Transcending Politics, Finding Civility?

[Kathianne]

Came across the following, wouldn't classify immediately as 'political,' but the second reading sort of hit home, today everything is political-we are expected to pick a tribe.

For a few years after 9/11, tribalism was a sort of mantra used to describe what was happening in the WOT. East/West; war/peace; weak/strong. It wasn't all negative and there were areas that could be discussed/argued.

Not so much today.

Many things stand out to me within this piece, I'll highlight a few. Read it if you like:

https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned-upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5

This is actually the conclusion, but it hit home for me. I find myself mostly trying to understand the opinions of people I generally respect, but sometimes become frustrated/depressed and just blow, often resorting to snark/sarcasm:


...He said something like this: When I look to the future, I’m a pessimist. But when I look the past, I’m an optimist. What did he mean by that? He meant that right now, the future looks pretty bleak. But if we look to the past, we see times like the 1930s, when things must have looked a lot bleaker. Unemployment reached 25% in the United States and elsewhere. Fascism was on the rise around the world. And yet, the world recovered from those times and while things got worse, much worse before they got better, the resulting path was unimaginably more positive than could have been imagined at the time.

So maybe I am overreacting to the state of things today. But it doesn’t matter.





The introduction, those who know me will realize why I read it. More than once.


The current state of the country and the current state of political and intellectual conversation depresses me in a way that it never has before. You have to understand — I’m never happy with the state of the country — that’s the inevitable fate of holding an ideological position that rarely gets any traction — I’m a classical liberal who’d like government to be dramatically smaller than it is now.

But the world today feels different. Everything feels angrier. I think of Yeats’s masterpiece, The Second Coming:



Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity


Maybe it’s paranoia but it’s been a long time since I felt the thinness of the veneer of civilization and our vulnerability to a sequence of events that might threaten not just the policy positions I might favor but the very existence of the American experiment.

...

I find myself often acting near schizophrenic, here and on other of my 'more right' places to visit I often am 'anti-Trump,' while on social media where the liberal dominate, not so much. I suppose truth will out, I'm not extreme when it comes to politics, as Gunny has often accused me of being, 'I'm quite idealistic and principled regarding my stances.' His argument being that being so is foolish.

Again the paradox of feeling always at odds with wherever I find myself in discussing politics today.

I do know one thing, my ideas regarding politics and the attendant related topics haven't changed, others have.


...

It feels as if we’re in a very dangerous moment. Not because I think that Donald Trump is going to declare himself emperor or that there are going to see riots in the streets until he’s impeached. I think we’re in a dangerous moment because of what we’ve learned from the response to the Trump candidacy and the Trump presidency. I feel as if a giant flat rock has been lifted up and what is suddenly made visible crawling around underneath has lots of legs and plenty of venom.


I’m not naive. I know there’s a lot of hatred in the human heart. It’s nothing new. But what appears to be new at least in America in my experience and I’m 62 years old, is a willingness to vocalize that hatred and to act on it. The only parallel in my lifetime is the 1960s. There are some obvious parallels, but once the Vietnam war ended, things settled down. I’m not sure the divisions and lack of respect we’re seeing now is going to fade away. Certainly not while Trump is president.

...

The following too resonates with me. Again, those who've known me for years, know I've stopped discussing politics from time-to-time, first because I found myself not being nice to people I genuinely like; later because it became obvious that doing so was not changing anyone's thinking, certainly not my own:


...

A part of me wants to go off to the 18th century and think some more about Adam Smith. But another part of me thinks that standing idly by is the wrong thing to do. It feels as if we are at crucial juncture. But what action are we to take, those of us who are alarmed at the state of the country? It’s not the heat of the political kitchen that is hard to take, it’s the hatred and anger and intolerance that is spilling out of the kitchen and out into the dining room and into the streets.


So running away, while appealing, is the wrong thing to do. But what is the right thing to do?

...


I'm unsure whether or not I agree with the following, but it's an explanation of sorts. The second paragraph rings true, but that's always been the case. Our opinions are formed by those we associate with and what we choose to read and not:


...

The underlying problem is very old. Most of us know very little. The world is a complex place and it’s hard to know what is going on. So we grope around in the dark trying to make sense of what is happening and what explains what we observe. We manage to convince ourselves that we are seeking the truth and we have found it. Trump is evil or Hillary is evil. Black people are the victims of a conspiracy by white people to oppress them or white people are being marginalized as their majority status dwindles. The country is on the wrong track. (Everyone believes this one). And subtlety is not our strong suit as human beings. We like simple stories without too much nuance.


So we manage to convince ourselves that the evidence speaks so loudly, so emphatically, that we have no choice but to declare our allegiance to a particular tribe as a result of that evidence. The red tribe. Or the blue one. Or the white one. Or the black one. It rarely crosses our minds to notice that causation is probably going the opposite direction — the tribe we are in determines the evidence we notice and accept.

...


Anyways, I don't have a lot to add, no great insights. The piece just appealed to me, maybe because it sort of clarifies the anomie I've found myself immersed in for over two years. :dunno:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Came across the following, wouldn't classify immediately as 'political,' but the second reading sort of hit home, today everything is political-we are expected to pick a tribe.

For a few years after 9/11, tribalism was a sort of mantra used to describe what was happening in the WOT. East/West; war/peace; weak/strong. It wasn't all negative and there were areas that could be discussed/argued.

Not so much today.

Many things stand out to me within this piece, I'll highlight a few. Read it if you like:

https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned-upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5

This is actually the conclusion, but it hit home for me. I find myself mostly trying to understand the opinions of people I generally respect, but sometimes become frustrated/depressed and just blow, often resorting to snark/sarcasm:



The introduction, those who know me will realize why I read it. More than once.



I find myself often acting near schizophrenic, here and on other of my 'more right' places to visit I often am 'anti-Trump,' while on social media where the liberal dominate, not so much. I suppose truth will out, I'm not extreme when it comes to politics, as Gunny has often accused me of being, 'I'm quite idealistic and principled regarding my stances.' His argument being that being so is foolish.

Again the paradox of feeling always at odds with wherever I find myself in discussing politics today.

I do know one thing, my ideas regarding politics and the attendant related topics haven't changed, others have.



The following too resonates with me. Again, those who've known me for years, know I've stopped discussing politics from time-to-time, first because I found myself not being nice to people I genuinely like; later because it became obvious that doing so was not changing anyone's thinking, certainly not my own:



I'm unsure whether or not I agree with the following, but it's an explanation of sorts. The second paragraph rings true, but that's always been the case. Our opinions are formed by those we associate with and what we choose to read and not:



Anyways, I don't have a lot to add, no great insights. The piece just appealed to me, maybe because it sort of clarifies the anomie I've found myself immersed in for over two years. :dunno:

My view on this recent massive rise in outright hatred and venom spewed is it is a normal reaction when one side goes into full on warfare that the opposing side does not just sit there and take it.
Speaking for myself, I never just sit there and take it. I always react to defend me and mine.
Those that NOW have so, went over the top, majority of whom, are not Republicans/Conservatives but instead are the Hillary supporters/socialists that did not get to install another socialist dictator over us AS THEY DID WITH 8 DEVASTATING YEARS OF THE OBAMA CATASTROPHE., IMHO.
CRYING BABIES WANTING MORE CANDY, APTLY DESCRIBES IT,IMHO.
Trump is not to blame for their actions of violence, extreme hatred and venom being spewed--he is just the most convenient target, IMHO.

The true target is us, we that believe in the Constitution, Rule of Law, God/Christian Morality and Decency..
Those things that the opposing side so dearly loathe--to the point of insane hatred.

That they are NOW getting a far more severe/stronger OPPOSING REACTION IS MERELY HUMAN NATURE.

One called for after many decades of the Silent Majority, remaining silent to the point of being truly cowardly, IMHO.

WHICH AFTER SO MANY DECADES OF SILENCE, NOW SUDDENLY, LOOKS TO BE A VERY FEARFUL REACTION...

WHICH MAY YET END UP BEING THE CASE -IF THE SOCIALIST/DEM SIDE IS NOT PROPERLY DEALT WITH BEFORE IT RAMPS UP EVEN FURTHER ITS VIOLENT REACTION TO LOSING THE ELECTION, IMHO. -Tyr

[Kathianne]

I understand your point, problem for me is that I have serious problems with the chosen sides, for many different reasons.

To argue has proven pointless, indeed harmful only to oneself.

[revelarts]

Came across the following, wouldn't classify immediately as 'political,' but the second reading sort of hit home, today everything is political-we are expected to pick a tribe.

For a few years after 9/11, tribalism was a sort of mantra used to describe what was happening in the WOT. East/West; war/peace; weak/strong. It wasn't all negative and there were areas that could be discussed/argued.
Not so much today.
Many things stand out to me within this piece, I'll highlight a few. Read it if you like:

https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned-upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5

This is actually the conclusion, but it hit home for me. I find myself mostly trying to understand the opinions of people I generally respect, but sometimes become frustrated/depressed and just blow, often resorting to snark/sarcasm:

The introduction, those who know me will realize why I read it. More than once.

I find myself often acting near schizophrenic, here and on other of my 'more right' places to visit I often am 'anti-Trump,' while on social media where the liberal dominate, not so much. I suppose truth will out, I'm not extreme when it comes to politics, as Gunny has often accused me of being, 'I'm quite idealistic and principled regarding my stances.' His argument being that being so is foolish.

Again the paradox of feeling always at odds with wherever I find myself in discussing politics today.

I do know one thing, my ideas regarding politics and the attendant related topics haven't changed, others have.

The following too resonates with me. Again, those who've known me for years, know I've stopped discussing politics from time-to-time, first because I found myself not being nice to people I genuinely like; later because it became obvious that doing so was not changing anyone's thinking, certainly not my own:

I'm unsure whether or not I agree with the following, but it's an explanation of sorts. The second paragraph rings true, but that's always been the case. Our opinions are formed by those we associate with and what we choose to read and not:

Anyways, I don't have a lot to add, no great insights. The piece just appealed to me, maybe because it sort of clarifies the anomie I've found myself immersed in for over two years. :dunno:

I hear ya.

[Kathianne]

I hear ya.

The earlier iteration of "tribes" was a type of world view. This is more of a balkanized version, it's a way to civil revolution each group thinks it will "win."

[revelarts]

Kath there's several things that ring true in the commentary you posted.
from MY POV the line:
"I think we’re in a dangerous moment because of what we’ve learned from the response to the Trump candidacy and the Trump presidency. I feel as if a giant flat rock has been lifted up and what is suddenly made visible crawling around underneath has lots of legs and plenty of venom."


To me that's the thing that's been so disheartening because frankly After 9-11 2001 I 1st got that sense. Amidst all the "unity" and patriotism I saw the willingness of both sides to set aside the constitution and morality in a cavalier and often in self-righteous way that allowed no questions. the venom of fear and fight seemed to grasp the reins. ANd The constitutional, law and order and high moral "principles" previously espoused were DROP KICKED and replaced with a "whatever it takes to keep us 'safe'" mentality. A POV that seemed to come from under the republican rock as a monster that always lived there. The Left wasn't much better and proved it once the Dems got control of the house mid-terms and afterward when Obama took office. What constitutional and 'kindness to all' principles it had went out the window as they continued all the previous programs and added more. But the republicans had another monster shimmy out from under the rock while Obama was in office. Somehow some Americas realized that many blacks still felt and experienced racism. Maybe some of the minority's complaints were/are out of proportion with reality, but the general reaction from the right was to deny them all out-right ...and worse. Then came Trump and the rest of monsters on both sides have come out. And the rational and moderates of both sides of the left and right are shocked at how crazy some of their own really are concerning various issues... even issues of the basic of human kindness and fairness.
Myself as a constitutionalist, kinda libertarian (after911) and Christian don't see much of either party... or left/right policies... or leading personalities as representing anything traditionally AMERICAN in the best sense.
It's turned into a pissing contest all around. The best ideals are NOT even on the table for discussion.
It's all about WHO GETs what from the gov't
and who we should we bomb,
who should we keep out or let in,
who we should make legal or make illegal for OUR SIDE.
It's what team or tribe or party or "gender" or religion or lack of religion or race or fad or fear do you represent... or want suppressed.
Ideals, constitution, law, principles, fairness, morals, kindness, freedom, unity and reality checks are basically OFF the TABLE. Or only used as a wedge when handy, then tossed aside if it exposes the teams dark side or challenges a personal view of the world.

the public version of the status quo on all sides has MOVED drastically over the pass several years or so.
But i've been wondering just how different, really, are the actual mindsets of many Americans now than 20+ years ago?
Was it really any better or just less open, honest and aggressive?

ANd I wonder if the commentator is really just looking for a time when people are more polite about the horrible things they believe.
Or if ...enough of us... as nation really want what WE ADVERTISE to the world we are via our former talk and national founding documents.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Kath there's several things that ring true in the commentary you posted.
from MY POV the line:
"I think we’re in a dangerous moment because of what we’ve learned from the response to the Trump candidacy and the Trump presidency. I feel as if a giant flat rock has been lifted up and what is suddenly made visible crawling around underneath has lots of legs and plenty of venom."


To me that's the thing that's been so disheartening because frankly After 9-11 2001 I 1st got that sense. Amidst all the "unity" and patriotism I saw the willingness of both sides to set aside the constitution and morality in a cavalier and often in self-righteous way that allowed no questions. the venom of fear and fight seemed to grasp the reins. ANd The constitutional, law and order and high moral "principles" previously espoused were DROP KICKED and replaced with a "whatever it takes to keep us 'safe'" mentality. A POV that seemed to come from under the republican rock as a monster that always lived there. The Left wasn't much better and proved it once the Dems got control of the house mid-terms and afterward when Obama took office. What constitutional and 'kindness to all' principles it had went out the window as they continued all the previous programs and added more. But the republicans had another monster shimmy out from under the rock while Obama was in office. Somehow some Americas realized that many blacks still felt and experienced racism. Maybe some of the minority's complaints were/are out of proportion with reality, but the general reaction from the right was to deny them all out-right ...and worse. Then came Trump and the rest of monsters on both sides have come out. And the rational and moderates of both sides of the left and right are shocked at how crazy some of their own really are concerning various issues... even issues of the basic of human kindness and fairness.
Myself as a constitutionalist, kinda libertarian (after911) and Christian don't see much of either party... or left/right policies... or leading personalities as representing anything traditionally AMERICAN in the best sense.
It's turned into a pissing contest all around. The best ideals are NOT even on the table for discussion.
It's all about WHO GETs what from the gov't
and who we should we bomb,
who should we keep out or let in,
who we should make legal or make illegal for OUR SIDE.
It's what team or tribe or party or "gender" or religion or lack of religion or race or fad or fear do you represent... or want suppressed.
Ideals, constitution, law, principles, fairness, morals, kindness, freedom, unity and reality checks are basically OFF the TABLE. Or only used as a wedge when handy, then tossed aside if it exposes the teams dark side or challenges a personal view of the world.

the public version of the status quo on all sides has MOVED drastically over the pass several years or so.
But i've been wondering just how different, really, are the actual mindsets of many Americans now than 20+ years ago?
Was it really any better or just less open, honest and aggressive?

ANd I wonder if the commentator is really just looking for a time when people are more polite about the horrible things they believe.
Or if ...enough of us... as nation really want what WE ADVERTISE to the world we are via our former talk and national founding documents.

So stated as you seem to refuse that most of that negativity and darkness was reignited, promoted and agenda driven by obama and his gang.
Rev, your blinders seem to be the darkest shade made available.
As you constantly try to give greatest leeway to the dem party--and I suspect that is the case because it caters to blacks for their votes.
Whereas majority of Republicans have been made out to be anti-black.
Which is not the case,but that lie serves well both the dems and their allies the socialists/anarchists and other enemies of this nation, IMHO-Tyr

[jimnyc]

The Left wasn't much better and proved it once the Dems got control of the house mid-terms and afterward when Obama took office.

They weren't much better, as in they were better at all. :rolleyes: That's comical. But I always kinda knew you supported the center/left more so than the right, regardless of words. The constitution was spit on and shit on while Obama was in office, and much of the time over the years you either ignored such things or remained silent, for whatever reason.

[jimnyc]

So stated as you seem to refuse that most of that negativity and darkness was reignited, promoted and agenda driven by obama and his gang.
Rev, your blinders seem to be the darkest shade made available.
As you constantly try to give greatest leeway to the dem party--and I suspect that is the case because it caters to blacks for their votes.
Whereas majority of Republicans have been made out to be anti-black.
Which is not the case,but that lie serves well both the dems and their allies the socialists/anarchists and other enemies of this nation, IMHO-Tyr

We is all racists, dontcha know? We're reviving the KKK, and since we support Trump, we are all white nationalists!!

[revelarts]

I'm not sure if my points were missed or proven by the above.


maybe a bit of both.

[revelarts]

Interesting cartoon that goes along with Kath's commentary i think


https://i.pinimg.com/564x/16/5e/4e/165e4ef76587025a052c55c38ec49068.jpg

[jimnyc]

I'm not sure if my points were missed or proven by the above.


maybe a bit of both.

Nope, not from me anyway. I call it as I see it, even if it sometimes proves myself wrong.

[Gunny]

We is all racists, dontcha know? We're reviving the KKK, and since we support Trump, we are all white nationalists!!The people that claim to want to "talk" are too old, scared, or weak to say enough arguing with the gnostic christian bishop's of the world. Their hatred and dishonesty is right out in the open for everyone to see. They don't even pretend to be sneaky anymore because they feel no one will do anything to stop them.

Comes a time you either fight for what little you have left after all the talk/appeasement or you lose it all.

[revelarts]

They weren't much better, as in they were better at all. :rolleyes: That's comical. But I always kinda knew you supported the center/left more so than the right, regardless of words. The constitution was spit on and shit on while Obama was in office, and much of the time over the years you either ignored such things or remained silent, for whatever reason.



...The Left wasn't much better and proved it once the Dems got control of the house mid-terms and afterward when Obama took office. What constitutional and 'kindness to all' principles it had went out the window as they continued all the previous programs and added more...Then came Trump and the rest of monsters on both sides have come out.
seems like I don't make the left seem any better than the right. Not sure how you come by the idea that i'm really center left.
maybe it's this new idea of what the right and left are though.

And yes the "constitution was spit on and shit on while Obama was in office". But uuhh, no, i did not ignore or remain silent about it. I guess you just ignored my post since it was more of the same that I'd been complaining about with Bush. ...or maybe you just agreed with Obama in some cases. Warentless spying on U.S. citizens, warentless searches, BS TSA, unconstitutional wars and "military actions" (Libya etc), jailing and worse, killing people including Americans without due process (Alwalaki & son plus the incessant drone strikes), Holders legal excuses for all the above, the unconstitutional lockdown/takedown of Boston after the bombing. the executive orders that MADE UP new immigration law. I could go on and on to several other unconstitutional thing Obama did that i've complained about during his term. And some done by the SCOTUS like the homosexual marriage issue.

But maybe since i didn't attack him personally or in other areas ...or since i didn't make fun of Michele... maybe you and others got the impression i had some hidden or latent support FOR Obama. I've never made fun of Barbara or Laura Bush either BTW.

Look Jim, as per my usual, I'm more issue based, not personality based. There were things I praised and agreed with Bush on. And things that I at least understood and somewhat agreed with that Obama did. Neither one were PURE evil and wrong about EVERYTHING IMO. (Trump too, if he'd stick to what i liked I could praise him more but NOPE)

If that makes me CENTER LEFT in your mind well ...OK.

the sad thing is if GW Bush had JUST done what he said he'd do during his 1st campaign run, when i voted for him, I'd be singing his praises right now. But as i mentioned in my 1st post here, after 9/11 it seems everyone's true colors came out.

[Gunny]

seems like I don't make the left seem any better than the right. Not sure how you come by the idea that i'm really center left.
maybe it's this new idea of what the right and left are though.

And yes the "constitution was spit on and shit on while Obama was in office". But uuhh, no, i did not ignore or remain silent about it. I guess you just ignored my post since it was more of the same that I'd been complaining about with Bush. ...or maybe you just agreed with Obama in some cases. Warentless spying on U.S. citizens, warentless searches, BS TSA, unconstitutional wars and "military actions" (Libya etc), jailing and worse, killing people including Americans without due process (Alwalaki & son plus the incessant drone strikes), Holders legal excuses for all the above, the unconstitutional lockdown/takedown of Boston after the bombing. the executive orders that MADE UP new immigration law. I could go on and on to several other unconstitutional thing Obama did that i've complained about during his term. And some done by the SCOTUS like the homosexual marriage issue.

But maybe since i didn't attack him personally or in other areas ...or since i didn't make fun of Michele... maybe you and others got the impression i had some hidden or latent support FOR Obama. I've never made fun of Barbara or Laura Bush either BTW.

Look Jim, as per my usual, I'm more issue based, not personality based. There were things I praised and agreed with Bush on. And things that I at least understood and somewhat agreed with that Obama did. Neither one were PURE evil and wrong about EVERYTHING IMO. (Trump too, if he'd stick to what i liked I could praise him more but NOPE)

If that makes me CENTER LEFT in your mind well ...OK.

the sad thing is if GW Bush had JUST done what he said he'd do during his 1st campaign run, when i voted for him, I'd be singing his praises right now. But as i mentioned in my 1st post here, after 9/11 it seems everyone's true colors came out.What "true colors" are those, Rev? Yellow? Seems to me after 9/11 the loudest whine in the world was from the left demanding Bush do something, and protect them. I seriously doubt Bush had 9/11 on his planning calendar (depends on which whack-job conspiracy theorist you want to listen to). He had to adjust and react. That's kind of how that works. It changed everything.

Give Jim some credit though. At least he thinks you're "something". I think you change directions with the breeze.

[Kathianne]

I've never seen Rev as anything but consistent. He never has changed, which is so very untrue for nearly everyone else here. While I've not changed in what I think is important, I've certainly changed in where I'll look for those whom I'll vote for. A few short years ago, it would take a very special non-GOP candidate to get my vote, doubt that's true anymore.

[Gunny]

I've never seen Rev as anything but consistent. He never has changed, which is so very untrue for nearly everyone else here. While I've not changed in what I think is important, I've certainly changed in where I'll look for those whom I'll vote for. A few short years ago, it would take a very special non-GOP candidate to get my vote, doubt that's true anymore.Your reasoning for choosing a candidate is nonsensical. You're so wrapped around what you think is right, you hardly take what is best for all into consideration. The one is NOT more important than the many.

I think Trump's a jackass. I'd like to take his cell from him and stick it "somewhere". HOWEVER ... was worth every penny to keep Hillary out of office and save the Supreme Court FOR GENERATIONS. Not one or two terms. Until the idiots die. Looking at my children's future, and the future of other's children trumps (no pun intended) my personal dislike for a single person. Because THAT is what is important. What is best for ALL.

[Kathianne]

Your reasoning for choosing a candidate is nonsensical. You're so wrapped around what you think is right, you hardly take what is best for all into consideration. The one is NOT more important than the many.

I think Trump's a jackass. I'd like to take his cell from him and stick it "somewhere". HOWEVER ... was worth every penny to keep Hillary out of office and save the Supreme Court FOR GENERATIONS. Not one or two terms. Until the idiots die. Looking at my children's future, and the future of other's children trumps (no pun intended) my personal dislike for a single person. Because THAT is what is important. What is best for ALL.

You don't think he's a jackass, you just say that while calling everyone who disagrees with him, thus you, names.

I hope his term ends with more good things than bad, indeed contrary to the description of 'hate filled' posts and such, including 'nonsensical' I've posted positively when there's something done I agree with.

That's not happening of late. Nope, he's going to the liberal side, which is what I feared way back when. From the stuff coming out and the widespread agreement here, including his great 'bi-partisan' outreach with Chuck and Nancy, things must be going the way you all want. Universal healthcare, amnesty, etc.

Geez, nearly forgot the great trillion dollar infrastructure deal, not including the big, beautiful wall! Oh and no more of those damn spending caps!

[revelarts]

I've never seen Rev as anything but consistent. He never has changed, which is so very untrue for nearly everyone else here. While I've not changed in what I think is important, I've certainly changed in where I'll look for those whom I'll vote for. A few short years ago, it would take a very special non-GOP candidate to get my vote, doubt that's true anymore.

wow, As bad as the Republicans have gotten, I still haven't found a Democrat i can vote for.
3rd party is only way i can vote in some cases.

[Kathianne]

wow, As bad as the Republicans have gotten, I still haven't found a Democrat i can vote for.
3rd party is only way i can vote in some cases.

I will consider any and all. The truth is that unless there was something very wrong, imo, with a GOP candidate, mostly local, I just voted GOP. In IL I knew much more about the local pols, but I'm doing my research for the next elections.

I'm looking for someone I agree with, not someone who just agrees with Trump or is 'against this or that person or party.'

[Gunny]

Interesting cartoon that goes along with Kath's commentary i think


https://i.pinimg.com/564x/16/5e/4e/165e4ef76587025a052c55c38ec49068.jpg

Don't you wish it was that simple? You left out YOUR position on the spectrum: Delusional.

[revelarts]

The earlier iteration of "tribes" was a type of world view. This is more of a balkanized version, it's a way to civil revolution each group thinks it will "win."

"Politics: A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."
Ambrose Bierce

[High_Plains_Drifter]

which is so very untrue for nearly everyone else here...
Are you sure?

[Kathianne]

Are you sure?

Pretty much, you may have changed while not here, but most of the others had been v consistent up until about 2 years ago.

[Black Diamond]

I will consider any and all. The truth is that unless there was something very wrong, imo, with a GOP candidate, mostly local, I just voted GOP. In IL I knew much more about the local pols, but I'm doing my research for the next elections.

I'm looking for someone I agree with, not someone who just agrees with Trump or is 'against this or that person or party.'
Yeah maybe John Kerry will run again in 2020.

[Black Diamond]

You don't think he's a jackass, you just say that while calling everyone who disagrees with him, thus you, names.

I hope his term ends with more good things than bad, indeed contrary to the description of 'hate filled' posts and such, including 'nonsensical' I've posted positively when there's something done I agree with.

That's not happening of late. Nope, he's going to the liberal side, which is what I feared way back when. From the stuff coming out and the widespread agreement here, including his great 'bi-partisan' outreach with Chuck and Nancy, things must be going the way you all want. Universal healthcare, amnesty, etc.

Geez, nearly forgot the great trillion dollar infrastructure deal, not including the big, beautiful wall! Oh and no more of those damn spending caps!
Gunny was anti trump until he became the nominee. Just because someone doesn't go rogue like you and McCain supporting the democrat doesn't mean he likes trump. He was for the republican and you weren't. Kerry on.

[Kathianne]

Gunny was anti trump until he became the nominee. Just because someone doesn't go rogue like you and McCain supporting the democrat doesn't mean he likes trump. He was for the republican and you weren't. Kerry on.

Gunny has totally gone for the cult of personality over any principles he has always claimed to hold dear. He, like so many, have decided that a political win is much more important than any ideas. That's their right, but let's not say that it's for any noble reasons.

Trump is 'anti-illegals.' 'Wall, deportations! Rapists, gangs! Murderers!' Ok. "They are here through no fault of their own!" Well then, "Ok! He always said that! What compassion!" "He's always been for this!" "We are too! Love the Dreamers! It was just Congress' fault. Actually it was the GOP that didn't give Obama a choice! Now, Trump will go with the smarter guys, Dreamers forever! Pass the law! Get rid of the GOP that did nothing, (other than somehow blocking what Obama 'legally' from doing what they then thought was wrong.) When members of the legislature tried to work with Dems to get immigration reform, they were sellout fuckers that needed to go. Trump does it? Hero. Cult of personality. He's not tried to work with GOP, he trusts the Schumers and Pelosis. Again, it's what his folks want-Win!

There are many that have argued for compromise as was the norm not so long ago. Many of those now so strongly labeling themselves patriotic and compassionate are the same who said that compromise was just another way of selling out and buying into the liberal agenda. All it took was this righteous man for them to follow, now I guess we watch where he leads. He leads his followers, but not his party. He's taking his cue on undercutting the party leadership in favor of the other party. My guess is no one will come through unscathed.

What comes after DACA? When it is codified with easier parameters than Obama set with his 'illegal' EO? We don't worry.

Many very smart people are fully in with Trump. They are not going to look too deep. The smartest try to give themselves some wiggle room by complaining about his tweets, but that too has it's endearing side. Most just want wins.

[Kathianne]

Gunny was anti trump until he became the nominee. Just because someone doesn't go rogue like you and McCain supporting the democrat doesn't mean he likes trump. He was for the republican and you weren't. Kerry on.

Just for the record, you really don't know me at all. Kerry? Really? LOL! If you really knew my stands over the years, you wouldn't have grabbed onto a post or two when the primaries brought out the worst of my fears.

When Trump became the nominee, I made a choice to not vote for him or Hillary. There were other races to vote that were important. My choices for President were limited so I chose, doing the least harm.

When push comes to shove from here on in I'll be voting for whichever candidate, for any office, that seems to reflect my views to the highest degree possible. Their choice of party to run under will no longer be influential in the sense of principles. The GOP doesn't have any principles and the DNC has a platform that I am in nearly all areas opposed to. If there is a leg up in affiliation for me it would be independent. While many of the ideas of the Constitution Party and Libertarian appeal to me, both have not fielded candidates that I agree with on important issues.

[Kathianne]

I also want to point out that when Trump has taken positions I agree with, I've posted on those. Same with appointments, some of which he is no longer crazy about himself.

As for DACA, the idea is not what I oppose or ever have. What I'm against in all 'immigration issues' is to address the issues related to those here, that eventually will lead to citizenship, WITHOUT FIRST addressing border security to prevent dealing with the same issues down the road. The whole 'Big, beautiful wall!' is not necessary, as evidence by the diminishing problem already occurring. Just the threat of arrests and deportations has diminished the flow. Now there has to be real attention paid to visas, enrolling children in schools, e-verify enforcement, etc.

The most likely DACA legislation to pass thus far, is far more liberal in the requirements of who will qualify. It's certainly not restricted to 'the best.' Depending upon their convictions, plenty of gangbangers will qualify.

Wins are good, good wins are what is needed. Spend the time and get it right.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

We got Trump because the party system is so corrupt. Trillions of dollars being moved to and fro by government means billions are up for grabs.
Thus government corruption is now a systematic set-up, with the controlling party getting by far the bigger slices of pie...
and add to that the outside behemoth --the Globalists-- that have tens of billions to manipulate this corrupt system and you end up with organized chaos --used to divide and conquer.
Trump won--but , but ,but -- how much did it matter when those in the Republican party, Mclame types,etc. --many bought and paid for globalists shills, team up with the dems/libs/socialists and help the globalist agenda weaken this nation..

Where the hell was all this damn heralded glorious compromise and work with the other side when traitor obama was ruling??
He and his cronies/dem party did none of that ----yet as usual when Republicans get control out comes this pie in the sky compromise/appease and help the other side crap.

Who is to blame???

Easy answer--The American citizenry that has been educated to be ignorant.....
When perverted social causes become far ,far more important than Rule of Law, Constitution and Decency-- the results will always be chaos, disunity and eventually collapse.
Exactly what happened to the most powerful and longest lasting Empire ever-- the Roman Empire.

I believe we are entering our collapse unless , by some miracle, the American population actually wakes up and turns back to voting for
the most decent and honest candidate.
And here is the sad reality in even that-- our liberal/socialist education system has so destroyed the ability of the last few generations to even be able to recognize common decency or see it as being of primary importance in governing a nation...

Hey, we dinosaurs were actually taught Civics in High school...
What ffing dem governed liberal schools teach it now????????

Teach kids to be ignorant and self-serving and eventually you will reap what you sow........
There was a reason that the socialist dems/leftists took prayer out of school, took corporal punishment out..

Stupid people tend to vote dem.. A damn fact!!!! --Tyr

[Kathianne]

We got Trump because the party system is so corrupt. Trillions of dollars being moved to and fro by government means billions are up for grabs.
Thus government corruption is now a systematic set-up, with the controlling party getting by far the bigger slices of pie...
and add to that the outside behemoth --the Globalists-- that have tens of billions to manipulate this corrupt system and you end up with organized chaos --used to divide and conquer.
Trump won--but , but ,but -- how much did it matter when those in the Republican party, Mclame types,etc. --many bought and paid for globalists shills, team up with the dems/libs/socialists and help the globalist agenda weaken this nation..

Where the hell was all this damn heralded glorious compromise and work with the other side when traitor obama was ruling??
He and his cronies/dem party did none of that ----yet as usual when Republicans get control out comes this pie in the sky compromise/appease and help the other side crap.

Who is to blame???

Easy answer--The American citizenry that has bee educated to be ignorant.....
When perverted social causes become far ,far more important than Rule of Law, Constitution and Decency-- the results will always be chaos, disunity and eventually collapse.
Exactly what happened to the most powerful and longest lasting Empire ever-- the Roman Empire.

I believe we are entering our collapse unless , by some miracle, the American population actually wakes up and turns back to voting for
the most decent and honest candidate.
And here is the sad reality in even that-- our liberal/socialist education system has so destroyed the ability of the last few generations to even be able to recognize common decency or see it as being of primary importance in governing a nation...

Hey, we dinosaurs were actually taught Civics in High school...
What ffing dem governed liberal schools teach it now????????

Teach kids to be ignorant and self-serving and eventually you will reap what you sow........
There was a reason that the socialist dems/leftists took prayer out of school, took corporal punishment out..

Stupid people tend to vote dem.. A damn fact!!!! --Tyr

We got Trump because so many like him and his persona. A large measure was Clinton. He won, I won't be surprised if he gets 2 terms.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

We got Trump because so many like him and his persona. A large measure was Clinton. He won, I won't be surprised if he gets 2 terms.

Some considered more and with high hopes that he would manage to not compromise but instead reverse much of obama's crap same way the bamster installed so much of it-- by E.O's...
THAT WAS THE BEAUTY OF THE OBAMA CORRUPTION-- Tons of far reaching Executive Orders that would be hard to undue once incorporated into the system of the government behemoth.. and protected by the left over obama appointed minions...
A cancer has to be cut out, not massaged and some pretty ointment put on....

When those in the Republican Party unified to destroy Trump after he won--I knew ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE...

LETS NOT PRETEND THOSE IN HIS PARTY ARE OPPOSING HIM ON SOME GREAT AND GRAND MORAL PRINCIPLES.

Most are shills either for the dem party/globalists or have been recently bought by certain vested interests that will profit immensely should Trump be ousted from his first term or not get a second term, IMHO.

And yes, I lay blame with Trump for not doing as he promised, for his now deciding to join with snakes lie Pelosi and Shitster.-TYR

[Kathianne]

There's not many that actually didn't vote for Trump on principles, many just skipped voting altogether.

[jimnyc]

I've never seen Rev as anything but consistent. He never has changed, which is so very untrue for nearly everyone else here. While I've not changed in what I think is important, I've certainly changed in where I'll look for those whom I'll vote for. A few short years ago, it would take a very special non-GOP candidate to get my vote, doubt that's true anymore.

I'm the same as I always was.

And even in the past when I had a candidate that I less than cared for, I didn't actively work against, as never Trumpers and some in congress have done.

[Kathianne]

I'm the same as I always was.

And even in the past when I had a candidate that I less than cared for, I didn't actively work against, as never Trumpers and some in congress have done.

I haven't worked against Trump, I don't think that's possible for an individual, nor do I think it right to work against our President, whomever it may be.

Not just going along isn't working against.

[jimnyc]

I haven't worked against Trump, I don't think that's possible for an individual, nor do I think it right to work against our President, whomever it may be.

Not just going along isn't working against.

I think the media, mostly just words, work against him, and eventually it takes it's toll. I think their goal, and hope, is that he fails.

I don't mean that about you, but rather worked against him in disagreeing with things beforehand, and finding fault with almost everything after the fact. The rock and the hard place. And you of all people know better than damned if you do and don't positions. And when hit with them, one should stick with what is best for their country and forget the background noise. But often since he has been in office, he'll be condemned for accomplishing something - for how it's accomplished.

Folks want to forget a hurricane hit Texas. Some think he should have things stuffed in with relief for that. Some think stuck in with DACA. These are things that we have all fought and railed against for years.

Funny thing is, we still have tons of democrat senators and other democrats throughout the nation, working in positions that make change in our country. But all I hear about, even from many R's, is condemnation of Trump.

There is more hatred and desire to see someone fail than anytime and any other person I've ever seen in my life.

[Kathianne]

I think the media, mostly just words, work against him, and eventually it takes it's toll. I think their goal, and hope, is that he fails.

I don't mean that about you, but rather worked against him in disagreeing with things beforehand, and finding fault with almost everything after the fact. The rock and the hard place. And you of all people know better than damned if you do and don't positions. And when hit with them, one should stick with what is best for their country and forget the background noise. But often since he has been in office, he'll be condemned for accomplishing something - for how it's accomplished.

Folks want to forget a hurricane hit Texas. Some think he should have things stuffed in with relief for that. Some think stuck in with DACA. These are things that we have all fought and railed against for years.

Funny thing is, we still have tons of democrat senators and other democrats throughout the nation, working in positions that make change in our country. But all I hear about, even from many R's, is condemnation of Trump.

There is more hatred and desire to see someone fail than anytime and any other person I've ever seen in my life.

For better or worse, he ran as an outsider and that is how he's mostly acted. So now he's joined forces perhaps with those he donated to for years and doesn't miss a chance to diss those in the party he ran on. To be surprised that he's not warmly embraced is sort of naive, imo. It doesn't matter though, he's supported by those that elected him.

[Gunny]

Tell ou what ... y'all find your nearest leftwingnut and explain to him how he's rewriting your history to suit his politics, taking away your Constitutional Rights Iin practice you have none), and all the violence that is crucial to their game is so unnecessary. I'm sure he'll say, "Oh my bad. Here you go. Have it all back.":rolleyes:

If you don't get hit with a brick or a bottle or punched in the face or shoved around, you will be shouted down and bullied into submission.

Or you can knock his ass the fuck out and take back what is yours and quit trying to bargain with Satan.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tell ou what ... y'all find your nearest leftwingnut and explain to him how he's rewriting your history to suit his politics, taking away your Constitutional Rights Iin practice you have none), and all the violence that is crucial to their game is so unnecessary. I'm sure he'll say, "Oh my bad. Here you go. Have it all back.":rolleyes:

If you don't get hit with a brick or a bottle or punched in the face or shoved around, you will be shouted down and bullied into submission.

Or you can knock his ass the fuck out and take back what is yours and quit trying to bargain with Satan.

I may have worded that a bit more gently but it is spot on, in being a correct analysis, and a valid way of looking at this current revolt of the crybabies and their use of violence, IMHO.

TRUTH IS,THOSE USING VIOLENCE NEED TO BE HUNTED DOWN, SPARING NO-EXPENSE AND TRIED IN COURT AND PUNISHED SEVERELY.

Just imagine if this had occurred when the bambastard was elected(either term)!
Hell, leftist media would have demanded firing squads be used on us!!!!
And the traitor obama would have likely obliged those craven and corrupt cowards, methinks...

Now we get, give them understanding and coddle them!!!!
These are not little children throwing FEW SMALL SNOWBALLS..... --Tyr