The Importance of Ukraine

[NightTrain]

Not taking into account the strategic military geographic importance within Europe and, of course, access to the Black Sea along with existing deepwater ports & facilities, there's quite a bit more to Ukraine that sends a tingle up Putin's leg.

I found this list in the comments section of a story at The War Zone, and haven't verified these for myself... but it does explain why Putin would risk so much for this blatant land-grab :

Ukraine is an industrialized country:

1st European producer of ammonia;

2nd largest gas pipeline network in Europe and 4th in the world (142.5 billion cubic meters of gas throughput capacity in the EU);

3rd largest nuclear fleet in Europe - 8th in the world;

3rd longest rail network in Europe - 11th in the world (21,700 km);

3rd world producer of locators and tracking equipment (after the United States and France);

3rd world iron exporter;

4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants;

4th world manufacturer of rocket launchers;

4th world exporter of clay;

4th world exporter of titanium;

8th world exporter of ores and metallurgical concentrates;

9th world exporter in the arms industry;

10th world steel producer (32.4 million tons).

1st European reserve of uranium ores;[/FONT]

2nd European titanium ore reserve - 10th world reserve;

2nd world reserve of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of world reserves);

2nd world reserve of iron ore (30 billion tons);

2nd European mercury ore reserve;

3rd European shale gas reserve (22 billion cubic meters) - 13th world reserve

4th place worldwide in total value of natural resources

7th largest coal reserve in the world (33.9 billion tons)

Ukraine is an agricultural country - it can meet the food needs of 600 million people:

The largest area of ​​arable land in Europe;

3rd largest area of ​​black earth (tchornozem) in the world (25% of the world volume);

1st world exporter of sunflower and sunflower oil;

2nd world producer of barley - 4th world exporter;

3rd world corn producer - 4th world exporter;-

4th world producer of potatoes;

5th world producer of rye;

5th place worldwide in beekeeping production - honey, wax, royal jelly, pollen, propolis, bee venom (75,000 tonnes);

8th world exporter of wheat;

9th world producer of chicken eggs;

16th largest cheese exporter in the world

[Kathianne]

Way back when dinosaurs roamed I learned in 2nd grade that Ukraine was the breadbasket of Europe.

[fj1200]

Not taking into account the strategic military geographic importance within Europe and, of course, access to the Black Sea along with existing deepwater ports & facilities, there's quite a bit more to Ukraine that sends a tingle up Putin's leg.

I found this list in the comments section of a story at The War Zone, and haven't verified these for myself... but it does explain why Putin would risk so much for this blatant land-grab :

That would seem like very old world thinking of land and resources which given it's Putin might not be too much of a stretch; they're not pre WWII Japan with no resources to work with. But many on those list Ukraine might be high globally but they trail Russia itself. I looked up a few and one of them was steel production which put Ukraine at ~20 whatever tons which sounds impressive but Russia was already higher at ~70 whatever tons. Throw in the Russian problem of a cratering population it just doesn't make sense to me. Russia has 146mm people and projected to be 136mm and 126mm in 2050 and 2100.

I don't know what the real issues are. My only thought is that it's ego and trying to restore some semblance of Russian empire. Other than that I'm just waiting for Gunny to tell me what to think about it. :salute:

[BoogyMan]

Last night Marco Rubio post the comment below so who knows what is going on.
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That would seem like very old world thinking of land and resources which given it's Putin might not be too much of a stretch; they're not pre WWII Japan with no resources to work with. But many on those list Ukraine might be high globally but they trail Russia itself. I looked up a few and one of them was steel production which put Ukraine at ~20 whatever tons which sounds impressive but Russia was already higher at ~70 whatever tons. Throw in the Russian problem of a cratering population it just doesn't make sense to me. Russia has 146mm people and projected to be 136mm and 126mm in 2050 and 2100.

I don't know what the real issues are. My only thought is that it's ego and trying to restore some semblance of Russian empire. Other than that I'm just waiting for Gunny to tell me what to think about it. :salute:

[Gunny]

That would seem like very old world thinking of land and resources which given it's Putin might not be too much of a stretch; they're not pre WWII Japan with no resources to work with. But many on those list Ukraine might be high globally but they trail Russia itself. I looked up a few and one of them was steel production which put Ukraine at ~20 whatever tons which sounds impressive but Russia was already higher at ~70 whatever tons. Throw in the Russian problem of a cratering population it just doesn't make sense to me. Russia has 146mm people and projected to be 136mm and 126mm in 2050 and 2100.

I don't know what the real issues are. My only thought is that it's ego and trying to restore some semblance of Russian empire. Other than that I'm just waiting for Gunny to tell me what to think about it. :salute:

I've been thinking along the same lines as you, and Boogeyman (and that twit Rubio). Something is not right with Putin. He's almost 70. Dementia, Alzheimer's, etc. Seeing "neo-Nazi's" around every corner?

Or perhaps as I stated in one of these threads, he wants to assume Ukraine's trade. Even if Russia is a bit higher on your scale, it could almost double where it sits now.

On the other hand, this typing shit hurts my hand or I could give a history class on Ukraine, Russia and who is what :)

[Gunny]

Speaking of dementia .... when the smoke clears, where does the US stand in the eyes of the World? They're doing this basically without us. Joke's throwing money at the problem, and token "defensive" troops.

No overwhelming US response nor US leadership. I'm okay with that, except after all is said and done, you KNOW Joke's going to come out like he's in charge of something and played some major role. Can't imagine why anyone resents us :rolleyes:

[NightTrain]

That would seem like very old world thinking of land and resources which given it's Putin might not be too much of a stretch; they're not pre WWII Japan with no resources to work with. But many on those list Ukraine might be high globally but they trail Russia itself. I looked up a few and one of them was steel production which put Ukraine at ~20 whatever tons which sounds impressive but Russia was already higher at ~70 whatever tons. Throw in the Russian problem of a cratering population it just doesn't make sense to me. Russia has 146mm people and projected to be 136mm and 126mm in 2050 and 2100.

I don't know what the real issues are. My only thought is that it's ego and trying to restore some semblance of Russian empire. Other than that I'm just waiting for Gunny to tell me what to think about it. :salute:

I personally believe that his primary motivation is to rebuild the Soviet Union. He said years ago that the collapse of the USSR was the greatest catastrophe.

But the vast quantities of resources and industry (especially that delicious titanium) is the icing.



I'm not really sure what Rubio is talking about, unless it's dementia.... in which case we all have a serious problem on our hands. You'd have to speak Russian to pick up on that.

[Gunny]

I personally believe that his primary motivation is to rebuild the Soviet Union. He said years ago that the collapse of the USSR was the greatest catastrophe.

But the vast quantities of resources and industry (especially that delicious titanium) is the icing.



I'm not really sure what Rubio is talking about, unless it's dementia.... in which case we all have a serious problem on our hands. You'd have to speak Russian to pick up on that.

A demented fool seeing Nazi's around every corner with his finger on the nuke trigger? No translation needed.

[NightTrain]

Speaking of dementia .... when the smoke clears, where does the US stand in the eyes of the World? They're doing this basically without us. Joke's throwing money at the problem, and token "defensive" troops.

No overwhelming US response nor US leadership. I'm okay with that, except after all is said and done, you KNOW Joke's going to come out like he's in charge of something and played some major role. Can't imagine why anyone resents us :rolleyes:

Pretty sure the world understands that we have a drooling imbecile and a cackling idiot running the show here, and they're stepping up and at least trying.

I read that Germany is the last holdout of kicking Russia out of SWIFT, which needs to happen. I understand their reluctance to do so, because they stupidly NEED Russian gas now, and that's how they pay for it. Those windmills & solar panels aren't quite the slam dunk they expected them to be.

We could have supplied Europe with gas, but that's not even a remote possibility now with Biden killing off our energy sectors.

And you're right about Biden (Klain) leading from behind - the fool wasn't going to even sanction Putin until the Brits and a few others did. Suddenly it was a good idea. I know it's more symbolic than anything because the Russian government has hidden his personal assets, but it's an important optic nevertheless.

[Gunny]

Pretty sure the world understands that we have a drooling imbecile and a cackling idiot running the show here, and they're stepping up and at least trying.

I read that Germany is the last holdout of kicking Russia out of SWIFT, which needs to happen. I understand their reluctance to do so, because they stupidly NEED Russian gas now, and that's how they pay for it. Those windmills & solar panels aren't quite the slam dunk they expected them to be.

We could have supplied Europe with gas, but that's not even a remote possibility now with Biden killing off our energy sectors.

And you're right about Biden (Klain) leading from behind - the fool wasn't going to even sanction Putin until the Brits and a few others did. Suddenly it was a good idea. I know it's more symbolic than anything because the Russian government has hidden his personal assets, but it's an important optic nevertheless.

I guess our usually loud-mouthed Congress critters are "busy". I'd be attacking Biden screwing our energy. We could offset a lot of this but for his Build Biden a Brain agenda.

[fj1200]

I personally believe that his primary motivation is to rebuild the Soviet Union. He said years ago that the collapse of the USSR was the greatest catastrophe.

But the vast quantities of resources and industry (especially that delicious titanium) is the icing.

I'm not really sure what Rubio is talking about, unless it's dementia.... in which case we all have a serious problem on our hands. You'd have to speak Russian to pick up on that.

I can't argue with that. He's not a modern thinker. But titanium; Russian produces far more than Ukraine, Ukraine just exports more of it, I was watching a show about the SR-71 and the vast amounts of titanium that they needed for it and they had to use multiple shell companies to get the raw materials out the USSR. Fascinating on how much time and energy they spend trying to figure out how to make the stuff into useful parts.

[NightTrain]

Well, blow me down! Now we're getting somewhere.

Kicking Russia off the SWIFT platform is going to seriously put the hurt on Putin. There must've been some hardcore arm twisting to get Germany on board.

I'm very curious as to how they expect to get the natural gas they need.


https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ukraine-invasion-germany-prepares-disconnect-russia-from-swift-lithuania-president-says

[Gunny]

Well, blow me down! Now we're getting somewhere.

Kicking Russia off the SWIFT platform is going to seriously put the hurt on Putin. There must've been some hardcore arm twisting to get Germany on board.

I'm very curious as to how they expect to get the natural gas they need.


https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ukraine-invasion-germany-prepares-disconnect-russia-from-swift-lithuania-president-saysNot from Biden. He's off to DE for the weekend :rolleyes:

[NightTrain]

Not from Biden. He's off to DE for the weekend :rolleyes:

For certain.

Suspect that it was the rest of the EU and definitely Britain doing the twisting.

That, combined with the incredible heroic effort of the Ukrainians fighting against absurd odds - and yet, holding their own. The President of Ukraine, who us target #1, refusing to bail and instead, staying to fight in the streets with his AK-47.

And the awesome Ukrainian woman who went up to a Russian soldier & told him to put some sunflower seeds in his pockets so that he'd plant flowers when he died. :thumb:

Public sentiment is wildly in favor of the Ukrainians... Germany wasn't in a good position to deny the sanctions.

[Gunny]

For certain.

Suspect that it was the rest of the EU and definitely Britain doing the twisting.

That, combined with the incredible heroic effort of the Ukrainians fighting against absurd odds - and yet, holding their own. The President of Ukraine, who us target #1, refusing to bail and instead, staying to fight in the streets with his AK-47.

And the awesome Ukrainian woman who went up to a Russian soldier & told him to put some sunflower seeds in his pockets so that he'd plant flowers when he died. :thumb:

Public sentiment is wildly in favor of the Ukrainians... Germany wasn't in a good position to deny the sanctions.Notice how it's *crickets chirping* from our usually loud-mouthed left? The longer this drags on, the more I am beginning to just hate them and their President.

From a military POV, Putin's army is entirely exposed, probably demoralized, to counter attack. IMO, some Russian generals rather than Ukranian ones should be considering a change in leadership.

[Gunny]

Oh, and everyone might want to consider filling up. Every little bit helps and we're going to pay our share at the pump if they cut Putin's oil exports. Maybe we'll find out if Joe's got the US in or out when he gets back from DE:rolleyes:

In or out, we'll be paying.

[Gunny]

Anyone know if Portugal is part of NATO? Portugal is sending ground troops into Ukraine.

[Gunny]

Last resort: CNN. But here we go. Everybody's ready to cut Russia from SWIFT except guess f-ing who. Yep. Good ol' Joe. The Secretary General of the UN cancelled his weekend in Geneva but Joe hauls it to DE and is vacillating over dropping the hammer.

I don't even know if there're words t say what I'm thinking about this gutless POS right now.


From CNN’s Sebastian Shukla in Kyiv
https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/digital-images/org/f245a60d-3a67-4404-bb1e-c4d1869468a8.jpgUkraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky is seen during a released statement on February 26. (From President Volodymyr Zelensky/Facebook)
Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has hinted that there is consensus on SWIFT restrictions for Russia.
In a statement on Saturday evening, the Ukrainian leader said “we feel Ukraine has got the support of the whole civilized world. The practical result? SWIFT.”
He hailed this as an “important victory” and “means billions and billions of losses for Russia. It is a price for a sneaky invasion into our country.”
Earlier on Saturday, the Ukraine's Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said the “technical preparations” for Russia’s ban from the SWIFT system (https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/25/business/swift-russia-putin/index.html) have begun.
“Official decision hasn’t been processed yet, but technical preparations for making and implementing that decision have begun,” Kuleba said in a statement posted on his official Facebook page.
Banning Russia from the SWIFT high-security network that connects thousands of financial institutions around the world would cut Russia’s banks off the global financial system. The move is considered the “nuclear option” of sanctions, because while it would be very damaging to the Russian economy, it would hurt other countries, too.
A number of European countries said on Friday and Saturday that they would support cutting Russia off from SWIFT. The UK, France, Italy, Hungary, Cyprus, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Germany already indicated they would not block the sanction.
US President Joe Biden is seriously weighing (https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-26-22/h_e7c4cc9eb73df54a27af50f0e2388c7b) whether to remove Russia from SWIFT, the high security network that connect thousands of financial institutions around the world, but has yet to make a final decision, multiple people familiar with his thinking say.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-26-22/index.html

[NightTrain]

Last resort: CNN. But here we go. Everybody's ready to cut Russia from SWIFT except guess f-ing who. Yep. Good ol' Joe. The Secretary General of the UN cancelled his weekend in Geneva but Joe hauls it to DE and is vacillating over dropping the hammer.

I don't even know if there're words t say what I'm thinking about this gutless POS right now.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-26-22/index.html



Yep. He's a corrupt POS.

[NightTrain]

So, by now I'm sure that everyone has heard that story of Snake Island, off the coast of Ukraine in the Black Sea. There were 13 Ukrainian soldiers on that tiny island, and a Russian Destroyer approached and told them to surrender or face the music. The Ukrainian soldiers responded with : "Russian Warship : Go fuck yourselves."

The Russians opened fire and killed them all, but it's become a legendary example of bravery, especially now as they fight. That phrase is used whenever possible when talking with any invading Russians, it's kind of a national slogan now.


Today, the Ukrainian DOT took down all the highway signs and replaced them with these to confuse the convoys of tanks & other vehicles bound for Kyiv :

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I've never been more impressed with a collective group of people in my life.

[Kathianne]

Notice how it's *crickets chirping* from our usually loud-mouthed left? The longer this drags on, the more I am beginning to just hate them and their President.

From a military POV, Putin's army is entirely exposed, probably demoralized, to counter attack. IMO, some Russian generals rather than Ukranian ones should be considering a change in leadership.
They are waiting. Waiting for something to happen to turn opinion or for the removal of Putin as evidence of how a good system works.

They are the oligarchs in waiting.

[fj1200]

Notice how it's *crickets chirping* from our usually loud-mouthed left?

If the 3 and a half minutes I caught of an ABC Stephanopolous show this morning is any indication they're whining about what trump said and that the Republicans are divided and not really supportive of biden. I'm sure none of them were supportive of anything trump did. :rolleyes:

[Gunny]

If the 3 and a half minutes I caught of an ABC Stephanopolous show this morning is any indication they're whining about what trump said and that the Republicans are divided and not really supportive of biden. I'm sure none of them were supportive of anything trump did. :rolleyes:

No place for Biden or Trump, IMO. I was done with Biden before he got started. Trump's praise of Putin was the last straw for me. If it's those 2 in 24, it's going to take a LOT to get me out of the house come November. Screw 'em both.

[Gunny]

Speaking of the importance of Ukraine ... learned this last night (in my sleep) :)

Ukraine is sitting on one of the World's largest natural gas deposits. "Largest" meaning 15th or something like that. Ukraine doesn't have the money to exploit it. When this was discovered, Putin moved on Crimea, locating Russia within close proximity of those deposits.

Apparently recently, Ukraine decided to bring in Shell and Exxon who do have the money and ability to get the gas. IF Ukraine can get the gas out of the ground and "on the road", it can sell to Europe directly.

This is a threat to Putin's monopoly on natural gas to Western Europe, and kills his blackmailing ability.

I won't even get too far into ranting on relying on other countries for basic necessities like oil. Western Europe is a perfect example and should be to those dolts on the left of what happens when you rely on others who might just be assholes with fingers on the nuke button. In a lopsided deal where we get the shit end of stick as usual, guess who Putin's biggest gas export customer is .... US.