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Gunny
05-26-2020, 07:51 PM
This would be one of those times the President should have slapped his own hand instead of hitting "enter".

Having said that, Twitter should STFU. Flagging them as "false" would be pretty-much a lie as they don't know the answer. If they can't flag as "opinion" then they need to leave it alone.


OAN Newsroom
UPDATED 1:23 PM PT — Tuesday, May 26, 2020A years old case involving former congressman and now TV host Joe Scarborough found its way under the president’s microscope. In a series of tweets (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1265271275007721472) last week, he alleged Scarborough may have been involved in the death of his staffer Lori Klausutis who was found dead in her office in 2001.
The allegations resurfaced Tuesday morning when the president wrote, “the opening of a cold case against psycho Joe Scarborough was not a Donald Trump original thought, this has been going on for years, long before I joined the chorus.”
He went on to call the TV host a “nut job,” adding that there are “so many unanswered and obvious questions” that he wouldn’t bring up now. President Trump then noted that law enforcement may eventually look into those questions.
An autopsy report found that the 28-year-old had an undiagnosed heart condition, which led her to faint and hit her head on her desk. She was discovered on the floor the following morning.

Klausutis’ widower Timothy Klausutis is now asking for the president’s tweets to be removed from Twitter. He’s claiming President Trump used her death for political gain.
In a letter to Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey, published Tuesday morning, the widower said the presidents message is spreading falsehoods about his late wife’s passing by connecting Scarborough to her death.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1245949640060497920/kzexpq4f_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews)Alex Salvi@alexsalvinews
(https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews)

(https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews/status/1265311006856605698)


The widower of Lori Klausutis, whose death Pres. Trump has used to smear MSNBC host Joe Scarborough, is asking Twitter to remove the president’s tweets on the subject.

Twitter says it will not.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EY9Jp0HUcAEtXUh?format=jpg&name=360x360 (https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews/status/1265311006856605698/photo/1)https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EY9Jp0KU4AAAJew?format=jpg&name=360x360 (https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews/status/1265311006856605698/photo/1)https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EY9Jp0HUYAAIm84?format=jpg&name=360x360 (https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews/status/1265311006856605698/photo/1)




374 (https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=1265311006856605698)
10:57 AM - May 26, 2020 (https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews/status/1265311006856605698)
Twitter Ads info and privacy (https://support.twitter.com/articles/20175256)





269 people are talking about this


(https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews/status/1265311006856605698)







Twitter responded to those calls in a statement Tuesday. A spokesperson said the company is looking at ways to address the president’s tweets regarding the death of the congressional staffer.

While Twitter has not said how it will handle the president’s tweets, it said it could flag his messages as false. Meanwhile, Jack Dorsey himself has yet to speak out on the matter.
https://www.oann.com/twitter-looking-at-ways-to-address-presidents-tweets-regarding-death-of-fmr-scarborough-staffer/

LongTermGuy
05-26-2020, 08:11 PM
`Twitter made a HUGE mistake. They have now injected themselves into a US election and decided to become

editorialists.....rather than a platform. ALL platform protections should be immediately revoked and Twitter should be

treated as a publisher. They did this to themselves...`

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EY-TdV3WkAAL0wF?format=jpg&name=small

Gunny
05-26-2020, 08:43 PM
I honestly know nothing more about twitter than it is social media. My "social media" begins and ends with this board. It is just my opinion that Trump should have said nothing, and Twitter shouldn't compound the issue by involving itself as the arbiter of truth in the matter.

It isn't okay, IMO, for someone to have someone else's comments flagged, removed or otherwise messed with simply because one doesn't like or agree with what is there. Counter the comment, if one can, or STFU with the whining.

LongTermGuy
05-26-2020, 08:47 PM
I honestly know nothing more about twitter than it is social media. My "social media" begins and ends with this board. It is just my opinion that Trump should have said nothing, and Twitter shouldn't compound the issue by involving itself as the arbiter of truth in the matter.

It isn't okay, IMO, for someone to have someone else's comments flagged, removed or otherwise messed with simply because one doesn't like or agree with what is there. Counter the comment, if one can, or STFU with the whining.


Relax all is good Gunny....were all sharing opinions here....My post above was not directed at you...

Here is a little something extra...:thumb:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EY-ABLgWsAY4cjh?format=jpg&name=large

SassyLady
05-27-2020, 01:35 AM
He's so pissed at Scarborough he is trying to hit back hard. I think he forgets he's President and responds as a regular person would. He has to stop that! He needs to think long term results instead of immediate satisfaction.

I'm pretty disgusted with him right now because he's making it so hard to keep supporting him.

Kathianne
05-27-2020, 01:44 AM
He's so pissed at Scarborough he is trying to hit back hard. I think he forgets he's President and responds as a regular person would. He has to stop that! He needs to think long term results instead of immediate satisfaction.

I'm pretty disgusted with him right now because he's making it so hard to keep supporting him.

Yeah, there's always been that. He's just lucky that the Dems have been so off the wall, they make him look almost normal.

Face it, everyday folks would not tweet the crap he does. He's the f'ing President and seriously makes some middle schoolers look mature.

SassyLady
05-27-2020, 01:56 AM
Yeah, there's always been that. He's just lucky that the Dems have been so off the wall, they make him look almost normal.

Face it, everyday folks would not tweet the crap he does. He's the f'ing President and seriously makes some middle schoolers look mature.

I don't Twitter, Instagram or any of that other crap, including FB for last couple years, because people say things they would never say in person. Which comes back to bite them eventually.

LongTermGuy
05-27-2020, 07:49 AM
He's so pissed at Scarborough he is trying to hit back hard. I think he forgets he's President and responds as a regular person would. He has to stop that! He needs to think long term results instead of immediate satisfaction.

I'm pretty disgusted with him right now because he's making it so hard to keep supporting him.




**Trump got elected because he is "one of us"....not a plastic boring..polished phony....Twitter is the best way to communicate with `us`...Trump works hard working for free....Trump can do "regular" and President when needed...and thats what makes him different ...


If anyone who has any doubt about supporting Trump
**(after all he has done to this point)
Please ease your pain and get on with it....vote for Joe Biden 2020 and his handlers...

Evmetro
05-27-2020, 08:46 AM
I'm starting to understand why I keep getting the vibe that some of the righties on this site are really commies deep down inside. Something smells like rhinos around here.

Black Diamond
05-27-2020, 09:03 AM
I'm starting to understand why I keep getting the vibe that some of the righties on this site are really commies deep down inside. Something smells like rhinos around here.


https://youtu.be/z0YpTfXZdyo

Evmetro
05-27-2020, 09:14 AM
https://youtu.be/z0YpTfXZdyo

Commies operate the dark like cockroaches do. When the lights get flipped on, they scatter and scurry off to dark hiding spots. They tend to peek once in awhile from the safety of their dark hiding spots, and that's when I can spot them. There are commies on this site who are very concerned about my presence here, because they know I will eventually flush them out into the light.

jimnyc
05-27-2020, 10:27 AM
Scarbo and his dog partner Mika have had some nasty attacks on Trump.

So he hits back by mentioning what was already a news story out there. And little mika loses it and says she is running to twitter to tattle on him. WTF?

Trump should stay away from the shit wallowing they do to him, but after endless attacks he replies in kind, and they don't like it and can't handle it.

Trump IS wrong in how he handles himself, not what I want or expect. But he's done nothing different than others. And if it was just a few times, I would say he's president and needs to be above it. But these folks NEVER cease and they want him out of office, so I have less of a problem seeing him fight back and not giving in to their BS.

Gunny
05-27-2020, 10:29 AM
Relax all is good Gunny....were all sharing opinions here....My post above was not directed at you...

Here is a little something extra...:thumb:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EY-ABLgWsAY4cjh?format=jpg&name=largeI'm always relaxed. When I'm not, I'm surely not logged in on the board. I got enough crap to do in real life that if I come up with some excess energy I'm likely not going to spend it typing at a screen :)

I have been outspoken about someone needing to take the President's phone, twitter account ot what have you away since 2015. Nothing has happened to change that opinion. He needs a filter. A lot of times it isn't even what he says but how he says it. In this case, there is zero point for the President of the US make such a comment. Not only is it tasteless, it is pointless speculation. It has nothing to do with any REAL issue facing the Nation at this point in time.

OTOH, I have been just as outspoken if not more on the issue of free speech since long before any of you. If he's just got to say it, so be it. Get on his ass, counter his argument, whatever. Abusing the power of authority to alter, remove, or otherwise "flag" it as untrue is a non-starter with me.

It would also be a BIG reason I do not have a twitter or whatever social media account(s). In MY perfect world, the host of a social media outlet should be an impartial arbitrator. We know this to not be the case.

In this forinstance, twitter even entertaining such a notion or voicing it as they have makes it NOT impartial so they can go screw themselves.

Gunny
05-27-2020, 10:39 AM
I'm starting to understand why I keep getting the vibe that some of the righties on this site are really commies deep down inside. Something smells like rhinos around here.:rolleyes:

Shall we name names as to who is the one trying to coerce people to march in lockstep like good little Nazi's solely to his ideals?

Abbey Marie
05-27-2020, 10:49 AM
Scarbo and his dog partner Mika have had some nasty attacks on Trump.

So he hits back by mentioning what was already a news story out there. And little mika loses it and says she is running to twitter to tattle on him. WTF?

Trump should stay away from the shit wallowing they do to him, but after endless attacks he replies in kind, and they don't like it and can't handle it.

Trump IS wrong in how he handles himself, not what I want or expect. But he's done nothing different than others. And if it was just a few times, I would say he's president and needs to be above it. But these folks NEVER cease and they want him out of office, so I have less of a problem seeing him fight back and not giving in to their BS.

The liberal media isn’t used to a president who fights back, and they are having toddler tantrums over it. I am not always comfortable with Trump’s wording, nor do I like the Scarborough tweet, but I recognize that the combative qualities that make him mouthy, are also responsible for his standing up to Dems and actually getting things done.

Russ
05-27-2020, 11:24 AM
I don’t know anything about the case that Trump is tweeting about, but he should probably stay away from tweeting about it.
That being said, Scarborough and his pathetic sidekick Mika have attacked Trump and many others for a long time, at a filthy level and usually untrue or misleadingly worded. They are essentially subhuman and have sacrificed any claim to normal human rights. Trump or anyone else can say whatever they want or do whatever they want to either of them and there should be no complaints from them, and no sympathy from me. Trump could ship them both to Tehran prison and that is fine.

jimnyc
05-27-2020, 11:28 AM
I'm starting to understand why I keep getting the vibe that some of the righties on this site are really commies deep down inside. Something smells like rhinos around here.

I'm getting a vibe of someone who finds ANY disagreement means it's some rhino/liberal they are arguing with. Or that ONLY the right can be correct, they can never do any wrong. And it's rhino commie BS if you point out anything wrong by a rightie.

And nope, no need to quote where you stated as much.

Evmetro
05-27-2020, 11:43 AM
I'm getting a vibe of someone who finds ANY disagreement means it's some rhino/liberal they are arguing with. Or that ONLY the right can be correct, they can never do any wrong. And it's rhino commie BS if you point out anything wrong by a rightie.

And nope, no need to quote where you stated as much.

Lol, my post was meant as a scarecrow for commies. Commies are everywhere Jim, but they never just come out and claim to be commies. They hide out in the shadows like cockroaches, and they run to dark hiding places when you flip the lights on. That's why commies hate Trump so much. When my commie radar receives a ping, I like to flip on the lights. I am careful to not lasso commies until I have them in checkmate, but I do love to flip on the spotlight when I am close. Those who are not commies do not show any resentment when I flip on the commie light, but the commies head for cover.

jimnyc
05-27-2020, 11:49 AM
Lol, my post was meant as a scarecrow for commies. Commies are everywhere Jim, but they never just come out and claim to be commies. They hide out in the shadows like cockroaches, and they run to dark hiding places when you flip the lights on. That's why commies hate Trump so much. When my commie radar receives a ping, I like to flip on the lights. I am careful to not lasso commies until I have them in checkmate, but I do love to flip on the spotlight when I am close. Those who are not commies do not show any resentment when I flip on the commie light, but the commies head for cover.

Hiding in the shadows, commies and all that jazz? At lil 'ol DP? Methinks you have the wrong place. We have a tiny membership and ONE member may come remotely close to what you say.

Why folks have such a hard time over this mask issue is beyond me. Don't like one? Don't wear it. Don't tell me what is good for my family and what is not. And no one should be telling you what is best for you either.

And certainly don't try to convince me that I'm somehow doing wrong by wearing a mask when I choose to. That's a dead end road. And telling me that I am being led by fear or lefties, also a dead end road. And other claims too. I've explained why, and no more than that should be necessary. Just as I have no need to question or talk you out of your own decisions to make.

I have the RIGHT to wear one, no more needs to be said, IMO.

SassyLady
05-27-2020, 11:58 AM
**Trump got elected because he is "one of us"....not a plastic boring..polished phony....Twitter is the best way to communicate with `us`...Trump works hard working for free....Trump can do "regular" and President when needed...and thats what makes him different ...


If anyone who has any doubt about supporting Trump
**(after all he has done to this point)
Please ease your pain and get on with it....vote for Joe Biden 2020 and his handlers...

I support him as my President, however, doesn't mean I'm in lockstep with his stupid moves and some of his Twittering is beyond stupid. And, if anyone can't see how that hurts his presidency and other Republicans then they might have tunnel vision.

If he's communicating important stuff through Twitter that's awesome. However, he had fallen into the easy trap of just free thinking and not editing himself. Imagine how much he can accomplish if he filtered himself.

Gunny
05-27-2020, 12:15 PM
Lol, my post was meant as a scarecrow for commies. Commies are everywhere Jim, but they never just come out and claim to be commies. They hide out in the shadows like cockroaches, and they run to dark hiding places when you flip the lights on. That's why commies hate Trump so much. When my commie radar receives a ping, I like to flip on the lights. I am careful to not lasso commies until I have them in checkmate, but I do love to flip on the spotlight when I am close. Those who are not commies do not show any resentment when I flip on the commie light, but the commies head for cover.Sure got commies on your brain a lot, McCarthy.

Evmetro
05-27-2020, 12:19 PM
Sure got commies on your brain a lot, McCarthy.

The Mccarthy comparison is probably the nicest compliment I have ever received on this board, thank you so much.

I think Mccarthy would be proud of me. What Trump needs in his administration more than anything else right now is Mccarthy or somebody with a good commie radar.

Evmetro
05-27-2020, 12:24 PM
I support him as my President, however, doesn't mean I'm in lockstep with his stupid moves and some of his Twittering is beyond stupid. And, if anyone can't see how that hurts his presidency and other Republicans then they might have tunnel vision.

If he's communicating important stuff through Twitter that's awesome. However, he had fallen into the easy trap of just free thinking and not editing himself. Imagine how much he can accomplish if he filtered himself.

Radical transparency. Trump is my hero for wrestling the vile media, dems, commies, and traitors. He grabs them by the horns like he he does the PC police, and he wrestles them to the ground.

Go Trump!

Gunny
05-27-2020, 12:27 PM
The Mccarthy comparison is probably the nicest compliment I have ever received on this board, thank you so much.

I think Mccarthy would be proud of me. What Trump needs in his administration more than anything else right now is Mccarthy or somebody with a good commie radar.McCarthy was an unconstitutional witch hunter every bit as vile, stupid, alarmist and evil as Adam Schiff.

This isn't 1600s Salem.

Russ
05-27-2020, 03:55 PM
By the way, if Twitter wants to start flagging things Trump tweets as “false” then they are obligated to become a perpetual fact-checker on every tweet that ever gets posted, including tweets by the Clintons or Obamas. Are they ready for that?

Which reminds me of the way these days that Trump says “Good morning” at a press briefing and Politifact immediately does a fact check on this, followed minutes later by a proclamation by them that “Trump said Good Morning with no justification” or “Trumps statement of Good Morning has been Debunked”. I would say that left-leaning fact checker sites have fact checked Trump over 10,000 times since he took office. I would also bet that they claimed “False” every single time. How many times would you guess that they fact checked Obama? Zero, I’m guessing, even after “you can keep your doctor”. They probably still haven’t fact checked Bill Clinton for his “I did not have sex with that woman” perjury statement.

Black Diamond
05-27-2020, 04:47 PM
By the way, if Twitter wants to start flagging things Trump tweets as “false” then they are obligated to become a perpetual fact-checker on every tweet that ever gets posted, including tweets by the Clintons or Obamas. Are they ready for that?

Which reminds me of the way these days that Trump says “Good morning” at a press briefing and Politifact immediately does a fact check on this, followed minutes later by a proclamation by them that “Trump said Good Morning with no justification” or “Trumps statement of Good Morning has been Debunked”. I would say that left-leaning fact checker sites have fact checked Trump over 10,000 times since he took office. I would also bet that they claimed “False” every single time. How many times would you guess that they fact checked Obama? Zero, I’m guessing, even after “you can keep your doctor”. They probably still haven’t fact checked Bill Clinton for his “I did not have sex with that woman” perjury statement.
Also all the moron responders who claim trump is responsible for 100k deaths, that he colluded with Russia, that he strangled some woman, etc

Black Diamond
05-27-2020, 06:01 PM
McCarthy was an unconstitutional witch hunter every bit as vile, stupid, alarmist and evil as Adam Schiff.

This isn't 1600s Salem.

They made a movie about Salem that was an allegory re red scare.

Gunny
05-27-2020, 06:59 PM
By the way, if Twitter wants to start flagging things Trump tweets as “false” then they are obligated to become a perpetual fact-checker on every tweet that ever gets posted, including tweets by the Clintons or Obamas. Are they ready for that?

Which reminds me of the way these days that Trump says “Good morning” at a press briefing and Politifact immediately does a fact check on this, followed minutes later by a proclamation by them that “Trump said Good Morning with no justification” or “Trumps statement of Good Morning has been Debunked”. I would say that left-leaning fact checker sites have fact checked Trump over 10,000 times since he took office. I would also bet that they claimed “False” every single time. How many times would you guess that they fact checked Obama? Zero, I’m guessing, even after “you can keep your doctor”. They probably still haven’t fact checked Bill Clinton for his “I did not have sex with that woman” perjury statement.That's hilarious :laugh2: "Trump said good morning with no justification". Or it's been debunked :laugh2:

You KNOW there are people that are believing that crap :laugh2:

pete311
05-28-2020, 03:07 PM
Takes Trump 70 days to act on coronavirus but only 2 days to slap social media.

SassyLady
05-28-2020, 06:42 PM
Takes Trump 70 days to act on coronavirus but only 2 days to slap social media.
You really don't know how stupid that sounds do you?

Twitter is tangible and in your face so not hard to see what's going on. Plus, this is something that's been going on longer than 2 days. Twitter has been censoring for quite some time as well as FB and other social media.

Acting on the virus was/is way bigger than putting regulations on social media and he waited, and listened to, advice from experts both medical and economic.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
05-28-2020, 06:52 PM
He's so pissed at Scarborough he is trying to hit back hard. I think he forgets he's President and responds as a regular person would. He has to stop that! He needs to think long term results instead of immediate satisfaction.

I'm pretty disgusted with him right now because he's making it so hard to keep supporting him.

I agree--but-- I also know that he is only human and after over 4 years now of non-stop, vicious attacks made upon him and his family I give him leeway to vent some anger at these ffing buffoons and these lying hate-filled assholes...
Of course, I also wish that he would choose his words more carefully and temper his anger enough to cut those bastards deeply while maintaining a more dignified stature..
Adding to that, we voted for him because he did not kiss ass and grovel to these filthy, worthless, slimy, ffing assholes, imho.
Assholes which I myself, do ever so truly and dearly hate....-Tyr

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
05-28-2020, 06:56 PM
Takes Trump 70 days to act on coronavirus but only 2 days to slap social media.

What? You came out of hiding just to utter some more of your usual blather?
However, I do see the comparison you made-- the disease to social media.
I know, I know, it was entirely accidental-yet it fits so damn well!
Way to go Petey! :clap::clap: :dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:
Even a blind pig finds an acorn ever so often... :laugh: --Tyr

Russ
05-29-2020, 06:43 PM
Takes Trump 70 days to act on coronavirus but only 2 days to slap social media.

Incorrect. If it took Trump 2 days to slap social media, then he would have done it January 22nd, 2017. He’s been a model of restraint.

pete311
05-29-2020, 08:25 PM
Incorrect. If it took Trump 2 days to slap social media, then he would have done it January 22nd, 2017. He’s been a model of restraint.

yes his authoritarian preference was delayed. Twitter can do whatever the fuck it wants. If Trump doesn't like it, he can stop being a snowflake and use facebook. Twitter owes him nothing. suddenly you guys act like social media companies are an arm of the gov or in the constitution or something. there is absolutely no president that bitches and grieves like Trump. amazing you tough guys like his whinny fat ass.

NightTrain
05-30-2020, 12:14 AM
yes his authoritarian preference was delayed. Twitter can do whatever the fuck it wants. If Trump doesn't like it, he can stop being a snowflake and use facebook. Twitter owes him nothing. suddenly you guys act like social media companies are an arm of the gov or in the constitution or something. there is absolutely no president that bitches and grieves like Trump. amazing you tough guys like his whinny fat ass.

Not without losing that Platform Immunity they enjoy.

Facebook is smart enough to stay 'neutral', they at least try to give the appearance of neutrality. Twitter openly waded into Publisher territory and they'll lose their immunity because of it. Zuckerberg is panicking because Twitter is going to drag them into the tar pits as well.

And you'd better pace your tears, Petey. After November you're going to wish for the good ol days from '16-'20.

Trump's going to really get shit done with no re-election to worry about for the next 4 years. It's going to be glorious!

Put simply, Petey, The Donald is about to turn the Winning up to 11.

pete311
05-30-2020, 09:17 AM
Not without losing that Platform Immunity they enjoy.

Facebook is smart enough to stay 'neutral', they at least try to give the appearance of neutrality. Twitter openly waded into Publisher territory and they'll lose their immunity because of it. Zuckerberg is panicking because Twitter is going to drag them into the tar pits as well.

And you'd better pace your tears, Petey. After November you're going to wish for the good ol days from '16-'20.

Trump's going to really get shit done with no re-election to worry about for the next 4 years. It's going to be glorious!

Put simply, Petey, The Donald is about to turn the Winning up to 11.

Fuck facebook and twitter. Zuckerberg is a sociopath. He'd fit in great in germany in the 30s.

Russ
05-30-2020, 11:13 AM
Not without losing that Platform Immunity they enjoy.

Facebook is smart enough to stay 'neutral', they at least try to give the appearance of neutrality. Twitter openly waded into Publisher territory and they'll lose their immunity because of it. Zuckerberg is panicking because Twitter is going to drag them into the tar pits as well.

And you'd better pace your tears, Petey. After November you're going to wish for the good ol days from '16-'20.

Trump's going to really get shit done with no re-election to worry about for the next 4 years. It's going to be glorious!

Put simply, Petey, The Donald is about to turn the Winning up to 11.

Amen. I would argue that Twitter and Facebook have become essentially utilities, like phone services. Twitter will find themselves with an oversight board if they keep it up. If they want to flag or fact check Trump's tweets, then they better start doing the same for all politicians. Is that what they want?

Russ
05-30-2020, 11:18 AM
yes his authoritarian preference was delayed. Twitter can do whatever the fuck it wants. If Trump doesn't like it, he can stop being a snowflake and use facebook. Twitter owes him nothing. suddenly you guys act like social media companies are an arm of the gov or in the constitution or something. there is absolutely no president that bitches and grieves like Trump. amazing you tough guys like his whinny fat ass.

I think you mean "whiny", but the term doesn't really apply. Trump doesn't start attacks, he responds to them. If Twitter doesn't want the pot running over, then they shouldn't start stirring it. Trump may be off here and there with some tweets, but so are a lot of politicians. Trump is the only one that Twitter does the flags and fact checks on. They are opening up a can of worms that they won't be able to close again.

Gunny
05-30-2020, 12:03 PM
Fuck facebook and twitter. Zuckerberg is a sociopath. He'd fit in great in germany in the 30s.Not as well as the entire Democratic Party. Hitler wouldn't have needed the SA if he had you leftwingers. Bonus for Hitler: y'all are already trained to goosestep like lemmings.