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jimnyc
09-05-2007, 08:02 AM
What happens to a Muslim should they choose to leave and/or deny their faith?


"Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim."


"All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed.A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others. The Islamic laws governing apostasy are derived from the traditions; Al-Shafi'i interpreted the verse [Qur'an 2:217] as adducing the main evidence for the death penalty in Qur'an.According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur'an.

Some contemporary Shi'a jurists, scholars, writers and Islamic sects have argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among Islamic scholars."


The Hadith (the body of quotes attributed to Muhammad and claimed eyewitnesses' accounts of Muhammad's life and deeds) includes statements that Muslim scholars such as Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid see as supporting the death penalty for apostasy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam


It is clear quite clear that under Islamic Law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical Muslim or modern scholars, and we shall return to the textual evidence for it. Some modern scholars have argued that in the Koran the apostate is threatened with punishment only in the next world, as for example at XVI.106, “Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief –save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.” Similarly in III.90-91, “Lo! those who disbelieve after their (profession of) belief, and afterward grow violent in disbelief, their repentance will not be accepted. And such are those who are astray. Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul).Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.”
However, Sura II.217 is interpreted by no less an authority than al-Shafi’i(died 820 C.E.), the founder of one of the four orthodox schools of law of Sunni Islam to mean that the death penalty should be prescribed for apostates. Sura II.217 reads: “… But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever , his works shall come to nothing in this world and the next, and they are the companions of the fire for ever.” Al-Thalabi and al -Khazan concur. Al-Razi in his commentary on II:217 says the apostate should be killed.


http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001590.php


"According to Muslim Law, a male apostate, or murtadd, is liable to be put to death if he continue obstinate in his error; a female apostate is not subject to capital punishment, but she may be kept in confinement until she recant. If either the husband or the wife apostatize from the faith of Islam, a divorce takes place ipso facto; the wife is entitled to her whole dower, but no sentence of divorce is necessary. If the husband and wife both apostatize together, their marriage is generally allowed to continue, although Imam Zufar says if either husband or wife were singly to return to Islam, then the marriage would be dissolved. According to Abu Hanifah, a male apostate is disabled from selling or otherwise disposing of his property. But Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad differ from their master on this point, and consider a male apostate to be as competent to exercise every right as if he were still in the faith.
If a boy under age apostatize, he is not to be put to death, but to be imprisoned until he come to full age, when, if he continues in the state of unbelief, he must be put to death. Neither lunatics nor drunkards are held to be responsible for their apostasy from Islam. If a person upon compulsion became an apostate, his wife is not divorced, nor are his lands forfeited. If a person become a Mussulman upon compulsion, and afterwards apostatize, he is not to be put to death.
The will of a male apostate is not valid, but that of a female apostate is valid.
Ikrimah relates that some apostates were brought to the Khalifa Ali, and he burnt them alive; but Ibn Abbas heard of it and said that the Khalifa had not acted rightly, for the Prophet had said "[I]Punish not with God's punishment (i.e., fire), but whosoever changes his religion, kill him with the sword."


http://www.muslim-canada.org/apostasy.htm

These selected quotes/articles are just a few I found with a very brief search. There is an extensive amount of knowledge to be found out there about what happens to Muslim apostates. While there are few Muslims who will deny and/or argue the penalties for leaving the Muslim faith, history shows the penalties to be very severe for those caught exercising this act.

I have to ask, why should anyone be harmed in ANY way for leaving a religion? Never mind being put to death, why ANY penalty? Most stories I've read, directly from Muslims themselves, discuss harsh treatment, death, loss of family, having to hide and move... Why?

If Muslims are supposed to be peaceful people, wouldn't this fall in direct contradiction?

Nukeman
09-05-2007, 08:07 AM
What happens to a Muslim should they choose to leave and/or deny their faith?







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam



http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001590.php



http://www.muslim-canada.org/apostasy.htm

These selected quotes/articles are just a few I found with a very brief search. There is an extensive amount of knowledge to be found out there about what happens to Muslim apostates. While there are few Muslims who will deny and/or argue the penalties for leaving the Muslim faith, history shows the penalties to be very severe for those caught exercising this act.

I have to ask, why should anyone be harmed in ANY way for leaving a religion? Never mind being put to death, why ANY penalty? Most stories I've read, directly from Muslims themselves, discuss harsh treatment, death, loss of family, having to hide and move... Why?

If Muslims are supposed to be peaceful people, wouldn't this fall in direct contradiction?


Besides dont they get their penalty after death??? I mean after all if you dont follow the Islamic path you will burn in hell anyway so why do they feel the need to hasten the journey there???

All these are very good questions Jimmy I have asked these same on another board (an Islamic one) and noone will give a streaight answer..

I will point out that the directive to kill the apostate is for those Muslims BORN into Islam. If your a convert and decide the change back the killing is not to happen. Personaly the whole thing is BS and they know it they just dont want people switching because it might mean they dont hav all the answers....

theHawk
09-05-2007, 08:37 AM
There are many things Muslims will never give a straight answer to.
They can't answer why a prophet of God would be allowed to commit pedophila. They can't answer why they believe Jesus was a prophet of God yet surrounding himself with disciples that would end up telling 'lies' about his divinity. Nothing about Islam makes any damn sense at all, its a totally ass-backwards religion founded on falsehoods by a murdering lunatic.

diuretic
09-05-2007, 08:51 AM
What a circle jerk :laugh2:

If you blokes get into any deeper into this agreeing-with-each other frenzy you'll have to get a room :laugh2:

theHawk
09-05-2007, 08:53 AM
What a circle jerk :laugh2:

If you blokes get into any deeper into this agreeing-with-each other frenzy you'll have to get a room :laugh2:

In other words you don't have an answer either.

jimnyc
09-05-2007, 08:57 AM
What a circle jerk :laugh2:

If you blokes get into any deeper into this agreeing-with-each other frenzy you'll have to get a room :laugh2:

I'm certainly not looking for "agreement" but rather understanding.

I could go on about how the Qu'ran can be interpreted to have Muslim men beat their wives, and how far superior men are compared to women - but I'll save that subject for once this thread has reached it's completion.

I just can't personally fathom why any harm, or negative aspect, should be brought upon any person if they choose to deny their faith, or choose an alternate faith. It just boggles my mind. I know "some" will ultimately come here and claim this is an untruth, or misinterpreted, but I'll save the many stories of where Muslims have been killed, tortured or basically "disowned" for my rebuttal. What one interprets may be one thing and what scholars teach is another, and what happens in reality is even another. But the bottom line is that the reality of these circumstances simply cannot be denied. Right now I'm currently reading other pages which are written directly from Muslim converts themselves, and what they have been through as a result. It's sickening and saddening at the same time.

diuretic
09-05-2007, 08:57 AM
In other words you don't have an answer either.

No, I was just having a go at you all :laugh2:

diuretic
09-05-2007, 09:01 AM
I'm certainly not looking for "agreement" but rather understanding.

I could go on about how the Qu'ran can be interpreted to have Muslim men beat their wives, and how far superior men are compared to women - but I'll save that subject for once this thread has reached it's completion.

I just can't personally fathom why any harm, or negative aspect, should be brought upon any person if they choose to deny their faith, or choose an alternate faith. It just boggles my mind. I know "some" will ultimately come here and claim this is an untruth, or misinterpreted, but I'll save the many stories of where Muslims have been killed, tortured or basically "disowned" for my rebuttal. What one interprets may be one thing and what scholars teach is another, and what happens in reality is even another. But the bottom line is that the reality of these circumstances simply cannot be denied. Right now I'm currently reading other pages which are written directly from Muslim converts themselves, and what they have been through as a result. It's sickening and saddening at the same time.

No argument from me, I'm not enamoured of religion although as I've said and I hold to, I do believe in religious tolerance as long as secular laws aren't breached.

This was interesting though -

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm

I don't know much about Islam but I think I'm right in suggesting that there's no one central doctrine. I was baptised as a Catholic, I studied the Catechism, I know all about the central authority of the Pope and Rome and how the Catholic Church exercises immense control over the lives of all Catholics all over the planet. I do know Islam isn't like that. Apart from that I know sod-all.

Nukeman
09-05-2007, 12:55 PM
No argument from me, I'm not enamoured of religion although as I've said and I hold to, I do believe in religious tolerance as long as secular laws aren't breached.

This was interesting though -

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm

I don't know much about Islam but I think I'm right in suggesting that there's no one central doctrine. I was baptised as a Catholic, I studied the Catechism, I know all about the central authority of the Pope and Rome and how the Catholic Church exercises immense control over the lives of all Catholics all over the planet. I do know Islam isn't like that. Apart from that I know sod-all.
Here is the biggest problem with Islam. They have no central authority to answer to and that is the most frieghtening thing. It (Islam) is left up to the interpretation of the individual "scholar" who has studied the Koran suposedly so his "flock" is at his mercy of interpretation, you are also forbidden to interpret the Koran yourself unless you are a "scholar"..... They dont want individual thinkers they want mindless sheep that dont ask too many questions about the inconsistancies in their religion....

Monkeybone
09-05-2007, 02:10 PM
isnt that what was going on with churches for a long time? they were only in Latin so you just had to take the preists word?

jimnyc
09-05-2007, 02:11 PM
I just got back from my local Mobil station a short while ago from getting some smokes. The station is owned by Muslims, primarily from Morocco & Jordan. Funny side note - the owners name is "Jehad" - note the spelling is with an E and not an I. I bust his chops about it all the time. There are 8 of them there altogether and they're some truly nice guys.

My 2 friends there, and I call them friends because I have hung out with them before, are Karim and Abraham. I decided to speak to Karim today about "apostasy" and get his point of view on things. As well, I asked him about the treatment of women within the Muslim community.

First he made a point of bashing Bush. He despises him and believes a lot of Muslims are now hated as a result of Bush's "rhetoric". He has been called many names and mistreated since his arrival here from Morocco in 1999. He didn't understand what I meant by apostasy but quickly understood when I explained it as "converting from Islam to another faith".

His first thoughts were that Islam is a religion of peace, and he truly believes that anyone who leaves the faith would likely return eventually. But with that said, he basically said anyone who would do so within the Muslim community would now be considered an "outlaw" of sorts and ignored by the community, and could very well still in some areas be beaten and/or killed by the locals. Although he disagrees with this approach, he did say it is still prevalent if someone should deny the Muslim faith.

He went on about the treatment of women, and stated that although things are changing for the better as of late, women don't get treated in Muslim communities in the way American women do and women in other countries. He stated he is not like that, and he treats any woman he is with like a goddess, but that many Muslims look at their women as "possessions".

In a nutshell, he is very proud of his religion, and rightfully so, but understands the weaknesses in the Muslim community as well and knows there is loads of room for improvement. He also noted that Muslim communities vary, and that not all are alike. But denying the Muslim faith is pretty much "forbidden" in all Muslim communities. As for the treatment of women, he said not all are alike, some treat them horribly, while where he was in Morocco they were treated very well.

Just another Muslim's point of view on today.

manu1959
09-05-2007, 03:50 PM
isnt that what was going on with churches for a long time? they were only in Latin so you just had to take the preists word?

so what you are saying is the muslim world is still in the dark ages....

jafar00
09-05-2007, 03:55 PM
There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error. Qur'aan 2:256

And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve Qur'aan 18:29

You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion. Qur'aan 109:6

Death penalties for apostacy are man made laws that bear no resemblance to what is written in the Qur'aan which is the final word on things that are disputed.

It doesn't matter what a scholar says, or what is in a Hadith, if it contradicts the Qur'aan, the scholar's opinion and the hadith are both null and void. Period! There is even a hadith to that effect somewhere. I'll have to try and dig it up.

jimnyc
09-05-2007, 04:02 PM
There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error. Qur'aan 2:256

And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve Qur'aan 18:29

You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion. Qur'aan 109:6

Death penalties for apostacy are man made laws that bear no resemblance to what is written in the Qur'aan which is the final word on things that are disputed.

It doesn't matter what a scholar says, or what is in a Hadith, if it contradicts the Qur'aan, the scholar's opinion and the hadith are both null and void. Period! There is even a hadith to that effect somewhere. I'll have to try and dig it up.

I don't care what is or isn't written anywhere, what disturbs me is the ACTIONS of what happens when someone denies their Muslim faith - written in the Qu'ran or not. It's just outright disturbing that ANYTHING would have to happen to these people for leaving the Muslim faith.

But I do find it odd that you denounce what scholars say now, but used them to support your claims in the other thread just yesterday. :)

Gaffer
09-05-2007, 04:13 PM
I just got back from my local Mobil station a short while ago from getting some smokes. The station is owned by Muslims, primarily from Morocco & Jordan. Funny side note - the owners name is "Jehad" - note the spelling is with an E and not an I. I bust his chops about it all the time. There are 8 of them there altogether and they're some truly nice guys.

My 2 friends there, and I call them friends because I have hung out with them before, are Karim and Abraham. I decided to speak to Karim today about "apostasy" and get his point of view on things. As well, I asked him about the treatment of women within the Muslim community.

First he made a point of bashing Bush. He despises him and believes a lot of Muslims are now hated as a result of Bush's "rhetoric". He has been called many names and mistreated since his arrival here from Morocco in 1999. He didn't understand what I meant by apostasy but quickly understood when I explained it as "converting from Islam to another faith".

His first thoughts were that Islam is a religion of peace, and he truly believes that anyone who leaves the faith would likely return eventually. But with that said, he basically said anyone who would do so within the Muslim community would now be considered an "outlaw" of sorts and ignored by the community, and could very well still in some areas be beaten and/or killed by the locals. Although he disagrees with this approach, he did say it is still prevalent if someone should deny the Muslim faith.

He went on about the treatment of women, and stated that although things are changing for the better as of late, women don't get treated in Muslim communities in the way American women do and women in other countries. He stated he is not like that, and he treats any woman he is with like a goddess, but that many Muslims look at their women as "possessions".

In a nutshell, he is very proud of his religion, and rightfully so, but understands the weaknesses in the Muslim community as well and knows there is loads of room for improvement. He also noted that Muslim communities vary, and that not all are alike. But denying the Muslim faith is pretty much "forbidden" in all Muslim communities. As for the treatment of women, he said not all are alike, some treat them horribly, while where he was in Morocco they were treated very well.

Just another Muslim's point of view on today.

He sounds like a possible future apostate. America does that to people after a while. He shouldn't hate Bush for his treatment. He needs to turn his hate where it belongs. al qeda and iran. That's one of the problems with the so called good muslims, they don't blame the ones really responsible.