Fake News Frenzy.

[Elessar]

Here is the frenzy over the Presidents observation on Dorian and Alabama.

Look carefully at all of the graphs. NOAA/NWS supports his observations

And concerns: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/weather-officials-say-dorian-could-have-impacted-alabama-as-trump-said

[LongTermGuy]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/09/05/13/18105540-7431221-image-a-13_1567686466242.jpg

[STTAB]

Be that as it may, this was yet another self inflicted wound. Why on Earth would you present an official map with any sort of hand drawn extension on it? It's buffoonery and reeks of an unprofessional environment.

You know , in Trump's first year these sort of flubs were acceptable, he'd never been in politics before. I imagine that's the way he has always done business, but after 2 1/2 fucking years in office he should know by now that the media is gonna crucify him for such stupid things. Yet he refuses to clean it up. I , for one, am getting tired of it.

[Kathianne]

Be that as it may, this was yet another self inflicted wound. Why on Earth would you present an official map with any sort of hand drawn extension on it? It's buffoonery and reeks of an unprofessional environment.

You know , in Trump's first year these sort of flubs were acceptable, he'd never been in politics before. I imagine that's the way he has always done business, but after 2 1/2 fucking years in office he should know by now that the media is gonna crucify him for such stupid things. Yet he refuses to clean it up. I , for one, am getting tired of it.

It amuses him. Those that think he's perfect, they love whatever. Those that don't, he doesn't care about.

[STTAB]

It amuses him. Those that think he's perfect, they love whatever. Those that don't, he doesn't care about.

It saddens me that we have such a childish President.

350M fucking people in this country and our choice for President came down to a fucking criminal and a 70 plus year old child....................

[Kathianne]

It saddens me that we have such a childish President.

350M fucking people in this country and our choice for President came down to a fucking criminal and a 70 plus year old child....................

Yep. I have always accepted the president that's elected. I've never bought into the nonsense of 'not my president,' that is idiotic.

OTOH, really don't care for a president that has no interest in those that he feels do not support him. Support shouldn't mean having orgasms everytime he opens his mouth, but to him and his 'core' that is exactly what it means.

[STTAB]

Yep. I have always accepted the president that's elected. I've never bought into the nonsense of 'not my president,' that is idiotic.

OTOH, really don't care for a president that has no interest in those that he feels do not support him. Support shouldn't mean having orgasms everytime he opens his mouth, but to him and his 'core' that is exactly what it means.

On the other hand, can you really blame Trump and his supporters for buying so fully into the "it's us against them" politics? Look at the way he and his supporters have been treated since well really since he won the GOP nomination . It's been pathetic, there is no other word for it. PATHETIC, and no I really can't fault Trump for thinking "fuck these people"

[Kathianne]

On the other hand, can you really blame Trump and his supporters for buying so fully into the "it's us against them" politics? Look at the way he and his supporters have been treated since well really since he won the GOP nomination . It's been pathetic, there is no other word for it. PATHETIC, and no I really can't fault Trump for thinking "fuck these people"

Man up.

[pete311]

The point is that his information was on old projections from days earlier. All he had to do was issue a quick retraction. No one would have made a fuss, but of course he can't ever be wrong so he tripled down and made a fool out of everyone including NOAA who he pressured to issue an unsigned statement and later it came out NOAA officials warned scientists not to contradict Trump.

[STTAB]

The point is that his information was on old projections from days earlier. All he had to do was issue a quick retraction. No one would have made a fuss, but of course he can't ever be wrong so he tripled down and made a fool out of everyone including NOAA who he pressured to issue an unsigned statement and later it came out NOAA officials warned scientists not to contradict Trump.
The actual point is no one actually gives a fuck about a sharpie mark on a map, just another "ERMERGAWD ORANGE MAN BAD" hysteria moment.

You and your liberal cohorts are more worked up over this than you are that several federal agencies conspired to overthrow a duly elected President and that is one sad fucking fact.

[pete311]

The actual point is no one actually gives a fuck about a sharpie mark on a map, just another "ERMERGAWD ORANGE MAN BAD" hysteria moment.

You and your liberal cohorts are more worked up over this than you are that several federal agencies conspired to overthrow a duly elected President and that is one sad fucking fact.

Other than it's one more example of where he distorts facts and reality, one in which lives are at stake.

[STTAB]

Other than it's one more example of where he distorts facts and reality, one in which lives are at stake.


Oh do tell, how was anyone's life risked by that little mark being added to that map? The answer is , obviously, it had zero impact on anyone's life. When you're dealing with the fucking weather , especially a hurricane if you're dumb ass is relying on the government to tell you weather to get the fuck out or not , you deserve what you get anyway.

[pete311]

Oh do tell, how was anyone's life risked by that little mark being added to that map? The answer is , obviously, it had zero impact on anyone's life. When you're dealing with the fucking weather , especially a hurricane if you're dumb ass is relying on the government to tell you weather to get the fuck out or not , you deserve what you get anyway.

You like talking credibility. What happens when the next disaster or conflict comes around and Trump makes an announcement. People don't know whether to trust him or not.

[Kathianne]

You like talking credibility. What happens when the next disaster or conflict comes around and Trump makes an announcement. People don't know whether to trust him or not.
NOAA's cover note for him, days after the fact, reeks. Right there with sell out FBI, IRS, DOJ...

[pete311]

NOAA's cover note for him, days after the fact, reeks. Right there with sell out FBI, IRS, DOJ...

Have you seen today's story about how the CIA had to pull out their top spy out of Russia because they couldn't trust Trump?

[pete311]

Also breaking is that Wilbur Ross threatened to fire NOAA officials if they didn't release the statement.

[Kathianne]

Also breaking is that Wilbur Ross threatened to fire NOAA officials if they didn't release the statement.

This is so unnecessary and so insane. An honest mistake on maps, which anyone who'd been paying attention to his tweets, knew he was looking at a lot of them. He said something about AL that was overstated, but hey, it's what he does. Problem was that the overstatement was regarding a map from a few days before and a different path was happening by that point. No biggie. Not close to '57 states' or 'shooting at me from Kosovo' or 'Jumped out of helo to bin Laden's Pakistan Camp.' A mistake, simple one.

He should work on a new book, 'The Art of a Pinch of Self-Deprecation.' Just a bit.

So now NOAA, is part of the untrustworthy federal offices. A cabinet officer has threatened scientists to back up a President that could have just stopped referring to the mistake, if incapable of admitting making one. A small, insignificant one.

[Abbey Marie]

Other than it's one more example of where he distorts facts and reality, one in which lives are at stake.

Thank God our media doesn’t distort facts. Oh, wait.

[STTAB]

This is so unnecessary and so insane. An honest mistake on maps, which anyone who'd been paying attention to his tweets, knew he was looking at a lot of them. He said something about AL that was overstated, but hey, it's what he does. Problem was that the overstatement was regarding a map from a few days before and a different path was happening by that point. No biggie. Not close to '57 states' or 'shooting at me from Kosovo' or 'Jumped out of helo to bin Laden's Pakistan Camp.' A mistake, simple one.

He should work on a new book, 'The Art of a Pinch of Self-Deprecation.' Just a bit.

So now NOAA, is part of the untrustworthy federal offices. A cabinet officer has threatened scientists to back up a President that could have just stopped referring to the mistake, if incapable of admitting making one. A small, insignificant one.
No, you have misread that situation.

What NOAA was told was "if yall don't stop purposely putting out information which contradicts what the President has said, political appointees will get fired" and I don't give a damn if Trump made a mistake or not, those motherfuckers work for Trump and it isn't their job to "correct him" in public. It was quite obvious that the statement put out by that agency was meant to embarrass Trump rather than inform the public. That kind of thing has to stop.

And I'm plenty frustrated that Trump can't just stop with his bullshit as you well know.

[Kathianne]

No, you have misread that situation.

What NOAA was told was "if yall don't stop purposely putting out information which contradicts what the President has said, political appointees will get fired" and I don't give a damn if Trump made a mistake or not, those motherfuckers work for Trump and it isn't their job to "correct him" in public. It was quite obvious that the statement put out by that agency was meant to embarrass Trump rather than inform the public. That kind of thing has to stop.

And I'm plenty frustrated that Trump can't just stop with his bullshit as you well know.

Actually, they did their job, irregardless of his or a minion's inane orders. Too bad some of the FBI guys didn't do the same with the coup attempts.

"I was following orders," can be an answer. Ethical or moral? Depends.

Whom to answer to? A flawed superior or conscience?

[STTAB]

Actually, they did their job, irregardless of his or a minion's inane orders. Too bad some of the FBI guys didn't do the same with the coup attempts.

"I was following orders," can be an answer. Ethical or moral? Depends.

Whom to answer to? A flawed superior or conscience?

What are you talking about? Anyone who has EVER held a job knows you don't EVER publicly embarass your boss. These people did, on purpose. You absolutely , positively know that the was the only reason those statements were released to embarrass Trump. Ross sent a memo out " next time that happens, someone is getting fired" that would happen at ANY job.

I'll relate that to the FBI, I personally would have fired Christopher Wray when he contradicted both his boss and his boss's boss by saying " I personally wouldn't call it spying"

When you work for someone it is NOT your job to publicly humiliate them. If those people thought Trump had done something wrong, they have a channel to address those concerns.

How the fuck would a government function if unelected bureaucrats could just release whatever the fuck they wanted regardless of what the people elected to be their bosses thought or wanted Kath? Go back to the all leaks, we can't allow this shit to continue where the elected aren't actually in charge. Talk about disenfranchising people.

[Kathianne]

What are you talking about? Anyone who has EVER held a job knows you don't EVER publicly embarass your boss. These people did, on purpose. You absolutely , positively know that the was the only reason those statements were released to embarrass Trump. Ross sent a memo out " next time that happens, someone is getting fired" that would happen at ANY job.

I'll relate that to the FBI, I personally would have fired Christopher Wray when he contradicted both his boss and his boss's boss by saying " I personally wouldn't call it spying"

When you work for someone it is NOT your job to publicly humiliate them. If those people thought Trump had done something wrong, they have a channel to address those concerns.

How the fuck would a government function if unelected bureaucrats could just release whatever the fuck they wanted regardless of what the people elected to be their bosses thought or wanted Kath? Go back to the all leaks, we can't allow this shit to continue where the elected aren't actually in charge. Talk about disenfranchising people.

The President stated on air, for AL to take immediate precautions, they were in the crosshairs. He wished them blessings.

The NWS stated that AL residents were ok, never mentioned the president, just said the hurricane wasn't a threat to them.

That IS their job. Not licking the President's whatever.

[STTAB]

The President stated on air, for AL to take immediate precautions, they were in the crosshairs. He wished them blessings.

The NWS stated that AL residents were ok, never mentioned the president, just said the hurricane wasn't a threat to them.

That IS their job. Not licking the President's whatever.

They didn't have to mention him by name, they tweeted out 100% exactly the opposite of what Trump said FOR ONE PURPOSE. You're lying Kath if you say you don't know for fact that they ONLY reason they tweeted that out was to embarras Trump.

They claim that they did so to get correct info out there, but that lie is so obvious that Ray Charles could see it. I mean seriously, would ANYONE have been harmed if they had not made that Tweet? Meaning that if the ONLY information anyone had from the government was Trump's statement that Alabama may get hit " would anyone have been harmed? The answer, of course, is no. And those folks knew that, anyone with a functioning brain knew that. The Tweet had ONE purpose and one purpose only. Embarrass Trump.

Ross's message was clear "embarrass the boss again and someone is getting fired" whether you agree or disagree with the actions, are you arguing that the Administration doesn't have the right to fire employees who they feel embarrassed them?

We can't just let the inmates run the asylum. No matter who the President is. I would have said the EXACT same thing if public employees were setting out to publicly humiliate Obama. I have integrity like that.

[STTAB]

Actually, they did their job, irregardless of his or a minion's inane orders. Too bad some of the FBI guys didn't do the same with the coup attempts.

"I was following orders," can be an answer. Ethical or moral? Depends.

Whom to answer to? A flawed superior or conscience?

Maybe it's the military man in me, but their job is to follow orders, UNLESS those orders are illegal. Your conscience? Who gives a fuck about that, unelected bureaucrats do not get to decide what is right or what is wrong. They work for we the people represented by elected officials. PERIOD.

I'll give you an example. That idiotic woman down in Kentucky a few years ago after being told "you WILL issue marriage licenses to gay couples who otherwise qualify" and she just decided on her own "No I won't" she was in the wrong, I don't care about her conscience. I care about she was told to do something, if that something is legal, she can shut the fuck up and do it or go find another job.

[Kathianne]

Maybe it's the military man in me, but their job is to follow orders, UNLESS those orders are illegal. Your conscience? Who gives a fuck about that, unelected bureaucrats do not get to decide what is right or what is wrong. They work for we the people represented by elected officials. PERIOD.

I'll give you an example. That idiotic woman down in Kentucky a few years ago after being told "you WILL issue marriage licenses to gay couples who otherwise qualify" and she just decided on her own "No I won't" she was in the wrong, I don't care about her conscience. I care about she was told to do something, if that something is legal, she can shut the fuck up and do it or go find another job.

I'm not lying, There likely are people that lived in Alabama and the President said/tweeted that the state was going to be hit, in spite of all the contrary evidence, they'd believe him. Hells bells, they'd believe aliens were coming, regardless of what contrary info they had, if this president told them so.

NWS tweeted out the truth. As they should

They are not military, they are scientists. They do their jobs to the best of ability. They work for the people of the United States, same as the President.

[STTAB]

I'm not lying, There likely are people that lived in Alabama and the President said/tweeted that the state was going to be hit, in spite of all the contrary evidence, they'd believe him. Hells bells, they'd believe aliens were coming, regardless of what contrary info they had, if this president told them so.

NWS tweeted out the truth. As they should

They are not military, they are scientists. They do their jobs to the best of ability. They work for the people of the United States, same as the President.


Perhaps you missed what I wrote about you yesterday Kath. I don't think you're a liar. I just think you are wrong on this issue

And actually no NWS didn't tweet out the truth. Actually as far as that goes. All Trump said was that it looked like Alabama COULD be hit harder than previously thought.

Surely you realize that nothing the NWS tweets out in terms of weather predictions should ever be absolute. Those guys are worse at predicting the weather than CNN is about predicting who will win Presidential elections. But they DID tweet out as absolute. They did this as a way of saying "Trump is wrong" and no their job most certainly is NOT to say "the President is wrong" they in fact fucking work for Trump. He has every authority to tell them to stop tweeting shit out. That you don't like this fact does not make it any less true.

This is just one of those issues where you personally have let your dislike for Trump cloud your judgement and I for one am not going to let it ruin what I said about you yesterday, so I surrender. I've said my piece , you've said yours. Time to move on.

[Kathianne]

Perhaps you missed what I wrote about you yesterday Kath. I don't think you're a liar. I just think you are wrong on this issue

And actually no NWS didn't tweet out the truth. Actually as far as that goes. All Trump said was that it looked like Alabama COULD be hit harder than previously thought.

Surely you realize that nothing the NWS tweets out in terms of weather predictions should ever be absolute. Those guys are worse at predicting the weather than CNN is about predicting who will win Presidential elections. But they DID tweet out as absolute. They did this as a way of saying "Trump is wrong" and no their job most certainly is NOT to say "the President is wrong" they in fact fucking work for Trump. He has every authority to tell them to stop tweeting shit out. That you don't like this fact does not make it any less true.

This is just one of those issues where you personally have let your dislike for Trump cloud your judgement and I for one am not going to let it ruin what I said about you yesterday, so I surrender. I've said my piece , you've said yours. Time to move on.

I don't know if you are now suffering from Trumpitis or just being an ass. Alabama is on the Gulf, I think we can agree? By the time Trump first stated anything about crosshairs, Dorian was already beginning its eastern march from the Bahamas. the only discussion left is whether it as hitting central or northern FL? Not long later, even hitting FL at all came under question.

There was no question about AL.

[STTAB]

I don't know if you are now suffering from Trumpitis or just being an ass. Alabama is on the Gulf, I think we can agree? By the time Trump first stated anything about crosshairs, Dorian was already beginning its eastern march from the Bahamas. the only discussion left is whether it as hitting central or northern FL? Not long later, even hitting FL at all came under question.

There was no question about AL.


So to recap this thread

We have differing opinions. I say I respect your opinion too much overall to let this thread ruin that respect so I'm done with the topic and you return my respect by calling me an ass who has Trumpitis because I disagree with you........ That about sum it up?

WOW

[Kathianne]

So to recap this thread

We have differing opinions. I say I respect your opinion too much overall to let this thread ruin that respect so I'm done with the topic and you return my respect by calling me an ass who has Trumpitis because I disagree with you........ That about sum it up?

WOW

We do disagree, the difference is you switched to suddenly arguing that Trump really, really may have been right. The NWS should have let Trump's tweet, wrong though it was, stand; irregardless of perhaps frightening potentially thousands of people? Got that right?

[STTAB]

We do disagree, the difference is you switched to suddenly arguing that Trump really, really may have been right. The NWS should have let Trump's tweet, wrong though it was, stand; irregardless of perhaps frightening potentially thousands of people? Got that right?
No , I didn't say Trump was right, I said NWS was wrong for tweeting out that Trump was wrong. And that Ross had every right to threaten to fire political appointees who work for him if they continued to allow people in their agency to publicly embarrass the boss.

That being said, This is at least the third time that I can remember where I have publicly defended you and posted that you are a plus to this board and you respond by lumping me in with the idiots who never think Trump is wrong , despite every evidence to the contrary. IOW you seem incapable of or unwilling to return the respect I give you , even when we disagree. So be it, it hurts my e feelings, but its all good.

Have a nice evening Kath.

[Kathianne]

No , I didn't say Trump was right, I said NWS was wrong for tweeting out that Trump was wrong. And that Ross had every right to threaten to fire political appointees who work for him if they continued to allow people in their agency to publicly embarrass the boss.

That being said, This is at least the third time that I can remember where I have publicly defended you and posted that you are a plus to this board and you respond by lumping me in with the idiots who never think Trump is wrong , despite every evidence to the contrary. IOW you seem incapable of or unwilling to return the respect I give you , even when we disagree. So be it, it hurts my e feelings, but its all good.

Have a nice evening Kath.

You too! Wrong is wrong, I don't go along with saying wrong is right.

Same logic, the President says that aliens or an asteroid are about to hit earth. NASA responds that isn't correct. It's ok then for the President to start firing those at NASA.

[Russ]

Those that think he's perfect, they love whatever. Those that don't, he doesn't care about.

I think that I am in a third group. I don't think Trump is perfect, and I admit he has a lot of faults. But his policies have been mostly good for America, and I'm willing to put up with his faults to get the benefits of his good aspects. I also think that if Clinton or Obama had been treated by the media that way they've been treating Trump, then there would be plenty of similar stories about them. Especially Clinton. :laugh:

[Kathianne]

I think that I am in a third group. I don't think Trump is perfect, and I admit he has a lot of faults. But his policies have been mostly good for America, and I'm willing to put up with his faults to get the benefits of his good aspects. I also think that if Clinton or Obama had been treated by the media that way they've been treating Trump, then there would be plenty of similar stories about them. Especially Clinton. :laugh:


That would put us in agreement mostly. I have said that much of what he's done has been good for domestic. I have many problems with foreign policies, but disagreeing with a president I can support is not new either.

I too don't think the media has been anything close to 'fair', they never are with 'Republicans.' I know, I know, Trump is worse than anything before. It may be because of the way Trump has been too, but nah.

[STTAB]

You too! Wrong is wrong, I don't go along with saying wrong is right.

Same logic, the President says that aliens or an asteroid are about to hit earth. NASA responds that isn't correct. It's ok then for the President to start firing those at NASA.

Kath , listen carefully.

A) it is not the job of federal employees to correct the President. It's not their job, it's not their responsibility. Half the fucking time how they go about doing so is illegal.

B) The President and his cabinet have every right to fire , or threaten to fire, political appointees who they feel aren't doing their job. Even if they feel that job is to make sure their agency is not embarrassing the President.

It is possible to both think that the President was wrong to say anything about Alabama being in possible danger AND for it to be wrong for federal employees to try to embarrass him.

However , since we began this thread it has came out that Ross didn't threaten anyone anyway, and NWS says they weren't even aware of Trump's statements when they tweeted out that Alabama was in no danger. So who knows the truth.

[Kathianne]

Kath , listen carefully.

A) it is not the job of federal employees to correct the President. It's not their job, it's not their responsibility. Half the fucking time how they go about doing so is illegal.

B) The President and his cabinet have every right to fire , or threaten to fire, political appointees who they feel aren't doing their job. Even if they feel that job is to make sure their agency is not embarrassing the President.

It is possible to both think that the President was wrong to say anything about Alabama being in possible danger AND for it to be wrong for federal employees to try to embarrass him.

However , since we began this thread it has came out that Ross didn't threaten anyone anyway, and NWS says they weren't even aware of Trump's statements when they tweeted out that Alabama was in no danger. So who knows the truth.

Did the NWS put out a message to AR and AZ? If so, it would make as much sense-at the time they did so.

[Russ]

By the way, in regard to the NWS people putting out statements "correcting" Trump or making him sound foolish... I work at a large company with thousands of employees and one CEO, and if I made public statements saying the CEO was wrong about something, or making him sound foolish, then I would expect to get fired within 48 hours. And if I were the CEO and one of the employees made public statements to make me sound foolish, then I would fire that employee, and feel good about it.

This is really a class in "Working for a Living 101". Don't publicly make your boss, or the boss's boss, or especially the CEO look foolish. If you do, expect to get fired. It's as simple as that, and it's fair, too.

I don't like these NWS employees expecting to get treated any better than the rest of us. If they want to tell the media that their CEO is a fool, then they should shut up about the risk of losing their job.

[STTAB]

By the way, in regard to the NWS people putting out statements "correcting" Trump or making him sound foolish... I work at a large company with thousands of employees and one CEO, and if I made public statements saying the CEO was wrong about something, or making him sound foolish, then I would expect to get fired within 48 hours. And if I were the CEO and one of the employees made public statements to make me sound foolish, then I would fire that employee, and feel good about it.

This is really a class in "Working for a Living 101". Don't publicly make your boss, or the boss's boss, or especially the CEO look foolish. If you do, expect to get fired. It's as simple as that, and it's fair, too.

I don't like these NWS employees expecting to get treated any better than the rest of us. If they want to tell the media that their CEO is a fool, then they should shut up about the risk of losing their job.


And the attitude they have is exactly what is wrong with our government. There is zero accountability for anything government employees do. Well, not zero Congress did finally pass a law saying that VA employees could be fired for killing patients, for example.

But, can one imagine how inefficient Amazon would be if they ran their business the way the government runs and their employees behaved the way government employees behave? Think Jeff Bezos would tolerate a warehouse management team tweeting out that he was wrong about something? Fuck no he wouldn't. There wouldn't even be a "next time this happens" it would just be "you're fired"

And for those who say "government isn't business" the hell it isn't.

[Kathianne]

Bottom line though, private business employees work of the company. Public employees work for the people. Reporting on hurricanes, tornadoes, etc., if they join the ranks of IRS, FBI, etc., people are going to get killed.

[STTAB]

Bottom line though, private business employees work of the company. Public employees work for the people. Reporting on hurricanes, tornadoes, etc., if they join the ranks of IRS, FBI, etc., people are going to get killed.

Actually, a question I would ask is why do we even have this agency? It's unnecessary, and should be shut down in it's entirety. Let CNN , FoxNews, and the like forecast the weather.

[Kathianne]

Actually, a question I would ask is why do we even have this agency? It's unnecessary, and should be shut down in it's entirety. Let CNN , FoxNews, and the like forecast the weather.
Where do you think CNN, FOX and the like get their data?

[STTAB]

Where do you think CNN, FOX and the like get their data?
'
Some of it from the National Weather Service, but not all of it. And they would find another place to get it if they had to.

See , this is why our government is so bloated, mention getting rid of ANY agency and it's met with derision, even though everyone knows the agency is un needed

For God Sakes we literally still have a Bureau of Indian Affairs LOL

[Kathianne]

'
Some of it from the National Weather Service, but not all of it. And they would find another place to get it if they had to.

See , this is why our government is so bloated, mention getting rid of ANY agency and it's met with derision, even though everyone knows the agency is un needed

For God Sakes we literally still have a Bureau of Indian Affairs LOL

Do you actually know how the data is gathered, disseminated, and analyzed? Do you think forecasting, as precise or not as it may be is useless or at least dispensable?

BTW, this has 0 to do with the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

[STTAB]

Do you actually know how the data is gathered, disseminated, and analyzed? Do you think forecasting, as precise or not as it may be is useless or at least dispensable?

BTW, this has 0 to do with the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
I think, scratch that I KNOW that private entities would fill the void if the National Weather Service was disbanded. And of course the Bureau of Indian Affairs has EVERYTHING to do with my post because it is one of a million examples we have of government waste.

[Kathianne]

I think, scratch that I KNOW that private entities would fill the void if the National Weather Service was disbanded. And of course the Bureau of Indian Affairs has EVERYTHING to do with my post because it is one of a million examples we have of government waste.

Why would private companies step in? Ever notice how many 'models' there are for hurricanes are utilized?

https://www.ametsoc.org/ams/index.cfm/about-ams/ams-statements/statements-of-the-ams-in-force/weather-analysis-and-forecasting/

[STTAB]

Why would private companies step in? Ever notice how many 'models' there are for hurricanes are utilized?

https://www.ametsoc.org/ams/index.cfm/about-ams/ams-statements/statements-of-the-ams-in-force/weather-analysis-and-forecasting/

Why do private companies step in and spend hours discussing the weather now?

See, everyone is small government until you bring up doing away with a government agency or program that they like

Pray tell where in the COTUS is the federal government taxed with providing weather alerts to anyone?

[Kathianne]

Why do private companies step in and spend hours discussing the weather now?

See, everyone is small government until you bring up doing away with a government agency or program that they like

Pray tell where in the COTUS is the federal government taxed with providing weather alerts to anyone?

Where are the private companies doing what you say with weather? It's not the news weather forecasters you originally said.

I'm for small government, doing what private can't or is not incentivized to doing. Weather forecasting is one of those. It seems odd for a farmer not to care. Those living on the coasts, those whose living depends upon the seas, etc. care quite a bit.

[STTAB]

Where are the private companies doing what you say with weather? It's not the news weather forecasters you originally said.

I'm for small government, doing what private can't or is not incentivized to doing. Weather forecasting is one of those. It seems odd for a farmer not to care. Those living on the coasts, those whose living depends upon the seas, etc. care quite a bit.


I will say it again, it is not the federal government's job to do what private companies won't do. That's liberal talk. For example, private companies will not provide poor people health insurance with no cost to them, so the liberals believe the federal government should.

Private companies do what they have an incentive to do,and if the Weather Service were shut down, Fox News and or CNN or whomever would have a pretty big incentive to start forecasting the weather. Hell private companies have actually been collecting data on THEIR satelies and selling it to NOAA for about 3 years now.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/09/noaa-issues-first-contracts-private-weather-satellites

I imagine you didn't know that.

But anyway, it's not that big a step from launching your own satellites and collecting the data to sell to the government and just hiring your own weather forecasters to analyze the data in house.

[Kathianne]

I will say it again, it is not the federal government's job to do what private companies won't do. That's liberal talk. For example, private companies will not provide poor people health insurance with no cost to them, so the liberals believe the federal government should.

Private companies do what they have an incentive to do,and if the Weather Service were shut down, Fox News and or CNN or whomever would have a pretty big incentive to start forecasting the weather. Hell private companies have actually been collecting data on THEIR satelies and selling it to NOAA for about 3 years now.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/09/noaa-issues-first-contracts-private-weather-satellites

I imagine you didn't know that.

But anyway, it's not that big a step from launching your own satellites and collecting the data to sell to the government and just hiring your own weather forecasters to analyze the data in house.

Actually it seems to me that the #1 business of government is to protect the lives of its citizens, but that's the liberal me I guess. :rolleyes:

[STTAB]

Actually it seems to me that the #1 business of government is to protect the lives of its citizens, but that's the liberal me I guess. :rolleyes:


I mean that was a Pete sized ignoring of what I posted so...........:coffee:

[Kathianne]

I mean that was a Pete sized ignoring of what I posted so...........:coffee:

Not going along with where you wish to lead, is not liberal. It's not stupid. It's not aggressive.

[Elessar]

Actually, a question I would ask is why do we even have this agency? It's unnecessary, and should be shut down in it's entirety. Let CNN , FoxNews, and the like forecast the weather.

Maybe you should Google NWS and see all of it's functions.

To name a few:

National Weather Service;
National Fisheries Conservation;
Marine Mammals protection;
Partner with USGS (US Geolological Survey)for the Earthquake and Tsunami Warning Centers;
Partner with the USGS again for volcano observation;
Partner with the EPA and USCG for pollution response;
Partner with the USCG to assist in Search and Rescue Planning;
Partner with FEMA and various state and local Offices of Emergency Services;
Provide Tide Tables for use by the public and responding agencies for all States along the coasts;
Provide Great Lakes weather conditions for those states;
Provide tornado, blizzard, flooding, and severe weather reports to all states.

That is just a short list that comes to mind

[icansayit]

Actually it seems to me that the #1 business of government is to protect the lives of its citizens, but that's the liberal me I guess. :rolleyes:

Government is not a business. If Repubs, and Democrats would follow that premise...They would support the President in Securing Our Borders, and actually doing the Work they were elected to do instead of playing Nadler games of Yes we are Impeaching everybody who doesn't agree with them, or who took HILLARY'S chance away.

[Kathianne]

Government is not a business. If Repubs, and Democrats would follow that premise...They would support the President in Securing Our Borders, and actually doing the Work they were elected to do instead of playing Nadler games of Yes we are Impeaching everybody who doesn't agree with them, or who took HILLARY'S chance away.

So you disagree that the #1 business, responsibility is to protect the citizens? Ok then.

[Kathianne]

Maybe you should Google NWS and see all of it's functions.

To name a few:

National Weather Service;
National Fisheries Conservation;
Marine Mammals protection;
Partner with USGS (US Geolological Survey)for the Earthquake and Tsunami Warning Centers;
Partner with the USGS again for volcano observation;
Partner with the EPA and USCG for pollution response;
Partner with the USCG to assist in Search and Rescue Planning;
Partner with FEMA and various state and local Offices of Emergency Services;
Provide Tide Tables for use by the public and responding agencies for all States along the coasts;
Provide Great Lakes weather conditions for those states;
Provide tornado, blizzard, flooding, and severe weather reports to all states.

That is just a short list that comes to mind


Obviously most of those have to do with government involved uses. To my mind, it seems to me that even with all the advanced technologies, when it comes to military, meteorologists are still of import.

[icansayit]

So you disagree that the #1 business, responsibility is to protect the citizens? Ok then.



Before you drew a line through the word.. The U.S.Government is Not a Business. That was what I said. Did not say anything else. So, what would you have me disagree with now?

[Kathianne]

Before you drew a line through the word.. The U.S.Government is Not a Business. That was what I said. Did not say anything else. So, what would you have me disagree with now?

Do you read the posts or just troll? You disagreed with a 'word,' I struck the word in favor of what you said, and you still want to quibble?

Ok then.

There may be reasons that people so often choose not to respond to you. Lesson learned.

[Elessar]

Maybe you should Google NWS and see all of it's functions.

To name a few:

National Weather Service;
National Fisheries Conservation;
Marine Mammals protection;
Partner with USGS (US Geolological Survey)for the Earthquake and Tsunami Warning Centers;
Partner with the USGS again for volcano observation;
Partner with the EPA and USCG for pollution response;
Partner with the USCG to assist in Search and Rescue Planning;
Partner with FEMA and various state and local Offices of Emergency Services;
Provide Tide Tables for use by the public and responding agencies for all States along the coasts;
Provide Great Lakes weather conditions for those states;
Provide tornado, blizzard, flooding, and severe weather reports to all states.

That is just a short list that comes to mind

Let me add:

Tidal reading stations at coastal harbors and river entrances...water temperatures as well;
Sensors on rivers to gauge flow and river height...same sensors report water temperatures as well;
NOAA Weather buoys anchored off the coasts of USA, Territories, and Canada;
DART Buoys anchored all along the coast to gauge probable tsunami wave generation;
Satellite images of the oceans to help predict storm or bad weather arrivals.

What private entity can do all of that?
All of those others depend on NWS/NOAA to transmit the data, whether it be
Weather Channel, Weather Underground, or major media networks. Add newspapers as well.

[Kathianne]

Let me add:

Tidal reading stations at coastal harbors and river entrances...water temperatures as well;
Sensors on rivers to gauge flow and river height...same sensors report water temperatures as well;
NOAA Weather buoys anchored off the coasts of USA, Territories, and Canada;
DART Buoys anchored all along the coast to gauge probable tsunami wave generation;
Satellite images of the oceans to help predict storm or bad weather arrivals.

What private entity can do all of that?
All of those others depend on NWS/NOAA to transmit the data, whether it be
Weather Channel, Weather Underground, or major media networks. Add newspapers as well.

and where is the $$$ to be made by private industries?

[icansayit]

Do you read the posts or just troll? You disagreed with a 'word,' I struck the word in favor of what you said, and you still want to quibble?

Ok then.

There may be reasons that people so often choose not to respond to you. Lesson learned.


Seems like you are the only one, having trouble with my remarks. Lesson learned. You bet. BYE.

[Elessar]

and where is the $$$ to be made by private industries?

Non-existent. NOAA/NWS does not charge for the services provided.

Add to my lists, International Ice Patrol to plot icebergs coming
down from the Arctic. USCG, Canada, and Denmark benefit from the tracking
provided, mostly recorded by USCG and Canadian Aircraft.

[Kathianne]

Non-existent. NOAA/NWS does not charge for the services provided.

Add to my lists, International Ice Patrol to plot icebergs coming
down from the Arctic. USCG, Canada, and Denmark benefit from the tracking
provided, mostly recorded by USCG and Canadian Aircraft.

Yes, I know about NOAA and no charge-it's a government funded agency.

I was talking about STTAB asserting that private entrepreneurs would step in to replace. I don't think so. I do think NOAA is a necessary department.

[Elessar]

Yes, I know about NOAA and no charge-it's a government funded agency.

I was talking about STTAB asserting that private entrepreneurs would step in to replace. I don't think so. I do think NOAA is a necessary department.

They would ruin all of the areas I outlined.

A sample NOAA web site and all of the things they do. They will vary depending on their locations
for a NOAA/ NWS location:

https://www.weather.gov/eka/

[STTAB]

Maybe you should Google NWS and see all of it's functions.

To name a few:

National Weather Service;
National Fisheries Conservation;
Marine Mammals protection;
Partner with USGS (US Geolological Survey)for the Earthquake and Tsunami Warning Centers;
Partner with the USGS again for volcano observation;
Partner with the EPA and USCG for pollution response;
Partner with the USCG to assist in Search and Rescue Planning;
Partner with FEMA and various state and local Offices of Emergency Services;
Provide Tide Tables for use by the public and responding agencies for all States along the coasts;
Provide Great Lakes weather conditions for those states;
Provide tornado, blizzard, flooding, and severe weather reports to all states.

That is just a short list that comes to mind

NONE of those things have anything to do with anything the federal government is tasked with in the COTUS.

[Elessar]

NONE of those things have anything to do with anything the federal government is tasked with in the COTUS.

There was no NOAA / NWS when the COTUS was penned, so a straw man's argument.

[icansayit]

How in the World did ANY OF US, or OUR PARENTS, and GRANDPARENTS survive....before all of those Beuracracy-led things appeared?

[Kathianne]

There was no NOAA / NWS when the COTUS was penned, so a straw man's argument.

Of course, with that reasoning, there shouldn't be an FAA either. No NASA. No FCC.

[Elessar]

Of course, with that reasoning, there shouldn't be an FAA either. No NASA. No FCC.

Exactly.

The duties and responsibilities of the agencies are covered by Federal Law,
in the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations.

Web site is easy to find if any one doubts me, and they comply with the COTUS
if anyone cares to research and not just spout off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Federal_Regulations

[STTAB]

There was no NOAA / NWS when the COTUS was penned, so a straw man's argument.

WTF? That's exactly the point. The federal government is ONLY supposed to provide those things which are EXPLICITLY empowered to the federal government in the COTUS.

I mean the very least you could have done was acknowledge that the federal government IS constrained by the COTUS and then maybe argued that hurricanes and other weather phenomenon affect the national security of the US or interstate trade or something else that the US government is entitled to regulate instead of some weak ass "well this organization wasn't around then" BS

[STTAB]

Of course, with that reasoning, there shouldn't be an FAA either. No NASA. No FCC.


There shouldn't be. That's my entire point. Our federal government is bloated with agencies which not only in most cases don't do what they set out to do, but also probably aren't even really constitutional.

[Elessar]

There shouldn't be. That's my entire point. Our federal government is bloated with agencies which not only in most cases don't do what they set out to do, but also probably aren't even really constitutional.
The USCFR is constitutional and recognized as the defacto Law of The Land.

[STTAB]

The USCFR is constitutional and recognized as the defacto Law of The Land.


I don't think you even understand the subject.

The USCFR relies on the "nondelegation doctrine" to exist , and in fact the COTUS itself was meant to delegate powers. Says so right in the 10th Amendment, ANY powers not given to the feds via the COTUS are reserved for the states or the people themselves. The government isn't supposed to be able to just say "okay we want to regulate this , so we've included it in the USCFR, that means it's law" in fact that's even worse, because that's just Congress creating an agency and telling THEM to write laws. We have multiple executive branch agencies writing law, which is supposed to be reserved for Congress to do, and you're okay with that?

Da fuq?


Simple test, what if a Democrat President instructed the BATF to write a regulation in the USCFR outlawing AR15s. Hey that would be constitutional too right? Wait a minute, that's different.........Somehow.

PS - The federal government is routinely sued over the "nondelegation clause" And in fact in Wayman vs Southard way back in 1825 the Supreme Court ruled explicitly that Congress could delegate SOME powers, but not any explicitly legislative powers IE Congress couldn't empower another branch to make law.

In fact it wasn't until the 1930s that Congress seriously started ceding their own authority over to various federal agencies in terms of writing law. Before that the few times they tried SCOTUS knocked the law down.

[Kathianne]

There shouldn't be. That's my entire point. Our federal government is bloated with agencies which not only in most cases don't do what they set out to do, but also probably aren't even really constitutional.
I do not disagree with your premise on eliminating some of the agencies. What I do disagree with is the lack of discernment of what are true responsibilities of each level of government and weighing which responsibilities should fall on the individual.

[STTAB]

I do not disagree with your premise on eliminating some of the agencies. What I do disagree with is the lack of discernment of what are true responsibilities of each level of government and weighing which responsibilities should fall on the individual.

And likewise I don't disagree (aka I agree) that we should be discerning and not just cut agencies willy nilly. That's why I said earlier just saying 'hey this is in the federal guidelines that makes it okay" is ridiculous, he could have at least make an argument that forecasting and tracking storms was related to national security or the general welfare of the country, or something.

[Kathianne]

And likewise I don't disagree (aka I agree) that we should be discerning and not just cut agencies willy nilly. That's why I said earlier just saying 'hey this is in the federal guidelines that makes it okay" is ridiculous, he could have at least make an argument that forecasting and tracking storms was related to national security or the general welfare of the country, or something.
I did. Days ago.

[STTAB]

I did. Days ago.

You did, the other poster just flatly said "it's legal"

That's what I commented on.

But even at that, is it really a matter of national interest? Seems to me like it's more of a matter of regional interest. As you well know politicians are very good at ginning up excuses as to why they should have their pet programs or laws, and we aren't near careful enough in our scrutiny as to what they are doing.

[Kathianne]

You did, the other poster just flatly said "it's legal"

That's what I commented on.

But even at that, is it really a matter of national interest? Seems to me like it's more of a matter of regional interest. As you well know politicians are very good at ginning up excuses as to why they should have their pet programs or laws, and we aren't near careful enough in our scrutiny as to what they are doing.

Yes, it is national interest. "Saving lives" IS the business responsibility of government. The costs of not being forewarned are too devastating in both long and short term.

Weather forecasting is crucial still when the navy/air force are needed.

Can different agencies be combined, responsibilities and costs pared? Without a doubt. I've never been convinced that the Federal government has any good purpose in education, it should be at a local level. In any case, the government will always expand without pressure to reverse or at least slow down.

However, it shouldn't be done willy nilly by proclamation of people who really don't know the nitty gritty of what is done. Some, even most of what an agency is charged with, may be non-essential, but there may be some that are crucial.

[STTAB]

Yes, it is national interest. "Saving lives" IS the business responsibility of government. The costs of not being forewarned are too devastating in both long and short term.

Weather forecasting is crucial still when the navy/air force are needed.

Can different agencies be combined, responsibilities and costs pared? Without a doubt. I've never been convinced that the Federal government has any good purpose in education, it should be at a local level. In any case, the government will always expand without pressure to reverse or at least slow down.

However, it shouldn't be done willy nilly by proclamation of people who really don't know the nitty gritty of what is done. Some, even most of what an agency is charged with, may be non-essential, but there may be some that are crucial.


BINGO, you hit it right on the head there, Much or even most of what this agency does can be done by someone else.

Inf act , as originally intended the the National Weather Service was in fact part of the Department of War (now the Dept of Defense) , however now it's in the fucking Commerce Department, but never fear because the USAF has their own weather forecasters who do not rely on NWS for anything.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/veterans-day-military-forecasters-provide-critical-weather-information-to-protect-and-serve/70006597

[Abbey Marie]

If we are going to argue for the elimination of a federal agency, I’ll start with the Department of Education. Even though schools were pretty much always around.

[Elessar]

BINGO, you hit it right on the head there, Much or even most of what this agency does can be done by someone else.

Inf act , as originally intended the the National Weather Service was in fact part of the Department of War (now the Dept of Defense) , however now it's in the fucking Commerce Department, but never fear because the USAF has their own weather forecasters who do not rely on NWS for anything.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/veterans-day-military-forecasters-provide-critical-weather-information-to-protect-and-serve/70006597

Have you read nothing I wrote? No other agency does more to supply the people and other Government branches with
weather data - period. The media glean off those notices and post what they wish in the form of opinion.

I don't care what military expertise you claim to have. I know full well what NOAA and NWS do to share
data immediately to all branches, USGS, FEMA, and the sitting administration in D.C.

Do you think the White House and Pentagon just declare Lights Out after 1700? Just as in Command Centers,
the watches in these facilities are 24/7.

Don't know about your planning experience, but you are far off base with this issue.

[Kathianne]

If we are going to argue for the elimination of a federal agency, I’ll start with the Department of Education. Even though schools were pretty much always around.

We picked the same one. LOL!
It's only been around since 1979 and look at the flotsam in its wake.

[STTAB]

If we are going to argue for the elimination of a federal agency, I’ll start with the Department of Education. Even though schools were pretty much always around.
I think the DoE could go away entirely and not be missed as well. Or at least be paired down to an agency which basically just says "these minimum standards must be met" so that we can ensure that kids in New York are receiving the same level of education as kids in Mississippi Oh wait, that isn't even happening WITH the giant bloated Department of Education we have now.