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View Full Version : Germans debate Govt control of your body after you die.



darin
04-01-2019, 03:27 PM
In the FB comments Germans are seriously praising their government controlling them even AFTER they die. It's bizarre. I'm tellin ya, after living here so long, I am really pretty sure how the National Socialists took over and bad things happened. Germans tend to just obey the rules...if their govt decides something they toe the line. What am I missing here? This country's citizenry are warped, broken, and slaves.



https://www.thelocal.de/20190401/germany-debates-changing-to-opt-out-organ-donation-system?fbclid=IwAR1CJtlMLrgvOpDLz0yu95zHhia_5fQH0G 8lORiQv-BYNd9y83UCkHUbUVQ

CSM
04-02-2019, 05:35 AM
....just following orders.....

Drummond
04-02-2019, 06:27 AM
In the FB comments Germans are seriously praising their government controlling them even AFTER they die. It's bizarre. I'm tellin ya, after living here so long, I am really pretty sure how the National Socialists took over and bad things happened. Germans tend to just obey the rules...if their govt decides something they toe the line. What am I missing here? This country's citizenry are warped, broken, and slaves.


https://www.thelocal.de/20190401/germany-debates-changing-to-opt-out-organ-donation-system?fbclid=IwAR1CJtlMLrgvOpDLz0yu95zHhia_5fQH0G 8lORiQv-BYNd9y83UCkHUbUVQ

The date of the article is a little unfortunate .. some might think it was an April Fool's joke. Not me, though ...

If anything, Germany is lagging behind in this.

I posted previously on this forum about that same measure being adopted where I am. These days, I live in Wales .. this became law there, in 2015. Nobody particularly complained, or made a fuss about it at all. The Welsh are very good at just 'following procedures' .. if something is a 'rule', then, you don't question it. A rule is a rule ! So it was with what they call the 'Presumed Consent' law.

I'm sure it goes without saying that the governing body for Wales, the Welsh Assembly, is dominated by Socialists.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/03/16/all-adults-presumed-organ-donors-new-english-law/


The Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill received Royal Assent on Friday, meaning that from 2020 all of England’s adult residents of sound mind will be presumed to have “consented” to having their organs donated after death unless they have specified otherwise.

The law, similar to that adopted in Wales in 2015, “will mean adults in England will be considered potential donors unless they chose to opt out or are excluded,” according to a Government statement.

Excluded are those who have not lived in England for at least one year before their death, those who “lack the mental capacity to understand the changes for a significant period before their death,” and children under the age of 18.

Wales was a testing-ground for the UK as a whole, I think. England will adopt this law for themselves in 2020. Unlike what's hinted at in your link, Darin, I've seen no notable discussions to date (though we have been preoccupied with Brexit). Over here, people are just far too accepting.

America values the individual, and individual rights, far more than is true on this side of the Pond ... you have your Constitution, and we have no corresponding equivalent. So it is that the Almighty State gets away with this, and people dismiss it as 'normal business'.

P.S ... By the way, having just re-read the article from Darin's link, there's this:


Under the new proposal, citizens would be asked to state whether they object to having their organs or tissue harvested after they are pronounced brain dead.

Those who say "no" would be listed in a national registry run by the health ministry ---

This is actually BETTER than the Welsh version. 'Presumed consent', here, means just that, namely, a PRESUMPTION of consent. Here in Wales, nobody asked me my opinion. Nobody consulted me at all. The presumption of my agreement is automatic, in Welsh law.

Gunny
04-02-2019, 07:44 PM
What makes us so different? Everyone forgot PP farming out abortion parts?

Noir
04-03-2019, 07:50 AM
Not completely sure what the big fuss is about, anyone who wants their organs to rot when they die rather than help someone else is perfectly able to make sure that’s what happens.

darin
04-03-2019, 07:59 AM
Not completely sure what the big fuss is about, anyone who wants their organs to rot when they die rather than help someone else is perfectly able to make sure that’s what happens.

The fact they have to specifically opt-out is the problem. The government is saying "By default, we will decide what happens to your remains" and I think that's horseshit...I suppose you'd disagree because you don't value liberty as much as we in the colonies.

Noir
04-03-2019, 08:44 AM
The fact they have to specifically opt-out is the problem. The government is saying "By default, we will decide what happens to your remains" and I think that's horseshit...I suppose you'd disagree because you don't value liberty as much as we in the colonies.

I don’t particularly value the liberty of dead people, no.

jimnyc
04-03-2019, 09:08 AM
The fact they have to specifically opt-out is the problem. The government is saying "By default, we will decide what happens to your remains" and I think that's horseshit...I suppose you'd disagree because you don't value liberty as much as we in the colonies.

You didn't expect nitwit lefties to have respect and to give some dignity to those who have died, did you? Nevermind the various beliefs of others - THEY feel it's a good idea to do as they please. Dang socialism in death - still taking shit from people and give to others. :rolleyes:

darin
04-03-2019, 09:14 AM
I don’t particularly value the liberty of dead people, no.

Does that mean you wouldn't value people's wishes to opt-out of mandatory donation? I mean, they are dead anyway...

Noir
04-03-2019, 09:33 AM
Does that mean you wouldn't value people's wishes to opt-out of mandatory donation? I mean, they are dead anyway...

Personally, yes, I wouldn’t give a damn.
BUT
I don’t think that should be an active policy.

jimnyc
04-03-2019, 09:59 AM
Does that mean you wouldn't value people's wishes to opt-out of mandatory donation? I mean, they are dead anyway...

Final wishes don't mean much to the left. And now you might even become a voter for the left!

Drummond
04-03-2019, 01:11 PM
Not completely sure what the big fuss is about, anyone who wants their organs to rot when they die rather than help someone else is perfectly able to make sure that’s what happens.

In theory, yes. Our own 'Presumed Consent' law (which IS law in Wales, though I'm not sure it is, yet, in N Ireland ?) is one where the automatic 'default' is that you've 'given consent' just by doing nothing to oppose that status quo. It's perfectly possible to register yourself as somebody who's opted out of consent, i.e you refuse to give that consent as recorded fact.

Seems to me, though, that this is far from foolproof. Many, especially elderly people, won't be mentally 'savvy' enough to enact that opting-out process, despite hating the idea of having one's organs harvested. Would relatives necessarily be sure of their dead relatives' wishes ? What if it had never been discussed ?

Critically -- what happens in the case of a dead body that's unidentified ? Where tissue matches make that body suitable for quick transplant where one is wanted by doctors ... but where the body, in life, would've had strong objections to it ? On religious grounds, perhaps ?

Anyway, Noir .. your wording '... anyone who wants their organs to rot when they die rather than help someone else' suggests to me a disdainful disregard for anyone choosing to be a master of his or her own body, for as long as it may exist. Some see organ plundering as desecration ... in NoirWorld, does nobody have the right to feel that way ?

Is this one concept of decency, Noir, which you feel the Almighty State should be able to legislate against, and stamp out ... on the grounds that bodies are society's fodder, to be used as mere raw material ?

Please clarify.

What's next ... enforced euthanasia ? Maybe, abortions carried out, ordered by the State, for harvesting ? For experimentation, maybe ? Would you draw a line today, only to erase that line in the future, out of mere convenience ?

When, in LeftieWorld, does life itself cease to be worth living, anyway ?

Noir
04-04-2019, 05:44 AM
Critically -- what happens in the case of a dead body that's unidentified ? Where tissue matches make that body suitable for quick transplant where one is wanted by doctors ... but where the body, in life, would've had strong objections to it ? On religious grounds, perhaps ?

I think the chances of an unidentifiable body being discovered that also has viable transplant organs is low, but in any case you’d have to look at the law passed in Wales/Germany to see how they would deal with that case.


Anyway, Noir .. your wording '... anyone who wants their organs to rot when they die rather than help someone else' suggests to me a disdainful disregard for anyone choosing to be a master of his or her own body, for as long as it may exist. Some see organ plundering as desecration ... in NoirWorld, does nobody have the right to feel that way ?

I think the statement you quoted from me is factual, so you disagree with that?
I think that when you cease to exist, you cease to be the master of your body by definition. However I think that is a personal view that would not scale well.


Is this one concept of decency, Noir, which you feel the Almighty State should be able to legislate against, and stamp out ... on the grounds that bodies are society's fodder, to be used as mere raw material ?

Please clarify.

What's next ... enforced euthanasia ? Maybe, abortions carried out, ordered by the State, for harvesting ? For experimentation, maybe ? Would you draw a line today, only to erase that line in the future, out of mere convenience ?

When, in LeftieWorld, does life itself cease to be worth living, anyway ?

I like how you despite saying that what I think should not be an active policy we have ended up with this kind of conjecture.

darin
04-04-2019, 05:58 AM
I could see Germans accepting a law requiring mandatory organ donation while alive...so if I match somebody needing a kidney, I would be forced to provide them one of mine.

Drummond
04-04-2019, 06:28 AM
I could see Germans accepting a law requiring mandatory organ donation while alive...so if I match somebody needing a kidney, I would be forced to provide them one of mine.

Quite. It's a slippery slope. Erode any sense of individual worth, so that it becomes subordinate to what The Almighty State decrees is 'required', and with that thinking taken on board, ultimately any conceivable outrage ceases to BE one.

With people reduced to becoming society's fodder ... the potential for a hell on earth is ever-present, and perhaps 'begging' to be realised.

Drummond
04-04-2019, 06:52 AM
I think the chances of an unidentifiable body being discovered that also has viable transplant organs is low, but in any case you’d have to look at the law passed in Wales/Germany to see how they would deal with that case.

The 'low chance' you describe would translate to how many decisions taken to enact the task of harvesting those organs, minus confirmation it was OK to proceed ? Call it half of one percent of the total potential harvesting cases (or even less ?). How many so-called 'illegal' such cases would exist ? How many outrages committed ?

By your own admission (effectively) it's hardly a foolproof system. HOWEVER .. with organ donation only permitted with PROOF of CONSENT ... you have no prospect of error, and you have individual rights protected and fully observed at all times.


I think the statement you quoted from me is factual, so you disagree with that?

You imply selfishness on the part of the person refusing to permit donation, as if such a decision must be disapproved of. For myself, I'd call it a human right for an individual to NOT have their bodies plundered, at a time when they cease to have a means of resisting it.

Those having religious objections to desecration, I suggest, have A RIGHT to those objections.

... Or, would you outlaw that right, Noir ? Should The State dictate in that fashion ?


I think that when you cease to exist, you cease to be the master of your body by definition. However I think that is a personal view that would not scale well.

If by 'not scale well', you mean some would see it as a disgusting affront to decency ... you have a point.

So tell me, Noir: in the case of a person whose mental awareness is impaired to the point where said person cannot make autonomous decisions, say for example as a result of a car accident resulting in brain injury ... should the State step in, deny that person recognition as an autonomous individual human being, and euthanise that person, to go on an organ-grabbing spree ??

I mean, heyy, why not, eh, Noir ? Such a person would cease to be a master of their body ! Why not move in and plunder ?? After all, organs would be fresher and maybe more viable if taken from a still-living body !

Do you see, Noir ? 'Ceasing to be the master of your body by definition', as a criterion, ITSELF opens up the possibility of abuse and inhumanity. It's the beginning of a slippery slope in which the individual's status ceases to have meaning, as such. In such a scenario, goalposts can be shifted, 'outrages' cease to be seen as such, and ever-worse atrocities, ENSHRINED IN LAW, become the norm !!


I like how you despite saying that what I think should not be an active policy we have ended up with this kind of conjecture.

I can't agree. There's nothing 'to like' about the social hell that Left-wing thinking, if ever fully adopted, would unleash upon us all.

Such a pity that you can't see this.