Notre Dame - Paris: It burns :( [Archive] - Debate Policy

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darin

04-15-2019, 12:56 PM

https://www.foxnews.com/world/massive-fire-breaks-out-in-notre-dame-cathedral-in-paris

Would bet dollars to donuts this is terrorism. But because the church was under some renovations, I doubt the French Govt would EVER admit it was terrorists. God that church was beautiful. Just wonderful to be there. :(

Was last there in 2017.

11997

CSM

04-15-2019, 01:19 PM

Regardless of religious belief, it is a tragedy.

darin

04-15-2019, 01:20 PM

history will be forever altered. :( Nearly 1000 years right there... :( 800-something.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-15-2019, 01:57 PM

That may be a sad thing but it is nothing compared to what the muslims in that country are all about doing to it in the future.
When the muslims take over every Christian church , Jewish Synagogue will be destroyed and replaced by mosques.
They will not allow historic buildings that do not glorify , Islam/Allah..-Tyr

LongTermGuy

04-15-2019, 02:16 PM

Right before EASTER....Interesting...Not even God can help (or care to) muslim mosques...if found out muslims are to blame....Time will tell.....How the people there will react.

jimnyc

04-15-2019, 03:09 PM

The spire collapsed. :(

---

Historic Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris IN FLAMES – Iconic Spire COLLAPSE

...

The iconic spire and roof on the 850-year-old building collapsed!

(video of it falling at link)

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/04/developing-notre-dame-cathedral-in-paris-on-fire-video/

jimnyc

04-15-2019, 03:12 PM

Would bet dollars to donuts this is terrorism. But because the church was under some renovations, I doubt the French Govt would EVER admit it was terrorists.

And then this. Sure makes you wonder, even if it was awhile back. It was obviously a target.

ON FRIDAY Female Jihadi Jailed Over Attempted Car Bombing Outside Notre Dame Cathedral

On Friday Islamic terrorists Inez Madani was jailed for eight years for her attempted car bombing outside of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.

Madani was wounded with a knife in the belly of a police officer during the arrest in 2016.

On Friday she was jailed for eight years in the attempted attack.

Rest - https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/04/breaking-on-friday-female-jihadi-jailed-over-attempted-car-bombing-outside-notre-dame-cathedral/

High_Plains_Drifter

04-15-2019, 03:21 PM

Ya know dang well it was muslims, but will the frenchies have the balls to report it?

My guess is no, they'll cover it up somehow because they're SCARED of the muslims now. There's too many of them in Paris. It's a slow decline into total muslim control and sharia law from here on out for the french. They've got enough problems on their hands with the yellow vests, they don't want to tell everyone it was a muslim that burnt down Notre Dame now. The globalists might not be able to contain the people. Someone might HURT a MUSLIM... OMG... can't have anyone MAD at MUSLIMS. They can KILL, RAPE, BURN AND BOMB to their hearts content, but don't ANYBODY SAY ANYTHING AGAINST THEM, we don't want any ISLAMOPHOBIA. Dumbest bull shit I ever heard in my life.

We're going to have to RELIVE the Crusades I'm afraid, unless people WANT to live under islamic sharia law.

Bilgerat

04-15-2019, 07:04 PM

Taken from the Claw of Knowledge

Since Notre Dame was built 850 years ago, it has been damaged and desecrated in multiple religious riots, had the heads lobbed off its statues during the French Revolution, been taken over by Nazis and had its stained glass shattered by stray bullets, had its spire broken off by wind, and been left half-collapsed due to neglect. Am I nearly in tears watching a treasure of European architecture burn? Yes. But just remember that in the nine centuries the building has been around, it's seen a lot worse.

Elessar

04-15-2019, 07:31 PM

This is just awful.

I am hoping it is investigated completely.

Kathianne

04-15-2019, 07:38 PM

Taken from the Claw of Knowledge

I think there are terror acts that are sort of pushed into the quiet zone. I doubt this is one of them. I'm with you on that between the age, amount of wood construction, years of neglect/prior damage, now the renovations, it's likely just a horrendous accident.

I'll keep an open mind, as it's been a target before, from both jihadis and others over time, but so far I buy the most likely cause.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-15-2019, 07:38 PM

This is just awful.

I am hoping it is investigated completely.

If it was arson carried out by a muslim the French are not likely to let that fact be made public, IMHO.
They would very likely concoct a cover story to protect that ever so peaceful Islam,
( you know the one all those morons lie about being so damn peaceful and harmless)..--Tyr

Kathianne

04-15-2019, 08:07 PM

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/57555454_10217750101401580_1111536183290101760_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=3a9f61b220b76fa12a55412d4f2d9418&oe=5D2EF51C

One of the first pictures of inside damage. :(

Elessar

04-15-2019, 11:05 PM

If it was arson carried out by a muslim the French are not likely to let that fact be made public, IMHO.
They would very likely concoct a cover story to protect that ever so peaceful Islam,
( you know the one all those morons lie about being so damn peaceful and harmless)..--Tyr

I respectfully disagree, Old Friend.

France has been aggressive combating Muslim terrorism, in spite of the Communist government
that was leading the country for years.

They have felt the jabs of the Jihadists for decades now.

Noir

04-16-2019, 01:48 AM

Would bet dollars to donuts this is terrorism. But because the church was under some renovations, I doubt the French Govt would EVER admit it was terrorists.

Terrorists tend to like to make it known when they carry out attacks, so unless the terrorist group that carried out such an attack wanted to hide the fact then it will be known.

darin

04-16-2019, 02:04 AM

Terrorists tend to like to make it known when they carry out attacks, so unless the terrorist group that carried out such an attack wanted to hide the fact then it will be known.

sometimes, yep. (shrug). I doubt the French Govt would tell the truth anyway. if it happened on accident, the guy at fault should be placed into whatever their version of Witness Protection is.

High_Plains_Drifter

04-16-2019, 06:49 AM

I don't recall what I was listening to at the time yesterday, but it was reported that the workers working there had said that the fire was NOT an accident. I'm sure that was hushed up real fast, so, it'll be interesting to see what they come up as a cause. Sometimes we just never know truth, ever.

We have a retired 4 star general now going around saying 9/11 was an inside job...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT9-jLESHA8

High_Plains_Drifter

04-16-2019, 07:20 AM

Make up your own mind...

https://twitter.com/Alrob67/status/1118054526366433280

Nothing to see here folks... move along and just forget about this...

https://twitter.com/smoss319/status/1117963560636829696

High_Plains_Drifter

04-16-2019, 07:32 AM

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-16-2019, 07:37 AM

Christian churches are under attack by muslims the world over, and at an alarming, horrendous rate. But you don't hear the democrat propaganda wing tell you about it, or even your local liberal news of it happening right here in America. We ignore this shit at our own peril. Muslims are banking on Americans being apathetic.

“Submit to Islam”: South Carolina Church Vandalized With Islamic-Themed Graffiti

https://summit.news/2019/04/16/submit-to-islam-south-carolina-church-vandalized-with-islamic-themed-graffiti/

They work so tirelessly in order to keep the false image of Islam intact.
And not just the muslims do that but the majority of that is done by their leftist/liberal infidel allies, == Dem party , the mainstrean media and much of the Federal government here.
Sad and tragic is it not??--Tyr

Abbey Marie

04-16-2019, 09:50 AM

High_Plains_Drifter

04-16-2019, 11:01 AM

How fascinating and unsurprising.
Yep... and I bet we never hear who that was.

But it looks like a muslim wearing turbine to me.

I still believe they'll cover it up if it was muslims that torched it. They're just scared stiff of ISLAMOPHOBIA. We just CAN'T have anyone NOT LIKING muslims. They're PROTECTED, even though they're the most BLOODY, MURDEROUS, TERRORIST bunch of freakin' CAVE MEN on the planet, when in all actuality, a SEVERE BACKLASH against islam is what this world needs... BAD. I just don't know how much more terror at the hands of islam the world needs to see before we wake the hell up. It's baffling. Calling it the religion of peace is like calling a serial killer a messenger of life.

EDIT: No sooner do I make the comments above, but I turn on Rush Limbaugh and he's saying the EXACT SAME THING. When and how did we get to the point where we can't even SPECULATE, even though we KNOW, that there's ISLAMIC TERRORISM? WHY is that NOT ALLOWED anymore? We have NEVER NOT identified the ENEMY in any war before, but now, even though the enemy is in PLAIN SIGHT, we SEE WHAT THEY'RE DOING, we CAN'T say ANYTHING about it. WHY?

The below meme is it in a nut shell, and the sooner people learn it, the better off the WORLD will be. THEY HATE US. They want to either TAKE US OVER and RULE US under SHARIA LAW, or they will DIE TRYING, and we know DAMN WELL it's happening, and they are using OUR FREEDOM, APATHY and IGNORANT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS and FEAR of them and what they'll DO against us... PERIOD. It's like someone coming in and KILLING YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY, and then YOU can't say JACK SHIT AGAINST that person, for fear that there might be a BACK LASH against that person. Well FUCK... THERE SHOULD BE! Same with islam.

https://i.ibb.co/9W3TGGQ/muslim-bitch.jpg

STTAB

04-16-2019, 11:40 AM

I don't have one single doubt that this was an act of Islamic terrorism. Proof ? No, but I also don't believe in coincidences.

High_Plains_Drifter

04-16-2019, 12:08 PM

I don't have one single doubt that this was an act of Islamic terrorism. Proof ? No, but I also don't believe in coincidences.

There have been TEN RECENT ATTACKS against CHRISTIAN CHURCHES in Paris... TEN... but did anyone report on that? NO. WHY?

France: At least 10 incidents of vandalism and desecration of Catholic churches in last two weeks

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/02/france-at-least-10-incidents-of-vandalism-and-desecration-of-catholic-church-in-last-two-weeks

Don't tell me Notre Dame was an ACCIDENT... sorry... not buying it.

jimnyc

04-16-2019, 03:17 PM

Terrorists tend to like to make it known when they carry out attacks, so unless the terrorist group that carried out such an attack wanted to hide the fact then it will be known.

Fwiw, ISIS as responded yesterday and claimed it was "retribution and punishment" and then they say "Have a good day". Myself? Not convinced, not until they would offer some proof that they were involved. Otherwise, they can just be taking advantage of the situation.

But considering they HAVE made it known over the years that this is a target for them, only adds to the suspicion. I think many muslims over the years have stated such - and many muslims are probably smiling away today. And even though I think the fire was from renovation, it would still overjoy so so many of them. So ISIS can be just like so many others, and just overjoyed at what took place. :(

--

'Have a nice day': ISIS fanatics revel in Notre Dame's destruction days before Easter as they describe the inferno as 'retribution and punishment'

---ISIS affiliated propaganda group made a heartless poster of the inferno in Paris
---It was accompanied by a cruel message bidding 'au revoir' to Notre Dame
---The world mourned as the 850-year-old cathedral erupted in flames on Monday
---Prosecutors said they are treating it as an accident, ruling out terror for now

ISIS fanatics are heartlessly revelling in the inferno at Notre Dame Cathedral just days before Easter calling it 'retribution and punishment', according to terror intelligence researchers.

A poster of the blazing cathedral appeared online accompanied by the words, 'Have a good day,' and was created by the ISIS affiliated Al-Muntasir group according to the Terrorism Research & Analysis Consortium.

The poster says: 'Its construction began in the year 1163 and ended in 1345. It's time to say goodbye to your oratory polytheism.'

The jihadists referred to the catastrophe as 'retribution and punishment,' SITE intelligence reported.

Rest - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6927101/Have-nice-day-ISIS-fanatics-revel-Notre-Dames-destruction-describing-punishment.html

also - https://dailycaller.com/2019/04/16/isis-notre-dame-cathedral-fire-destruction-poster-report/

jimnyc

04-16-2019, 03:21 PM

Now THIS is just awesome!

Such a beautiful and iconic cathedral SHOULD be rebuilt, and they all know it, and 2 are already willing to fund it! I love stories like this, where such goodness comes from horrible tragedies. This is a worldwide loved cathedral.

---

Two French billionaires offer hundreds of millions of euros to help rebuild Notre Dame

Two French billionaires pledged Tuesday to donate a total of 300 million euros to fund the restoration of Notre Dame cathedral after Monday’s massive fire.

François-Henri Pinault, chairman and CEO of the luxury retail group Kering and president of Groupe Artémis, announced Monday night while fires still burned in Notre Dame that his family would donate 100 million euros to help rebuild the cathedral. Bernard Arnault, chairman and CEO of the luxury group LVMH, doubled Pinault’s donation on Tuesday, pledging to give 200 million euros toward the reconstruction of Notre Dame, according to Buzzfeed News.

“My father [François Pinault] and I have decided to release as of now from the funds of Artemis a sum of 100 million euros to participate in the effort that will be necessary for the complete reconstruction of Notre Dame,” Pinault wrote in a statement.

Rest - https://dailycaller.com/2019/04/16/billionaires-rebuild-notre-dame/

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-16-2019, 04:05 PM

https://www1.cbn.com/churchandministry/1400-years-of-christian-islamic-struggle

1,400 Years of Christian/Islamic Struggle: An Analysis

Religion and Cults
Richard C. Csaplar, Jr.

I was very disappointed to see that U.S. News would publish a clearly false article, adopting the world's clearly false, politically correct (PC) view of the place of the Crusades in history. What makes it even worse, the article hides its views under the additional headline falsehood, "The Truth About the Epic Clash Between Christianity and Islam."

Let me explain.

The opening heading states, "During the Crusades, East and West first met." This is just totally in error, as any person with the slightest knowledge of history well knows. East and West had been fighting for at least 1,500 years before the first Crusade.

To give just a few examples -- the Persians invaded Europe in an attempt to conquer the Greeks in the fifth century B.C. The Greek, Alexander the Great, attempted to conquer all of Asia, as far as India, in the fourth century B.C. Both the Persians of the east and the Greeks of the west set up colonial empires founded upon bloody military conquest. The Romans established by bloody military conquest colonies in Mesopotamia, northwestern Arabia, and Assyria in the second century A.D.

A different type of bloody conquest occurred through the movement of whole tribal groups between the east and the west. Again, just to name a few, the Huns, the Goths, and the Avars came from as far away as western Asia, central Asia, and China respectively in the fifth through the seventh centuries A.D. Indeed, the Avars from northern China and Mongolia were besieging Constantinople in 626 A.D., at the very moment Mohammed was a merchant in Arabia. Indeed, the Avars, by this siege, were one of the forces that weakened the Byzantines (there were many other, perhaps more important, forces) to the extent that most of the Byzantine mid-eastern empire fell relatively easily to the Muslims.

But let's give the writer the benefit of the doubt and say that the author meant that "During the Crusades, Islam and Christianity first met." This, of course, is also totally false.

Let us review the Muslim conquest. In 624, Mohammed led a raid for booty and plunder against a Meccan caravan, killing 70 Meccans for mere material gain. Between 630 A.D. and the death of Mohammed in 632 A.D., Muslims -- on at least one occasion led by Mohammed -- had conquered the bulk of western Arabia and southern Palestine through approximately a dozen separate invasions and bloody conquests. These conquests were in large part "Holy wars," putting the lie to another statement in the U.S. News article that proclaimed the Crusades "The First Holy War," as if the Christians had invented the concept of a holy war. After Mohammed's death in 632, the new Muslim caliph, Abu Bakr, launched Islam into almost 1,500 years of continual imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war, a role Islam continues to this very day.

You will note the string of adjectives and may have some objection to my using them. They are used because they are the absolute truth. Anyone denying them is a victim of PC thinking, ignorant of history, or lying to protect Islam. Let us take each word separately before we proceed further in our true history of the relationship between the Christian west and the Islamic east.

Imperialistic

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

Colonialist

The Muslim goal was to have a central government, first at Damascus, and then at Baghdad -- later at Cairo, Istanbul, or other imperial centers. The local governors, judges, and other rulers were appointed by the central imperial authorities for far off colonies. Islamic law was introduced as the senior law, whether or not wanted by the local people. Arabic was introduced as the rulers' language, and the local language frequently disappeared. Two classes of residents were established. The native residents paid a tax that their colonialist rulers did not have to pay.

Although the law differed in different places, the following are examples of colonialist laws to which colonized Christians and Jews were made subject to over the years:

Christians and Jews could not bear arms -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews could not ride horses -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to get permission to build -- Muslims did not;
Christians and Jews had to pay certain taxes which Muslims did not;
Christians could not proselytize -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to bow to their Muslim masters when they paid their taxes; and
Christians and Jews had to live under the law set forth in the Koran, not under either their own religious or secular law.
In each case, these laws allowed the local conquered people less freedom than was allowed the conquering colonialist rulers. Even non-Arab Muslim inhabitants of the conquered lands became second class citizens behind the ruling Arabs. This is the classic definition of colonialist -- "a group of people who settle in a distant territory from the state having jurisdiction or control over it and who remain under the political jurisdiction of their native land."

We will talk about "bloody" as we proceed. Because the U.S. News article related only to the Christian west against the Muslim east, except in this paragraph I will not describe the almost 1,500 years of Muslim imperialistic, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war to the east of Arabia in Iraq, Persia, and much further eastward, which continues to this day.

In any event, because it was the closest geographically, Palestine was the first Western non-Arab area invaded in the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others. At the time, Palestine was under the rule of the so-called Eastern Roman Empire, ruled from Istanbul by Greek speaking people, and was Eastern Orthodox Catholic. The Eastern Orthodox rule was despotic and the Eastern Roman Empire was in serious decline. The Eastern Orthodox rulers were despots, and in Palestine had subjugated the large population of local Jews and Monophysite Christians. Because the Orthodox were imperialist, colonialist, and bloody, and majored in religious persecution to boot, the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of Palestine, and then Egypt, was made easier. Because of Orthodox weakness and the relative speed of the conquest of Palestine and Israel, I have often seen this Muslim, imperialist, colonialist bloody conquest described by Muslim and PC writers as "peaceful" or "bloodless." This statement is simply not true.

The Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of Palestine began with a battle, the August 20, 636, battle of Yarmk (it is believed that 75,000 soldiers took part -- hardly bloodless). With the help of the local Jews who welcomed the Muslims as liberators, the Muslims had subjugated the remainder of Palestine but had not been able to capture Jerusalem. Beginning in July 637, the Muslims began a siege of Jerusalem which lasted for five (hardly bloodless) months before Jerusalem fell in February 638. Arabs did not sack the city, and the Arab soldiers were apparently kept in tight control by their leaders. No destruction was permitted. This was indeed a triumph of civilized control, if imperialism, colonization, and bloody conquest can ever be said to be "civilized." It was at this conquest that many significant hallmarks of Muslim colonialism began. The conquered Christian and Jewish people were made to pay a tribute to the colonialist Muslims. In addition, Baghdad used the imperialist, colonialist, bloody wars of conquest throughout the life of its empire to provide the Caliphate with a steady stream of slaves, many of whom were made eunuchs.

The Muslim conquest of (Christian) North Africa went relatively easily until the native peoples of North Africa (most importantly the Berbers) were encountered west of Egypt. The North African people fought so strongly against the Muslims that the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest in the west was brought to an almost complete stop between Tripoli and Carthage for more than a quarter century. The Muslims broke through in a series of bloody battles followed by bloody (revenge) massacres of the Muslim's (largely Christian) opponents. This Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest continued through North Africa and through what is now Spain, Portugal, and southern France, until they were stopped at the battle of Poiters (hardly bloodless) in the middle of France.

I believe that if I had the time, I could show that the Muslims, in their western imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquests, killed two to three times as many Christians as the Christians killed Muslims in all of the Crusades combined.

But let us return to Jerusalem.>>>>> more at link...

jimnyc

04-16-2019, 04:19 PM

A couple more pieces of good news. Irreplaceable items!

--

Hero Priest Saved Crown of Thorns

Jean-Marc Fournier, chaplain of the Paris Fire Brigade, is being hailed as a hero after he rushed in the blazing Notre Dame cathedral to save Jesus Christ’s Crown of Thorns.

As emergency workers formed a “human chain” to pull out historic relics, he also was able to save the Blessed Sacrament.

Rest - https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/priest-hero-jesus-crown/2019/04/16/id/911936/

Notre Dame's Medieval Rose Windows Survive Blaze

The three famous Rose windows of the Notre Dame cathedral have been saved from the first that took down the spre, the Archbishop of Paris said, CNN reports.

The trio of huge, round stained-glass windows over the cathedral's three main entrance doors date to the 13th century.

The cathedral’s website boasts that its three rose windows “constitute one of the great masterpieces of Christianity,” according to The Washington Post.

https://www.newsmax.com/headline/fire-notre-dame-cathedral-rose-windows/2019/04/16/id/911906/

Kathianne

04-16-2019, 06:46 PM

Pretty much same picture as above, after the embers are out and the smoke cleared.

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/57503688_10157351533808255_6815711545079627776_n.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=e367f4c745ed506b562b3421319679d7&oe=5D2E4ACC

LongTermGuy

04-16-2019, 07:37 PM

1,400 Years of Christian/Islamic Struggle: An Analysis

Religion and Cults
Richard C. Csaplar, Jr.

I was very disappointed to see that U.S. News would publish a clearly false article, adopting the world's clearly false, politically correct (PC) view of the place of the Crusades in history. What makes it even worse, the article hides its views under the additional headline falsehood, "The Truth About the Epic Clash Between Christianity and Islam."

Let me explain.

The opening heading states, "During the Crusades, East and West first met." This is just totally in error, as any person with the slightest knowledge of history well knows. East and West had been fighting for at least 1,500 years before the first Crusade.

To give just a few examples -- the Persians invaded Europe in an attempt to conquer the Greeks in the fifth century B.C. The Greek, Alexander the Great, attempted to conquer all of Asia, as far as India, in the fourth century B.C. Both the Persians of the east and the Greeks of the west set up colonial empires founded upon bloody military conquest. The Romans established by bloody military conquest colonies in Mesopotamia, northwestern Arabia, and Assyria in the second century A.D.

A different type of bloody conquest occurred through the movement of whole tribal groups between the east and the west. Again, just to name a few, the Huns, the Goths, and the Avars came from as far away as western Asia, central Asia, and China respectively in the fifth through the seventh centuries A.D. Indeed, the Avars from northern China and Mongolia were besieging Constantinople in 626 A.D., at the very moment Mohammed was a merchant in Arabia. Indeed, the Avars, by this siege, were one of the forces that weakened the Byzantines (there were many other, perhaps more important, forces) to the extent that most of the Byzantine mid-eastern empire fell relatively easily to the Muslims.

But let's give the writer the benefit of the doubt and say that the author meant that "During the Crusades, Islam and Christianity first met." This, of course, is also totally false.

Let us review the Muslim conquest. In 624, Mohammed led a raid for booty and plunder against a Meccan caravan, killing 70 Meccans for mere material gain. Between 630 A.D. and the death of Mohammed in 632 A.D., Muslims -- on at least one occasion led by Mohammed -- had conquered the bulk of western Arabia and southern Palestine through approximately a dozen separate invasions and bloody conquests. These conquests were in large part "Holy wars," putting the lie to another statement in the U.S. News article that proclaimed the Crusades "The First Holy War," as if the Christians had invented the concept of a holy war. After Mohammed's death in 632, the new Muslim caliph, Abu Bakr, launched Islam into almost 1,500 years of continual imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war, a role Islam continues to this very day.

You will note the string of adjectives and may have some objection to my using them. They are used because they are the absolute truth. Anyone denying them is a victim of PC thinking, ignorant of history, or lying to protect Islam. Let us take each word separately before we proceed further in our true history of the relationship between the Christian west and the Islamic east.

Imperialistic

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

Colonialist

The Muslim goal was to have a central government, first at Damascus, and then at Baghdad -- later at Cairo, Istanbul, or other imperial centers. The local governors, judges, and other rulers were appointed by the central imperial authorities for far off colonies. Islamic law was introduced as the senior law, whether or not wanted by the local people. Arabic was introduced as the rulers' language, and the local language frequently disappeared. Two classes of residents were established. The native residents paid a tax that their colonialist rulers did not have to pay.

Although the law differed in different places, the following are examples of colonialist laws to which colonized Christians and Jews were made subject to over the years:

Christians and Jews could not bear arms -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews could not ride horses -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to get permission to build -- Muslims did not;
Christians and Jews had to pay certain taxes which Muslims did not;
Christians could not proselytize -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to bow to their Muslim masters when they paid their taxes; and
Christians and Jews had to live under the law set forth in the Koran, not under either their own religious or secular law.
In each case, these laws allowed the local conquered people less freedom than was allowed the conquering colonialist rulers. Even non-Arab Muslim inhabitants of the conquered lands became second class citizens behind the ruling Arabs. This is the classic definition of colonialist -- "a group of people who settle in a distant territory from the state having jurisdiction or control over it and who remain under the political jurisdiction of their native land."

We will talk about "bloody" as we proceed. Because the U.S. News article related only to the Christian west against the Muslim east, except in this paragraph I will not describe the almost 1,500 years of Muslim imperialistic, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war to the east of Arabia in Iraq, Persia, and much further eastward, which continues to this day.

In any event, because it was the closest geographically, Palestine was the first Western non-Arab area invaded in the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others. At the time, Palestine was under the rule of the so-called Eastern Roman Empire, ruled from Istanbul by Greek speaking people, and was Eastern Orthodox Catholic. The Eastern Orthodox rule was despotic and the Eastern Roman Empire was in serious decline. The Eastern Orthodox rulers were despots, and in Palestine had subjugated the large population of local Jews and Monophysite Christians. Because the Orthodox were imperialist, colonialist, and bloody, and majored in religious persecution to boot, the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of Palestine, and then Egypt, was made easier. Because of Orthodox weakness and the relative speed of the conquest of Palestine and Israel, I have often seen this Muslim, imperialist, colonialist bloody conquest described by Muslim and PC writers as "peaceful" or "bloodless." This statement is simply not true.

The Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of Palestine began with a battle, the August 20, 636, battle of Yarmk (it is believed that 75,000 soldiers took part -- hardly bloodless). With the help of the local Jews who welcomed the Muslims as liberators, the Muslims had subjugated the remainder of Palestine but had not been able to capture Jerusalem. Beginning in July 637, the Muslims began a siege of Jerusalem which lasted for five (hardly bloodless) months before Jerusalem fell in February 638. Arabs did not sack the city, and the Arab soldiers were apparently kept in tight control by their leaders. No destruction was permitted. This was indeed a triumph of civilized control, if imperialism, colonization, and bloody conquest can ever be said to be "civilized." It was at this conquest that many significant hallmarks of Muslim colonialism began. The conquered Christian and Jewish people were made to pay a tribute to the colonialist Muslims. In addition, Baghdad used the imperialist, colonialist, bloody wars of conquest throughout the life of its empire to provide the Caliphate with a steady stream of slaves, many of whom were made eunuchs.

The Muslim conquest of (Christian) North Africa went relatively easily until the native peoples of North Africa (most importantly the Berbers) were encountered west of Egypt. The North African people fought so strongly against the Muslims that the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest in the west was brought to an almost complete stop between Tripoli and Carthage for more than a quarter century. The Muslims broke through in a series of bloody battles followed by bloody (revenge) massacres of the Muslim's (largely Christian) opponents. This Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest continued through North Africa and through what is now Spain, Portugal, and southern France, until they were stopped at the battle of Poiters (hardly bloodless) in the middle of France.

I believe that if I had the time, I could show that the Muslims, in their western imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquests, killed two to three times as many Christians as the Christians killed Muslims in all of the Crusades combined.

But let us return to Jerusalem.>>>>> more at link...

Liberals...love their muslims.....(even if they are `gay`)....Gotta push the "Liberal" agenda.

"Shep Smith (Fox News outsider) Shuts Down Guest Who Suggests Notre Dame Fire Might Not Be Accidental"

https://s2.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/bAKIaDPMmwqRbPGHPMx4Bg--/YXBwaWQ9eW15O3c9NjE4O3E9NzU7c209MQ--/https://media-mbst-pub-ue1.s3.amazonaws.com/creatr-uploaded-images/2019-04/c88acf40-5fcf-11e9-bb77-55c0faf8072a
"A Fox News on-air interview about the Notre Dame fire in Paris was abruptly shut down after a French guest suggested — without any proof — that the fire consuming the famed cathedral may not have been the result of an accident.

On Monday, Philippe Karsenty, a former French right-wing political candidate, suggested to Shep Smith that the church fire may have been set by possible terrorists, a theory that had already been floated by InfoWars (https://www.infowars.com/notre-dame-cathedral-in-paris-on-fire-worker-claims-it-was-deliberately-started/) soon after the fire began."

***
"“It’s like a 9/11, it’s a French 9/11, you know? And it’s a big shock,” Karsenty told Smith, adding, >>>“we’ve had churches desecrated each and every week all over France.”

Karsenty then went on to say that “of course, you will hear the story of the political correctness which will tell you it’s probably an accident.”

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/shep-smith-shuts-down-guest-212243151.html

LongTermGuy

04-16-2019, 08:07 PM

"Don’t Say Arson! Media Focuses on Right-Wing in Notre Dame Inferno"

"Yeah, it’s as fascinating a case study as almost everything is these days with the Drive-By Media, the media left, the media-Democrat complex.

The Notre Dame Cathedral fire. It is simply unacceptable. It is not tolerable. You must not even breathe the possibility of arson because if it’s arson then fingers will point in one direction, and we’re not gonna point in that direction. We’re not gonna permit fingers to point.

We’re not gonna even allow thoughts in that direction. No, no, no, no, my friends."

But let’s play the game just to start for just a second here. Even if the Notre Dame fire was not arson, there is no denying that attacks on churches, churches throughout France, throughout Europe, are on the upswing. I’m gonna tell you something, folks.

This is just me. But watching those pictures yesterday as that cathedral was burning throughout the afternoon into the evening, watching all that I thought I was looking at what may well be a symbolism for all of Europe going up in flames.
This is simply head-in-the-sand denial, to refuse to openly accept what is happening throughout France and throughout Europe.

And the very idea that there is this concerted effort coupled with a demand to ignore all of this in my nature is all I need to believe that maybe there are some things going on that everybody knows and some just will not admit and will not permit discussion of.

Because there is no denying that attacks on churches in France and all over Europe are on the upswing. It’s undeniable. It’s not all arson. Not random arson. And everybody knows this."

The story becomes the right-wing reaction to the burning of Notre Dame, not the burning of Notre Dame. You see how this happens?

And so throughout the Drive-By Media today there are stories on all of the supposed lamebrain, Looney Toon conspiracy theories out there to explain this rather than an open and honest, factual presentation of what the heck might have happened.

No, no. It is already established, and you can’t challenge it that this was arson started by somebody who flicked a cigarette. Even though no official investigation has even begun nor been announced, nor the conclusions released.
>>>Oh. And also part of the story is making fun of Donald Trump and his reaction to the fire. So you see, folks, whatever the story in the Drive-By Media, the story is either going to be how bad it is for the right or how crazy and conspiracy oriented the right is.....

Now, we’re supposed to accept the word of the French authorities who say they know for a fact the fire was accidental, even though they have not even begun to investigate its cause.

By the way, it’s not the first church fire in France. This is not the first event of this kind in France. Certain neighborhoods in Paris are now off-limits to the cops.

You can’t even go there. Not supposed to go there. But we’re not supposed to tie any of what we know even as a possibility in a list of things that might explain this. Can’t even go there."

MUCH MORE:

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2019/04/16/drive-bys-dont-dare-speculate-arson-in-symbolic-notre-dame-fire/

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/APP-BREITBART-TEARAWAY-041619.jpg

"I mean, this is happening all over the country. It’s happening all over Paris. But but but but, no, no, no, no. Uh, uh, we’re not gonna admit it, acknowledge it, we don’t want anybody to know about any of that.

Why? Who are we afraid of offending? Why are we afraid of offending? What are we afraid of discovering? Why are we afraid of discovering it?"

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/ZZ-APP-Rush-EIB-005.jpg

High_Plains_Drifter

04-17-2019, 01:43 AM

Don't kid yourself people.... don't PC yourself... this fire didn't start by itself.

THINK.

Noir

04-17-2019, 08:46 AM

How fascinating and unsurprising.

Fire chief risks his life to inspect fires and he’s hounded by conspiracy theorists as being a Muslim/Globalist actor. How fascinating and unsurprising.

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 08:51 AM

No lefties want to discuss this. The news media doesn't want to discuss this. And the politicians are afraid to discuss this. And yet, the facts and reality continue.

I don't think the church burning was terrorism - yet. I've seen no evidence of such. But it DOES bring all the damage to so many over the past few years into the discussion, or at least it should.

Most want to ignore the carnage being done to christians by islam. And of course that leads to ignoring attacks on places of worship. I think I read that there were 875 churches attacked/vandalized last year.

---

Diabolical: Islam’s Past and Present Attacks on European Churches

As explained in this recent article, all around Western Europe, churches are under attack. Along with arson attempts, typically—and rather with diabolical intent—altars are desecrated, crucifixes broken, statues mocked and/or beheaded, and the churches set aflame.

Sometimes fecal matter is smeared on the churches. Last February in France, for instance, vandals plundered and used human excrement to draw a cross on the Notre-Dame des Enfants Church in Nimes; consecrated bread was found thrown outside among garbage. One week later, vandals desecrated and smashed crosses and statues at Saint-Alain Cathedral in Lavaur; they mangled the arms of a crucified Christ in a mocking manner and an altar cloth was burned.

While European authorities and media usually obfuscate over the identity of the desecrators, demographics offer a clue: true to “Islam’s Rule of Numbers,” Western European nations that have large Muslim migrant populations tend to witness the most attacks.

Rest - https://pjmedia.com/faith/diabolical-islams-past-and-present-attacks-on-european-churches/

European Churches: Vandalized, Defecated On, and Torched "Every Day"

In Germany, four separate churches were vandalized and/or torched in March alone. "In this country," PI-News, a German news site, explained, "there is a creeping war against everything that symbolizes Christianity: attacks on mountain-summit crosses, on sacred statues by the wayside, on churches... and recently also on cemeteries."

In virtually every instance of church attacks, authorities and media obfuscate the identity of the vandals. In those rare instances when the Muslim (or "migrant") identity of the destroyers is leaked, the desecraters are then presented as suffering from mental health issues.

"Hardly anyone writes and speaks about the increasing attacks on Christian symbols. There is an eloquent silence in both France and Germany about the scandal of the desecrations and the origin of the perpetrators.... Not a word, not even the slightest hint that could in anyway lead to the suspicion of migrants... It is not the perpetrators who are in danger of being ostracized, but those who dare to associate the desecration of Christian symbols with immigrant imports. They are accused of hatred, hate speech and racism." -- PI News, March 24, 2019

Countless churches throughout Western Europe are being vandalized, defecated on, and torched.

In France, two churches are desecrated every day on average. According to PI-News, a German news site, 1,063 attacks on Christian churches or symbols (crucifixes, icons, statues) were registered in France in 2018. This represents a 17% increase compared to the previous year (2017), when 878 attacks were registered — meaning that such attacks are only going from bad to worse.

Rest - https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14044/europe-churches-vandalized

found that article...

875 Catholic Churches in France Were Vandalized in 2018 by Radical Secularists and Muslims

For over 850 years, Notre-Dame de Paris survived the French Revolution, two world wars, terror threats and pollution.

But on Monday the historic Notre Dame Cathedral was engulfed in flames and nearly destroyed.

It is not yet clear how the fire at Notre Dame started. French officials have not said it was due to arson.

But what is clear is that hundreds of French churches have come under attack in the just the last year.

Rest - https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/04/875-catholic-churches-in-france-were-vandalized-in-2018-by-radical-secularists-and-muslims/

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 08:53 AM

Fire chief risks his life to inspect fires and he’s hounded by conspiracy theorists as being a Muslim/Globalist actor. How fascinating and unsurprising.

And yet there have been endless attacks on christians and their churches. You will ALWAYS find a way to condemn christianity, and often when its Abbey. But ignore the carnage done to them.

Not fascinating and definitely not surprising from you.

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 08:54 AM

How fascinating and unsurprising.

Be careful when you comment, as a little birdie is obsessed with you, and will find your little posts among others that have written 50x more, in order to teach you lessons! :laugh:

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 09:02 AM

Donations are at $995 billion dollars US last I saw this morning. Folks like to think that christians and the like are going by the wayside. But more like conservatives in politics - just no need to be big mouths like the other side, and like to keep to themselves and things closer to the vest.

But as you see by the instant outpouring, we/they are here. The love is there. The help and prayers from around the world are there. And while 5 years may be a tad too much to expect, Notre Dame will be back. And I KNOW for sure that it irritates some to see how the bond works within christianity.

---

Donations Reach €1Bn to Rebuild Notre-Dame Which Was ’30 Minutes’ Away from Total Destruction

Donations from the wealthy and the faithful are set to surpass €1 billion on Wednesday, as French authorities revealed that firefighters were just 15 to 30 minutes away from losing the battle to save Notre-Dame de Paris.
The largest donations have so far come from billionaire businessmen and companies such as Apple, Dior, Chanel, L’Oreal, the owner of the media group which owns Le Parisien newspaper, and luxury goods company Kering which owns Gucci and Yves Saint Laurent, reports The Telegraph.

“We are at about 900 million euros and the one billion mark will be exceeded today,” journalist Stéphane Bern told franceinfo.

The outpouring of support from philanthropists and Catholics from around the world comes as French President Emmanuel Macron pledged that Our Lady of Paris, the church of France, will be rebuilt in five years and “even more beautifully” than before.

It was revealed Tuesday night that the twelfth-century gothic House of God was just 15 to 30 minutes away from destruction as some 400 firefighters battled to stop the blaze that took more than ten hours to extinguish.

Junior interior minister Laurent Nunez told media that it was down to just 20 firemen who fought to stop the fire spreading to the two west-facing wooden-framed belfry towers, as senior firefighters feared if they caught alight and fell, it would bring the whole structure down.

Rest - https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/17/donations-reach-e1bn-to-rebuild-notre-dame-which-was-30-minutes-away-from-total-destruction/

Noir

04-17-2019, 09:30 AM

And yet there have been endless attacks on christians and their churches. You will ALWAYS find a way to condemn christianity, and often when its Abbey. But ignore the carnage done to them.

Not fascinating and definitely not surprising from you.

As with all things (though it’s sad it needs stated) I am against attacks or destruction etc, if you happen to see any story about a church being burnt down, or a congregation being attacked then rest assured that I oppose such arson and attacks.

Be careful when you comment, as a little birdie is obsessed with you, and will find your little posts among others that have written 50x more, in order to teach you lessons! :laugh:

There are only a few posters like abbey, yourself, darin, kathianne etc that it’s possible to have any sort of dialogue with. So I would be sure that my replies are greatly skewed towards only a handful of posters - but regardless of that if it is believed by Abbey as your post implies that I respond to her too much then I will gladly greatly reduce future replies.

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 09:36 AM

As with all things (though it’s sad it needs stated) I am against attacks or destruction etc, if you happen to see any story about a church being burnt down, or a congregation being attacked then rest assured that I oppose such arson and attacks.

There are only a few posters like abbey, yourself, darin, kathianne etc that it’s possible to have any sort of dialogue with. So I would be sure that my replies are greatly skewed towards only a handful of posters - but regardless of that if it is believed by Abbey as your post implies that I respond to her too much then I will gladly greatly reduce future replies.

Don't act sly, it has nothing to do with the amount of replies, to anyone for that fact. More like you like to take little digs at her christianity stuff, which "I" believe started moons ago with her and a quote she used. She can speak for herself. NONE of what I say has to do with me and her talking about anything, so I may be way off base as to how SHE feels. I'm just expressing my opinion from an outsiders viewpoint.

So should I just say that I don't like people who break the law, do "wrongdoing", or take advantage of the government or the people.... and therefore don't worry about me EVER condemning anything the right does, just rest assured that IF they do anything remotely improper, that I oppose it. That would make for odd discussion boards, where folks only discuss something one time, and never again as now people should know their stance. That would lead to less and less discussion and more and more assumptions. I prefer to look at each event individually, as often the facts of something change, which of course can alter one's opinion of whatever took place. But, that's just me I guess. :dunno:

Abbey Marie

04-17-2019, 10:34 AM

Fire chief risks his life to inspect fires and he’s hounded by conspiracy theorists as being a Muslim/Globalist actor. How fascinating and unsurprising.

And your response, while not quite fascinating, is also unsurprising.

ETA: Just saw Jim responded almost the exact way.

:coffee:

Abbey Marie

04-17-2019, 10:47 AM

12000

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-17-2019, 10:52 AM

12000

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14044/europe-churches-vandalized

European Churches: Vandalized, Defecated On, and Torched "Every Day"
by Raymond Ibrahim
April 14, 2019 at 5:00 am

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14044/europe-churches-vandalized

In Germany, four separate churches were vandalized and/or torched in March alone. "In this country," PI-News, a German news site, explained, "there is a creeping war against everything that symbolizes Christianity: attacks on mountain-summit crosses, on sacred statues by the wayside, on churches... and recently also on cemeteries."

In virtually every instance of church attacks, authorities and media obfuscate the identity of the vandals. In those rare instances when the Muslim (or "migrant") identity of the destroyers is leaked, the desecraters are then presented as suffering from mental health issues.

"Hardly anyone writes and speaks about the increasing attacks on Christian symbols. There is an eloquent silence in both France and Germany about the scandal of the desecrations and the origin of the perpetrators.... Not a word, not even the slightest hint that could in anyway lead to the suspicion of migrants... It is not the perpetrators who are in danger of being ostracized, but those who dare to associate the desecration of Christian symbols with immigrant imports. They are accused of hatred, hate speech and racism." -- PI News, March 24, 2019

In February, vandals desecrated and smashed crosses and statues at Saint-Alain Cathedral in Lavaur, France, and mangled the arms of a statue of a crucified Christ in a mocking manner. In addition, an altar cloth was burned. (Image source: Eutrope/Wikimedia Commons)

Countless churches throughout Western Europe are being vandalized, defecated on, and torched.

In France, two churches are desecrated every day on average. According to PI-News, a German news site, 1,063 attacks on Christian churches or symbols (crucifixes, icons, statues) were registered in France in 2018. This represents a 17% increase compared to the previous year (2017), when 878 attacks were registered — meaning that such attacks are only going from bad to worse.

Among some of the recent desecrations in France, the following took place in just February and March:

Vandals plundered Notre-Dame des Enfants Church in Nîmes and used human excrement to draw a cross there; consecrated bread was found thrown outside among garbage.
The Saint-Nicolas Church in Houilles was vandalized on three separate occasions in February; a 19th century statue of the Virgin Mary, regarded as "irreparable," was "completely pulverized," said a clergyman; and a hanging cross was thrown to the floor.
Vandals desecrated and smashed crosses and statues at Saint-Alain Cathedral in Lavaur, and mangled the arms of a statue of a crucified Christ in a mocking manner. In addition, an altar cloth was burned.
Arsonists torched the Church of St. Sulpice in Paris soon after midday mass on Sunday, March 17.
Similar reports are coming out of Germany. Four separate churches were vandalized and/or torched in March alone. "In this country," PI-News explained, "there is a creeping war against everything that symbolizes Christianity: attacks on mountain-summit crosses, on sacred statues by the wayside, on churches... and recently also on cemeteries."

Who is primarily behind these ongoing and increasing attacks on churches in Europe? The same German report offers a hint: "Crosses are broken, altars smashed, Bibles set on fire, baptismal fonts overturned, and the church doors smeared with Islamic expressions like 'Allahu Akbar.'"

Another German report from November 11, 2017 noted that in the Alps and Bavaria alone, around 200 churches were attacked and many crosses broken: "Police are currently dealing with church desecrations again and again. The perpetrators are often youthful rioters with a migration background." Elsewhere they are described as "young Islamists."

Sometimes, sadly, in European regions with large Muslim populations, there seems to be a concomitant rise in attacks on churches and Christian symbols. Before Christmas 2016, in the North Rhine-Westphalia region of Germany, where more than a million Muslims reside, some 50 public Christian statues (including those of Jesus) were beheaded and crucifixes broken.

In 2016, following the arrival in Germany of another million mostly Muslim migrants, a local newspaper reported that in the town of Dülmen, "'not a day goes by' without attacks on religious statues in the town of less than 50,000 people, and the immediate surrounding area."

In France it also seems that where the number of Muslim migrants increases, so do attacks on churches. A January 2017 study revealed that, "Islamist extremist attacks on Christians" in France rose by 38 percent, going from 273 attacks in 2015 to 376 in 2016; the majority occurred during Christmas season and "many of the attacks took place in churches and other places of worship."

As a typical example, in 2014, a Muslim man committed "major acts of vandalism" inside a historic Catholic church in Thonon-les-Bains. According to a report (with pictures) he "overturned and broke two altars, the candelabras and lecterns, destroyed statues, tore down a tabernacle, twisted a massive bronze cross, smashed in a sacristy door and even broke some stained-glass windows." He also "trampled on" the Eucharist.

For similar examples in other European countries, please see here, here, here, here, and here.

In virtually every instance of church attacks, authorities and media obfuscate the identity of the vandals. In those rare instances when the Muslim (or "migrant") identity of the destroyers is leaked, the perpetrators are then presented as suffering from mental health issues. As the recent PI-News report says:

"Hardly anyone writes and speaks about the increasing attacks on Christian symbols. There is an eloquent silence in both France and Germany about the scandal of the desecrations and the origin of the perpetrators.... Not a word, not even the slightest hint that could in anyway lead to the suspicion of migrants... It is not the perpetrators who are in danger of being ostracized, but those who dare to associate the desecration of Christian symbols with immigrant imports. They are accused of hatred, hate speech and racism."

Raymond Ibrahim, author of the new book, Sword and Scimitar, Fourteen Centuries of War between Islam and the West, is a Distinguished Senior Fellow at the Gatestone Institute and a Judith Rosen Friedman Fellow at the Middle East Forum.

Abbey Marie

04-17-2019, 11:05 AM

I’ll tell you who is actually behind these desecrations.
Satan.
He uses people to carry out his anti-Christ agenda.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-17-2019, 11:09 AM

I’ll tell you who is actually behind these desecrations.
Satan.
He uses people to carry out his anti-Christ agenda.

Islam represents Satan more than any other group on this planet, IMHO.
Right done to child molestation, women raping/abusing-dehumanizing, murder, torture, belief that man can save himself by way of abject brutality and enslavement of all mankind..-Tyr

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-17-2019, 11:17 AM

What France will need to control the muslim scourge sometime in the future, IMHO..-Tyr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI4Z7Dq6Q1g

STTAB

04-17-2019, 11:23 AM

Don't act sly, it has nothing to do with the amount of replies, to anyone for that fact. More like you like to take little digs at her christianity stuff, which "I" believe started moons ago with her and a quote she used. She can speak for herself. NONE of what I say has to do with me and her talking about anything, so I may be way off base as to how SHE feels. I'm just expressing my opinion from an outsiders viewpoint.

So should I just say that I don't like people who break the law, do "wrongdoing", or take advantage of the government or the people.... and therefore don't worry about me EVER condemning anything the right does, just rest assured that IF they do anything remotely improper, that I oppose it. That would make for odd discussion boards, where folks only discuss something one time, and never again as now people should know their stance. That would lead to less and less discussion and more and more assumptions. I prefer to look at each event individually, as often the facts of something change, which of course can alter one's opinion of whatever took place. But, that's just me I guess. :dunno:

That's a favored tactic of the left Jim. They do it with Trump ALL the time. He/you/we must individually condemn each and very bad action or comment made by someone on the right or he/you/we obviously supports those words/actions . Meanwhile , of course,, the left is held to another standard. They are just better people than us and therefor they don't have to condemn every bad act individually in order to signify that they oppose that action.

High_Plains_Drifter

04-17-2019, 11:36 AM

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 01:01 PM

Yesterday, I read an article about how investigators were still having trouble getting inside in order to find out exactly what happened. And in the same breath they are ruling out arson? So so many being afraid to even mutter terrorism or arson as a possibility. New stations mostly even won't mention or entertain the possibility. God forbid they insult them in any way. :rolleyes:

---

Why Were Authorities so Quick to Rule out Arson in the Notre Dame Conflagration?

I feel I must hand it to those stalwart souls investigating the devastating conflagration at the Cathedral of Notre Dame Monday. The flames were not quenched at the 12th-century masterpiece of Gothic architecture when the authorities announced that they had ruled out arson as the cause of the blaze. (Some reports hedged their bets by adding “for now”; most were more apodictic.)

That was an extraordinary, not to say amazing, piece of forensic prognostication. Not only were the flames still lapping at the timbers of the cathedral when this conclusion was announced, but also think about the context. The fire broke out on Monday of Holy Week, the apex of the Christian religious calendar. For Catholics, Notre Dame is a focal point of what remains of the religion in a country besotted for decades by its adherence to “laïcité,” to aggressive secularism. For France generally, however, I suspect that the important thing is that Notre Dame is home to some 13 million tourists per annum, all armed with fist-fulls of dollars, euros, and yen.

In any event, the holocaust at Notre Dame was by no means unique. Last month, a fire broke out at Saint-Sulpice, the second largest church in Paris. Within a day or two, the authorities had determined that the fire had been deliberately set. You didn’t read about it in The New York Times, but what happened at Saint-Sulpice was only one of the most destructive acts of vandalism directed against Christian churches in France.

Rest - https://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/why-were-authorities-so-quick-to-rule-out-arson-in-the-notre-dame-conflagration/

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 01:27 PM

There are only a few posters like abbey, yourself, darin, kathianne etc that it’s possible to have any sort of dialogue with. So I would be sure that my replies are greatly skewed towards only a handful of posters - but regardless of that if it is believed by Abbey as your post implies that I respond to her too much then I will gladly greatly reduce future replies.

Just wanted to reply again and make myself clear. No one, especially me, is asking you to cut down your posts with anyone. I gave my own opinion from my own point of view. I was not aware that you were only willing to discuss/debate things with a handful, for which I'm sure you have your reasons. And my response truly wasn't complaining about any volume of posts you make, whether overall or towards Abbey. That wasn't my intent if you reread my posts. I was speaking of what "I" thought I noticed over a period of time - which seemed like your responses towards her in regards to Christianity. That alone was fairly normal, we're here to discuss and debate. But to "me" it seemed like you would ignore some responses to others at the same time. Or not condemning things of other religions equally.

I'll say this - it's what I thought I noticed over time. If wrong, you have my apologies. Either way, it should change with whom you post or how much.

And overall in general, what I mentioned already, with it appearing to me that you find time to condemn things about christianity, but would quite often look past many wrongdoings from others. That's in general, and to me seems to be par for the course for many on the left. Islam seemingly gets a free pass for their horrific actions.

Ok, blabbing is over, just trying to explain myself or my intent or what I thought I saw.

icansayit

04-17-2019, 02:30 PM

As for how the fire started. Let's just allow the investigation to continue. It was a sad day for the entire World.

http://icansayit.com/img/april 15th history.jpg

Abbey Marie

04-17-2019, 04:13 PM

Just wanted to reply again and make myself clear. No one, especially me, is asking you to cut down your posts with anyone. I gave my own opinion from my own point of view. I was not aware that you were only willing to discuss/debate things with a handful, for which I'm sure you have your reasons. And my response truly wasn't complaining about any volume of posts you make, whether overall or towards Abbey. That wasn't my intent if you reread my posts. I was speaking of what "I" thought I noticed over a period of time - which seemed like your responses towards her in regards to Christianity. That alone was fairly normal, we're here to discuss and debate. But to "me" it seemed like you would ignore some responses to others at the same time. Or not condemning things of other religions equally.

I'll say this - it's what I thought I noticed over time. If wrong, you have my apologies. Either way, it should change with whom you post or how much.

And overall in general, what I mentioned already, with it appearing to me that you find time to condemn things about christianity, but would quite often look past many wrongdoings from others. That's in general, and to me seems to be par for the course for many on the left. Islam seemingly gets a free pass for their horrific actions.

Ok, blabbing is over, just trying to explain myself or my intent or what I thought I saw.

No, you are right. Noir does sort of target me. l’m not sure exactly why, but the first thing that comes to mind is that he does not respect me. That’s not a problem, as I totally respect myself and my faith is not that shakeable.
I have confidence in my debating abilities (law school will hone that), but I am not one to get rough, as you know.
And as you’ve said, you and I have not discussed this.

I still think the French authorities are putting out a false narrative. Perhaps for much the same reasons they let all these Muslims in in the first place. Time may tell.

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 04:42 PM

No, you are right. Noir does sort of target me. l’m not sure exactly why, but the first thing that comes to mind is that he does not respect me. That’s not a problem, as I totally respect myself and my faith is not that shakeable.
I have confidence in my debating abilities (law school will hone that), but I am not one to get rough, as you know.
And as you’ve said, you and I have not discussed this.

I still think the French authorities are putting out a false narrative. Perhaps for much the same reasons they let all these Muslims in in the first place. Time may tell.

Hell, I don't think I have the respect but for a handful of members over the years! :coffee: Comes with the territory of being an admin & having a strong opinion & yeah, kinda being an asshole at times.

Now you, I see as the opposite almost. You have the respect of so many members, still an admin... and while you have strong opinions as well, you have always posted 'professionally' & respectfully. And yep, you're not one to get rough, you have the rare ability to simply walk away if someone goes over the line with you. I can't do such a thing, I have to be a you know what in return usually. :) :)

...
And now, to get us back on track...

I think the narrative was completely rushed and any talk of terrorism or muslims were stomped on, before they even had a chance to find out what really happened.

With that said, I've really seen no evidence as of yet for this to be being anything other than accident during renovations.

And then again, depending on the size of the work area, how many employees and how much confusion was going on - it may not have been a difficult for someone to simply light a fire. But again, no evidence thus far. But it will be suspect until 100% confirmed. Islam themselves and the threats ensure that.

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 05:39 PM

ISIS fanatics warn of a future attack on fire-ravaged Notre Dame in online poster depicting the cathedral up in flames once more

---A jihadist media group published the image next to a warning: 'Wait for the next'
---Paris investigators believe the Notre Dame fire was an accident, not an attack
---But ISIS extremists have revelled in the damage to a symbol of Western culture

Jihadists linked to ISIS have shared a menacing image of Notre Dame in flames once more, warning: 'Wait for the next'.

The extremist media group published the graphic showing flames in front of the Paris cathedral's bell towers, which survived Monday's blaze.

There is no indication that the fire was linked to terror but ISIS fanatics have revelled in the damage to the 850-year-old landmark, a symbol of Western civilisation, just days before Easter.

The latest image, revealed by terror monitors SITE intelligence, hints at a possible deliberate attack by ISIS-aligned militants in the future.

https://i.imgur.com/aDDOxmw.png

As the church burned on Monday night the ISIS-linked Al-Muntasir group had published a poster of the blazing cathedral accompanied by the words: 'Have a good day'.

Al-Munatsir has previously shared propaganda rejoicing in terror attacks which have rocked France.

Rest - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6931361/ISIS-fanatics-warn-future-attack-fire-ravaged-Notre-Dame.html

jimnyc

04-17-2019, 05:42 PM

I know an image was posted earlier detailing some of this, but here's more...

---

The cruelest week: These 13 historic tragedies happened during the week of April 15

The world is still reeling after a fire broke out at the famous Notre-Dame de Paris cathedral on Monday. Images of yellow-brown smoke billowing from the roof of the historic building and video of the iconic spire, ablaze and collapsing, drew expressions of grief from Parisians and travelers alike.

Historically, the week of April 15 is no stranger to tragedy. While disaster can strike at any time, an unusual amount of misfortune seems to take place on a few inauspicious days in April. Eerie coincidence? In most cases, yes. But it leads one to wonder if a day (or a week) can simply be unlucky.

...

1. The Lincoln Assassination: April 15, 1865

Shortly after the end of the American Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln was shot in the head by John Wilkes Booth while attending a play at Ford's Theater in Washington, D.C.

Lincoln was carried to a house across the street from the theater, where he died.

Booth escaped the theater after the assassination, but was shot to death 11 days later when the 16th New York Cavalry attempted to capture him on a farm in Virginia.

2. The San Francisco Earthquake: April 18, 1906
Early in the morning of April 18, 1906, a powerful earthquake, centered on the northern California coast, shook the city of San Francisco.

After the quake, a fire broke out in the city and burned for four days and nights. Between 700 and 3,000 people were killed and over 80% of the city was destroyed. Up to 300,000 people were left homeless.

3. The Sinking of the Titanic: April 15, 1912

The passenger liner RMS Titanic sank after striking an iceberg on her maiden voyage across the Atlantic.

The ship carried only 20 lifeboats, which provided an escape for just a fraction of the estimated 2,224 passengers and crew. More than 1,500 people died in the disaster, making it one of the worst commercial maritime disasters during peacetime.

4. The Ludlow Massacre: April 20, 1914
Striking coal miners and their families were staying in a tent colony outside Ludlow, Colorado when an ongoing conflict with the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company and the Colorado National Guard turned deadly.

When a gunfight broke out between the miners and guards, the guards fired on the tent colony with a machine gun. 20 people, including 12 children, were killed.

5. The Hillsborough Disaster: April 15, 1989
Overcrowding in the standing-only central pen at Hillsborough Stadium in Sheffield, England led to a disastrous event in which 96 people were crushed to death and 766 were injured.

The central pen became dangerously crowded during an Football Association Challenge Cup semi-final match, when police failed to control the number of people coming into the area. People at the back of the pen were not aware that people near the front were being crushed as more and more fans streamed in.

Police and bystanders didn't fully realize what was happening until a near-goal caused fans in the pen to surge forward, breaking a barrier and spilling injured people onto the field.

The Hillsborough Disaster remains the UK's deadliest sporting disaster.

6. The Waco Siege ends: April 19, 1993

The Waco Siege began when members of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms attempted to raid a compound occupied by heavily-armed members of the Branch Davidian religious group.

The resulting conflict lasted several weeks and involved the ATF, the FBI, law enforcement and the US military.

At the end of the standoff, the FBI used tear gas in an attempt to flush the Branch Davidians out of the compound. Shortly after, a massive fire broke out, which resulted in the deaths of 76 people, including children.

7. The Oklahoma City Bombing: April 19, 1995
A truck loaded with ammonium nitrate fertilizer exploded outside the Alfred P. Murrah federal building in downtown Oklahoma City, killing 168 people. The blast was, at the time, the worst terror attack in United States history.

Timothy McVeigh and several co-conspirators orchestrated the attack, which McVeigh said was in retaliation to the government's handling of the siege at Waco.

McVeigh was convicted and executed by lethal injection in 2001.

8. The Columbine High School Massacre: April 20, 1999

Two students at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado shot and killed 12 students and one teacher and wounded an additional 21 people in a massacre that made the word "Columbine" synonymous with school shootings.

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold initially planned a bomb attack, but the propane bombs they planted in the school cafeteria failed to detonate.

Harris and Klebold died by suicide after exchanging gunfire with police.

More: 1 year later: How the Parkland school shooting has changed us

9. The Virginia Tech Shooting: April 16, 2007
Undergraduate student Seung-Hui Cho shot 49 people, killing 32, in the worst school shooting in United States history.

Cho shot and killed two students in a residence hall before returning to his room, changing out of his bloodstained clothes and heading to the engineering, science and mechanics building. There, he killed 30 more people before fatally shooting himself.

10. The Deepwater Horizon Disaster: April 20, 2010

The Deepwater Horizon oil drilling rig was destroyed by an explosion and subsequent fire while drilling for BP about 40 miles off the Louisiana coast. 11 workers were killed and 17 others were injured.

Following the explosion, engineers discovered a massive oil leak was spreading from the well at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico. The well continued to leak for weeks, as several containment efforts were unsuccessful. The spill caused massive ecological damage in the Gulf of Mexico and along the Gulf Coast.

11. The Boston Marathon Bombing: April 15, 2013

Terrorists detonated two bombs near the finish line at the Boston Marathon in 2013, killing three people and injuring more than 250.

Two brothers, Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev were identified as suspects. The brothers engaged police in a dramatic chase and shootout that left Tamerlan Tsarnaev and a Massachusetts Institute of Technology police officer dead, and 17 other police officers wounded.

After his arrest, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev said the brothers were influenced by extremist Islamist beliefs.

12. The West Fertilizer Company Explosion: April 17, 2013
A fire broke out at a fertilizer storage and distribution facility in the city of West, Texas, about 18 miles north of Waco. As firefighters responded, a massive ammonium nitrate explosion killed 15 people, injured 160 others and destroyed or damaged more than 150 buildings in West.

The blast was the equivalent of more than 7 tons of TNT and created a 93-foot wide crater. Windows were blown out of buildings miles away, and the explosion shook the ground with the strength of a magnitude 2.1 earthquake.

In 2016, the ATF said their investigation revealed the fire had been intentionally set.

13. The Notre Dame Cathedral Fire: April 15, 2019

A fire started in the roof of the famous Notre-Dame de Paris cathedral and spread through the structure, toppling the iconic lead and timber spire as firefighters rushed to save the irreplaceable relics and works of art from the 800-year-old church.

When the fire was finally extinguished, the cathedral's roof was almost completely burned and the structure had suffered major damage. The facade, with its distinctive towers, remained standing, though the priceless rosette window had fallen away.

The landmark cathedral was undergoing a $6.8 million renovation when the fire broke out.

Rest - https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2019/04/16/april-15-15th-cursed-unlucky-notre-dame-fire-lincoln-titanic-hillsborough-boston-marathon/3483187002/

Noir

04-18-2019, 04:53 AM

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-18-2019, 05:12 AM

Hell, I don't think I have the respect but for a handful of members over the years! :coffee: Comes with the territory of being an admin & having a strong opinion & yeah, kinda being an asshole at times.

Now you, I see as the opposite almost. You have the respect of so many members, still an admin... and while you have strong opinions as well, you have always posted 'professionally' & respectfully. And yep, you're not one to get rough, you have the rare ability to simply walk away if someone goes over the line with you. I can't do such a thing, I have to be a you know what in return usually. :) :)

...
And now, to get us back on track...

I think the narrative was completely rushed and any talk of terrorism or muslims were stomped on, before they even had a chance to find out what really happened.

With that said, I've really seen no evidence as of yet for this to be being anything other than accident during renovations.

And then again, depending on the size of the work area, how many employees and how much confusion was going on - it may not have been a difficult for someone to simply light a fire. But again, no evidence thus far. But it will be suspect until 100% confirmed. Islam themselves and the threats ensure that.

Those that do respect you also have decent morals, respect honesty, kindness and also admire your character despite its weaknesses -of which we all have., certainly myself included!
Those that do not respect you- well , best to just say fkkk them --for they are ffing trash in my opinion.
A decent man will give respect to another decent man.. Morality is to be acknowledged.
Socialists/ leftists/liberal dem trash are not decent people.. so they can go straight to hell in my book(and most likely one day will).
Since I join this board , I've had many of those worthless types attack me-- and that is how I sincerely view such deceitful, sorry-ass vermin... --Tyr

High_Plains_Drifter

04-18-2019, 06:01 AM

Not only do we have the suspicious figure in a robe and turbine walking on an exterior walk after the church was supposedly evacuated, we now have someone on the roof that does not appear to be a worker, and flashes of light are produced by this individual, no workers vest, no hard hat... who is this person and what are they doing?

http://https://twitter.com/TipsyPianoBar/status/1118687891364831232

What the french are going to do is, say this was an accident but show no proof of it. No explanation how it was started, where it was started or by whom. You'd think that someone doing something that caused a sufficient enough amount of heat to start a fire, they'd remember doing it, and that if there was some sort of maintenance being done that caused so much heat, why didn't they take precautions to prevent a fire? What's going to happen is all we will ever hear is, it was an accident, and that's it. They'll wait until the short attention span of people turns to something else and just let the story die. But we just had another nut case in NYC walk into a huge church with two five gallon gas cans and two cans of lighter fluid and two stick lighters.

No way in HELL do I believe Notre Dame was an accident. Where's the worker that admits he was doing something that caused enough heat to start a fire? What was he doing? Why hasn't anyone come forward? I've worked enough construction myself to know there just aren't that many things you'd ever be doing to cause enough heat to start a fire, especially when you're primarily working with wood. The only way you create a lot of heat is if you're working with metal, and then major precautions are taken to AVOID starting a fire. You going to try and convince me that some sort of work that caused such great heat was just gone about in a reckless enough manner without the proper precautions put in place to avoid a fire in one of the oldest, most beautiful churches in the world filled with things considered to be priceless? Nope, can't buy that theory. This fire was intentionally started, using an accelerant, and it was started by a fucking muslim, just like AAAAALLL the other very recent church fires in Paris. Yeah, Notre Dame was an ACCIDENT, but ALL the other church fires were intentionally set... ya... I'm going to believe that one... ummmm... NO.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-18-2019, 06:14 AM

Smart money is on this--- it was a muslim doing his Allah commanded duty..
Especially since so many other Christian churches there have been burned/desecrated by the muslims..
Two plus two always equals four.. -Tyr

High_Plains_Drifter

04-18-2019, 06:16 AM

High_Plains_Drifter

04-18-2019, 06:19 AM

I was not aware that you were only willing to discuss/debate things with a handful,...

Oh yeah, he ignores the majority of people here. I'm one of them. Evidently he doesn't have the balls or intellect to debate me, among many others. He just drops his pathetic little arrogant leftist psycho-babble bull shit to a select few here and then leaves.

@jimnyc (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=1)

Kathianne

04-18-2019, 06:31 AM

None of us know what happened to start the fire. One thing that we do know is the structure is over 800 years old and it's skeleton was made of wood-that is 800 years old:

http://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190415172318-01-notre-dame-wood-frame.jpg

https://fortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/gettyimages-1137438153.jpg

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/04/16/world/europe/notre-dame-cathedral-3d-1555480837243/notre-dame-cathedral-3d-1555480837243-articleLarge-v3.jpg

https://www.checkoutsam.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/fire-notre-dame-bell-tower.jpg

I certainly wouldn't discount arson/terrorism. Then again, it seems that the 'attic' was checked twice a day for many, many years. Fire has always been a concern, the wood is that old. Terror groups would be prone to claiming credit for this one, so if it were terrorism as a root cause, I doubt it was set up by a group, but rather an actor or a few.

However, until there's more evidence, I don't see any reason to argue that it is or isn't more than what is being reported. The French have been more open regarding terror attacks than most, including IMO, the U.S.

CSM

04-18-2019, 06:55 AM

I am willing to bet they will have problems finding any trees big enough to replace those beams. Old growth forests with trees that big (the size of those beams!) are rare these days.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-18-2019, 06:58 AM

CSM

04-18-2019, 07:06 AM

I was thinking the same thing when seeing those pics.
They can likely get them from Germany. As to my knowledge it still has some old growth forests with huge trees.
But costs will definitely be very high per beam., methinks.. -Tyr

I don't know about Germany. Most of Europe was pretty well devastated after two world wars including the forests. Siberia maybe? Obviously have to be hardwood like elm or oak too and a lot of it. I am not sure they could use steel or aluminum either... I am not a civil engineer so what the heck do I know.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

04-18-2019, 07:13 AM

I don't know about Germany. Most of Europe was pretty well devastated after two world wars including the forests. Siberia maybe? Obviously have to be hardwood like elm or oak too and a lot of it. I am not sure they could use steel or aluminum either... I am not a civil engineer so what the heck do I know.

You are correct. So much devastation due to heavy artillery fire but some areas still exist that were virtually untouched.
I do remember that the Hurtgen Forest was pounded very hard during the extremely bloody, Battle of the Hurtgen Forest in WW2 , -Tyr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_H%C3%BCrtgen_Forest

The Battle of Hürtgen Forest (German: Schlacht im Hürtgenwald) was a series of fierce battles fought from 19 September to 16 December 1944 between American and German forces on the Western Front during World War II in the Hürtgen Forest, a 140 km2 (54 sq mi) area about 5 km (3.1 mi) east of the Belgian–German border.[1] It was the longest battle on German ground during World War II, and is the longest single battle the U.S. Army has ever fought.[7]

Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model intended to bring the Allied thrust to a standstill. While he interfered less in the day-to-day movements of units than at the Battle of Arnhem, he still kept himself fully informed on the situation, slowing the Allies' progress, inflicting heavy casualties and taking full advantage of the fortifications the Germans called the Westwall, better known to the Allies as the Siegfried Line. The Hürtgen Forest cost the U.S. First Army at least 33,000 killed and wounded, including both combat and non-combat losses, with upper estimate at 55,000; German casualties were 28,000. The city of Aachen in the north eventually fell on 22 October at high cost to the U.S. Ninth Army, but they failed to cross the Rur or wrest control of its dams from the Germans. The battle was so costly that it has been described as an Allied "defeat of the first magnitude," with specific credit given to Model.[8][9]:391

*************************************

https://www.iucn.org/content/germany%E2%80%99s-last-wild-forests

Germany’s last wild forests
Mon, 12 Dec 2011
Ancient Beech Forests of Germany, World Heritage site

Beech forest surrounding kettle-hole mire in Serrahn, Ancient Beech Forests of Germany
Background

The European beech (Fagus sylvatica) is one of the most important forest trees in Central Europe, constituting forests that once covered 40% of Europe. The serial site Ancient Beech Forests (ABF) of Germany, which was inscribed on the World Heritage list in 2011 as an extension to the site Primeval Beech Forests (PBF) of the Carpathians, protects some of the most beautiful and pristine of these forests.

The ABF site combines five component parts in the northern half of the Federal Republic of Germany that are representative of the colline-submontane (Kellerwald, Hainich) and planar (Serrahn, Grumsin, Jasmund) altitudinal zones: Kellerwald in the land Hessen, Hainich in Thuringia, Serran and Jasmund in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania as well as Grumsin in Brandenburg.

The PBF of the Carpathians, which is a serial property as well, includes some of the oldest beech forests with the greatest amount of biodiversity because they were the first to return after the retreat of forests during the last glacial period. The five German sites are much younger than the ones in the Carpathian. They are not “primeval”, but have small (5-50 hectares) primeval segments within them that have remained free from exploitation. The German sites are the best conserved, most natural and closest to beech-dominant primary forest sites remaining in Germany and have not been exploited for many decades and in some parts, over a century. They represent examples of on-going post-glacial biological and ecological evolution of terrestrial ecosystems and are indispensable to understanding how one species, the European beech, came to absolute dominance across a variety of environmental conditions.

All of the individual site components are surrounded by larger forested buffer zones and lie within larger national parks or biosphere reserves. They are subject to national law and are governed by the respective länder, with varying percentages of land under private ownership.

Hainich National Park, Kellerwald National Park and Jasmund National Park are managed as Category II protected areas according to the IUCN Protected Area Management Categories, whereas Grumsiner Forst and Grosser und Kleiner Serrahn Nature Reserve are Category IV protected areas.

View images of the World Heritage site
Size and Location

The component parts of the site are Jasmund and Serrahn, in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania; Grumsin in Brandenburg, Hainich in Thuringia, and Kellerwald in Hessen. They are distributed from the low mountains to the Baltic Sea. The other part of the serial World Heritage Site, the Primeval Beech Forests of the Carpathians, is located along the common boundary of Slovakia and Ukraine and is comprised of ten serial components.

The German sites cover a total of about 4,400 hectares, with buffer zones adding up to about 13,700 hectares. The World Heritage property PBF of the Carpatians extends to a size of almost 30,000 hectares, with buffer zones covering 48,700 hectares.

Flora and Fauna

The 11 species of the genus Fagus (beech) are restricted to the northern hemisphere – they are found only in the temperate nemoral zone of eastern North America, Europe, and Asia.

The European or copper beech (Fagus sylvatica L.) is not found outside of Europe and west Asia. The European beech represents the main climax tree species in the temperate zone of Central Europe and historically is a significant forest constituent in an area extending from the north of Spain and the south of England and Sweden, to the east of Poland, the Carpathian Arc and south of the Balkan and Apennine peninsulas.

Primary European temperate forests are rare, due to their long history of continuous exploitation by humans. Forests have long been used both directly for wood products and fuel, and indirectly through conversion to agriculture and settlement, as population increased. For all beech species only small refugia of undisturbed locations persist today and for more than half of the species it is even unclear whether there are any undisturbed areas remaining. Germany, being in the centre of the natural distribution of this forest type and having some of the largest areas of this forest type left, has a globally important role in the conservation of European beech forest ecosystems.

Elessar

04-18-2019, 08:22 AM

I am willing to bet they will have problems finding any trees big enough to replace those beams. Old growth forests with trees that big (the size of those beams!) are rare these days.

I was thinking the same thing when seeing those pics.
They can likely get them from Germany. As to my knowledge it still has some old growth forests with huge trees.
But costs will definitely be very high per beam., methinks.. -Tyr

Douglas Fir trees from Oregon or Washington would fit the bill. They grow to over 250 feet, and that
is not just old growth either.

Import costs would be substantial, but with donations pouring in, could be alleviated.

STTAB

04-18-2019, 08:29 AM

jimnyc

04-18-2019, 08:32 AM

Targeting requires intent, which I can only appeal to not have. Regardless of intent though if it’s something you and Jim are both seeing then I’m going wrong somewhere, and will be deliberate in responding less.

Stop being dramatic. I explained 2 times what I "thought" I saw. You have now explained yourself twice. If there's no intent and I was wrong, then continue on. But stating you will post less isn't much different than those announcing their plans to leave.

And just maybe, if you read what we wrote, maybe you will just take a peek at what you write at times and also continue on. Someone telling you what they think they see from your posting isn't telling you to leave or post less.

Why you can't respond as I did, explain yourself as you did, and then continue on, is beyond me. Folks are critiqued here daily, it doesn't mean folks need to leave or post less. But if you think deliberately posting less is the answer - so be it. Makes no sense. But to each their own.

jimnyc

04-18-2019, 08:36 AM

I still haven't seen any evidence of anything other than a shitty fire, no signs of arson or terrorism. But we're also at the mercy of investigators and authorities.

I think the muslims would WANT to perform such acts, and I think far too many are thrilled and celebrating these events, but that doesn't make them guilty of this particular fire.

Add in their past talk of desires, it's quite easy to see why folks are suspect of the fire and them. Seeing ANYONE celebrate such things is disgusting. And now, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to start targeting other houses of worship. Oh wait, they have already been doing that. :(

Sadly, someone went into St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC yesterday with cans of gas and lighter fluid. :( :(

CSM

04-18-2019, 08:46 AM

jimnyc

04-18-2019, 08:49 AM

STTAB

04-18-2019, 09:31 AM

LongTermGuy

04-18-2019, 10:15 AM

You can bet your last nickel that if it had been a terrorist act, some organization would be claiming responsibility for it by now. I am surprised none have claimed such even if they did not do it.

"Something like this"... NO Bragging needed (or wanted) from the terrorist ...it`s done and appears they are smelling like roses for now....The terrorist are evolving ...why bring unneeded heat on themselves and slow down the agenda......................................

High_Plains_Drifter

04-18-2019, 10:25 AM

Maybe the muslims have decided "taking credit for it" isn't what they should do at this point in time. Maybe they're getting smart and don't want the attention. IDK. Maybe they have but it's being scrubbed. Obviously people here believe differently.

We don't have a single shred of evidence it was an accident either, other than they say it was, and did even before the fire was out. How they pulled that deduction off so fast I'll never know. They must be clairvoyant. They appeared to be in a real big hurry to declare it accidental. Why? But after seeing the unidentified person that certainly appears to be a muslim walking on the cat walk after the fire had started and the building was supposedly evacuated, and then the other mysterious person up on the roof scaffolding that also does not appear to be a worker making flashes of light happen, who also hasn't been identified, right before the fire started, what was he doing? That's why I believe it was started. The chances of a fire starting all by itself, little to none. The chances that a worker accidentally starts a fire by doing something so CARELESSLY to cause enough heat to ignite a fire and it goes unnoticed, again, you'd have to be one ignorant worker, and I don't believe they hired a bunch of careless, ignorant people to work on one of the worlds greatest structures. The chances that the fire was started, like ten other churches in the area just recently, and like the nut case just tried to do in NYC, and has been happening all over the world at an astronomical rate, very good in my opinion. I'd say there's more evidence that points to it was started than it was an accident, which basically there's none.

So I believe it was started, and until I hear and see proof of what this accident was and hear from a worker that he started it by doing this or that, I'll continue to believe it was started.

LongTermGuy

04-18-2019, 10:34 AM

Were the French NOT Thinking?

http://www.arcat.com/photos/benjamin/161344_THUMB.jpg

https://www.thermoguarduk.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/3060mins-Wood-Paint.jpg
http://www.coating.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/intumescent-woord.jpg

High_Plains_Drifter

04-18-2019, 10:47 AM

You'd THINK, that if they were so worried about a fire at quite possibly the world's greatest cathedral, they'd have taken EVERY, POSSIBLE, PRECAUTION, NOT to accidentally spark a fire... you'd THINK. But no, oh no, they just came in willy nilly and went about their work not caring if something they were doing that caused that much heat would start a fire, but they did, they just ignored any precautions, and went ahead and caused some sort of enough heat or sparks flying, whatever, by doing something, we don't know what, and they just paid no attention to it and STARTED THE FIRE, and didn't even know that they started the fire.

Nope... not buying that scenario for a second, and if I was the crew and/or contractor, I'd be pissed off that they'd even suggested that my crew and my construction ethics and knowledge were that lackadaisical.

Kathianne

04-18-2019, 09:42 PM

Seems that fire has been a concern:

https://frenchly.us/was-everything-possible-done-to-avoid-the-fire-at-notre-dame-cathedral/

Was Everything Possible Done to Avoid the Fire atNotre-Dame Cathedral?

Benjamin Mouton is Chief Architect of Historic Monuments (ACMH). He was architecte en charge ofNotre-Dame de Paris Cathedral from 2000 to 2013, and is still today its architecte en chef. At thebeginning of 2010, he implemented a strict monitoring and fire prevention protocol. In an interviewwith Le Point conducted after the Notre-Dame de Paris Cathedral fire on Monday, April 15, hereviewed the difficulties and risks involved in restoring the site on such a scale.

Le Point: What types of precautions against fires were in place in this cathedral, which istoday largely destroyed?

Benjamin Mouton: It’s one of the most monitored buildings in our country. In 2010 and 2011, Iimplemented a rigorous protection protocol for fire risk prevention. Specifically, the protection planwas based on a permanent monitoring system relying on detectors (paying attention to the possiblerisks of electrical short-circuits), the installation of doors and firewalls, and the presence of twofiremen 24 hours a day, making three rounds a day. With the idea being that the sooner the alert wasmade, the sooner we could intervene. It’s unimaginable, yesterday’s fire spread in an absolutelyastounding way!

LP: What are the current prospects for reconstruction?

BM: First of all, it will be necessary to identify the damage that the building has suffered. Then,install a temporary roof, an “umbrella” to prevent rain from entering the premises and to dry out therafters and attic space. Then it will be a question of making a precise assessment of what can bepreserved or is lost, removing the burned wood from this splendid “Gothic forest” that has been scarred. In 2012, we inventoried the type of old wood used in the structure, some of which predatedthe 12th century. Before starting the renovation, it will be necessary to inspect the stone vaults thathave been subjected to extreme heat, over 900 degrees Celsius (1652 Fahrenheit). This thermalshock transforms the limestone into lime (a sort of calcium chalk), weakening these load-bearingstructures, which are already weighed down by the water poured out by the fire brigade’s hoses. Butthe cathedral must open as soon as possible. Its rescue will come from a quick recovery andresponse. In northern England, York Cathedral was reborn from the ashes after being struck bylighting in 1984. This is an example that may provide some optimism.

STTAB

04-19-2019, 08:13 AM

Seems that fire has been a concern:

https://frenchly.us/was-everything-possible-done-to-avoid-the-fire-at-notre-dame-cathedral/

Of course fire has been a concern, I mean we're talking about a thousand year old box of kindling wood. But it just happened to recently catch on fire after an influx of Muslims into France , and when many other churches are being burned down, and right before a major Christian holiday? That's a bit too many coincidences to just say "hey it was an old wood building, no need to wonder" for me.

Kathianne

04-19-2019, 08:18 AM

Of course fire has been a concern, I mean we're talking about a thousand year old box of kindling wood. But it just happened to recently catch on fire after an influx of Muslims into France , and when many other churches are being burned down, and right before a major Christian holiday? That's a bit too many coincidences to just say "hey it was an old wood building, no need to wonder" for me.

I understand the thinking, I just don't like to 'be sure' without any evidence to go on. In this case, there's more to say that it was unintentional than something else. Does that mean it was an accident? No. I'm just wired to looking at what's before me. There's arguments on both the 'certains' and 'the investigators.' Right now it just seems to me to be folly to close one's mind to fit one's preferred narrative.

STTAB

04-19-2019, 08:22 AM

I understand the thinking, I just don't like to 'be sure' without any evidence to go on. In this case, there's more to say that it was unintentional than something else. Does that mean it was an accident? No. I'm just wired to looking at what's before me. There's arguments on both the 'certains' and 'the investigators.' Right now it just seems to me to be folly to close one's mind to fit one's preferred narrative.

I agree with that, I'm not "certain" that it was a Muslim attack. I just am pretty certain in terms of talking on a message board.