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High_Plains_Drifter
10-23-2017, 06:19 PM
I don't know under WHO'S DIRECTION this kind of SHIT is happening, but it's an absolute OUTRAGE. Where in the FUCK is MATTIS? Where is TRUMP? Why are they allowing this kind of TRASH to happen in the Air Force? Is this the product of obama purging all the good top brass in the military and replacing them with all of his like minded FAGGOT LOVERS? I swear... this just pisses me off... then makes me sad for my AF, and the leftist garbage it's turned into...

U.S. Air Force Punishes Decorated Colonel for Not Endorsing Gay Marriage
https://activistmommy.com/u-s-air-force-punishes-decorated-colonel-not-endorsing-gay-marriage/

NightTrain
10-23-2017, 06:43 PM
Read about this yesterday.

I don't think he needs to worry, the CinC will rectify this. You have to remember that the military has been socially engineered for 8 years and there's going to be a few in there who bought in to 0bama BS.

darin
10-24-2017, 01:16 AM
A christian would have or should have signed the document and wished the couple well in the next phase of their lives. Then the christian gets on with his life. Christ was pretty clear on love trumping judgement.


The Airman:


Even though a two-star general agreed to sign the certificate in place of Bohannon, when the retiring airman discovered that Bohannon had not signed the document himself, he filed a formal Equal Opportunity (EO) complaint, alleging that Bohannon had unlawfully discriminated against him on the basis of his sexual orientation.

is a huge asshole. He should have just accepted the certificate and gotten on with his life. And point of order - there was no discrimination on his sexual preferences. The colonel would have not-signed a certificate if it was a straight guy with a same-sex 'spouse' too.

The Commander of this whole thing should just drop it and let people move on.

NightTrain
10-24-2017, 07:37 AM
A christian would have or should have signed the document and wished the couple well in the next phase of their lives. Then the christian gets on with his life. Christ was pretty clear on love trumping judgement.


The Airman:



is a huge asshole. He should have just accepted the certificate and gotten on with his life. And point of order - there was no discrimination on his sexual preferences. The colonel would have not-signed a certificate if it was a straight guy with a same-sex 'spouse' too.

The Commander of this whole thing should just drop it and let people move on.


Here's the kicker : The Colonel in question had his superior, a 2-Star General who didn't have a problem with it personally, sign it. He tried to do the right thing all the way around.

High_Plains_Drifter
10-24-2017, 08:42 AM
A christian would have or should have signed the document and wished the couple well in the next phase of their lives. Then the christian gets on with his life. Christ was pretty clear on love trumping judgement.
Well, I would respectfully like to disagree. The Bible is very clear how God/Christ/The Holy Spirit feels about homosexuality, see the book of Leviticus 18, so although a Christian may not or should not pass judgement, it is not un-Christian like to not accept it, and if the Colonel saw signing a document for homosexual marriage as an act of acceptance, or condoning such behavior, thus refusing to sign it was right for him to do.

I never did like the bullying tactics used by homos. They used to say, "we just want to be left alone," then they turned around and have some of the most lewd and in your face parades on the planet, and also descend upon anyone who would defy their agenda or speak out against them like a rabid Nazi legion of bigots out for blood. That to me just gave me two reason to dislike them.

darin
10-24-2017, 09:07 AM
Well, I would respectfully like to disagree. The Bible is very clear how God/Christ/The Holy Spirit feels about homosexuality, see the book of Leviticus 18, so although a Christian may not or should not pass judgement, it is not un-Christian like to not accept it, and if the Colonel saw signing a document for homosexual marriage as an act of acceptance, or condoning such behavior, thus refusing to sign it was right for him to do.

Christ accepted sinful behaviour all the time. He expected it. I think the Colonel has his own theology and i'm sure he's sincere in his beliefs yet all the sincerity in the world never turned a falsehood into truth. I think Christ would have not only signed it, but gave them a hug and wished them well. Besides the fact the law of Leviticus doesn't rule Christians, Love - showing love towards those who don't understand Christ is more important than teaching them about Christ per se.


I never did like the bullying tactics used by homos. They used to say, "we just want to be left alone," then they turned around and have some of the most lewd and in your face parades on the planet, and also descend upon anyone who would defy their agenda or speak out against them like a rabid Nazi legion of bigots out for blood. That to me just gave me two reason to dislike them.


That is the worst part about their movement - their militancy. They are agenda-driven, defined by their lifestyle. Breaks my heart.

High_Plains_Drifter
10-24-2017, 09:16 AM
Christ accepted sinful behaviour all the time. He expected it. I think the Colonel has his own theology and i'm sure he's sincere in his beliefs yet all the sincerity in the world never turned a falsehood into truth. I think Christ would have not only signed it, but gave them a hug and wished them well. Besides the fact the law of Leviticus doesn't rule Christians, Love - showing love towards those who don't understand Christ is more important than teaching them about Christ per se.
Well, again, I really have to disagree. Christ did not "accept" homosexuality in any shape, way or form. He knew it existed, but did not accept it. The Holy Trinity is God, and God is Christ, and Christ is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God, and if you're truly a Christian, then you believe the word of God, and the word of God is clear. If you decide to defy the word of God on homosexuality, then you are not doing as a Christian would do. You are doing as what you see to do as a human being, making up your own mind, you are not following the Bible. God/Christ would never have signed that document. That's like saying that God didn't mean what he said in the Bible.

darin
10-24-2017, 09:33 AM
Well, again, I really have to disagree. Christ did not "accept" homosexuality in any shape, way or form. He knew it existed, but did not accept it. The Holy Trinity is God, and God is Christ, and Christ is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God, and if you're truly a Christian, then you believe the word of God, and the word of God is clear. If you decide to defy the word of God on homosexuality, then you are not doing as a Christian would do. You are doing as what you see to do as a human being, making up your own mind, you are not following the Bible. God/Christ would never have signed that document. That's like saying that God didn't mean what he said in the Bible.

Christ accepted Sin as the condition. The ONLY people he vocally rebuked were the religious leaders of the day. He accepted man's fallen condition. But. But he already 'saved' us because death (which is sin) and hell are cast into oblivion (if you think of time and its relative nature that has already happened)...and anyone who was imprisoned in hell was freed after christ died and let those imprisoned out of hell. Then christ closed the gates of hell and all that. One thing that itches me - you're taking a specific act that appears NOWHERE in the bible and assuming what Christ would or wouldn't have done. If Christ would dine with "sinners" (back in the day dining with someone meant something special), he'd sign stuff.

So - the point is - Because of what we learn through scripture - the examples Christ sets, love trumps everything. Love trumps condemnation. Let me ask you this - was that Colonel loving his neighbor like he loves himself? If HE wanted or expected a signed 'thank you' for his spouse, would he want someone to avoid singing it? remember, when asked, Christ said "loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment - along with loving God. That means if you need to rank stuff, Loving our neighbors is more-important than not-committing adultery. IF we were forced to rank things.

Love wins, Tom.

pete311
10-24-2017, 09:38 AM
Fuck what a piece/s of paper says. Just be a decent human being. Stop wasting your time on interpretation. Guess what, everyone has their own unique interpretation and it's mind numblingly arrogant to think you know exactly how to interpret it like you're the son of god himself.

darin and I agree on little, but if you boil everything down, "love wins" is pretty darn good.

darin
10-24-2017, 09:51 AM
Fuck what a piece/s of paper says. Just be a decent human being. Stop wasting your time on interpretation. Guess what, everyone has their own unique interpretation and it's mind numblingly arrogant to think you know exactly how to interpret it like you're the son of god himself.

darin and I agree on little, but if you boil everything down, "love wins" is pretty darn good.


go away heathen.

High_Plains_Drifter
10-24-2017, 09:53 AM
Christ accepted Sin as the condition. The ONLY people he vocally rebuked were the religious leaders of the day. He accepted man's fallen condition. But. But he already 'saved' us because death (which is sin) and hell are cast into oblivion (if you think of time and its relative nature that has already happened)...and anyone who was imprisoned in hell was freed after christ died and let those imprisoned out of hell. Then christ closed the gates of hell and all that. One thing that itches me - you're taking a specific act that appears NOWHERE in the bible and assuming what Christ would or wouldn't have done. If Christ would dine with "sinners" (back in the day dining with someone meant something special), he'd sign stuff.

So - the point is - Because of what we learn through scripture - the examples Christ sets, love trumps everything. Love trumps condemnation. Let me ask you this - was that Colonel loving his neighbor like he loves himself? If HE wanted or expected a signed 'thank you' for his spouse, would he want someone to avoid singing it? remember, when asked, Christ said "loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment - along with loving God. That means if you need to rank stuff, Loving our neighbors is more-important than not-committing adultery. IF we were forced to rank things.

Love wins, Tom.
Well, there's more to it than just love when Christianity and what the Bible says is the topic...

Christ spent his time around sinners because he himself said it is the sick that need a doctor, not the well. That didn't mean he accepted sin. Christ taught us not to sin, so there is no way he could have accepted it. The Bible also clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just because Christ loves us all doesn't mean we all can ignore what he states, and God said that a man should not lay with another man as a woman, that it is an abomination and their blood shall be upon them. That doesn't sound like accepting it to me. But in that, Jesus left one commandment to follow, love our God with all our heart and soul and love they neighbor as thyself, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the word of God, and that is what the colonel was doing, following the word of God.

darin
10-24-2017, 10:08 AM
Well, there's more to it than just love when Christianity and what the Bible says is the topic...

Christ spent his time around sinners because he himself said it is the sick that need a doctor, not the well. That didn't mean he accepted sin. Christ taught us not to sin, so there is no way he could have accepted it. The Bible also clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just because Christ loves us all doesn't mean we all can ignore what he states, and God said that a man should not lay with another man as a woman, that it is an abomination and their blood shall be upon them. That doesn't sound like accepting it to me. But in that, Jesus left one commandment to follow, love our God with all our heart and soul and love they neighbor as thyself, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the word of God, and that is what the colonel was doing, following the word of God.

He accepted the PEOPLE regardless of their "sin" - that's the whole point. Christ has forgiven and paid-for every single sin. From here to eternity. Its already done. "Judgment" has happened. Redemption has happened (in the future of the time stream; in God's present). I contend the colonel was not loving the "spouse" as much as he loved himself. Signing what amounts to a 'thank you' letter is not advocating a position, blessing, or otherwise condoning any relationship. It's thanking the person for their support of the Airman, who served honorably. I think the Colonel was mistaken to not-sign it - even though I believe the airman was an asshole for pushing the issue.

We can go into another thread probably to discuss theology of Love vs Falling on one's sword for Christ - which he never asked anyone to really do....

Biggest question, Tom. Do you love me? :)

High_Plains_Drifter
10-24-2017, 05:01 PM
He accepted the PEOPLE regardless of their "sin" - that's the whole point. Christ has forgiven and paid-for every single sin. From here to eternity. Its already done. "Judgment" has happened. Redemption has happened (in the future of the time stream; in God's present). I contend the colonel was not loving the "spouse" as much as he loved himself. Signing what amounts to a 'thank you' letter is not advocating a position, blessing, or otherwise condoning any relationship. It's thanking the person for their support of the Airman, who served honorably. I think the Colonel was mistaken to not-sign it - even though I believe the airman was an asshole for pushing the issue.

We can go into another thread probably to discuss theology of Love vs Falling on one's sword for Christ - which he never asked anyone to really do....

Biggest question, Tom. Do you love me? :)
Well... I'll tell ya what, bro... my son, after what he describes as "nearly dying," has "found the Lord," and I have been getting into these day long, in depth discussions of the Bible with him about what it means and the reasons behind taking it to extreme levels, and to tell you the truth, I really don't enjoy them, because there's never any way to "win," because from what I see, each person has their own interpretation of the Bible and what it all means, and whether or not they believe the words in the Bible literally, without wiggle room as my son does, or the words are open to discussion because they mean different things to different people such as you apparently believe. So it's an endless discussion.

So what do I believe? I believe that ones relationship with God is personal, and every one is different. God to yourself is what you want God to be, as you determine for yourself what the Bible says and means, and I don't worry what other's say I should or shouldn't be doing, or that God/Christ would do this or that and you're right or you're wrong, that's all aggravating to me. No one alive knew Christ. All we have is what some men wrote in a book about his life, and pretty much the same about God, so I find it slightly irritating for anyone to tell me they know exactly what God or Christ would do or is thinking. They don't know any better than I do, or the next guy, because he'll purport that he knows too, and he's right, and the next guy and the next guy. Even church to church, the preachers preach different things, which brings us back to accepting homosexual marriage. I've already stated my opinion what God/Christ taught us about that, and you have stated what you believe too. I think we're very close to being on the same page by simply being put, "hate the sin, love the sinner."

(Much of what I've just said comes from my frustration of talking with my son, whom I see as becoming a zealot, a closed minded, rigid ideologue that cherry picks what he believes and listens and believes only things that support what he sees as the truth. He will dismiss everything else as a lie or a deception of something the devil is pulling, and he is taking it all to an extreme level. I just can't hang with it. I think he's going off the deep end. I've already told him he should go join the Amish.)

Now was it right for the colonel not to sign this paper, because he obviously believes homosexual marriage is an abomination as per the word of God? Well, I'm sure the choice he made was what he believed was doing the right thing. Would I have signed it? No. Would I bake a cake for a homosexual marriage party? No, I wouldn't do that either.

Do I love you? Honestly, from what I gathered about you from all the years we've all been talking on this forum or that, I think you're a good guy with a good heart, so I would say that I as far as people go, you're much more the kind of person I think I could have as a friend than a lot of others. Does that mean I love you? IDK... I'll let you decide... ;)

darin
10-25-2017, 02:16 AM
Do I love you? Honestly, from what I gathered about you from all the years we've all been talking on this forum or that, I think you're a good guy with a good heart, so I would say that I as far as people go, you're much more the kind of person I think I could have as a friend than a lot of others. Does that mean I love you? IDK... I'll let you decide... ;)

Thanks. Christ called us, challenged us, informed us we WILL love folks. So...yeah. :) That's the crux of the argument for Christianity - love wins.

Abbey
10-25-2017, 04:24 PM
Tom, can you hang in there a little longer with your son? I think he will calm down at some point. New Christians can get very excited and push too hard.

As for the theology debate, my sincere belief and understanding can be summed up by the way Jesus handled the woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned.

1. He taught us not to judge others' sin, because we are all sinners ourselves
2. And the part that liberal Christians always conveniently leave out- after all was done, Jesus commanded the woman to "Go and sin no more". Clearly Jesus himself expects us to repent of our sin-which by definition includes not doing it anymore.

High_Plains_Drifter
10-26-2017, 12:14 AM
Tom, can you hang in there a little longer with your son? I think he will calm down at some point. New Christians can get very excited and push too hard.

As for the theology debate, my sincere belief and understanding can be summed up by the way Jesus handled the woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned.

1. He taught us not to judge others' sin, because we are all sinners ourselves
2. And the part that liberal Christians always conveniently leave out- after all was done, Jesus commanded the woman to "Go and sin no more". Clearly Jesus himself expects us to repent of our sin-which by definition includes not doing it anymore.
He's far more than just became a Christian, Abbey, he is absolutely CONSUMED with it, all day, every day, and has gotten into the fringe stuff too, like the YEC crowd, (young earth creationist), that believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and that God literally created the heavens and the earth in 6 days. They take every word in the Bible literally, period, and there is no wiggle room. I think it's way, waaaay overboard, just overkill, borderline cultist.

But we talk just about every day, and to keep the peace we try for the most part to just stay away from it, because it usually leads into a huge, uncomfortable debate.

I hope he does wake up someday and wonder, why did I go that far? Why did I believe this or that? What was I thinking... because I don't believe for one second that that level of immersion and in some cases suspending your logic brain and believing only what you cherry pick, is the only way for a Christian to get into heaven.

darin
10-26-2017, 04:09 AM
Tom, can you hang in there a little longer with your son? I think he will calm down at some point. New Christians can get very excited and push too hard.

As for the theology debate, my sincere belief and understanding can be summed up by the way Jesus handled the woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned.

1. He taught us not to judge others' sin, because we are all sinners ourselves
2. And the part that liberal Christians always conveniently leave out- after all was done, Jesus commanded the woman to "Go and sin no more". Clearly Jesus himself expects us to repent of our sin-which by definition includes not doing it anymore.

I appreciate that - but I think he's more concerned with the trouble it will cause her than anything - and it doesn't address teh fact after/at crucifixion, christ liberated those who were held-captive in hell. Means the 'sinners' who are/were/will be in hell were liberated then.

#scifi #timelinestuff

High_Plains_Drifter
10-26-2017, 07:48 AM
I appreciate that - but I think he's more concerned with the trouble it will cause her than anything - and it doesn't address teh fact after/at crucifixion, christ liberated those who were held-captive in hell. Means the 'sinners' who are/were/will be in hell were liberated then.

#scifi #timelinestuff
Could you quote me that in the Bible?

darin
10-26-2017, 08:14 AM
Could you quote me that in the Bible?

Sure.


1 Peter 3:18-20 New International Version (NIV)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water...



The Message:
19-22 He went and proclaimed God’s salvation to earlier generations who ended up in the prison of judgment because they wouldn’t listen. You know, even though God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few were saved then, eight to be exact—saved from the water by the water. The waters of baptism do that for you, not by washing away dirt from your skin but by presenting you through Jesus’ resurrection before God with a clear conscience. Jesus has the last word on everything and everyone, from angels to armies. He’s standing right alongside God, and what he says goes.


Mounce:

in which also he went and proclaimed to the spirits in Prison/
en hos kai kēryssō poreuō kēryssō ho spirits pneuma en phylakē


Because God is not bound by Time - because measured time that exists for us cannot exist the same way for god, in His realm, it stands to reason that to whomever Christ preached - those imprisoned - that was everyone from all of time back and beyond. Because for God - time doesn't wait. He's not 'waiting up there' for 2000 years to return. Christ is there now (outside this time stream) at judgment and salvation. He's already there throwing hell and death into all-consuming fire so hell and death is no more.

:)

But that's just my take on it. Frankly I find it impossible for God to endlessly and forever torture every single soul he doesn't like, simply as punishment for what they did or didn't do while they were alive/human. No parent would do that. In fact, the modern teaching of hell originated Roman and Greeks etc, who used 'everlasting punishment' as a threat to keep people in fear.

I think this guy gets it right. Its unpopular because it removes power from Churches and gives God the ability to show grace. Always.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F27jxwHDrzM

And then there's this.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
In the greek. All = the whole, entire,. So - For as Adam brought death to the entire - the whole of mankind, in christ the whole of, the entirety of mankind shall be made alive. There is no Death anymore. No hell. No eternal punishment. Mostly or partly because to beings outside of time, eternity doesn't matter - because it both has never happened and always happens. it's a measurement of something (time) that does not exist to God.

High_Plains_Drifter
10-26-2017, 08:32 AM
Sure.

Because God is not bound by Time - because measured time that exists for us cannot exist the same way for god, in His realm, it stands to reason that to whomever Christ preached - those imprisoned - that was everyone from all of time back and beyond. Because for God - time doesn't wait. He's not 'waiting up there' for 2000 years to return. Christ is there now (outside this time stream) at judgment and salvation. He's already there throwing hell and death into all-consuming fire so hell and death is no more.

:)

But that's just my take on it. Frankly I find it impossible for God to endlessly and forever torture every single soul he doesn't like, simply as punishment for what they did or didn't do while they were alive/human. No parent would do that. In fact, the modern teaching of hell originated Roman and Greeks etc, who used 'everlasting punishment' as a threat to keep people in fear.

I think this guy gets it right. Its unpopular because it removes power from Churches and gives God the ability to show grace. Always.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F27jxwHDrzM
Thanks... OK... I see that Christ liberated 20 from hell, but I don't get how that translates to now every single person never has to worry about going to hell. Christ also said that "the way unto the father is through me, so if you profess with your mouth that you think God is the magic man in the sky and ridicule Christianity as a non believer, I don't believe you're going to heaven, but to add to that, the discussion of God/Christ/The Holy Spirit as being all one and the same, the Trinity, is an interesting conversation, especially when the Bible quotes God speaking of Jesus as his son, and quotes Jesus speaking of God as father in heaven. Why is that if they're one and the same?

But I have to agree with you on one point, and that is I don't believe the ONLY way into heaven is to be an absolute 24/7, Bible studying, word spreading, consumed zealot. God created us, he knows how we live and what we are. If he created us to be that way, then why make strict rules about the only way to live that really aren't in step with what we are as they only way to get to heaven? There's somewhere in Revelations that says, basically, that those who shall cry out to the Lord in the end shall be saved, and I believe that. I believe God is far more loving, as you've tried to make the point, than people say. Purported Christians seem to love to point out that to get to heaven there's very strict procedures to follow... well, I don't think so. In fact, I believe the Lord has been active in my life and not only saved my life a time or two, but has shown me miracles. Now why would he do that if he was going to throw me into the burning pit of hell for eternity? Why would he have wasted his time?

I know my two paragraphs might seem a little contradictory, but, that's how confusing some of this can be to me.

darin
10-26-2017, 08:49 AM
Thanks... OK... I see that Christ liberated 20 from hell, but I don't get how that translates to now every single person never has to worry about going to hell. Christ also said that "the way unto the father is through me, so if you profess with your mouth that you think God is the magic man in the sky and ridicule Christianity as a non believer, I don't believe you're going to heaven, but to add to that, the discussion of God/Christ/The Holy Spirit as being all one and the same, the Trinity, is an interesting conversation, especially when the Bible quotes God speaking of Jesus as his son, and quotes Jesus speaking of God as father in heaven. Why is that if they're one and the same?

But I have to agree with you on one point, and that is I don't believe the ONLY way into heaven is to be an absolute 24/7, Bible studying, word spreading, consumed zealot. God created us, he knows how we live and what we are. If he created us to be that way, then why make strict rules about the only way to live that really aren't in step with what we are as they only way to get to heaven? There's somewhere in Revelations that says, basically, that those who shall cry out to the Lord in the end shall be saved, and I believe that. I believe God is far more loving, as you've tried to make the point, than people say. Purported Christians seem to love to point out that to get to heaven there's very strict procedures to follow... well, I don't think so. In fact, I believe the Lord has been active in my life and not only saved my life a time or two, but has shown me miracles. Now why would he do that if he was going to throw me into the burning pit of hell for eternity? Why would he have wasted his time?

I know my two paragraphs might seem a little contradictory, but, that's how confusing some of this can be to me.

Liberated 20? I don't see that anywhere. But Christ proved - even if he saved only 20 - that confession can happen after death...because "EVERY knee will bow and confess..." righto? :)

High_Plains_Drifter
10-26-2017, 09:00 AM
Liberated 20? I don't see that anywhere. But Christ proved - even if he saved only 20 - that confession can happen after death...because "EVERY knee will bow and confess..." righto? :)
Whoops... sorry... it was the sentence number... :laugh: