Want Socialized Medicine? Great. I'd Be Dead

[-Cp]

A good article from someone who would've died under Socialized Medicine:

http://sippicancottage.blogspot.com/2007/08/want-socialized-medicine-great-id-be.html

[darin]

everytime I hear about sociaized Medicine I think of my experience dealing with the VA Health Care system. It blows - no offense to the employees - it's just the Govt does a MUCH better job killing people and keeping them safe, than treating them.

[glockmail]

everytime I hear about sociaized Medicine I think of my experience dealing with the VA Health Care system. It blows - no offense to the employees - it's just the Govt does a MUCH better job killing people and keeping them safe, than treating them. No shit. My uncle got major messed up in a VA hospital- Charleston Naval Yard. He went in for a broken leg, buff, late 20's, one year out of the Mrines, and came out 18 months later a drug addict and 20# of steel in his leg.

[Hagbard Celine]

So right now all of England and France and Canada and Norway and etc. all have longer life spans and better health than US residents because their government healthcare systems don't work? Riiiiight. Can you guys mail me some of what you're smoking?

[darin]

So right now all of England and France and Canada and Norway and etc. all have longer life spans and better health than US residents because their government healthcare systems don't work? Riiiiight. Can you guys mail me some of what you're smoking?

First you'd need to prove the connection between obscene taxes/socialized Medicine and 'longer life spans'. You'd also have to quantify what 'better' means in your 'better health care' claim.

[Trigg]

So right now all of England and France and Canada and Norway and etc. all have longer life spans and better health than US residents because their government healthcare systems don't work? Riiiiight. Can you guys mail me some of what you're smoking?

Are you reading what people are writing??? They are saying...and rightly so....that the US gov. does a crappy job at the hospitals they are in charge of right now. I'd hate to see what they'd do if put in charge of all the other hospitals.

[Hagbard Celine]

First you'd need to prove the connection between obscene taxes/socialized Medicine and 'longer life spans'. You'd also have to quantify what 'better' means in your 'better health care' claim.

I didn't mention taxes here. The connection is that all these countries have government healthcare that covers all citizens and coincidentally, all of these countries' citizens live longer than US citizens. They also have lower infant mortality rates. Lower obesity rates, etc. -I know that's not related to healthcare per se, but still...http://breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QV0C5O2&show_article=1

We all know US citizens pay more per capita for healthcare than any other country on Earth. Yet we have more citizens who aren't covered than any other western country and we rank 42nd in the world for lifespans. What are we paying for? And how can we say we stand for protecting human life when a huge amount of our own citizens aren't even covered if they get sick? It's a joke.

[Hagbard Celine]

Are you reading what people are writing??? They are saying...and rightly so....that the US gov. does a crappy job at the hospitals they are in charge of right now. I'd hate to see what they'd do if put in charge of all the other hospitals.

Well then I guess we're stuck. It seems the only options are "incompetent US government" or money-hungry corporations who don't give a flying sh*t about you or me. I don't like either choice.

[darin]

I didn't mention taxes here. The connection is that all these countries have government healthcare that covers all citizens and coincidentally, all of these countries' citizens live longer than US citizens. They also have lower infant mortality rates. Lower obesity rates, etc. -I know that's not related to healthcare per se, but still...http://breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QV0C5O2&show_article=1


Socialized Medicine = Vile, offensive, HUGE tax increases. None of those claims you've made have anything to do with Socialized Medicine - there is no cause and effect.



We all know US citizens pay more per capita for healthcare than any other country on Earth.

...because we let Health Care remain largely Private.


Yet we have more citizens who aren't covered than any other western country and we rank 42nd in the world for lifespans. What are we paying for? And how can we say we stand for protecting human life when a huge amount of our own citizens aren't even covered if they get sick? It's a joke.

Health Insurance isn't a right. Not having health insurance is ONLY a problem for sick people. You don't stand for protecting human life - it's horrible you, of all people, raise that standard.

[Hagbard Celine]

Socialized Medicine = Vile, offensive, HUGE tax increases. None of those claims you've made have anything to do with Socialized Medicine - there is no cause and effect.



...because we let Health Care remain largely Private.



Health Insurance isn't a right. Not having health insurance is ONLY a problem for sick people. You don't stand for protecting human life - it's horrible you, of all people, raise that standard.

Of course you're referring to my pro-abortion stance. Which is a misnomer. I'm not FOR abortion. I recognize it as a necessity in a free society. What you're saying is that living, breathing people don't deserve to be taken care of when they get sick or injured. To me, this is more evil and horrid than anything I can think of short of dropping someone off in the middle of the desert naked and wishing them luck.

[Monkeybone]

how many of the places that have a higher life span and lower obseity rates lack a McDonalds. that is what's wrong with the US. MICKYD"S! damn them and there semi-cheap and fast serving food in all of it's artery clogging goodness. and the UK..you can't even get peanut butter there without going to certain stores...i mean come on!

so with taxes being hiked up wouldn't it be the same as having an insurance plan anyways?

for the ton of Westeners that don't have insurance, how many are illegals? or theirs just haven't activated yet? or some ppl even chose not to have the stuff so they can have the extra money in the pocket.

would they be able to make a socialized med for ppl that want it and then ppl that don't want it don't have to have and can keep the private policy? isn't there also a good number of ppl that, yes there is socialized med, but they have private anyways?

[Trigg]

Canada's healthcare system.


http://chealth.canoe.ca/channel_section_details.asp?text_id=2994&channel_id=7&relation_id=3621

Surveys report that more than 4 million Canadians can't find a family physician to care for them. In 2002, it was estimated that Canada was short 3000 family physicians, and that the situation was getting worse. In 2004, it was estimated that another 1400 family physicians would retire in the following two years.



http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/page9.html

1. Individually, Canadians spend about $3300 per capita on health care.

2. While the health care system in Canada covers basic services, including primary care physicians and hospitals, there are many services that are not covered. These include things like dental services, optometrists, and prescription medications.

3. For those requiring services that may not be covered under provincial health insurance such as corrective lenses, medications, or home care, a private insurance plan offsets such medical expenses.

[Nukeman]

I posted this in another thread...

The Canadian Health System has many flaws, one of which is the under staffing of physicians.

10% of ALL Canadians can not even get into see a General Practicioner due to no more time or space in their VERY busy schedules. (thts 3.3 million people almost half of the chronicly US citizens that are without insurance for more than 2 years)

The average wait time for Diagnostic services (lab, x-ray, cardiac sreening) is 3 weeks. Once you get into seeing your specialist tht you waited 4 weeks to get into see, of course than you have to wait an average of 4 weeks to get into the surgical center to have your non-emergent surgery.

For those of you keeping count that is 11 weeks to have your surgery.



This same situation in the US takes less than a week on most cases..


As for the Life expectancy, do you really mean to tell me that .3-2 years difference is really about the health care... Or is it more likely diet, lifestyle, or as in most European countries LESS WORK. The average US worker puts in substantialy more hours per year than their European counter part.

Let us not forget that when we look at life expectancies it only takes a couple of "gang bangers" to drasticly bring down the curve.. If you have one person live to be 100 and one dies in gang violence at the age of 16 their combined life expectancy is 58 now is that really a measure of our health system.....

[darin]

What you're saying is that living, breathing people don't deserve to be taken care of when they get sick or injured.


www.rif.org

www.hop.org

BOTH of those sites MAY help your comprehension.

[Nukeman]

www.rif.org

www.hop.org

BOTH of those sites MAY help your comprehension.
:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I love it!!!!!!!!!!!

[-Cp]

I didn't mention taxes here. The connection is that all these countries have government healthcare that covers all citizens and coincidentally, all of these countries' citizens live longer than US citizens. They also have lower infant mortality rates. Lower obesity rates, etc. -I know that's not related to healthcare per se, but still...http://breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QV0C5O2&show_article=1

We all know US citizens pay more per capita for healthcare than any other country on Earth. Yet we have more citizens who aren't covered than any other western country and we rank 42nd in the world for lifespans. What are we paying for? And how can we say we stand for protecting human life when a huge amount of our own citizens aren't even covered if they get sick? It's a joke.


Our ranking in mortality rates have NOTHING to do w/ the health-care and EVERYTHING to do with too many folks can't seem to go on the "STOP-EATING-SO-DAMNED-MUCH-DIET"....

[Hagbard Celine]

how many of the places that have a higher life span and lower obseity rates lack a McDonalds. that is what's wrong with the US. MICKYD"S! damn them and there semi-cheap and fast serving food in all of it's artery clogging goodness. and the UK..you can't even get peanut butter there without going to certain stores...i mean come on!

so with taxes being hiked up wouldn't it be the same as having an insurance plan anyways?

for the ton of Westeners that don't have insurance, how many are illegals? or theirs just haven't activated yet? or some ppl even chose not to have the stuff so they can have the extra money in the pocket.

would they be able to make a socialized med for ppl that want it and then ppl that don't want it don't have to have and can keep the private policy? isn't there also a good number of ppl that, yes there is socialized med, but they have private anyways?
Have you ever been to London? There's a McDonald's on every corner! The same is true in Paris, The Netherlands and Belgium. It's not that they don't have fast food. They have it. The difference is that they don't make their poor citizens suffer without healthcare.

[Trigg]

Have you ever been to London? There's a McDonald's on every corner! The same is true in Paris, The Netherlands and Belgium. It's not that they don't have fast food. They have it. The difference is that they don't make their poor citizens suffer without healthcare.

Really, when was the last time you saw a hospital refuse treatment????? NEVER that's when.

I'll put this in caps since your having trouble today.

HOSPITALS CAN NOT REFUSE TREATMENT BECAUSE OF A PERSONS INABILITY TO PAY.

So......poor citizens are not being made to "suffer without healthcare".

[Nukeman]

Have you ever been to London? There's a McDonald's on every corner! The same is true in Paris, The Netherlands and Belgium. It's not that they don't have fast food. They have it. The difference is that they don't make their poor citizens suffer without healthcare.No they make them suffer with their under staffed, over utilized system.. They wait in pain for limited services...

What good is coverage if you cant get in to see your Doctor or get specialized testing done.

Right to healthcare does not mean a right to stand in a VERY long line...

[Hagbard Celine]

Really, when was the last time you saw a hospital refuse treatment????? NEVER that's when.

I'll put this in caps since your having trouble today.

HOSPITALS CAN NOT REFUSE TREATMENT BECAUSE OF A PERSONS INABILITY TO PAY.

So......poor citizens are not being made to "suffer without healthcare".

Most don't go because they can't afford the outrageous costs. Did you really think I didn't know emergency rooms can't not treat someone in an emergency? That's not the problem. The problem is when people are bankrupted or put into debt for the rest of their lives just because they needed medical care to save their life. Many, many people simply forego medical treatment because they know they can't afford it or because they know they can't afford insurance.

[Hagbard Celine]

No they make them suffer with their under staffed, over utilized system.. They wait in pain for limited services...

What good is coverage if you cant get in to see your Doctor or get specialized testing done.

Right to healthcare does not mean a right to stand in a VERY long line...

We also have an under staffed, over utilized system. The difference is that we pay out the wazoo for ours.

What good is coverage when your insurance company refuses to pay-out on your claim???

Have you been to an urban emergency room lately? You have this cartoon image from the Cold War of people standing in line to get bread. Are you really naive or moronic enough to believe that citizens in the UK and France and Canada and every other western country stand in long lines at the hospital and get inadequate care? I swear to god it's frustrating "debating" with someone who has a child's view of the world. :bang3:

[Trigg]

Most don't go because they can't afford the outrageous costs. Did you really think I didn't know emergency rooms can't not treat someone in an emergency? That's not the problem. The problem is when people are bankrupted or put into debt for the rest of their lives just because they needed medical care to save their life. Many, many people simply forego medical treatment because they know they can't afford it or because they know they can't afford insurance.

There are already MANY MANY gov. programs for people with low incomes who need insurance....and no I'm not going to list them again.

[Hagbard Celine]

There are already MANY MANY gov. programs for people with low incomes who need insurance....and no I'm not going to list them again.

So I guess the reason people die and go into debt due to an inability to afford coverage is because they're ignorant about the bounty of already available government health insurance programs? C'mon man. What a crock.

[Trigg]

Are you really naive or moronic enough to believe that citizens in the UK and France and Canada and every other western country stand in long lines at the hospital and get inadaquate care? I swear to god it's frustrating "debating" with someone who has a child's view of the world. :bang3:

Here I'll answer for him.


I really need to get you on the phone with my sister who lives in Finland, when she is telling me about her 2 month wait for an MRI.

To put this into perspective, today at work we got a call from a Dr's office wanting an MRI, they had to wait 2 hours before they were seen....and they'll have the results tomorrow..................sooner if the doc listens to the dictation line.

[darin]

We also have an under staffed, over utilized system. The difference is that we pay out the wazoo for ours.


....except the only ppl who pay for it are those who get sick. Not counting insurance premiums. Still - 'dmp's' family shouldn't have to pay for your family's medical care. Absolutely not.

[Trigg]

So I guess the reason people die and go into debt due to an inability to afford coverage is because they're ignorant about the bounty of already available government health insurance programs? C'mon man. What a crock.

Run over and check out little acorns thread about the Canadian quads born...not in Canada....but here in the US.

[Hagbard Celine]

Here I'll answer for him.


I really need to get you on the phone with my sister who lives in Finland, when she is telling me about her 2 month wait for an MRI.

To put this into perspective, today at work we got a call from a Dr's office wanting an MRI, they had to wait 2 hours before they were seen....and they'll have the results tomorrow..................sooner if the doc listens to the dictation line.

And I'm guessing this doesn't have anything to do with the fact that your sister isn't a Finnish citizen, that Finland has less doctors and nurses per capita than the US or that they have fewer MRI machines but it has everything to do with the public healthcare system? The reason this isn't true in France is because France has more doctors and nurses per capita than the US, the UK and Finland. Wait times are dramatically decreased there because France pays its doctors a little less than they make here and they invest the savings in the public healthcare infrastructure.

You guys do realize that you're arguing in favor of for-profit healthcare right? When you turn medical care into a commodity, it's guaranteed that people at the bottom are going to be left out. It also guarantees that prices are artificially hiked up to increase corporate profiteering. This is our wellbeing--our lives we're talking about. It's sickening to me.

[Monkeybone]

i don't think a 'literal' line was meant Hag. just the time waiting for something when they feel like doing it. and i didn't say that UK and them didn't have McD's, i said no peanut butter numbnuts. sheesh haggy :cheers2:

they suffer, they just have to wait a few months until they get their free health care with the high taxes. some of them don't even go to the doctor cause they know by the time that they can get in it would make no difference. and theses programs that they can get, they one that don't have it usually lack it becaue they do't feel like leaving their welfare paid for trailer to sign a paper that says i need help. i am all for the system that covers underage kids, don't punish them for the rents lack of trying. but at the same time from the underagers that i have seen, most if the parents incurance don't cover it, medicaid picks it up anyways

[Hagbard Celine]

....except the only ppl who pay for it are those who get sick. Not counting insurance premiums. Still - 'dmp's' family shouldn't have to pay for your family's medical care. Absolutely not.

My family is healthy for the most part. Personally I haven't been to the doctor or dentist--except once in college for a terrible sore throat--in atleast six or seven years. None of us has cancer. None of our men have heart attacks. Nobody gets alzheimers.

But IF we were to, it would cost us a fortune and we'd be left to the whims of insurance adjusters as to whether or not we'd even get reimbursed for our care. What kind of "insurance" is that? Personally I don't like being a commodity for some asshat corporation. Healthcare is a service that I want to be able to utilize when I need it. I'm even willing to pay a reasonable price, but the way things are, I have to pay exorbitant amounts of my paycheck to a middle-man insurance company that may or may not decide to cover me in the event of a health emergency depending on the variables involved. Me no likey.

[Trigg]

And I'm guessing this doesn't have anything to do with the fact that your sister isn't a Finnish citizen, that Finland has less doctors and nurses per capita than the US or that they have fewer MRI machines but it has everything to do with the public healthcare system? The reason this isn't true in France is because France has more doctors and nurses per capita than the US, the UK and Finland. Wait times are dramatically decreased there because France pays its doctors a little less than they make here and they invest the savings in the public healthcare infrastructure.

You guys do realize that you're arguing in favor of for-profit healthcare right? When you turn medical care into a commodity, it's guaranteed that people at the bottom are going to be left out. It also guarantees that prices are artificially hiked up to increase corporate profiteering. This is our wellbeing--our lives we're talking about. It's sickening to me.



Wrong...she is a citizen....married to a citizen....and mother to two little citizens.

One reason they have fewer Dr's is because people aren't thrilled to go to school for 7 yrs and come out making as much as the plumber.

There are many hospitals that are NOT FOR PROFIT. I know, I work for one.

Do you work in healthcare????? Does anyone in your family???????

[truthmatters]

This was not socialized medicine that did that to him.

[Hagbard Celine]

Wrong...she is a citizen....married to a citizen....and mother to two little citizens.

One reason they have fewer Dr's is because people aren't thrilled to go to school for 7 yrs and come out making as much as the plumber.

There are many hospitals that are NOT FOR PROFIT. I know, I work for one.

Do you work in healthcare????? Does anyone in your family???????

No doctor in the western world makes as little as a plumber. Do you think I was born yesterday?
Good for your sister.
Dude, I've got news for you. If you work for the US healthcare system, you work in a for-profit system. That's how our system is set up. HMOs don't get rich by providing care for everyone who files a claim with them. That's what's f*cked up about our system. If you have a medical emergency and you also pay to have an HMO, you should be covered. But that's not always the case. Many, many claims are denied and people are forced to pay out of pocket, which throws them into debt. And if they have cronic problems, their health also declines due to their inablity to pay for care. And if you can't even afford to have an HMO? You're f*cked. Because if you can't afford to pay a monthly premium, you sure as hell can't afford to pay for medical costs.

[Monkeybone]

My family is healthy for the most part. Personally I haven't been to the doctor or dentist--except once in college for a terrible sore throat--in atleast six or seven years. None of us has cancer. None of our men have heart attacks. Nobody gets alzheimers.

But IF we were to, it would cost us a fortune and we'd be left to the whims of insurance adjusters as to whether or not we'd even get reimbursed for our care. What kind of "insurance" is that? Personally I don't like being a commodity for some asshat corporation. Healthcare is a service that I want to be able to utilize when I need it. I'm even willing to pay a reasonable price, but the way things are, I have to pay exorbitant amounts of my paycheck to a middle-man insurance company that may or may not decide to cover me in the event of a health emergency depending on the variables involved. Me no likey.

my Dad has cancer and now he has it again. one of those ppl that never smoked or anything, just after a test that led to another test it was hey! surprise! you have cancer. he is being very well taken care of and thankfully it was done right away. if they would've waited who know how much it could have spread. and the only thing that has 'broken the finacial' back really is the gas to drive to places for treatments. not the doctors, or the radiation treatments, or the pills that cost 200 bucks a pill, not the chemo that he is in right now that cost a shit load....but gas. gas paying for the driving. should insurance cover that? that would be kinda cool now that i said/think of that...hmmm

how would you like the tax hike for 'free' medical treatment? yah the gov pays for it and woooo! it's 'free' but how does the gov pay for everything else? taxes. the gov would probably also run it like the VA and then we would have plenty of docs! casue they do'nt have to have an american medical liscense! yah! Dr. Akmhehede that practiced on cows can do your surgery.

[Trigg]

No doctor in the western world makes as little as a plumber. Do you think I was born yesterday?
Good for your sister.
Dude, I've got news for you. If you work for the US healthcare system, you work in a for-profit system. That's how our system is set up. HMOs don't get rich by providing care for everyone who files a claim with them. That's what's f*cked up about our system. If you have a medical emergency and you also pay to have an HMO, you should be covered. But that's not always the case. Many, many claims are denied and people are forced to pay out of pocket, which throws them into debt. And if they have cronic problems, their health also declines due to their inablity to pay for care. And if you can't even afford to have an HMO? You're f*cked. Because if you can't afford to pay a monthly premium, you sure as hell can't afford to pay for medical costs.


I have yet to start cussing at you, what's wrong can't debate without hurling insults????



"There are also big differences in pay for European doctors, depending on the country in which they practise. In Finland, monthly income of a senior physician (specialist) is 2998-3994 (£2017-2687, $3765-5015), while in Ireland the average yearly income of a specialist is 133, 051. "Young German doctors like to go to Great Britain or to Switzerland because of the pay and the way colleagues communicate," says Merte Bosch. She adds: "We do not think that the income of doctors will change because of a larger EU and as we do not have enough doctors, we do not feel that doctors from Poland or other countries could be a threat."

In Denmark, consultants and practising medical specialists (praktiserende special-læger) have an average yearly income of DKK 780 000 (104 000), while doctors in training and staff specialists have an average yearly income of DKK 456 000 (60 800).

A third of (younger) Lithuanian doctors would like to practise medicine abroad. This is understandable when you compare European salaries with those of Lithuanian doctors, who earn on average Lt737 (214) a month.

These differences will be bigger with the new member countries and might be the main reason behind a suspected migration towards the countries with higher incomes. Malta is one of the accession states with the highest incomes. The maximum wage of a senior registrar working in Malta is 2000 a month. Even so, "many junior doctors move to the UK because of better salaries and better career prospects," says Martin Balzan. He adds: "Once Malta joins the EU, it is expected that more junior doctors who have completed membership/fellowship will move for higher specialist training in the UK, and as the salary structure and the career prospects are much better, most are expected to settle in the UK. The net outflow is expected to worsen with EU accession."

[theHawk]

If you work for the US healthcare system, you work in a for-profit system.

Thats a pretty lame argument to use for promoting "government" health care.
In order for our health care system to be entirely non-profit then the government would have to take over not only all the hospitals, but the pharmaceutical companies, and take over every single vendor that provides supplies, and every single company that makes equipment that hospitals and doctors use.
So what you're talking about is the government taking over a huge section of the private sector. If not, if any part of our health care system isn't taken over by government, then it will still be a "for-profit" system. And if you think that just by making hospitals government owned is going to save money then think again. Private companies get away with murder when dealing with the federal government in their contracts. The quality of service simply goes down the toilet when companies do business with the government, believe me, I see it everyday.
Take it from someone who has worked for the federal government for the last decade, you don't want something as important as health care being run by the government....

[Hagbard Celine]

I have yet to start cussing at you, what's wrong can't debate without hurling insults????



"There are also big differences in pay for European doctors, depending on the country in which they practise. In Finland, monthly income of a senior physician (specialist) is 2998-3994 (£2017-2687, $3765-5015), while in Ireland the average yearly income of a specialist is 133, 051. "Young German doctors like to go to Great Britain or to Switzerland because of the pay and the way colleagues communicate," says Merte Bosch. She adds: "We do not think that the income of doctors will change because of a larger EU and as we do not have enough doctors, we do not feel that doctors from Poland or other countries could be a threat."

In Denmark, consultants and practising medical specialists (praktiserende special-læger) have an average yearly income of DKK 780 000 (104 000), while doctors in training and staff specialists have an average yearly income of DKK 456 000 (60 800).

A third of (younger) Lithuanian doctors would like to practise medicine abroad. This is understandable when you compare European salaries with those of Lithuanian doctors, who earn on average Lt737 (214) a month.

These differences will be bigger with the new member countries and might be the main reason behind a suspected migration towards the countries with higher incomes. Malta is one of the accession states with the highest incomes. The maximum wage of a senior registrar working in Malta is 2000 a month. Even so, "many junior doctors move to the UK because of better salaries and better career prospects," says Martin Balzan. He adds: "Once Malta joins the EU, it is expected that more junior doctors who have completed membership/fellowship will move for higher specialist training in the UK, and as the salary structure and the career prospects are much better, most are expected to settle in the UK. The net outflow is expected to worsen with EU accession."

Nowhere have I insulted you. Cursing and hurling insults are two very different things. And what's your point in this post? That doctors from lower-paying countries are moving to higher-paying countries? Big surprise there. I knew you were going to blow my socks off, but wow.

-See that? That was kind of an insult. :cheers2:

[Hagbard Celine]

Thats a pretty lame argument to use for promoting "government" health care.
In order for our health care system to be entirely non-profit then the government would have to take over not only all the hospitals, but the pharmaceutical companies, and take over every single vendor that provides supplies, and every single company that makes equipment that hospitals and doctors use.
So what you're talking about is the government taking over a huge section of the private sector. If not, if any part of our health care system isn't taken over by government, then it will still be a "for-profit" system. And if you think that just by making hospitals government owned is going to save money then think again. Private companies get away with murder when dealing with the federal government in their contracts. The quality of service simply goes down the toilet when companies do business with the government, believe me, I see it everyday.
Take it from someone who has worked for the federal government for the last decade, you don't want something as important as health care being run by the government....
Making a profit on supplies and goods isn't a problem. The problem is that care itself has been turned into a commodity that can be bestowed or denied based on an insurance carrier's policy. That's not right. In essence, we've given corporations the right to say yea or nay when we ask them for healthcare. They're playing God man!

[darin]

The more I read about your ideals, HB, the more I see people like you would damn our civilization to destruction. Your values lead to death, pain, and hurt, and yet those who hold those values are too blind to see it.

[theHawk]

Making a profit on supplies and goods isn't a problem. The problem is that care itself has been turned into a commodity that can be bestowed or denied based on an insurance carrier's policy. That's not right. In essence, we've given corporations the right to say yea or nay when we ask them for healthcare. They're playing God man!

Oh, so suddenly its doesn't matter if its a "pro-profit" system. The only real problem is the insurance policies. Well thats something I think we can all agree on. I don't see how or why we'd need a government takeover of health care to fix that(as if it would). What we need to do is change the laws to allow people to shop and buy whatever insurance they want, much like car insurance. In short, we need to remove the government restrictions on health insurance, not apply more.

[Trigg]

Nowhere have I insulted you. Cursing and hurling insults are two very different things. And what's your point in this post? That doctors from lower-paying countries are moving to higher-paying countries? Big surprise there. I knew you were going to blow my socks off, but wow.

-See that? That was kind of an insult. :cheers2:

The point was sparky the Dr's in those WONDERFUL European countries are making only a smig over 100,000 a year. If you READ the article it says these are salaries for specialists, staff physicians are making $60,000 PER YEAR. So yes about as much as a plumber.


Take the time to read down at the end of the post where it says "The net outflow is expected to worsen with EU accession."

That means a doctor shortage, unless they start paying more....go ahead guess how they start getting paid more..........that's right the gov. raises taxes to pay for it.....who pays those taxes????????? THE CITIZENS!!!!!!!!!

[Hagbard Celine]

The more I read about your ideals, HB, the more I see people like you would damn our civilization to destruction. Your values lead to death, pain, and hurt, and yet those who hold those values are too blind to see it.

What values? Life, Liberty, Happiness and the pursuit thereof? Just because I don't subscribe to you bizarre religious ideals doesn't mean I'm a bad person dmp.

If "damning our civilization to destruction" means making health care more efficient, less expensive for all and more effective, then by God bring it on.

If "damning our civilization to destruction" means having your loving God reign brimstone down on our citizens and turn women into pillars of salt, then...well maybe I'd just like to see that. Hell, I'd buy tickets to a show like that.

"damning our civilization to destruction." :laugh: You're such a drama queen dmp.

[darin]

But the ideas you have would DESTROY Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happiness.

You have ideas which would make health care even LESS efficient, and MORE expensive for all.

[red states rule]

So right now all of England and France and Canada and Norway and etc. all have longer life spans and better health than US residents because their government healthcare systems don't work? Riiiiight. Can you guys mail me some of what you're smoking?

Tell us again how great the health care system is in England.............


Hard-up hospital orders staff: Don't wash sheets - turn them over
by DANIEL MARTIN - More by this author »

Last updated at 23:22pm on 13th April 2007
Cleaners at an NHS hospital with a poor record on superbugs have been told to turn over dirty sheets instead of using fresh ones between patients to save money.

Housekeeping staff at Good Hope Hospital in Sutton Coldfield, have been asked to re-use sheets and pillowcases wherever possible to cut a £500,000 laundry bill.

Posters in the hospital's linen cupboards and on doors into the A&E department remind workers that each item costs 0.275 pence to wash.

Good Hope reported a deficit of £6million last year and was subject to a report by the Audit Commission because of its poor financial standing.

It recorded 36 cases of MRSA from April last year to January, while cases of clostridium difficile have more than doubled in less than a year to 327. A Government hit squad was drafted in to solve the infection problems last year but the trust is still failing to hit MRSA targets.

Tony Field, chairman of Birmingham-based MRSA Support, said: 'Is that all the safety of a patient's life is worth? 0.275 pence?

'It is utterly disgraceful and tantamount to murder because hygiene like changing sheets is essential to protect patients.

'It proves beyond all doubt that cost- cutting is directly contributing to hospital acquired infections.'

A Good Hope spokesman said the posters went up around two years ago and should all have been taken down by now. But a medic insisted the posters were still on display in A&E and the maternity unit as recently as the past month.

'It is clear the trust is encouraging staff to "top 'n' tail" used sheets on a bed instead of replacing them between patients,' said the health worker, who did not wish to be named.

'The very nature of A&E should be enough reason to change sheets between every patient as casualty sees patients who have come in with a variety of infections, traumatic injuries and blood spill.'

Conservative healthvehealth spokesman John Baron said: 'This sounds ludicrous and is a real cause for concern given that MRSA is such a problem in our hospitals.

'This matter needs to be investigated at a higher level. Patient safety must never be compromised.'

Liberal Democrat health spokesman Norman Lamb said: 'If we are to beat healthcareacquired infections we need the highest possible standards of cleanliness. The idea of turning over sheets like this is extraordinary and scandalous.'

The scheme is one of many ways that cash- strapped trusts are trying to save money.

In January, staff at West Hertfordshire NHS Trust were amazed to receive a memo urging them to save £2.50 a day by prescribing cheaper medicines, reducing the number of sterile packs used, cutting hospital tests and asking patients to bring drugs in from home.

Epsom and St Helier Trust in South London has removed every third light bulb from corridors.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=448395&in_page_id=1774

[Nukeman]

Tell us again how great the health care system is in England.............


Hard-up hospital orders staff: Don't wash sheets - turn them over
by DANIEL MARTIN - More by this author »

Last updated at 23:22pm on 13th April 2007
Cleaners at an NHS hospital with a poor record on superbugs have been told to turn over dirty sheets instead of using fresh ones between patients to save money.

Housekeeping staff at Good Hope Hospital in Sutton Coldfield, have been asked to re-use sheets and pillowcases wherever possible to cut a £500,000 laundry bill.

Posters in the hospital's linen cupboards and on doors into the A&E department remind workers that each item costs 0.275 pence to wash.

Good Hope reported a deficit of £6million last year and was subject to a report by the Audit Commission because of its poor financial standing.

It recorded 36 cases of MRSA from April last year to January, while cases of clostridium difficile have more than doubled in less than a year to 327. A Government hit squad was drafted in to solve the infection problems last year but the trust is still failing to hit MRSA targets.

Tony Field, chairman of Birmingham-based MRSA Support, said: 'Is that all the safety of a patient's life is worth? 0.275 pence?

'It is utterly disgraceful and tantamount to murder because hygiene like changing sheets is essential to protect patients.

'It proves beyond all doubt that cost- cutting is directly contributing to hospital acquired infections.'

A Good Hope spokesman said the posters went up around two years ago and should all have been taken down by now. But a medic insisted the posters were still on display in A&E and the maternity unit as recently as the past month.

'It is clear the trust is encouraging staff to "top 'n' tail" used sheets on a bed instead of replacing them between patients,' said the health worker, who did not wish to be named.

'The very nature of A&E should be enough reason to change sheets between every patient as casualty sees patients who have come in with a variety of infections, traumatic injuries and blood spill.'

Conservative healthvehealth spokesman John Baron said: 'This sounds ludicrous and is a real cause for concern given that MRSA is such a problem in our hospitals.

'This matter needs to be investigated at a higher level. Patient safety must never be compromised.'

Liberal Democrat health spokesman Norman Lamb said: 'If we are to beat healthcareacquired infections we need the highest possible standards of cleanliness. The idea of turning over sheets like this is extraordinary and scandalous.'

The scheme is one of many ways that cash- strapped trusts are trying to save money.

In January, staff at West Hertfordshire NHS Trust were amazed to receive a memo urging them to save £2.50 a day by prescribing cheaper medicines, reducing the number of sterile packs used, cutting hospital tests and asking patients to bring drugs in from home.

Epsom and St Helier Trust in South London has removed every third light bulb from corridors.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=448395&in_page_id=1774

Welcom to the future of American health care if HIllary gets her way!!!!!!!

[red states rule]

Welcom to the future of American health care if HIllary gets her way!!!!!!!

Libs hate articles like these - it shows what governemnt run health care is all about

[Nukeman]

We also have an under staffed, over utilized system. The difference is that we pay out the wazoo for ours.

What good is coverage when your insurance company refuses to pay-out on your claim???


What good is universal/socialized healthcare if you cant get in to see your doctor or get the services you need


Have you been to an urban emergency room lately


Yes as a matter of fact I have. In fact I have worked in them for years have you???


You have this cartoon image from the Cold War of people standing in line to get bread. Are you really naive or moronic enough to believe that citizens in the UK and France and Canada and every other western country stand in long lines at the hospital and get inadequate care? I swear to god it's frustrating "debating" with someone who has a child's view of the world. :bang3


Your soo cute with your ideas of how I THINK and VIEW the WORLD!!!
Its not a LITERAL LINE YOU MORON. They wait for weeks for services that we take for granted and recieve same day or next day.

Want to talk about how frustrating it is "debating" someone who is obviously mentaly challenged:cuckoo::stupid::bang3::bang3:

[red states rule]

What good is universal/socialized healthcare if you cant get in to see your doctor or get the services you need




Yes as a matter of fact I have. In fact I have worked in them for years have you???




Your soo cute with your ideas of how I THINK and VIEW the WORLD!!!
Its not a LITERAL LINE YOU MORON. They wait for weeks for services that we take for granted and recieve same day or next day.

Want to talk about how frustrating it is "debating" someone who is obviously mentaly challenged:cuckoo::stupid::bang3::bang3:

Libs think health care should be a free US Constitutional right. What the pea brains can't understand is - somebody has to pay for it

Libs don't care who pays - as long as it is not them

[Pale Rider]

everytime I hear about sociaized Medicine I think of my experience dealing with the VA Health Care system. It blows - no offense to the employees - it's just the Govt does a MUCH better job killing people and keeping them safe, than treating them.

I've had two major surgeries under government care. The first was in a field hospital to remove two pieces of an RPG out of my right lung. The second was at a V.A. hospital for a cervical discectomy. Both were top notch. I don't think I could have had any better care any where else.

The V.A. hospital here in Reno has gotten very high marks for being one of the best in the nation. I go there, and I feel I'm also in very good hands there as well. No complaints.

[avatar4321]

Libs think health care should be a free US Constitutional right. What the pea brains can't understand is - somebody has to pay for it

Libs don't care who pays - as long as it is not them

thats because they refuse to acknowledge that people have to work to provide them this care. They think people should work for free so they can be healthy.

Most people call forcing people to work for free by its proper name: Slavery.

[MtnBiker]

Health care is not a right. Why should taxpayers have to pay for it?

[diuretic]

Run over and check out little acorns thread about the Canadian quads born...not in Canada....but here in the US.

And be sure to note the reasons for that have nothing to do with the the health system in Alta. or Canada in general.

[diuretic]

Libs hate articles like these - it shows what governemnt run health care is all about

The point of articles like that is to tell the public that the system is under-funded. The NHS is an instititution in the UK, it could never be dismantled because the Brits wouldn't stand for a US-style health system.

I prefer our system where no-one decides to forego treatment because of a fear of bankruptcy and where our prescription medicines are subsidised so that we can all afford them. It's not a government-run system, it's much more complex than that and from time to time there are problems caused by underfunding which are then corrected, but in terms of delivering decent health care to its population, our system works well and any government that attempted to fiddle with it would be driven from office.

[diuretic]

Health care is not a right. Why should taxpayers have to pay for it?

It's seen as a right here and taxpayers are more than happy to pay for it for everyone.

Cultural differences no doubt.

[Said1]

I posted this in another thread...

The Canadian Health System has many flaws, one of which is the under staffing of physicians.

10% of ALL Canadians can not even get into see a General Practicioner due to no more time or space in their VERY busy schedules. (thts 3.3 million people almost half of the chronicly US citizens that are without insurance for more than 2 years)

The average wait time for Diagnostic services (lab, x-ray, cardiac sreening) is 3 weeks. Once you get into seeing your specialist tht you waited 4 weeks to get into see, of course than you have to wait an average of 4 weeks to get into the surgical center to have your non-emergent surgery.

For those of you keeping count that is 11 weeks to have your surgery.



This same situation in the US takes less than a week on most cases..


As for the Life expectancy, do you really mean to tell me that .3-2 years difference is really about the health care... Or is it more likely diet, lifestyle, or as in most European countries LESS WORK. The average US worker puts in substantialy more hours per year than their European counter part.

Let us not forget that when we look at life expectancies it only takes a couple of "gang bangers" to drasticly bring down the curve.. If you have one person live to be 100 and one dies in gang violence at the age of 16 their combined life expectancy is 58 now is that really a measure of our health system.....


The shortages are generally in rural areas and parts of the country experiencing population explosions due to economic growth. Facilities are not equipped to handle sudden increases in demande......Calgary is a good example.

Personally, I've never waited long for ANY service, including sergury. Nor do I know of anyone who has.

Quality of healthcare differs greatly per region, so I'm not denying there are long waits in certain regions, for certain things, because there is. I don't think this is a Canadian thing or something directly related to socialzed healthcare since healthcare professionals tend to stay where the money is and it doesn't tend to be in poor isolated areas.


One other thing I would like to point out. Prior to 2002 (as someone quoted), some areas in the US were facing shortages of healthcare workers, paying large amounts for our professionals to cross the boarder. Why would there be a shortage of healthcare professionals in a mostly private system? Would shortages result in long waits as well?

[Kathianne]

The shortages are generally in rural areas and parts of the country experiencing population explosions due to economic growth. Facilities are not equipped to handle sudden increases in demande......Calgary is a good example.

Personally, I've never waited long for ANY service, including sergury. Nor do I know of anyone who has.

Quality of healthcare differs greatly per region, so I'm not denying there are long waits in certain regions, for certain things, because there is. I don't think this is a Canadian thing or something directly related to socialzed healthcare since healthcare professionals tend to stay where the money is and it doesn't tend to be in poor isolated areas.


One other thing I would like to point out. Prior to 2002 (as someone quoted), some areas in the US were facing shortages of healthcare workers, paying large amounts for our professionals to cross the boarder. Why would there be a shortage of healthcare professionals in a mostly private system? Would shortages result in long waits as well?

2 factors figure into shortages in the US: high risk specialties due to insurance rates/malpractice suits. Rural populations-just as you said.

[Said1]

2 factors figure into shortages in the US: high risk specialties due to insurance rates/malpractice suits. Rural populations-just as you said.

I think we'll wind up with a two tier system, eventually. I like a lot of changes I've seen recently, but with the government, efficiency leads to cut backs. Their motto should be 'if it works, break it'. :laugh2:

[Said1]

What good is universal/socialized healthcare if you cant get in to see your doctor or get the services you need




Yes as a matter of fact I have. In fact I have worked in them for years have you???




Your soo cute with your ideas of how I THINK and VIEW the WORLD!!!
Its not a LITERAL LINE YOU MORON. They wait for weeks for services that we take for granted and recieve same day or next day.

Want to talk about how frustrating it is "debating" someone who is obviously mentaly challenged:cuckoo::stupid::bang3::bang3:

I'll assume you get your information from reliable sources, but how do you account for the quality care I've always received.........just lucky?

I'll give you a fewexamples: I waited 1 1/2 in the emergency room the last time I was there with a gum infection at 6am one Sunday morning, in May.

The longest I've ever waited was 3hrs, the ER was full (and I mean FULL) and I had a good sized sliver in my knee ( it was REALLY deep and it was more like a chunck than a sliver....REALLY! ). Not really a line up, but pretty close, I guess.



One time I didn't even have to wait.

The longest I've ever waited to see my physician was 3 wks, for a physical. This was due impart to not wanting to take time off work if I didn't have to (I was working part-time shift work).

The longest I waited for surgery was 1 month. The reason it took so long was due to the fact that the infection I had in my eye was so severe and difficult to clear up. This had nothing to do with the quality of care I was given, it was due to an aggressive eye infection that was difficult to control.
I will mention waiting several hours to see the eye disease specialists at the eye clinic, though.

Now, if you go to Geat Bear Lake, that's another story.

If you go to an area that has recently had 1000's of people flooding into the city almost over night, that's another story as well.

Like I said, healthcare varies per region, but your examples of long line ups etc do not apply to the entire population, that's a gross generalization.


How would you compair rural vs urban healthcare where you are?

[MtnBiker]

It's seen as a right here and taxpayers are more than happy to pay for it for everyone.

Cultural differences no doubt.

You speak for all taxpayers in your country?

What is seen as a right there does not make a legal right here.

[glockmail]

It's seen as a right here and taxpayers are more than happy to pay for it for everyone.

Cultural differences no doubt. I'm sure everything over there is just hunky-dorey. So you have no respect for our culture then.

[glockmail]

You speak for all taxpayers in your country?

What is seen as a right there does not make a legal right here. No shit we Americans have our way and everyone else can take the highway. We turned European politics on its head in 1776 and we ain't stopping anytime soon, as least as far as we red bloods are concerned.

[diuretic]

I think we'll wind up with a two tier system, eventually. I like a lot of changes I've seen recently, but with the government, efficiency leads to cut backs. Their motto should be 'if it works, break it'. :laugh2:

A two-tier system has developed, sort of accidentally :laugh2: here and it seems to work. I think health care is one of those things that needs to be sorted out without the strictures of ideology.

[diuretic]

You speak for all taxpayers in your country?

What a strange question. No, not really a question is it, more of an assumption coiled up inside a challenge. But to answer it - of course not. I speak only for myself. Now, given we have compulsory voting at our federal and state elections I think I can say that the overwhelming number of people in this country would agree with me. Note - I'm not claiming to speak for all taxpayers, merely pointing out that my voice is among the overwhelming majority.




What is seen as a right there does not make a legal right here.

Of course not. I didn't make that claim.

[diuretic]

I'm sure everything over there is just hunky-dorey. So you have no respect for our culture then.

Of course it's not hunky-dorey, there's a lot wrong with our country and most of it has to do with the last eleven years of conservative mis-government :laugh2:

As for not respecting American culture, no, that's not right. Having visited for reasonable lengths of time (no substitute for living and working there I will admit readily) I understand that there's not one American culture as so many people outside the US think. There are many, many cultures. People who only see the US through film and tv have this twisted view of your country. When they go there they realise just how crooked that view is.

One of the things I like about the general US culture is the individuality. I think that can be taken too far though, it can become a crippling shibboleth. But I always appreciate the tolerance Americans show for difference.

There's more I admire but I don't want to sound sucky.

[diuretic]

No shit we Americans have our way and everyone else can take the highway. We turned European politics on its head in 1776 and we ain't stopping anytime soon, as least as far as we red bloods are concerned.

Now that's the sort of "ugly American" comment that gets other people's backs up. You're entitled to that view, as factually wrong as it is. In 1776 the independence of the British colonies in America had little effect in Europe. Europe was in turmoil itself, there were mini-revolutions happening all over the show. That Britain finally decided to leave its southern North American colonies meant Britain was able to recall troops for its much needed European campaigns.

[KarlMarx]

So right now all of England and France and Canada and Norway and etc. all have longer life spans and better health than US residents because their government healthcare systems don't work? Riiiiight. Can you guys mail me some of what you're smoking?
I have a grandmother who lives in Italy and they have socialized medicine. Recently, my uncle nearly died after they the doctors kept sending him back home rather than treat his illness.

H.C.... perhaps you can offer a link that offers a counterpoint to this article..



....

London's Observer (3/3/02) carried a story saying that an "unpublished report shows some patients are now having to wait more than eight months for treatment, during which time many of their cancers become incurable." Another story said, "According to a World Health Organisation report to be published later this year, around 10,000 British people die unnecessarily from cancer each year -- three times as many as are killed on our roads."

....


http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2007/02/14/do_we_want_socialized_medicine

[avatar4321]

Now that's the sort of "ugly American" comment that gets other people's backs up. You're entitled to that view, as factually wrong as it is. In 1776 the independence of the British colonies in America had little effect in Europe. Europe was in turmoil itself, there were mini-revolutions happening all over the show. That Britain finally decided to leave its southern North American colonies meant Britain was able to recall troops for its much needed European campaigns.

oh please. The French Revolution was a direct result of the American Revolution. and that changed the face of Europe completely.

[diuretic]

oh please. The French Revolution was a direct result of the American Revolution. and that changed the face of Europe completely.


I don't think so. The American Revolution was economic as much as it was political. The colonies had grown up, they got cranky with the British (and rightly so) and booted them out. Your country gained its independence. The French Revolution was an overthrow of a complete regime internally. It was driven not so much by mercantilist economic factors as a desire to see an end to the absolutism of the French monarchy and its feudal system and for it to be replaced by what we'd call a more democratic form of government and a fairer economic system. I won't get into the details of what happened later as it's not relevant. But if you're arguing that there was a direct link between the American Revolution and the French Revolution then I'd say that's a pretty long bow you're pulling on.

Now, as for the effect if the revolution in France on the rest of Europe, yes, it had a major effect.

[diuretic]

Back to the topic. You know it's really straightforward. Rather than quote articles at each other why not stick to the basics. The US seems to prefer a health system which is operated for profit by private companies on a user pays basis. Much of the rest of the world (I'm generalising) prefers a socialised approach to funding health care delivery which can take various forms.

The US consistently lags many other countries in key indicators of public health. It lags behind other countries with far less wealthy economies. That's because top class health care is available to those who can afford it while those who can't afford it have to get what they can. The elites, the corporate and political elites, are doing fine. They can afford the finest health care in the US and they buy it. But the finest health care in the US isn't available to those who can't afford it. If that's how you like it then fine, no problems. But don't express cynicism about those world-wide key indicators of public health. Some of us think health care isn't a right, that it should be purchased, like any other commodity and if you can't afford to buy it then you go without or you get second-rate care. Some of us think that access to good health care is part of the social contract and its cost should be borne by society. Fine, go with what works for you.

[Said1]

A two-tier system has developed, sort of accidentally :laugh2: here and it seems to work. I think health care is one of those things that needs to be sorted out without the strictures of ideology.

How does your two teir system work?

The interesting thing about the present situation in Calgary is that they want a two teir system. They should have one in places such as British Collumbia because they do pay a premium that is based on income. Vancouver has had trouble keeping up with demandes, they would benefit from privately owned (or whatever) hospitals and private insurance in order to keep up with the demande. They've also had massive population fluxuations over the last 20 yrs as well as Toronto, Ottawa and now Calgary.

In Ontario, where I live, we're handed everything. We're spoiled and just happen to be part of the industrial, financial and political core of the country. What I see happening (and this may be the case where you are) is that 1. as I alread mentioned, health care facilities have trouble adapting to transients. That is, the inflow and outflow of people across the country varies greatly throughout one decade. By the time changes are implemented they are outdated and needed elewhere. This ovbiously poses problems and private clinics and hospitals (however under the governments thumb they may be) would help ease the load and private insurance would cut costs, doing nothing to degrade the present system as it is now. 2. Our population is also growing rapidly through immigration, an expenisve universal system can not be sustained, which is also evident given recent cut backs for certain services. On the bright side, private insurance is a little more useful as private clinics have been allowed to operate within the province. 3. with all the changes, spending, cutt backs and so on, rural populations get shafted each and everytime. Some of these people would benefit from private insurance which would provide the opportunity to go outt of the province for services they can't get in their own province, for whatever reason.

These are consistent problems mild legislative changeswith respect to privatization and price capping would ease - without hurting the present system! I'm all for a two tier systme myself. Presently, I have private insurance and Provincial coverage.

[emmett]

Dr. Martin's office, may I help you!

Yes, this is Mrs. Johnson here in Ruralville, USA. I need to schedule an appointment to have a hangnail removed please.

OK Mrs. johnson, what is you GIVN (Government Issued Verification Number)?

Huh?

Your GIVN Mrs. Johnson. We have to have that number to verify you have been authorized by the government to have this operation. There is a waiting list of 6 to 12 months mam for non-life threatening surgery. If Dr; Martin were to perform this operation without government approval he would loose his license and possible go to jail.

What?

Yes Mam. The New National Health Care Program requires a pre-screen determination by a Government doctor to see if surgery is necessary or not.

Necessary! I have a hangnail growing down into my finger so bad it oozes pus out of it. It bleeds, I can't hold anything, drive or even prepare meals for my family.

I'm sorry Mrs. Johnson. That is the law. Dr. Martin is an authorized screener however. Could you come in two weeks from Tuesday and have the injury evaluated, maybe at 10:30am.

Two Weeks! I will have Gang Green by then.

I'm sorry mam! It isn't a life threatening injury and waiting lists are very long. What about going to the Emergency Room in Ruralvile?

We don't have an Emergency Room in Ruralville. I would have go to Metropolis for that. That's 132 miles away.

Oh No mam. Metropolis does not have an Emergency Room Care anylonger. They are understaffed. You would have to go to Big City Town for that.

Oh my God!

Mrs. Johnson! I want to help you. Please don't say I said anything but there is a doctor who can perform your surgery. He's very expensive you understand. He also requires you wear a hood over your head when you see him so he cannot be identified.

I'll do anything at this point.

I understand.

It's a good thing I don't have a more serious injury.

Yes Maam, it certainly is! Let me get you that number, hang on.

Beep Beep.......Click.....Click.....Beep (the sound of the Health Care Police tapping the doctors phone)