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Gunny
02-01-2018, 09:01 AM
WARSAW (Reuters) – Polish lawmakers approved a bill on Thursday that would impose jail terms for suggesting Poland was complicit in the Holocaust drawing concern from the United States and outrage from Israel, which denounced “any attempt to challenge historical truth”.

Poland’s ruling Law and Justice party (PiS) says the bill is needed to protect Poland’s reputation and ensure historians recognize that Poles as well as Jews perished under the Nazis. Israeli officials said it criminalizes basic historical facts.
The Senate voted on the bill in the early hours on Thursday and it will now be sent to President Andrzej Duda for signature.
“We, the Poles, were victims, as were the Jews,” Deputy Prime Minister Beata Szydlo, a senior PiS figure and supporter of the law, said on Wednesday before the vote. “It is a duty of every Pole to defend the good name of Poland. Just as the Jews, we were victims.”
Under the proposed legislation, violators would face three years in prison for mentioning the term “Polish death camps”, although the bill says scientific research into World War Two would not be constrained.
Israel “adamantly opposes” the bill’s approval, the Israeli Foreign Ministry said on Thursday.
“Israel views with utmost gravity any attempt to challenge historical truth. No law will change the facts,” ministry spokesman Emmanuel Nahshon said on Twitter.
Israeli Housing Minister Yoav Galant, one of several cabinet ministers to denounce the bill, told Israel’s Army Radio that he considered it “de facto Holocaust denial”.



More than three million of Poland’s 3.2 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis, accounting for around half of the Jews killed in the Holocaust. Jews from across Europe were sent to be killed at death camps built and operated by the Germans on Polish soil, including Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor.
According to figures from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, the Germans also killed at least 1.9 million non-Jewish Polish civilians.
Many thousands of Poles risked their lives to protect their Jewish neighbors; Israel’s Yad Vashem Holocaust center recognizes 6,706 Poles as “righteous among nations” for bravery in resisting the Holocaust, more than any other nationality.
But Poland has also gone through a painful public debate in recent years about guilt and reconciliation over the Holocaust, after the publication of research showing some Poles participated in the Nazi German atrocities. Many Poles have refused to accept such findings, which have challenged a national narrative that the country was solely a victim.
more:http://www.oann.com/polish-lawmakers-back-holocaust-bill-drawing-israeli-outrage-u-s-concern/

An interesting debate. I don't agree with Israel's stance. I DO agree that the law prohibits free speech. What I DON'T see is exactly what is "free speech" in Poland. I don't see that the US State Department had any real need to comment. It's none of our business.

I believe we cater too much to the Jewish cry of antisemitism and Holocaust denial. That's not saying "Gunny hates Jews" for the gravyboats out there. It's saying while the Holocaust was indeed an important fact in history, it was a blip on the radar of history the Jews have us re-living every day as if it is still happening. Kind of like blacks do with the slavery issue.

If 3.1M of the Jews were POLISH Jews, I could see Poland taking issue with the Jewish blame-game wanting to state Poland took part in the Holocaust. Indeed, they did. As victims. 3.1 Polish Jews is roughly HALF the Jews murdered during the Holocaust, and it happened in THEIR country. I can see them having an opinion on the matter.

Typical left wing BS to me. The 3M don't count because "some" sided with the bad guys.

Gunny
02-01-2018, 09:26 AM
To add, and just to get Pete and Gabriella to call me a racist and anti-semitic:

What I don't like about AMERICAN Jews? First, one is not antisemitic for simply not liking Jews. Judaism is a religion. Israeli's are Arabs or of Arab descent. They are semites like the rest. To be antisemitc one has to hate ALL Arabs. Religion is not a race.

Second, American Jews are stupid. Not necessarily because of their religion; although, it is hard to divorce the two. But because Jewish Americans vote lock, stock and barrel for a party that has all but sold Israel out to terrorists nd a terrorist state (Iran in the Middle East). Obama openly snubbed Israel while courting both "Palestine" and Iran, the two biggest threats to Israel. Yet they drone right up and vote for the imbecile.

Trump on the other hand, is having a love-fest with Israel and they HATE him when he's all they could ever hope for. Pissed off I ran and Palestine, and moving our embassy to where Israel wants it.

Spells "stupid" from where I'm sitting.

darin
02-01-2018, 09:36 AM
guess I dont know who gives a shit about things like this - I mean..it's a non-issue.

Gunny
02-01-2018, 09:49 AM
guess I dont know who gives a shit about things like this - I mean..it's a non-issue.I doubt it'll spoil my dinner, but it's as interest as anything else, I guess. Poland and Israel apparently find it quite contentious.

Would think you would have a different attitude living in Germany (a foreign country). I love reading about stuff in foreign countries. Been to enough of them. My world-view doesn't begin and end with Washington DC and US politics. I find some places quite intriguing. Like this:

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180131-where-dutch-directness-comes-from

Coupled with the fact I haven't seen an ugly Dutch chick yet, it sounds like my kind of place. :)

darin
02-01-2018, 10:00 AM
I doubt it'll spoil my dinner, but it's as interest as anything else, I guess. Poland and Israel apparently find it quite contentious.

Would think you would have a different attitude living in Germany (a foreign country). I love reading about stuff in foreign countries. Been to enough of them. My world-view doesn't begin and end with Washington DC and US politics. I find some places quite intriguing. Like this:

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180131-where-dutch-directness-comes-from

Coupled with the fact I haven't seen an ugly Dutch chick yet, it sounds like my kind of place. :)

i'm sorry - I wasnt commenting on the post; I'm wondering why Poland considers this, and whey the jews give two shits at this point.

Black Diamond
02-01-2018, 10:03 AM
i'm sorry - I wasnt commenting on the post; I'm wondering why Poland considers this, and whey the jews give two shits at this point.
it's a sensitive issue. probably always will be.

Elessar
02-01-2018, 10:38 AM
A tough one.

It is not a "forgive and forget" issue by any means or definition. It was and
always will be a human disaster.

But, one cannot keep dwelling on it year after year. That is emotionally
self-destructive.

Build the appropriate memorials and move on. Yes, never forget how one
ideolgy affected so many. That should be the example offered.

High_Plains_Drifter
02-01-2018, 11:17 AM
I doubt it'll spoil my dinner, but it's as interest as anything else, I guess. Poland and Israel apparently find it quite contentious.

Would think you would have a different attitude living in Germany (a foreign country). I love reading about stuff in foreign countries. Been to enough of them. My world-view doesn't begin and end with Washington DC and US politics. I find some places quite intriguing. Like this:

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180131-where-dutch-directness-comes-from

Coupled with the fact I haven't seen an ugly Dutch chick yet, it sounds like my kind of place. :)
Maaaaaan... wouldn't a Dutch person have a fun time in an ultra politically correct place like kullyfornia? ... :laugh:

pete311
02-01-2018, 11:19 AM
I think this is a response to the general situation in Poland and other eastern blocks where antisemitism, racism and authoritarian groups are starting to flourish.

Gunny
02-01-2018, 11:51 AM
I think this is a response to the general situation in Poland and other eastern blocks where antisemitism, racism and authoritarian groups are starting to flourish.I do not. I think it is in response to the accusation of antisemitism/racism. More PC bull. Happens in our country every day. Look at the Russia investigation. PERFECT example. Millions and the attention of a nation wasted on rumors.

I don't see a law as necessary. I see people who are still trying to make others live in the past. THAT I DO blame on Jews. They've been wearing their "victim" ring for 70 years or so. It's their identity and they won't let anyone forget it. To move on would be to give away their leverage. As long as the guilt trip works, they're going to play it.

I see it as unnecessary as a law to quash it.

pete311
02-01-2018, 11:56 AM
I do not. I think it is in response to the accusation of antisemitism/racism. More PC bull. Happens in our country every day. Look at the Russia investigation. PERFECT example. Millions and the attention of a nation wasted on rumors.

I don't see a law as necessary. I see people who are still trying to make others live in the past. THAT I DO blame on Jews. They've been wearing their "victim" ring for 70 years or so. It's their identity and they won't let anyone forget it. To move on would be to give away their leverage. As long as the guilt trip works, they're going to play it.

I see it as unnecessary as a law to quash it.

You can accept the reality of the situation in Poland and still be against the law ya know.

Abbey Marie
02-01-2018, 12:34 PM
Maaaaaan... wouldn't a Dutch person have a fun time in an ultra politically correct place like kullyfornia? ... :laugh:

Talk about worlds colliding.

As for the topic at hand, Poland was indeed a victim of the Nazis, and the fact that a few collaborated shouldn’t change that fact. I wouldn’t want my country being associated with death camps that were essentially forced upon it. But making it illegal speech goes too far.

I agree with Gunny that the US should stay out of it. Why must we get the involved in things that really aren’t our business?

Gunny
02-01-2018, 12:39 PM
You can accept the reality of the situation in Poland and still be against the law ya know.Whose reality? You mean the facts in the OP? I have not disputed them.

Your opinion is PC, knee-jerk default apologist, not the reality in Poland. I'm against the law AND apologizing when the Poles were as much victims of the Holocaust as the Jews. In the case of the Poles, they happened to be both -- Poles and Jews. That Jews from other countries somehow fee "more" victim is just hogwash.

Black Diamond
02-01-2018, 12:50 PM
Whose reality? You mean the facts in the OP? I have not disputed them.

Your opinion is PC, knee-jerk default apologist, not the reality in Poland. I'm against the law AND apologizing when the Poles were as much victims of the Holocaust as the Jews. In the case of the Poles, they happened to be both -- Poles and Jews. That Jews from other countries somehow fee "more" victim is just hogwash.
The plan was to kill all the poles and all the Russians. The Jews were just the beginning. Hitler was going to murder 150 million people to the east of him.

Gunny
02-01-2018, 01:20 PM
The plan was to kill all the poles and all the Russians. The Jews were just the beginning. Hitler was going to murder 150 million people to the east of him.Hitler's problem was he was Hitler. He was saddled with his own delusional mind. He could have won WWII in Europe otherwise but for being a dumbass in general. Obviously numbers was not his strong suit.

If ^M Jews were murdered during the Holocaust, from throughout Europe and Poland accounted for 3.1M I'd say they no less victims than any other Jews, and I guarantee you Poland wasn't the Lone Ranger where collaborators are concerned.

I am wondering why Israel is so insistent on pinning a label on Polish Jews. Case of pot meet kettle? Polish Jews aren't "real" Jews? I mean, what gives? There has to be more to it than meets the eye for Poland to go so far as to draft a law.

In any case, Simon Wiesenthal is dead and any NAZI STILL alive from WWII? Screw 'em. They got away with it and are rotting at this point. If they were part of anything when they were 20 they're STILL 90 or older NOW.

Time to move on.

High_Plains_Drifter
02-01-2018, 01:41 PM
Hitler's problem was he was Hitler. He was saddled with his own delusional mind. He could have won WWII in Europe otherwise but for being a dumbass in general. Obviously numbers was not his strong suit.

If ^M Jews were murdered during the Holocaust, from throughout Europe and Poland accounted for 3.1M I'd say they no less victims than any other Jews, and I guarantee you Poland wasn't the Lone Ranger where collaborators are concerned.

I am wondering why Israel is so insistent on pinning a label on Polish Jews. Case of pot meet kettle? Polish Jews aren't "real" Jews? I mean, what gives? There has to be more to it than meets the eye for Poland to go so far as to draft a law.

In any case, Simon Wiesenthal is dead and any NAZI STILL alive from WWII? Screw 'em. They got away with it and are rotting at this point. If they were part of anything when they were 20 they're STILL 90 or older NOW.

Time to move on.
If Hitler would have never attacked Russia, he would have never lost a battle. He was completely retarded for invading Russia and starting a major war on 2 fronts. He just hated the Russians as much as he hated the Jews, and the Poles, and basically anyone that wasn't Germanic. He also had grand plans to invade America. Hitler was a fool, he was consumed with hatred, his own generals tried to kill him because they knew he was leading them to defeat with his hatred.

Many top Nazis did escape after the war. If any of you have been watching the series on "Hunting Hitler," you've been seeing just how many did, and their destination was Argentina. My bet is there's still a thriving segment in areas of Argentina that pure Nazi. I also don't believe Hitler killed himself. I think it was a double or something they found burning in a trench outside his bunker. No way in HELL do I believe that this megalomaniac would just GIVE UP and POP HIMSELF in the head, no... way. He escaped.