. And get a fucking clue.
I'm sure freedom of speech is limited in your household. For example, saying "Jimmy Buffett sucks" would not be tolerated.

[Abbey Marie]

And? What's your point? You fly, you're in their house.


If I so choose, you're less free in my house than you are on the streets of Havana. My house, my rules.


Anyone who doesn't understand that concept, well, drive. And get a fucking clue.

:clap:

[hjmick]

I'm sure freedom of speech is limited in your household. For example, saying "Jimmy Buffett sucks" would not be tolerated.


What makes you think I would let anyone into my house who didn't like Jimmy Buffett? I choose my friends very carefully. There is a long drawn out investigative process...

Dogs and Jimmy. Don't like 'em? Pound sand. Hell, we don't even have to agree about politics, but dogs and Jimmy are deal breakers..

[NightTrain]

Strangely enough, no one has ever insulted me while I'm transporting them in my jet boat.

[hjmick]

strangely enough, no one has ever insulted me while i'm transporting them in my jet boat.


EXACTLY!


Your boat, your rules!

[Kathianne]

EXACTLY!


Your boat, your rules!

Yep, somehow I've managed to fly all my life, without any altercations with crew or fellow flyers. Then again, I tend to do what asked when reasonable. I do understand the plane was delayed, do these folks think it was just them? Everyone, including the crew were taking off late.

[revelarts]

So no one here has ever complained about poor, rude or sub-standard service from anyone, ever?

I'm a pretty decent, accommodating and forgiving customer myself,
but i have to admit that on occasion I've felt compelled say something to service/product providers and have at times muttered in disbelief at some situations.
Beleive it or not I've even shouted at a cop that seemed to be going beyond his authority.
But I can count on both hands the numbers of times I've made complaints during my life like that.

But hey, maybe I was Completely in the WRONG for DARING to complain... It's their house ... everyone should put up with ANYTHING and EVERYTHING people dish out in their house right?

[Kathianne]

So no one here has ever complained about poor, rude or sub-standard service from anyone, ever?

I'm a pretty decent, accommodating and forgiving customer myself,
but i have to admit that on occasion I've felt compelled say something to service/product providers and have at times muttered in disbelief at some situations.
Beleive it or not I've even shouted at a cop that seemed to be going beyond his authority.
But I can count on both hands the numbers of times I've made complaints during my life like that.

But hey, maybe I was Completely in the WRONG for DARING to complain... It's their house ... everyone should put up with ANYTHING and EVERYTHING people dish out in their house right?

I don't know what I'd do if the police were my problem, been lucky that way.

If I had an issue with a business, whether an airline or any business where I felt the employees were rude or whatever, I'd make the complaint to the company.

Now if an flight is delayed because of weather or maintenance, I definitely want to wait until it's safe to fly.

[Black Diamond]

So no one here has ever complained about poor, rude or sub-standard service from anyone, ever?

I'm a pretty decent, accommodating and forgiving customer myself,
but i have to admit that on occasion I've felt compelled say something to service/product providers and have at times muttered in disbelief at some situations.
Beleive it or not I've even shouted at a cop that seemed to be going beyond his authority.
But I can count on both hands the numbers of times I've made complaints during my life like that.

But hey, maybe I was Completely in the WRONG for DARING to complain... It's their house ... everyone should put up with ANYTHING and EVERYTHING people dish out in their house right?
http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10800&stc=1

[hjmick]

So no one here has ever complained about poor, rude or sub-standard service from anyone, ever?

I'm a pretty decent, accommodating and forgiving customer myself,
but i have to admit that on occasion I've felt compelled say something to service/product providers and have at times muttered in disbelief at some situations.
Beleive it or not I've even shouted at a cop that seemed to be going beyond his authority.
But I can count on both hands the numbers of times I've made complaints during my life like that.

But hey, maybe I was Completely in the WRONG for DARING to complain... It's their house ... everyone should put up with ANYTHING and EVERYTHING people dish out in their house right?


The point is...


When it comes to private business, private property, many governmental agencies (i.e. courtrooms), and other assorted situations, your freedoms extend only so frr as the proprietor or those administering access are willing to allow. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Sure, you can complain and make derogatory statements, but you shouldn't be surprised or outraged or compare the business or institution to Cuba if or when they ask you to leave.

That's just stupid.

[revelarts]

so all complaints on planes are verboten because... 9/11.

can you site a law or is that just the new FEAR culture we have so the terrorist don't "win"?

[revelarts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WRxEY8o3kc

[Black Diamond]

so all complaint on planes are verboten because... 9/11.

E

Exactly. Keep your fucking mouth shut.

[jimnyc]

If everyone would just keep their mouths shut and obey authority without question or complaint, and be just be grateful for what the authorities and corporations provide... no matter any ancillary extreme inconveniences, harm or death... then there wouldn't be ANY problems!!!
And we'd all be "safe".

Well, this wasn't the authorities, but rather some flight attendants that went to the captain, after they supposedly, repeatedly, made offensive comments. Being they knew they were going onto private property and in tight quarters, they should have acted/spoken reasonably. And by reasonably, that means not offending those in charge of the airplane.

One is free to choose from quite a large number of airlines, and all those airlines get to decide what behavior is acceptable on their aircraft.

I highly doubt they were singled out for literally no reason. Them making disparaging remarks repeatedly sounds a hell of a lot more believable. Either way, their rules. They'll likely have been booked on another flight or have their flight refunded and they can choose to fly with another airline.

[Black Diamond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WRxEY8o3kc
Nazis all of us. Especially trump voters.

[jimnyc]

so all complaints on planes are verboten because... 9/11.

can you site a law or is that just the new FEAR culture we have so the terrorist don't "win"?

Unless THEY, as in the airline, are doing something ILLEGAL, then their decisions on their airplanes are legal. No law needs to be cited to show that.

[Black Diamond]

Well, this wasn't the authorities, but rather some flight attendants that went to the captain, after they supposedly, repeatedly, made offensive comments. Being they knew they were going onto private property and in tight quarters, they should have acted/spoken reasonably. And by reasonably, that means not offending those in charge of the airplane.

One is free to choose from quite a large number of airlines, and all those airlines get to decide what behavior is acceptable on their aircraft.

I highly doubt they were singled out for literally no reason. Them making disparaging remarks repeatedly sounds a hell of a lot more believable. Either way, their rules. They'll likely have been booked on another flight or have their flight refunded and they can choose to fly with another airline.
What a concept.

[jimnyc]

Nazis all of us. Especially trump voters.

I was a deplorable first. Wait, an admitted dirtbag first, then a deplorable. Then an alt-right fascist. Then a racist. Then a racist fascist. And now nazi.

Sure is a lot of labeling!

[Black Diamond]

I was a deplorable first. Wait, an admitted dirtbag first, then a deplorable. Then an alt-right fascist. Then a racist. Then a racist fascist. And now nazi.

Sure is a lot of labeling!
Why did it switch from fascist to nazi? Are people prejudiced against Italians?

[jimnyc]

Why did it switch from fascist to nazi? Are people prejudiced against Italians?

I think because that's what was on msnbc that day?

Of course people are prejudiced against the italians! I'm married to one of them. They can be an evil species! :thumb:

[Abbey Marie]

So no one here has ever complained about poor, rude or sub-standard service from anyone, ever?

I'm a pretty decent, accommodating and forgiving customer myself,
but i have to admit that on occasion I've felt compelled say something to service/product providers and have at times muttered in disbelief at some situations.
Beleive it or not I've even shouted at a cop that seemed to be going beyond his authority.
But I can count on both hands the numbers of times I've made complaints during my life like that.

But hey, maybe I was Completely in the WRONG for DARING to complain... It's their house ... everyone should put up with ANYTHING and EVERYTHING people dish out in their house right?


So I note that you completely believe the other passenger's version of the story, and completely disbelieve the airline's version.

Rev, I am completely not surprised.

[tailfins]

Unless THEY, as in the airline, are doing something ILLEGAL, then their decisions on their airplanes are legal. No law needs to be cited to show that.

That may be and I act accordingly. All that I'm saying is that Mr. Castro is a better host than US based airlines. Let us not forget that I'm handing over my hard-earned money. Being able to be plausibly considered worse than the Castro brothers is not something to be proud of.

[jimnyc]

That may be and I act accordingly. All that I'm saying is that Mr. Castro is a better host than US based airlines. Let us not forget that I'm handing over my hard-earned money. Being able to be plausibly considered worse than the Castro brothers is not something to be proud of.

Do you think passengers should be allowed to repeatedly curse or similar at the flight attendants? Do you think the attendants should have to put up with any abuse from customers? Simply paying for a ticket doesn't suddenly give anyone any rights to act like rude or harassing idiots.

[Abbey Marie]

That may be and I act accordingly. All that I'm saying is that Mr. Castro is a better host than US based airlines. Let us not forget that I'm handing over my hard-earned money. Being able to be plausibly considered worse than the Castro brothers is not something to be proud of.

Unless the airline imprisoned these folks for misbehaving, I see no comparison whatsoever.

Are you a fan of all things Central and Latin American, or specifically Communists?

[tailfins]

Do you think passengers should be allowed to repeatedly curse or similar at the flight attendants? Do you think the attendants should have to put up with any abuse from customers? Simply paying for a ticket doesn't suddenly give anyone any rights to act like rude or harassing idiots.

There's a pattern. Basic what's expected is to be in fear from the time you enter the airport until you leave the destination airport. Airline employees are to be treated as masters will full power over passengers; I get it.

[tailfins]

Unless the airline imprisoned these folks for misbehaving, I see no comparison whatsoever.

Are you a fan of all things Central and Latin American, or specifically Communists?

Seeing Communists is my version of visiting a haunted house given that I abstain from anything occult related. When someone compares unfavorably to a Communist monster, that's not good.

[michiganFats]

I haven't read any stories about this where any one of the passengers support the airline's version of events. Delays happen, the airlines use a very long disclaimer, I understand all of that but if an airline has been paid to perform a service and can't reasonably do so then they need to do more than just keep people waiting for 6 hours or longer.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

My son and new daughter in law recently went to Jamaica for a honeymoon. Going down went pretty smooth, but coming back was a different story. When they hit Chicago they were told there was a screw up in their itinerary and they were going to either have to spend the next 24 hours in Chicago waiting for a flight back to LaCrosse, WI, where they live and flew out of, or take a red eye to Madison and have to rent a car to drive home, 120 miles, worn out, and late at night.

I'll tell ya, I'd have been livid, but I wouldn't have taken it out on the people that I was dealing with because one, it's not their fault, and two, they really can't do anything about it. If you need to vent, you need to vent to the right people, the ones that screwed up your flight.

[tailfins]

My son and new daughter in law recently went to Jamaica for a honeymoon. Going down went pretty smooth, but coming back was a different story. When they hit Chicago they were told there was a screw up in their itinerary and they were going to either have to spend the next 24 hours in Chicago waiting for a flight back to LaCrosse, WI, where they live and flew out of, or take a red eye to Madison and have to rent a car to drive home, 120 miles, worn out, and late at night.

I'll tell ya, I'd have been livid, but I wouldn't have taken it out on the people that I was dealing with because one, it's not their fault, and two, they really can't do anything about it. If you need to vent, you need to vent to the right people, the ones that screwed up your flight.

Venting isn't productive. Plotting and planning is a great substitute. Focusing on gathering evidence and visualizing how good it will feel to get that pound of flesh provides more satisfaction.

[jimnyc]

There's a pattern. Basic what's expected is to be in fear from the time you enter the airport until you leave the destination airport. Airline employees are to be treated as masters will full power over passengers; I get it.

I don't believe that. I've flown a fair amount and never had trouble, but then again I have always been mostly pleasant with the folks that have to be on the same sardine can as I do. :)

Yes, they do have the power to get you tossed. But I don't think I've seen anyone get tossed for literally no reason. There's usually reasoning and something that brought it to that level.

Airplanes and flights suck. Too many people and always cramped, too many delays & just generally not great experiences. Folks tend to get their angers going. The flight attendants are not why there are delays. They are there to help folks get in and out, to help with drinks & top help keep things in the cabins orderly until the aircraft can land safely. They shouldn't have to deal with people harassing them, yelling, cursing, non-stop complaining or whatever - that is not their jobs. And when folks get like that, it's difficult for the one or 2 on board to now properly attend to the entire airplane.

[revelarts]

real soup NAZI,
and people just TAKE IT... because AMERICA"s so Great.. I mean the SOUP is so great.
people should just STFU!! and be grateful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXgI7XsY0WQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXgI7XsY0WQ)

[Black Diamond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXgI7XsY0WQ
You went for the strawman so i accommodated.

[jimnyc]

real soup NAZI,
and people just TAKE IT... because AMERICA"s so Great.. I mean the SOUP is so great.
people should just STFU!! and be grateful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXgI7XsY0WQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXgI7XsY0WQ)

Or simply not harass or be rude with folks you don't know and/or who did nothing to you. That's how I roll when flying and I never had a peep of a problem with a single flight attendant.

Folks are awfully quick to jump on "authorities" or the attendants, and I'm sure there are times that they don't act accordingly.

But being removed from an aircraft - almost every single one of them is due to an unruly passenger.

This has NOTHING to do with "just stfu and be grateful" and no one has stated as much. YOU like to exaggerate all the time and make things sound worse, because you hate any type of authority and somehow they're always wrong.

But nothing about the passengers. :rolleyes:

[revelarts]

...This has NOTHING to do with "just stfu and be grateful" and no one has stated as much. YOU like to exaggerate all the time and make things sound worse, because you hate any type of authority and somehow they're always wrong.

Yep, somehow I've managed to fly all my life, without any altercations with crew or fellow flyers. Then again, I tend to do what asked when reasonable. I do understand the plane was delayed, do these folks think it was just them? Everyone, including the crew were taking off late.

And? What's your point? You fly, you're in their house.
If I so choose, you're less free in my house than you are on the streets of Havana. My house, my rules
Anyone who doesn't understand that concept, well, drive. And get a fucking clue.

Exactly. Keep your fucking mouth shut.

I guess i did add the "be grateful" part.
but im not exaggerating, that sentiment is repeated through out the board by various people often when they don't like what people are complaining about.
as in sitting down for the anthem? SHOCK they are rich because America implying they should be gratful.
It's not an exaggeration at all... it's an APPLICATION of the general sentiment.
that's something that we have never been able to get togther on meaning wise.

with others you understand it, but when i do it, you want to call me out as lying or exaggerating.
we disagree.

But " Keep your fucking mouth shut." as hymick said IS basically the same as STFU isn't Jim?
or am i exaggerating. sheesh.


As far as my HATE of any authority and SOMEHOW saying they are always wrong.
1st If I ever said that YOU ALWAYS did XYZ, I think you'd be extremely upset.
If I said you HATE any legit group, you'd be upset and say i was lying.

please you know me better than that.
But, no matter what positive I post about various authorities folks seem to assume the worse.
whatever, no problem people have said worse about me here as well.


But concerning THIS situation
From the news reports we read

Whitney’s post says her and her father were privately discussing the “awful travel experience and customer service” of the airline, which prompted them to be removed from the flight.

The passenger who recorded the video said she has never met the Millers and they are strangers to her. She said she did not hear them say anything offensive and that the flight attendant was eavesdropping into their private conversation. She also said the clapping in the video was prompted by other passengers supporting what Eric Miller was heard saying to the flight crew while being escorted off, showing support for the family.

SO it's not just the Millers word against the flight crew it's the eyewitness passengers as well.
but maybe all the passengers on the flight "hate any type of authority and somehow they're always wrong."
Or MAYBE that WAS ME on the plane recordeing and leading the clapping against authority.

Jim why is this aspect of the story ignored and you and others here assume the Airline to be in the right? Are you being objective?
Is it that even if the airline is wrong they are right because it's their plane and they can do whatevr the F they want?
Look it seems to me the there is GOOD REASON believe the Millers OVER the airlines.
it's not just "HATE of any Authority."

So Maybe you believe the airline over the eyewitnesses and other clapping passengers because you have a LOVE for ALL authority no matter what, and HATE EVERYONE that dares question authority?
hmm?
is that fair to say Jim?

[Black Diamond]

Rev see my above post

[Black Diamond]

Rev see my above post
Also it was the ubiquitous you. And it is their house. Their rules. Just try to have some understanding of the stress they are under because of 911

[michiganFats]

Also it was the ubiquitous you. And it is their house. Their rules. Just try to have some understanding of the stress they are under because of 911

It's not their house, they're running a business.

[Black Diamond]

It's not their house, they're running a business.
I say it's both.