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JohnDoe
08-18-2007, 07:38 AM
What do you guys make of this? Frist, that Gonzalez and Card tried to strongarm Ashcroft on his death bed to reapprove the spying program that Ashcroft had said WAS ILLEGAL, while he was in his "sick bed" in the hospital after MAJOR surgery?

What do you make of Gonzalez lying under oath about the situation, is it Perjury? I think it just might be perjury!

And lastly, didn't they break the law by continuing the program that Ashcroft would not resign on to, by continuing this spying on Americans program for 3 weeks after the program expired?





FBI chief's notes: Ashcroft 'feeble,' 'stressed' after Gonzales visit
Story Highlights
FBI director backs up earlier descriptions of dispute during 2004 hospital visit

At issue visit by Alberto Gonzales, another White House aide to John Ashcroft

Panel chairman: Notes show White House trying to strong-arm ailing Ashcroft

Gonzales denies visit about government's warrantless wiretapping program

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The White House demanded in 2004 that the Justice Department approve a secret national security program without allowing the ailing attorney general, "feeble, barely articulate, clearly stressed," to discuss the matter with top advisers, according to the FBI director's personal notes.

The partially censored notes from FBI chief Robert S. Mueller, dated March 12, 2004, describe a distraught and feeble Attorney General John Ashcroft in his hospital room just moments after being visited by then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales and Andy Card, the president's chief of staff at the time.

Mueller's account backs up earlier descriptions of the dispute over whether to continue the program despite Justice Department concerns about its legality.

Last month, Mueller told a House committee that the clash was about the government's warrantless wiretapping; Gonzales and the White House denied that and said it was about other intelligence activities.

"Saw AG," Mueller wrote in his timed log of the events on the evening of March 10, 2004. "Janet Ashcroft in the room. AG is feeble, barely articulate, clearly stressed." Ashcroft was in the hospital with pancreatitis.

Before seeing Ashcroft, Mueller met with then-Deputy Attorney General Jim Comey at the hospital about 7:40 p.m., the notes indicate. Comey said Ashcroft told Card and Gonzales that he would not approve the classified terrorist surveillance program, which was set to expire the next day.

"The AG then reviewed for them the legal concerns relating to the program," Mueller's notes show. "The AG also told them that he was barred from obtaining the advice he needed on the program by the strict compartmentalization rules of the WH."

Gonzales became attorney general less than a year later.

White House spokesman Tony Fratto said Thursday that Ashcroft was fully briefed on the program but could not discuss it with advisers who were not. Fratto declined further comment.

The notes were released by the House Judiciary Committee, which had asked Mueller to hand them over when he testified in late July. The committee chairman, Rep. John Conyers, D-Michigan, said the notes prove the White House tried to strong-arm the ailing Ashcroft.

"Particularly disconcerting is the new revelation that the White House sought Mr. Ashcroft's authorization for the surveillance program, yet refused to let him seek the advice he needed on the program," Conyers said in a statement.

The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which oversees the Justice Department, said Thursday he wants an internal investigation into whether Gonzales lied to or deliberately misled Congress about the 2004 dispute and its cause.

Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, also asked the Justice Department's inspector general, Glenn A. Fine, to examine whether Gonzales gave inaccurate sworn testimony about the firings of nine U.S. attorneys last year.

"Consistent with your jurisdiction, please do not limit your inquiry to whether or not the attorney general has committed any criminal violations," Leahy wrote Fine. "Rather, I ask that you look into whether the attorney general, in the course of his testimony, engaged in any misconduct, engaged in conduct inappropriate for a Cabinet officer and the nation's chief law enforcement officer, or violated any duty."

Fine's spokesman, Bill Blier, said he was aware of Leahy's letter, but he declined further comment. A Justice Department spokesman did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Mueller's notes detail parts of 10 days worth of high-level meetings with senior White House and department officials about the counterterrorism program.

One meeting, on March 12, 2004, was with Bush. At least three included Vice President Dick Cheney. Details of the discussion with Bush, in a room off the Oval Office, were entirely blacked out in the notes released Thursday.

Additionally, they show several phone calls between Mueller and Gonzales, including one call to Mueller at home.

On the night of the March 10 confrontation, the notes show, Mueller rushed to the hospital from a dinner with his wife and daughter. The director arrived several minutes after Card and Gonzales left.

At that point, Comey asked Mueller to tell the FBI agents detailed to protect Ashcroft "that no visitors, other than family, were to be allowed to see the AG without my consent."

"I so informed the detail," Mueller wrote.

Comey told senators this year that he and Mueller threatened to quit if the White House overruled the Justice Department. Mueller has said he does not dispute Comey's account of the situation.

As it happened, the White House did move ahead with the program for several weeks without the department's approval.

Neither Comey nor Mueller resigned, however, because of the bombings in Spain the day after the hospital confrontation. Changes soon after to the program satisfied the department.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/17/gonzales.ashcroft.ap/index.html

© 2007 Cable News Network.

Gunny
08-18-2007, 11:33 AM
Sounds like another contrived, BS conspiracy theory to me.

JohnDoe
08-18-2007, 06:54 PM
Sounds like another contrived, BS conspiracy theory to me.
Figures!

So, how do you come to this well informed decision of yours?:poke:

5stringJeff
08-19-2007, 08:44 AM
I think Senator Leahy is a complete POS on a witch hunt. However, if it does come about that Gonzales committed perjury, I would call for his removal from office, just as I did for Clinton back in '98.

Gunny
08-19-2007, 09:53 PM
Figures!

So, how do you come to this well informed decision of yours?:poke:

Pretty obvious. A partisan fishing expedition is just that. Just more of the same trumped up BS we've been hearing for years.

How hard is THAT?

dsslive
08-21-2007, 08:14 AM
It's quite obvious to me you haven't tuned into much of the hearings coverage
with AG Gonzales squirming in his seat like a a worm (Bush patsie that he is!) in a hot bath while simply refusing to answer questions from Senators from both sides of the aisle to the point they literally shake their heads in disbelief. This AG is just as corrupt, secretive, and personally driven as the President and the rest of the Bush mafia.

I just hope this country makes it thru the next 500 or so days until Bush is forced out of office by constitutional mandate!

dsslive
08-21-2007, 08:21 AM
Thanks for some common sense...I joined this site recently and have found precious little opinion that remotely resembles any reality of which I'm aware.

It completely dumbfounds me that people will still profess support for a politician that has lied to them so often that it is the norm rather than the exception! I feel entirely and sadly comfortable saying George W. Bush's historical legacy will comprise of evaluations concerning his relative position amongst the worst of presidents this country has ever had the misfortune to endure!

truthmatters
08-21-2007, 09:28 AM
Dont you know when a Republican lies about illegal wiretapping of American citizens which runs right up against the contitution and then over it Everything is just fine and the Democrats are just being partisan.

Now give me a democratic president who lies about where his penis has been and we Have a major crime wave to be snipped in the bud.

There are certain Americans who care nothing for this country ,the constitution and democracy but man you insult their grand PooBaa of the momment and they will spare no effort to talk bullshit and defame Just dont ask them to really fight or anything because only fools go to war and acttually do the fighting in their minds.

A yellow magnet, the ability to swallow lies and no sense of equitable treatment is all they need.

Gunny
08-21-2007, 09:38 AM
*yawn*:lame2:

truthmatters
08-21-2007, 10:01 AM
Gonzales lied under oath.

Its a fact!

You see when you tell two different stories under oath and then you tell more to try and smooth it over that is definately perjury.

Now when the right go so insensed that Clinton lied about where his pecker had been that they felt our national security was at risk so the impeached Clinton the bid failed because it was an obvious bit of utter bullshit.

Yet when the top Attorney of the United States lies to the people about spying on the people you pretty much have a full blown crisis (no pun intended).

Anyone who sees the first as a major crime and then calls the second political hackery has no concern for the constitution.


I have to tell you I am dismayed at the amount of people who just can not wrap their honor arround these facts.

America is in big trouble.

Gunny
08-21-2007, 01:55 PM
Gonzales lied under oath.

Its a fact!

You see when you tell two different stories under oath and then you tell more to try and smooth it over that is definately perjury.

Now when the right go so insensed that Clinton lied about where his pecker had been that they felt our national security was at risk so the impeached Clinton the bid failed because it was an obvious bit of utter bullshit.

Yet when the top Attorney of the United States lies to the people about spying on the people you pretty much have a full blown crisis (no pun intended).

Anyone who sees the first as a major crime and then calls the second political hackery has no concern for the constitution.


I have to tell you I am dismayed at the amount of people who just can not wrap their honor arround these facts.

America is in big trouble.

:lol:

"Help! The sky is falling ... the sky is falling ...":tinfoil:

truthmatters
08-21-2007, 02:33 PM
and the sad part is you dont care

Gunny
08-21-2007, 07:25 PM
and the sad part is you dont care

The sad part is you actually believe this crap.

glockmail
08-21-2007, 07:32 PM
Gonzales lied under oath.

Its a fact!

You see when you tell two different stories under oath and then you tell more to try and smooth it over that is definately perjury....... Great. They're planning to "pull a Libby" on ol' Gonzo. Those fucking racists.

dsslive
08-22-2007, 07:33 AM
you right wingers are just so eloquent in your responses...so happy we could chat!

dsslive
08-22-2007, 07:34 AM
I've heard more intelligence from my 5 year old nephew!!

JohnDoe
08-24-2007, 07:29 AM
Great. They're planning to "pull a Libby" on ol' Gonzo. Those fucking racists.


Glock,

It appears, through watching the hearings, that A Gonzalez LIED UNDER OATH...... Democrats did not MAKE gonzales LIE under oath. Gonzales CHOSE TO LIE under Oath.

Please don't tell me that you think that this relies on the definition of what IS, IS?

I am personally getting a little sick of the LAWLESSNESS in this administration, and allowing it to go unpunished will only hurt us in the long run.....all Presidents and their staff in the future will be given the "Right of Way" to lie and cheat and be lawless leaders....if we continue to ignore the Law and not abide by the Law.


jd

Joe Steel
08-24-2007, 08:44 AM
I think Senator Leahy is a complete POS on a witch hunt. However, if it does come about that Gonzales committed perjury, I would call for his removal from office, just as I did for Clinton back in '98.

If!?!?

Are you on crack?

truthmatters
08-24-2007, 09:02 AM
Note not a crumb of logic , not a scrap of evidence, not any utterance of how the words Gonzales spoke and are in the record do not constitute differing stories on the same point, There is no thought involved i their defennce at all only insults and blind loyalty.


I just dont see wht they think they are gaining with thier stupidity?

Joe Steel
08-24-2007, 09:22 AM
Note not a crumb of logic , not a scrap of evidence, not any utterance of how the words Gonzales spoke and are in the record do not constitute differing stories on the same point, There is no thought involved i their defennce at all only insults and blind loyalty.

I just dont see wht they think they are gaining with thier stupidity?

If I were to say the sun rose in the east at dawn, you'd demand a citation. That's a typical, desperate and quite tiresome wingnut tactic for diverting attention from, and trying to deny, the obvious. Anyone who paid the slightest bit of attention to Gonzalez's contortions for avoiding admitting he lied knows he did. And he did it under oath so that's perjury.

truthmatters
08-24-2007, 09:30 AM
Steel ,my comment was about the right on here offering nothing to prove why Gonzo's words are not perjury.

They just say its not as if it proves its not.

He gave differing answer to the same question and then dung himself deeper trying to defend the statements , he was very obviously lying.

These people then just say its all a witch hunt and offer no reasoning for how they can say something so stupid.

glockmail
08-24-2007, 09:39 AM
Glock,

It appears, through watching the hearings, that A Gonzalez LIED UNDER OATH...... Democrats did not MAKE gonzales LIE under oath. Gonzales CHOSE TO LIE under Oath.

Please don't tell me that you think that this relies on the definition of what IS, IS?

I am personally getting a little sick of the LAWLESSNESS in this administration, and allowing it to go unpunished will only hurt us in the long run.....all Presidents and their staff in the future will be given the "Right of Way" to lie and cheat and be lawless leaders....if we continue to ignore the Law and not abide by the Law.


jd I'm not that familair with the case, truthfully. But from the little that I've heard it appears that they are trying to pull another "Libby". Its become the Democrat game-plan.

5stringJeff
08-24-2007, 10:11 AM
If!?!?

Are you on crack?

Perhaps you could show me where he has been found guilty of perjury???

JohnDoe
08-24-2007, 10:23 AM
I'm not that familair with the case, truthfully. But from the little that I've heard it appears that they are trying to pull another "Libby". Its become the Democrat game-plan.


As devisive as the political arena has become over the last decade or so, I can surely understand these aprehensive feelings of yours regarding this issue.

However, IF you did know more about it....meaning..... you reviewed each one of these hearings with Gonzalez sworn testimony yourself, it would be clearer than the light of day, that he lied under oath....at least this is what is evident to me, even trying to set my own personal politics aside, it appears that he downright perjured himself.... and he is suppose to be the HEAD law enforcement person in our country?

I don't think there should be TWO SETS of Law enforcement rules out there, one for the elite leaders of our country, and one for us....it just can't be something good in the long run and it needs to be nipped in the bud NOW, imho, before the next guy is even worse, while another eye pretending to be blind to the law sits back and watches!

I think we are setting ourselves up for disaster and failure as a Country if we allow our partisan leaders divide us so much that the Law and abidance in it, does not matter anymore for anyone that is on our own political side....Can't you see the danger in this...? And I am not limiting this harmful phenomenon to one party!

jd

truthmatters
08-24-2007, 10:31 AM
http://tinyurl.com/3b8c3l


Here is Gonzo's problem Documents prove what he said on the stand is not true.

truthmatters
08-24-2007, 10:34 AM
WASHINGTON (AP) — Documents indicate eight congressional leaders were briefed about the Bush administration's terrorist surveillance program on the eve of its expiration in 2004, contradicting sworn Senate testimony this week by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

http://tinyurl.com/3b8c3l


If this was a democrat what would you be saying?

glockmail
08-24-2007, 11:58 AM
As devisive as the political arena has become over the last decade or so, I can surely understand these aprehensive feelings of yours regarding this issue.

However, IF you did know more about it....meaning..... you reviewed each one of these hearings with Gonzalez sworn testimony yourself, it would be clearer than the light of day, that he lied under oath....at least this is what is evident to me, even trying to set my own personal politics aside, it appears that he downright perjured himself.... and he is suppose to be the HEAD law enforcement person in our country?

I don't think there should be TWO SETS of Law enforcement rules out there, one for the elite leaders of our country, and one for us....it just can't be something good in the long run and it needs to be nipped in the bud NOW, imho, before the next guy is even worse, while another eye pretending to be blind to the law sits back and watches!

I think we are setting ourselves up for disaster and failure as a Country if we allow our partisan leaders divide us so much that the Law and abidance in it, does not matter anymore for anyone that is on our own political side....Can't you see the danger in this...? And I am not limiting this harmful phenomenon to one party!

jd

Unless there is some evidence to sugest otherwise, I'll assume Gonzo's innocent of this accusation. All you or TM have to do is provide a little summation of your case with a link and I'd bother to review. But so far I've haven't seen anything worth spending effort on.