Macron says France will spearhead operation to evacuate Mariupol

[Gunny]

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-france-spearhead-exceptional-operation-evacuate-mariupol/

I have zero problem with evacuating noncombatants.

What I will point out is: Doesn't this constitute direct involvement by NATO countries? They sure are tapdancing around that line of what is and what isn't.

Secondly, IMO, Ukraine should not give in on Mariupol at all. Ukraine is pretty much screwed if Russia is allowed to cut of access to the Black Sea and/or Sea of Azov.

I would like to say Putin isn't dumb enough to engage NATO navies with his rustbucket fleet; especially, Turkey that controls access to the Med. But we're talking Putin.

[Kathianne]

https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-france-spearhead-exceptional-operation-evacuate-mariupol/

I have zero problem with evacuating noncombatants.

What I will point out is: Doesn't this constitute direct involvement by NATO countries? They sure are tapdancing around that line of what is and what isn't.

Secondly, IMO, Ukraine should not give in on Mariupol at all. Ukraine is pretty much screwed if Russia is allowed to cut of access to the Black Sea and/or Sea of Azov.

I would like to say Putin isn't dumb enough to engage NATO navies with his rustbucket fleet; especially, Turkey that controls access to the Med. But we're talking Putin.

It sounds like France, Turkey, and Greece are doing this on own or loosely tied to EU. Truth to tell, it seems mostly the US is the only one overly concerned with Putin's reaction.

[Gunny]

It sounds like France, Turkey, and Greece are doing this on own or loosely tied to EU. Truth to tell, it seems mostly the US is the only one overly concerned with Putin's reaction.

I think that's as it should be. Not that I agree with the decision-making, but Putin has from the beginning tried to make this a US v Russia war. He has continually addressed the US, not NATO, with his rhetoric.

I see it as the same as Americans constantly thinking they can "liberate" Iran from the clutches of the Ayatollah with the same old AMerican dream (world) the Iranians would welcome, embrace and be grateful for "democracy".

No they wouldn't. They hate us more. They've been trained from birth. Same with Russians. If Putin can draw us in, he can speak to the born and bred distrust and hatred of the US. If he can swing public support and morale into "the good fight against the Evil US for Mother Russia" it would be a PR coup. As important as anything else, it would swing Russian troop morale and give them something (albeit a false flag) to fight "for".

Again, I don't think this was a conscious decision on Biden's part. An unintended consequence of Biden's weakness. Any President prior to Obama would have done exactly as I suspect Putin was planning and attack. Putin doesn't need an army in a nuclear showdown. I don't think anyone with two brain cells doubts who would flinch first between Putin and Biden.

NATO/the West needs to quit playing word games with what "is" is and get to squaring this POS away or he'll be dictating to the World.