Taser incidents renew debate over usage

[LiberalNation]

I think tasers are okay and a helpful tool but that doesn't mean asshole cops wont abuse it. Shocking people who aren't fighting is stupid, shocking a guy holding an infant also stupid. That gaurd could have easily killed the baby if it had fallen the wrong way.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070823/ap_on_re_us/taser_troubles;_ylt=AtaG3Loc2gok_wB0iS.70N9vzwcF

BRATTLEBORO, Vt. - Chained to a 55-gallon drum to protest the proposed development of a vacant lot, Jonathan Crowell wasn't threatening anyone. But he refused police orders to unshackle himself and leave, so they zapped him with a Taser, then charged him with trespassing.

"It wasn't just a short burst," said Crowell, 32, of Dummerston, recalling the July 24 incident. "Five seconds is a long time to be electrocuted. My whole body was contorting and flapping around. You can't think of anything else but that pain. It's really scary. I felt like I was being tortured."

Increasingly, police facing stubborn lawbreakers, belligerent drunks or violent suspects are reaching for stun guns to shock them into submission. In one recent incident, a hospital security guard in Houston used a Taser on a defiant father trying to take his newborn home, sending father and daughter to the floor.

Police say Tasers are valuable tools for avoiding hand-to-hand struggles that can injure officers and citizens. Small, portable and often effective even when merely brandished, Tasers — which fire tiny, tethered cartridges that transmit electrical currents — have become common in law enforcement in recent years, with some 11,500 police agencies using them.

But critics say Tasers are being used as a weapon of first resort, sometimes on frail or mentally ill people.

"What's at issue is whether the level of force being used is appropriate for arresting somebody," said Allen Gilbert, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Vermont. "The Fourth Amendment protects you from unreasonable seizures, which means police can't use excessive force when they're taking you into custody."

Supporters of Tasers say they reduce workers' compensation and lost time claims by police by preventing physical confrontations.

"We went over an entire year without a single lost hour of employee time or officer injury relating to wrestling or struggling to get a prisoner into custody, which is virtually unheard of," said Deputy Chief Walt Decker of the Burlington, Vt., Police Department.

His department, which got Tasers last year, spent more than $150,000 on lost time the year before for officers sidelined by on-the-job injuries suffered subduing suspects, he said.

To many, the issue isn't whether Tasers should be used, it's how.

In the Houston incident, which occurred April 13, William Lewis, 30, was trying to take his newborn home from Woman's Hospital of Texas because he and his wife felt mistreated by staff.

He was told not to take the baby, and was trying to leave when David Boling, an off-duty police officer working security, shot Lewis with the stun gun as he held the child.

"It's very easy to blame police officers for the inappropriate use of a Taser, but we need to take another step back and look at how it's been introduced to them," said Dalia Hashad, a human rights violations specialist with Amnesty International.

"They're under the impression that it's a bit of a magic tool, that you'll shoot someone with 50,000 volts and they'll be rendered incapable and no harm will be done."

Amnesty International USA has counted 250 cases in the last six years in which people died after being stunned with a Taser, but doesn't track whether the shock caused the deaths, according to Hashad. According to the manufacturer, Taser International Inc., the devices have been listed as a contributing factor in about 12 deaths.

Hashad says police should exercise more restraint in using Tasers on the mentally ill, and those with medical conditions who can die from the shock.

"Whether it's coincidence or circumstance, we have several incidents of use of a Taser gun involving a person with a serious mental problem or presumed serious mental health problem," said Ken Libertoff, executive director of the Vermont Association for Mental Health. "The use of a Taser intervention is not a minor situation, and it is not state-of-the-art mental health care."

Police counter that they can't always tell whether a person has mental health issues or pre-existing medical conditions that would make Taser use dangerous to them.

Two recent Taser incidents in Vermont involved psychiatric patients.

On July 3, police used a Taser to subdue an unruly juvenile patient at Brattleboro Retreat, a psychiatric facility.

Neither the hospital nor police would give more detail about the incident, which prompted Gov. Jim Douglas to ask the state attorney general to review the police's actions and later to ask for a review of police agencies' protocol for Taser use, with an eye toward setting a statewide policy.

In the second case, a Taser was used to subdue a psychiatric patient from Vermont State Hospital who was spotted jumping in front of cars on Interstate 89.

"It probably saved his life," said Sgt. Craig Gardner, a Vermont State Police trooper who was there.

The use of the Taser also prevented the patient from fighting officers or pulling anyone else into traffic, Gardner said.

[diuretic]

I think tasers are okay and a helpful tool but that doesn't mean asshole cops wont abuse it.

The Houston hospital incident didn't involve cops.

"Asshole cops" who use unreasonable force are dealt with by their employer and by the law. There's not much more to be said other than, if you get tasered you probably deserve it. If you don't then sue.

[Nukeman]

The Houston hospital incident didn't involve cops.

"Asshole cops" who use unreasonable force are dealt with by their employer and by the law. There's not much more to be said other than, if you get tasered you probably deserve it. If you don't then sue.
Actually it was an "off duty" police officer. If I'm not mistaken in most states you are unable to purchase a tazer without a proper permit and that usually means being a Police Officer....

General security guards cant get these thngs for the most part. Some who have Right to Cary permit can but the general public and routine security guard at a local hospital wont be able to get one..

[gabosaurus]

I really fail to understand the frequent criticism of tasers.
Tasers were developed as an alternative to police use of deadly force. Too many groups felt law enforcement were too quick to pull the trigger. They wanted a way where perps would be immobilized instead of shot.
Now the same people are coming down on tasers. What the fuck do they want?
To hell with their bleeding hearts. Here is the deal:
Resist arrest, you get tasered
Run from police, get tasered
Unnecessary movement, get tasered

The "mentally ill" dodge pisses me off as well. Like the story where the guy was in his yard threatening people and swinging a machete. Are the police supposed to approach and say "Pardon me sir, are you mentally ill? We won't taser you you if you are."
Fuck that.

[dan]

"It wasn't just a short burst," said Crowell, 32, of Dummerston, recalling the July 24 incident. "Five seconds is a long time to be electrocuted. My whole body was contorting and flapping around. You can't think of anything else but that pain. It's really scary. I felt like I was being tortured."

Yeah, that's the point, retard. Maybe we can develop a weapon that gives criminals an encouraging pat on the back instead.

[nevadamedic]

I think tasers are okay and a helpful tool but that doesn't mean asshole cops wont abuse it. Shocking people who aren't fighting is stupid, shocking a guy holding an infant also stupid. That gaurd could have easily killed the baby if it had fallen the wrong way.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070823/ap_on_re_us/taser_troubles;_ylt=AtaG3Loc2gok_wB0iS.70N9vzwcF

BRATTLEBORO, Vt. - Chained to a 55-gallon drum to protest the proposed development of a vacant lot, Jonathan Crowell wasn't threatening anyone. But he refused police orders to unshackle himself and leave, so they zapped him with a Taser, then charged him with trespassing.

"It wasn't just a short burst," said Crowell, 32, of Dummerston, recalling the July 24 incident. "Five seconds is a long time to be electrocuted. My whole body was contorting and flapping around. You can't think of anything else but that pain. It's really scary. I felt like I was being tortured."

Increasingly, police facing stubborn lawbreakers, belligerent drunks or violent suspects are reaching for stun guns to shock them into submission. In one recent incident, a hospital security guard in Houston used a Taser on a defiant father trying to take his newborn home, sending father and daughter to the floor.

Police say Tasers are valuable tools for avoiding hand-to-hand struggles that can injure officers and citizens. Small, portable and often effective even when merely brandished, Tasers — which fire tiny, tethered cartridges that transmit electrical currents — have become common in law enforcement in recent years, with some 11,500 police agencies using them.

But critics say Tasers are being used as a weapon of first resort, sometimes on frail or mentally ill people.

"What's at issue is whether the level of force being used is appropriate for arresting somebody," said Allen Gilbert, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Vermont. "The Fourth Amendment protects you from unreasonable seizures, which means police can't use excessive force when they're taking you into custody."

Supporters of Tasers say they reduce workers' compensation and lost time claims by police by preventing physical confrontations.

"We went over an entire year without a single lost hour of employee time or officer injury relating to wrestling or struggling to get a prisoner into custody, which is virtually unheard of," said Deputy Chief Walt Decker of the Burlington, Vt., Police Department.

His department, which got Tasers last year, spent more than $150,000 on lost time the year before for officers sidelined by on-the-job injuries suffered subduing suspects, he said.

To many, the issue isn't whether Tasers should be used, it's how.

In the Houston incident, which occurred April 13, William Lewis, 30, was trying to take his newborn home from Woman's Hospital of Texas because he and his wife felt mistreated by staff.

He was told not to take the baby, and was trying to leave when David Boling, an off-duty police officer working security, shot Lewis with the stun gun as he held the child.

"It's very easy to blame police officers for the inappropriate use of a Taser, but we need to take another step back and look at how it's been introduced to them," said Dalia Hashad, a human rights violations specialist with Amnesty International.

"They're under the impression that it's a bit of a magic tool, that you'll shoot someone with 50,000 volts and they'll be rendered incapable and no harm will be done."

Amnesty International USA has counted 250 cases in the last six years in which people died after being stunned with a Taser, but doesn't track whether the shock caused the deaths, according to Hashad. According to the manufacturer, Taser International Inc., the devices have been listed as a contributing factor in about 12 deaths.

Hashad says police should exercise more restraint in using Tasers on the mentally ill, and those with medical conditions who can die from the shock.

"Whether it's coincidence or circumstance, we have several incidents of use of a Taser gun involving a person with a serious mental problem or presumed serious mental health problem," said Ken Libertoff, executive director of the Vermont Association for Mental Health. "The use of a Taser intervention is not a minor situation, and it is not state-of-the-art mental health care."

Police counter that they can't always tell whether a person has mental health issues or pre-existing medical conditions that would make Taser use dangerous to them.

Two recent Taser incidents in Vermont involved psychiatric patients.

On July 3, police used a Taser to subdue an unruly juvenile patient at Brattleboro Retreat, a psychiatric facility.

Neither the hospital nor police would give more detail about the incident, which prompted Gov. Jim Douglas to ask the state attorney general to review the police's actions and later to ask for a review of police agencies' protocol for Taser use, with an eye toward setting a statewide policy.

In the second case, a Taser was used to subdue a psychiatric patient from Vermont State Hospital who was spotted jumping in front of cars on Interstate 89.

"It probably saved his life," said Sgt. Craig Gardner, a Vermont State Police trooper who was there.

The use of the Taser also prevented the patient from fighting officers or pulling anyone else into traffic, Gardner said.

To be able to carry a Taser in Nevada the cop or corrections officer has to be hit with it so they respect it and the effects. I've been hit through contact before and it sucks.

It was during Street Vibrations(all those asshole biker tough guys) When I worked at the night club I was breaking up a fight with several people. All the bouncers were involved, I put one guy on the ground, by then it was still chaos when the police finally showed up and we were having a problem controling the situation. Every bouncer had someone they were trying to take down. They immediatly drew their Tasers and opened up on the people. I wasn't paying attention as I was in the zone still wrestling with the guy I was trying to restrain when he got hit and it passed right through to me. Granted It wasn't as bad as he got but it still sucked.

[Pale Rider]

It was during Street Vibrations(all those asshole biker tough guys) When I worked at the night club I was breaking up a fight with several people. .

What's that?

[5stringJeff]

I really fail to understand the frequent criticism of tasers.
Tasers were developed as an alternative to police use of deadly force. Too many groups felt law enforcement were too quick to pull the trigger. They wanted a way where perps would be immobilized instead of shot.
Now the same people are coming down on tasers. What the fuck do they want?
To hell with their bleeding hearts. Here is the deal:
Resist arrest, you get tasered
Run from police, get tasered
Unnecessary movement, get tasered

The "mentally ill" dodge pisses me off as well. Like the story where the guy was in his yard threatening people and swinging a machete. Are the police supposed to approach and say "Pardon me sir, are you mentally ill? We won't taser you you if you are."
Fuck that.

Holy crap, I agree with you. Is this Gabby's husband typing under Gabby's name?

[nevadamedic]

I really fail to understand the frequent criticism of tasers.
Tasers were developed as an alternative to police use of deadly force. Too many groups felt law enforcement were too quick to pull the trigger. They wanted a way where perps would be immobilized instead of shot.
Now the same people are coming down on tasers. What the fuck do they want?
To hell with their bleeding hearts. Here is the deal:
Resist arrest, you get tasered
Run from police, get tasered
Unnecessary movement, get tasered

The "mentally ill" dodge pisses me off as well. Like the story where the guy was in his yard threatening people and swinging a machete. Are the police supposed to approach and say "Pardon me sir, are you mentally ill? We won't taser you you if you are."
Fuck that.

Holy shit, I agree with you, I was wrong you are on your medication again, I am proud of you. :laugh2:

A taser is definatly a good invention. I think the criminal would rather get shot in their opinion. Cops can use that even when deadly force is warranted.

Although Taser's arn't always effective though. If someone is to drunk or on something like PCP nothing works. I've seen someone hit with multiple Tasers and keep going one cop actually had to draw his side arm because the guy kept going and I thought he still wasn't going to stop. It was the only time at the club I was actually scared and ill admit it. This guy was over 3#'s of solid muscle, he was hyped on PCP or something simular and he was throwing bouncers like t-shirts, I have never seen that at any of the places ive worked before. I was standing next to the cops when they came in, and I was seriously afraid they guy was going to be shot that's how close it came.

[nevadamedic]

What's that?

The Bikers who go out to the bars and strip clubs for nothing else then to fight people. It's bullshit really. I am not saying all Bikers are like that at all but you have to admit there are some that do and they give a bad name to the rest and make it to where people stereotype them all as trouble.

You probably know the club I worked at. It used to be Reno Live, then was Metropolis and then the Pacific Beach Club. It was kiddie corner to West Second Street Bar on Second and Sierra. It was the roughest nightclub in Northern Nevada. The night I quit was when they had the shooting at Street Vibrations.

[diuretic]

Actually it was an "off duty" police officer. If I'm not mistaken in most states you are unable to purchase a tazer without a proper permit and that usually means being a Police Officer....

General security guards cant get these thngs for the most part. Some who have Right to Cary permit can but the general public and routine security guard at a local hospital wont be able to get one..

I stand corrected. I wonder if HPD will have to wear any liability?

[gabosaurus]

Those who believe all bikers are Hell's Angels street thugs need to take their heads out of the 60's. I've seen a lot more biker groups doing charity work than causing trouble.

There was an incident in San Francisco last year where a guy died after being tasered more than a dozen times. There was immense criticism of the police and their claim that the guy was still resisting at the end. Then they did an autopsy and found out that the dude had a huge amount of narcotics in his system.
I am very pro-law enforcement. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

[stephanie]

Holy Crap..I agreed with Gabs first post, also...

Gotta go see if it's a full moon out....I'll be right back..:laugh2:

Good post Gabs...:cheers2:

[nevadamedic]

Those who believe all bikers are Hell's Angels street thugs need to take their heads out of the 60's. I've seen a lot more biker groups doing charity work than causing trouble.

There was an incident in San Francisco last year where a guy died after being tasered more than a dozen times. There was immense criticism of the police and their claim that the guy was still resisting at the end. Then they did an autopsy and found out that the dude had a huge amount of narcotics in his system.
I am very pro-law enforcement. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

The only reason the Biker Gangs help charities(actually most of them are required to according to their leadership) is so they police and courts will lay off on them a little and go easier on them. I watched a couple documentaries on them.

You can't hit someone with a Taser more then three times or they tend to go into cardiac arrest.

[Hugh Lincoln]

I too am perplexed by gabs here. Next thing you know, she'll say, "You know, maybe Hugh Lincoln is right about race."

[waterrescuedude2000]

Well In the days before the taser there where people out there that would get violent and be shot by a real gun instead of shocked.. So if the cops job is trying to maintain peace would you rather they do it in a lethal or non lethal way???? Sometimes the only way is the lethal way if you cant stop them another way as a last resort to protect lives sometimes a cop has to take one.. But for the cases where someone is violent and they can control the individual with a shock instead of a bullet I am all for it. I have an air taser and think they are a wonderful tool. And actually there is a couple of security outfits here that do carry tasers one of them even carries everything the cops do tear gas, Batons,Taser,Guns the whole 9 yards and thier patrol cars have red and yellows and sirens which most security doesnt have they even sometimes back up reno police if they have no other units. They go through same training the cos do including EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operators Course)

[diuretic]

Gab is being perfectly reasonable. The more non-lethal options the better. However there are still extremists who decry even those. Taser use isn't common in Australia yet. Some forces are beginning to equip all operational members but many are still only issuing them to the tactical unit members. That's typical though, overly cautious. All operational cops should have a taser, end of story. All operational cops have sidearms but somehow they can't be given a taser????

Anyway, as I said, the more non-lethal options the better it is all around, for the arrestee, the cops, the general public.

[waterrescuedude2000]

Gab is being perfectly reasonable. The more non-lethal options the better. However there are still extremists who decry even those. Taser use isn't common in Australia yet. Some forces are beginning to equip all operational members but many are still only issuing them to the tactical unit members. That's typical though, overly cautious. All operational cops should have a taser, end of story. All operational cops have sidearms but somehow they can't be given a taser????

Anyway, as I said, the more non-lethal options the better it is all around, for the arrestee, the cops, the general public.

You are correct i mean all the cops i see in nevada has them...

[diuretic]

You are correct i mean all the cops i see in nevada has them...

We'll get around to it......slowly......police administrators here are easily spooked by pressure groups who sometimes just don't get it.