Britain's Version Of 'Medicare For All' Is Struggling With Long Waits For Care

[jimnyc]

Obviously can't give much input on this myself, other than it wouldn't be surprising. Drummond - what sayeth you? Explain to us any problems you see, and if this article is accurate. Thanks! This is from Forbes, which is generally accurate, but also has its share of opinion pieces too.

If the numbers are accurate, that's some scary times!

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Britain's Version Of 'Medicare For All' Is Struggling With Long Waits For Care

Nearly a quarter of a million British patients have been waiting more than six months to receive planned medical treatment from the National Health Service, according to a recent report from the Royal College of Surgeons. More than 36,000 have been in treatment queues for nine months or more.

Long waits for care are endemic to government-run, single-payer systems like the NHS. Yet some U.S. lawmakers want to import that model from across the pond. That would be a massive blunder.

Consider how long it takes to get care at the emergency room in Britain. Government data show that hospitals in England only saw 84.2% of patients within four hours in February. That's well below the country's goal of treating 95% of patients within four hours -- a target the NHS hasn't hit since 2015.

Now, instead of cutting wait times, the NHS is looking to scrap the goal.

Wait times for cancer treatment -- where timeliness can be a matter of life and death -- are also far too lengthy. According to January NHS England data, almost 25% of cancer patients didn't start treatment on time despite an urgent referral by their primary care doctor. That's the worst performance since records began in 2009.

And keep in mind that "on time" for the NHS is already 62 days after referral.

Unsurprisingly, British cancer patients fare worse than those in the United States. Only 81% of breast cancer patients in the United Kingdom live at least five years after diagnosis, compared to 89% in the United States. Just 83% of patients in the United Kingdom live five years after a prostate cancer diagnosis, versus 97% here in America.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2019/04/01/britains-version-of-medicare-for-all-is-collapsing/#2d19375336b8

[Gunny]

I don't have private healthcare nor private/individual insurance so I'm at a blank on this topic. How fast do you get an appointment with a private/civilian doctor?

I'm 6 weeks out at best, and that's for emergencies :laugh:. J/K on the emergencies :) Depending on what it is, I may STILL get just a PA.

And that's a appointment to sit and wait until whenever.

[jimnyc]

I don't have private healthcare nor private/individual insurance so I'm at a blank on this topic. How fast do you get an appointment with a private/civilian doctor?

I'm 6 weeks out at best, and that's for emergencies :laugh:. J/K on the emergencies :) Depending on what it is, I may STILL get just a PA.

And that's a appointment to sit and wait until whenever.

Mine? I can make an appointment almost always for the next day if I tell them it's important. Otherwise, usually 3-5 days for an appointment. Waiting 6 weeks is insane and that shit MUST be fixed. :rolleyes:

[Gunny]

Mine? I can make an appointment almost always for the next day if I tell them it's important. Otherwise, usually 3-5 days for an appointment. Waiting 6 weeks is insane and that shit MUST be fixed. :rolleyes:

As I said a few years ago ... welcome to the result of socialized medicine. That thing everyone was intent on getting. A same day appointment? My doctor would tell me to go to an emergency room. That's how military medical is.

And for those vets that want to know: I have to go on base due to proximity for my primary. Which is a joke. Anyone gone to a military medical facility and seen the same doctor twice? So my Tricare amounts to the base or an ER, and it better be an emergency.

Obamacare slowed it even more because of all the people it opened up to the facility.

[Gunny]

Here's something else I firmly believe: When I went down for the count a couple of years ago, EMS took me to the University of New Mexico Hospital. Now I got a bitch or two with that place; however, I temper THAT with they DID sorta fix me. Howcome it was I managed to come out of a medically induced coma and yank out the incabation tube is another question.

Flipside is, I believe had I been taken to a military medical facility I'd be 2 years dead. For that reason, unlike a dimbulbcrat, I consider the aforementioned "issue" (and a few others) to be quite trivial in comparison.

[Drummond]

Obviously can't give much input on this myself, other than it wouldn't be surprising. @Drummond (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=2287) - what sayeth you? Explain to us any problems you see, and if this article is accurate. Thanks! This is from Forbes, which is generally accurate, but also has its share of opinion pieces too.

If the numbers are accurate, that's some scary times!

---

Britain's Version Of 'Medicare For All' Is Struggling With Long Waits For Care

Nearly a quarter of a million British patients have been waiting more than six months to receive planned medical treatment from the National Health Service, according to a recent report from the Royal College of Surgeons. More than 36,000 have been in treatment queues for nine months or more.

Long waits for care are endemic to government-run, single-payer systems like the NHS. Yet some U.S. lawmakers want to import that model from across the pond. That would be a massive blunder.

Consider how long it takes to get care at the emergency room in Britain. Government data show that hospitals in England only saw 84.2% of patients within four hours in February. That's well below the country's goal of treating 95% of patients within four hours -- a target the NHS hasn't hit since 2015.

Now, instead of cutting wait times, the NHS is looking to scrap the goal.

Wait times for cancer treatment -- where timeliness can be a matter of life and death -- are also far too lengthy. According to January NHS England data, almost 25% of cancer patients didn't start treatment on time despite an urgent referral by their primary care doctor. That's the worst performance since records began in 2009.

And keep in mind that "on time" for the NHS is already 62 days after referral.

Unsurprisingly, British cancer patients fare worse than those in the United States. Only 81% of breast cancer patients in the United Kingdom live at least five years after diagnosis, compared to 89% in the United States. Just 83% of patients in the United Kingdom live five years after a prostate cancer diagnosis, versus 97% here in America.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2019/04/01/britains-version-of-medicare-for-all-is-collapsing/#2d19375336b8

Well, I don't have a lot to say on this that'll surprise anybody here. What's being described is the state of a National Health Service that's been struggling to cope with healthcare demand for a considerable period. This is all far from 'new'. To us, it's so 'normal' that, except in totally crisis conditions (as in the depths of winter, for example) it's all scarcely newsworthy. As a 'story', it's years old.

The average wait-time, now, to see a GP (doctor, hopefully in your general area) is two weeks. You'd ring for an appointment, have one fixed that time in advance ... and, when you ultimately see that doctor, he gives you a maximum ten minutes of his time per appointment, before moving on to the next patient. This has become increasingly standard across England and Wales. If a patient has multiple health issues ... either they need to be covered within that period, or, another appointment must be made (incurring another two week wait).

Doctors do have a better 'tier' of service than that. In my locality, to be fitted in for a more urgent appointment, you need to ring his surgery before 10.30am in order to have your appointment fitted in for that day. It's on a 'first come, first served' basis. Ring shortly before the cutoff time, and if you're lucky a doctor will see you by the end of the day. If unlucky, you need to ring the next day and hope you can be fitted in, under the same terms.

If the emergency is such that a person can't wait for a GP, then we'd ring '999' (our version of 911) and go to the nearest hospital, either by ambulance or privately-arranged transport. Once there, if you're lucky, they'll see you, diagnose you, treat you, anything from a 'guaranteed' initial 4 hours (to be seen, and many hospitals fail to meet that guaranteed deadline these days) or several hours later than that (to be diagnosed and treated).

That describes the 'accident & emergency' service. If the issue is so immediate as to be life-threatening, then the wait in an 'A&E' waiting room is circumvented, but, speed of treatment is dependent on how available resources are .. doctors & nurses available, available ward or other beds. This varies a lot from hospital to hospital. In crisis conditions, patients may be lying on trolleys waiting for attention, and maybe a bed, for hours longer, possibly for many hours.

But as I say, this isn't new. Far from it.

As for the six month waiting time you mention, Jim ... well, that addresses a wait for operations that can be planned for in advance. Something like a decade ago, the then-Labour Government announced, with considerable pride at the time, that this waiting period had been reduced to a 'mere' 38 weeks.

It was reduced to that number of weeks from an initial TWO YEAR wait. Operations such as hip operations ... not life threatening, merely painful and possibly debilitating ... used to incur these delays.

Such is socialised healthcare, folks. A healthcare service free at the point of treatment, paid for through compulsory taxation ... run by The State ... is never particularly efficient. But, most of us Brits are stuck with it.

The irony (and insanity) is that the NHS holds such reverential status to most of us that we think of it as a 'good' service. Such has been the level of indoctrination in the UK that any politician suggesting radical overhaul, or a scrapping of the NHS, would be committing political suicide if s/he suggested it.

Madness ... isn't it ? Never, but NEVER, underestimate a Socialists' ability to brainwash, en-masse.

[icansayit]

Is getting his surgery HERE. How long did he have to wait? MAGA.....Not OBAMACARE, on British Steroids.

[Gunny]

Is getting his surgery HERE. How long did he have to wait? MAGA.....Not OBAMACARE, on British Steroids.The House is trying to protect what's left of it.


OAN Newsroom
UPDATED 7:05 AM PT — Thursday, April 4, 2019House Democrats are attempting to put more pressure on Republicans as the debate over health care reform resurfaces.
On Wednesday, the lower chamber passed a non-binding resolution, condemning the Trump administration’s push to roll back Obamacare in the courts. Lawmakers approved the measure along a 240-to-186 vote, with eight Republicans voting with Democrats.


The move comes after the Justice Department signaled support for a lawsuit, which argues the health care law is unconstitutional. However, the measure is not expected to be taken up for a vote by the Republican-controlled Senate.

“So, I made it clear to him (President Trump) we were not going to be doing that in the Senate. He did say, as he later tweeted, he accepted that, and that he would be developing a plan that he would take to the American people during the 2020 campaign and suggested that would be what he would be advocating in a second term if there were a Republican Congress. So, we don’t have a misunderstanding about that. We’ll not be doing comprehensive in the Senate.”— Mitch McConnell, Senate Majority LeaderOn Wednesday, the president said he never intended to hold a vote on health care before 2020, and plans to campaign on the issue during his reelection bid.

https://www.oann.com/house-democrats-condemn-anti-obamacare-push-pass-non-binding-resolution/

[Noir]

Speaking personally/anecdotally my experience with the NHS has been pretty positive, my partner more often that not gets same day appointments at the doctors, and my mother who recently took ill was admitted and operated on in less than 24 hours.

The arguments for failures in the NHS are many - not least that nurse wages have seen a real time decrease of over 10% in the last decade due to funding cuts, which is leading to inevitable staff shortages and reliance on immigrant labour.

[Drummond]

Speaking personally/anecdotally my experience with the NHS has been pretty positive, my partner more often that not gets same day appointments at the doctors, and my mother who recently took ill was admitted and operated on in less than 24 hours.

The arguments for failures in the NHS are many - not least that nurse wages have seen a real time decrease of over 10% in the last decade due to funding cuts, which is leading to inevitable staff shortages and reliance on immigrant labour.

Your description of comparatively good service is remarkable, and definitely doesn't match anything currently experienced elsewhere in the UK, so far as I'm aware.

Is your experience of GP appointments limited to ten minutes not mirrored where you are, Noir ? Your account doesn't enlighten us on that matter.

Think before answering:

https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4709


The BMA has called for GP appointment times in England to increase from 10 minutes long to 15 minutes and for the number of consultations per doctor to be substantially cut to help reduce workload pressure.

The recommendations are outlined in a new report that aims to tackle the “unsustainable” pressure caused by rising demand, falling resources, and staff shortages. The BMA said that GPs were currently forced to see up to 60 patients a day in 10 minute appointment slots that were inadequate for the increasingly complex conditions that patients present with.

See this:

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-ae-patients-now-16072180


People who are turning up to hospitals in North Wales for emergency treatment are waiting more than seven hours to be sent home or admitted to hospital.

On average, it is taking up to 440 minutes - seven and three-quarter hours - at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd.

The health board says the figures also include the times people who are returning for follow up treatment must wait.

But the waiting times are drastically worse than they were five years ago, when a patient could expect to wait around three and a half hours.

I look forward to your own links, Noir, showing present-day waits that are substantially better than this for your part of the UK ... along with any thoughts you have as to how, or why, N Ireland would outstrip the rest of the UK's NHS 'service'.

[Noir]

Your description of comparatively good service is remarkable, and definitely doesn't match anything currently experienced elsewhere in the UK, so far as I'm aware.

Is your experience of GP appointments limited to ten minutes not mirrored where you are, Noir ? Your account doesn't enlighten us on that matter.

Think before answering:

https://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i4709

See this:

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-ae-patients-now-16072180

I look forward to your own links, Noir, showing present-day waits that are substantially better than this for your part of the UK ... along with any thoughts you have as to how, or why, N Ireland would outstrip the rest of the UK's NHS 'service'.

As I said in my post - it was purely anecdotal (and therefore mostly worthless), and it may be that my neighbour has had a miserable time and waits weeks to see their GP, but by way of my an example of my own experience- only this week my partner became ill, she phoned her doctor Tuesday morning, and before she started work the very same morning she had been able to see her doctor and pick up a prescription at the pharmacy.

As for any difference between NI and GB - We allocator our own healthcare budget, so for example our prescriptions are free when in England you pay for them. Other differences in allocations could account for better GP service if my experience is representative.

[Drummond]

As I said in my post - it was purely anecdotal (and therefore mostly worthless), and it may be that my neighbour has had a miserable time and waits weeks to see their GP, but by way of my an example of my own experience- only this week my partner became ill, she phoned her doctor Tuesday morning, and before she started work the very same morning she had been able to see her doctor and pick up a prescription at the pharmacy.

As for any difference between NI and GB - We allocator our own healthcare budget, so for example our prescriptions are free when in England you pay for them. Other differences in allocations could account for better GP service if my experience is representative.

OK, well, you admit that your descriptions of the NHS's performance are anecdotal, and I've seen no links / material proving that your locality fares notably better than my own.

Noir, I live in Wales (though I'm an ex-Londoner, I haven't lived in England for several years). I'm aware that, in England, a person pays a fee for each item included in a prescription. Still, though, despite that additional funding, England's NHS Trusts struggle with the resources at their disposal.

They also do in Wales, which has free prescriptions as well as your part of the UK. Wales, too, struggles, and in some areas (ambulance response time, for example) quickness of response is known to be significantly worse than in England.

Overall ... the NHS creaks along. Just. It doesn't actually 'fail' as a health service (if you ignore the Mid Staffs scandal from a few years ago, for example !) ... IF ... you can call third world-quality healthcare 'succeeding'. But, no matter how much money is thrown at it, it still manages to struggle.

If you want to defy my description, please, show me material (NOT purely anecdotal accounts) which shows I'm wrong.

[Gunny]

OK, well, you admit that your descriptions of the NHS's performance are anecdotal, and I've seen no links / material proving that your locality fares notably better than my own.

Noir, I live in Wales (though I'm an ex-Londoner, I haven't lived in England for several years). I'm aware that, in England, a person pays a fee for each item included in a prescription. Still, though, despite that additional funding, England's NHS Trusts struggle with the resources at their disposal.

They also do in Wales, which has free prescriptions as well as your part of the UK. Wales, too, struggles, and in some areas (ambulance response time, for example) quickness of response is known to be significantly worse than in England.

Overall ... the NHS creaks along. Just. It doesn't actually 'fail' as a health service (if you ignore the Mid Staffs scandal from a few years ago, for example !) ... IF ... you can call third world-quality healthcare 'succeeding'. But, no matter how much money is thrown at it, it still manages to struggle.

If you want to defy my description, please, show me material (NOT purely anecdotal accounts) which shows I'm wrong.You made THE point: It "creaks along". That's what I want to hear when I need medical care.

Now, if I was some dumbass, big-mouthed celebrity who didn't know my ass from a hole in ground I'd have the best and promptest care. No wait, no stalling, no dragging it out, leave with the drugs I decide I need ...

It's like having Rights in this country ... you have as many (or as much in this case) as you can afford to purchase.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

If UK medical is great, then why did Mick Jagger come to America for his heart surgery?

[STTAB]

As I said a few years ago ... welcome to the result of socialized medicine. That thing everyone was intent on getting. A same day appointment? My doctor would tell me to go to an emergency room. That's how military medical is.

And for those vets that want to know: I have to go on base due to proximity for my primary. Which is a joke. Anyone gone to a military medical facility and seen the same doctor twice? So my Tricare amounts to the base or an ER, and it better be an emergency.

Obamacare slowed it even more because of all the people it opened up to the facility.

We have a small VA clinic 30 miles from me, they are pretty good, but still for routine exams and such you better call at least 3 months in advance. I've only had one experience with an emergency a few years ago I cut myself pretty badly on a barbed wire fence, it required stitches, they told me to come in to them rather than the emergency room and got to me within 15 minutes of my arrival. 25 stitches , it was a fair sized cut. Of course it's just a clinic so anything major you're off to either fayetteville or little rock, hopefully little rock, because you might just die in the Fayetteville VA.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

We have a small VA clinic 30 miles from me, they are pretty good, but still for routine exams and such you better call at least 3 months in advance. I've only had one experience with an emergency a few years ago I cut myself pretty badly on a barbed wire fence, it required stitches, they told me to come in to them rather than the emergency room and got to me within 15 minutes of my arrival. 25 stitches , it was a fair sized cut. Of course it's just a clinic so anything major you're off to either fayetteville or little rock, hopefully little rock, because you might just die in the Fayetteville VA.
Nearest VA is 60 miles from me, and that's the west side clinic in Madison. The main hospital is a little further away and a much bigger pain to get to. Damn near downtown Madison, but it's linked with the UW Madison hospital and if you need something major, the UW will assist, and the UW Madison hospital has got a very good reputation as being one of the better hospitals in the nation. I've had two major surgeries there. One was badly needed, a cervical discectomy for the nerves I crushed in my neck in the Air Force, and the other... well... I think they used me as a guinea pig. They sliced my right lung open and damn near cut me in half through the rib cage on the right side of me, and I swear to God I don't think they needed to do that. I was alone, had no family, no wife, no one to run that past and get a second opinion. Pisses me off to this day. But all in all, I think the VA care I've gotten thus far ain't bad. I'm going to use the Veterans Choice more though now. Even though I was already qualified, after writing to my congressman and applying some pressure after they DIDN'T accept me, they relaxed the qualification for it and it got a bunch more money.