Atheism

[Abbey Marie]

Am I alone in thinking that Atheism is now rampant in our country? Am I just in a particularly Godless part of the nation?

I once saw a statistic that 85% of the country was Christian. Add in Jews and Muslims, etc., and one would think there must be very few Atheists.

What do y'all think?

[pete311]

I can only hope so. I am an atheist.

[aboutime]

I can only hope so. I am an atheist.


Personally, I have no problem with anyone who claims to be an atheist. But where I draw the line is when an Atheist try's to tell me I am wrong for having faith, or believing as I believe.

IMO...The Secret to all of the Religion problems is....
"Everyone mind your own business", and the problems go away.

<img src="https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7a/6a/69/7a6a69814fb79972afbf763924ebe7d4.jpg">

[Gunny]

Am I alone in thinking that Atheism is now rampant in our country? Am I just in a particularly Godless part of the nation?

I once saw a statistic that 85% of the country was Christian. Add in Jews and Muslims, etc., and one would think there must be very few Atheists.

What do y'all think?I salt it the same way I do any other media sensantionalism/outright lie. You'd think blacks were more than 13% of the population too with all the attention and hype they get. Their numbers are media creations just as atheist numbers are.

Atheists are dumbasses anyway. Their whole stance is in "not believing"; which, is of itself a belief.

[pete311]

Atheists are dumbasses anyway. Their whole stance is in "not believing"; which, is of itself a belief.

Atheists are not against beliefs. That is just ridiculous.

[Gunny]

Atheists are not against beliefs. That is just ridiculous.It is what it is and quite logical. Ridiculous would be the hypocrisy of believing in not believing.

[aboutime]

Atheists are not against beliefs. That is just ridiculous.


Not true petey. If you want us to believe what you said here. Explain why you MUST be an Atheist to begin with...What are you claiming NOT to believe?

If you want us to believe what you claim. Why does your claim sound so much like an OXYMORON?

What is Atheism? | American Atheists
https://www.atheists.org › Activism › Resources
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. ... Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

[Abbey Marie]

Atheists are not against beliefs. That is just ridiculous.

Dan Brown has devoted his latest book to trying to convince us all there is no God.

[pete311]

It is what it is and quite logical. Ridiculous would be the hypocrisy of believing in not believing.

I consider myself atheist and I believe in no man made god. That is a belief. What is wrong logically with that?

[pete311]

Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

A lack of belief in god does not mean atheists don't believe in "beliefs". I am arguing gunny's claim. I have tons of beliefs. Just not in god.

[darin]

Yep. Atheists have shit-tons of faith. Probably the most faithful people i know, frankly. In fact, I could never be an atheist because of the faith-without-evidence-type beliefs required - hell, atheism is faith in the FACE of evidence. Atheism is Nero and his fiddle. Atheism is Santa Claus for 6 year olds. Atheism is #screamhelplesslyintothesky. Atheism is illogical dogma. Yet we have millions who worship at the feet of the mystical chance-driven religion of atheism. Their lives would be so much better if they opened their eyes.

[Abbey Marie]

Yep. Atheists have shit-tons of faith. Probably the most faithful people i know, frankly. In fact, I could never be an atheist because of the faith-without-evidence-type beliefs required - hell, atheism is faith in the FACE of evidence. Atheism is Nero and his fiddle. Atheism is Santa Claus for 6 year olds. Atheism is #screamhelplesslyintothesky. Atheism is illogical dogma. Yet we have millions who worship at the feet of the mystical chance-driven religion of atheism. Their lives would be so much better if they opened their eyes.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10981&stc=1

[pete311]

Yep. Atheists have shit-tons of faith. Probably the most faithful people i know, frankly. In fact, I could never be an atheist because of the faith-without-evidence-type beliefs required - hell, atheism is faith in the FACE of evidence. Atheism is Nero and his fiddle. Atheism is Santa Claus for 6 year olds. Atheism is #screamhelplesslyintothesky. Atheism is illogical dogma. Yet we have millions who worship at the feet of the mystical chance-driven religion of atheism. Their lives would be so much better if they opened their eyes.

I don't know what any of this blather means.

[darin]

I don't know what any of this blather means.

Put down your fear. (shrug). Put on a logical mind. it's easy.

[pete311]

Put down your fear. (shrug). Put on a logical mind. it's easy.

What fear? What logic?

[darin]

What fear? What logic?

I think you're afraid of truth. I suspect you're afraid of what it might mean to know God exists. I suspect most folks' self-esteem cant handle the thought they are NOT the center of the world and stuff. Logic. You know...the opposite of Atheism. Thinking this happened by magic or mystical good-fortune...bro...that my friend takes faith.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I believe in no man made god.
Where did you get the idea that "man made God?"

[pete311]

I think you're afraid of truth. I suspect you're afraid of what it might mean to know God exists. I suspect most folks' self-esteem cant handle the thought they are NOT the center of the world and stuff. Logic. You know...the opposite of Atheism. Thinking this happened by magic or mystical good-fortune...bro...that my friend takes faith.

hmmm easier to believe there is eternal darkness or a nice heaven. I wonder which is easier.

[pete311]

Where did you get the idea that "man made God?"

Every single religion is man made. A man wrote every single piece of scripture in every single holy book.

[darin]

hmmm easier to believe there is eternal darkness or a nice heaven. I wonder which is easier.

i dont care about those things. I care about reason, evidence, probability, and love. And truth. Absolutes. Data.



Every single religion is man made. A man wrote every single piece of scripture in every single holy book.

Nobody cares nor is talking about Scripture. God is infinitely bigger than a book. The book simply describes God anyway. God's nature.

Nature, on the other hand, describes God's love. Nature POINTS to creation. And that's a good thing.

[pete311]

i dont care about those things. I care about reason, evidence, probability, and love. And truth. Absolutes. Data.


Please tell me this reason, evidence, probability, and love. And truth. Absolutes. Data.



Nature POINTS to creation.

Please explain and don't link me to creationism vs evolution bullshit

[Gunny]

I consider myself atheist and I believe in no man made god. That is a belief. What is wrong logically with that?



IN YOUR OWN WORDS, you believe in not believing. The context of the OP is a belief in God. You cannot refute the existence of God logically, scientifically, nor in any other manner. The only argument against the existence of God is MAN-MADE.

It has been my observation over the years that atheism is based on the inconvenience of Man having to answer to a Higher Authority and Higher Law than those Man makes for his own convenience/pleasure/benefit. The entire universe and life itself just "miracled itself" into existence and made Man God. Completely illogical.

[pete311]

IN YOUR OWN WORDS, you believe in not believing.

Yes, and... so what?



The context of the OP is a belief in God. You cannot refute the existence of God logically, scientifically, nor in any other manner. The only argument against the existence of God is MAN-MADE.

It has been my observation over the years that atheism is based on the inconvenience of Man having to answer to a Higher Authority and Higher Law than those Man makes for his own convenience/pleasure/benefit. The entire universe and life itself just "miracled itself" into existence and made Man God. Completely illogical.

Correct, we can't refute nor prove the existence in a god, so I choose to remain in doubt. The concept of a god is man made. Think horses or goldfish believe in a god?

[Gunny]

Yes, and... so what?



Correct, we can't refute nor prove the existence in a god, so I choose to remain in doubt. The concept of a god is man made. Think horses or goldfish believe in a god?Difference being, I'm not the one trying to prove anything, nor am I, based on the rules of debate, required to. I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. The atheist organization in the OP IS. The Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Especially when those crying for freedom from religion are a small minority, unconstitutional, and are trying to force ITS beliefs on others for no more reason than a belief in not believing.

I guess they figured they weren't getting enough attention what with BLM, AntiFA, and illegal aliens getting it all.

Speaking of illogical, I have never seen as many groups of zanies demanding special treatment and freedom from the very laws that have given them the freedoms they have. I look at atheism in the same light ... you'll find it in the novel by Mary Wollstonecraft Shelly -- "Frankenstein". You would destroy that which created you.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Every single religion is man made. A man wrote every single piece of scripture in every single holy book.
That's not what you said. You said you didn't believe in a "man made God."

Well, neither do I, but words in a book don't make a God. Words written in the Bible don't "make God."

The words in the Bible are basically a historical account, and nowhere in those words does it state that "man made God."

[High_Plains_Drifter]

A wise man once said...

"... I'd rather live my life believing there is a God and die and find out there isn't, than live my life believing there isn't a God and die and find out there is."

[pete311]

Difference being, I'm not the one trying to prove anything, nor am I, based on the rules of debate, required to. I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone.

Neither am I, guess we agree and have nothing further to discuss.

[pete311]

That's not what you said. You said you didn't believe in a "man made God."

Well, neither do I, but words in a book don't make a God. Words written in the Bible don't "make God."

The words in the Bible are basically a historical account, and nowhere in those words does it state that "man made God."


All religions create an image of their god. After all how else would you know the christian god without the bible and church? You think a man grown up in isolation on some island miraculously understands the christian god?
The Bible is not history, was never meant to be. The Bible's writers knew this, theologians know this.

[pete311]

A wise man once said...

"... I'd rather live my life believing there is a God and die and find out there isn't, than live my life believing there isn't a God and die and find out there is."

Yeah his name was Pascal and if that's the kind of gutless bullshit your god enjoys then what does that say about your god? I'd value a god who values skepticism, critical thinking and discovery. Not someone basically making a calculation.

[aboutime]

Every single religion is man made. A man wrote every single piece of scripture in every single holy book.


petey... How surprising that with that statement above, you didn't also admit that you, or anyone who identifies as an Atheist...ALSO WROTE THE LINES, STORIES, or SCRIPTURE you use to insist "THERE IS NO GOD!"

Your hypocrisy creeped in, and made you sound like the fool you are.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

All religions create an image of their god.
Nope, sorry, that's not true.


After all how else would you know the christian god without the bible and church? You think a man grown up in isolation on some island miraculously understands the christian god?
God presented himself to Moses, and spoke to others through angels, etc.


The Bible is not history, was never meant to be. The Bible's writers knew this, theologians know this.
Nope, sorry, wrong again. The Bible is basically a history book inspired by actually events, except for the book of Revelations which is a foretelling of the future.

You know NOTHING of what the the writers of the Bible knew, or you wouldn't here proclaiming to be an atheist, and theologians can only give you their opinion.

[pete311]

petey... How surprising that with that statement above, you didn't also admit that you, or anyone who identifies as an Atheist...ALSO WROTE THE LINES, STORIES, or SCRIPTURE you use to insist "THERE IS NO GOD!"

Your hypocrisy creeped in, and made you sound like the fool you are.

I never said there is no God. Belief is different than fact. I believe there is no man made god. I leave the possibility for something of a higher power, but certainly not in the realm of medieval fables that we have to choose from now.

[pete311]

Nope, sorry, that's not true.


It's a fact. How do you know anything about the Christian god? The bible, who wrote the bible? Men. These are man made religions.



God presented himself to Moses, and spoke to others through angels, etc.


How do you know? It's in the bible? Written by who?



Nope, sorry, wrong again. The Bible is basically a history book inspired by actually events, except for the book of Revelations which is a foretelling of the future.

You know NOTHING of what the the writers of the Bible knew, or you wouldn't here proclaiming to be an atheist, and theologians can only give you their opinion.

No it's not. The Bible is not a primary document. It's been rewritten, translated and books put together over the centuries by the church to form an evangelical device. It's authors wrote their books decades and even centuries after Jesus.

[aboutime]

I never said there is no God. Belief is different than fact. I believe there is no man made god. I leave the possibility for something of a higher power, but certainly not in the realm of medieval fables that we have to choose from now.


You really are a jerk petey. You are so confused, not even you know what you said, or are talking about. Never mind...you still refuse to honestly answer my questions without becoming a double-talking stooge for your hypocrisy, and hatred.
The great thing is...and you can't do anything about it is....No matter how you come here to convince yourself about your brainwashed Atheist thoughts...you will never remove, or destroy what we BELIEVERS call..."Our Faith!"

For as long as you, and others have claimed to be Atheists....you still haven't had any success in proving ANY OF US WRONG.

[pete311]

You really are a jerk petey. You are so confused, not even you know what you said, or are talking about. Never mind...you still refuse to honestly answer my questions without becoming a double-talking stooge for your hypocrisy, and hatred.
The great thing is...and you can't do anything about it is....No matter how you come here to convince yourself about your brainwashed Atheist thoughts...you will never remove, or destroy what we BELIEVERS call..."Our Faith!"

For as long as you, and others have claimed to be Atheists....you still haven't had any success in proving ANY OF US WRONG.

I was in a bad mood, but you put me back in a good mood, thanks! I am not here to prove you wrong. I got better things to do.

[Gunny]

Neither am I, guess we agree and have nothing further to discuss.If we have nothing to discuss, why did you post in the thread? The thread very much is about an atheist organization trying to force what it believes on everyone else. You defended atheism. The math to the last two sentences isn't hard. If your desire is to defend only your version of atheism only, it's rather foolish to piggyback on a thread about a group with a stated agenda, is it not?

[aboutime]

I was in a bad mood, but you put me back in a good mood, thanks! I am not here to prove you wrong. I got better things to do.


Great. So....why are you still here? Another liberal lie coming from you isn't unusual. Still no answers for my questions, and....everybody will watch where you go next here on DP. Or...do you really have better things to do? If so. Time to take that long walk, off that Short pier might help ya!

[pete311]

If we have nothing to discuss, why did you post in the thread? The thread very much is about an atheist organization trying to force what it believes on everyone else. You defended atheism. The math to the last two sentences isn't hard. If your desire is to defend only your version of atheism only, it's rather foolish to piggyback on a thread about a group with a stated agenda, is it not?

I don't support any organization nor defend my belief position.

[pete311]

Not true petey. If you want us to believe what you said here. Explain why you MUST be an Atheist to begin with...What are you claiming NOT to believe?

If you want us to believe what you claim. Why does your claim sound so much like an OXYMORON?

I don't "MUST" be anything. I don't believe in man made gods. What oxymoron, explain what you mean.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

It's a fact. How do you know anything about the Christian god? The bible, who wrote the bible? Men. These are man made religions.

How do you know? It's in the bible? Written by who?

No it's not. The Bible is not a primary document. It's been rewritten, translated and books put together over the centuries by the church to form an evangelical device. It's authors wrote their books decades and even centuries after Jesus.
Well, now you're just back to talking like an idiot, and I'm not going to repeat myself, or try to convince you of something that you wouldn't admit being wrong about even if your life depended on it.

You're a Christian basher, got it, b'bye.

[pete311]

Well, now you're just back to talking like an idiot, and I'm not going to repeat myself, or try to convince you of something that you wouldn't admit being wrong about even if your life depended on it.

You're a Christian basher, got it, b'bye.

Good rebuttle. Not bashing anything.

[Gunny]

I don't "MUST" be anything. I don't believe in man made gods. What oxymoron, explain what you mean.So you don't believe in man-made Gods, a position not supported by any evidence. Yet, you keep calling God "man-made". Why would you believe in a stance of disbelief with nothing to support such a stance?

[aboutime]

I don't "MUST" be anything. I don't believe in man made gods. What oxymoron, explain what you mean.


Nope. I'm not just another liberal idiot like you....who never answers questions without asking more questions. No need to explain anything to you until you decide to honestly answer previous questions you keep ducking.

Go to page 13 of the DNC Talking Points Manual that tells you to NEVER answer any question that might make you see how you have lied.

Get back to us if you DARE.

[pete311]

So you don't believe in man-made Gods, a position not supported by any evidence. Yet, you keep calling God "man-made". Why would you believe in a stance of disbelief with nothing to support such a stance?

Indeed, in fact, it's a position supported by the lack of evidence.

[pete311]

Nope. I'm not just another liberal idiot like you....who never answers questions without asking more questions. No need to explain anything to you until you decide to honestly answer previous questions you keep ducking.

Go to page 13 of the DNC Talking Points Manual that tells you to NEVER answer any question that might make you see how you have lied.

Get back to us if you DARE.

Great talking with you!

[Gunny]

Indeed, in fact, it's a position supported by the lack of evidence.There is more evidence to support a Creator than there is not. You can start with your existence in an infinite universe of crashing stars and planets, asteroids, comets and whatever else may have you. Yet in all that shooting gallery, here we sit. A form of life capable of reason (questionable nowadays).

And we just happened to pop up out of nowhere. Scientifically and logically impossible. That.

[pete311]

There is more evidence to support a Creator than there is not. You can start with your existence in an infinite universe of crashing stars and planets, asteroids, comets and whatever else may have you. Yet in all that shooting gallery, here we sit. A form of life capable of reason (questionable nowadays).

And we just happened to pop up out of nowhere. Scientifically and logically impossible. That.

I don't see how any of that is evidence. Lack of understanding is not evidence.

[Gunny]

I don't see how any of that is evidence.Because you don't want to. Doesn't suit your agenda. God could walk up and slap you in the head and you'd tell Him He wasn't God. I'm sure He carries a birth certificate and driver's license :laugh:

[pete311]

Because you don't want to. Doesn't suit your agenda. God could walk up and slap you in the head and you'd tell Him He wasn't God. I'm sure He carries a birth certificate and driver's license :laugh:

Probably just a homeless man. I think you missed my last statement that "Lack of understanding is not evidence."

[aboutime]

Great talking with you!


Really petey? Another Lie? How predictable can you get?

[pete311]

Really petey? Another Lie? How predictable can you get?
Not a lie, you brighten up my day with your unique humor. Took me so long to get it, but now I do!

[aboutime]

Not a lie, you brighten up my day with your unique humor. Took me so long to get it, but now I do!


So you laugh at yourself when you can't handle the truth? How bout showing all of us how honest you claim to be? Start answering questions with more than more questions, and pretending not to be so stupid with your lies?

[pete311]

So you laugh at yourself when you can't handle the truth? How bout showing all of us how honest you claim to be? Start answering questions with more than more questions, and pretending not to be so stupid with your lies?

I answered your questions and I don't know how to answer the oxymoron question. I don't understand it.

[aboutime]

I answered your questions and I don't know how to answer the oxymoron question. I don't understand it.

Wrong again. Go back and consult your Outdated copy of the Liberal, DNC talking points manual. Read it till you Think you understand how dumb you sound to all of us.

[Gunny]

Probably just a homeless man. I think you missed my last statement that "Lack of understanding is not evidence."I agree. You have none. Atheism is nothing but a monument to Man's arrogance. To the point that you believe Man created God instead of the more logical choice.

Again, that logical choice is an offense to Man's arrogant belief he is the supreme being. Except we are incapable of creating a universe. A planet that sustains human life. We cannot even recreate life without monkeying around with parts already provided by the original Creator.

Yet Man can presume to be "THE" Supreme Being. If you look at Mankind, that in and of itself is a joke. You can't give Mankind anything without him destroying it.

[pete311]

Wrong again. Go back and consult your Outdated copy of the Liberal, DNC talking points manual. Read it till you Think you understand how dumb you sound to all of us.

beep beep boop beep boop. I seriously am at a loss how to communicate with you. A true achievement! Congrats!

[pete311]

I agree. You have none. Atheism is nothing but a monument to Man's arrogance. To the point that you believe Man created God instead of the more logical choice.

Again, that logical choice is an offense to Man's arrogant belief he is the supreme being. Except we are incapable of creating a universe. A planet that sustains human life. We cannot even recreate life without monkeying around with parts already provided by the original Creator.

Yet Man can presume to be "THE" Supreme Being. If you look at Mankind, that in and of itself is a joke. You can't give Mankind anything without him destroying it.

Man wrote all the holy books. That does not mean I don't consider the possibility of a higher power. I especially don't think humans are a supreme being. We are apes. I agree with your last statement.

[aboutime]

beep beep boop beep boop. I seriously am at a loss how to communicate with you. A true achievement! Congrats!


Of course you are at a loss. Liars never know the difference between their facts, and the real truth. It would be an achievement for YOU to actually act like a human with a brain.

[pete311]

Of course you are at a loss. Liars never know the difference between their facts, and the real truth. It would be an achievement for YOU to actually act like a human with a brain.
beep beep boop beep boop.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Good rebuttle. Not bashing anything.
Yes you are. You're spewing things about the Bible and Christianity that just aren't true, and you don't want to discuss anything about it because your mind is already made up about it, and you'll deny, deflect, contort and lie to belittle any religion, and in this case, Christianity.

I learned a long time ago it's an exercise in futility to argue people like you about religion.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Man wrote all the holy books. That does not mean I don't consider the possibility of a higher power. I especially don't think humans are a supreme being. We are apes. I agree with your last statement.
Man wrote all history. So then are you saying history is bull shit? MAN writes EVERYTHING. Is EVERYTHING MAN wrote a LIE?

Because whether you think so or not, the Bible IS primarily a historical account, despite your denials.

[pete311]

Yes you are. You're spewing things about the Bible and Christianity that just aren't true, and you don't want to discuss anything about it because your mind is already made up about it, and you'll deny, deflect, contort and lie to belittle any religion, and in this case, Christianity.

I learned a long time ago it's an exercise in futility to argue people like you about religion.

What have I said that isn't true?

[pete311]

Man wrote all history. So then are you saying history is bull shit? MAN writes EVERYTHING. Is EVERYTHING MAN wrote a LIE?

Because whether you think so or not, the Bible IS primarily a historical account, despite your denials.

I don't know what you mean by "man wrote all history". That doesn't make any sense.

The books of the Bible are books of testimony. Stories. Whose sole purpose is to spread the word of the Christian God. Some of it tries to be historical and some with truth, but much is fiction. In any case, as I already said, the bible has been edited and translated a million times by various churches for various reasons over centuries and written by largely anonymous men decades and centuries after Jesus. That's not a good thing for the reliability of such records.

[Gunny]

I don't know what you mean by "man wrote all history". That doesn't make any sense.

The books of the Bible are books of testimony. Stories. Whose sole purpose is to spread the word of the Christian God. Some of it tries to be historical and some with truth, but much is fiction. In any case, as I already said, the bible has been edited and translated a million times by various churches for various reasons over centuries and written by largely anonymous men decades and centuries after Jesus. That's not a good thing for the reliability of such records.Disagree on a couple of points.

One the Bible's "sole purpose" is NOT to spread the word of a Christian God". The first 3/4s of the Bible is Jewish history and proven fairly accurate. Christ appears in the New Testament and states he is not here to refute the word of God; rather, to reinforce it.

The King James version of the Holy Bible has been verified as fairly accurate to the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls are in fact evidence.

Roman records are also rather accurate to the history of Christ, and the Romans had ZERO reason to support the existence of a God they themselves did not worship. Romans did not become Christian until Constantine was Emperor and in fact, persecuted Christians. They di not persecute the Jews so much because the Pharisees that ruled Judaism after Israel rebelled against Rome and Israel was handed over to the Philistines kissed Roman ass.

The beliefs in your statement is not supported by historical fact.

[hjmick]

I choose not to discuss my religion or lack thereof. I prefer that others do the same.

[Black Diamond]

I choose not to discuss my religion or lack thereof. I prefer that others do the same.
That's because you need Jesus.

[Black Diamond]

Am I alone in thinking that Atheism is now rampant in our country? Am I just in a particularly Godless part of the nation?

I once saw a statistic that 85% of the country was Christian. Add in Jews and Muslims, etc., and one would think there must be very few Atheists.

What do y'all think?
Picking up steam.

[Gunny]

I choose not to discuss my religion or lack thereof. I prefer that others do the same.Depends. I can respect that. You aren't alone. I won't engage in a pissing contest over it and I'm far from a Holy roller. I can discuss it without selling it.

Well, except with gnostic. I do it then just to watch him whine:laugh:

[aboutime]

beep beep boop beep boop.


Finally. petey shows nothing, as usual.

[Abbey Marie]

I choose not to discuss my religion or lack thereof. I prefer that others do the same.

Why reply in a thread about religion, just to say you don't discuss religion?

:dunno:

And side note, why do you not want others to discuss religion? Why does even that bother you?

Thanks Black Diamond, for answering the question.

[Black Diamond]

Why reply in a thread about religion, just to say you don't discuss religion?

:dunno:

And side note, why do not want others to discuss religion? Why does even that bother you?

Thanks Black Diamond, for answering the question.
You're welcome. I live in a relatively conservative area and I saw a billboard (one of the new ones that changes every few minutes) saying God doesn't exist. I had never seen anything like that anywhere let alone around here.

[hjmick]

Why reply in a thread about religion, just to say you don't discuss religion?

:dunno:

And side note, why do not want others to discuss religion? Why does even that bother you?


Why not?

You apparently read something in my post that wasn't there...



I choose not to discuss my religion or lack thereof. I prefer that others do the same.


I have no problem with people discussing religion, I prefer they not discuss their religion specifically. Why? Because nine times out of ten they do so in an effort to convert someone. I don't know about you, but I'm quite happy where I am, religiously speaking, and don't need converting.

[PostmodernProphet]

Atheists are not against beliefs. That is just ridiculous.
you don't think its true?.........(let that sink in a minute)........

[PostmodernProphet]

Am I alone in thinking that Atheism is now rampant in our country? Am I just in a particularly Godless part of the nation?

I once saw a statistic that 85% of the country was Christian. Add in Jews and Muslims, etc., and one would think there must be very few Atheists.

What do y'all think?
I think the key is that 50% of the country is apathetic.......some may consider themselves "Christian" because momma used to go to church....

[PostmodernProphet]

Correct, we can't refute nor prove the existence in a god, so I choose to remain in doubt.
lol....after all this we find you're an agnostic instead of an atheist?........atheists have no doubt.......they DENY the existence of a god.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Indeed, in fact, it's a position supported by the lack of evidence.
that's the definition of "faith".......

[PostmodernProphet]

Man wrote all history. So then are you saying history is bull shit? .

oh wow......I've been doing this for decades and that's the first new argument I have seen in forever.......I'm adding that to my arsenal of rebuttals.......Five stars.........

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't know what you mean by "man wrote all history". That doesn't make any sense.

The books of the Bible are books of testimony. Stories. Whose sole purpose is to spread the word of the Christian God. Some of it tries to be historical and some with truth
good so far....



but much is fiction.
is this something you believe without evidence?.......in other words, it's what you hold to be true, in faith?....


In any case, as I already said, the bible has been edited and translated a million times by various churches for various reasons over centuries and written by largely anonymous men decades and centuries after Jesus. That's not a good thing for the reliability of such records.

actually, since we can compare it to copies made in the third century, we DO have more reliability now than we did a thousand years ago......

[High_Plains_Drifter]

What have I said that isn't true?
--------------------------------- http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/hysterical-laughter-smiley-emoticon.gif

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I don't know what you mean by "man wrote all history". That doesn't make any sense.
Really?

You mean you believe books magically write themselves?

I think the New Webster Dictionary should put examples of what you write sometimes for their definition of OBTUSE.

[pete311]

lol....after all this we find you're an agnostic instead of an atheist?........atheists have no doubt.......they DENY the existence of a god.....

agree to disagree, agnosticism is whether we can know, atheism is whether you believe. If anyone is 100% then they are an idiot. Nothing in life is certain. That is the definition of arrogance.

[pete311]

that's the definition of "faith".......

Cool, and I have a problem with faith? Where did I say that?

[pete311]

is this something you believe without evidence?.......in other words, it's what you hold to be true, in faith?....



Stories without evidence is fiction.

[pete311]

Really?

You mean you believe books magically write themselves?

I think the New Webster Dictionary should put examples of what you write sometimes for their definition of OBTUSE.

I'm sorry, where did you say books before? You said "man wrote all history". You should research the standards for historical accuracy. Then see if they fit much of the bible.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I'm sorry, where did you say books before? You said "man wrote all history". You should research the standards for historical accuracy. Then see if they fit much of the bible.
Oh I'm sorry... I didn't know you'd think that history was written on a BANANA.

I'll tell ya Pete, you really don't know what you're talking about... really... but yet you come right back and spew another line of moronic obfuscating crap.

You notice how everyone else has dropped out of trying to talk to you in this thread?

Think about it... (you're not worth their time and effort.)

[Gunny]

agree to disagree, agnosticism is whether we can know, atheism is whether you believe. If anyone is 100% then they are an idiot. Nothing in life is certain. That is the definition of arrogance.There is no "agree to disagree". There is no riding the fence with a maybe in Judeo-Christianity. You either believe 100% or your soul will not be redeemed by God.

And just to be clear, Pete, I'm NOT trying to convert you. The above is a statement of fact in the Judeo-Christian religion. What people do or don't believe that doesn't affect my life doesn't bother me in the least. More room for MY condo in Heaven :laugh: If I can get past the duty hut, anyway.

The OP affects my life both religiously AND Constitutionally. That darn word again used only when convenient. As previously stated, the US Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Religious freedom is the basis of existence of the United States. People fleeing religious persecution in Europe. Someone obviously got the memo wrong because said immigrants just came here and set up their own religious intolerance. However, the Founding Fathers did not.

Further, the Constitution does not forbid religion in government. It forbids a government religion. Another result of the religious persecution and state religions of Europe. So the argument that "God" is offensive in government is as lame as all the idiots currently trying to erase US history by removing statues.

Don't like it? You are free to not look. Unless someone is trying to force you to believe in God or a specific religion, there's no validity to all the whining.

[aboutime]

<img src="http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/images/atheism.jpg" width="400" height="400">

[pete311]

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/images/atheism.jpg

Actually it's what you believe. Some magical god that came from nothing and poof, makes a whole universe out of nothing! And for no reason whatsoever. Makes perfect sense. How is that graphic not genesis?

At least I've got doubt and not throwing in with some fable bullshit from 2000 years ago. Makes perfect sense!

[aboutime]

Actually it's what you believe. Some magical god that came from nothing and poof, makes a whole universe out of nothing! And for no reason whatsoever. Makes perfect sense. How is that graphic not genesis?

At least I've got doubt and not throwing in with some fable bullshit from 2000 years ago. Makes perfect sense!


Glad to see you finally admit to being a slave to the fabled bullshit that causes you to insist...you must be an Atheist. In other words. You'd have no reason to identify as an Atheist IF....there wasn't something out there...YOU DENY. In order to be AGAINST something petey....there has to BE something. So...your deniability from the start is just stupid, ignorant, and not very well thought out.

[pete311]

Glad to see you finally admit to being a slave to the fabled bullshit that causes you to insist...you must be an Atheist. In other words. You'd have no reason to identify as an Atheist IF....there wasn't something out there...YOU DENY. In order to be AGAINST something petey....there has to BE something. So...your deniability from the start is just stupid, ignorant, and not very well thought out.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :lol::lol::lol:

[PostmodernProphet]

agree to disagree, agnosticism is whether we can know, atheism is whether you believe.
I can accept the fact you disagree with every dictionary in the world.......not sure why you want to though.....
agnostics say we cannot know. atheists say they do.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Cool, and I have a problem with faith? Where did I say that?

atheists have a problem with faith.......you said you were an atheist.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Stories without evidence is fiction.

there you go again.....you just got done saying you didn't have a problem with faith.....by definition, faith is belief in the absence of evidence......

[Black Diamond]

there you go again.....
Easy Gipper. Easy.

[PostmodernProphet]

this is why I consider atheists irrational......they contradict themselves and claim its logical......

[Gunny]

there you go again.....you just got done saying you didn't have a problem with faith.....by definition, faith is belief in the absence of evidence......Thart explains man-made climate change ...

[pete311]

I can accept the fact you disagree with every dictionary in the world.......not sure why you want to though.....
agnostics say we cannot know. atheists say they do.....

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist

I am wrong where?

[pete311]

atheists have a problem with faith.......you said you were an atheist.....

Where does it say "against faith"?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist

[pete311]

there you go again.....you just got done saying you didn't have a problem with faith.....by definition, faith is belief in the absence of evidence......

Calling it what it is, doesn't mean I have a problem with it.

[pete311]

this is why I consider atheists irrational......they contradict themselves and claim its logical......

A little less arrogance would make you look less foolish.

[aboutime]

A little less arrogance would make you look less foolish.


petey. Thanks for using your own words to describe yourself, just as most of us have wanted to say about you. But then...being a confused, sad, miserable Atheist in a world full of Believers full of Faith...must really hurt when you are lonely, and wondering why nobody really cares WHAT YOU THINK.

[pete311]

petey. Thanks for using your own words to describe yourself, just as most of us have wanted to say about you. But then...being a confused, sad, miserable Atheist in a world full of Believers full of Faith...must really hurt when you are lonely, and wondering why nobody really cares WHAT YOU THINK.

Why you so obsessed with me?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1Yt0xJKDY8

[Drummond]

A little less arrogance would make you look less foolish.

This is tiresome.

An atheist doesn't believe in God. It's a position which an atheist is committed to.

An agnostic veers towards non-belief, BUT, is NOT committed to that position. An agnostic can therefore - if proof were ever presented - have latitude to adopt a belief in God.

An atheist can do no such thing. Non-belief quantifies and confirms the very definition of atheist.

What's so very ludicrous, though, is that it's this very inflexibility which defines the difference between the two .. and taken, get this, to the extent of a FAITH in non-belief. It therefore follows that atheism is faith-driven.

Atheists can't see this truth, though. They can't see that faith in the so-called 'truth' of the nonexistence of God, even though the point hasn't actually been PROVEN to them, can't help but be based on faith rather than logic.

A logical mind is open to any form of reasoning which proves the truth or otherwise of perceived fact. An atheist, to be one, has to maintain a closed mind to any possibility of the existence of God - proven, provable, or not. Atheism is not logical .. it's too driven by sheer, blind belief to be logical.

If irremediably illogical, it's also irrational. It can't be otherwise.

[Drummond]

Actually it's what you believe. Some magical god that came from nothing and poof, makes a whole universe out of nothing! And for no reason whatsoever. Makes perfect sense. How is that graphic not genesis?

At least I've got doubt and not throwing in with some fable bullshit from 2000 years ago. Makes perfect sense!

How do you KNOW you're right, though .. ?

How do you presume to have a full grasp of any / all possible reason(s) for the universe's creation ? If the mind which created it is unimaginably greater than your own, possessing an intelligence beyond your ability to comprehend, how can you begin to come up with any conclusions as to why it did what it did ?

Face this fact. Though you'll happily try to ridicule the so-called irrationality of those who cling to their faith, YOU, Pete, are doing nothing different to that yourself. You have a faith that God doesn't exist. You cannot defend this faith, since you cannot prove to have a superior grasp upon the realities of our origin than those you'll happily oppose. You therefore don't KNOW you're right.

But, you'll believe you are, all the same.

That's because your faith is a blind one. Ultimately unreasoned, since you don't admit to the possibility of any superior reasoning from any other origin ....

[pete311]

This is tiresome.

An atheist doesn't believe in God. It's a position which an atheist is committed to.

An agnostic veers towards non-belief, BUT, is NOT committed to that position. An agnostic can therefore - if proof were ever presented - have latitude to adopt a belief in God.

An atheist can do no such thing. Non-belief quantifies and confirms the very definition of atheist.

What's so very ludicrous, though, is that it's this very inflexibility which defines the difference between the two .. and taken, get this, to the extent of a FAITH in non-belief. It therefore follows that atheism is faith-driven.

Atheists can't see this truth, though. They can't see that faith in the so-called 'truth' of the nonexistence of God, even though the point hasn't actually been PROVEN to them, can't help but be based on faith rather than logic.

A logical mind is open to any form of reasoning which proves the truth or otherwise of perceived fact. An atheist, to be one, has to maintain a closed mind to any possibility of the existence of God - proven, provable, or not. Atheism is not logical .. it's too driven by sheer, blind belief to be logical.

If irremediably illogical, it's also irrational. It can't be otherwise.

You need to reread the definitions instead of writing your own and injecting a lot of personal theory.

[pete311]

How do you KNOW you're right, though .. ?

How do you presume to have a full grasp of any / all possible reason(s) for the universe's creation ? If the mind which created it is unimaginably greater than your own, possessing an intelligence beyond your ability to comprehend, how can you begin to come up with any conclusions as to why it did what it did ?

Face this fact. Though you'll happily try to ridicule the so-called irrationality of those who cling to their faith, YOU, Pete, are doing nothing different to that yourself. You have a faith that God doesn't exist. You cannot defend this faith, since you cannot prove to have a superior grasp upon the realities of our origin than those you'll happily oppose. You therefore don't KNOW you're right.

But, you'll believe you are, all the same.

That's because your faith is a blind one. Ultimately unreasoned, since you don't admit to the possibility of any superior reasoning from any other origin ....

Strange that you don't ask this of other members since it applies to them as well. I never claimed to be right or know. I am just skeptical of any man made god. According to your words above, how is that an unreasonable stance? Zeus, Allah, Shiva or Odin all have the same likely hood of being God as the Christian God. Why choose one of the other? Time in history and upbringing.

[aboutime]

You need to reread the definitions instead of writing your own and injecting a lot of personal theory.

petey. You just exposed your hypocrisy again for all to see. But you really do mirror, and emulate the Liberal mode of insisting ONLY YOU and your so-called definitions are valid..while everyone else, with our own opinions, or personal theory HAVE TO BE WRONG.

Are you sure your parents know you were born full of hatred, and no brain?

[Drummond]

You need to reread the definitions instead of writing your own and injecting a lot of personal theory.

Nope.

By no stretch of the imagination can an agnostic be called a 'believer' in God. This defies the definition. All that's left is non-belief.

Agnosticism is quintessential non-belief. In God. In denying God. However, it does open the door for acceptance of proof, if any is perceived.

An atheist is a committed non-believer, though. There's no room for acceptance of God - any God - in atheism.

HOWEVER -- to be committed, immovably, to non-belief .. is to reject the possibility of a belief in God. An atheist has FAITH that no proof of God's existence will ever be perceivable as fact. An atheist is blind to so much as the possibility.

Immovable FAITH, in other words ... a defining characteristic of a devout believer in God ! So, Pete, if you stick to atheism, you're displaying devout faith in what you believe.

-- Thing is ... you ATTACK those who display faith in God. Your own strength of faith is absolutely NO DIFFERENT, even if its content is.

So, you want to find reasons to attack Christians ? Then, attack YOURSELF in displaying the same commitment (- myopic in nature ? -)to your own belief-system, too.

IF YOU DO NOT -- IT MAKES YOUR POSITION A TOTALLY HYPOCRITICAL ONE.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I am just skeptical of any man made god.
I doubt anyone here believes in a "man made God."

In fact, I've never heard a Christian claim that "man made God." In fact, I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it states "man made God." According to you, the first words in the Bible in Genesis should start right saying, "in the beginning, man made God."

You sure come up with some screwball shit.

[aboutime]

Somebody, please tell our lost member petey....he is the only one here who claims there is a MAN MADE GOD! That's nothing but a constantly repeated lie, similar to all the liberal lies told, and retold over and over again...until they are believed as fact.

[pete311]

Nope.

By no stretch of the imagination can an agnostic be called a 'believer' in God. This defies the definition. All that's left is non-belief.

Agnosticism is quintessential non-belief. In God. In denying God. However, it does open the door for acceptance of proof, if any is perceived.

An atheist is a committed non-believer, though. There's no room for acceptance of God - any God - in atheism.

HOWEVER -- to be committed, immovably, to non-belief .. is to reject the possibility of a belief in God. An atheist has FAITH that no proof of God's existence will ever be perceivable as fact. An atheist is blind to so much as the possibility.

Immovable FAITH, in other words ... a defining characteristic of a devout believer in God ! So, Pete, if you stick to atheism, you're displaying devout faith in what you believe.

-- Thing is ... you ATTACK those who display faith in God. Your own strength of faith is absolutely NO DIFFERENT, even if its content is.

So, you want to find reasons to attack Christians ? Then, attack YOURSELF in displaying the same commitment (- myopic in nature ? -)to your own belief-system, too.

IF YOU DO NOT -- IT MAKES YOUR POSITION A TOTALLY HYPOCRITICAL ONE.

You can believe in god but also believe we can know or can't know. They are not mutually exclusive.

[pete311]

I doubt anyone here believes in a "man made God."

In fact, I've never heard a Christian claim that "man made God." In fact, I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it states "man made God." According to you, the first words in the Bible in Genesis should start right saying, "in the beginning, man made God."

You sure come up with some screwball shit.

Man wrote the bible. Boom! Man made god.

[aboutime]

Man wrote the bible. Boom! Man made god.


Okay petey. Since you claim to be so smart. NAME the man who wrote the Bible. And tell us WHO invented the MAN MADE GOD!

[pete311]

Okay petey. Since you claim to be so smart. NAME the man who wrote the Bible. And tell us WHO invented the MAN MADE GOD!
https://www.biblica.com/resources/bible-faqs/who-wrote-the-bible/

[BoogyMan]

Atheists are not against beliefs. That is just ridiculous.

Every atheist I have ever spoken with mocks me for my faith while denying that their own belief that there is no deity is a faith in itself.

[aboutime]

https://www.biblica.com/resources/bible-faqs/who-wrote-the-bible/

Of course, for Christians, the Bible is more than just a human book. It is the authoritative, written Word of God. Through this ancient collection of books, God speaks into our world, revealing who he is and how he’s at work—then and now—repairing all that is broken. God did not simply give dictation to the human authors of Scripture; their contribution is real.
Thank you petey. As the Atheist you claim to be. You are proving how totally uninformed you actually are for us. The people (Men) who wrote the Bible, did so for a purpose. And you will still deny it, even after reading how Those Men from the past needed, and wanted to PASS ON the Word of GOD. You know? They God You Insist Doesn't Exist...as made up by Man.

If you have a place to go, and bury your hypocritical head petey....now would be the optimum time to just FADE AWAY, and stop making a fool of yourself, again, and again.

You are so anxious to prove something you cannot prove. You will perpetually fail.

[pete311]

Every atheist I have ever spoken with mocks me for my faith while denying that their own belief that there is no deity is a faith in itself.
Need to find better friends

[pete311]

Of course, for Christians, the Bible is more than just a human book. It is the authoritative, written Word of God. Through this ancient collection of books, God speaks into our world, revealing who he is and how he’s at work—then and now—repairing all that is broken. God did not simply give dictation to the human authors of Scripture; their contribution is real.
Thank you petey. As the Atheist you claim to be. You are proving how totally uninformed you actually are for us. The people (Men) who wrote the Bible, did so for a purpose. And you will still deny it, even after reading how Those Men from the past needed, and wanted to PASS ON the Word of GOD. You know? They God You Insist Doesn't Exist...as made up by Man.

If you have a place to go, and bury your hypocritical head petey....now would be the optimum time to just FADE AWAY, and stop making a fool of yourself, again, and again.

You are so anxious to prove something you cannot prove. You will perpetually fail.

The men that wrote the bible did so decades and even centuries after christ. It's not the written word of god. You put a lot of trust in goat herders 2000 years ago and then the thousands of people/churches that edited, translated and canonized it.

[aboutime]

The men that wrote the bible did so decades and even centuries after christ. It's not the written word of god. You put a lot of trust in goat herders 2000 years ago and then the thousands of people/churches that edited, translated and canonized it.


So petey. Tell us who wrote the book you follow on Atheism? As for goat herders. We can't help what your sexual preferences might be...bragging about all of the conquests you, and other liberal misfits could have...like the 72 virgins with 4 legs.
<img src="https://roguejew.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/image_goats.jpg">

[pete311]

So petey. Tell us who wrote the book you follow on Atheism? As for goat herders. We can't help what your sexual preferences might be...bragging about all of the conquests you, and other liberal misfits could have...like the 72 virgins with 4 legs.
https://roguejew.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/image_goats.jpg

I don't think you understand Atheism. You understand it's not a religion right?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Man wrote the bible. Boom! Man made god.
I don't see any "boom" there. All I see is you thinking you're sneaky.

"MAN" wrote every word there is in every book on the planet, and that includes ALL history, so using your retarded little spin on men writing things, that would mean ALL our history is MADE UP.

Sorry, but your little game here is stupid and infantile.

[darin]

Man wrote the bible. Boom! Man made god.

uh...God - even the Jewish God - existed WELL Before the bible. Please do a modicum of research if you want to convince folks you're smart. Judaism as a faith predates the bible by thousands of years.

[PostmodernProphet]

You can believe in god but also believe we can know or can't know. They are not mutually exclusive.
agreed.....every Christian would say they believe in God but realize that we can't prove Him to anyone......


https://www.biblica.com/resources/bible-faqs/who-wrote-the-bible/

from your link....

Of course, for Christians, the Bible is more than just a human book. It is the authoritative, written Word of God. Through this ancient collection of books, God speaks into our world, revealing who he is and how he’s at work—then and now—repairing all that is broken. God did not simply give dictation to the human authors of Scripture; their contribution is real. Their personalities, perspectives, and writing styles are all discernable in the text—as are the unique situations and circumstances of those to whom they were writing. Yet God’s universal message is present from Genesis to Revelation.

so your argument is that man made God and then God revealed himself to man?.....


I don't think you understand Atheism. You understand it's not a religion right?
atheists tell themselves that all the time.......it makes them feel less like the idiots they really are......

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Pete, Christianity is having faith in God the Father and Christ his Son...
Atheism is having faith that there is no god. Which is the other side of the coin.
Atheists love to say that man can not prove God exists- while they ignore the fact that they can nt prove God does not exist!
Yet many Atheists believe that there is other Life in the Universe , without any proof.
You are free to ignore these points I make and the reality that Atheism is a belief system--same is is Christianity or any other recognized religion.
True Atheist act on faith- because to date nobody has ever proved there is no God and many HAVE TRIED.

Also there is the fact, that many lifelong Atheists recant when on their deathbed.--Tyr




http://www.nairaland.com/746723/famous-atheists-last-words-before

Re: Famous Atheists Last Words Before Dying by Nobody: 10:54pm On Aug 28, 2011
Caesar Borgia: "While I lived, I provided for everything but death; now I must die, and am unprepared to die."

Thomas Hobbs political philosopher "I say again, if I had the whole world at my disposal, I would give it to live one day. I am about to take a leap into the dark."

Thomas Payne [/b]the leading atheistic writer in American colonies: "Stay with me, for God's sake; I cannot bear to be left alone , O Lord, help me! O God, what have I done to suffer so much? What will become of me hereafter? "I would give worlds if I had them, that The Age of Reason had never been published. 0 Lord, help me! Christ, help me! …No, don't leave; stay with me! Send even a child to stay with me; for I am on the edge of Hell here alone. If ever the Devil had an agent, I have been that one."

Sir Thomas Scott, Chancellor of England "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know and feel that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."

Voltaire famous anti-christian atheist: "I am abandoned by God and man; I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months' life." (He said this to Dr. Fochin, who told him it could not be done.) "Then I shall die and go to hell!" (His nurse said: "For all the money in Europe I wouldn’t want to see another unbeliever die! All night long he cried for forgiveness."wink

Robert Ingersoll: "O God, if there be a God, save my soul, if I have a soul!" (Some say it was this way: "Oh God, if there be a God, save my soul if I have a soul, from hell, if there be a hell!"wink

David Hume, atheist philosopher famous for his philosophy of empiricism and skepticism of religion, he cried loud on his death bed "I am in flames!" It is said his "desperation was a horrible scene".

Napoleon Bonaparte, the French emperor, and who, like Adolf Hitler, brought death to millions to satisfy his greedy, power-mad, selfish ambitions for world conquest: "I die before my time, and my body will be given back to the earth. Such is the fate of him who has been called the great Napoleon. What an abyss between my deep misery and the eternal kingdom of Christ!”

Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! …Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GHhtTqtTTo

Charles IX was the French king who urged on by his mother, gave the order for the massacre of the French Huguenots, in which 15,000 souls were slaughtered in Paris alone and 100,000 in other sections of France, for no other reason than that they loved Christ. The guilty king suffered miserably for years after that event. He finally died, bathed in blood bursting from his veins. To his physicians he said in his last hours: "Asleep or awake, I see the mangled forms of the Huguenots passing before me. They drop with blood. They point at their open wounds. Oh! That I had spared at least the little infants at the bosom! What blood! I know not where I am. How will all this end? What shall I do? I am lost forever! I know it. Oh, I have done wrong."

David Strauss, leading representative of German rationalism, after spending a lifetime erasing belief in God from the minds of others: "My philosophy leaves me utterly forlorn! I feel like one caught in the merciless jaws of an automatic machine, not knowing at what time one of its great hammers may crush me!"

In a Newsweek interview with Svetlana Stalin, the daughter of Josef Stalin, she told of her father's death: "My father died a difficult and terrible death. . God grants an easy death only to the just. . At what seemed the very last moment he suddenly opened his eyes and cast a glance over everyone in the room. It was a terrible glance, insane or perhaps angry. . His left hand was raised, as though he were pointing to something above and bringing down a curse on us all. The gesture was full of menace. . The next moment he was dead."

Anton LeVey author of the Satanic Bible and high priest of the religion dedicated to the worship of Satan. Some of his famous quotes are “There is a beast in man that needs to be exercised, not exorcised”. His dying words were "Oh my, oh my, what have I done, there is something very wrong…there is something very wrong….”
Re: Famous Atheists Last Words Before Dying by mazaje(m): 11:14pm On Aug 28, 2011

frosbel:

Caesar Borgia: "While I lived, I provided for everything but death; now I must die, and am unprepared to die."

Thomas Hobbs political philosopher "I say again, if I had the whole world at my disposal, I would give it to live one day. I am about to take a leap into the dark."

Thomas Payne the leading atheistic writer in American colonies: "Stay with me, for God's sake; I cannot bear to be left alone , O Lord, help me! O God, what have I done to suffer so much? What will become of me hereafter? "I would give worlds if I had them, that The Age of Reason had never been published. 0 Lord, help me! Christ, help me! …No, don't leave; stay with me! Send even a child to stay with me; for I am on the edge of Hell here alone. If ever the Devil had an agent, I have been that one."

[b]Sir Thomas Scott, Chancellor of England "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know and feel that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."

Voltaire famous anti-christian atheist: "I am abandoned by God and man; I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months' life." (He said this to Dr. Fochin, who told him it could not be done.) "Then I shall die and go to hell!" (His nurse said: "For all the money in Europe I wouldn’t want to see another unbeliever die! All night long he cried for forgiveness."wink

Robert Ingersoll: "O God, if there be a God, save my soul, if I have a soul!" (Some say it was this way: "Oh God, if there be a God, save my soul if I have a soul, from hell, if there be a hell!"wink

David Hume, atheist philosopher famous for his philosophy of empiricism and skepticism of religion, he cried loud on his death bed "I am in flames!" It is said his "desperation was a horrible scene".

Napoleon Bonaparte, the French emperor, and who, like Adolf Hitler, brought death to millions to satisfy his greedy, power-mad, selfish ambitions for world conquest: "I die before my time, and my body will be given back to the earth. Such is the fate of him who has been called the great Napoleon. What an abyss between my deep misery and the eternal kingdom of Christ!”

Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English Atheist club to those gathered around his deathbed: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell! …Oh, that I could lie for a thousand years upon the fire that is never quenched, to purchase the favor of God and be united to Him again. But it is a fruitless wish. Millions and millions of years will bring me no nearer the end of my torments than one poor hour. Oh, eternity, eternity forever and forever!, Oh, the insufferable pangs of Hell!”

[pete311]

I don't see any "boom" there. All I see is you thinking you're sneaky.

"MAN" wrote every word there is in every book on the planet, and that includes ALL history, so using your retarded little spin on men writing things, that would mean ALL our history is MADE UP.

Sorry, but your little game here is stupid and infantile.

I told you already to research what the standards for historical accuracy are.


uh...God - even the Jewish God - existed WELL Before the bible. Please do a modicum of research if you want to convince folks you're smart. Judaism as a faith predates the bible by thousands of years.

That makes a difference how? Men still created Judaism. All the customs, all the writings.


atheists tell themselves that all the time.......it makes them feel less like the idiots they really are......

how christian of you


from your link....


so your argument is that man made God and then God revealed himself to man?.....

God revealed himself to me last night. He has 3 tentacles coming out of his face, had purple hair and he spoke arabic. Do you believe me? Let me write it down. Wait 2000 years. Then read it.


Pete, Christianity is having faith in God the Father and Christ his Son...
Atheism is having faith that there is no god. Which is the other side of the coin.
Atheists love to say that man can not prove God exists- while they ignore the fact that they can nt prove God does not exist!
Yet many Atheists believe that there is other Life in the Universe , without any proof.
You are free to ignore these points I make and the reality that Atheism is a belief system--same is is Christianity or any other recognized religion.
True Atheist act on faith- because to date nobody has ever proved there is no God and many HAVE TRIED.

Also there is the fact, that many lifelong Atheists recant when on their deathbed.--Tyr

There are more gods than the christian god, but why did you pick the christian god? And btw, you are mixing up Atheism and agnosticism. One is belief and the other is ability to know. I don't believe in the christian god because I also don't believe in zeus yet I can't prove zeus doesn't exist. Should I believe in zeus now too?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There are more gods than the christian god, but why did you pick the christian god? And btw, you are mixing up Atheism and agnosticism. One is belief and the other is ability to know. I don't believe in the christian god because I also don't believe in zeus yet I can't prove zeus doesn't exist. Should I believe in zeus now too?

Really??? "ability to know".. Know what Pete?
You clearly postulate --to know that God is not real. Yet you do so with no proof--and that is called faith.
Stop trying to muddy the waters .
I do not and did not ask you to believe. I did point out that your stated stand exists because of the "faith" in there being no God, that you have--yet you when called on having that faith with no proof, try to muddy the waters and pull a Clinton-- in his define the meaning of -"is"- crap.
Your Atheism , you admitted and it is clearly having faith that God does not exist.
Yet you can not prove he does not exist. Thus whether you like it or not you have faith in a personal religious doctrine- that of there being no God..
Logic, truth and intelligence exposes your errors and your weak denials as well .-Tyr

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I told you already to research what the standards for historical accuracy are.

OK, so it's your contention that all written history is a lie... got it ................ :lol: .............. :lame2:

[pete311]

Really??? "ability to know".. Know what Pete?
You clearly postulate --to know that God is not real. Yet you do so with no proof--and that is called faith.
Stop trying to muddy the waters .
I do not and did not ask you to believe. I did point out that your stated stand exists because of the "faith" in there being no God, that you have--yet you when called on having that faith with no proof, try to muddy the waters and pull a Clinton-- in his define the meaning of -"is"- crap.
Your Atheism , you admitted and it is clearly having faith that God does not exist.
Yet you can not prove he does not exist. Thus whether you like it or not you have faith in a personal religious doctrine- that of there being no God..
Logic, truth and intelligence exposes your errors and your weak denials as well .-Tyr

I do not claim to know a superior being does not exist. I leave room for that. I don't believe in man made gods and live as if there is no god, but I can imagine and accept the notion of a superior being but none tied to a religion.

[pete311]

OK, so it's your contention that all written history is a lie... got it ................ :lol: .............. :lame2:

Amazingly I get more out of debating aboutme and gunny than you and they mostly just insult me.

[Abbey Marie]

Our Texas church killer had atheist links all over his social media pages...

[pete311]

Our Texas church killer had atheist links all over his social media pages...
And Timothy McVeigh was a christian so.... stop baiting, I thought you were better than that

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Amazingly I get more out of debating aboutme and gunny than you and they mostly just insult me.
That's because I already know ahead of time that you're just going to respond with the same old crap. There's no reason to put any effort into a reply to you.

You're a one trick pony, and your one trick is pathetic.

[darin]

That makes a difference how? Men still created Judaism. All the customs, all the writings.




It makes a difference because it shows your argument "Because man wrote the bible, man invented god" is silly. You should say "good point - I didn't mean specifically man created god AFTER the bible was canonized, what I meant was all talk of God was created from the mind of man - whether via oral or written records."


Then I would point out the scientific and philosophic and maybe biological evidence pointing towards God. Then you'd shut-down and build strawmen and go off-topic because you can't answer to that evidence. Because it scares you a little bit.

[pete311]

That's because I already know ahead of time that you're just going to respond with the same old crap. There's no reason to put any effort into a reply to you.

You're a one trick pony, and your one trick is pathetic.

Please put even less effort in and don't reply to me


It makes a difference because it shows your argument "Because man wrote the bible, man invented god" is silly. You should say "good point - I didn't mean specifically man created god AFTER the bible was canonized, what I meant was all talk of God was created from the mind of man - whether via oral or written records."


Then I would point out the scientific and philosophic and maybe biological evidence pointing towards God.

What do you know of god before the bible was written?

I am interested in your evidence. Remember, philosophy is not evidence, and the "lack of understanding" does not equate to "then it must be god".

[darin]

And Timothy McVeigh was a christian so.... stop baiting, I thought you were better than that

You are lying or ignorant


McVeigh was born Catholic but drifted away from the faith. He told Time magazine in 1996 that he believed in a deity but had “lost touch with the religion” of his birth. He did “maintain core beliefs,” but declined in the interview to spell those beliefs out.

He became a little bit more specific before his execution in 2001. We might call him spiritual but not religious. He claimed to be agnostic but not an atheist. McVeigh believed in “science” and not “religion,” he said. (In fact, he said his religion was science.) His murky metaphysical notions included some sort of Deistic creator who set things in motion, not the personal God of Christianity. (http://www.patheos.com/resources/additional-resources/2010/10/timothy-mcveigh-was-not-a-christian-terrorist)

[pete311]

You are lying or ignorant

Before his execution he had Last Rites performed by a priest.

[darin]

Before his execution he had Last Rites performed by a priest.

Why does that matter? What matters - to your point - is his beliefs (that may have affected his behaviour). The actions of a man facing his execution have no bearing to who he was. To his 'livelong faith'.

Do you consider Ted Bundy a Christian? Afterall, upon confinement he 'converted'.

It's dishonest for you to claim McVey "was a christian" because the evidence and his own words tell a different story about his faith at/during/around the time of his terrorism. If the texas church shooter was a practicing militant atheist at war with Religion it DOES have bearing on this story. IF that is the case.

You're smarter than this Pete.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Please put even less effort in and don't reply to me.
So you can dish out your snide, ignorant little comments, but you don't like someone doing it to you.

Put me on ignore, I couldn't care less.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

You're smarter than this Pete.
You sure about that?

If he is, then he's dishonest as you pointed out, which is what I know damn well is the case. He's playing his little leftist game.

[pete311]

Why does that matter? What matters - to your point - is his beliefs (that may have affected his behaviour). The actions of a man facing his execution have no bearing to who he was. To his 'livelong faith'.

Do you consider Ted Bundy a Christian? Afterall, upon confinement he 'converted'.

It's dishonest for you to claim McVey "was a christian" because the evidence and his own words tell a different story about his faith at/during/around the time of his terrorism. If the texas church shooter was a practicing militant atheist at war with Religion it DOES have bearing on this story. IF that is the case.

You're smarter than this Pete.

If the beginning of someone's life is religious and the end. Then I would suspect it never really left him. However it's speculation and I'm not interested in debating the speculation. In the end I just detest abbey's baiting trying to connect the shooters atheism to his behavior. I am atheist and non violent, even after being shot at myself. So there.

[darin]

You sure about that?

If he is, then he's dishonest as you pointed out, which is what I know damn well is the case. He's playing his little leftist game.

He's smart. But he's backed into a wall in 90% of his posts. When people disagree they tend to approach with both barrels first. They attack the man. I think his arguments are silly enough to attack - would never want to go straight at the core of his character. I've done that to him before - and apologized publicly - so I get it. But it doesn't HAVE to be such contentious debate.

[pete311]

So you can dish out your snide, ignorant little comments, but you don't like someone doing it to you.

You're a typical liberal ass hat.

Put me on ignore, I couldn't care less.

Maybe you want to study darin's posts. We disagree on just about everything, but his replies imply he engages his brain. Which I respect and appreciate. Yours do not and boil down to kindergarten bully drivel.

[darin]

If the beginning of someone's life is religious and the end. Then I would suspect it never really left him. However it's speculation and I'm not interested in debating the speculation. In the end I just detest abbey's baiting trying to connect the shooters atheism to his behavior. I am atheist and non violent, even after being shot at myself. So there.

Your speculation is to drive home a point. Your speculation is geared to affirming your preconceived ideas; you PREFER him to be "A christian" so evidence from his own mouth wouldn't be enough to convince you otherwise. If you were seriously wanting to debate the issue maybe your reply might have been "Got it, Abbey - guy seems to be an Atheist. Honestly, in my mind the depravity of man probably POINTS me towards God not existing because I can't believe this Loving God would create the potential for such evil"

or some shit like that.

But instead you threw out a wild accusation of McVey. And I've just shown you and the internets how wrong it was to assume McVey's faith - especially when McVey claimed otherwise.

[pete311]

Your speculation is to drive home a point. Your speculation is geared to affirming your preconceived ideas; you PREFER him to be "A christian" so evidence from his own mouth wouldn't be enough to convince you otherwise. If you were seriously wanting to debate the issue maybe your reply might have been "Got it, Abbey - guy seems to be an Atheist. Honestly, in my mind the depravity of man probably POINTS me towards God not existing because I can't believe this Loving God would create the potential for such evil"

or some shit like that.

But instead you threw out a wild accusation of McVey. And I've just shown you and the internets how wrong it was to assume McVey's faith - especially when McVey claimed otherwise.

It's far from wild, but I'm not interested in this side debate, so I'll concede so we can move on.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Maybe you want to study darin's posts. We disagree on just about everything, but his replies imply he engages his brain. Which I respect and appreciate. Yours do not and boil down to kindergarten bully drivel.
You've insulted me and my intelligence enough times now that you should have learned, I give what I get.

You don't want me treating you like an ignorant little shit, don't act like one and don't insult me, it's as simple as that. I'll debate politely with anyone that does so with me, try it.

You have made STUPID arguments here, and you circle back to them as if they were end all, be all, genius, but in reality it's infantile and ignorant, so it doesn't deserve anything more than a retort of the same caliber.

And your BULLY comment is pure horse crap. I've not been any more rude or insulting to you than you have been to ME, so you're guilty of hypocrisy there, big time. All you're really doing is proving that Darin is right, you're backed into a corner and now you're thin skin is showing.

[pete311]

You've insulted me and my intelligence enough times now that you should have learned, I give what I get.

You don't want me treating you like an ignorant little shit, don't act like one and don't insult me, it's as simple as that. I'll debate politely with anyone that does so with me, try it.

You have made STUPID arguments here, and you circle back to them as if they were end all, be all, genius, but in reality it's infantile and ignorant, so it doesn't deserve anything more than a retort of the same caliber.

Great, are we done now?

[darin]

It's far from wild, but I'm not interested in this side debate, so I'll concede so we can move on.

Admit it - you kind of like when I make your points for you...even if the point is ultimately proven silly by....me.


you're welcome.

[NightTrain]

You guys are wasting your time. Valiant efforts, but doomed to fail because he's got all the answers.

Petey is as fanatical about his atheism as he is with Global Warming.


If hes lucky, he'll be able repent on his deathbed and he's got a lot of pretty harsh things he's spewed toward the Almighty to own up to.

If not, well... that'll suck and he'll have all eternity to reflect on how he lived his brief life.

[pete311]

You guys are wasting your time. Valiant efforts, but doomed to fail because he's got all the answers.

Petey is as fanatical about his atheism as he is with Global Warming.


If hes lucky, he'll be able repent on his deathbed and he's got a lot of pretty harsh things he's spewed toward the Almighty to own up to.

If not, well... that'll suck and he'll have all eternity to reflect on how he lived his brief life.

Now you sound like you have all the answers. I have repeatedly said I have doubt and leave room for high powers. You guys are the 100% christian faith people. Who's the fanatic?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

You guys are wasting your time. Valiant efforts, but doomed to fail because he's got all the answers.

Petey is as fanatical about his atheism as he is with Global Warming.


If hes lucky, he'll be able repent on his deathbed and he's got a lot of pretty harsh things he's spewed toward the Almighty to own up to.

If not, well... that'll suck and he'll have all eternity to reflect on how he lived his brief life.
He'll call you a bully next...

[NightTrain]

Now you sound like you have all the answers. I have repeatedly said I have doubt and leave room for high powers. You guys are the 100% christian faith people. Who's the fanatic?


I don't have all the answers, Petey. The Bible does.

Do yourself a YUGE favor and read it.

[pete311]

I don't have all the answers, Petey. The Bible does.

Do yourself a YUGE favor and read it.

I don't think a collection of goat herders 2000 years ago had all the answers.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I don't think a collection of goat herders 2000 years ago had all the answers.
And you wonder why I wasn't taking you serious... get a clue.

[pete311]

And you wonder why I wasn't taking you serious... get a clue.

stop trolling me

[High_Plains_Drifter]

stop trolling me
Unless you haven't noticed, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, and whatever you say can and will be responded to by anyone on the forum. You say stupid things like your prior comment, you better EXPECT that someone is going to respond to it, ANYONE, and that includes ME.

So either get used to it or go pound sand.

[pete311]

Unless you haven't noticed, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, and whatever you say can and will be responded to by anyone on the forum. You say stupid things like your prior comment, you better EXPECT that someone is going to respond to it, ANYONE, and that includes ME.

So either get used to it or go pound sand.

Yes it is a discussion forum, so please start discussing.

[NightTrain]

I don't think a collection of goat herders 2000 years ago had all the answers.


Hey, whatever you say, Ace.

Eternity is a real long time, and you'll have plenty of time to consider everything.

I suppose pondering just your remark above will take thousands of millennia.

Good luck with that.

[pete311]

Hey, whatever you say, Ace.

Eternity is a real long time, and you'll have plenty of time to consider everything.

I suppose pondering just your remark above will take thousands of millennia.

Good luck with that.

Good luck to you too! I wish everyone the best afterlife. You with Christ. Me with Zeus. I'll wave to you from across the border.

[NightTrain]

Good luck to you too! I wish everyone the best afterlife. You with Christ. Me with Zeus. I'll wave to you from across the border.


Yeah, somehow I think you're going to be a tad disappointed.

The good news is that you'll only have yourself to blame.

Cheers!

[pete311]

Yeah, somehow I think you're going to be a tad disappointed.

The good news is that you'll only have yourself to blame.

Cheers!

Yes of course, your god punishes a trivial 80 or so years of rational skepticism with eternal damnation. Seems reasonable to me.

[NightTrain]

Yes of course, your god punishes a trivial 80 or so years of rational skepticism with eternal damnation. Seems reasonable to me.


Yes.

How's your ticker doing?

[pete311]

Yes.

How's your ticker doing?

Who knows, could drop any second.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I don't think a collection of goat herders 2000 years ago had all the answers.
I have been discussing with you, just like your comment above --- ^^^---, but you seem to think you're the only one that's allowed to do that.

It's looking to me like ALL you leftist love your double standards, and have very thin skin.

[Abbey Marie]

If the beginning of someone's life is religious and the end. Then I would suspect it never really left him. However it's speculation and I'm not interested in debating the speculation. In the end I just detest abbey's baiting trying to connect the shooters atheism to his behavior. I am atheist and non violent, even after being shot at myself. So there.

I wasn’t baiting. You felt trapped so you perceived it that way. This guy apparently immersed himself in Atheism in recent times. He shot innocent people, even children, worshipping God. I will grant you this- Atheistic “beliefs” alone would not necessarily cause such sick behavior. The influence of Satan is a very possible primary cause.
One might also posit that his mental illness led him to Atheism. It is after all, an illogical set of beliefs.
The good news is, God loves you, Pete.

[pete311]

I wasn’t baiting. You felt trapped so you perceived it that way. This guy apparently immersed himself in Atheism in recent times. He shot innocent people, even children, worshipping God. I will grant you this- Atheistic “beliefs” alone would not necessarily cause such sick behavior. The influence of Satan is a very possible primary cause.
One might also posit that his mental illness led him to Atheism. It is after all, an illogical set of beliefs.
The good news is, God loves you, Pete.

And trusting 2000 year old goat herders is logical? He was also a military man. Maybe the military experience had something to do with this. Sounds just as valid as his atheist views. btw, motive has already been declared domestic. So you can stop now.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

And trusting 2000 year old goat herders is logical? He was also a military man. Maybe the military experience had something to do with this. Sounds just as valid as his atheist views. btw, motive has already been declared domestic. So you can stop now.
Declared by WHO?

Not so fast, kemosabe...

EXCLUSIVE: 'Creepy, crazy and weird': Former classmates say Texas gunman was an 'outcast' who 'preached his atheism' online before killing 26 in the state’s worst ever mass shooting

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5053013/Devin-Kelley-outcast-preached-atheism.html#ixzz4xg2LTqnb
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=MailOnline) | DailyMail on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail)

And as far as this POS being a "military man," obviously he wasn't very good at that because he was DISHONORABLY DISCHARGED and reduced in rank. He was a mentally ill outcast, and probably sounded a lot like YOU preaching his atheism and INSULTING Christianity.

[pete311]

Declared by WHO?

Not so fast, kemosabe...

EXCLUSIVE: 'Creepy, crazy and weird': Former classmates say Texas gunman was an 'outcast' who 'preached his atheism' online before killing 26 in the state’s worst ever mass shooting

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5053013/Devin-Kelley-outcast-preached-atheism.html#ixzz4xg2LTqnb
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=MailOnline) | DailyMail on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail)

And as far as this POS being a "military man," obviously he wasn't very good at that because he was DISHONORABLY DISCHARGED and reduced in rank. He was a mentally ill outcast, and probably sounded a lot like YOU preaching his atheism and INSULTING Christianity.

Preaching atheism is not a motive. It's already been revealed he was targeting his mother in law.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Preaching atheism is not a motive. It's already been revealed he was targeting his mother in law.
If you're a nut case atheist and have a hard on to kill yourself some Christians, that most certainly is a motive.

If he wanted to kill his mother in law he could have done it without killing 24 other people, so that theory is a farce.

[pete311]

If you're a nut case atheist and have a hard on to kill yourself some Christians, that most certainly is a motive.

If he wanted to kill his mother in law he could have done it without killing 24 other people, so that theory is a farce.

You're just completely making things up

[High_Plains_Drifter]

You're just completely making things up
Not surprising that's what you think of logic.

[BoogyMan]

Need to find better friends

Just need to stop talking to atheists.

[aboutime]

Preaching atheism is not a motive. It's already been revealed he was targeting his mother in law.

petey....do you know how funny you sound? Here you are, DEFENDING a mass murderer, and making excuses to distract attention from your devotion to Atheism???

Wanna try another tactic?

[darin]

petey....do you know how funny you sound? Here you are, DEFENDING a mass murderer, and making excuses to distract attention from your devotion to Atheism???

Wanna try another tactic?

point of order - he's defending atheism and it's relation to these events. Pete never condoned or defended the asshole shooter.

[PostmodernProphet]

how christian of you


wait, did you think God wants us to treat you nice.......lol....we're supposed to turn our cheek to OUR enemies, not HIS......


And Timothy McVeigh was a christian so....
????.....no he wasn't.....


If the beginning of someone's life is religious and the end. Then I would suspect it never really left him. However it's speculation and I'm not interested in debating the speculation. In the end I just detest abbey's baiting trying to connect the shooters atheism to his behavior. I am atheist and non violent, even after being shot at myself. So there.
so on one hand we have your suspicions, on the other hand we have the specific statements of the person involved.......if nothing else that should prove the value of your suspicions......


It's far from wild
perhaps.....but it's welded to stupid.....


Now you sound like you have all the answers. I have repeatedly said I have doubt and leave room for high powers. You guys are the 100% christian faith people. Who's the fanatic?
the question remains, why call yourself an atheist if you aren't?..........atheists don't "leave room for high powers"........I am 100% a Christian faith person......you are apparently confused.......I don't consider myself or any other Christian a fanatic.......I don't consider you a fanatic.......I still consider you irrational, whether you are actually an atheist or not.......


Yes it is a discussion forum, so please start discussing.

and the subject of the thread is atheism.......isn't that what we are discussing?.....


Good luck to you too! I wish everyone the best afterlife. You with Christ. Me with Zeus. I'll wave to you from across the border.
the rich man tried that with Lazarus......


Yes of course, your god punishes a trivial 80 or so years of rational skepticism with eternal damnation. Seems reasonable to me.

??.....he doesn't punish you at all......he just leaves you to the consequence of the choice you are freely making.......


And trusting 2000 year old goat herders is logical?
it's your choice whether to believe its 2000 year old goat herders instead of God.......and no, I don't consider that logical.......particularly since we know most of them were fishermen, not goat herders.......


You're just completely making things up

I don't think saying he could have killed his mother in law without killing 27 other people is making things up.......

[pete311]

??.....he doesn't punish you at all......he just leaves you to the consequence of the choice you are freely making.......


Is it my free will? I did not choose my genetics, I did not choose how I was raised, I did not choose many of the experiences I've had. I did not choose where I was born. My life has directed me to skepticism. Now if god wants me to say I believe in him just to appease him, well, I don't think he's that foolish if real. So I guess, like much of the earth, I am damned from birth. But I guess that is why ya'll go on missions to save ppl. Sucks for those you don't reach. Guess it was their free will. Sucks if you get a shitty missionary who is not convincing. Guess it's my free will that makes me less gullible and hard to convince.

[darin]

Is it my free will? I did not choose my genetics, I did not choose how I was raised, I did not choose many of the experiences I've had. I did not choose where I was born. My life has directed me to skepticism. Now if god wants me to say I believe in him just to appease him, well, I don't think he's that foolish if real. So I guess, like much of the earth, I am damned from birth. But I guess that is why ya'll go on missions to save ppl. Sucks for those you don't reach. Guess it was their free will. Sucks if you get a shitty missionary who is not convincing. Guess it's my free will that makes me less gullible and hard to convince.

Kinda funny how your free will brings to you post messages to invisible people on some higher-plane-type network; just assuming they are real. The faith that you're engaging people, real people, without much evidence of their existence.

Couple things are you betraying with that post - whether its your intent or not - first, it feels like you are actually MAD that god would damn millions/billions to eternal punishment. And rightly so, if that were the case; but that reply carries with it the flavour of somebody lashing out more than somebody talking about the existence of a creator.


And then I wonder why you associate GOD/Creator, etc, with Christianity and the lessons some Christians teach about the nature of God. I think somebody prone to intellect would dis-associate the existence of God with the existence of man-made religion, and talk God's existence outside of religion in part because If god exists, he DOES IN FACT exist in the physical world - the world of science and shit.

[Abbey Marie]

Is it my free will? I did not choose my genetics, I did not choose how I was raised, I did not choose many of the experiences I've had. I did not choose where I was born. My life has directed me to skepticism. Now if god wants me to say I believe in him just to appease him, well, I don't think he's that foolish if real. So I guess, like much of the earth, I am damned from birth. But I guess that is why ya'll go on missions to save ppl. Sucks for those you don't reach. Guess it was their free will. Sucks if you get a shitty missionary who is not convincing. Guess it's my free will that makes me less gullible and hard to convince.

2Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[darin]

2Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

...and some passages suggest all WILL come to repentance :)

[pete311]

Kinda funny how your free will brings to you post messages to invisible people on some higher-plane-type network; just assuming they are real. The faith that you're engaging people, real people, without much evidence of their existence.

Almost clever, but not there. I know how computers work and we don't have AI yet that passes the turing test.



Couple things are you betraying with that post - whether its your intent or not - first, it feels like you are actually MAD that god would damn millions/billions to eternal punishment. And rightly so, if that were the case; but that reply carries with it the flavour of somebody lashing out more than somebody talking about the existence of a creator.

Because nothing is black and white. I was actually a church goer in a Pentecostal church for years until about high school where my mind started to open and questions rose up. I left the church after meeting with a pastor who told me I was damned to hell because of my doubt. I was like "peace, I'm out". I want nothing of your god if that is his bullshit.



And then I wonder why you associate GOD/Creator, etc, with Christianity and the lessons some Christians teach about the nature of God. I think somebody prone to intellect would dis-associate the existence of God with the existence of man-made religion, and talk God's existence outside of religion in part because If god exists, he DOES IN FACT exist in the physical world - the world of science and shit.

Simply because I'm in a community here full of christians. If it were a muslim or hindu community I'd invoke their faiths. I am more against religion because it is man made ritual and power. As I've said many times in this thread, I am open to a higher power, but it is not one from our religions.

[pete311]

2Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

yeah honestly I have no idea what that means. If your god wants me to follow him, he needs to not speak in riddles and old dense language. Apparently he made me dumb, so it's his fault I can't understand his lessons.

[Black Diamond]

Almost clever, but not there. I know how computers work and we don't have AI yet that passes the turing test.



Because nothing is black and white. I was actually a church goer in a Pentecostal church for years until about high school where my mind started to open and questions rose up. I left the church after meeting with a pastor who told me I was damned to hell because of my doubt. I was like "peace, I'm out". I want nothing of your god if that is his bullshit.



Simply because I'm in a community here full of christians. If it were a muslim or hindu community I'd invoke their faiths. I am more against religion because it is man made ritual and power. As I've said many times in this thread, I am open to a higher power, but it is not one from our religions.
Jesus was against rituals and defied them. That's why they killed him.

[darin]

Almost clever, but not there. I know how computers work and we don't have AI yet that passes the turing test.



Because nothing is black and white. I was actually a church goer in a Pentecostal church for years until about high school where my mind started to open and questions rose up. I left the church after meeting with a pastor who told me I was damned to hell because of my doubt. I was like "peace, I'm out". I want nothing of your god if that is his bullshit.



Simply because I'm in a community here full of christians. If it were a muslim or hindu community I'd invoke their faiths. I am more against religion because it is man made ritual and power. As I've said many times in this thread, I am open to a higher power, but it is not one from our religions.

It's VERY clever. You knowing or not-knowing how something works doesn't make it exist or not because I am not sure how the internet (or sexual intercourse) works - but that doesn't change the reality of the internet. Same with God. Stop wasting time (not that God cares about Time) struggling over the trees, Pete.

If you left the church you're on the right track towards finding God. Peter Hiett might be of interest to you.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Ya know... I've often wondered myself how the Lord can be a "loving" and "forgiving" God, and then turn right around and be told that the ONLY way to heaven is this STRICT, NARROW PATH, and if you don't take it, you're going to HELL. And the bible makes reference to this...

Matthew 7:13-14Christian Standard Bible (CSB)

Entering the Kingdom

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.

But then later on in the Bible it implies that at the end of someone's life, anyone, or in the end days, that ANYONE who shall cry out to the Lord shall be saved...

Acts 2:20-22New King James Version (NKJV)

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’[a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2:20-22&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26971a)]

So which is it, a narrow path that absolutely has to be followed, or just more or less forget about it until the end and then just call out to the Lord. I debate this with my son.

[darin]

Ya know... I've often wondered myself how the Lord can be a "loving" and "forgiving" God, and then turn right around and be told that the ONLY way to heaven is this STRICT, NARROW PATH, and if you don't take it, you're going to HELL. And the bible makes reference to this...

Matthew 7:13-14Christian Standard Bible (CSB)

Entering the Kingdom

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.

But then later on in the Bible it implies that at the end of someone's life, anyone, or in the end days, that ANYONE who shall cry out to the Lord shall be saved...

Acts 2:20-22New King James Version (NKJV)

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’[a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2:20-22&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26971a)]

So which is it, a narrow path that absolutely has to be followed, or just more or less forget about it until the end and then just call out to the Lord. I debate this with my son.


Maybe it doesn't matter....because if you think Christ's teachings 'have to be followed' - shows obligation to him only out of fear of punishment - that's not love in my book. I think the key in this life is Love wins. Love. Love folks. Then you'll be just fine. See? Christ's teachings are taught - from his perspective - to make our lives BETTER..so it's not that we 'get' to avoid them. Quite the contrary - we GET to live them :)

[Black Diamond]

In general, His will and His influence/power are two different things.

[PostmodernProphet]

Is it my free will?

absolutely and without question...


Guess it's my free will that makes me less gullible and hard to convince.
yes, you freely chose to be a willful, disobedient dickhead........

[PostmodernProphet]

yeah honestly I have no idea what that means.
it means he's cutting you all the slack he can without actually forcing you to believe in him.......

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Maybe it doesn't matter...
I think God knows what's in your heart. He knows that even if you're not a walking, talking Bible and worship around the clock spreading the word, etc, etc, but you always profess with your own lips that you are a Christian and never deny the Lord, and if you're a good person and treat people decent, you're charitable, you take care of your family and your home, you obey the law of the land and simply do the best you can, you're still going to heaven. I don't think the Lord is going to condemn anyone like that to an eternity in hell. I think the Lord knows who and what you are, and whether or not you can quote the Bible verse for verse is irrelevant. If he knows you have faith in him and believe with your heart, you're going to heaven, period.

[pete311]

absolutely and without question...


yes, you freely chose to be a willful, disobedient dickhead........

How lucky you were to not be born in India. What a privilege.

[Black Diamond]

How lucky you were to not be born in India. What a privilege.
You forgot the word white.

[Drummond]

You can believe in god but also believe we can know or can't know. They are not mutually exclusive.

????????????????????????????????????????????????

This, Pete, makes no sense at all. You've tripped yourself up here, big time.

If you believe in God, then, you do !!! There's no 'I believe in God, but I still don't know if there is one' option. You either believe, or, you don't. One or the other.

Tell me how it's possible to believe in something, be it a God or anything else, but at the same time, despite the belief, accept that the belief is very possibly false. You DO believe, or, you DON'T believe. It's that simple.

In saying you're an atheist, you say you don't believe in God. You also go to the extreme of being immovable in that non-belief. To you, there's no 'these guys who believe in God may in fact be right after all' recourse you can adopt (because then, you'd be an agnostic instead). You reject belief in God outright, 'end-of-story', by being an atheist.

... and that, Pete, my son, is A FAITH. You have FAITH you are right. By not accepting any alternative within the confines of that atheistic belief, you imprison yourself within the wholly illogical certainty of immovability from it, blind to any evidence saying otherwise. You refuse to concede any alternative as legitimate, or therefore, that there actually is one that you can seriously consider.

This is faith. In fact, it's blind faith. It's therefore a nonsense.

[pete311]

????????????????????????????????????????????????

This, Pete, makes no sense at all. You've tripped yourself up here, big time.

If you believe in God, then, you do !!! There's no 'I believe in God, but I still don't know if there is one' option. You either believe, or, you don't. One or the other.

Tell me how it's possible to believe in something, be it a God or anything else, but at the same time, despite the belief, accept that the belief is very possibly false. You DO believe, or, you DON'T believe. It's that simple.

In saying you're an atheist, you say you don't believe in God. You also go to the extreme of being immovable in that non-belief. To you, there's no 'these guys who believe in God may in fact be right after all' recourse you can adopt (because then, you'd be an agnostic instead). You reject belief in God outright, 'end-of-story', by being an atheist.

... and that, Pete, my son, is A FAITH. You have FAITH you are right. By not accepting any alternative within the confines of that atheistic belief, you imprison yourself within the wholly illogical certainty of immovability from it, blind to any evidence saying otherwise. You refuse to concede any alternative as legitimate, or therefore, that there actually is one that you can seriously consider.

This is faith. In fact, it's blind faith. It's therefore a nonsense.

You're not understanding correctly. Understand the distinction. Please actually research the terms. According to the philosopher William L. Rowe, "agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify either the belief that God exists or the belief that God does not exist". Thus the two are not mutually exclusive.

Learn more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

[aboutime]

Guess you aren't aware petey. But WIKI'S accuracy can be changed, by the minute, hour, day, week, month, or year...by anyone who wants to create their own VERSIONS of whatever topic is being questioned.

Here is the FIRST paragraph from WIKI....


"This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (February 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)

This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please help to improve this article by introducing more precise citations. (February 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)"

[PostmodernProphet]

How lucky you were to not be born in India. What a privilege.
why?.....do they force people to be dickheads there?......you were privileged to be born in a Christian nation.......there are people in India that believe even though they didn't have that privilege......and you threw your's away for nothing.....sad, isn't it.......

[pete311]

Guess you aren't aware petey. But WIKI'S accuracy can be changed, by the minute, hour, day, week, month, or year...by anyone who wants to create their own VERSIONS of whatever topic is being questioned.

Here is the FIRST paragraph from WIKI....


"This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (February 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)

This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please help to improve this article by introducing more precise citations. (February 2017) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)"

Here is a better source with a really interesting read. First 2 sections are the relevant parts.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/

[pete311]

why?.....do they force people to be dickheads there?......you were privileged to be born in a Christian nation.......there are people in India that believe even though they didn't have that privilege......and you threw your's away for nothing.....sad, isn't it.......

I am not defined by the religious majority of the nation I was born into.

[aboutime]

I am not defined by the religious majority of the nation I was born into.



That is...If you were actually born. You have become the poster boy for the perpetually stupid petey. FEEL PROUD?
<img src="https://i.pinimg.com/736x/74/93/ea/7493ea6a2ce63ae397e36ce53587cfd6--stupid-people-political-views.jpg">

[darin]

absolutely and without question...


yes, you freely chose to be a willful, disobedient dickhead........

what's more important to God, or to you - obedience or grace?

When there is love there is no 'obedience' because love can't exist out of compulsion.

Grace is love.

[darin]

And remember - God is Love you fucking assholes. Seriously you dimwitted jerk, you should believe in the loving GOD i am bashing you over the head about because if you DONT you will be endlessly tortured until you are dead, then revived then tortured until you are dead again and repeat - for ETERNITY!!! You don't want to be burned to 'death' every day for all of existence, do you, you shit-head?? You BETTER just decide to believe in this WONDERFUL LOVING supportive Christian experience I HAVE! See? My life is SO FULL OF LOVE and honest CARING that I'm reminding you that you are worthless unless you agree with me!

[Kathianne]

And remember - God is Love you fucking assholes. Seriously you dimwitted jerk, you should believe in the loving GOD i am bashing you over the head about because if you DONT you will be endlessly tortured until you are dead, then revived then tortured until you are dead again and repeat - for ETERNITY!!! You don't want to be burned to 'death' every day for all of existence, do you, you shit-head?? You BETTER just decide to believe in this WONDERFUL LOVING supportive Christian experience I HAVE! See? My life is SO FULL OF LOVE and honest CARING that I'm reminding you that you are worthless unless you agree with me!
:laugh2:

[High_Plains_Drifter]

And remember - God is Love you fucking assholes. Seriously you dimwitted jerk, you should believe in the loving GOD i am bashing you over the head about because if you DONT you will be endlessly tortured until you are dead, then revived then tortured until you are dead again and repeat - for ETERNITY!!! You don't want to be burned to 'death' every day for all of existence, do you, you shit-head?? You BETTER just decide to believe in this WONDERFUL LOVING supportive Christian experience I HAVE! See? My life is SO FULL OF LOVE and honest CARING that I'm reminding you that you are worthless unless you agree with me!
That's never been my contention, ever... (and not insinuating you were specifically aiming that at me.)

And I've always included the qualifier that I'm not a perfect Christian, and I don't "turn the other cheek." You treat me like shit, I treat you like shit, and if you don't think that's very Christian like, well, I really don't care. I'll apologize to the Lord later for defending myself and hope he understands.

I do get your point though, and really do agree. I've heard plenty of preachers use the hell fire and damnation speeches, and then turn around and give us the "God is love" line. This is one of the things I debate with my son, who is a newly full blown, consumed with the Bible, YEC cult, zealot. I don't believe for one second that a person needs to go to such extremes to enter the gates of heaven.

[pete311]

And I've always included the qualifier that I'm not a perfect Christian, and I don't "turn the other cheek." You treat me like shit, I treat you like shit, and if you don't think that's very Christian like, well, I really don't care. I'll apologize to the Lord later for defending myself and hope he understands.


He won't and now you're damned to hell for eternity. How does that feel?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

He won't and now you're damned to hell for eternity. How does that feel?
Doesn't make me "feel" anything, because you no more know what the Lord will or won't do than the man in the moon does. You've rejected him on every level.

A bunch of goat herders made him up 2,000 years ago... remember?

[Abbey Marie]

And remember - God is Love you fucking assholes. Seriously you dimwitted jerk, you should believe in the loving GOD i am bashing you over the head about because if you DONT you will be endlessly tortured until you are dead, then revived then tortured until you are dead again and repeat - for ETERNITY!!! You don't want to be burned to 'death' every day for all of existence, do you, you shit-head?? You BETTER just decide to believe in this WONDERFUL LOVING supportive Christian experience I HAVE! See? My life is SO FULL OF LOVE and honest CARING that I'm reminding you that you are worthless unless you agree with me!

Clearly Jesus preached love and forgiveness, among many other "quiet" virtues, as I think of them. And I 1000% per cent believe that we must by example reflect Christ's love and humility, or we do more harm than good. So, excellent point, Darin.

I would only add that I personally believe that generally speaking, Christ would prefer passionate discourse to calm indifference.
Rev 3:16

[darin]

Clearly Jesus preached love and forgiveness, among many other "quiet" virtues, as I think of them. And I 1000% per cent believe that we must by example reflect Christ's love and humility, or we do more harm than good. So, excellent point, Darin.

I would only add that I personally believe that generally speaking, Christ would prefer passionate discourse to calm indifference.
Rev 3:16

In person, within an established relationship, yes. Agreed.

[aboutime]

<img src="https://www.askideas.com/media/86/An-atheist-is-a-man-who-believes-himself-an-accident.-Francis-Thompson.jpg">

<img src="https://reasonlogicreality.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/hypocrite.jpg">

[PostmodernProphet]

I am not defined by the religious majority of the nation I was born into.
I know.......you are defined by your ignorance......


what's more important to God, or to you - obedience or grace?

When there is love there is no 'obedience' because love can't exist out of compulsion.

Grace is love.
obviously grace......without grace there is nothing to choose......


And remember - God is Love you fucking assholes. Seriously you dimwitted jerk, you should believe in the loving GOD i am bashing you over the head about because if you DONT you will be endlessly tortured until you are dead, then revived then tortured until you are dead again and repeat - for ETERNITY!!! You don't want to be burned to 'death' every day for all of existence, do you, you shit-head?? You BETTER just decide to believe in this WONDERFUL LOVING supportive Christian experience I HAVE! See? My life is SO FULL OF LOVE and honest CARING that I'm reminding you that you are worthless unless you agree with me!
poor choice, darin......


He won't and now you're damned to hell for eternity. How does that feel?
like all your claims, it feels rather stupid......

[Drummond]

I am not defined by the religious majority of the nation I was born into.

Wasn't America founded upon the very values stemming from the religion you're now pleased to resist identification with ?

This, for me, begs the question: what, exactly, ARE you loyal to ? What does define you as a citizen ?

[pete311]

Wasn't America founded upon the very values stemming from the religion you're now pleased to resist identification with ?

This, for me, begs the question: what, exactly, ARE you loyal to ? What does define you as a citizen ?

American was founded on slavery, so no. I am not big into nationalism. I see it little different than Lakers vs Knicks. How about we just be civil world humans beings.

[PostmodernProphet]

American was founded on slavery, so no.
so you don't understand history or religion......

[darin]

I know.......you are defined by your ignorance......


obviously grace......without grace there is nothing to choose......


poor choice, darin......


like all your claims, it feels rather stupid......



What's poor is a christian trying to debate-somebody to to God. About taking the discussion against the man. My satire was spot-on and is spot-on as an example to Christians of what they are actually doing - they are avoiding Love. Avoiding love = avoiding God = not-christian.

[Abbey Marie]

What jumps out at me is how these two opinions are actually not mutually exclusive.

According to the Bible, both God's love and hell are real. I don't see the need to reject one belief for the other. We simply cannot know God's mind while we are here. I'm ok with that; it's a part of my faith.

Re-reading the Gospels carefully, I noticed that Jesus was frustrated and even angry a good bit. I was actually chuckling at times. A human side of Him that makes Him more relatable.

[PostmodernProphet]

What's poor is a christian trying to debate-somebody to to God. About taking the discussion against the man. My satire was spot-on and is spot-on as an example to Christians of what they are actually doing - they are avoiding Love. Avoiding love = avoiding God = not-christian.

I see your satire as bigotry......sorry......

[Gunny]

Wasn't America founded upon the very values stemming from the religion you're now pleased to resist identification with ?

This, for me, begs the question: what, exactly, ARE you loyal to ? What does define you as a citizen ?The original New England colonies were founded by people fleeing religious persecution in England and other European countries. The First Amendment to the US Constitution addresses freedom of religion without persecution. Obviously it was a front-running issue to be considered first.

Those Founding Fathers of course had a great idea that has never actually been practiced, but were wise enough to put it in stone in the Bill of Rights.

Our law, which is based on English law with a few tweaks to address the complaints against the Crown of the day, is based on Judeo-Christian values. Atheists of course deny this, believing instead the "Magic Moral Fairy" endowed them with inherent beliefs in right and wrong; which, is bullshit. The species Man has no inherent morals. They are taught.

A perfect example would be to look at the society of Judeo-Christian morality into which we were born vs the God-less society we currently live in. Athiests find God inconvenient. God sets down laws and values that get in the way of heathens wanting to sin without consequence.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

And trusting 2000 year old goat herders is logical? He was also a military man. Maybe the military experience had something to do with this. Sounds just as valid as his atheist views. btw, motive has already been declared domestic. So you can stop now.

Just for you Petey--to enlighten you a bit..And low and behold this is by highly qualified and well respected (scientific) authorities.
Do try to absorb the numbers given and contemplate the odds..
Very informative, interesting AND EDUCATIONAL READ.... SEE BELOW - TYR



http://optimisman.com/?p=100001604

1966, Carl Sagan, and the Odds on God (and Aliens)
Belief, Fascinating, Quotes
Dec 282014


Too often, one faulty thought enters the mainstream, is picked up as a soundbyte and disseminated by the media, and multitudes are affected by it. In this case, the thought was issued in 1966 by 32 year old Carl Sagan, when half the appliances in the USA were avocado and linoleum was in. The rest of the scientific community latched onto his quote and started doing math, coming to conclusions like the universe must be populated by thousands of planets that support intelligent life. Even today, “the math from the 60’s and 70’s” persists in many of our high school teachers.

CarlSagan-1966

As knowledge evolved, that math started to change. Here is an article that appeared in the Wall Street Journal this month. I don’t know if its 100% right (that’s hard to find) but it seems well worth considering.

I.M. Optimism Man

Preserved from the Wall Street Journal…
Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God
The odds of life existing on another planet grow ever longer. Intelligent design, anyone?
By
Eric Metaxas

Dec. 25, 2014 4:56 p.m. ET

In 1966 Time magazine ran a cover story asking: Is God Dead? Many have accepted the cultural narrative that he’s obsolete—that as science progresses, there is less need for a “God” to explain the universe. Yet it turns out that the rumors of God’s death were premature. More amazing is that the relatively recent case for his existence comes from a surprising place—science itself.

Here’s the story: The same year Time featured the now-famous headline, the astronomer Carl Sagan announced that there were two important criteria for a planet to support life: The right kind of star, and a planet the right distance from that star. Given the roughly octillion—1 followed by 27 zeros—planets in the universe, there should have been about septillion—1 followed by 24 zeros—planets capable of supporting life.

With such spectacular odds, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, a large, expensive collection of private and publicly funded projects launched in the 1960s, was sure to turn up something soon. Scientists listened with a vast radio telescopic network for signals that resembled coded intelligence and were not merely random. But as years passed, the silence from the rest of the universe was deafening. Congress defunded SETI in 1993, but the search continues with private funds. As of 2014, researches have discovered precisely bubkis—0 followed by nothing.

What happened? As our knowledge of the universe increased, it became clear that there were far more factors necessary for life than Sagan supposed. His two parameters grew to 10 and then 20 and then 50, and so the number of potentially life-supporting planets decreased accordingly. The number dropped to a few thousand planets and kept on plummeting.

Even SETI proponents acknowledged the problem. Peter Schenkel wrote in a 2006 piece for Skeptical Inquirer magazine: “In light of new findings and insights, it seems appropriate to put excessive euphoria to rest . . . . We should quietly admit that the early estimates . . . may no longer be tenable.”

As factors continued to be discovered, the number of possible planets hit zero, and kept going. In other words, the odds turned against any planet in the universe supporting life, including this one. Probability said that even we shouldn’t be here.

Today there are more than 200 known parameters necessary for a planet to support life—every single one of which must be perfectly met, or the whole thing falls apart. Without a massive planet like Jupiter nearby, whose gravity will draw away asteroids, a thousand times as many would hit Earth’s surface. The odds against life in the universe are simply astonishing.

Yet here we are, not only existing, but talking about existing. What can account for it? Can every one of those many parameters have been perfect by accident? At what point is it fair to admit that science suggests that we cannot be the result of random forces? Doesn’t assuming that an intelligence created these perfect conditions require far less faith than believing that a life-sustaining Earth just happened to beat the inconceivable odds to come into being?

There’s more. The fine-tuning necessary for life to exist on a planet is nothing compared with the fine-tuning required for the universe to exist at all. For example, astrophysicists now know that the values of the four fundamental forces—gravity, the electromagnetic force, and the “strong” and “weak” nuclear forces—were determined less than one millionth of a second after the big bang. Alter any one value and the universe could not exist. For instance, if the ratio between the nuclear strong force and the electromagnetic force had been off by the tiniest fraction of the tiniest fraction—by even one part in 100,000,000,000,000,000—then no stars could have ever formed at all. Feel free to gulp.

Multiply that single parameter by all the other necessary conditions, and the odds against the universe existing are so heart-stoppingly astronomical that the notion that it all “just happened” defies common sense. It would be like tossing a coin and having it come up heads 10 quintillion times in a row. Really?

Fred Hoyle, the astronomer who coined the term “big bang,” said that his atheism was “greatly shaken” at these developments. He later wrote that “a common-sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with the physics, as well as with chemistry and biology . . . . The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.”

Theoretical physicist Paul Davies has said that “the appearance of design is overwhelming” and Oxford professor Dr. John Lennox has said “the more we get to know about our universe, the more the hypothesis that there is a Creator . . . gains in credibility as the best explanation of why we are here.”

The greatest miracle of all time, without any close seconds, is the universe. It is the miracle of all miracles, one that ineluctably points with the combined brightness of every star to something—or Someone—beyond itself.

Mr. Metaxas is the author, most recently, of “Miracles: What They Are, Why They Happen, and How They Can Change Your Life” ( Dutton Adult, 2014).

[Drummond]

American was founded on slavery, so no. I am not big into nationalism. I see it little different than Lakers vs Knicks. How about we just be civil world humans beings.

I'm being fair, then, in concluding that you hate your country ??

Does this explain your brand of politics ... ??

By the way ... correct me if I'm wrong ... but, wasn't Abraham Lincoln a very outspoken anti-slavery voice ? The first figure of influence, in fact, to make a decent and remedial difference to American slavery ?

In considering that --- tell me, what was Lincoln's own political allegiance ? Was he a creature of the Left ?

I think ... NOT .......

[Gunny]

I'm being fair, then, in concluding that you hate your country ??

Does this explain your brand of politics ... ??

By the way ... correct me if I'm wrong ... but, wasn't Abraham Lincoln a very outspoken anti-slavery voice ? The first figure of influence, in fact, to make a decent and remedial difference to American slavery ?

In considering that --- tell me, what was Lincoln's own political allegiance ? Was he a creature of the Left ?

I think ... NOT .......I'm not sure what the context of the statement is, but Lincoln was just the last in a long line of anti-slave voices. What should give some pause as it concerns the here and now is that even at its height, abolitionists were a small minority with a voice much louder than their actual worth given such by the MSM of the day. And for the Pete's on the board, I'm NOT advocating slavery. My point is a benign topic was used as an an excuse to fight a civil war, be led by the hot heads with big mouths on BOTH sides. The vast majority in the middle who generally where the ones stuck doing the actual fighting didn't give a crap about slavery one way or the other.

Another note on Lincoln is he did NOT believe blacks were equal to whites. He stated as such, and also that he would let every slave remain where it was to preserve the union. He also believed he could just ship them back to Africa (Liberia). Nice idealism on his part. The war he created to preserve the Union then, has become the Union's undoing over time since. Our federal government is what it has become as a direct result of Lincoln's actions.

Several of the Founding Father's saw slavery as a double-edged sword (Jefferson and Washington). They owned slaves but were against the institution of slavery. John Quincy Adams was a rabid abolitionist in the 1820s. Several compromises were basically attempts by Congress to stick its finger in the dike. Dredd-Scott )A Supreme Court decision that stated slaves who traveled to free states with their masters were still slaves) sent the Abolitionists into a frenzy kind of like today's lefties have gone over Trump's election :laugh: Both the Missouri Compromise and Kansas-Nebraska Act were total busts.

So, Lincoln was the final straw that broke the camel's back. He WAS outspoken, but nothing new.

[stevecanuck]

I salt it the same way I do any other media sensantionalism/outright lie. You'd think blacks were more than 13% of the population too with all the attention and hype they get. Their numbers are media creations just as atheist numbers are.

Atheists are dumbasses anyway. Their whole stance is in "not believing"; which, is of itself a belief.

No. If someone tells you something for which there is no proof, then you can either accept it or reject it. Rejection is just that. It's not a belief. Saying it's a belief is to suggest that atheism would "exist" even in the absence of belief. Imagine a world in which the concept of god(s) simply did not exist. Now image this conversation:

Bob: I don't believe in God.
Bill: Huh? What's God?
Bob: He's an all powerful being who wished the universe into existence, and I don't believe he exists.
Bill: Well, who told you there is such a thing?
Bob: Nobody.
Bill: So, why are you stating a disbelief in something that absolutely nobody has even hinted exists in the first place?
Bob: It's just a belief I have.
Bill: Bartender! He's done for the day.

[BoogyMan]

I am not defined by the religious majority of the nation I was born into.

You are defined by the religion of atheism. It is a belief that you hold up as superior.

[BoogyMan]

what's more important to God, or to you - obedience or grace?

When there is love there is no 'obedience' because love can't exist out of compulsion.

Grace is love.

Jesus spoke thusly: John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

[Gunny]

No. If someone tells you something for which there is no proof, then you can either accept it or reject it. Rejection is just that. It's not a belief. Saying it's a belief is to suggest that atheism would "exist" even in the absence of belief. Imagine a world in which the concept of god(s) simply did not exist. Now image this conversation:

Bob: I don't believe in God.
Bill: Huh? What's God?
Bob: He's an all powerful being who wished the universe into existence, and I don't believe he exists.
Bill: Well, who told you there is such a thing?
Bob: Nobody.
Bill: So, why are you stating a disbelief in something that absolutely nobody has even hinted exists in the first place?
Bob: It's just a belief I have.
Bill: Bartender! He's done for the day.Semantics does not refute that a belief is a belief. Atheists DO argue against the existence of God. They BELIEVE He does not exist. THAT is a belief.

[aboutime]

Semantics does not refute that a belief is a belief. Atheists DO argue against the existence of God. They BELIEVE He does not exist. THAT is a belief.

Which, again, begs the question for me Gunny, to Atheists everywhere.
"IF there is no such thing as a GOD, according to you. Then WHAT NEED IS THERE FOR ANY OF YOU TO CALL YOURSELVES ATHEISTS? ATHEISTS AGAINST "WHAT?" You should no longer be Atheists because you say "THERE IS NOTHING TO BE AGAINST!"

Kinda dumb..if you honestly think about it.

[darin]

Which, again, begs the question for me Gunny, to Atheists everywhere.
"IF there is no such thing as a GOD, according to you. Then WHAT NEED IS THERE FOR ANY OF YOU TO CALL YOURSELVES ATHEISTS? ATHEISTS AGAINST "WHAT?" You should no longer be Atheists because you say "THERE IS NOTHING TO BE AGAINST!"

Kinda dumb..if you honestly think about it.

that question isn't valid - not an important point.

It's not a fallacy to claim you don't believe in something. And saying you don't believe in something is not evidence the something exists

[stevecanuck]

Semantics does not refute that a belief is a belief. Atheists DO argue against the existence of God. They BELIEVE He does not exist. THAT is a belief.

The only reason atheists express an opinion on the matter is that they have no choice. We are surrounded by tens of millions of theists, and churches and crosses everywhere. We can't escape it no matter how much we would like to.

I guarantee you we would spend ZERO time in denial of your beliefs if we did not have it in our faces 24/7.

[aboutime]

The only reason atheists express an opinion on the matter is that they have no choice. We are surrounded by tens of millions of theists, and churches and crosses everywhere. We can't escape it no matter how much we would like to.

I guarantee you we would spend ZERO time in denial of your beliefs if we did not have it in our faces 24/7.

Oh, you mean like...every time any Christian says they believe in God. That's being thrown in your face? Much like every time an Atheist tells us there is no such thing, we have it thrown in our faces? Seems like a Stalemate to me.

[Abbey Marie]

The only reason atheists express an opinion on the matter is that they have no choice. We are surrounded by tens of millions of theists, and churches and crosses everywhere. We can't escape it no matter how much we would like to.

I guarantee you we would spend ZERO time in denial of your beliefs if we did not have it in our faces 24/7.

I rarely have any evidence out in the world that a particular person is a "theist". How can you tell? Are they running you down, shouting " I believe in God, and you'd better too!!".

As for churches and crosses, how are they "in your face"? They are just there, inanimate, stationary, docile. At most, there's a sign out front with a name and what time services are. Seems to me you are trying to be offended.

[Russ]

Semantics does not refute that a belief is a belief. Atheists DO argue against the existence of God. They BELIEVE He does not exist. THAT is a belief.

Agreed. And I have to say few things are worse than a strident atheist that tries to convince others not to believe, or that mock believers for being "stupid". An atheist that does this is essentially trying steal the afterlife away from others.

Put another way, a believer that tries to convince someone else to believe is just trying to save them, but an atheist that tries to convince some to not believe is (potentially) trying to damn them.

[Gunny]

that question isn't valid - not an important point.

It's not a fallacy to claim you don't believe in something. And saying you don't believe in something is not evidence the something existsI believe it is a valid point. Atheist. A-theist. Against theism. A word with meaning. You cannot be against something you do not believe exists. It is a non-issue.

It is an important point when it is the argument.

[PostmodernProphet]

that question isn't valid - not an important point.

It's not a fallacy to claim you don't believe in something. And saying you don't believe in something is not evidence the something exists
saying you don't believe in something is the realm of agnostics........atheists do say they believe in something.....the non-existence of deity.......

[PostmodernProphet]

The only reason atheists express an opinion on the matter is that they have no choice. We are surrounded by tens of millions of theists, and churches and crosses everywhere. We can't escape it no matter how much we would like to.

I guarantee you we would spend ZERO time in denial of your beliefs if we did not have it in our faces 24/7.
.....I know how you feel.....I know people who are demmycrats......

[stevecanuck]

Oh, you mean like...every time any Christian says they believe in God. That's being thrown in your face? Much like every time an Atheist tells us there is no such thing, we have it thrown in our faces? Seems like a Stalemate to me.

I guess you didn't feel like really reading what I wrote.

[stevecanuck]

saying you don't believe in something is the realm of agnostics........atheists do say they believe in something.....the non-existence of deity.......

Only because we're forced to due to the ubiquity of religion. You don't have to express your disbelief in the FSM, because there are so few pastafarians, but if there were billions of them, you would have to eventually address the issue. That's where I am with this god thingy y'all keep going on about. If you want to call it a belief, I can't stop you, but then I guess you could say I have as many "beliefs" as there are unsupported claims, limited only by any given individual's ability to dream up something magical for me to also not believe.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Only because we're forced to due to the ubiquity of religion. You don't have to express your disbelief in the FSM, because there are so few pastafarians, but if there were billions of them, you would have to eventually address the issue. That's where I am with this god thingy y'all keep going on about. If you want to call it a belief, I can't stop you, but then I guess you could say I have as many "beliefs" as there are unsupported claims, limited only by any given individual's ability to dream up something magical for me to also not believe.


The only way to make Islam sound compatible with the modern world is to lie about it.

^^^^^^ Love your tagline...
Although it is lacking... in saying the whole truth....
ISLAM WAS NOT COMPATIBLE IN THE OLD WORLD EITHER, THAT IS WHY THEY MURDER AT LEAST 250 MILLION PEOPLE DURING THEIR 1400+ YEARS, TO SPREAD THEIR FALSE RELIGION.
And show no signs of ever stopping in their murdering ways, as daily/current events worldwide so clearly show....
Christians are not doing that, in case you have missed that little tidbit...-Tyr

[stevecanuck]

^^^^^^ Love your tagline...
Although it is lacking... in saying the whole truth....
ISLAM WAS NOT COMPATIBLE IN THE OLD WORLD EITHER, THAT IS WHY THEY MURDER AT LEAST 250 MILLION PEOPLE DURING THEIR 1400+ YEARS, TO SPREAD THEIR FALSE RELIGION.
And show no signs of ever stopping in their murdering ways, as daily/current events worldwide so clearly show....
Christians are not doing that, in case you have missed that little tidbit...-Tyr

I did not at all miss it. I'm happy to see that Christians (at least the vast majority of them) have finally reverted to the peacefulness of their founding. Given the NT, I still don't see how at least 1600 years of Christianity was the horror show that it was.

[aboutime]

I did not at all miss it. I'm happy to see that Christians (at least the vast majority of them) have finally reverted to the peacefulness of their founding. Given the NT, I still don't see how at least 1600 years of Christianity was the horror show that it was.


They fooled ya stevecanuck. It was only a horror show for the NON-believers. And if it wasn't something to fear by Atheists, and Agnostics....why is there any need to keep defending the NON-beliefs???
As a Christian. I've had a wonderful life filled with friendships, and love. What's wrong with that?

[stevecanuck]

They fooled ya stevecanuck. It was only a horror show for the NON-believers. And if it wasn't something to fear by Atheists, and Agnostics....why is there any need to keep defending the NON-beliefs???
As a Christian. I've had a wonderful life filled with friendships, and love. What's wrong with that?

I have no idea what you think you're responding to.

[mundame]

Sure, a majority of the population is "unbelievers" now, certainly non-church attenders.

The Episcopals in my county are closing church after church and the membership and attendance keeps dropping. So they are taking whatever they can get for ministers -- this is a predominantly white, country county but one country church had a black rector and one has just hired a lesbian with a "wife" who will live with her in the manse. I'm betting that church, in deep country, will lose most of their members immediately. Oh, and both of these are over 68.

Christianity is certainly going downhill, but that sure doesn't mean it ought to be replaced by Islam.

[aboutime]

I have no idea what you think you're responding to.

Just as I expected. But....I forgive you anyway.

[PostmodernProphet]

Only because we're forced to
is that why you deny the existence of free will?....

[Abbey Marie]

Sure, a majority of the population is "unbelievers" now, certainly non-church attenders.

The Episcopals in my county are closing church after church and the membership and attendance keeps dropping. So they are taking whatever they can get for ministers -- this is a predominantly white, country county but one country church had a black rector and one has just hired a lesbian with a "wife" who will live with her in the manse. I'm betting that church, in deep country, will lose most of their members immediately. Oh, and both of these are over 68.

Christianity is certainly going downhill, but that sure doesn't mean it ought to be replaced by Islam.

IMO, many of the main line denominations have strayed and lost their way. My belief is that churches that stay Bible-based are continually blessed by God, so perhaps the opposite is true.

[stevecanuck]

is that why you deny the existence of free will?....

You are VERY confused. I have never denied the existence of free will.