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View Full Version : Can you say $1,000,000,000,000?



Dfresh
02-05-2007, 11:30 AM
Interesting article comparing annual budgets for the EPA, Department of Education, National Science Foundation and the National Cancer Institute in relation to the war.

"Feb. 4, 2007 The price tag for the Iraq War is now estimated at $700 billion in direct costs and perhaps twice that much when indirect expenditures are included. Cost estimates vary Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz puts the total cost at more than $2 trillion but let's be conservative and say it's only $1 trillion (in today's dollars)."

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCounting/story?id=2844304&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

CSM
02-05-2007, 02:29 PM
Great! Let's turn over the defense of his country to those organizations!

5stringJeff
02-05-2007, 02:35 PM
Nowhere in the Constitution is Congress authorized to appropriate monies to fund the things that the EPA and DOE do.

The author goes on to say that we could have had a great economic stimulus by giving $3,000 to everyone in America. Of course, we could have also had that same stimulus if Congress hadn't levied such high taxes, and the original owners of that money had been able to dispense with it as they saw fit.

jillian
02-05-2007, 02:45 PM
Nowhere in the Constitution is Congress authorized to appropriate monies to fund the things that the EPA and DOE do.

The author goes on to say that we could have had a great economic stimulus by giving $3,000 to everyone in America. Of course, we could have also had that same stimulus if Congress hadn't levied such high taxes, and the original owners of that money had been able to dispense with it as they saw fit.

Of course the Constitution permits it. That's what the "necessary and proper" clause means. That's how it's always been construed by the Court and that's not going to change any time soon.

And maybe taxes wouldn't be so high if they didn't keep exempting corporations.

Hobbit
02-05-2007, 03:36 PM
Of course the Constitution permits it. That's what the "necessary and proper" clause means. That's how it's always been construed by the Court and that's not going to change any time soon.

And maybe taxes wouldn't be so high if they didn't keep exempting corporations.


Typical liberal spin job. When examined in context, something the libs like to leave out (such as the assertion that the 2nd ammendment only legalizes militias), the so-called 'elastic' "necessary and proper" clause does not grant ANY powers not specifically listed in the Constitution, but instead grants Congress the power to do whatever it sees fit in carrying out the duties it is specifically given in the Constitution.

5stringJeff
02-05-2007, 03:49 PM
Typical liberal spin job. When examined in context, something the libs like to leave out (such as the assertion that the 2nd ammendment only legalizes militias), the so-called 'elastic' "necessary and proper" clause does not grant ANY powers not specifically listed in the Constitution, but instead grants Congress the power to do whatever it sees fit in carrying out the duties it is specifically given in the Constitution.

That's what I was about to say.

Jill, if the "necessary and proper" clause was the blank check you thought it was, the Founders wouldn't have bothered to list the specific areas where Congress was authorized to appropriate money.

Dfresh
02-05-2007, 08:49 PM
Nowhere in the Constitution is Congress authorized to appropriate monies to fund the things that the EPA and DOE do.

The author goes on to say that we could have had a great economic stimulus by giving $3,000 to everyone in America. Of course, we could have also had that same stimulus if Congress hadn't levied such high taxes, and the original owners of that money had been able to dispense with it as they saw fit.


"Another way to get at the $1 trillion cost of the Iraq War is to note that the Treasury could have used the money to mail a check for more than $3,000 to every man, woman and child in the United States"

The author used this example as a means to explain how much $1,000,000,000,000 is worth, not suggesting that we actually do it.

Hobbit
02-06-2007, 01:41 AM
What the hell are you talking about? I don't see how this relates to the topic.

You must have missed this post.


Nowhere in the Constitution is Congress authorized to appropriate monies to fund the things that the EPA and DOE do.

The author goes on to say that we could have had a great economic stimulus by giving $3,000 to everyone in America. Of course, we could have also had that same stimulus if Congress hadn't levied such high taxes, and the original owners of that money had been able to dispense with it as they saw fit.

And this one, which I DIRECTLY quoted in my post.


Of course the Constitution permits it. That's what the "necessary and proper" clause means. That's how it's always been construed by the Court and that's not going to change any time soon.

And maybe taxes wouldn't be so high if they didn't keep exempting corporations.

And while I'm at it, there's a reason corporations are exempt. Corporations cannot pay taxes as corporations are incapable of accumulating wealth. Only individuals can pay taxes. When corporations are taxed, it is paid a) by the shareholders in the form or reduced payouts, which hurt the company's worth, growth, and standing, b) by the employees in the form of pay cuts, layoffs, or smaller/no raises, or c) by the customers in the form of increased prices. The effect on the economy would be no different than if you levied higher taxes against all three of these groups. Corporate income taxes are just a way for politicians to raise taxes on everybody and have their constituents thank them for it.

KarlMarx
02-06-2007, 05:05 AM
...a check for more than $3,000 to every man, woman and child in the United States"



Are you kidding?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!? Why, why, that would be tantamount to a tax cut for the RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bush did something similar several years ago and the Dumb-o-crat cry babies have been crying bloody murder ever since.

And when Bush proposed doing something to prevent the coming fiscal crisis known as Social Security (which will cost much more than a mere trillion dollars!), the Dumb-o-crats shouted that down too. What was it they said? Little old ladies will be eating dog food and going dumpster diving if we tried to privatize social security?

Pay no attention to the talk about the money, ladies and gentlemen. That is merely a ploy. Dumb-o-crats love to spend money, that is, other persons' money. This is a right out of Machiavelli's "The Prince", keep power by being generous with the money of others.

No, all this talk about the cost of the war is to provide a reason to not only withdraw all of our troops, but to cut funding to the Iraqis altogether. Yes, and the Democrats are hell bent on repeating the mistakes of Vietnam. They WANT history to repeat itself.

Don't you remember? I do! First we withdrew our troops from Vietnam, then Congress cut funding to the Vietnamese troops altogether, then Vietnam fell! Remember the scene with the helicopter atop the American Embassy in Saigon? I do! Then remember what happened? The Vietnamese spread revolution and pandemonium throughout South East Asia. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge killed 2 million people in Cambodia. Hundreds of thousands more were killed, tortured or imprisoned throughout Vietnam.

Now listen, because this is what could happen. Withdraw our troops, Iran jumps in, eventually, the entire Middle East is in turmoil, and I mean war on a large scale.

Do you think you pay too much for gasoline now? Wait until a war in the Middle East starts. You'll be paying two, three, five times the current price, if you can get gasoline at all!

Do you think our economy is doing poorly now? (Actually, only a moron would believe it is doing poorly now, but the Dumb-o-crats do! But I digress!). Just WAIT until the price of oil goes over 100 dollars a barrel because tankers from the Middle East are being sunk on a daily basis and oil fields are up in flames.

Oh, and forget global warming, you will have global pollution on a scale never before imagined once the Middle East is engulfed in war without end.

It will get better! Just wait until Iran tries to launch a nuclear missile at Israel, too. Don't you think they won't either. Then Israel will retaliate.

So, we not only will have the Middle East engulfed in war, global pollution, a world wide economic catastrophe but a nuclear war to boot.

And the fact that two oceans separate us from the rest of the world won't help, because were are inextricably linked to it. This is the age of a global economy. Not only that, but the ecological consequences will be dire. Between nuclear fallout and climate changes caused by thousand of oil well fires, there will be no place to hide.

By then, there won't be a George W Bush to blame. Hillary Clinton will be on the throne, let's see what the bitch does then. And let's see how Pelosi will multitask her way out of a national crisis. The old Democrat tactic of blaming Bush won't help matters. Western civilization will be held hostage to the events of the Middle East. Hillary Clinton won't be able to lie or carpetbag her way out of this one.

Yes, you are so right! Withdrawing the troops from Iraq is a great idea!

KarlMarx
02-06-2007, 07:38 AM
Oh yes, and one more thing.....

If the war in Iraq were to suddenly end today, what do you think would happen to all the money earmarked for the war?

The federal budget would decrease, right?

Wrong! All that money would be scooped up by Pelosi's Raiders and earmarked for more government programs! Yes sir!!!!

And why? Because, by creating more government jobs, the Democrat constituency will grow (not to mention that the Labor Unions, Trial Lawyers will be forever grateful) and they'll stay in power.

Fiscal restraint, fiscal responsibility? Oh no, those ideas will become passe once the Democrats get their filthy fingers on the money.

Is this grounds for impeachment? Yes. I believe so. Let's start with Pelosi and her renegade band of lunatic left wingers.

And be sure to include my rat fink, son of a bitch Congressman MAURICE Hinchey (can't he change his name to "Butch"?)

Dfresh
02-07-2007, 03:40 PM
Are you kidding?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!? Why, why, that would be tantamount to a tax cut for the RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bush did something similar several years ago and the Dumb-o-crat cry babies have been crying bloody murder ever since.

And when Bush proposed doing something to prevent the coming fiscal crisis known as Social Security (which will cost much more than a mere trillion dollars!), the Dumb-o-crats shouted that down too. What was it they said? Little old ladies will be eating dog food and going dumpster diving if we tried to privatize social security?

Pay no attention to the talk about the money, ladies and gentlemen. That is merely a ploy. Dumb-o-crats love to spend money, that is, other persons' money. This is a right out of Machiavelli's "The Prince", keep power by being generous with the money of others.

No, all this talk about the cost of the war is to provide a reason to not only withdraw all of our troops, but to cut funding to the Iraqis altogether. Yes, and the Democrats are hell bent on repeating the mistakes of Vietnam. They WANT history to repeat itself.

Don't you remember? I do! First we withdrew our troops from Vietnam, then Congress cut funding to the Vietnamese troops altogether, then Vietnam fell! Remember the scene with the helicopter atop the American Embassy in Saigon? I do! Then remember what happened? The Vietnamese spread revolution and pandemonium throughout South East Asia. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge killed 2 million people in Cambodia. Hundreds of thousands more were killed, tortured or imprisoned throughout Vietnam.

Now listen, because this is what could happen. Withdraw our troops, Iran jumps in, eventually, the entire Middle East is in turmoil, and I mean war on a large scale.

Do you think you pay too much for gasoline now? Wait until a war in the Middle East starts. You'll be paying two, three, five times the current price, if you can get gasoline at all!

Do you think our economy is doing poorly now? (Actually, only a moron would believe it is doing poorly now, but the Dumb-o-crats do! But I digress!). Just WAIT until the price of oil goes over 100 dollars a barrel because tankers from the Middle East are being sunk on a daily basis and oil fields are up in flames.

Oh, and forget global warming, you will have global pollution on a scale never before imagined once the Middle East is engulfed in war without end.

It will get better! Just wait until Iran tries to launch a nuclear missile at Israel, too. Don't you think they won't either. Then Israel will retaliate.

So, we not only will have the Middle East engulfed in war, global pollution, a world wide economic catastrophe but a nuclear war to boot.

And the fact that two oceans separate us from the rest of the world won't help, because were are inextricably linked to it. This is the age of a global economy. Not only that, but the ecological consequences will be dire. Between nuclear fallout and climate changes caused by thousand of oil well fires, there will be no place to hide.

By then, there won't be a George W Bush to blame. Hillary Clinton will be on the throne, let's see what the bitch does then. And let's see how Pelosi will multitask her way out of a national crisis. The old Democrat tactic of blaming Bush won't help matters. Western civilization will be held hostage to the events of the Middle East. Hillary Clinton won't be able to lie or carpetbag her way out of this one.

Yes, you are so right! Withdrawing the troops from Iraq is a great idea!

Who said withdrawing the troops from Iraq is a great Idea?

Ado
02-07-2007, 10:26 PM
I don't believe it actually says in the Constitution that we have to pay

taxes either--according to something I saw on CNN.

But no one really wants to test that voluntarily.:read:

Comrade
02-08-2007, 02:04 AM
Hi everyone,

Karl that was one hell of a cogent email. Now I know what I missed about this group.

I've been waging various debates on other boards for a long while, mostly liberal boards. You just can't knock any sense into those pee brains of theirs. :cuckoo:

So jimmy sent me an email and invited me to come over and join this new-fangled board. How's everyone? Do I even want to know what happened with the USMB situation?

Comrade
02-08-2007, 02:05 AM
Hi everyone,

Karl that was one hell of a cogent post. Now I know what I missed about this group.

I've been waging various debates on other boards for a long while, mostly liberal boards. You just can't knock any sense into those pee brains of theirs. :cuckoo:

So jimmy sent me an email and invited me to come over and join this new-fangled board. How's everyone? Do I even want to know what happened with the USMB situation?

Comrade
02-08-2007, 02:08 AM
Well you can see I am off to a good start, double posting and all...

:lol:

5stringJeff
02-08-2007, 11:44 AM
Hi everyone,

Karl that was one hell of a cogent post. Now I know what I missed about this group.

I've been waging various debates on other boards for a long while, mostly liberal boards. You just can't knock any sense into those pee brains of theirs. :cuckoo:

So jimmy sent me an email and invited me to come over and join this new-fangled board. How's everyone? Do I even want to know what happened with the USMB situation?

Hey Comrade!

Check out the "What do you make of this" thread in the Steel Cage forum if you want to catch up on the USMB thing.