letting AQ spread

[truthmatters]

4

[manu1959]

i hate to tell these idiots but that already happened....

look at the attacks in Russia, the Philippines, Bali, Israel, Pakistan, etc....

this has been going on since the 70's.....

these people are like fucking weather men...."well, yesterday it rained"....

[truthmatters]

4

[manu1959]

http://www.iiss.org/staffexpertise/list-experts-by-subject

Here is a list of their experts.

What about them makes them idiots.

i don't give a flying fuck who they are....they act like islam has not been at war with the west since the 70's and they calim it only just started 8 years ago....

it is like everyone in their 20's.....8 years ago you were 12....you have no experience .....

[truthmatters]

4

[manu1959]

So you think their expertice which greatly out wieghts anything you have is worthless because they dont agree with you?

what makes you think my expertise is any less than any one of them?....that said.....

what i said was they reached their conclusion 30 years to late...it has been like this for 30 years....the only reason you don't know that is you have not been in the real world that long....

[truthmatters]

4

[hjmick]

what makes you think my expertise is any less than any one of them?....that said.....

what i said was they reached their conclusion 30 years to late...it has been like this for 30 years....the only reason you don't know that is you have not been in the real world that long....

You could, theoretically, trace the history of problems the U.S. has had with Islamic fundamentalists to the Barbary Pirates in 1784. More recently, one could easily make a strong case for November 4, 1979 as being the most significant start of our more recent confrontations with Islamic fundamentalism in general and Iran specifically.

[manu1959]

You could, theoretically, trace the history of problems the U.S. has had with Islamic fundamentalists to the Barbary Pirates in 1784. More recently, one could easily make a strong case for November 4, 1979 as being the most significant start of our more recent confrontations with Islamic fundamentalism in general and Iran specifically.

well said....

you can actually go back to the greek and roman wars in the middle east….followed by the moors invasion of spain....followed by the crusades....followed by european colonization of the middle east and africa....followed by ww i and ww ii....followed by the formation of israel.....followed by a series of middle eastern wars....followed by the expansion of islam as a world religion

[jimnyc]

They know more than you can ever hope to know about the facts.

You should be the LAST person on this board speaking to anyone about facts! :laugh2:

[manu1959]

They know more than you can ever hope to know about the facts.

really? who do you know that? what facts do i not know that they know?

or are you just lying again.....

[truthmatters]

4

[jimnyc]

So do you think these experts provide nothing to the debate also?

To DEBATE? No. I don't think the US should be making decisions based on what other countries might think. I'll give it as much thought as I'll bet the generals on the ground will - nada.

[Abbey Marie]

They know more than you can ever hope to know about the facts.

How do you know this?

Do you know them personally?

Do you know Manu personally?

Please back up your statement, and be specific.

[gabosaurus]

Great points, Abbey.

This thread topic is not far from the truth. The former leader of the U.S. military in Iraq said so today. Even some GOP reps are questioning whether the U.S. still has any control in the Middle East.

[theHawk]

http://tinyurl.com/2gtbv5

This well respected think tank says Bush has

U.S. let al-Qaida deepen roots, group claims
In its annual report, think tank is pessimistic about Middle East

LONDON - A respected think tank concluded Wednesday that the United States has lost influence as a result of failings over the Iraq war, encouraging its detractors — including Iran and Russia — and jeopardizing stability in Asia and the Middle East.

In its annual report on global security, the International Institute of Strategic Studies painted a bleak picture of conflict in the Middle East, an emboldened al-Qaida and growing Islamic radicalism across Europe. New European leaders offer hope of a fresh approach in the fight against terrorism, the report said, but success is unlikely with the White House struggling to command global respect.

With weak leadership from Washington, "the risk is that simmering international tensions will spill over and endanger global prosperity," the report said.

Yet in their bashing of Bush's handling of things, I see no recommendation of what exactly to do about the Islamic or terrorist threat.

Why is it that certain people think there is some easy solution to this threat to our culture? Do you think there is some easy way for the U.S. or the West in general to take on Islam without it getting ugly? If so then by all means lay out the plans for us.

No matter what we do or how we go about this conflict it is not going to be pretty. I know that liberals believe we can just fly some men in monkey suits to the middle east, do a show and dance in front of cameras and sign some paper and pretend everything is wonderful, but its never going to change the ideology of Islam. Its not going to stop or slow the spread of Islam. The Islamists are determined to destroy the west, whether it be through terrorism from its extermists, or by mass immigration by the 'moderates.'

The question that western culture is going to have to ask itself is how are we going to deal with this threat. Bush seems to think we can show them western democracy and have democracy spread throughout the middle east, which should make them more economically prosperous and thus ease both terrorism, and immigration from the moderates seeking a better economic opportunity. Although its noble in concept, I think its far too liberal and unrealistic. In the end, I think we're going to have to wage a world war against all Islamic states and utterly destroy them before we can call an end to this clash of cultures.

[truthmatters]

4

[manu1959]

So your solution is world war?

How do you fight ideas with bombs?

drop the bombs on those with the bad ideas....

[truthmatters]

4

[truthmatters]

4

[manu1959]

Do you even listen to what you say?

You want to kill all Muslim people and their childern to fix this?

Do you realise how much you sound like the very people we truely are trying to stop?

To stop the monsters you want us to become monsters?

yep....drop the bombs on those with the bad ideas....

did say all muslims....didn't say children......

i said; those with bad ideas.....

you know, the ones that dragged our boys through the streets of somalia....killed people at the US embassies....killed people on the USS cole.....killed people at a bali night club....flew airplanes into buildings....killed school children in russia.....cut off reports heads on video.....killed people on buses in london....killed people on trains in spain....you know those bad people....

yes, bomb them....shoot them all.....for i assure you if they get the chance they will kill you....

[manu1959]

I submitt that these several peoples brains can contain more than his one brain.

Do you think differently?

well i knew that they west had been at war with the east a lot longer than the past 6 years....and all of them seemed to think that was not the case....so yes my one brain is better than all of theirs....

pssssssssssst...they must not be open to new information

[Gaffer]

Do you even listen to what you say?

You want to kill all Muslim people and their childern to fix this?

Do you realise how much you sound like the very people we truely are trying to stop?

To stop the monsters you want us to become monsters?

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

There's a time to put on the monster persona. When your done using it, you put it aside. That's the difference between us and them. We can put it aside, they are monsters to the bone.

[theHawk]

So your solution is world war?

How do you fight ideas with bombs?

Yes, bomb all that believe in the idea.

Still haven't heard your solution.

[theHawk]

Do you even listen to what you say?

You want to kill all Muslim people and their childern to fix this?

Do you realise how much you sound like the very people we truely are trying to stop?

To stop the monsters you want us to become monsters?


The idea is you bomb them until they give up their beliefs in spreading Islam. If they can ever get to the point where they are happy to be contained to the middle east, then we will see peace with them.

[truthmatters]

4

[jimnyc]

you have no morals

And you have no brains. :)

[Gaffer]

Why dont you insist the Republican party run on this platform and see if they get elelcted.






you have no morals

That's why they call me a sanctimonious prick. If its a question of morales verses survival, I chose survival.

[manu1959]

Why dont you insist the Republican party run on this platform and see if they get elelcted.

you have no morals

well you all are running on lets quit .....

do you belive they will spare your life because you claim you have morals?

[Abbey Marie]

I submitt that these several peoples brains can contain more than his one brain.

Do you think differently?


Quantity does not equal or surpass quality.

Do you think differently?

[darin]

TM - we all know you're full of crap before reading your post.

"LETTING" AQ spread. Letting. As if GWB ALLOWS it, as if he has control over it.

Stupid, stupid, stupid way to start a 'discussion'.

[gabosaurus]

And continue one.

[theHawk]

Why dont you insist the Republican party run on this platform and see if they get elelcted.


Nobody would run on saying that, because its too politically incorrect. Most people will vote for what they want to hear. Nobody wants to hear the truth about this conflict, because its only bad news. Nobody wants to admit to themselves that we will have to get our hands dirty to be victorious in this war with Islam.

[retiredman]

TM - we all know you're full of crap before reading your post.

"LETTING" AQ spread. Letting. As if GWB ALLOWS it, as if he has control over it.

Stupid, stupid, stupid way to start a 'discussion'.

If I fail to use Scott's Turf Control on my lawn, and crabcrass spreads everywhere, have I allowed the crabgrass to spread?

[Gaffer]

If I fail to use Scott's Turf Control on my lawn, and crabcrass spreads everywhere, have I allowed the crabgrass to spread?

If that was what it took to get rid of it, you did.

[stephanie]

Well....blow me over with a feather...

The United States... is damned if we do...

And damned if we don't...

Go figure....:laugh2:

[darin]

If I fail to use Scott's Turf Control on my lawn, and crabcrass spreads everywhere, have I allowed the crabgrass to spread?

No. Don't play dumb. Seriously - you KNOW I'm right w/ that post. You are arguing for argument's sake.

[truthmatters]

4

[darin]

Why are we at "war" with terror?


Because they want to kill us. They want to kill everyone who is not muslim. It's their nature.



Are we trying to stop it or increase its rage?


We aren't trying hard enough (for my taste), but we're trying to kill as many of them as we can.


What Bush is doing is making it worse.


Making what worse? Terrorists' Rage? Why do you blame bush? Why not blame the terrorists. Said another way - Nobody FORCES Muslims to become terrorists. They choose that path. You blaming George Bush for Muslim fathers teaching their kids to be suicide bombers is perhaps the most-stupid thing I've read recently.



That means we need to stop doing what he just wants to KEEP doing.


You honestly feel if "we" remove our forces from Iraq, the terrorists will be appeased and decide to stop killing people?


He is doing it wrong and we are paying the price with increased terror.

Were has terror increased? What has increased? By which scale are you measuring? WHAT are you measuring?

[Dilloduck]

No its just that you are wrong in your asessments and the we are not at war with Islam and a war on Islam would be utter stupidity.
Ask the terror experts.



Why are we at "war" with terror?

Are we trying to stop it or increase its rage?

What Bush is doing is making it worse.

That means we need to stop doing what he just wants to KEEP doing.

He is doing it wrong and we are paying the price with increased terror.

How should he do it "right" ?

[truthmatters]

4

[theHawk]

No its just that you are wrong in your asessments and the we are not at war with Islam and a war on Islam would be utter stupidity.
You speak as if it is 'we' who would declare war with Islam. Islam has declared war on us already. Ignoring that would be "utter stupidity."

[Monkeybone]

http://tinyurl.com/oqlgw

Our own intell found the Iraq war has caused terrror.

We need to stop the actions which have increased the terror and that means coming home from Iraq.

so we come home and let them have free range and trainging grounds? how will it magically stop if we leave?

are you counting the increase of terror like in other countries? and then to turn and blame it on us is just a smear campaign.

[truthmatters]

4

[Monkeybone]

what so the UN can write a letter telling them how mad they are at them?

and i think it was MFM in another thread mentioned osmething like this : ok, we leave and they fight each other over there, someone will win eventually. and then what? they start moving out again so we do it all over again? it tath acceptable? just keep beating them down evey few years?

[truthmatters]

4

[Monkeybone]

so you want a big civil war that just continues?

if we pull out of Iraq would we go anywhere else? and should we pull out of Afganistan also?

[truthmatters]

4

[Monkeybone]

i agree on that. we should have completely finished with Afgan before anything else. i think that Iraq should have been an eventual. and i agree with Gunny (i think), we should taken out Saddam and then just left.

and i kinda agree with the Civil War thing, who gives a shit. they more they Kill each other, i do think the more they will be distracted. but for how long is my question/main concern.

[Abbey Marie]

If I fail to use Scott's Turf Control on my lawn, and crabcrass spreads everywhere, have I allowed the crabgrass to spread?

The proper course of action is to go to the UN and ask them if it is OK to eradicate the crabgrass before it spreads and kills any more of your fine lawn. Let them debate the issue for several years while the crabgrass spreads all over the lawn. Then withdraw your emergency household funds and kill it all yourself anyway.

[Monkeybone]

so.....nuke'em? is that Scott's Turf stuff? or just massive carpet bombing so we can set up bases to live there? haha

[stephanie]

The proper course of action is to go to the UN and ask them if it is OK to eradicate the crabgrass before it spreads and kills any more of your fine lawn. Let them debate the issue for several years while the crabgrass spreads all over the lawn. Then withdraw your emergency household funds and kill it all yourself anyway.

Excellent...

:laugh2:

[truthmatters]

4

[Abbey Marie]

How will they have time to ruin our lawn when they are fighting each other like they have for generations?

:lmao:

Oh my god!

[Gaffer]

In 2001 Afghanistan was in the middle of a civil war. The northern alliance was fighting the taliban. After 911 we went into Afghanistan and joined the northern alliance against the taliban. We took sides in a civil war. The taliban were defeated and driven out of the cities and most of the country. But they are still around and the civil war continues as the taliban tries to take the country back. We are helping build a new nation there now. 45 taliban were killed yesterday by Afghan and NATO forces. The fighting continues as the nation building continues. al queda and taliban forces continue to try to disrupt the operations of the government. They take hostages, they attack civilians, they plant bombs. They do all the things terrorists do.

So how is this different from iraq?

[Monkeybone]

not very much Gaf.

so it is ok that we fight on two fronts? or if we weren't in Iraq would we still hear complaints?

[Gaffer]

not very much Gaf.

so it is ok that we fight on two fronts? or if we weren't in Iraq would we still hear complaints?

We can fight on many fronts, we already do. Most are just not publicized.

I think if we weren't in iraq the libs would be calling for withdrawal from Afghanistan and complaining that saddam is still in power.

The third front will be opening in the not to distant future with iran. taking them down will not be difficult. Occupying and establishing a new government will be the hard part. And the libs will moan and groan again.

[truthmatters]

4

[TheStripey1]

You could, theoretically, trace the history of problems the U.S. has had with Islamic fundamentalists to the Barbary Pirates in 1784. More recently, one could easily make a strong case for November 4, 1979 as being the most significant start of our more recent confrontations with Islamic fundamentalism in general and Iran specifically.

unless you wanted to go back to the fifties when we alledgedly had a hand in the overthrow of Iran's democratically elected government... CIA involvement, all very hush hush doncha know...

or you could just continue to spout the pablum you have been fed all these years...

:dance:

[TheStripey1]

In 2001 Afghanistan was in the middle of a civil war. The northern alliance was fighting the taliban. After 911 we went into Afghanistan and joined the northern alliance against the taliban. We took sides in a civil war. The taliban were defeated and driven out of the cities and most of the country. But they are still around and the civil war continues as the taliban tries to take the country back. We are helping build a new nation there now. 45 taliban were killed yesterday by Afghan and NATO forces. The fighting continues as the nation building continues. al queda and taliban forces continue to try to disrupt the operations of the government. They take hostages, they attack civilians, they plant bombs. They do all the things terrorists do.

So how is this different from iraq?

Terrorists trained in Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11?

How about the opium production, gaffer? The Taliban benefits from it and yet, the US does little or nothing to abate the flow of illicit opium... do they want the taliban funding Al Qaeda or what?

[Gaffer]

Terrorists trained in Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11?

How about the opium production, gaffer? The Taliban benefits from it and yet, the US does little or nothing to abate the flow of illicit opium... do they want the taliban funding Al Qaeda or what?

I believe the US has left it up to the Afghan's as a sovereign nation to deal with the opium. It is after all the only export Afghan has.

Other than that matter how is iraq and Afghan any real difference? They are fighting the same enemy in both places. They both have pacified areas of the country, while other areas remain contested. Both had formerly been run by despot governments. There are more similarities than differences. Yet one has the blessing of the libs while the other doesn't. And of the two iraq is the more important.