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jimnyc
01-28-2019, 04:53 PM
Well, not much they can do here as it's not against the law here. :) Unlike the other cases, here we are seeing both sides being allowed to express their views and rights. People can choose to do business there, and they are free to take their business elsewhere, and telling others about their experience should they wish to. As it should be.

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The Knot removes Texas listing after venue refuses to host gay wedding

Texas couple Aaron Lucero and Jeffrey Cannon had just begun their wedding venue search when they got an unpleasant surprise: The owners of their first choice, The Venue at Waterstone, emailed to say they shouldn’t bother visiting because a gay wedding would be against God’s “plan and design for marriage.”

While Texas law doesn’t prevent discrimination based on sexual orientation, this refusal of service was still “like a punch to the gut,” as Lucero told Out last week. The couple had made their list by searching popular wedding planning site The Knot, and the Venue at Waterstone did not indicate the owners’ LGBTQ ban in its listing. Lucero and Cannon, like other couples who have experienced similar rejections, say they’d like venues and wedding websites to do more to protect them.

“Our prayer is that God will one day open your hearts as well so that you will be able to welcome all of His children into your beautiful venue,” Cannon wrote in a reply to Waterstone owner Lyle Wise, which Lucero shared in a tweet. “It may not come until you have a loved one that is LGBT and is able to convince you that this is not a choice, as was the case with my family. Until that day comes however, we would petition you to please make your faith known to the public on your website and with theKnot.com so that other same sex couples do not have to go through the same rejection that we have gone through with you.”

https://i.imgur.com/e73Z9JL.png

Wise shared his side of the story with the local NBC affiliate via a statement further explaining why he won’t hold a gay wedding. “We are a family of believers. We love all people because Christ first loved us; Jeffrey and Aaron included. We cannot violate the convictions God has placed within us. In love, we would never affirm anyone in something that was to their detriment.”

As a result of Lucero and Cannon’s experience, The Knot removed the venue’s listing. Last year, after the Supreme Court issued its limited ruling in favor of the Masterpiece Cakeshop, Mike Steib, CEO of The Knot parent company the XO Group, took to social media to reiterate the company’s anti-discrimination policy, writing: “Our terms of service on The Knot prohibit vendors in our marketplace from discriminating against couples based on their race, religion, or sexual orientation. When we learn that a vendor has violated these terms of service, we will remove the vendor’s storefront and refund his or her money. We love our couples, and all of our couples deserve a marketplace free of unfair prejudice.”

Still, as Out reports, many people planning their wedding have complained that the site only takes down these vendors after people report being discriminated against. Lucero and others would like the site to take a more proactive approach, which would set an example for the rest of the wedding industry.

Rest - https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/knot-removes-texas-listing-venue-refuses-host-gay-wedding-172818511.html

Abbey Marie
01-28-2019, 07:17 PM
I guess it stinks when you are reminded that your unbiblical lifestyle doesn’t sit well with everyone.

:poke::dunno:

I am willing to believe some are born that way if it’s true, but they won’t allow the research to prove it.

High_Plains_Drifter
01-29-2019, 06:19 AM
Any homo, or anyone else for that matter, claiming God doesn't have a problem with homosexuals and other sorts of perverts is a bald faced liar. The Bible is full of references to the holy word of the Lord speaking against it, and it's in no uncertain terms, it's quite blunt. God considers homos an abomination, and we as a Christian society should NOT be ACCEPTING of this sexual perversion and mental illness. The CARING, Christian thing to do would be to encourage these people to SEEK HELP, and make HELP AVAILABLE. Otherwise, they're just giving in to the temptation of Satan, and/or accepting a mental illness that is a disgusting sexual perversion. But, that's one of the reasons leftist democrats hate Christianity. It stands in the way of their fondness for sexual perverts, but really leaves you wondering then, WHY do they support and VOTE FOR MUSLIMS? Their cults view of homos is even worse than CHRISTIANS.

I doubt any of them go to heaven.

darin
01-29-2019, 06:57 AM
#victimophiles

Russ
01-29-2019, 08:33 PM
Refreshing to see that the Christian store-owner's beliefs are given as much consideration as the gay customers' lifestyle. The Bible very clearly states that the lifestyle is sin, and forcing the store-owner to participate is essentially forcing them to commit sin. The courts would never do that to a Muslim store-owner.

darin
01-30-2019, 04:58 AM
i think theologically the owners of the store have no ground to stand-upon. I think there's no biblical instruction or guidance that dictates people avoid hosting parties for folks who are 'sinners'. If taken to the logical conclusion, would it mean the venue doesn't host parties for folks who lived together before marriage? What about gluttons? Further, would the owners not host their own event? I assume the owners have not yet learned to love others as much as they love themselves and that's okay - because it WILL happen, if you are to believe Christ when he said "You will love others". Not "shall". Not "Should". Not "You better". You 'will' love god will all your heart soul body and mind AND you WILL love others the way you love yourself.

Liberty-wise, I love seeing businesses get to decide with whom they enter into an agreement or transaction. Govt should have NO Place in deciding that - let the market decide.

Abbey Marie
01-30-2019, 05:19 PM
Refreshing to see that the Christian store-owner's beliefs are given as much consideration as the gay customers' lifestyle. The Bible very clearly states that the lifestyle is sin, and forcing the store-owner to participate is essentially forcing them to commit sin. The courts would never do that to a Muslim store-owner.

Yup. If a Christian doctor was forced to perform an abortion, would that be ok? Where would it stop, this idea that you must do things in support of behaviors that your beliefs say are wrong? Because in this increasingly anti-God country, your beliefs shouldn’t count? Because the loving thing to do is to help that woman have an abortion, even though you believe it’s sin? I say no.

We used to be a country that embraced freedom from things you in which do not believe. In fact, we were founded on our desire to live free of govt coercion.

Russ
01-30-2019, 07:39 PM
i think theologically the owners of the store have no ground to stand-upon. I think there's no biblical instruction or guidance that dictates people avoid hosting parties for folks who are 'sinners'. If taken to the logical conclusion, would it mean the venue doesn't host parties for folks who lived together before marriage? What about gluttons? Further, would the owners not host their own event? I assume the owners have not yet learned to love others as much as they love themselves and that's okay - because it WILL happen, if you are to believe Christ when he said "You will love others". Not "shall". Not "Should". Not "You better". You 'will' love god will all your heart soul body and mind AND you WILL love others the way you love yourself.

Liberty-wise, I love seeing businesses get to decide with whom they enter into an agreement or transaction. Govt should have NO Place in deciding that - let the market decide.

Totally disagree. Maybe the Bible doesn't have a specific verse saying "do not rent a wedding venue for a gay wedding", but it pretty clearly says that homosexuality is immorality. I completely sympathize with any Christian wedding venue that doesn't want to host a gay marriage, since that would be implicitly participating in and celebrating the immorality. You can argue that gluttons or extramarital affairs are the same things, but they are temporary activities that are not being celebrated by the venue. Not quite the same.

The biggest problem is when gay couples go after wedding venues (or cake bakers) with lawsuits, to force them to do it or to gouge them for damages. That really disgusts me. I think its easy to see that the lawsuits are aimed at inflicting harm on Christians much more than they are aimed at righting any wrongs.

darin
01-31-2019, 07:02 AM
Totally disagree. Maybe the Bible doesn't have a specific verse saying "do not rent a wedding venue for a gay wedding", but it pretty clearly says that homosexuality is immorality. I completely sympathize with any Christian wedding venue that doesn't want to host a gay marriage, since that would be implicitly participating in and celebrating the immorality. You can argue that gluttons or extramarital affairs are the same things, but they are temporary activities that are not being celebrated by the venue. Not quite the same.


The biblical ground to stand on is not in relation of homosexuality and sin, it's about there's really no good reason to be hurtful to people. If my gay friend was happy for their marriage, my being happy for them too would be inline with Christian teachings to love and to empathize and sympathize when people are hurt, happy, and otherwise. Further, unless the venue is rejecting EVERY immoral or sinful union they may not be living their convictions in the first place. Gluttony is a state of being like 'gay' or 'liar'. Glutton IS celebrated - ever seen the baptists swarm a Golden Corral? :)

Does simply being present at a gay wedding implicate us in a celebration of sin? Is there ANY biblical or other guidance telling us NOT to associate, party-with, or celebrate people is sinful until they agree with our theology? We are called to be within AND apart of the world - yet we are pretty explicitly taught to NOT judge 'The world' on the standards of Christians. I would submit Romans 14:15
15-16 If you confuse others by making a big issue over what they eat or don’t eat, you’re no longer a companion with them in love, are you? These, remember, are persons for whom Christ died.

Being a companion in love for people, with people, is more important than their sins. Christians have FREEDOM in christ to host gay weddings. Christians shy away from that freedom if they are worried about what other Christians may think.

If God doesn't grade sin - we'd have to agree God considers sin to be sin - then being rude, discourteous or hurtful to others is inconsistent with Christ's command to Love others the same way - with the same passion and commitment as we love ourselves. Nowhere is a requirement that 'others' must change before they are extended love.

Further again, was Christ's attendance at, essentially, parties was well-documented. With apologies to Mark:



The Gay Wedding

13-14 Then Jesus went again to walk alongside the lake. Again a crowd came to him, and he taught them. Strolling along, he saw Levi, son of Alphaeus, at his work being gay. Jesus said, “Come along with me.” He came.

15-16 Later Jesus and his disciples were at home having dinner party with a collection of disreputable guests. Unlikely as it seems, more than a few of them had become followers. The religion scholars and Pharisees saw him keeping this kind of company and lit into his disciples: “What kind of example is this, acting cozy with the gays?”

17 Jesus, overhearing, shot back, “Who needs a doctor: the healthy or the sick? I’m here inviting the sin-sick, not the spiritually-fit.”

Would people say Christ's presence was tantamount to validating their sin? I really struggle to find where christ ever cared more about sin than about the human doing the sin. Back in that time eating with someone - communing with them - was validation of the people. It was showing bond and love and relationship. It was a BIG deal, socially, for christ to take those steps because EVERYONE knew based on their thousand-year-old Religion that eating with the 'unclean' was "omgwtf SIN!!". Christ essentially flipped them the bird - out of love, of course. :)



The biggest problem is when gay couples go after wedding venues (or cake bakers) with lawsuits, to force them to do it or to gouge them for damages. That really disgusts me. I think its easy to see that the lawsuits are aimed at inflicting harm on Christians much more than they are aimed at righting any wrongs.

Spot-on assessment. It's horrible. And cruel. And should be criminal.

FakeNewsSux
01-31-2019, 03:30 PM
The biblical ground to stand on is not in relation of homosexuality and sin, it's about there's really no good reason to be hurtful to people. If my gay friend was happy for their marriage, my being happy for them too would be inline with Christian teachings to love and to empathize and sympathize when people are hurt, happy, and otherwise. Further, unless the venue is rejecting EVERY immoral or sinful union they may not be living their convictions in the first place. Gluttony is a state of being like 'gay' or 'liar'. Glutton IS celebrated - ever seen the baptists swarm a Golden Corral? :)

Does simply being present at a gay wedding implicate us in a celebration of sin? Is there ANY biblical or other guidance telling us NOT to associate, party-with, or celebrate people is sinful until they agree with our theology? We are called to be within AND apart of the world - yet we are pretty explicitly taught to NOT judge 'The world' on the standards of Christians. I would submit Romans 14:15

Being a companion in love for people, with people, is more important than their sins. Christians have FREEDOM in christ to host gay weddings. Christians shy away from that freedom if they are worried about what other Christians may think.

If God doesn't grade sin - we'd have to agree God considers sin to be sin - then being rude, discourteous or hurtful to others is inconsistent with Christ's command to Love others the same way - with the same passion and commitment as we love ourselves. Nowhere is a requirement that 'others' must change before they are extended love.

Further again, was Christ's attendance at, essentially, parties was well-documented. With apologies to Mark:



Would people say Christ's presence was tantamount to validating their sin? I really struggle to find where christ ever cared more about sin than about the human doing the sin. Back in that time eating with someone - communing with them - was validation of the people. It was showing bond and love and relationship. It was a BIG deal, socially, for christ to take those steps because EVERYONE knew based on their thousand-year-old Religion that eating with the 'unclean' was "omgwtf SIN!!". Christ essentially flipped them the bird - out of love, of course. :)


Spot-on assessment. It's horrible. And cruel. And should be criminal.

Yes, I agree that Christ cared more about the sinner than the sin and actively sought out those trapped in a sinful life to draw them out of it. When He came upon Levi, did He choose to stay and wallow in Levi's sinful ways to show His solidarity with Levi? No, He asked Levi to foresake his sinful ways and follow Him. And yes, he did gather and eat with a party of sinners but was he acting as the party MC, handing out jello shots, or was He there to set an alternative example to all that were receptive to it?

I believe that the response from the folks at the event hall in Texas indicated that they hated the sin but loved the sinner. Like all good Christians, they simply felt that foresaking their beliefs and enabling sinful behavior was not the best way to draw these folks toward a more God fearing lifestyle.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
01-31-2019, 05:10 PM
My response to this ongoing attempt to force perverted, sinful behavior to be accepted, condoned, aided and /or embraced is this very, very famous and absolutely true quote.. One in which I adamantly believe to be dead on the mark and divinely in line with true Christian values......
Aiding in such activity is even worse than the-- "doing nothing about it "-of which Edmund Burke spoke.
Truth and logic are very, very, very hard opponents to overcome methinks.. -Tyr

" The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
by Edmund Burke

Bible quote on the subject of homosexuality--


2. Leviticus 18 & 20
Leviticus contains two well known statements about homosexual activity:

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:13)

“An abomination” is often used to describe idolatry, and some suggest these verses are not condemning homosexual behaviour in general, but only the cultic prostitution connected to pagan temples. It is also often claimed that the fact that these prohibitions appear in a book full of other laws which no Christians think they are expected to follow today suggests that they should not be taken as having abiding moral relevance. But to take the first objection, the language used is not that specific; it refers to lying with a man “as with a woman,” - that is, in very general terms. Secondly, the surrounding verses in each instance describe other forms of sexual sin (such as incest, adultery and bestiality), none of which is anything to do with pagan temples or idolatry, and which we would take as being applicable to Christians today. It is moral, rather than just pagan religious behaviour that’s in view. Furthermore, Leviticus 20:13 highlights both male parties equally, again suggesting general, consensual homosexual activity (as opposed to gay rape or a forced relationship).


" it is an abomination. "

Not exactly vague is it as a dire and serious warning is it .. -Tyr

darin
01-31-2019, 05:53 PM
I think people are more concerned with what others think than about absolutely loving people. Love is better than stress about 'omg condoning!!' because who gives a shit if we condone something - why is our view of-matter to others? Love gay folks and rejoice when they are happy and mourn with them when they have pain. "Good"Christians don't care about sin; they love people AS MUCH and in the same way they love themselves. Without demanding those people change. It's not biblical to 'love the sinner but hate the sin' in part because sin doesn't actually matter within God's timeline/time-frame/realm. That stuff is already done.

darin
02-01-2019, 05:07 AM
My response to this ongoing attempt to force perverted, sinful behavior to be accepted, condoned, aided and /or embraced is this very, very famous and absolutely true quote.. One in which I adamantly believe to be dead on the mark and divinely in line with true Christian values......
Aiding in such activity is even worse than the-- "doing nothing about it "-of which Edmund Burke spoke.
Truth and logic are very, very, very hard opponents to overcome methinks.. -Tyr

" The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
by Edmund Burke



What are the venue-owners doing to enable the triumph of evil? Are they good men? What is good? God doesn't care if we do things or live 'in line with true christian values' because sin is already defeated. Sin = the attitudes that separate our hearts and souls from God. Sins are things that hurt our hearts and hurt others.




Bible quote on the subject of homosexuality--




" it is an abomination. "

Not exactly vague is it as a dire and serious warning is it .. -Tyr



except we live under GRACE now. Except eternally our souls are fine. We are - in that time point of view - already cleansed in God's fire/love. Do you subscribe to the next 'command'?


19 “Don’t have sex with a woman during the time of her menstrual period when she is unclean.

If a married couple is having sex while she's on her period - Please note that is forbidden within the SAME breath as the command you spoke of about homosexuality - would a venue reject that couple's application to use the facility? Are both instructions to be followed with such passion? Do you think god REALLY cares if I have sex with my wife during her cycle? Do you think the creator of all the universe and space-time and what may exist outside space-time has such a vested interest in the sexual habits of his creation? Like who we have sex with personally offends Him?

If it's okay to have sex with my wife or one of my wives during their period because 'its really not that bad' then why are the other commands about sex in that passage worse?

For those who believe in the story of Creation as put-forth in Genesis, do you remember what happened?

God commanded things into existence. God said "Light!" and light happened. God said "Animals!" and the elements of creation yielded to his will and formed everything that breathes and lots of things that do not.

God said you SHALL love God with all your heart, mind and soul. And very close to this, you SHALL love your neighbor as yourself. God also said Every knee SHALL bow and every Tongue (shall) confess. Those are promises.

Look, to truly love others as you love myself "seems to demand that I tear the skin off my body and wrap it around another person so I feel I am that other person; and all the longings that I have for my own safety and health and success and happiness I now feel for that other person as though he were me. "

Tearing skin off my body and wrapping around another...sounds ghoulishly familiar...

https://media.tenor.com/images/7a710d7588cc7ce95f6288eba9989613/raw


The government, however, should steer wide and far away for dictating ANY private citizen MUST choose to do business with anyone they choose not-to. It's the businesses loss. That's fine. Their choice.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
02-01-2019, 10:01 AM
What are the venue-owners doing to enable the triumph of evil? Are they good men? What is good? God doesn't care if we do things or live 'in line with true christian values' because sin is already defeated. Sin = the attitudes that separate our hearts and souls from God. Sins are things that hurt our hearts and hurt others.





except we live under GRACE now. Except eternally our souls are fine. We are - in that time point of view - already cleansed in God's fire/love. Do you subscribe to the next 'command'?



If a married couple is having sex while she's on her period - Please note that is forbidden within the SAME breath as the command you spoke of about homosexuality - would a venue reject that couple's application to use the facility? Are both instructions to be followed with such passion? Do you think god REALLY cares if I have sex with my wife during her cycle? Do you think the creator of all the universe and space-time and what may exist outside space-time has such a vested interest in the sexual habits of his creation? Like who we have sex with personally offends Him?

If it's okay to have sex with my wife or one of my wives during their period because 'its really not that bad' then why are the other commands about sex in that passage worse?

For those who believe in the story of Creation as put-forth in Genesis, do you remember what happened?

God commanded things into existence. God said "Light!" and light happened. God said "Animals!" and the elements of creation yielded to his will and formed everything that breathes and lots of things that do not.

God said you SHALL love God with all your heart, mind and soul. And very close to this, you SHALL love your neighbor as yourself. God also said Every knee SHALL bow and every Tongue (shall) confess. Those are promises.

Look, to truly love others as you love myself "seems to demand that I tear the skin off my body and wrap it around another person so I feel I am that other person; and all the longings that I have for my own safety and health and success and happiness I now feel for that other person as though he were me. "

Tearing skin off my body and wrapping around another...sounds ghoulishly familiar...

https://media.tenor.com/images/7a710d7588cc7ce95f6288eba9989613/raw


The government, however, should steer wide and far away for dictating ANY private citizen MUST choose to do business with anyone they choose not-to. It's the businesses loss. That's fine. Their choice.

My friend, I see the logic in the argument you make--but------
I am just a simple kind of guy and when God's word says and warns that it is an abomination to- HIM..
I take notice and choose to err on the side of caution.
As far as them refusing to aid the gay couple in what their God, gave warning about and called an abomination, I think they too choose to err on the side of caution- and myself I think government has no damn right to try to force them against their Christian beliefs to do so.

Especially so since it would not eve dare to do that to a muslim!!!
And that more than justifies my personal thoughts on this lousy hypocritical government that we are cursed with in this day and age.. -Tyr

High_Plains_Drifter
02-01-2019, 10:40 AM
The question people seem to like to ask nowadays, and the comparison other's make, "what would Jesus do," is a very subjective question.

First and foremost, Jesus was GOD, Jesus IS GOD. WE are NOT. Jesus/God, has power we can't even wrap our heads around, so if he chooses to associate with homos in hopes to influence them to see the ways of their sins and change, well we can't even do that according to the modern day progressives. Wanting to change a homo is BAD. We shouldn't be thinking they should get HELP, medical or religious, they're just homo and that's all there is to it, it's their decision and you stay out of it.

Well if some person, a MAN, not a GOD, a Christian person, chooses to not condone such perverted behavior with any sort of hosting or participation because Jesus/God, says it's an abomination, then I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with that. If the homos can be homo and there's nothing wrong with that, even though the word of GOD tells us there IS, then what is so wrong with a Christian not wanting anything to do with homosexuals? Can the homos have their choice but no one else can? Is the pervert committing an abomination more important than the Christian wanting to honor the word of God? Who's making this decision? It's SATAN, that's who, influencing people's minds because THIS is his PLAYGROUND, right now, right here, EARTH... MANKIND.

There's NOTHING WRONG with wanting to stay away with something the Lord/Jesus/God, has told us is an abomination, and their BLOOD shall be upon, and they surely will be put to DEATH. Sounds pretty serious to me. We're not talking about someone that just lifted a pack of gun or a candy bar from the convenience store. We're talking about one of the worst sins ever mentioned in the Bible. Homosexuality is big time, not petty. If someone chooses to stay away from it, then that should be THEIR choice, their GIVEN choice, and their choice should carry the same amount of respect from others that condone, coddle and accept a sexual perversion as disgusting as homosexuality. Quite Frankly, the difference between people showing such faithful acceptance and even protecting homosexuality while POUNCING on and BASHING any and all Christian values and choices, to me, is just another example of the influence SATAN has on the people of the world today.

Abbey Marie
02-01-2019, 02:49 PM
Tom, there is a lot in your post that makes sense. Especially the point about how we are even more condemned by the left if we try to save anyone gay.

Frankly, I don’t have a problem with the idea of “Love the sinner; hate the sin”, even though it sounds trite and is rather difficult to actually do. Isn’t that a pretty Godly concept?

Can we at least avoid the money changers? By all accounts, Jesus seemed to really dislike them, and clearly would have refused them service.
;)

High_Plains_Drifter
02-01-2019, 03:26 PM
Tom, there is a lot in your post that makes sense. Especially the point about how we are even more condemned by the left if we try to save anyone gay.

Frankly, I don’t have a problem with the idea of “Love the sinner; hate the sin”, even though it sounds trite and is rather difficult to actually do. Isn’t that a pretty Godly concept?

Can we at least avoid the money changers? By all accounts, Jesus seemed to really dislike them, and clearly would have refused them service.
;)
I would say that if a person wants to abide by the Bible and what the Lord says about homosexuality, and that if they feel participating in any sort of event in their eyes is condoning such behavior, then people should respect their opinion, and not try and condemn them and shove their opposing beliefs down their throat. Kinda boils down to a matter of respecting another's opinion/beliefs besides what God's word is.

Isn't showing compassion for another's beliefs Godly? Or do we just bend to the pressure of society and it's obvious swirl down the toilet, for now and forever? What would Jesus/God think of his people just ignoring what the Bible says?

The Bible says, "go forth and sin no more," and surely Jesus died for our sins because none of us is perfect. But I challenge anyone to show me where the Bible says to just IGNORE what's written it because we don't have to worry about sin. What would the world be like if we all did that? I give you the democrat agenda, ruled by what certainly looks a lot like Satan's agenda, as in the latest from the Virginia democrats that want to MURDER babies AFTER they're BORN. What's next? Killing one year olds, two year olds, the elderly? I don't want to be a part of this debauchery and evil.

darin
02-01-2019, 05:36 PM
My friend, I see the logic in the argument you make--but------
I am just a simple kind of guy and when God's word says and warns that it is an abomination to- HIM..
I take notice and choose to err on the side of caution.
As far as them refusing to aid the gay couple in what their God, gave warning about and called an abomination, I think they too choose to err on the side of caution- and myself I think government has no damn right to try to force them against their Christian beliefs to do so.

Especially so since it would not eve dare to do that to a muslim!!!
And that more than justifies my personal thoughts on this lousy hypocritical government that we are cursed with in this day and age.. -Tyr

Their beliefs....that's where i struggle and its a struggle of consistency. Withholding service to people because you know the bible says one thing about their lifestyle and allowing service when the bible says the same thing about other "sins" flies in the face of what Love really means. At least to me.

I think christians have to really think about what it means to try and follow every instruction in the bible given to every specific group or person - and if that's a good thing. We cannot afford to be simple when it comes to questions of love nor do we have to even worry about error because we live under grace.

Grace stems from Love. And love is NOT fair. Grace is the enemy of Justice. I can promise you, probably, that if you owned a venue and a couple people asked to rent it and you humbly accepted their money and gave these 'sinners' the very best of your service to them God would be so f'ing PLEASED with you.

And that's another point - we cannot love god out of fear of being wrong. We can't love god simply because we fear punishment for doing something wrong - that isn't love at all.

High_Plains_Drifter
02-01-2019, 07:07 PM
Their beliefs....that's where i struggle and its a struggle of consistency. Withholding service to people because you know the bible says one thing about their lifestyle and allowing service when the bible says the same thing about other "sins" flies in the face of what Love really means. At least to me.

I think christians have to really think about what it means to try and follow every instruction in the bible given to every specific group or person - and if that's a good thing. We cannot afford to be simple when it comes to questions of love nor do we have to even worry about error because we live under grace.

Grace stems from Love. And love is NOT fair. Grace is the enemy of Justice. I can promise you, probably, that if you owned a venue and a couple people asked to rent it and you humbly accepted their money and gave these 'sinners' the very best of your service to them God would be so f'ing PLEASED with you.

And that's another point - we cannot love god out of fear of being wrong. We can't love god simply because we fear punishment for doing something wrong - that isn't love at all.
OK... Christians should be capitalized. Did you not capitalize that for a reason, or was it just a quick typing oversight? Yes, I know it's nitpicking... sorry.

We've discussed many things religious over the years, and many recently, and I do notice that you base many of your Christian opinions on "love" as the end all, be all excuse for many things. I don't think that love is the answer for a reason to ignore God's words. I guess that's where we have our difference in opinion, bro. There's also a thing called "tough love," and that's where you have to tell someone they're wrong. You actually have to disagree with them. I can't agree with the premise that we as Christians have to knuckle under and accept something that's obviously sinful just for love, because quite frankly, I don't love homosexuals. I think they need help. They are committing a grave sin that will surely send them to hell, and I also don't think Jesus Christ is going to smite me if I don't condone their sin or want to accept it.

I'm sure this topic can be discussed 'til the cows come home, and we're all entitled to our own opinions and interpretations of what we believe a Christian should do, so I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, because we don't know. We won't know until we die and hear from the man upstairs himself. But I will "cling to my Bible" and the words within, and what the Lord has said about homos, and it shouldn't leave any doubt in anyone's mind what that is.

Noir
02-01-2019, 07:11 PM
And that's another point - we cannot love god out of fear of being wrong. We can't love god simply because we fear punishment for doing something wrong - that isn't love at all.

:clap::clap::clap:

100% - Need to spread the Rep.
I find it baffling that this kind of thought isn’t ubiquitous among christians I know.

High_Plains_Drifter
02-01-2019, 07:42 PM
:clap::clap::clap:

100% - Need to spread the Rep.
I find it baffling that this kind of thought isn’t ubiquitous among christians I know.
In other words, any reason is a good reason to ignore the words of God, especially coming from the view point of a homosexual.

darin
02-02-2019, 03:47 AM
In other words, any reason is a good reason to ignore the words of God, especially coming from the view point of a homosexual.


The issue is christians ignoring a LOT of the words of God and not-ignoring other words. When christians choose to ignore or not deep-dive into words such as 'love your neighbor as yourself' and yet become consumed with pointing out and standing-up-against the sins of people. We MUST remember from God's perspective Sin is already done. Death, Hell, all that no longer exist.

Do we have any biblical examples of jesus tough-loving anyone besides the religious leaders of the day? Do we have any example of Christ dealing in any way but in love to anyone he knew was 'omgwtf a sinner!' Did christ ever refuse communion, socializing with anyone OTHER than the religious leaders of the day?

People NEED a sense of rules. People struggle with the idea of Grace. People - not saying you in this example - but 'people' seem to be terrified that people who do not obey their rules will also "get to go to heaven" despite not rule-following.

IF the venue were consistent in their faith they might-well forbid the venue's use by married couples who have sex while the wife is on her period. IF they are using The Law (which was ended/fulfilled/moved-beyond) to guide their morality. To worry what God would think by them 'condoning' a gay wedding is at its core the height of (perhaps-unintended) hubris.

Breaks my heart to see christians fear god's punishment as a method of showing their love for him. Especially when they probably dont understand god's judgement, god's punishment is really Love. Grace. Breaks my heart to see Christians delight in picking words from a text - especially when they betray the intent of the author by removing the context, reason, and the intent of the words - to guide them vs them yielding to the spirit of god for their conscience.

High_Plains_Drifter
02-02-2019, 10:29 AM
The issue is christians ignoring a LOT of the words of God and not-ignoring other words. When christians choose to ignore or not deep-dive into words such as 'love your neighbor as yourself' and yet become consumed with pointing out and standing-up-against the sins of people. We MUST remember from God's perspective Sin is already done. Death, Hell, all that no longer exist.

Do we have any biblical examples of jesus tough-loving anyone besides the religious leaders of the day? Do we have any example of Christ dealing in any way but in love to anyone he knew was 'omgwtf a sinner!' Did christ ever refuse communion, socializing with anyone OTHER than the religious leaders of the day?

People NEED a sense of rules. People struggle with the idea of Grace. People - not saying you in this example - but 'people' seem to be terrified that people who do not obey their rules will also "get to go to heaven" despite not rule-following.

IF the venue were consistent in their faith they might-well forbid the venue's use by married couples who have sex while the wife is on her period. IF they are using The Law (which was ended/fulfilled/moved-beyond) to guide their morality. To worry what God would think by them 'condoning' a gay wedding is at its core the height of (perhaps-unintended) hubris.

Breaks my heart to see christians fear god's punishment as a method of showing their love for him. Especially when they probably dont understand god's judgement, god's punishment is really Love. Grace. Breaks my heart to see Christians delight in picking words from a text - especially when they betray the intent of the author by removing the context, reason, and the intent of the words - to guide them vs them yielding to the spirit of god for their conscience.
You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, and I'll believe that sin is NOT "done." Everyone has the choice daily to either sin or not. A sin isn't "done" until you do it, and you have a choice as to whether or not sin, and I'll also believe that depending on your choices, that still makes a difference as to whether or not you go to hell... or heaven.

I get the idea from your point of view that anyone can just go about their life willy nilly and not worry about a single word that's written in Bible, because you LOVE, or because Jesus died for our sins so just don't worry about. People can sin like the crazy, do anything they want, live a complete life of debauchery, it doesn't matter because there is no sin, there is no heaven or hell, there's just nothing to worry about at all just as long as you LOVE.

Well, I'm not on board with that theory, pard... can't do that one. I believe that the closer you follow the word of God, the better, and there is a line between being a total cop out sinner that absolutely disregards the word of God, and someone that tried to live the best they could with the word of God. Neither are an absolute, but one tried to live according to the Bible and the other totally ignored it because he LOVED. Honestly, love isn't going to get you to heaven if you've lived your life in total disregard to what God has spoken in the Bible. That's what I believe.

darin
02-02-2019, 12:22 PM
You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, and I'll believe that sin is NOT "done." Everyone has the choice daily to either sin or not. A sin isn't "done" until you do it, and you have a choice as to whether or not sin, and I'll also believe that depending on your choices, that still makes a difference as to whether or not you go to hell... or heaven.

You then believe God is subject to our timeline, and only earth's time? Asked another way, for God, it's been 2000 years since Christ walked on the earth?




I get the idea from your point of view that anyone can just go about their life willy nilly and not worry about a single word that's written in Bible, because you LOVE, or because Jesus died for our sins so just don't worry about. People can sin like the crazy, do anything they want, live a complete life of debauchery, it doesn't matter because there is no sin, there is no heaven or hell, there's just nothing to worry about at all just as long as you LOVE. \

It seems to me you're implying NOT loving christ and NOT loving others is the lesser of two options and if given a choice, people would MUCH rather separate themselves from god through poor choices and even worse heart-conditions? Sure hell exists, but there is more than one 'hell' mentioned throughout scripture. And because I believe God is outside of the constraints of Earth's timeline, when christ descended into "hell" or the grave or what have you, he descended into a place ALSO outside of the constraints of earth's timeline. Thus, When Christ freed those held-captive in that place, and when Christ took the method of death and eternal torment away he did so with everyone who (from our perspective) would have died or will die. It's borderline sci-fi but there are time paradoxes there.

I believe the point of knowing our creator is NOT to have to give up anything - but to make our lives better; to LOVE better. Debauchery is generally a sign of a broken heart.




Well, I'm not on board with that theory, pard... can't do that one. I believe that the closer you follow the word of God, the better, and there is a line between being a total cop out sinner that absolutely disregards the word of God, and someone that tried to live the best they could with the word of God. Neither are an absolute, but one tried to live according to the Bible and the other totally ignored it because he LOVED. Honestly, love isn't going to get you to heaven if you've lived your life in total disregard to what God has spoken in the Bible. That's what I believe.

It's impossible to be outside of God's ideals for us and to LOVE. Love is the CENTRAL aspect that "gets us to heaven" because apart from God - who IS love - nobody can love.

And then the last part - it really feels like a lot of people read and subscribe to only the parts they decide are worth it - not the parts that make them change their mind.