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reedak
12-12-2017, 05:31 AM
1. Chinese authorities reported that a deadly blast that rocked China's port city of Ningbo on 26 November 2017 was caused by the mishandling of illegal explosives at an abandoned factory. The explosion centred on a septic tank near which a truck loaded with illegally manufactured explosives was parked. The blast killed two people and injured at least 30 others, leaving buildings destroyed and streets littered with damaged cars and debris. Two others were reported missing. The force of the explosion shattered windows in nearby apartments, mangled cars and reduced small buildings to rubble, affecting hundreds of residents. The explosion was so powerful that it was heard several kilometres away.

2. According to https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/the-aftershocks-of-north-koreas-nuclear-test/ar-BBGCiT4?li=AAaGkVj&ocid=spartandhp

(Begin excerpts)
North Korea's nuclear test in September didn't just generate diplomatic shockwaves but also a 6.3 magnitude earthquake.

Aftershocks have continued ever since, and on Saturday the US Geological Survey said it had detected two more, sparking significant debate about what might be going on underground...

Experts have expressed concerns the explosion might have been so powerful it could destabilise the surrounding mountains....

One of the speculations after the September test was that it would damage the tunnel system North Korea has dug into the mountains at its test site...

It is unclear whether this process already has rendered the current test site unusable but North Korea has hinted its next nuclear test could be above ground... (End excerpts)

3. Worshipping the three generations of Kim Dynasty's rulers as Korean gods has become part of a state religion. North Korea is essentially a theocracy. The Kim dynasty is premised on loyalty to the top leader, who long has been treated with reverence and said to be capable of super-human feats. For instance, the state-controlled Korean Central News Agency reported that Fatboy Kim was "in full control of the wind and the snow and the clouds" during his recent ascent up Mount Paektu. And we must not forget North Korea's claim that Kim Jong Il could control the weather too (although both he and Kim Il-Sung proved to be no match for the Grim Reaper).

When we look back at the massive destruction caused by the recent deadly blast in Ningbo, we can't help wondering the absence of any media report on civilian destruction caused by North Korea's six underground nuclear tests. Perhaps the Kim Dynasty's rulers are really an "Unholy Trinity" of gods (consist of grandfather, father and son) who could perform miracles far more miraculous than the world's official religions so much so that not even a single house has collapsed in the aftermath of their nuclear tests. No wonder Fatboy Kim dares to unveil outrageous new propaganda pictures which show the US being completely obliterated by a dozen nukes. If the US retaliates against such an attack, the fat boy may be able to deflect all US nuclear missiles and breathe fire at America like Godzilla.

4. The only woman Fatboy Kim trusts to deliver his most important propaganda is the auntie newsreader with the "notorious North Korean Mona Lisa smile". She is said to enjoy a high quality of life among the country's elite in the capital - in stark contrast to other more impoverished civilians. It is predictable what will happen to her if she announces the collapse of any building in the aftermath of a nuclear test. She will be wheeled to somewhere and disappeared forever from the North Korean TV screen. Since China and Russia have been outplayed by their North Korean small brother (or rather Big Brother) in power play and state propaganda, it is high time to for them to get their newsreaders to dress in national costumes and speak like the North Korean auntie.

After joking about the Unholy Trinity, I have to point out a possible disaster faced by all mankind. The rogue regime is pursuing its nuclear ambitions without caring a damn for the lives and welfare of its people. Lately it has hinted its next nuclear test could be above ground. This reveals serious problems caused by geographical restrictions at home for its underground nuclear tests.

North Korea certainly could not conduct any nuclear test above ground on its own soil without causing more harm to its population as it is a small densely-populated region compared to the US, Russia and China. The rogue regime, however, is determined to pursue its nuclear ambitions at all costs. The alternative places for such tests are off its coasts such as the Sea of Japan or the Pacific Ocean.

If the regime goes ahead with such a nuclear test, it will undoubtedly commit a great crime against all humanity. Will all nations (including North Korea's "small brothers" China and Russia) take action to crush the rogue regime like a cockroach? The lungs of humans and other mammals will be filled with radioactive materials blown from the nuclear test site. The water of the oceans will be contaminated with radioactive materials which can enter human bodies through fishes and other marine resources before most sea creatures go extinct.

https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/can-kim-jong-un-control-the-weather-north-korea%E2%80%99s-state-run-media-says-so/ar-BBGDcMZ?li=AAaGavh&ocid=spartandhp

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3388595/The-woman-North-Korea-trusts-deliver-important-propaganda-Ri-Chun-hee-news-anchor-Kim-Jong-wheels-wants-impress-world.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-nuclear-crisis-latest-ri-chun-hee-tv-newsreader-anchorwoman-voice-doom-missile-testing-a7930626.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4263097/kim-jong-uns-eerie-new-propaganda-posters-which-show-the-us-being-wiped-off-the-map-by-a-dozen-nukes-with-the-chilling-message-now-within-our-range/

https://superiorthan.com/superior/Godzilla-vs-King-Kong-379

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/16/north-korea-kim-jong-il-birthday

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-5124199/China-port-city-blast-caused-illegal-explosives-police.html

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-11/29/content_35118294.htm

darin
12-12-2017, 05:38 AM
way too much to digest.

reedak
12-12-2017, 06:04 AM
way too much to digest.

Perhaps when the time comes for all people to digest the radioactive materials from North Korea's nuclear tests, we won't find it "way too much to digest". If we see everyone dies of radioactivity in front of us, the only fear is to be left all alone in this world. :)

darin
12-12-2017, 06:22 AM
Perhaps when the time comes for all people to digest the radioactive materials from North Korea's nuclear tests, we won't find it "way too much to digest". If we see everyone dies of radioactivity in front of us, the only fear is to be left all alone in this world. :)

Okay.

But in terms of getting a point across, often less is more. Or fewer is more - when it comes to words.

reedak
12-12-2017, 06:39 AM
Okay.

But in terms of getting a point across, often less is more. Or fewer is more - when it comes to words.

Okay.

As the saying goes, "A picture is worth a thousand words."

Next time if I can get hold of a photo of North Korea's nuclear test over the Pacific Ocean or the Sea of Japan, I'll just post it in the forum.

:marineblue:
<strike></strike>

darin
12-12-2017, 07:06 AM
Okay.

As the saying goes, "A picture is worth a thousand words."

Next time if I can get hold of a photo of North Korea's nuclear test over the Pacific Ocean or the Sea of Japan, I'll just post it in the forum.

As Darin's saying goes - if you want-best to communicate a topic with the forum, sometimes flooding them with information makes the whole thing "tl/dr" :)





:marineblue:
<strike></strike>



how did you get a pic of Gunny

LongTermGuy
12-12-2017, 09:39 AM
1. Chinese authorities reported that a deadly blast that rocked China's port city of Ningbo on 26 November 2017 was caused by the mishandling of illegal explosives at an abandoned factory. The explosion centred on a septic tank near which a truck loaded with illegally manufactured explosives was parked. The blast killed two people and injured at least 30 others, leaving buildings destroyed and streets littered with damaged cars and debris. Two others were reported missing. The force of the explosion shattered windows in nearby apartments, mangled cars and reduced small buildings to rubble, affecting hundreds of residents. The explosion was so powerful that it was heard several kilometres away.

2. According to https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/the-aftershocks-of-north-koreas-nuclear-test/ar-BBGCiT4?li=AAaGkVj&ocid=spartandhp

(Begin excerpts)
North Korea's nuclear test in September didn't just generate diplomatic shockwaves but also a 6.3 magnitude earthquake.

Aftershocks have continued ever since, and on Saturday the US Geological Survey said it had detected two more, sparking significant debate about what might be going on underground...

Experts have expressed concerns the explosion might have been so powerful it could destabilise the surrounding mountains....

One of the speculations after the September test was that it would damage the tunnel system North Korea has dug into the mountains at its test site...

It is unclear whether this process already has rendered the current test site unusable but North Korea has hinted its next nuclear test could be above ground... (End excerpts)

3. Worshipping the three generations of Kim Dynasty's rulers as Korean gods has become part of a state religion. North Korea is essentially a theocracy. The Kim dynasty is premised on loyalty to the top leader, who long has been treated with reverence and said to be capable of super-human feats. For instance, the state-controlled Korean Central News Agency reported that Fatboy Kim was "in full control of the wind and the snow and the clouds" during his recent ascent up Mount Paektu. And we must not forget North Korea's claim that Kim Jong Il could control the weather too (although both he and Kim Il-Sung proved to be no match for the Grim Reaper).

When we look back at the massive destruction caused by the recent deadly blast in Ningbo, we can't help wondering the absence of any media report on civilian destruction caused by North Korea's six underground nuclear tests. Perhaps the Kim Dynasty's rulers are really an "Unholy Trinity" of gods (consist of grandfather, father and son) who could perform miracles far more miraculous than the world's official religions so much so that not even a single house has collapsed in the aftermath of their nuclear tests. No wonder Fatboy Kim dares to unveil outrageous new propaganda pictures which show the US being completely obliterated by a dozen nukes. If the US retaliates against such an attack, the fat boy may be able to deflect all US nuclear missiles and breathe fire at America like Godzilla.

4. The only woman Fatboy Kim trusts to deliver his most important propaganda is the auntie newsreader with the "notorious North Korean Mona Lisa smile". She is said to enjoy a high quality of life among the country's elite in the capital - in stark contrast to other more impoverished civilians. It is predictable what will happen to her if she announces the collapse of any building in the aftermath of a nuclear test. She will be wheeled to somewhere and disappeared forever from the North Korean TV screen. Since China and Russia have been outplayed by their North Korean small brother (or rather Big Brother) in power play and state propaganda, it is high time to for them to get their newsreaders to dress in national costumes and speak like the North Korean auntie.

After joking about the Unholy Trinity, I have to point out a possible disaster faced by all mankind. The rogue regime is pursuing its nuclear ambitions without caring a damn for the lives and welfare of its people. Lately it has hinted its next nuclear test could be above ground. This reveals serious problems caused by geographical restrictions at home for its underground nuclear tests.

North Korea certainly could not conduct any nuclear test above ground on its own soil without causing more harm to its population as it is a small densely-populated region compared to the US, Russia and China. The rogue regime, however, is determined to pursue its nuclear ambitions at all costs. The alternative places for such tests are off its coasts such as the Sea of Japan or the Pacific Ocean.

If the regime goes ahead with such a nuclear test, it will undoubtedly commit a great crime against all humanity. Will all nations (including North Korea's "small brothers" China and Russia) take action to crush the rogue regime like a cockroach? The lungs of humans and other mammals will be filled with radioactive materials blown from the nuclear test site. The water of the oceans will be contaminated with radioactive materials which can enter human bodies through fishes and other marine resources before most sea creatures go extinct.

https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/can-kim-jong-un-control-the-weather-north-korea%E2%80%99s-state-run-media-says-so/ar-BBGDcMZ?li=AAaGavh&ocid=spartandhp

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3388595/The-woman-North-Korea-trusts-deliver-important-propaganda-Ri-Chun-hee-news-anchor-Kim-Jong-wheels-wants-impress-world.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-nuclear-crisis-latest-ri-chun-hee-tv-newsreader-anchorwoman-voice-doom-missile-testing-a7930626.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4263097/kim-jong-uns-eerie-new-propaganda-posters-which-show-the-us-being-wiped-off-the-map-by-a-dozen-nukes-with-the-chilling-message-now-within-our-range/

https://superiorthan.com/superior/Godzilla-vs-King-Kong-379

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/16/north-korea-kim-jong-il-birthday

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-5124199/China-port-city-blast-caused-illegal-explosives-police.html

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-11/29/content_35118294.htm

Thanks...looks like a lot of interesting info...on way to work will check it out when I get back.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
12-12-2017, 09:59 AM
Thanks...looks like a lot of interesting info...on way to work will check it out when I get back.
No mention of President Bill Clinton giving North KOREA ITS NUKES, AND 5 BILLION DOLLARS.. HMMMMMMM
Or the scum obama's friendship with NK.-- Tyr

Gunny
12-12-2017, 10:29 AM
Okay.

As the saying goes, "A picture is worth a thousand words."

Next time if I can get hold of a photo of North Korea's nuclear test over the Pacific Ocean or the Sea of Japan, I'll just post it in the forum.

:marineblue:
<strike></strike>What are telling anyone we DON'T already know? Everyone here understands North Korea is a problem. Got it. You keep inundating us with verbosity; yet, propose no solution. Just what are YOUR options on handling the situation?

If you're going to post an emoticon of a Marine, then you get treated like one, so I'll tell you what MY Gunny told me when I was a low-life, unworthy Private -- don't come running to me with your problem WITHOUT bringing YOUR proposed solution.

reedak
12-12-2017, 09:55 PM
Thanks...looks like a lot of interesting info...on way to work will check it out when I get back.


I have to thank you, LongTermGuy, for appreciating my post. Perhaps you have spotted the "jewels" which our honourable darin has treated as "stones". The "jewels" are my jokes that poke fun at the divine myth and super-human feats of the Kim Dynasty's rulers, the cute North Korean auntie newsreader and the subservient attitude of the rogue regime's "small brothers" China and Russia.
:thanks:


No mention of President Bill Clinton giving North KOREA ITS NUKES, AND 5 BILLION DOLLARS.. HMMMMMMM
Or the scum obama's friendship with NK.-- Tyr

In contrast to our honourable darin's appetite, it seems that what I have dished out is too little for you.


If I have included your choice on my menu, he would have been screaming "Scum, scum, scum.....I found it hard to stomach 'scum obama's friendship with NK'!"
:doghouse:<strike></strike>

<strike></strike>

mundame
12-12-2017, 10:51 PM
[many, many, many words]


That was an interesting thread heading, but you didn't answer the question you posed: what IS the North Korean crime against humanity to which you refer?

reedak
12-12-2017, 11:06 PM
how did you get a pic of @Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30)

Gunny has carelessly left his pic lying around for anyone to pick it up. He needs to be punished for his carelessness, or we can use Trump's fateful catch phrase for Gunny: :trump:
<strike></strike>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apprentice_%28U.S._TV_series%29


That was an interesting thread heading, but you didn't answer the question you posed: what IS the North Korean crime against humanity to which you refer?

It's the "upcoming" crime, if North Korea goes ahead with the next move it has hinted to conduct a nuclear test above ground. We don't expect the rogue regime to be so foolish as to test a nuclear bomb on its own soil because North Korea is a small densely-populated region. The most likely place to conduct a nuclear test above ground should be either over the Pacific Ocean or the Sea of Japan. The outcome would be contaminating the atmosphere and ocean water with radioactive materials, thus endangering the lives of mankind and all other living things.

mundame
12-12-2017, 11:34 PM
...The most likely place to conduct a nuclear test above ground should be either over the Pacific Ocean or the Sea of Japan. The outcome would be contaminating the atmosphere and ocean water with radioactive materials, thus endangering the lives of mankind and all other living things.


I see. Yes, that is likely to get some push-back, if they try it. Thanks for your reply.

I thought you might be referring to NOKO nuking Washington or EMP-ing the whole USA, but atmospheric testing over the Pacific would be an interesting interim step.

reedak
12-13-2017, 01:46 AM
I see. Yes, that is likely to get some push-back, if they try it. Thanks for your reply.

I thought you might be referring to NOKO nuking Washington or EMP-ing the whole USA, but atmospheric testing over the Pacific would be an interesting interim step.

It is amazing that you regard atmospheric testing over the Pacific as an "interesting interim step" as though you are unaware of the serious consequences of such a test. If it happens, it would be a nightmare for all mankind and other living things.

According to the latest news report, Fatboy Kim said North Korea "will victoriously advance and leap as the strongest nuclear power and military power in the world".

Let us look at the implications and consequences before and after if North Korea becomes "the strongest nuclear power and military power in the world".

Before
1. To achieve its goal, North Korea must conduct many more nuclear tests. It cannot continue its underground tests because the tremors and aftershocks will bring down more buildings. Neither can it conduct the nuclear tests above its own land as the small country will bomb itself out of this world. The suitable place for conducting such nuclear tests would be over the Pacific Ocean or the Sea of Japan.

2. It must conduct many missile tests to ensure that they could hit the distant targets accurately.

After
1. If North Korea can become the strongest nuclear power and military power in the world, the US will have to give way to take second place.

2. Then North Korea should have more nuclear bombs than the US or Russia to destroy the Earth several times over.

3. By then, North Korea will have no fear of the US or Russia or China or Japan.

4. Looking at North Korea's aggressive behaviour today "before the feathers on its wings have fully grown", we can imagine how it will behave "when all its feathers on its wings have grown". If it can become the number one superpower, it will push its way around the world using nuclear blackmail.

5. Its first target of imperialist expansion would be South Korea which could be easily "swallowed" by it like the Russian annexation of Crimea. Its second target could be China's northeastern region which had been the site of an ancient Korean kingdom.

6. After that, it may go on a global expansion like those of the Huns and Mongols.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/kim-vows-to-make-north-korea-strongest-nuclear-power/articleshow/62047751.cms

Drummond
12-13-2017, 08:57 AM
It is amazing that you regard atmospheric testing over the Pacific as an "interesting interim step" as though you are unaware of the serious consequences of such a test. If it happens, it would be a nightmare for all mankind and other living things.

According to the latest news report, Fatboy Kim said North Korea "will victoriously advance and leap as the strongest nuclear power and military power in the world".

Let us look at the implications and consequences before and after if North Korea becomes "the strongest nuclear power and military power in the world".

Before
1. To achieve its goal, North Korea must conduct many more nuclear tests. It cannot continue its underground tests because the tremors and aftershocks will bring down more buildings. Neither can it conduct the nuclear tests above its own land as the small country will bomb itself out of this world. The suitable place for conducting such nuclear tests would be over the Pacific Ocean or the Sea of Japan.

2. It must conduct many missile tests to ensure that they could hit the distant targets accurately.

After
1. If North Korea can become the strongest nuclear power and military power in the world, the US will have to give way to take second place.

2. Then North Korea should have more nuclear bombs than the US or Russia to destroy the Earth several times over.

3. By then, North Korea will have no fear of the US or Russia or China or Japan.

4. Looking at North Korea's aggressive behaviour today "before the feathers on its wings have fully grown", we can imagine how it will behave "when all its feathers on its wings have grown". If it can become the number one superpower, it will push its way around the world using nuclear blackmail.

5. Its first target of imperialist expansion would be South Korea which could be easily "swallowed" by it like the Russian annexation of Crimea. Its second target could be China's northeastern region which had been the site of an ancient Korean kingdom.

6. After that, it may go on a global expansion like those of the Huns and Mongols.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/kim-vows-to-make-north-korea-strongest-nuclear-power/articleshow/62047751.cms

Your 'before' scenario is reasonable (thanks for your posts here, by the way).

Your 'after' scenario is at best 'fanciful'. It would, and could, never come about. N Korea becoming any form of 'superpower' ... seriously ? ? No current 'superpower' would stand for such a thing. Believing that Trump would, qualifies one for an inmate's position in a lunatic asylum ... I think that probably the same could be said for Putin. Not even China would tolerate such a status quo.

Unless North Korea changes course .... it's not a question of 'if' action may be taken, just 'when'. I'm sure everyone in a position to initiate it doesn't exactly like the prospect, and maybe would rather defer it ... BUT ... that's a far cry from accepting the need for action. There are only two options:

1. Bad Haircut Boy sees sense and calls off his agenda of belligerence (with or without the intervention of psychiatric assistance, or maybe some sort of coup ?).

2. Military action IS taken, to neutralise the threat he poses to world security (perhaps co-ordinated in principle, maybe also in 'hardware terms', between the current superpowers ?)

mundame
12-13-2017, 10:27 AM
It is amazing that you regard atmospheric testing over the Pacific as an "interesting interim step" as though you are unaware of the serious consequences of such a test. If it happens, it would be a nightmare for all mankind and other living things.


No, it wouldn't: it wasn't last time, when the U.S. and Russia both did it, over and over, hundreds of tests including H-bombs. No lingering effects, apparently. Admittedly it did need to be stopped! Contamination of the environment, strontium-90 in the milk. However, Hiroshima and Nagasaki recovered within 20 years of their bombings: limited nuclear bombing is probably not a threat to the planet. Well, it hasn't been so far and there has been a whole lot of it, including the testings all over earth and water.



According to the latest news report, Fatboy Kim said North Korea "will victoriously advance and leap as the strongest nuclear power and military power in the world".



What, with China next door? No.

It is true NOKO does seem to think it can win a war with the United States, and maybe it can. We are seriously disunited now and last time we tried to defeat NOKO we did NOT win and Chinese poured over the border to help them. So yes, maybe they can win in some sense. They did win before against us in the sense that they got half of what they wanted, the Korean Penninsula. That was a proxy war and this new one coming up will also be a proxy war. Everybody loves a proxy war: all the new weapons get tested and pilots and soldiers get experience but it isn't fought on the homeland of either of the principals, so no real problem for them. Kind of hard on the South Koreans, of course. (And the North Koreans, but I don't care about them. Enemies are enemies.)

Every new president has a war of his own. That's an iron-clad rule if you include all the several wars Obama let go on and on, as well as his new drone wars in all sorts of god-forsaken places. So Trump is sure to have one soon, perhaps when he needs one and when Little Rocketman gives him an excuse ----- that's what Clinton did with Serbia after Monica was heating up the airwaves, and don't we all feel silly for supporting those Kosovo Muslims now.

Of course Trump is hoping Kim starts it!! Testing nukes over the Pacific might well be enough of an excuse. I doubt we'll wait till he bombs Los Angeles ----- or Chicago. They MAY let test bombing slide, however. Wouldn't surprise me. North Korea is not the problem: if it were in Africa, Kim would already be deposed. The problem is their Big Buddy, China. We don't want war with China. I think China will use a proxy war with North Korea as a way to force us out of Asia. Might be as well to avoid that as long as we can. All the geopolitical books being written now assume we cannot avoid it indefinitely.

Who are you trolling for? South Korea? Russia? I don't care: I know about the legions of international trolls who try to stir us up in ways that might advantage their country of origin. It's still an interesting issue, NOKO and nukes.

reedak
12-13-2017, 06:14 PM
What are telling anyone we DON'T already know? Everyone here understands North Korea is a problem. Got it. You keep inundating us with verbosity; yet, propose no solution. Just what are YOUR options on handling the situation?

If a smart aleck like you is bitten by an elusive mosquito, does he need others to teach him what to do? :)

reedak
12-13-2017, 06:54 PM
No, it wouldn't: it wasn't last time, when the U.S. and Russia both did it, over and over, hundreds of tests including H-bombs. No lingering effects, apparently. Admittedly it did need to be stopped! Contamination of the environment, strontium-90 in the milk. However, Hiroshima and Nagasaki recovered within 20 years of their bombings: limited nuclear bombing is probably not a threat to the planet. Well, it hasn't been so far and there has been a whole lot of it, including the testings all over earth and water.

Testings all over water? You must be kidding. Please provide a link or source to disclose which countries have ever tested their bombs over water.

No lingering effects, apparently? You are kidding again. Just take a dip at once in the water near the testing site if North Korea ever explodes a nuclear bomb over water. If you think the water is still safe, get some with a container and drink it after distillation. :)

Gunny
12-13-2017, 07:42 PM
If a smart aleck like you is bitten by an elusive mosquito, does he need others to teach him what to do? :)Not all. You post novellas and this is the first time I recall you ever coming back to check the responses.

My point is simple. Your thread is akin to saying the sky is blue. Okay. The sky is blue. N Korea has nukes and is working on a delivery system and we've sat idly by since the 1950s while they did it and every time we do nothing the stakes get higher and they present more of a danger. Iran is following the exact same script and it presents more of a danger than N Korea.

So again ... it's gone this far. What's your proposed solution? And it isn't as simple as swatting a mosquito. It WAS. Now it isn't.

Kathianne
12-13-2017, 07:48 PM
Testings all over water? You must be kidding. Please provide a link or source to disclose which countries have ever tested their bombs over water.

No lingering effects, apparently? You are kidding again. Just take a dip at once in the water near the testing site if North Korea ever explodes a nuclear bomb over water. If you think the water is still safe, get some with a container and drink it after distillation. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Proving_Grounds

Black Diamond
12-13-2017, 07:48 PM
Not all. You post novellas and this is the first time I recall you ever coming back to check the responses.

My point is simple. Your thread is akin to saying the sky is blue. Okay. The sky is blue. N Korea has nukes and is working on a delivery system and we've sat idly by since the 1950s while they did it and every time we do nothing the stakes get higher and they present more of a danger. Iran is following the exact same script and it presents more of a danger than N Korea.

So again ... it's gone this far. What's your proposed solution? And it isn't as simple as swatting a mosquito. It WAS. Now it isn't.
Time machine and listen to MacArthur?

I talked to a guy who was in the DMZ probably 15 years ago. He said if the north attacked.. By the time we or the south could respond, 80000 South Koreans would be killed? That the north has them in their cross hairs 24/7?

reedak
12-13-2017, 08:55 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Proving_Grounds

After reading your link, I conclude North Korea will have to search for an atoll or an island in the Sea of Japan or the Pacific Ocean and claim it as its territory before it can conduct a nuclear test. Failing to own an island far away from the North Korean mainland, the rogue regime will have to detonate its nuclear bomb over international water using a missile or a plane.

And thanks to you, I obtain valuable materials from your link to refute Miss Mundame's claim of "no lingering effects, apparently" in "hundreds of tests including H-bombs".

The following are excerpts from your link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Proving_Grounds

(Begin excerpts)
Many of the islands which were part of the Pacific Proving Grounds are still contaminated from the nuclear fallout, and many of those who were living on the islands at the time of testing have suffered from an increased incidence of various health problems. Through the Radiation Exposure Compensation Act of 1990, at least $759 million has been paid to Marshall Islanders as compensation for their exposure to U.S. nuclear testing. Following the Castle Bravo accident, the U.S. paid $15.3 million to Japan.

Scientists have calculated that the residents of the Marshall Islands during their lifetimes will be diagnosed with an added 1.6% (with 90% uncertainty range 0.4% to 3.4%) cancers attributable to fallout-related radiation exposures. The cancers are the consequence of exposure to ionizing radiation from weapons test fallout deposited during the testing period (1948-1958) and from residual radioactive sources during the subsequent 12 years (1959-1970). (End excerpts)

aboutime
12-13-2017, 09:35 PM
The nuclear weapons used in Hiroshima, and Nagasaki Japan were....compared to the payloads of Nuke missiles, launched from U.S. Submarines today...like throwing mud balls at a wall in comparison.

Nukes being deployed today, by ALL nuclear armed nations have the ability...IN ONE WARHEAD to spread Literal, Nuclear, and Total Waste to at least 12 targets at ONE TIME.

So, anyone who feels comfortable comparing the NUKES dropped in 1945 over Japan as being less lethal...needs to understand. ELF, and nuclear Fallout can be so widespread today, used in conjunction with the JET STREAM, and other Weather conditions high above most nations...the results would be devastating, and Long lasting.
Don't ask me how I know. I can't honestly share that. But...I HAVE NO REASON TO LIE.

mundame
12-13-2017, 10:26 PM
Testings all over water? You must be kidding. Please provide a link or source to disclose which countries have ever tested their bombs over water.

No lingering effects, apparently you are kidding again. Just take a dip at once in the water near the testing site if North Korea ever explodes a nuclear bomb over water. If you think the water is still safe, get some with a container and drink it after distillation. :)


Nonsense: it's all gone away by now. Come on, you know that as well as we do. I well recall when nuclear war and nuclear testing were both expected to end humanity, and many excellent novels and excellent quotes (Einstein: I don't know what WWIII will be fought with, but I know what WWIV will be fought with: rocks.) came out of all that. But nothing came of it, and all the nuked areas recovered.

I recognize you are trying to het us up, but we can get upset on our own time, thanks anyway. Of course we tested alllllllllllll our bombs in the Pacific: where did you think those dramatic mushroom cloud pix came from?

Will we let NOKO get away with atmospheric testing in the Pacific? I think we might let them --- or we might go after them. Hard to say. Depends on how much Trump needs a war, I would think: not how many fish are killed by NOKO nukes.

mundame
12-13-2017, 10:31 PM
The nuclear weapons used in Hiroshima, and Nagasaki Japan were....compared to the payloads of Nuke missiles, launched from U.S. Submarines today...like throwing mud balls at a wall in comparison.

Nukes being deployed today, by ALL nuclear armed nations have the ability...IN ONE WARHEAD to spread Literal, Nuclear, and Total Waste to at least 12 targets at ONE TIME.

So, anyone who feels comfortable comparing the NUKES dropped in 1945 over Japan as being less lethal...needs to understand. ELF, and nuclear Fallout can be so widespread today, used in conjunction with the JET STREAM, and other Weather conditions high above most nations...the results would be devastating, and Long lasting.
Don't ask me how I know. I can't honestly share that. But...I HAVE NO REASON TO LIE.


I believe you, of course: I've been reading. NOKO is talking H-bombs now, as you know. The bigger the better, right?

What do you think about EMPs? A whole fiction industry has been established on that idea, preppers and such, and I'm a great fan of it all. NOKO is the obvious villain in all the fictional EMP attacks --- well, they HAVE explicitly threatened that. Don't know if I quite believe it............................but Himself did sort of wrap some emergency electronics like a windup radio and a tablet in aluminum foil and put it in a Faraday Cage in the basement.

mundame
12-13-2017, 10:36 PM
Time machine and listen to MacArthur?

I talked to a guy who was in the DMZ probably 15 years ago. He said if the north attacked.. By the time we or the south could respond, 80000 South Koreans would be killed? That the north has them in their cross hairs 24/7?

Yeah, sucks to be them, but. But it's not us doing it. We are not shelling South Koreans. That would be Little Rocketman. We cannot be responsible for all this total crap around the world!!

The one thing I have learned well from this situation, along with the 11 AM Nov. 11, 1918 Armistice, is never, never, never again do an armistice. They always without fail lead to another war. The one the 1918 led to broke out 21 years later; the one at the DMZ has taken longer, but here it comes now.

aboutime
12-14-2017, 05:17 PM
I believe you, of course: I've been reading. NOKO is talking H-bombs now, as you know. The bigger the better, right?

What do you think about EMPs? A whole fiction industry has been established on that idea, preppers and such, and I'm a great fan of it all. NOKO is the obvious villain in all the fictional EMP attacks --- well, they HAVE explicitly threatened that. Don't know if I quite believe it............................but Himself did sort of wrap some emergency electronics like a windup radio and a tablet in aluminum foil and put it in a Faraday Cage in the basement.


Long before anyone was talking about EMP's, before I retired from the Navy in 95, I, and an entire Navy crew got to experience the effects of an Intentional EMP weapon, being tested in a limited, controlled setting. "IT WORKS!" That's all I can say about it.

The first time the US tested an EMP weapon was a doozy

http://www.businessinsider.com/first-us-test-emp-weapon-2016-11
It was 1962 and only four days after Independence Day, but people living on the islands dotting the Pacific Ocean from Hawaii to New Zealand were about to see a light show brighter than any July Fourth fireworks display in history.

More ominously, many of those same people would get a taste of how a single nuclear weapon could wipe out a nation’s electrical grid – and the U.S. military at the time had no clue how damaging the results would be.

Codenamed Starfish Prime, it was part of a series of nuclear tests conducted by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission and the Pentagon. Some of those tests included launches from Johnston Island of the U.S. Air Force’s PGM-17 Thor intermediate range ballistic missiles with live W49 thermonuclear warheads.

The purpose: rocket the warheads to the edge of space and detonate them to determine whether thermonuclear fireballs could be used to destroy incoming nuclear warheads from the Soviet Union.

Crazy? Perhaps – but keep in mind the events of the age.

In 1958, the Soviet Union called for a ban on atmospheric nuclear testing and abided by a self-imposed moratorium. Eventually, the United States followed suit. During 1959, neither superpower tested any nukes, but the brief lull in testing did not last. Soon, both nations were back at it.

In 1961, the Soviets detonated the humongous “Tsar Bomba.” Though capable of a 100 megaton yield, scientists decided to dial back Tsar Bomba’s destructive power to reduce the chance of fallout. At about 50 megatons, it still is the most powerful nuclear explosion in history. In fact, Tsar Bomba was so powerful, its heat caused third-degree burns on the exposed flesh of Soviet observers more than 60 miles away.

Starfish Prime was really the third launch attempt for the U.S. – the first missile was destroyed seconds into its flight and the second blew up on the launch pad. Both incidents rained nuclear contamination down on the Johnston Island test facility.

Tsar Bomba
The Tsar BombaYouTube

But on July 9, 1962, the third Thor missile performed flawlessly and lifted its payload into space.

The 1.4 megaton warhead detonated about 240 miles above the Pacific Ocean – and then all hell broke loose.

Gunny
12-14-2017, 05:56 PM
Time machine and listen to MacArthur?

I talked to a guy who was in the DMZ probably 15 years ago. He said if the north attacked.. By the time we or the south could respond, 80000 South Koreans would be killed? That the north has them in their cross hairs 24/7?Maybe. On both. We made a LOT of unnecessary enemies fearing communism. It was going to fail and history has proven it so.

More like if you're going for the mythical "time machine", you go back and duct tape FDR's mouth petering the Hell out of Stalin to open a second front against Japan. We didn't need it. Byt the time Stalin did, Germany was defeated and Japan was close. The cost? N. Korea. We probably should never have armed the Russians against Hitler. Fact is, Hitler and Stalin were "tight" until Hitler made his worst blunder of the war and attacked Russia. He could have beaten Europe otherwise.

As far as 8,000 dead S Koreans if N Korea attacked now? That WAS a plausible scenario when everyone was sitting around playing chicken but doing nothing but taking the occasional potshot. As it stands now with Trump basically surrounding the peninsula with the US Navy on alert? Doubtful.

IF the moron actually has a workable nuke, he could conceivably nuke the South and destroy it completely, but he would be nuking himself at the same time. Nuclear fallout doesn't recognize DMZs.

reedak
12-17-2017, 03:24 PM
Nonsense: it's all gone away by now. Come on, you know that as well as we do. I well recall when nuclear war and nuclear testing were both expected to end humanity, and many excellent novels and excellent quotes (Einstein: I don't know what WWIII will be fought with, but I know what WWIV will be fought with: rocks.) came out of all that. But nothing came of it, and all the nuked areas recovered...

It's all gone away by now? All the nuked areas recovered? You are talking with your head in the nuclear cloud. Without caring to do your homework on the internet, you are treating the readers as 3-year-old children.

According to http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3630359/Bikini-Atoll-uninhabitable-Radiation-island-exceeds-safety-standards-nearly-60-years-nuclear-tests.html

Bikini Atoll is STILL uninhabitable: Radiation on island exceeds safety standards nearly 60 years after nuclear tests. It was the site of twenty-three tests during the twelve year period, including the devastating detonation of a hydrogen bomb on March 1, 1954. If you go there to live for a year and still able to come back to spill your nonsense here, I shall take off my hat to you. :)

reedak
12-17-2017, 05:39 PM
So again ... it's gone this far. What's your proposed solution? And it isn't as simple as swatting a mosquito. It WAS. Now it isn't.

If a practical solution ever exists, a smart aleck like you won't be so generous as to give others the honour of proposing a solution on his lawn.

In response to your persistent demand for a proposed solution, I have posted a political satire to prove that there is no practical solution by the US to denuclearize North Korea.

1. In my story, the woodcutter's tribal leader tried to get his two counterparts to get rid of all the cesspools in the buffer zone. This is akin to the US asking Russia and China to send in armies into North Korea from the north to dismantle North Korea's nuclear arsenal while the US attacks the rogue state from the south. This is reminiscent of the US-Soviet alliance against Nazi Germany and the US-Sino alliance against Japan during World War II.

Such an alliance against North Korea, however, is practically impossible because of "distrust, self-interest and hostility between the two opposing sides" as pointed out by the priest in the story. It could become a reality if North Korea attacks China and Russia with nuclear missiles one day. (Please refer to the woodcutter's comment: "The problem may be resolved one day when the tribal leaders on the other side wake up to the reality of toxic fumes from the cesspools invading their homes and killing their people." The priest responded sarcastically: "Well, your people have to wait patiently for that fine day.")

However, that fine day may come sooner than expected if the US changes its policy towards the two powers by dangling a carrot in front instead of smacking on the rear with a stick. As a reward, it may have to recognise Russia's sovereignty over Crimea and China's sovereignty over the South China Sea or help speed up the reunification of China and Taiwan.

2. In the story, the woodcutter's tribal leader had also asked the other side to cover all the cesspools, but his two counterparts were not very keen on the idea. This is akin to Trump pressuring China and Russia to implement sanctions on North Korea but the two countries are not enthusiastic to do so.

In the story, the other two tribal leaders pledged measures in fight for clean air but they still kept a number of cesspools open for "the big business" of their people. Similarly, although China and Russia pledge to implement sanctions on North Korea, they have not cut off all economic ties with the rogue state. Using an analogy, after severing nine lifelines, they leave one lifeline intact for the drowning fat boy.

Anyway, I think the US is going in the right direction by applying sanctions on North Korea. There are signs that the rogue state is buckling under the pressure of sanctions. Hence the US must keep up the intense pressure on the rogue state, and if necessary, enforcing a naval blockade too.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?61279-Political-Satire-The-Old-Man-of-the-Mountain-(9)

Gunny
12-17-2017, 06:12 PM
If a practical solution ever exists, a smart aleck like you won't be so generous as to give others the honour of proposing a solution on his lawn.

In response to your persistent demand for a proposed solution, I have posted a political satire to prove that there is no practical solution by the US to denuclearize North Korea.

1. In my story, the woodcutter's tribal leader tried to get his two counterparts to get rid of all the cesspools in the buffer zone. This is akin to the US asking Russia and China to send in armies into North Korea from the north to dismantle North Korea's nuclear arsenal while the US attacks the rogue state from the south. This is reminiscent of the US-Soviet alliance against Nazi Germany and the US-Sino alliance against Japan during World War II. However, such an alliance against North Korea is practically impossible because of "distrust, self-interest and hostility between the two opposing sides" as pointed out by the priest in the story. It could become a reality if North Korea attacks China and Russia with nuclear missiles one day. (Please refer to the woodcutter's comment: "The problem may be resolved one day when the tribal leaders on the other side wake up to the reality of toxic fumes from the cesspools invading their homes and killing their people." The priest responded sarcastically: "Well, your people have to wait patiently for the arrival of that fine day.")

2. In the story, the woodcutter's tribal leader had also asked the other side to cover all the cesspools, but his two counterparts are not very keen on the idea. This is akin to Trump pressuring China and Russia to implement sanctions on North Korea but the two countries are not enthusiastic to do so.

In the story, the other two tribal leaders pledged measures in fight for clean air but they still kept a number of cesspools open for "the big business" of their people. Similarly, although China and Russia pledge to implement sanctions on North Korea, they have not sever all economic ties with the rogue state. Using an analogy, after cutting off nine lifelines, they leave one lifeline intact for the drowning fat boy.

Anyway, I think the US is going in the right direction in applying sanctions on North Korea. There are signs that the rogue state is buckling under the pressure of sanctions. Hence the US must keep up the intense pressure on the rogue state, and if necessary, enforcing a naval blockade too.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?61279-Political-Satire-The-Old-Man-of-the-Mountain-(9)First off, I am NOT being a smart alleck. And contrary to your assumption, that is EXACTLY what I allowed my Marines to do. I wouldn't have asked if it wasn't practice. That does NOT mean I'm going to use your idea, it means I am going to consider its possibilities. And it teaches Marines to think on their own. If I get taken out, my SGT has to step up and complete the mission. Can't do it if he doesn't know how.

So, you believe the sanctions are working and keeping up the pressure will end well. Possibly. Now, play risk-taker. Where is the fat boy's "out"? He's got to save face or he seems willing to take everyone and everything down the drain with him and will pull the plug himself. This is about his delusional view of himself and his importance in world affairs.

China and Russia are going to ride the fence as long as they can. They can't openly take our side because of perception. They don't want to lose face either.'

So ... how do you get 4 massive ego's to not cause the obliteration of the planet? Because EGO is ALL this boils down to. The "problem child" is the fat boy. What makes him stop? Give in and he wins, AND the left wins here at home because they'll use throw that in Trump's face every time they can, never remembering that it is THEIR policies that have led to this point.

The correct and easiest and best for all concerned answer is China pulls his plug. The question becomes how to get China to do that.

High_Plains_Drifter
12-17-2017, 06:17 PM
First off, I am NOT being a smart alleck. And contrary to your assumption, that is EXACTLY what I allowed my Marines to do. I wouldn't have asked if it wasn't practice. That does NOT mean I'm going to use your idea, it means I am going to consider its possibilities. And it teaches Marines to think on their own. If I get taken out, my SGT has to step up and complete the mission. Can't do it if he doesn't know how.

So, you believe the sanctions are working and keeping up the pressure will end well. Possibly. Now, play risk-taker. Where is the fat boy's "out"? He's got to save face or he seems willing to take everyone and everything down the drain with him and will pull the plug himself. This is about his delusional view of himself and his importance in world affairs.

China and Russia are going to ride the fence as long as they can. They can't openly take our side because of perception. They don't want to lose face either.'

So ... how do you get 4 massive ego's to not cause the obliteration of the planet? Because EGO is ALL this boils down to. The "problem child" is the fat boy. What makes him stop? Give in and he wins, AND the left wins here at home because they'll use throw that in Trump's face every time they can, never remembering that it is THEIR policies that have led to this point.

The correct and easiest and best for all concerned answer is China pulls his plug. The question becomes how to get China to do that.
Trade war.

Gunny
12-17-2017, 06:22 PM
Trade war.I don't think in this case that is the answer. Now DO remember I AM a Gunny, but I think diplomacy with China would be a better answer. Creating Kim Dum Fuk's twin is not in our best interest.

Problem there is the ONLY thing I can think of we have to trade is our protection of Taiwan, and our presence in the Far East. Guess we could promise to pay back the money Obama borrowed from them ....

High_Plains_Drifter
12-17-2017, 06:28 PM
I don't think in this case that is the answer. Now DO remember I AM a Gunny, but I think diplomacy with China would be a better answer. Creating Kim Dum Fuk's twin is not in our best interest.

Problem there is the ONLY thing I can think of we have to trade is our protection of Taiwan, and our presence in the Far East. Guess we could promise to pay back the money Obama borrowed from them ....
The thing is, China's economy depends a whole lot more an America than America depends on China's.

Trump has a "Trump card" to play there. I don't know how many times I've read that China's economy is teetering on the brink. Threatening a nice stiff tariff on their garbage shipped to America could be all it takes. Surely we don't want to alienate China, but what's worse? WWIII or a couple tough years while China decides NOKO isn't worth losing it's most preferred trading status with America?

Gunny
12-17-2017, 06:34 PM
The thing is, China's economy depends a whole lot more an America than America depends on China's.

Trump has a "Trump card" to play there. I don't know how many times I've read that China's economy is teetering on the brink. Threatening a nice stiff tariff on their garbage shipped to America could be all it takes.I'm not sure that has sunk in. China DOES have a vested interest in the health of the US economy. We makee no wan, we payee no wan.

That however would be a rather hard line to take and would hurt us and probably most of the world as badly as China. I would just ask what they want to make the fat guy shut up and go away. That alone has its risks, giving China a feeling of superiority. But it doesn't hurt to try.

And just to throw a wrench into the works, I suspect NKorea is dealing with Iran. Then what?

High_Plains_Drifter
12-17-2017, 07:22 PM
I'm not sure that has sunk in. China DOES have a vested interest in the health of the US economy. We makee no wan, we payee no wan.

That however would be a rather hard line to take and would hurt us and probably most of the world as badly as China. I would just ask what they want to make the fat guy shut up and go away. That alone has its risks, giving China a feeling of superiority. But it doesn't hurt to try.

And just to throw a wrench into the works, I suspect NKorea is dealing with Iran. Then what?
I think if either one of us knew what the TSA or CIA knows about China, we'd both have a better solution... :laugh:

Who knows... China and Russia both know that fat little inbred mouth breathing tard is a pain in America's ass, so they're not going to be chomping at the bit to do anything about him, we know that, so we have find an angle, and damn if I know what that is, other than if that little fucker starts a massive war, there goes their economies and good times too, because if we're hurtin', they're going to hurt to. So what's it going to be, get rid of the pie faced punk and continue to have good trade, or everybody suffer. Seems like a no brainer to me.