Another Russian poisoned in the UK ...

[Drummond]

This is an ongoing story ... however ... it seemingly has echoes of the Litvinenko poisoning, widely attributed to be a result of direction given by Putin at the time.

Reminders of the Litvinenko case ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2016/03/21/the-poisoning-of-ex-kgb-spy-alexander-litvinenko---in-90-seconds/


Nine years after former KGB spy Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned in a plush London hotel in what has been described as Russian"state-sponsored nuclear terrorism", a public inquiry into his death finally begins in London next week.

Kremlin-critic Litvinenko, who had been granted British citizenship, died after drinking tea poisoned with a rare radioactive isotope in November 2006 and from his deathbed he accused Russian President Vladimir Putin of ordering his murder.

Russia has always rejected the claim, but British authorities say there is evidence to charge two ex-KGB agents with murder. The judge who will oversee the inquiry has already cited a "prima facie case" indicating Russian involvement.

Next Tuesday, after almost a decade of battling for answers, Litvinenko's wife Marina believes the truth will finally come out when the inquiry gets under way.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/alexander-litvinenko-inquiry-timeline-poisoning-former-russian-spy-1539094

Now, to this latest incident.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43295134


A man who is critically ill after being exposed to an unknown substance in Wiltshire is a Russian national convicted of spying for Britain, the BBC understands.

Sergei Skripal, 66, was granted refuge in the UK following a "spy swap" between the US and Russia in 2010.

He and a woman, 33, were found unconscious on a bench at a shopping centre in Salisbury on Sunday.

Zizzi restaurant in Salisbury has been closed by police "as a precaution".

The substance has not been identified, but Public Health England said there was no known risk to the public's health.

Wiltshire Police are investigating whether a crime has been committed. They said the pair had no visible injuries but had been found unconscious at the Maltings shopping centre.

They have declared a "major incident" and multiple agencies are investigating. They said it had not been declared as a counter-terrorism incident, but they were keeping an "open mind".

Col Skripal, who is a retired Russian military intelligence officer, was jailed for 13 years by Russia in 2006 for spying for Britain.

I think this story is worth keeping an eye on. It IS still a developing story. If nothing else, confirmation of what's feared to be true will prove that Russia's predisposition to murdering Russians who act against that country's tyranny has not changed.

[I look forward to seeing @Balu (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=3557) do his utmost to sanitise his country's reputation, in the wake of reports such as these .... maybe he'll even offer a defence .. ?]

[Gunny]

Dang. Sounds like and Alistair MacLean novel :)

[Drummond]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43297638


The woman found slumped on a shopping centre bench alongside a former Russian agent convicted of spying for Britain is his daughter, it has emerged.

Yulia Skripal, in her 30s, and father Sergei, 66, are critically ill in hospital after being found unconscious in Salisbury, Wiltshire, on Sunday.

UK police are trying to find out what "unknown substance" harmed the pair.

A number of emergency services workers were assessed immediately after the incident - and one remains in hospital.

Russia insists it has "no information" on what could have led to the incident, but says it is open to co-operate in the police investigation if requested.

Former agent Mr Skripal, whose wife, son and older brother have all died in the past two years, was granted refuge in the UK following a "spy swap" in 2010

No comment, as yet, from Balu .. ?

[Gunny]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43297638



No comment, as yet, from @Balu (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=3557) .. ?Coincidence? :rolleyes:

What gets me about these suddenly wannabe powerful and sneaky folk is they are operating right out of the 1950s Cold War espionage manual. You'd tink in 70 years they'd come up with something a little more clever.

What I think is they just don't give a damn. Who's going to do anything to them even when caught? No one will even come right out and accuse them without direct evidence, While a firm believer in the rule of evidence, you can nly rutn so much of a blind eye to something that look, walks, and quacks like a duck.

[Balu]

Moscow demands explanation from UK Foreign Office about ex-colonel’s hospitalization

Russian Politics & Diplomacy (http://tass.com/politics)
March 06, 15:45 UTC+3
The embassy stressed that the incident involving Skripal and his female companion raises serious concerns


https://cdn1.tass.ru/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20180306/1188982.jpg
Sergei Skripal

© Moscow District Military Court/TASS

LONDON, March 6. /TASS/. The Russian Embassy has asked the UK Foreign Office to provide explanations about the poisoning of former Russian military intelligence (GRU) Colonel Sergey Skripal and his female companion in Salisbury, the embassy’s spokesman told TASS.
"The British authorities and law enforcement agencies must intervene immediately and inform the embassy and the British public about the real state of affairs in order to put an end to the demonization of Russia. In light of that, the embassy asked for relevant explanations from the UK Foreign Office," the spokesman stated.
Read also

Kremlin: No information about reasons behind incident involving ex-intelligence officer (http://tass.com/politics/992917)

The embassy stressed that the incident involving Skripal and his female companion raises serious concerns. "To date, the embassy has no official information about the incident from either the police or other British authorities. The UK Foreign Office has not made any statements on the matter as well. However, the situation in the media space is rapidly morphing into a new round of the anti-Russia crusade, which is underway in Britain. Readers are presented with various theories, which boil down to ways of demonizing Russia," the representative said.
"Although the British law enforcement agencies did not make any substantive statements about the circumstances surrounding the incident, one could get an impression from media reports that the issue at hand is apparently a well-planned action by Russia’s intelligence services, which is totally untrue," he added.

The Salisbury incident

On March 5, UK media reported an incident involving former Russian military intelligence (GRU) Colonel Sergei Skripal, 66, and a female companion identified by some media outlets as his 33-year-old daughter, who had reportedly been poisoned by an unknown substance. According to the local police, they were found unconscious on a shopping mall bench in Salisbury on Sunday.
In 2004, Russia’s Federal Security Service (the FSB) arrested Skripal and later on, he was sentenced to 13 years in prison for high treason. Six years later, the former colonel was handed over to the US as part of a swap deal involving espionage suspects.
Earlier on Tuesday, Russian Presidential Spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that the Kremlin had no information on what the incident could be related to. According to the spokesman, Russia has received no requests for assistance in investigating that incident. However, Moscow is always open to cooperation.

More:
http://tass.com/politics/992977

[Balu]

Gary Powers: The U-2 spy pilot the US did not love

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35064221

...He took a job as a pilot for a television news station, and died in 1977 - his helicopter crashed as he was returning to base after covering brush fires in Santa Barbara County. ... (surely KGB)

[Gunny]

Gary Powers: The U-2 spy pilot the US did not love

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35064221

...He took a job as a pilot for a television news station, and died in 1977 - his helicopter crashed as he was returning to base after covering brush fires in Santa Barbara County. ... (surely KGB)This has to be THE most obvious and lame attempt at deflection I've seen. Close, anyway. What does Gary Powers have to do with commies running around playing KGB in today's world?

Y'all didn't get the memo? Cold War has been over since the 1980s and that Spy vs Spy shit needs to stay in MAD magazine where it belongs. The USSR and NKVD/KGB are gone with it.

[Drummond]

This has to be THE most obvious and lame attempt at deflection I've seen. Close, anyway. What does Gary Powers have to do with commies running around playing KGB in today's world?

Y'all didn't get the memo? Cold War has been over since the 1980s and that Spy vs Spy shit needs to stay in MAD magazine where it belongs. The USSR and NKVD/KGB are gone with it.

Poor Balu ... there's evident propagandist desperation at work here; having to go all the way back to the Gary Powers issue, to find any sense of self-justification ?

Markov. Litvinenko. Now, this. The Russian Embassy wants the UK to account for Russia's actions ??

How about ... Churchill, accounting for Hitler's ... ?? That's how absurd that argument is.

Anyway .. back to the present ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43303651


The UK would respond "robustly" to any evidence of Russian involvement in the collapse of former spy Sergei Skripal, Boris Johnson has said.

Mr Skripal, 66, and his daughter Yulia, 33, are critically ill in hospital after being found unconscious in Salisbury, Wiltshire.

The foreign secretary said he was not pointing fingers at this stage, but described Russia as "a malign and disruptive force".

Mr Skripal's relatives have told the BBC Russian Service that the former spy believed the Russian special services might come after him at any time.

His wife, elder brother and his son have died in the past two years, some in mysterious circumstances, the family believe.

[Drummond]

Moscow demands explanation from UK Foreign Office about ex-colonel’s hospitalization

Russian Politics & Diplomacy (http://tass.com/politics)
March 06, 15:45 UTC+3
The embassy stressed that the incident involving Skripal and his female companion raises serious concerns


https://cdn1.tass.ru/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20180306/1188982.jpg
Sergei Skripal

© Moscow District Military Court/TASS

LONDON, March 6. /TASS/. The Russian Embassy has asked the UK Foreign Office to provide explanations about the poisoning of former Russian military intelligence (GRU) Colonel Sergey Skripal and his female companion in Salisbury, the embassy’s spokesman told TASS.
"The British authorities and law enforcement agencies must intervene immediately and inform the embassy and the British public about the real state of affairs in order to put an end to the demonization of Russia. In light of that, the embassy asked for relevant explanations from the UK Foreign Office," the spokesman stated.
Read also

Kremlin: No information about reasons behind incident involving ex-intelligence officer (http://tass.com/politics/992917)

The embassy stressed that the incident involving Skripal and his female companion raises serious concerns. "To date, the embassy has no official information about the incident from either the police or other British authorities. The UK Foreign Office has not made any statements on the matter as well. However, the situation in the media space is rapidly morphing into a new round of the anti-Russia crusade, which is underway in Britain. Readers are presented with various theories, which boil down to ways of demonizing Russia," the representative said.
"Although the British law enforcement agencies did not make any substantive statements about the circumstances surrounding the incident, one could get an impression from media reports that the issue at hand is apparently a well-planned action by Russia’s intelligence services, which is totally untrue," he added.

The Salisbury incident

On March 5, UK media reported an incident involving former Russian military intelligence (GRU) Colonel Sergei Skripal, 66, and a female companion identified by some media outlets as his 33-year-old daughter, who had reportedly been poisoned by an unknown substance. According to the local police, they were found unconscious on a shopping mall bench in Salisbury on Sunday.
In 2004, Russia’s Federal Security Service (the FSB) arrested Skripal and later on, he was sentenced to 13 years in prison for high treason. Six years later, the former colonel was handed over to the US as part of a swap deal involving espionage suspects.
Earlier on Tuesday, Russian Presidential Spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that the Kremlin had no information on what the incident could be related to. According to the spokesman, Russia has received no requests for assistance in investigating that incident. However, Moscow is always open to cooperation.

More:
http://tass.com/politics/992977

So, your Russian Embassy wants an explanation from us ? Really ?

They want to be told what they probably are very well aware of ??

OK .. @Balu (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=3557) .... here's some news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43323847


A nerve agent was used to try to murder a former Russian spy and his daughter, police have said.

Sergei and Yulia Skripal were found unconscious in Salisbury on Sunday afternoon and remain critically ill.

A police officer who was the first to attend the scene is now in a serious condition in hospital, Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said.

Nerve agents are highly toxic chemicals that stop the nervous system working and shut down bodily functions.

They normally enter the body through the mouth or nose, but can also be absorbed through the eyes or skin.

Mr Rowley, head of Counter Terrorism Policing, said government scientists had identified the agent used, but would not make that information public at this stage.

"This is being treated as a major incident involving attempted murder, by administration of a nerve agent," he said.

"Having established that a nerve agent is the cause of the symptoms... I can also confirm that we believe that the two people who became unwell were targeted specifically."

He said there was no evidence of a widespread health risk to the public.

Two other police officers who attended the scene were treated in hospital for minor symptoms, before they were given the all clear. It is understood their symptoms included itchy eyes and wheezing.

The announcement by the police that Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia are the victims of an attack in which a nerve agent was used makes the parallel with the poisoning of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko in London in 2006 even stronger.

Like the radioactive polonium used to kill Litvinenko, a nerve agent is not normally something criminal gangs or terrorist groups can make.

Instead, it is usually manufactured by specialist laboratories under the control of governments - and that inevitably means suspicion will now be very much focused on Russia.

Balu is invited to offer a comment. Hopefully it'll not be an 'this is all propagandist lies from the West' ..... I prefer an honest comment.

[Gunny]

Moscow demands, huh? Let me think on that a minute .....

:fu:

[Black Diamond]

Moscow demands, huh? Let me think on that a minute .....

:fu:
Could easily be Moscow Germania.

[mundame]

There is no safe refuge for spies against Russia, is the message. Nowhere.

[Drummond]

There is no safe refuge for spies against Russia, is the message. Nowhere.

... yes. I'm sure that Putin is sending his opponents a message -- oppose me, and be forever in fear for your safety.

It's the mentality of a tyrant. Or, a gangster (if not both). NOT one of a respectable, worthwhile, trustworthy, major player on the world scene !!

I've yet to see Balu's reaction regarding probable Russian culpability.

We're told that the nerve agent used was a 'rare' one, whatever that precisely means. Doubtless that fact will help us be sure about its origin. One thing's for sure .. ONLY a State power - such as Russia - could've manufactured this agent.

I'm sure we'll know more of a conclusive nature in the next day or 2 ...

[mundame]

... yes. I'm sure that Putin is sending his opponents a message -- oppose me, and be forever in fear for your safety.

It's the mentality of a tyrant. Or, a gangster (if not both). NOT one of a respectable, worthwhile, trustworthy, major player on the world scene !!

I've yet to see Balu's reaction regarding probable Russian culpability.

We're told that the nerve agent used was a 'rare' one, whatever that precisely means. Doubtless that fact will help us be sure about its origin. One thing's for sure .. ONLY a State power - such as Russia - could've manufactured this agent.

I'm sure we'll know more of a conclusive nature in the next day or 2 ...


I make a point of not reading Russian propaganda trolls. Been there, done that, no more.

I have a weird new point of view about this kind of issue: I think it's effective, a lot more effective than anything the West does these days about crime and enemies. Although as they made a spies trade, killing all the spies against Russia in England would seem to mitigate against making any future trades, you would think. I can't see why Britain would want to bother doing that again, it just pollutes whole restaurants with exotic nerve gases or highly radioactive poisons. And makes Britain look weak.

But killing criminals or otherwise punishing them severely has not only a deterrent effect against crime but also gets rid of the criminals, which I think is actually what is wanted most. The whole West, America and Europe, is now completely unable to stop anyone from doing anything: we just pamper them and give them lots of attention the worse their crimes are. If they come in illegally hundreds on a rubber raft, the EU rushes out to rescue them, patrols to search and find such people to bring in. If it were me running the zoo, all that would come to a screeching halt, so I admire Putin's -------firm-------- approach to enemies.

[Drummond]

I make a point of not reading Russian propaganda trolls. Been there, done that, no more.

I have a weird new point of view about this kind of issue: I think it's effective, a lot more effective than anything the West does these days about crime and enemies. Although as they made a spies trade, killing all the spies against Russia in England would seem to mitigate against making any future trades, you would think. I can't see why Britain would want to bother doing that again, it just pollutes whole restaurants with exotic nerve gases or highly radioactive poisons. And makes Britain look weak.

But killing criminals or otherwise punishing them severely has not only a deterrent effect against crime but also gets rid of the criminals, which I think is actually what is wanted most. The whole West, America and Europe, is now completely unable to stop anyone from doing anything: we just pamper them and give them lots of attention the worse their crimes are. If they come in illegally hundreds on a rubber raft, the EU rushes out to rescue them, patrols to search and find such people to bring in. If it were me running the zoo, all that would come to a screeching halt, so I admire Putin's -------firm-------- approach to enemies.

Certainly in the UK, at least, we are WAY too soft on criminals. Our laws are weak, penalties likewise.

But Putin's approach is the polar opposite, and in being that way, means that actions are taken which fall outside of any legal process. In which case ... why bother with laws, at all ? Where does criminality fail, and decent, civilised values, take over ? Any agency flouting legal process puts itself outside of the law. If that could be COMMENDED, from any standpoint at all, then the rule of law loses meaning. Goodbye civilisation -- hello savagery and a thoroughly regressive existence.

Putin acts like a gangster. That goes too far. He - as a leader, and especially a powerful player on the world stage - either stands for decent, civilised values, OR, what GOOD is he ??

I do not admire Putin's approach. Certainly not ! In fact, it should worry the hell out of us all. Who's to say how far he'd take it ? He's unconstrained by values or conduct I would call civilised ... his is most definitely a 'might is right' approach.

Others, too, have taken that line.

Stalin.

Hitler.

Pol Pot ....

... etc .......

'Admirable' political figures, these ? I really think -- NOT .....

[Balu]

I make a point of not reading Russian propaganda trolls. Been there, done that, no more.

I have a weird new point of view about this kind of issue: I think it's effective, a lot more effective than anything the West does these days about crime and enemies. Although as they made a spies trade, killing all the spies against Russia in England would seem to mitigate against making any future trades, you would think. I can't see why Britain would want to bother doing that again, it just pollutes whole restaurants with exotic nerve gases or highly radioactive poisons. And makes Britain look weak.

But killing criminals or otherwise punishing them severely has not only a deterrent effect against crime but also gets rid of the criminals, which I think is actually what is wanted most. The whole West, America and Europe, is now completely unable to stop anyone from doing anything: we just pamper them and give them lots of attention the worse their crimes are. If they come in illegally hundreds on a rubber raft, the EU rushes out to rescue them, patrols to search and find such people to bring in. If it were me running the zoo, all that would come to a screeching halt, so I admire Putin's -------firm-------- approach to enemies.

Very funny post.
I want to clarify something.
First - the former colonel was handed over to the US as part of a swap deal involving espionage suspects. This is a common practice among Intelligence Services.
Second - this person was a worn out material for his owners, a garbage with NO value neither for Americans, nor for Brits.
Third - Russians are no SO stupid as Americans and Brits, who believed in such a bull shit to arrange themselves anti Russian information campaign just before presidential election.
Some one here asked to follow a formal logic. But there are two necessary conditions for this:
1. To have brains,
2. To be accustomed to use them.

[aboutime]

This is an ongoing story ... however ... it seemingly has echoes of the Litvinenko poisoning, widely attributed to be a result of direction given by Putin at the time.

Reminders of the Litvinenko case ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2016/03/21/the-poisoning-of-ex-kgb-spy-alexander-litvinenko---in-90-seconds/



http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/alexander-litvinenko-inquiry-timeline-poisoning-former-russian-spy-1539094

Now, to this latest incident.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43295134



I think this story is worth keeping an eye on. It IS still a developing story. If nothing else, confirmation of what's feared to be true will prove that Russia's predisposition to murdering Russians who act against that country's tyranny has not changed.

[I look forward to seeing @Balu (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=3557) do his utmost to sanitise his country's reputation, in the wake of reports such as these .... maybe he'll even offer a defence .. ?]

Sir Drummond. I agree, keeping an eye on this story. And, I might add. We shouldn't DISCOUNT any relationship that occurs with the Clinton Foundation, or Hillary for that matter.
Though some would insist it's purely Conspiracy, or Coincidence....There is a long line of suspicous DEATHS related to Hillary, and Bill.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e0/a9/85/e0a985c2605163e0d2bb335914648cce--know-the-truth-american-pride.jpg

https://christcenteredteaching.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/wp-image-157181327png.png

[Gunny]

Very funny post.
I want to clarify something.
First - the former colonel was handed over to the US as part of a swap deal involving espionage suspects. This is a common practice among Intelligence Services.
Second - this person was a worn out material for his owners, a garbage with NO value neither for Americans, nor for Brits.
Third - Russians are no SO stupid as Americans and Brits, who believed in such a bull shit to arrange themselves anti Russian information campaign just before presidential election.
Some one here asked to follow a formal logic. But there are two necessary conditions for this:
1. To have brains,
2. To be accustomed to use them.

I'd say you're pretty well fucked then

[aboutime]

Very funny post.
I want to clarify something.
First - the former colonel was handed over to the US as part of a swap deal involving espionage suspects. This is a common practice among Intelligence Services.
Second - this person was a worn out material for his owners, a garbage with NO value neither for Americans, nor for Brits.
Third - Russians are no SO stupid as Americans and Brits, who believed in such a bull shit to arrange themselves anti Russian information campaign just before presidential election.
Some one here asked to follow a formal logic. But there are two necessary conditions for this:
1. To have brains,
2. To be accustomed to use them.

Balu. You and your endless propaganda here finally shows us that YOU...suffer from the LACK of both Number 1. and Number 2. above. AND THAT'S ONLY FUNNY TO ALL OF US.

[mundame]

Certainly in the UK, at least, we are WAY too soft on criminals. Our laws are weak, penalties likewise.

But Putin's approach is the polar opposite, and in being that way, means that actions are taken which fall outside of any legal process. In which case ... why bother with laws, at all ? Where does criminality fail, and decent, civilised values, take over ? Any agency flouting legal process puts itself outside of the law. If that could be COMMENDED, from any standpoint at all, then the rule of law loses meaning. Goodbye civilisation -- hello savagery and a thoroughly regressive existence.

Putin acts like a gangster. That goes too far. He - as a leader, and especially a powerful player on the world stage - either stands for decent, civilised values, OR, what GOOD is he ??

I do not admire Putin's approach. Certainly not ! In fact, it should worry the hell out of us all. Who's to say how far he'd take it ? He's unconstrained by values or conduct I would call civilised ... his is most definitely a 'might is right' approach.

Others, too, have taken that line.

Stalin.

Hitler.

Pol Pot ....

... etc .......

'Admirable' political figures, these ? I really think -- NOT .....

Yes, well........it makes little sense to do that spies trade and then send in the nerve gas assassins. It can hardly be anyone else but Putin, after all, and it's hard to understand. I mean, hey, just keep the guy there and off him whenever at everyone's convenience, I would think, rather than hunting him through England. Putin must be making some sort of diplomatic point that I am not understanding, but that perhaps people high up in the British government do understand.

This just in, AP News 3/8/2018 about 3:00 PM

UK police: 21 people sought treatment after ex-spy poisoning

By GREGORY KATZ and DANICA KIRKA


51 minutes ago


https://www.apnews.com/a8806b97be224919a738efd4cf961443


LONDON (AP) — A British police official on Thursday updated the number of people who sought treatment after a nerve agent attack on an ex-Russian spy, saying “around 21” had been given medical help and support.

Only three people remain hospitalized after the poisoning Sunday...........
************************************************** ******************

The spy, his daughter, and the policeman who tried to help them are still hospitalized and in serious condition.

[hjmick]

Well, at least he wasn't shot...

[mundame]

Well, at least he wasn't shot...

;)

[Drummond]

Very funny post.
I want to clarify something.
First - the former colonel was handed over to the US as part of a swap deal involving espionage suspects. This is a common practice among Intelligence Services.
Second - this person was a worn out material for his owners, a garbage with NO value neither for Americans, nor for Brits.
Third - Russians are no SO stupid as Americans and Brits, who believed in such a bull shit to arrange themselves anti Russian information campaign just before presidential election.
Some one here asked to follow a formal logic. But there are two necessary conditions for this:
1. To have brains,
2. To be accustomed to use them.

I disagree. He did have value. Propaganda value. The 'value' of showing others that they oppose Putin at their peril ... in the same way as others would've feared providing opposition to Al Capone, say, or Hitler.

Which IS Putin, anyway ? A gangster leader, or a more ruthless form of despot ? Either way, the message is clear: oppose me, and whatever your future status or circumstances, FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE.

Gangster or Tyrant ? Which do you pick, Balu ?

-- Suggest you look over your shoulder before answering ..... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Drummond]

Yes, well........it makes little sense to do that spies trade and then send in the nerve gas assassins. It can hardly be anyone else but Putin, after all, and it's hard to understand. I mean, hey, just keep the guy there and off him whenever at everyone's convenience, I would think, rather than hunting him through England. Putin must be making some sort of diplomatic point that I am not understanding, but that perhaps people high up in the British government do understand.

This just in, AP News 3/8/2018 about 3:00 PM

UK police: 21 people sought treatment after ex-spy poisoning

By GREGORY KATZ and DANICA KIRKA


51 minutes ago


https://www.apnews.com/a8806b97be224919a738efd4cf961443


LONDON (AP) — A British police official on Thursday updated the number of people who sought treatment after a nerve agent attack on an ex-Russian spy, saying “around 21” had been given medical help and support.

Only three people remain hospitalized after the poisoning Sunday...........
************************************************** ******************

The spy, his daughter, and the policeman who tried to help them are still hospitalized and in serious condition.

The figure is correct .. 21 people needed medical attention. The police officer involved is now said to be conscious.

I think that two distinct messages are intended to come from this attack. One: 'mess' with Putin, and one day, his goons will get you. But, also, two: our methods of attack are meant to show everyone just how much contempt we have for non-Russians. If others get killed because we use methods that endanger them ... so what ! We'll just keep on using them, regardless ...

When Litvinenko was poisoned with polonium, all those years ago, such was the strength of the radiation dose that other places in London he went to, afterwards, were also irradiated ! So --- WHY use lethal methods which pose a danger for others nearby, UNLESS this is meant to give everyone the message -- 'we Russians will do just as we please. Might Is Right. We care not a jot for consequences to others. We only have contempt for any outsiders'.

By no stretch of the imagination is there anything to 'admire' in any of this !!

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Balu is a Russian propagandist.

Next...

[Gunny]

I disagree. He did have value. Propaganda value. The 'value' of showing others that they oppose Putin at their peril ... in the same way as others would've feared providing opposition to Al Capone, say, or Hitler.

Which IS Putin, anyway ? A gangster leader, or a more ruthless form of despot ? Either way, the message is clear: oppose me, and whatever your future status or circumstances, FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE.

Gangster or Tyrant ? Which do you pick, Balu ?

-- Suggest you look over your shoulder before answering ..... :rolleyes::rolleyes:Balu likes to talk about how powerful and all Russia is ... well, if Russia is so powerful, how come it had to invade Ukraine to steal its oil? Must not have any of their own so they figured they'd just take someone else's.

Did you say gangster? Bully sounds more like it.

[Drummond]

Balu is a Russian propagandist.

Next...

Without a doubt.

Still ... this is one propagandist who has access to free-thinking from Western minds. Is he capable of learning anything of value from us ?

I'm guessing ... not.

It'd be interesting if he did, though. A Russian who comes to understand that he might be wrong in certain of his perspectives ...

[Gunny]

:dance:
Without a doubt.

Still ... this is one propagandist who has access to free-thinking from Western minds. Is he capable of learning anything of value from us ?

I'm guessing ... not.

It'd be interesting if he did, though. A Russian who comes to understand that he might be wrong in certain of his perspectives ...He's not here to learn. He's not really even here to try and change anyone's mind. He's dumber than he looks if he is.

He's here to simply irritate whoever he can. He's as stuck in the 50s Cold War as Kim jung Un.

[Drummond]

Balu likes to talk about how powerful and all Russia is ... well, if Russia is so powerful, how come it had to invade Ukraine to steal its oil? Must not have any of their own so they figured they'd just take someone else's.

Did you say gangster? Bully sounds more like it.

I stand corrected. Agreed. Bully fits a lot better.

Perhaps Balu can take you on, on your point. He's so full of nationalistic pride (and it's a version which has shown a disdain for Ukraine in the past) ... OK .. let him propagandize his way out of that one.:rolleyes:

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Without a doubt.

Still ... this is one propagandist who has access to free-thinking from Western minds. Is he capable of learning anything of value from us ?

I'm guessing ... not.

It'd be interesting if he did, though. A Russian who comes to understand that he might be wrong in certain of his perspectives ...
I rather doubt it, bro. Balu sounds like he's a fully indoctrinated Russian.

I don't respect him though because what he spews is pure propaganda. He surely doesn't speak for the Russian people at large. I think our Polite Russian is more in line with the Russian people than Balu is.

[Balu]

Balu is a Russian propagandist.

Next...

Well... some more from propaganda...
Once you appealed to logic. Let's try. Tell yourself, were Russians interested in starting anti Russian information campaign in the West just prior to election? If not, who may be the beneficiary, cui prodest?

[Drummond]

:dance:He's not here to learn. He's not really even here to try and change anyone's mind. He's dumber than he looks if he is.

He's here to simply irritate whoever he can. He's as stuck in the 50s Cold War as Kim jung Un.

A brainwashed idiot. It fits.

Ok, well, on that basis, Balu has his entertainment value.

He can show us, through his offerings, just how much better the West's societies are than his own .. without ever realising what he's doing .....

Bring it on, Balu .... :poke:

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Well... some more from propaganda...
Once you appealed to logic. Let's try. Tell yourself, were Russians interested in starting anti Russian information campaign in the West just prior to election? If not, who may be the beneficiary, cui prodest?
You Russians meld in all world affairs, so does America, so does China, European nations, etc, we all do. We all just hope we don't get caught.

Don't tell me they don't. We all know they do. Cyber warfare is very real and goes on constantly.

[Drummond]

I rather doubt it, bro. Balu sounds like he's a fully indoctrinated Russian.

I don't respect him though because what he spews is pure propaganda. He surely doesn't speak for the Russian people at large. I think our Polite Russian is more in line with the Russian people than Balu is.

... which makes Polite Russian a very welcome addition to this community !

I don't respect our propagandist 'chum' either. There's nothing to respect.

[Balu]

You Russians meld in all world affairs, so does America, so does China, European nations, etc, we all. We all just hope we don't get caught.

Don't tell me they don't. We all know they do. Cyber warfare is very real and goes on constantly.

It is a pity, but I got no reply to a VERY simple question. You failed to do it if follow elementary logic. What I saw in response - a terry propaganda from YOUR side.

[Gunny]

It is a pity, but I got no reply to a VERY simple question. You failed to do it if follow elementary logic. What I saw in response - a terry propaganda from YOUR side.There is nothing logical about you. If there was, you would know that when making a point with pure logic arrogance, a false sense of superiority, and propaganda are unnecessary to the facts.

[Balu]

I rather doubt it, bro. Balu sounds like he's a fully indoctrinated Russian.

I don't respect him though because what he spews is pure propaganda. He surely doesn't speak for the Russian people at large. I think our Polite Russian is more in line with the Russian people than Balu is.

A very strange and baseless conclusion, if take into account that about 80% Russians are supporting Putin and the policy he conducts.

[Drummond]

A very strange and baseless conclusion, if take into account that about 80% Russians are supporting Putin and the policy he conducts.

To what extent do the Russian people have any realistic grasp of world affairs ? Your media is still run under Kremlin control, is it not ? Russians 'know' what their leadership deign to tell them.

You yourself illustrate, very well indeed, the propagandist nature of so-called 'dissemination' of 'facts' that's employed.

Eighty percent support ... it's unrealistic. Reminds me of the Saddam era, in Iraq, when he claimed support from his so-called 'electorate' (which in truth was nothing of the kind; Saddam was a dictator) ... and claimed it to come from almost all of Iraqis.

So tell me. How many of those 'eighty percent' DARE NOT voice opposition to Putin ?

[Drummond]

This story is still ongoing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43344725


About 180 military personnel have been deployed to Salisbury to help in the investigation into the attempted murder of an ex-Russian spy and his daughter.

The personnel - from the Army, Royal Marines and RAF - are experts in chemical warfare and decontamination.

Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia remain in a critical condition after being exposed to a nerve agent.

Home Secretary Amber Rudd will chair a meeting of the government's emergency committee, Cobra, on Saturday.

She has described Sunday's attack as "outrageous".

Those deployed include instructors from the Defence Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Centre and the 29 Explosive Ordnance Group, who are experts in bomb disposal.

Eighteen vehicles have also been sent.

Members of the military were seen covering over a police car that has been at Salisbury Hospital since Sunday, before men dressed in white hazardous materials suits examined it.

Specialist officers have also put up a tent over the grave of Mr Skripal's son, who died last year, at Salisbury cemetery.

The Metropolitan Police said the counter-terrorism unit has requested the military's assistance "to remove a number of vehicles and objects from the scene", including ambulances that may have been contaminated while assisting the victims.



http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11293&stc=1




http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11294&stc=1


If a foreign power committed such an act on US soil, surely, it'd be considered an act of war ??

[aboutime]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/60991240/i-say-boy-pay-attentioni-said-this-is-depressing-that-boys-as-smart-as-a-bag-of-hammers.jpg

OR
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8180/8029255902_6ef0cb661d.jpg

With Their constant Propaganda antics

[mundame]

I think that two distinct messages are intended to come from this attack. One: 'mess' with Putin, and one day, his goons will get you. But, also, two: our methods of attack are meant to show everyone just how much contempt we have for non-Russians. If others get killed because we use methods that endanger them ... so what ! We'll just keep on using them, regardless ...

When Litvinenko was poisoned with polonium, all those years ago, such was the strength of the radiation dose that other places in London he went to, afterwards, were also irradiated ! So --- WHY use lethal methods which pose a danger for others nearby, UNLESS this is meant to give everyone the message -- 'we Russians will do just as we please. Might Is Right. We care not a jot for consequences to others. We only have contempt for any outsiders'.



I really like this analysis. Yeah ----- we Just Don't Care who is hurt where, say the Russkies. I can see that would be in Russian interests, to make it clear, repeatedly, that they are hard, not soft.

I still am not getting why they made the spy trade at all: you would think they might want to keep that option open, but apparently not. I can't see why Britain would ever want to bring yet more errant Russians to London just to get dozens of people poisoned or irradiated and the attention of the world focused on how helpless they are. Putin must not think these spy trade deals are an advantage to him, relative to making the political point worldwide that they can strike against enemies of the state at any time, anywhere.

[Drummond]

I really like this analysis. Yeah ----- we Just Don't Care who is hurt where, say the Russkies. I can see that would be in Russian interests, to make it clear, repeatedly, that they are hard, not soft.

I still am not getting why they made the spy trade at all: you would think they might want to keep that option open, but apparently not. I can't see why Britain would ever want to bring yet more errant Russians to London just to get dozens of people poisoned or irradiated and the attention of the world focused on how helpless they are. Putin must not think these spy trade deals are an advantage to him, relative to making the political point worldwide that they can strike against enemies of the state at any time, anywhere.

For me, this 'we as Russians don't need or want to care about the fate of foreigners' attitude reminds me rather too much of Hitler's 'Master Race' approach. There's scant regard for human life in any of this. Certainly not the target(s) intended .. nor yet the others who innocently get caught up in these assassinations.

What kind of assassin deliberately uses a means of inflicting death which, by its nature, WILL harm others not intended as actual victims ?

There's a word I believe adequately fits. That word is 'TERRORISM'.

For all of Putin's avowed opposition to terrorism, there are times when he himself is no better. That is the truth here. We in the West trust him at our peril.

As for the spy trade involved .. wasn't that originally between the Americas and Russians ? The Russians we're discussing chose, for whatever reason, to settle in the UK instead of the US. Why would we take them ? I haven't a clue.

But as for being put off because of any perceivable future threat ... well, we don't think like that, here. We don't bow to such pressures.

[mundame]

As for the spy trade involved .. wasn't that originally between the Americas and Russians ? The Russians we're discussing chose, for whatever reason, to settle in the UK instead of the US. Why would we take them ? I haven't a clue.


This event is still being covered in what passes for news here. But I have not heard about any American connection. We are hearing it was wholly a British-Russian spy trade: if you read otherwise, I'd be interested.

I am intrigued because we have a Witness Protection Program for such situations and a large enough country to pull it off, usually. This is the plot of a thousand novels and at least one recent movie, the bad guys trying to find the person concealed by the Program. If we ever do such a trade, it is very obvious from events in Britain that we would have to put the traded spies in Witness Protection, or suffer the same terrorism, unless for no reason that is clear to me, the Russians are afraid to do that to us. Trump? We may just not have any traded spies. I haven't heard of any.

I guess there is nothing much the British government can do to Russia, and they didn't do it last time with the radiation, either. They are saying in the news that it has to be proven.............how do you do that? Can't be done. It's the same with hacking attacks. Russia, China, North Korea --- or just criminals. Or just vandals from Anonymous. It's really impossible to tell.

Of course, that never REALLY matters. In case of a genuine Act of War that must be instantly replied to, I have understood for a long time that it never matters who actually did it. A dirty bomb in New York Harbor, our payment systems nation-wide suddenly taken down ---- no one is going to run around trying to find "proof," at least not in the open. They'll choose the most problematic enemy of the moment (like Bush chose Iraq, though Iraq had nothing to do with the Towers coming down) and declare war on them. That's how the world really works.

Britain won't reply, I'm betting -- they didn't last time, after all, and that was even worse. They can't really make war on Russia for this, after all: they'll just have to eat it. But I bet they don't take any more Russian spies! I don't think that's a question of pride issues ----- a country would be foolish to do such business with a nation that constantly sends in terrorists to kill the spies and lots of citizens to boot. Russia can't be trusted, so don't trust them.

[mundame]

There's scant regard for human life in any of this. Certainly not the target(s) intended .. nor yet the others who innocently get caught up in these assassinations.

What kind of assassin deliberately uses a means of inflicting death which, by its nature, WILL harm others not intended as actual victims ?

There's a word I believe adequately fits. That word is 'TERRORISM'.




Whoa! Again, I am very impressed with this analysis. It simply didn't occur to me, but of course you are right. It is terrorism.

Because they hardly had to do it that way! Stabbing, shooting --- why not that? It surely would have been easier than these grotesque toxic methods cast widespread, radiation and nerve poison.

The diplomat who was stabbed by a poisoned needle in an umbrella years ago on London Bridge --- Bulgarians? That was not terrorism, that was assassination plain and simple.

Remember that North Korea (presumably) had Kim's half-brother killed in an airport with another grotesque murder by nerve poison, using two beautiful young prostitutes who smeared it on his face for maximum world attention.

I've been assuming Kim was saying, we can get anyone anywhere --- but he and Putin may be saying, we can kill everyone everywhere. So I was probably mistaken that it was a private message to Russian dissidents and spies against Russia. It was also a message to the rest of the world, as terrorism always is. You can't stop us killing your citizens, so you'd better do what we say. Why Russia is sending such a message to Britain, I don't know, but maybe your higher-ups understand the international politics of this better than I do.

[Drummond]

This event is still being covered in what passes for news here. But I have not heard about any American connection. We are hearing it was wholly a British-Russian spy trade: if you read otherwise, I'd be interested.

I am intrigued because we have a Witness Protection Program for such situations and a large enough country to pull it off, usually. This is the plot of a thousand novels and at least one recent movie, the bad guys trying to find the person concealed by the Program. If we ever do such a trade, it is very obvious from events in Britain that we would have to put the traded spies in Witness Protection, or suffer the same terrorism, unless for no reason that is clear to me, the Russians are afraid to do that to us. Trump? We may just not have any traded spies. I haven't heard of any.

I guess there is nothing much the British government can do to Russia, and they didn't do it last time with the radiation, either. They are saying in the news that it has to be proven.............how do you do that? Can't be done. It's the same with hacking attacks. Russia, China, North Korea --- or just criminals. Or just vandals from Anonymous. It's really impossible to tell.

Of course, that never REALLY matters. In case of a genuine Act of War that must be instantly replied to, I have understood for a long time that it never matters who actually did it. A dirty bomb in New York Harbor, our payment systems nation-wide suddenly taken down ---- no one is going to run around trying to find "proof," at least not in the open. They'll choose the most problematic enemy of the moment (like Bush chose Iraq, though Iraq had nothing to do with the Towers coming down) and declare war on them. That's how the world really works.

Britain won't reply, I'm betting -- they didn't last time, after all, and that was even worse. They can't really make war on Russia for this, after all: they'll just have to eat it. But I bet they don't take any more Russian spies! I don't think that's a question of pride issues ----- a country would be foolish to do such business with a nation that constantly sends in terrorists to kill the spies and lots of citizens to boot. Russia can't be trusted, so don't trust them.

No - judging by what I've seen, it couldn't have solely been a UK-Russian deal. My understanding is that the US certainly played a part in it. At minimum, the FBI cooperated with us, which they could've only done, as a domestic-based organisation, if ordered to by a higher US authority ....

I think this report confirms it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43315636


Who are the victims?

Col Skripal, 66, had been living in Salisbury after being released by Russia in 2010.

Colonel Skripal is a retired Russian military intelligence officer who was convicted of passing the identities of Russian intelligence agents working undercover in Europe to the UK's Secret Intelligence Service, MI6.

He was jailed for 13 years by Russia in 2006.

In July 2010, he was one of four prisoners released by Moscow in exchange for 10 Russian spies arrested by the FBI as part of a swap. He was later flown to the UK.

The UK will certainly take some sort of stance against Russia, once official confirmation of a Russian origin for the nerve agent is released. We're told it was a 'rare' agent ... meaning it may well be possible to track its exact origin, maybe even the very laboratory which produced it. What official response we come up with may not be much, in international terms, but it will be something.

Perhaps we'd do what Trump has attempted regarding N Korea, and call upon other powers to ally with us in a common cause ... maybe yet more sanctions ? Or, maybe we'll order Russian diplomats out of our territory. I don't know.

Anyway, our media tells us that UK-Russian relations are now in 'a deep freeze'. In fact, the BBC aired, just minutes ago, a commentary-programme suggesting that Russia was heading for diplomatic isolation from the West as a whole.

I think that Russia really did mean, primarily, to send an 'oppose Putin, ever, and see what it brings you' message to other Russians. I think it was simply that. However .. Russian arrogance is such that foreign lives mean very little to them. Therefore, they've no human constraints upon the method of execution they use. Besides ... the greater the loss of life, the greater the media coverage will be of it. Russia, in sending its message, may rely upon that extent of coverage, and so will work to maximise it.

[mundame]

No - judging by what I've seen, it couldn't have solely been a UK-Russian deal. My understanding is that the US certainly played a part in it. At minimum, the FBI cooperated with us, which they could've only done, as a domestic-based organisation, if ordered to by a higher US authority ....

I think this report confirms it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43315636



The UK will certainly take some sort of stance against Russia, once official confirmation of a Russian origin for the nerve agent is released. We're told it was a 'rare' agent ... meaning it may well be possible to track its exact origin, maybe even the very laboratory which produced it. What official response we come up with may not be much, in international terms, but it will be something.

Perhaps we'd do what Trump has attempted regarding N Korea, and call upon other powers to ally with us in a common cause ... maybe yet more sanctions ? Or, maybe we'll order Russian diplomats out of our territory. I don't know.

Anyway, our media tells us that UK-Russian relations are now in 'a deep freeze'. In fact, the BBC aired, just minutes ago, a commentary-programme suggesting that Russia was heading for diplomatic isolation from the West as a whole.

I think that Russia really did mean, primarily, to send an 'oppose Putin, ever, and see what it brings you' message to other Russians. I think it was simply that. However .. Russian arrogance is such that foreign lives mean very little to them. Therefore, they've no human constraints upon the method of execution they use. Besides ... the greater the loss of life, the greater the media coverage will be of it. Russia, in sending its message, may rely upon that extent of coverage, and so will work to maximise it.

Ouch --- I see what you mean about there being some sort of American connection. Murky. Thanks, there's nothing about that here, that I've seen. I hope it wasn't in any way our fault.

I wonder if perhaps you may find the very laboratory --- we did, with that anthrax attack shortly after 9/11. Unluckily it turned out to be Maryland's own Fort Detrick, where we are really NOT supposed to be doing biowarfare [sigh]. Well, that was embarrassing. I worked at another Army base at the time, not much if any cleaner, and have always assumed since, knowing how things really work, that it was a Muslim janitor hired by a maintenance company, who just slipped the vial in his pocket. There was only one vial, a very small amount. Killed a bunch of people, though. For awhile we were all afraid of a five-gallon bucket of the stuff.

I should think the relations between Britain and Russia would be in a "deep freeze"! They are certainly making a habit of this sort of thing. Casus belli is such a problem issue in these days. Hostile powers can sneak in so many subtle attacks it is hard to respond to. The days of "Tora, Tora" when hundreds of Japanese planes flew in bombing, with red suns painted under their wings, are over. Still, it's difficult to imagine who else besides Russia could have spread that nerve agent around, especially after the radiation death. Talk about a pattern!

[Drummond]

Ouch --- I see what you mean about there being some sort of American connection. Murky. Thanks, there's nothing about that here, that I've seen. I hope it wasn't in any way our fault.

I wonder if perhaps you may find the very laboratory --- we did, with that anthrax attack shortly after 9/11. Unluckily it turned out to be Maryland's own Fort Detrick, where we are really NOT supposed to be doing biowarfare [sigh]. Well, that was embarrassing. I worked at another Army base at the time, not much if any cleaner, and have always assumed since, knowing how things really work, that it was a Muslim janitor hired by a maintenance company, who just slipped the vial in his pocket. There was only one vial, a very small amount. Killed a bunch of people, though. For awhile we were all afraid of a five-gallon bucket of the stuff.

I should think the relations between Britain and Russia would be in a "deep freeze"! They are certainly making a habit of this sort of thing. Casus belli is such a problem issue in these days. Hostile powers can sneak in so many subtle attacks it is hard to respond to. The days of "Tora, Tora" when hundreds of Japanese planes flew in bombing, with red suns painted under their wings, are over. Still, it's difficult to imagine who else besides Russia could have spread that nerve agent around, especially after the radiation death. Talk about a pattern!

I see no reason at all to attribute any measure of blame on the US !! Blame where it's DUE.

We shall see where this precisely leads. News reports we get, give the impression of information being drip-fed to the general public. We'll get more news when our Government releases it .. i.e when they're ready to. They've already conducted two 'COBRA' meetings about this issue (COBRA meetings are at Governmental level; they happen in order to address security and 'emergency' issues that arise, as & when they do ..).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4663369.stm

[Drummond]

This is reminiscent of the Litvinenko poisoning, with Polonium, where traces of it were found as environmental contaminants afterwards.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43360420


Traces of the nerve agent used against former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, have been found at the restaurant where they ate on Sunday afternoon, the BBC understands.

The substance was found in one part of Zizzi in Salisbury during a continuing forensic examination.

The pair were found two hours after finishing their meal collapsed on a park bench. Both are critically ill.

No-one who was in the restaurant at the same time is thought to be in danger.

There is also no suggestion that anyone dining at the time had anything to do with the nerve agent.

The restaurant is currently surrounded by a large screen while an investigation continues inside.

Whoever did this was criminal enough, indeed, TERRORIST enough, not to care about the wellbeing of anyone unconnected with the target(s) of this assassination attempt, and was happy to endanger those innocent people. This much is surely abundantly clear.

[Drummond]

Just seen this latest report. @Balu (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=3557) is, as ever, invited to comment ....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/09/theresa-may-announce-monday-sanctions-will-take-against-russia/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb


Theresa May is expected to announce sanctions against Russia as soon as Monday as pressure mounted on her to take “meaningful” action against Vladimir Putin over the Salisbury poisoning case.

The Prime Minister is expecting to receive confirmation from the Ministry of Defence’s Porton Down laboratory over the weekend that Russia was, beyond reasonable doubt, the source of the nerve agent used in the attempted murder of former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.

.. ah, but, Balu, 'it's all anti-Russian Western propaganda' .... eh ?

Given the accuracy of the report -- Balu has one of two positions, short of outright denial, he can take.

1. Admitting that Russia IS fully responsible for the nerve agent's deployment, and assassination attempt.

2. Admitting that Russia was the supplier to - i.e the enabler of - WHATEVER TERRORIST(S) hold responsibility for perpetrating this TERRORIST INCIDENT on British territory (... since the agent was deployed as a chemical weapon, in a public place, on our soil).

[Drummond]

This helps to illustrate the criminal recklessness, the sheer contempt for human life, the perpetrators (I think the description TERRORISTS applies !) had ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43362673


Up to 500 Salisbury pub-goers and diners have been told to wash possessions as a precaution after nerve agent traces were found.

Trace amounts of the substance used to poison ex-Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter were found at the Mill pub and Zizzi restaurant.

Prof Dame Sally Davies, the chief medical officer for England, said the risk of harm was "low".

The advice applies to anyone in either venue after 13:30 on Sunday.

People who were at either venue before closure on Monday are advised to do the following:

Clothes should be washed, ideally in a washing machine

Clothes which cannot be washed, for example if they need dry cleaning, should be double bagged in plastic until further notice

Mobile phones, handbags and other electronic items should be wiped with baby wipes, which should be bagged in plastic and put in the bin

Other items such as jewellery and glasses should be washed with warm water and detergent

Hands should be washed after the handling of any items suspected of being contaminated.

Dame Sally said after "rigorous scientific analysis" there was some concern that prolonged exposure over weeks and months could cause health problems but it was "not a subject for panic".

[Drummond]

Some hours ago, Theresa May announced in the House of Commons that the nerve agent used in Salisbury was of Russian origin. It has been identified, and the particular agent used has ONLY ever been produced in Russia.

She has given the Russian Embassy until midnight, Tuesday (our time, of course) to find some way of credibly 'explaining' its use on British soil.

See ....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43377856


Former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter were poisoned by a military-grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia, Theresa May has told MP's.

The PM said it was "highly likely" Russia was responsible for the Salisbury attack.

The Foreign Office summoned Russia's ambassador to provide an explanation.

Mrs May said if there is no "credible response" by the end of Tuesday, the UK would conclude there has been an "unlawful use of force" by Moscow.

The chemical used in the attack, the PM said, has been identified as one of a group of nerve agents known as Novichok.

Mrs May said: "Either this was a direct action by the Russian state against our country, or the Russian government lost control of its potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others."

So ... did Russia order the attack ? Or, did they release it (the chemical agent) to others ? If the latter ... then, given that we're talking about a chemical weapon deployed in a civilian town, with civilians in range, we are talking about an action which amounts to a terrorist act.

This, if that's the truth of this, shoots Russia's 'We're against terrorists' propaganda completely to hell.

I look forward to @Balu (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=3557), or any passing chum of his, trying to explain any of this.

[Gunny]

Some hours ago, Theresa May announced in the House of Commons that the nerve agent used in Salisbury was of Russian origin. It has been identified, and the particular agent used has ONLY ever been produced in Russia.

She has given the Russian Embassy until midnight, Tuesday (our time, of course) to find some way of credibly 'explaining' its use on British soil.

See ....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43377856



So ... did Russia order the attack ? Or, did they release it to others ? If the latter ... then, given that we're talking about a chemical weapon deployed in a civilian town, with civilians in range, we are talking about an action which amounts to a terrorist act.

This, if that's the truth of this, shoots Russia's 'We're against terrorists' propaganda completely to hell.

I look forward to @Balu (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=3557), or any passing chum of his, trying to explain any of this.That kind of narrows it down, doesn't it?

[aboutime]

That kind of narrows it down, doesn't it?


She is just pretending to be OBAMA, and drawing a Red Line she can't support, like Obama did in Syria.
Remember. LADY MAY doesn't like President Trump, she can't even LIFT "A BIG STICK!":laugh:

Obama must be her advisor in waiting. Hidden from view as he tries to Gather U.K. members of ACORN for contributions to the demise of the U.K, and U.S.A.

[Gunny]

She is just pretending to be OBAMA, and drawing a Red Line she can't support, like Obama did in Syria.
Remember. LADY MAY doesn't like President Trump, she can't even LIFT "A BIG STICK!":laugh:

Obama must be her advisor in waiting. Hidden from view as he tries to Gather U.K. members of ACORN for contributions to the demise of the U.K, and U.S.A.I really don't know much about her other than she appears to not be real popular. Kind of dumb to levy an ultimatum if she's not going to back it up.

[Drummond]

She is just pretending to be OBAMA, and drawing a Red Line she can't support, like Obama did in Syria.
Remember. LADY MAY doesn't like President Trump, she can't even LIFT "A BIG STICK!":laugh:

Obama must be her advisor in waiting. Hidden from view as he tries to Gather U.K. members of ACORN for contributions to the demise of the U.K, and U.S.A.

Theresa May agrees with some of what President Trump stands for, and disagrees with some of it, too.

Mrs May is our Conservative Prime Minister. I grant you, she won't look much like one, compared to Trump. But I honestly think she does her best to advance a Conservative agenda, in a society which has gone much further down a Socialist road than the US has, to date.

We have our 'Brexit' to conclude ... our separation from the EU. Mrs May was a Conservative who personally voted to 'Remain' in the EU. Despite this ... she now leads the effort to get us the best trading deal possible with the EU to make our exit work as well for us as possible.

As a 'Remain' supporter, she could've done what Cameron before her did, and resign her job rather than respect the result of our Referendum. But she has done the opposite. The Referendum was never legally binding, yet, she's determined to respect the result of it, despite her own feelings about it.

[Drummond]

I really don't know much about her other than she appears to not be real popular. Kind of dumb to levy an ultimatum if she's not going to back it up.

I'm sure some of that will have been Left-wing propaganda. She leads a minority Government ... she got less support in our last election than anyone thought she'd get. Even so, her detractors thought she'd have to quit in a matter of weeks. But she's still our PM, almost a YEAR later. So she can't be all THAT unpopular, otherwise, she'd have been ousted, somehow.

Our media reckon that if the Russians don't give her a 'satisfactory' answer to all this, pronto (God knows what a satisfactory one could be !!), she'll do her best to apply pressure. One option being considered is that, as this a case of a chemical weapon unlawfully (i.e criminally and hostilely) used against our territory, it could be passed to NATO for joint agreement on action to be taken.

[Taco Junkie]

I think it was English food that killed em....

https://cdn.foodbeast.com/content/uploads/2014/07/stargazy.jpg

https://cdn.foodbeast.com/content/uploads/2014/07/spotteddick.jpg

https://cdn.foodbeast.com/content/uploads/2014/07/leverbread.jpg

:puke3:

[Gunny]

I'm sure some of that will have been Left-wing propaganda. She leads a minority Government ... she got less support in our last election than anyone thought she'd get. Even so, her detractors thought she'd have to quit in a matter of weeks. But she's still our PM, almost a YEAR later. So she can't be all THAT unpopular, otherwise, she'd have been ousted, somehow.

Our media reckon that if the Russians don't give her a 'satisfactory' answer to all this, pronto (God knows what a satisfactory one could be !!), she'll do her best to apply pressure. One option being considered is that, as this a case of a chemical weapon unlawfully (i.e criminally and hostilely) used against our territory, it could be passed to NATO for joint agreement on action to be taken.Sounds like a slap on the wrist and some meaningless sanctions if it goes the NATO route.

Is it me, or does everyone else know NATO is about as pointless as it gets? Putin is hardly going to give a crap what NATO says.

[Drummond]

I think it was English food that killed em....

https://cdn.foodbeast.com/content/uploads/2014/07/stargazy.jpg

https://cdn.foodbeast.com/content/uploads/2014/07/spotteddick.jpg

https://cdn.foodbeast.com/content/uploads/2014/07/leverbread.jpg

:puke3:

Spotted Dick is delicious, I promise you.

Ever tried black pudding .. ?

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11302&stc=1


How about Steak & Kidney pies ?

It surprised me, when I visited New York, to find that Americans associated pies so exclusively with sweet fillings, such as cherry pie, etc etc. Never, so far as I could see, do you use meat fillings for them. A pity, IF that's true ... you miss a lot ...

...no. My guess is that Russian chemical nerve agents definitely detract from the succulent dishes to be found in Salisbury, and elsewhere. Something to do with the preparation, maybe ? :puke3:

[Gunny]

We have "pot pie". Usually beef, chicken or turkey, with mixed vegetables and a broth, with a complete crust. Traditional American is apple and cherry. Pumpkin pie was probably the first. apple and cherry probably began as tarts. People here like stuff with enough sugar to rot your teeth out in a single bite. Coconut cream is my favorite. I stay strictly away from it.

We don't eat haggus though and I doubt you'll find anyone that will :laugh:

[Drummond]

Sounds like a slap on the wrist and some meaningless sanctions if it goes the NATO route.

Is it me, or does everyone else know NATO is about as pointless as it gets? Putin is hardly going to give a crap what NATO says.

NATO is one thought. Freezing the assets of Russian oligarchs, those in range of us, well, why not ? Then there's always the kicking out diplomats action ...

This might help ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43380378


UK Prime Minister Theresa May is braced to take "extensive measures" against Russia should it not offer a credible explanation of how an ex-spy and his daughter were poisoned on British soil with a military-grade nerve agent.

"Should there be no credible response," Mrs May told parliament, "we will conclude that this action amounts to an unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the United Kingdom".

But what could the UK actually do - both on its own, and with the help of allies? And how likely are the US, EU and others to be on board?

Britain could expel Russian diplomats, as it did after the poisoning of former Russian Federal Security Service operative Alexander Litvinenko in 2006 with radioactive polonium.

But many argue that this, and the other measures that were taken after that killing - including visa restrictions on Russian officials - did not go far enough. The man identified as the main suspect, Andrei Lugovoi, is not just at large, he is now a Russian MP.

So what else could the UK do?

Expel senior diplomats, perhaps even the Russian ambassador, and known Russian intelligence agents

Take some sort of action to bar wealthy Russian oligarchs from accessing their mansions and other luxuries in London, as suggested by Tory MP and House of Commons foreign affairs committee chair Tom Tugendhat. One way this could happen is through the use of Unexplained Wealth Orders, which allow government officials to seize assets including property until they have been properly accounted for.

A boycott of the Fifa World Cup in Russia later this year by officials and dignitaries - a symbolic move that UK allies are unlikely to emulate.

Taking Russian broadcasters such as RT (formerly Russia Today) off the air - broadcasting regulator Ofcom has said it will "consider the implications for RT's broadcast licences" after Mrs May speaks on Wednesday.

Pass a British version of the 2012 US Magnitsky act, which punishes Russians involved in corruption and human rights violations with asset freezes and travel bans. It is named after a Russian lawyer who died in custody after revealing alleged fraud by state officials. MPs have been pushing for a Magnitsky amendment to be added to the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill now going through Parliament.


For its part, Nato has called the attack "horrendous and completely unacceptable". Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said that the incident was of "great concern" to the alliance, which has moved in recent years to deter Russia by sending troops to Poland and the three Baltic states.

Lord Ricketts suggested one option involving Nato could be a reinforcement of resources on the group's eastern flank.

The UK could also seek to bring the issue to the UN - and seek to gather international support for action against Russia.

Theresa May has already spoken to France's President Macron and the two leaders "agreed that it would be important to continue to act in concert with allies", according to Downing Street. Although Mrs May has not yet spoken to President Trump about the case - there have been "conversations at a senior official level".

White House spokeswoman Sarah Sanders called the attack an "outrage" and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson went further, saying the attack "clearly came from Russia". President Donald Trump himself has not spoken out.

One interesting development: even the Labour Party has taken action, of a sort. I suppose it says much that people from that Party have, in the past, contributed to RT Today, an English language TV station aired here, & funded by the Kremlin (!!)

http://newspig.co.uk/labour-to-boycott-russia-today-says-john-mcdonnell/


Labour’s Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has said he won’t be making any more appearances on Kremlin-sponsored TV station Russia Today.

He said RT’s coverage “goes beyond objective journalism” and it was “right”, after events in Salisbury, that Labour MPs did not appear on it.

He also backed visa sanctions against Russians suspected of corruption.

[aboutime]

Theresa May agrees with some of what President Trump stands for, and disagrees with some of it, too.

Mrs May is our Conservative Prime Minister. I grant you, she won't look much like one, compared to Trump. But I honestly think she does her best to advance a Conservative agenda, in a society which has gone much further down a Socialist road than the US has, to date.

We have our 'Brexit' to conclude ... our separation from the EU. Mrs May was a Conservative who personally voted to 'Remain' in the EU. Despite this ... she now leads the effort to get us the best trading deal possible with the EU to make our exit work as well for us as possible.

As a 'Remain' supporter, she could've done what Cameron before her did, and resign her job rather than respect the result of our Referendum. But she has done the opposite. The Referendum was never legally binding, yet, she's determined to respect the result of it, despite her own feelings about it.

My apologies. I guess I rather expected another Maggie Thatcher to be doing what she does best. Didn't mean to offend, or insult you. Guess I'm getting too political these days???:laugh:

[Drummond]

We have "pot pie". Usually beef, chicken or turkey, with mixed vegetables and a broth, with a complete crust. Traditional American is apple and cherry. Pumpkin pie was probably the first. apple and cherry probably began as tarts. People here like stuff with enough sugar to rot your teeth out in a single bite. Coconut cream is my favorite. I stay strictly away from it.

We don't eat haggus though and I doubt you'll find anyone that will :laugh:

Pot pie sounds like something I'd enjoy.

Haggis ... I've never tried it, either. If I was ever offered any, though, I'd not refuse it ...

[Drummond]

My apologies. I guess I rather expected another Maggie Thatcher to be doing what she does best. Didn't mean to offend, or insult you. Guess I'm getting too political these days???:laugh:

There's nobody QUITE like Margaret Thatcher. I doubt we'll ever see anyone her equal emerge into British politics again.

Mrs May - operating, as she does, in a social climate strangled with political correctness, is one politician who favours cautious approaches. There are those even in her own Party who find it frustrating. But, I'm sure that she's fully up to the task of considerable toughness if she feels it's called for.

I think we'll see that for ourselves in the days ahead.

.. Balu's remarkably silent, isn't he ...... ?:laugh::laugh:

[Gunny]

My apologies. I guess I rather expected another Maggie Thatcher to be doing what she does best. Didn't mean to offend, or insult you. Guess I'm getting too political these days???:laugh:Sounds to me like we need Wonder Woman :) She can fight while I drool :)

[Balu]

Russian Foreign Ministry slams UK PM’s comments on Skripal poisoning caseRussian Politics & Diplomacy (http://tass.com/politics)
March 12, 21:01 UTC+3
Theresa May said it is "highly likely" that Russia is responsible for the poisoning of former intelligence Colonel Sergey Skripal and his daughter


https://cdn2.tass.ru/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20180312/1189297.jpg

© Alexander Scherbak/TASS




MOSCOW, March 12../TASS/. Russian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova has dubbed as a ‘circus show’ comments of UK Prime Minister Theresa May on the poisoning of Sergey Skripal, a former colonel in Russia’s GRU military intelligence, and his daughter.
"This is a circus show in Britain’s parliament," she stressed. "The conclusion is obvious - a next political media campaign based on provocation," Zakharova added.
Read also
https://phototass4.cdnvideo.ru/width/333_3412a45b/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20180312/1189295.jpg (http://tass.com/world/993628)Theresa May accuses Russia of involvement in ex-officer Skripal poisoning (http://tass.com/world/993628)



Earlier, Theresa May said it is "highly likely" that Russia is responsible for the poisoning of Sergey Skripal and his daughter.

Moscow urges London to make public the results of the investigation into the deaths of Alexander Litvinenko and Boris Berezovsky, Zakharova said.

"Before making up new stories, let somebody in the Kingdom tell us what the previous fairy-tales ended in - those about Litvinenko, Berezovsky, Perepilichny and many others who died under mysterious circumstances on British soil," the diplomat said.
Former GRU Colonel Sergey Skripal, 66, and his 33-year-old daughter Julia on March 4 suffered from the effects of an unidentified nerve agent. They were found in an unconscious condition on a bench near The Maltings shopping center in Salisbury. Both are now in hospital in critical condition.
In 2004, Skripal was arrested by the federal security service FSB, charged, tried and convicted of high treason and stripped of all ranks and awards. In 2010 he was handed over to the United States under an arrangement to exchange persons arrested on spying charges. Later in the same year Skripal settled in Britain.
Read also

Putin advises Britons to get things clear with Skripal’s poisoning (http://tass.com/politics/993585)Kremlin comments on ex-officer Skripal case (http://tass.com/politics/993561)Embassy: Russian journalists in UK receive threats as police probe ex-spy's poisoning (http://tass.com/politics/993604)Russia’s NTV correspondent in London receives threats over covering ex-spy poisoning (http://tass.com/politics/993625)







More:
http://tass.com/politics/993632

It is Highly Likely that MI-6 was engaged in this case and chemicals were stolen from stock 12 km next to place MI-6 poisoned their former and now useless worn out agent.
Another remarkable think - it took the British "specialists" A WEEK to "define" that the chemicals were of Russian origin. There are two ways - either they ARE NOT specialists, or they make fools of Brits and others.

[Drummond]

Russian Foreign Ministry slams UK PM’s comments on Skripal poisoning case

Russian Politics & Diplomacy (http://tass.com/politics)
March 12, 21:01 UTC+3
Theresa May said it is "highly likely" that Russia is responsible for the poisoning of former intelligence Colonel Sergey Skripal and his daughter




https://cdn2.tass.ru/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20180312/1189297.jpg

© Alexander Scherbak/TASS




MOSCOW, March 12../TASS/. Russian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova has dubbed as a ‘circus show’ comments of UK Prime Minister Theresa May on the poisoning of Sergey Skripal, a former colonel in Russia’s GRU military intelligence, and his daughter.
"This is a circus show in Britain’s parliament," she stressed. "The conclusion is obvious - a next political media campaign based on provocation," Zakharova added.
Read also
https://phototass4.cdnvideo.ru/width/333_3412a45b/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20180312/1189295.jpg (http://tass.com/world/993628)Theresa May accuses Russia of involvement in ex-officer Skripal poisoning (http://tass.com/world/993628)





Earlier, Theresa May said it is "highly likely" that Russia is responsible for the poisoning of Sergey Skripal and his daughter.

Moscow urges London to make public the results of the investigation into the deaths of Alexander Litvinenko and Boris Berezovsky, Zakharova said.

"Before making up new stories, let somebody in the Kingdom tell us what the previous fairy-tales ended in - those about Litvinenko, Berezovsky, Perepilichny and many others who died under mysterious circumstances on British soil," the diplomat said.
Former GRU Colonel Sergey Skripal, 66, and his 33-year-old daughter Julia on March 4 suffered from the effects of an unidentified nerve agent. They were found in an unconscious condition on a bench near The Maltings shopping center in Salisbury. Both are now in hospital in critical condition.
In 2004, Skripal was arrested by the federal security service FSB, charged, tried and convicted of high treason and stripped of all ranks and awards. In 2010 he was handed over to the United States under an arrangement to exchange persons arrested on spying charges. Later in the same year Skripal settled in Britain.
Read also

Putin advises Britons to get things clear with Skripal’s poisoning (http://tass.com/politics/993585)

Kremlin comments on ex-officer Skripal case (http://tass.com/politics/993561)

Embassy: Russian journalists in UK receive threats as police probe ex-spy's poisoning (http://tass.com/politics/993604)

Russia’s NTV correspondent in London receives threats over covering ex-spy poisoning (http://tass.com/politics/993625)









More:
http://tass.com/politics/993632

It is Highly Likely that MI-6 was engaged in this case and chemicals were stolen from stock 12 km next to place MI-6 poisoned their former and now useless worn out agent.
Another remarkable think - it took the British "specialists" A WEEK to "define" that the chemicals were of Russian origin. There are two ways - either they ARE NOT specialists, or they make fools of Brits and others.

This is the best you can do, Balu ?

All this rot you're giving us from the Russian side - dismissive of a so-called 'circus show' - addresses precisely NOTHING of what's happened.

A chemical weapon, of military grade, created in Russia, ONLY manufactured in Russia, was deployed in Salisbury. Twenty one people were affected by it, to varying degrees. The intended target of it is critically ill in hospital.

Tell me. If a Western power deployed a chemical weapon on the streets of Moscow, or any other city in Russia, how would YOU react to the officials of that Western power dismissing your outrage as 'A CIRCUS SHOW' ... ??

The facts, such as we know them, are damning. A military grade chemical, ONLY produced by Russia, was used in an assassination attempt. You cannot account for its use on British soil, can you ? All you can do is parrot a weak and derisory dismissal of them emanating from your Government.

Markov. Litvinenko. These are past examples of Russian assassinations on British soil. Now, we have this latest one. What would you have us do ... nothing, leaving your goons free to poison more people here as you see fit ?

Tyranny and murder. THESE are what you defend, Balu, IF you continue with your current line. To say nothing - considering the nature of the nerve agent used - of its terrorism aspect ... that of using a poison so toxic that it can have an effect on the surrounding environment, and surrounding population.

The nerve agent used was created and manufactured in Russia, AND NOWHERE ELSE. Explain its use in the UK.

[Gunny]

This is the best you can do, Balu ?

All this rot you're giving us from the Russian side - dismissive of a so-called 'circus show' - addresses precisely NOTHING of what's happened.

A chemical weapon, of military grade, created in Russia, ONLY manufactured in Russia, was deployed in Salisbury. Twenty one people were affected by it, to varying degrees. The intended target of it is critically ill in hospital.

Tell me. If a Western power deployed a chemical weapon on the streets of Moscow, or any other city in Russia, how would YOU react to the officials of that Western power dismissing your outrage as 'A CIRCUS SHOW' ... ??

The facts, such as we know them, are damning. A military grade chemical, ONLY produced by Russia, was used in an assassination attempt. You cannot account for its use on British soil, can you ? All you can do is parrot a weak and derisory dismissal of them emanating from your Government.

Markov. Litvinenko. These are past examples of Russian assassinations on British soil. Now, we have this latest one. What would you have us do ... nothing, leaving your goons free to poison more people here as you see fit ?

Tyranny and murder. THESE are what you defend, Balu, IF you continue with your current line. To say nothing - considering the nature of the nerve agent used - of its terrorism aspect ... that of using a poison so toxic that it can have an effect on the surrounding environment, and surrounding population.

The nerve agent used was created and manufactured in Russia, AND NOWHERE ELSE. Explain its use in the UK.The kicker to all this? The russians are so arrogant they think no one can see through their grade school crap. I mean, really. Sneaking off to a foreign country to assassinate a dissident. Someone's been watching too many James Bond movies.

They really thought they could get away with it. THAT is the killer. It's like dealing with punks on a school yard. Or my granddaughter. "I didn't take the cookie. honest". "Really? Where'd that chocolate ring around your lips come from?":rolleyes:

[Drummond]

The kicker to all this? The russians are so arrogant they think no one can see through their grade school crap. I mean, really. Sneaking off to a foreign country to assassinate a dissident. Someone's been watching too many James Bond movies.

They really thought they could get away with it. THAT is the killer. It's like dealing with punks on a school yard. Or my granddaughter. "I didn't take the cookie. honest". "Really? Where'd that chocolate ring around your lips come from?":rolleyes:

To some extent, it's the British who need to take a measure of blame for such persistent arrogance from the Russians. Markov, Litvinenko ... cases such as this, along with any others ... our response to them in the past has been too weak. Litvnenko in particular involved a radioactive correlation to this latest incident. In that case, too, a poison which also contaminated the environment where it was used, ultimately killed Litvinenko. Yes, we reacted with outrage, but very little of real worth was done in response.

So, we see this happen all over again, only with a chemical agent instead.

The arrogance from the Russians is barely fathomable in other more decent, Western minds. The truth, I think, is that they don't really CARE if they're found out (.. otherwise, they'd use methods far less traceable back to them !). They truly think they can not only get away with anything, but even that they can justly take satisfaction from it.

Balu will no doubt look at the pictures I've posted below ... Litvinenko, on his death bed, jaundiced skin colour an effect of the poison used, and he WILL NOT CARE about the circumstances, or the crime committed (he may even shrug it off as 'mere Western propaganda'). If done by Mother Russia ... well, it can be dismissed, or denied, or derided, or whatever it takes to shrug off any semblance of culpability of his people or his Government.

Might Is Right. Never mind the horrors it leads to. Simply justify everything in terms of the power you can wield. And morality, decency, be damned.

Litvinenko, when healthy, and when dying of radiation poisoning ...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11303&stc=1


These others speak for themselves ...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11304&stc=1



http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11305&stc=1

[Drummond]

The latest ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43381880


Russia will not co-operate with the UK's inquiry into how an ex-spy and his daughter were poisoned until it has been given a sample of the substance used, its foreign minister has said.

Sergei Lavrov added that claims of Russian involvement were "rubbish".

UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said the "strength of the support" from other countries was encouraging.

US President Donald Trump said he would take Britain's assessment that Russia was behind the attack "as fact".

Mr Trump said he would be speaking to Theresa May later, adding: "It sounds to me they believe it was Russia base on all the evidence they have".

Answering a separate question by reporters, he added: "As soon as we get the facts straight, if we agree with them, we will condemn Russia or whoever it may be".

No cooperation from Russia, eh ? Wow. There's a surprise !!

Apparently they want a sample of the agent used ? Why ? To help replenish stocks ??

Let's say we gave them that sample. WHY would the Russian side ever admit it came from Russia ? What possible scenario would allow for Russia to now be completely truthful and candid with the world ?? Such behaviour comes from honourable people. The perpetrators of the Salisbury atrocity are definitely NOT honourable or decent !!

[Imagine Al Capone asking for evidence that one of his henchmen had perpetrated 'a hit'. The evidence is supplied. Would Capone then admit any liability ???]

I, personally, have no objection to us supplying that sample, purely for testing purposes, of course. But to expect Russia to fairly and truthfully respond to any such outcome is to be naive in the extreme. So to do so, surely, becomes a pointless exercise.

It's not even as though this is an isolated case ! Russia has a track record of these assassinations.

[mundame]

The latest ...

Apparently they want a sample of the agent used ? Why ? To help replenish stocks ??

Let's say we gave them that sample. WHY would the Russian side ever admit it came from Russia ? What possible scenario would allow for Russia to now be completely truthful and candid with the world ?? Such behaviour comes from honourable people. The perpetrators of the Salisbury atrocity are definitely NOT honourable or decent !!

[Imagine Al Capone asking for evidence that one of his henchmen had perpetrated 'a hit'. The evidence is supplied. Would Capone then admit any liability ???]

I, personally, have no objection to us supplying that sample, purely for testing purposes, of course. But to expect Russia to fairly and truthfully respond to any such outcome is to be naive in the extreme. So to do so, surely, becomes a pointless exercise.



Worse than pointless, perhaps. If the Russians are given a sample, what would they do with it? 1) delay for many weeks "comparing." 2) Say, oh, no, this is nothing like anything we have! Not ours. So sorry somebody did that to you. Glad we could clear that up!

No, I bet your government does not give them a sample to lie about.

Well, no more spy trades to London, presumably. Telling tales to NATO doesn't seem especially productive; NATO personnel has read all the papers and can't do anything anyway.

I think they should break off diplomatic relations with Russia and expel their personnel, but they probably won't go that far.

[Drummond]

Worse than pointless, perhaps. If the Russians are given a sample, what would they do with it? 1) delay for many weeks "comparing." 2) Say, oh, no, this is nothing like anything we have! Not ours. So sorry somebody did that to you. Glad we could clear that up!

No, I bet your government does not give them a sample to lie about.

Well, no more spy trades to London, presumably. Telling tales to NATO doesn't seem especially productive; NATO personnel has read all the papers and can't do anything anyway.

I think they should break off diplomatic relations with Russia and expel their personnel, but they probably won't go that far.

They'd probably do both .. delay, then deny it was anything that they'd produced. Russia would gain advantages from a delay .. they could work behind the scenes to try to lessen diplomatic opposition to them .. they could make us all wait until after their 'elections' are finished .. and hope also in the meantime that the level of outrage felt would've itself lessened.

They may even complain that the sample given to them was of too poor a quality to determine anything from it.

As for possible action Russia can look forward to .. the usual diplomat chucking-out exercise is a foregone conclusion. They could ALL be ordered off of our territory. But, more, certain mega-rich Russians have assets tied up here. We could order them frozen, I think. No doubt any Russian thus affected would express his personal displeasure to Putin in ways he'd not appreciate !

No doubt, also, we could arrange sanctions against Russian trade.

I understand the Russians have promised us 'consequences' should we conclusively blame them. How jolly of them ... poisoned umbrellas at dawn, perhaps ?

[Drummond]

Ah, here we are. The threat of consequences will follow if we take any punitive measures against Russia. Or to put it another way ... they want to bully us into inaction. Back, in other words, to the old status quo ... where, a handful of years from now, we have our next Russian assassination and environmental clean-up to undertake (hopefully, not resulting in deaths of our own people along the way ...).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43390885


The UK's threat of "punitive" measures against Russia over the poisoning of a former spy and his daughter will "meet with a response", Russia has said.

Russia's UK embassy posted a series of tweets as a deadline looms for it to explain how a Russian-made nerve agent was used in Salisbury.

It said there would be no reply to the "ultimatum" until it was given access to samples of the substance.

No 10 said Donald Trump has told the PM the "US was with the UK all the way".

In a telephone conversation, the US president agreed with Theresa May that the Russian government "must provide unambiguous answers as to how this nerve agent came to be used" against Sergei Skripal, 66, and his daughter Yulia, 33, on 4 March. Downing Street added.

The PM has said it is "highly likely" Russia was involved in the poisoning and the UK must "stand ready" to take action.

She said details would be set out in the Commons on Wednesday should there be no "credible" explanation by midnight on Tuesday from Moscow.

[Gunny]

They'd probably do both .. delay, then deny it was anything that they'd produced. Russia would gain advantages from a delay .. they could work behind the scenes to try to lessen diplomatic opposition to them .. they could make us all wait until after their 'elections' are finished .. and hope also in the meantime that the level of outrage felt would've itself lessened.

They may even complain that the sample given to them was of too poor a quality to determine anything from it.

As for possible action Russia can look forward to .. the usual diplomat chucking-out exercise is a foregone conclusion. They could ALL be ordered off of our territory. But, more, certain mega-rich Russians have assets tied up here. We could order them frozen, I think. No doubt any Russian thus affected would express his personal displeasure to Putin in ways he'd not appreciate !

No doubt, also, we could arrange sanctions against Russian trade.

I understand the Russians have promised us 'consequences' should we conclusively blame them. How jolly of them ... poisoned umbrellas at dawn, perhaps ?Consequences if you conclusively blame them, huh? They must have gotten ALL their lines from b gangster movies.

They said on the news it was a neurotoxin developed during the 70s by the Soviets. Their whole deal sounds like something out of Kruschev's book.

[Gunny]

March 13, 2018
By Guy Faulconbridge and Michael Holden
LONDON (Reuters) – U.S. President Donald Trump and British Prime Minister Theresa May agreed on Tuesday that Russia must provide “unambiguous answers” after London gave Moscow until midnight to explain how a Soviet-era nerve weapon was used against a former Russian double agent.
May, who said on Monday it was “highly likely” that Russia was behind the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter, also won support from Britain’s main European allies and the European Union, which denounced the attack as “shocking” and offered help to track down those responsible.
Jens Stoltenberg, Secretary-General of the U.S.-led NATO alliance, said the attack was “horrendous”.
Russia, however, signalled there was little likelihood that it would respond adequately to London’s call for a credible explanation by Wednesday.
Denying it had played any part in the attack, which left the 66-year-old Skripal and his 33-year-old daughter Yulia fighting for their lives, Russia said it would ignore the ultimatum until London handed over samples (http://www.oann.com/putin-faces-british-deadline-to-explain-nerve-attack-on-former-russian-double-agent/#) of the nerve agent used and complied with international obligations for joint investigations of such incidents.
“Any threats to take ‘sanctions’ against Russia will not be left without a response,” the Russian foreign ministry said in a statement. “The British side should understand that.”
Russia holds a presidential election on Sunday in which Vladimir Putin, himself a former KGB spy, is expected to coast to a fourth (http://www.oann.com/putin-faces-british-deadline-to-explain-nerve-attack-on-former-russian-double-agent/#) term in the Kremlin.
Skripal, a former officer with Russian military intelligence, betrayed dozens of Russian agents to British intelligence before being arrested in Moscow and jailed in 2006.
He was released under a spy swap deal in 2010 and took refuge in Britain, where he had been living quietly in the cathedral city of Salisbury until he and his daughter were found unconscious on a public bench there on March 4.
A British policeman who was also affected by the nerve agent is now conscious in a serious but stable condition.
LETHAL NERVE AGENT
May said on Monday Britain had identified the substance as belonging to the lethal Novichok group of nerve agents developed by the Soviet military in the 1970s and 1980s.
She and her ministers say Britain will take further “robust” punitive action against Russian interests – beyond sanctions already in place – if Putin does not come up with a credible explanation of events.
Trump’s endorsement of Britain’s tough line, made during a phone call with May, came on the heels of messages of solidarity from France’s President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel. They gave the British prime minister additional hope of marshalling Western backing for her government as it heads towards a showdown with Putin.
“President Trump agreed with Prime Minister May that the Government of the Russian Federation must provide unambiguous answers regarding how this chemical weapon, developed in Russia, came to be used in the United Kingdom,” the White House said in a statement about the two leaders’ phone call.
“The two leaders agreed on the need for consequences for those who use these heinous weapons in flagrant violation of international norms,” it said.
May’s spokesman said Trump had said the United States was “with the U.K. all the way”.
If no satisfactory Russian response is received by midnight London time May is likely to outline Britain’s response in parliament on Wednesday.
It remains to be seen how much of a rupture in relations with Russia May’s government is prepared to envisage.
While trade figures show Russia accounts for less than 1 percent of British imports, London is of major importance for Russian companies seeking to raise capital and since the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union has become the Western capital of choice for many Russian business leaders.
Britain could call on allies for a coordinated Western response, freeze the assets of Russian business leaders and officials, expel diplomats or launch targeted cyber attacks (http://www.oann.com/putin-faces-british-deadline-to-explain-nerve-attack-on-former-russian-double-agent/#). It may also cut back participation in the soccer World Cup which Russia is hosting in June and July.
Russia Today, a round-the-clock news network that is funded by Putin’s government, could lose its licence to broadcast in Britain if May’s government determined that Moscow was behind the attack, Britain’s media regulator said.
This report drew a swift response from Russia. “Not a single British media outlet will work in our country if they shut down Russia Today (RT),” the state-run RIA news agency cited Maria Zakharova as saying on state television.
The expression of solidarity from the EU came despite tensions over British preparations to quit the bloc next year.
The EU has already imposed travel restrictions and asset freezes against 150 people and 38 companies in response to Russia’s annexation of Crimea from Ukraine. EU nationals and companies are also banned from buying or selling new bonds or equity in some state-owned Russian banks and major Russian energy companies (http://www.oann.com/putin-faces-british-deadline-to-explain-nerve-attack-on-former-russian-double-agent/#).
But diplomats in Brussels said that, despite sharing Britain’s anger, the bloc was unlikely to have much stomach (http://www.oann.com/putin-faces-british-deadline-to-explain-nerve-attack-on-former-russian-double-agent/#) for imposing additional sanctions on Russia since attributing the nerve attack to Moscow was difficult and keeping existing economic sanctions going was proving a strain.
(Reporting by Robin Emmott, Alastair Macdonald and Philip Blenkinsop in Brussels, John Irish in Paris, Andreas Rinke, Andrea Shalal in Berlin, Doina Chiacu in Washington, Andrew Osborn and Andrey Ostroukh in Moscow; Writing By Richard Balmforth; Editing by Janet Lawrence and Gareth Jones)
http://www.oann.com/putin-faces-british-deadline-to-explain-nerve-attack-on-former-russian-double-agent/

If nothing else, you got Quickdraw McGraw on your side :laugh:

[Drummond]

:rolleyes:
http://www.oann.com/putin-faces-british-deadline-to-explain-nerve-attack-on-former-russian-double-agent/

If nothing else, you got Quickdraw McGraw on your side :laugh:

Who was that sheriff who kept appearing in James Bond movies ? Ah yes, sheriff John W Pepper. A face-off between him & Putin ... that'd be something worth paying good money to see.:laugh::laugh:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11306&stc=1


It's high time some international recognition came of the need to face up to Russia over this. There have been a succession of these assassinations over the years, and evidently, Russia fully expects to get away with this, no doubt leaving the way open for yet more criminal / terrorist activity to take place.

Today, the UK. Who's to say tomorrow it won't be US soil where this happens ?

Let a bully off ... the bully learns nothing. Stand up to one, and it's a different story.

Consider the Krushchev-Kennedy standoff, 1962, Cuban Missile Crisis. Ultimately, Russia blinked, then folded (no doubt Balu has his own totally different version to 'delight' us all with ..).

It really is the only way to deal with them. When dealing with an opponent bereft of decency, for whom Might is Always Right .. what else is left to you ?

By the way ... I just noted Russia's threat against us should we close down access to the Kremlin's 'Russia Today' TV station. Oh dear - shocking news !! :rolleyes:Russia really hates to have its propaganda outlets countered !! Seems any British channels available to Russians, now, soon WON'T be, unless the thugs in the Kremlin win out !!

[Gunny]

Who was that sheriff who kept appearing in James Bond movies ? Ah yes, sheriff John W Pepper. A face-off between him & Putin ... that'd be something worth paying good money to see.:laugh::laugh:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11306&stc=1


It's high time some international recognition came of the need to face up to Russia over this. There have been a succession of these assassinations over the years, and evidently, Russia fully expects to get away with this, no doubt leaving the way open for yet more criminal / terrorist activity to take place.

Today, the UK. Who's to say tomorrow it won't be US soil where this happens ?

Let a bully off ... the bully learns nothing. Stand up to one, and it's a different story.

Consider the Krushchev-Kennedy standoff, 1962, Cuban Missile Crisis. Ultimately, Russia blinked, then folded (no doubt Balu has his own totally different version to 'delight' us all with ..).

It really is the only way to deal with them. When dealing with an opponent bereft of decency, for whom Might is Always Right .. what else is left to you ?That guy was hilarious. He passed on a year or two back.

I've been wondering if Balu IS Putin. They talk the same junk, Always trying to make up for losing in the past. Right down to Putin showing a film of his latest, greatest missile.

Makes you wonder :laugh:

[Drummond]

That guy was hilarious. He passed on a year or two back.

I've been wondering if Balu IS Putin. They talk the same junk, Always trying to make up for losing in the past. Right down to Putin showing a film of his latest, greatest missile.

Makes you wonder :laugh:

A shame. I enjoyed his character.

Balu = Putin. H'm !

I suppose I'd better start casting wary glances at any umbrella I come across. Heaven forbid I start glowing in the dark .... and if any much-enjoyed Black Pudding dishes start tasting less than delicious, I shall be contacting our intelligence services without delay.

[Gunny]

March 13, 2018
LONDON (Reuters) – British counter-terrorism police were on Tuesday investigating the unexplained death of a Russian associate of late tycoon Boris Berezovsky but said the death was not thought to be linked to a nerve agent attack on a former Russian double agent.
Nikolai Glushkov, 68, was discovered dead late on Monday at an address in Clarence Avenue in suburban south-west London.
British police, who did not name Glushkov, said that they were investigating the death of a man in his 60s who lived on Clarence Avenue.
Police said the death was not linked to the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Salisbury.
“There is no evidence to suggest a link to the incident in Salisbury,” the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
Counter-terrorism police were leading the investigation “because of associations that the man is believed to have had.”
Berezovsky was found dead in March 2013 with a scarf tied around his neck in the bathroom of a luxury mansion in Ascot, an affluent English town near the Queen’s Windsor Castle, west of London.
The 67-year-old tycoon had been one of Russia’s most powerful figures in the years after the collapse of the Soviet Union. He was known as the “godfather of the Kremlin” before fleeing to London in 2000 after a row with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.
Britain granted Berezovsky political asylum three years later on the grounds his life would be in danger if he went back home.
His family feared he might have been murdered by enemies in Russia, but British police and forensic experts concluded Berezovsky had committed suicide.
Glushkov had worked for Russian airline Aeroflot and at Berezovksy’s LogoVAZ car company.
(Reporting by Guy Faulconbridge and Alistair Smout; editing by Stephen Addison)
http://www.oann.com/russian-associate-of-late-tycoon-berezovsky-found-dead-in-britain/

Hey, they didn't use poison this time :laugh:

[Drummond]

http://www.oann.com/russian-associate-of-late-tycoon-berezovsky-found-dead-in-britain/

Hey, they didn't use poison this time :laugh:

H'm. Are they running out of supplies of it ?

Whoops. Looks like we dare not give them the sample we have !! :laugh:

I've been watching the Russia Today channel (... before it's taken off air ?). Sure enough, they're propagandising their guts out. The latest ... the agent used in Salisbury is 'not' exclusive to Russia, after all (... they suddenly claim !! ...). First produced in Russia, but the latest line of theirs is that this agent, in modern times, could've come from anywhere.

:lame2::lame2::lame2::lame2::lame2::lame2:

Seems to me, then, that there's no point to providing the Russians with our sample. They'll just deny it's of Russian origin.

'Funny' how it's taken so long for Russia to tell us this so-called 'fact' of theirs. Isn't it ?

Balu, my son, I hope you're taking notes. You really need to be on the ball when it comes to official Russian inventiveness (no matter how :lame2:!)

[Drummond]

This story is gaining greater prominence, now, as the UK police have confirmed it's being treated officially as a murder inquiry. It's also now getting 'lead story' status among our news outlets in the UK.

I've opened up my own thread on this. But, as to where this now stands ... here's a BBC report on it ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43433552


UK police have launched a murder investigation after the death of Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov in south-west London.

Mr Glushkov was found dead at his home in New Malden on 12 March.

A post-mortem examination revealed Mr Glushkov, who was 68, died from "compression to the neck".

There is, at this stage, no evidence linking the death to the attempted murder of a former Russian spy and his daughter in Salisbury, police say.

Detectives are retaining an open mind and are appealing for any information that will assist the investigation.

In particular, they are appealing for anyone who may have seen or heard anything suspicious at or near his home in Clarence Avenue, New Malden, between Sunday 11 March and Monday 12 March to contact them.

Police on Friday continued to guard the home lived in by Mr Glushkov. A blue and a purple tent was erected to cover the front drive of the property, which has been cordoned off along with several adjoining properties either side.

Mr Glushkov is the former deputy director of Russian state airline Aeroflot.

He was jailed in 1999 for five years after being charged with money laundering and fraud.

After being given a suspended sentence for another count of fraud in 2006, he was granted political asylum in the UK in 2010 and became a critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Former PR and advertising executive Lord Bell, who was a close friend of Mr Glushkov, described him as a "very charming, funny, affectionate man who had a troubled past".

He said he was "concerned" his friend's past might have made Russia consider him to have worked against the state.

So, another opponent of Putin dies, again on British soil. This, 'happening' to occur just a couple of days before the election in Russia ....

[Gunny]

This story is gaining greater prominence, now, as the UK police have confirmed it's being treated officially as a murder inquiry. It's also now getting 'lead story' status among our news outlets in the UK.

I've opened up my own thread on this. But, as to where this now stands ... here's a BBC report on it ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43433552



So, another opponent of Putin dies, again on British soil. This, 'happening' to occur just a couple of days before the election in Russia ....I'm curious though. Why WOULD Putin do something this dumb right before and election?

The next questions would be, Who has the authority to order such a hit, and who has the authority and something to gain by throwing mud Putin's way right before an election? I have no idea. Perhaps we can be enlightened whenever our Russian members check back in.here

It's Fri night. They're probably out partying :laugh: I would be if I was still 35. I don't know what time it is there. Maybe they're sleeping it off.

As an aside, I didn't realize until recently looking at a map how close we lived to Ukraine (the USSR then) when my father was stationed in Turkey and I didn't have a clue. We lived right across the Black Sea from Crimea.

Thanks Dad :laugh: Nothing like cluing us in we were on the damned front lines of the Cold War.

[aboutime]

Like Hillary. It seems Putin is methodically removing any threats to his survival as a Dictator.

The numbers may be lower, but it appears to me, those who pose any kind of interference to Putin...like Hillary...somehow become....DEAD!

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e0/a9/85/e0a985c2605163e0d2bb335914648cce--know-the-truth-american-pride.jpghttps://ic.pics.livejournal.com/oleg_leusenko/26655385/2556016/2556016_original.png

[Gunny]

I cannot figure out that alphabet for shit :laugh:

[Drummond]

I'm curious though. Why WOULD Putin do something this dumb right before and election?

The next questions would be, Who has the authority to order such a hit, and who has the authority and something to gain by throwing mud Putin's way right before an election? I have no idea. Perhaps we can be enlightened whenever our Russian members check back in.here

It's Fri night. They're probably out partying :laugh: I would be if I was still 35. I don't know what time it is there. Maybe they're sleeping it off.

As an aside, I didn't realize until recently looking at a map how close we lived to Ukraine (the USSR then) when my father was stationed in Turkey and I didn't have a clue. We lived right across the Black Sea from Crimea.

Thanks Dad :laugh: Nothing like cluing us in we were on the damned front lines of the Cold War.

Just on your first question ... Putin wouldn't consider it dumb, I'm sure. He'd consider it smart. If he's as stuck in his KGB mentality as I suspect, he might even consider there was a necessity to do all that.

I don't think Putin's psychology is readily understood in the West.

Might is Right. Putin and his ilk are firm believers in that. Whatever achieves the desired effect, is 'fine' ... or ... 'The end justifies the means'. Putin wants any opposition out there neutralised. He doubtless considers the news of his own opponents meeting grisly ends is a quick and efficient way of forcefully getting the message out there which has opponents too cowed to speak or act.

Decency, regard for life, a spirit of freedom, any values we will recognise as Christian ... these are foreign to his thinking. He wants power. If he can get it through persuasion and charm, then fine. If not, he'll use whatever it takes as a substitute, just so long as it stands a chance of being effective.

It's a soul-less form of thinking. But it fits the old Soviet version of sheer ruthlessness well. Putin is of that school of thought, and so far as he's concerned, the whole world must bend to it. Accept him, his authority, or ... PAY for your temerity in resisting.

Putin will genuinely never feel any sense of responsibility for the Russian deaths on UK soil ... past, present, future. His total lack of moral restraint is, I'm very sure, one massive headache for the world's security.

[Gunny]

I got the same vibe from Papodarko and Balu as well. "We took Crimea and they couldn't stop us so it's fine to do it". I understand the mindset. I just don't see a point to it. Most ruthless people kill for a reason, not sport, as many believe. They aren't "sick" in the sense of the way we term it. It's just expedient to a sociopath. In this case, i don't see the gain. Sociopaths usually operate based on what is in their way currently with little regard for revenge.

[Drummond]

I got the same vibe from Papodarko and Balu as well. "We took Crimea and they couldn't stop us so it's fine to do it". I understand the mindset. I just don't see a point to it. Most ruthless people kill for a reason, not sport, as many believe. They aren't "sick" in the sense of the way we term it. It's just expedient to a sociopath. In this case, i don't see the gain. Sociopaths usually operate based on what is in their way currently with little regard for revenge.

The 'gain' is simple. Make those who'd be your opponents, NOT your opponents. Kill to dissuade others from standing against you: make them examples of what happens to opponents who won't 'behave'.

The Soviet Union was always about iron control. Hungary, 1956 ... Czechoslovakia, 1968 .. each examples of States within the Soviet Union not conforming to required 'norms'. So, iron control was brought to bear.

Putin's set in the same mentality which was uppermost back then. He applies it today. As to 'point' ... power is its own end, I think Putin would believe. You exercise it to maintain it, no matter what it takes, and nothing, but nothing, can be allowed to intrude into the process.

I don't think the assassinations in the UK were about revenge -- rather, about 'good housekeeping'. Opponents were dispensed with, much as a housewife would dispose of trash. In the process, a message has been sent out to others in the clearest possible terms. Putin expects it to be heeded.

Crimea was a territory sufficiently ripe for the taking. So, it WAS. Putin is not shy of making the world understand that, come-what-may, this is a status quo he will not allow to change. If he thinks others may see this as odious, as contemptuously controlling, as trampling on the rights of others, he doesn't care.

Might is Right. Putin has the Might. Therefore, in Putin's terms, he's 'Right'.

And to hell with everyone, and everything, else. Decency. Democratic freedom. Indeed, freedom of any description. If it gets in the way, it isn't to be considered.