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avatar4321
10-04-2007, 04:56 AM
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200710/CUL20071003a.html


Religion Must Be Destroyed, Atheist Alliance Declares
By Matt Purple
CNSNews.com Correspondent
October 03, 2007

(CNSNews.com) - Science must ultimately destroy organized religion, according to some of the leading atheist writers and intellectuals who spoke at a recent atheist conference in Northern Virginia. God is a myth, and children must not be schooled in any faith, they said, at the "Crystal Clear Atheism" event, sponsored by the Atheist Alliance International.

Some of the luminaries who spoke at the conference, held at the Crown Royal Hotel in Crystal City, Va., over the weekend, included Oxford professor Richard Dawkins, author Sam Harris and journalist Christopher Hitchens. The Atheist Alliance International describes itself as "the only democratic national atheist organization in the United States."

While most attendees on Friday night were adamant that God was a myth, the convention, attended by hundreds of people, brought into focus a divide among atheists as to their identity as a movement and the nature of the enemy they faced.

In his speech, Dawkins portrayed a black-and-white intellectual battle between atheism and religion. He denounced the "preposterous nonsense of religious customs" and compared religion to racism. He also gave no quarter to moderate or liberal believers, asserting that "so-called moderate Christianity is simply an evasion."

"If you've been taught to believe it by moderates, what's to stop you from taking the next step and blowing yourself up?" he said.

By contrast, Harris's speech was a more tempered critique of the atheist movement itself. While Harris said he believed science must ultimately destroy religion, he also discussed spirituality and mysticism and called for a greater understanding of allegedly spiritual phenomena. He also cautioned the audience against lumping all religions together.

"The refrain that all religions have their extremists is bull-t," Harris said. "All religions do not have their extremists. Some religions have never had their extremists."

Specifically, he noted that radical Islam was far more threatening than any radical Christian sect, adding that Christians had a right to be outraged when the media treated the two religions similarly.

Harris also criticized movement atheism and questioned the use of the word "atheist."

"Atheism is not a philosophy, just as non-racism is not," he said. "It is not a worldview, though it is frequently portrayed as one.

"Rather than declare ourselves atheists, I think we should emphasize reason," Harris added.

While the audience gave Dawkins a standing ovation, Harris received only polite applause. One questioner later declared herself "very disappointed" in Harris's talk.

But whatever differences the speakers had with each other, they were united in their contempt for religion and their belief that religious faith had to be challenged and ridiculed by secularism and reason.

"Religion is not the root of all evil, but it gets in the way of [determining] how we got here and where we find ourselves," Dawkins said. "And that is an evil in itself."

Dawkins was particularly critical of parents who raise their children as a "Catholic child" or "Protestant child." Children must not be labeled as subscribing to a particular religion, he said, and should be allowed to examine the evidence and determine their beliefs for themselves.

"If I said that's a post-modernist child, for example, you'd think I was mad," he quipped.

Other speakers at the convention included philosopher Daniel Dennett, evolutionary scientist Eugenie Scott, and Charles Darwin's great-great-grandson Matthew Chapman. There was also a performance by atheist rapper Greydon Square, who wore a shirt that read "The Black Carl Sagan."

Many of the attendees seemed to have developed an aversion to religion from conservative, Protestant Christians. Several of the atheists Cybercast News Service spoke to complained of living under fundamentalist parents who frowned upon any questioning of the Bible or any activity condemned in Scripture.

"It wasn't easy [telling my parents I was an atheist]," one said. "I still haven't entirely told them. I just say I'm a humanist, which they don't seem to mind."

Further emphasizing the attendees' distaste for conservative religion was the convention gift shop which, in addition to atheist materials, sold politically liberal-themed bumper stickers and pins, including "Impeach Bush" and "Stewart/Colbert '08."

A common decoration at the convention was the red letter "A," which was emblazoned on t-shirts and pins worn by several of the attendees. The "A," an allusion to Hester Prynne's punishment in Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter, is a symbol of the Out Campaign, a movement started by Dawkins to encourage Americans to proudly display their atheism.

Although Crystal Clear Atheism was well-attended, it received little publicity and media attention. The convention also experienced frequent technical difficulties, particularly during Dawkins' Powerpoint slideshow.

Atheists are still a small minority in America. A Newsweek poll earlier this year found that 91 percent of Americans believe in God. A more recent Pew Research Center poll found that atheists were among the most distrusted people in the nation, with 53 percent of Americans holding an unfavorable opinion of them.

But they are a proudly elitist and self-certain minority. When asked what the main difference between believers and atheists was, Dawkins had a quick answer: "Well, we're bright."

how long can people advocate destroying others before genocide occurs?

diuretic
10-04-2007, 08:10 AM
how long can people advocate destroying others before genocide occurs?

Where did you get that from?

darin
10-04-2007, 08:47 AM
weird that Science points to God...

diuretic
10-04-2007, 08:47 AM
weird that Science points to God...

It does?

darin
10-04-2007, 09:01 AM
absolutely. Science is the best argument for God around. :D

truthmatters
10-04-2007, 09:44 AM
Just more proof to me that organised religion creates problems. Even when its a bunch of anthiests getting to gether to tell themselfs they are better than others.

You see when people gang together in a like mind that they have the answer and everyone else is too stupid or immoral to understand we get this kind of elitest reaction.

These people are a pack of clowns.Christopher Hitchens is also very Right wing so its not just liberals.

Have you seen his new book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_not_Great

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 10:08 AM
Just more proof to me that organised religion creates problems. Even when its a bunch of anthiests getting to gether to tell themselfs they are better than others.

You see when people gang together in a like mind that they have the answer and everyone else is too stupid or immoral to understand we get this kind of elitest reaction.

These people are a pack of clowns.Christopher Hitchens is also very Right wing so its not just liberals.

Have you seen his new book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_not_Great

Right,right,right, have you ever Left that out of one of your opinions?

I guess when people gether themselfs they have the right to feel better than others, afterall it is probably a private affair. :poke:

truthmatters
10-04-2007, 10:10 AM
I never said they did not have the right to gather.

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 10:14 AM
I never said they did not have the right to gather.

Just messin' with ya Jenny. :)

truthmatters
10-04-2007, 10:15 AM
Just messin' with ya Jenny. :)

Whos Jenny?

867-5309 is not my number.

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 10:26 AM
Whos Jenny?

867-5309 is not my number.

:laugh2:

I liked that one!

I kind of figured though that you were missing the quotes I have been using.

truthmatters
10-04-2007, 10:36 AM
I guess I have missed them because Im still not getting it.

I bet they never will be able to give that number to anyone again.

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 10:42 AM
I guess I have missed them because Im still not getting it.

I bet they never will be able to give that number to anyone again.

Life is like a box of chocolates Jenny, ya never know what you're gonna get next. lol, especially from me. :D

truthmatters
10-04-2007, 10:59 AM
Life is like a box of chocolates Jenny, ya never know what you're gonna get next. lol, especially from me. :D

Oh OK I do remember you doing that one. I guess I was just not identifing with it.

Hagbard Celine
10-04-2007, 11:00 AM
absolutely. Science is the best argument for God around. :D

How d'ya figure? Seems to me that the more scientific knowledge progresses, the more it seems less plausible that there is a supernatural element to reality.
In my opinion, these people are onto something. The biggest enemy our nation/world faces is ignorance enforced by religious doctrine.

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 11:01 AM
Oh OK I do remember you doing that one. I guess I was just not identifing with it.

:laugh2:

ruined all the fun I had in that case.:slap:

darin
10-04-2007, 11:10 AM
How d'ya figure? Seems to me that the more scientific knowledge progresses, the more it seems less plausible that there is a supernatural element to reality.
In my opinion, these people are onto something. The biggest enemy our nation/world faces is ignorance enforced by religious doctrine.

...you're closed-minded. That's why it seems that way to you. You don't WANT God to exist, therefore you refuse to see Him.

truthmatters
10-04-2007, 11:14 AM
...you're closed-minded. That's why it seems that way to you. You don't WANT God to exist, therefore you refuse to see Him.


How would you feel about science if it found God?

What if that was the whole point of Gods plan and we were put here to use our intellect to take the journey from pure belief to proof via science?

I really think that is what mans journey is. I just think the god we will find is not well described my mans acient writings.

DrJohn
10-04-2007, 11:15 AM
I would never say that there is no God....

but, I don't want my kids being taught about Him in public schools.

They can learn at home or in church, but not at school.
Hell, we're having enough trouble teaching them Math, Science, and English.

Abbey
10-04-2007, 11:19 AM
I wonder what the reaction would be in that room if it was announced that a giant meteor was going to hit them in 1 minute, and there was no escaping it. I'm betting lots of frantic prayer and crying out to that non-existent God.

DrJohn
10-04-2007, 11:21 AM
I wonder what the reaction would be in that room if it was announced that a giant meteor was going to hit them in 1 minute, and there was no escaping it. I'm betting lots of frantic prayer and crying out to that non-existent God.



You could be right although they may do what Bush did when he heard that we were under attack:

read a copy of 'My Pet Goat'

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 11:23 AM
You could be right although they may do what Bush did when he heard that we were under attack:

read a copy of 'My Pet Goat'

:rolleyes:

Another bush basher?

Abbey
10-04-2007, 11:24 AM
You could be right although they may do what Bush did when he heard that we were under attack:

read a copy of 'My Pet Goat'

Oh dear. DrJohn, are you going to be another poster who turns every thread into a platform for Bush-hatin'?

Edited to add: Sir Evil, we posted this at the same time. :>)

DrJohn
10-04-2007, 11:26 AM
I wanted to be a little different. It looks like there are plenty of liberal bashers here already.

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 11:27 AM
Oh dear. DrJohn, are you going to be another poster who turns every thread into a platform for Bush-hatin'?

Edited to add: Sir Evil, we posted this at the same time. :>)

:D


well I guess once it has been said on all dicussions that have nothing to do with Bush, one tends to see what exactly said users really dislikes. I don't get it, George is a handsome fella.

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 11:28 AM
I wanted to be a little different. It looks like there are plenty of liberal bashers here already.

:laugh2::laugh2:

Please be different, the others here have done this already, here as well as everywhere they post.

Abbey
10-04-2007, 11:30 AM
I wanted to be a little different. It looks like there are plenty of liberal bashers here already.

Around here, different would be: "I love George Bush's immigration policies!" :laugh2:

DrJohn
10-04-2007, 11:33 AM
:laugh2::laugh2:

Please be different, the others here have done this already, here as well as everywhere they post.



I have spent the last year at another site (not sure if I'm allowed to post a link here) where the liberals outnumber the conservatives 10 to 1.
As I said in the introduction thread, I love the diversity found here.

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 11:36 AM
I have spent the last year at another site (not sure if I'm allowed to post a link here) where the liberals outnumber the conservatives 10 to 1.
As I said in the introduction thread, I love the diversity found here.

Doctor Doctor, gimme the news I got a Bad case of seeing through you. :D

:laugh2:

I dunno the deal on posting links but I think most know the majority of other political boards, we all tend to peek in on them once in awhile so familiar with what to expect.

DrJohn
10-04-2007, 11:41 AM
The site is only about a year old and it's un-moderated. You can only be banned for threats or stealing content.
They do tend to gang up on conservatives but they are basically good people.

www.politicalbrawlhall.com

If I've messed up by posting this link, I apologize.

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 11:44 AM
The site is only about a year old and it's un-moderated. You can only be banned for threats or stealing content.
They do tend to gang up on conservatives but they are basically good people.

www.politicalbrawlhall.com

If I've messed up by posting this link, I apologize.

Don't take it personal if the link is edited out, could happen. Sounds like it could be fun but I would assume it would be damn near the opposite of here, right?

DrJohn
10-04-2007, 11:50 AM
Don't take it personal if the link is edited out, could happen. Sounds like it could be fun but I would assume it would be damn near the opposite of here, right?


It's the polar opposite but it got boring with everyone always agreeing with each other.
I invited one of my conservative friends to join there and he was kind of ganged up on and eventually left. They need more right-leaning members.
I decided to take a self-imposed time out after a stupid argument with one of the administraters. I'm sure I'll eventually go back but, Hey, I can handle two boards, can't I?

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 11:51 AM
It's the polar opposite but it got boring with everyone always agreeing with each other.
I invited one of my conservative friends to join there and he was kind of ganged up on and eventually left. They need more right-leaning members.
I decided to take a self-imposed time out after a stupid argument with one of the administraters. I'm sure I'll eventually go back but, Hey, I can handle two boards, can't I?

Happens all the time, no fun when all agree. No worries though, you will never get ganged up on here. :laugh2:

Hagbard Celine
10-04-2007, 11:58 AM
...you're closed-minded. That's why it seems that way to you. You don't WANT God to exist, therefore you refuse to see Him.

I would never fully deny God's existence. I think God is there, but you're right. I don't see "him." Nothing scientific knowledge has revealed has hinted at the existence of a God. It just hasn't. Everytime we humans make a new scientific discovery, it further dilutes the legitimacy of the whole "God theory" because it enlightens us to a new aspect of how our reality is structured around us. When we know that everything around is made of atoms, not the magical substances fire, water, earth, wind, that it is electricity, not a "soul" that animates us, that biological diversity is the result of genetic variation, not "creative decision," it makes the existence of a "creator" less plausible in my mind because if we humans with our primitive monkey brains are capable of understanding every single aspect of this whole "system" we call reality and the universe and we haven't come across anything in it that can't be explained and/or picked apart piece by piece and put back together again with natural and scientific explanation, then there really is no such thing as the "supernatural."

truthmatters
10-04-2007, 12:18 PM
It's the polar opposite but it got boring with everyone always agreeing with each other.
I invited one of my conservative friends to join there and he was kind of ganged up on and eventually left. They need more right-leaning members.
I decided to take a self-imposed time out after a stupid argument with one of the administraters. I'm sure I'll eventually go back but, Hey, I can handle two boards, can't I?


I visit many sites and have been hanging here lately due to the complete lack of people on the left of the spectrum being here.

This place seems to be friends who have known each other for a long time here.

Sir Evil
10-04-2007, 12:21 PM
This place seems to be friends who have known each other for a long time here.

Don't want to be our friend Jenny?

remie
10-04-2007, 01:24 PM
I would never say that there is no God....

but, I don't want my kids being taught about Him in public schools.

They can learn at home or in church, but not at school.
Hell, we're having enough trouble teaching them Math, Science, and English.

What about having the ability to practice what they learn at home and church in a school setting? Is school prayer ok or not?

Hagbard Celine
10-04-2007, 01:29 PM
What about having the ability to practice what they learn at home and church in a school setting? Is school prayer ok or not?

Not school LED prayer. As long as schools are government institutions, they can't lead students in prayer, which is what they used to do. There's absolutely nothing stopping students from praying in school today. They even have a moment of silence before or after the pledge that is specifically delegated for that purpose. The argument that prayer "isn't allowed in schools" has absolutely no basis in fact. I think the Christian fundamentalists who argue otherwise are just pissed that the government no longer gives their religion special favor.

mrg666
10-04-2007, 01:32 PM
What about having the ability to practice what they learn at home and church in a school setting? Is school prayer ok or not?

during adulthood there are two ways to go believer / non believer as long as they have had the instruction at a early age ( not brain washed ) they can make a choice for any one to force atheism onto them at a early age is wrong , the same argument could go in reverse to a small degree .
in the uk we have schools that are making christian kids learn the muslim faith this i strongly dissagree with , hows about making the muslim kids learn some christian faith and sing some good old christian hymns

theHawk
10-04-2007, 02:02 PM
Not school LED prayer. As long as schools are government institutions, they can't lead students in prayer, which is what they used to do. There's absolutely nothing stopping students from praying in school today. They even have a moment of silence before or after the pledge that is specifically delegated for that purpose. The argument that prayer "isn't allowed in schools" has absolutely no basis in fact. I think the Christian fundamentalists who argue otherwise are just pissed that the government no longer gives their religion special favor.

Prayers are led at luncheons and ceremonies in the military every day. Thats a government institution, should we not be allowed to be lead in prayer at such events?

theHawk
10-04-2007, 02:14 PM
In his speech, Dawkins portrayed a black-and-white intellectual battle between atheism and religion. He denounced the "preposterous nonsense of religious customs" and compared religion to racism. He also gave no quarter to moderate or liberal believers, asserting that "so-called moderate Christianity is simply an evasion."

"If you've been taught to believe it by moderates, what's to stop you from taking the next step and blowing yourself up?" he said.

By contrast, Harris's speech was a more tempered critique of the atheist movement itself. While Harris said he believed science must ultimately destroy religion, he also discussed spirituality and mysticism and called for a greater understanding of allegedly spiritual phenomena. He also cautioned the audience against lumping all religions together.

"The refrain that all religions have their extremists is bull-t," Harris said. "All religions do not have their extremists. Some religions have never had their extremists."

Yea, as if athiests can't be extremists either. One word - Columbine. Despite the media's attempt to pin their movitations on music, video games, or nazism, the two little shits that killed everyone where great believers in Darwinism. One of them even wore a t-shirt saying "natural selection" during the killings.
Blamming organized religion on many of the problems of the world is absolutely absurd. If it wasn't for religion, people would define morality howeer they wished, usually to suit their needs.

remie
10-04-2007, 02:22 PM
I was hoping to get a response from Drjohn. I could have guessed Hags response. It has been my observation that everything possible has been done to remove God from school and to me that is a sorry state of affairs.

Hagbard Celine
10-04-2007, 02:33 PM
Prayers are led at luncheons and ceremonies in the military every day. Thats a government institution, should we not be allowed to be lead in prayer at such events?

This isn't a valid comparison. Military personnel aren't minors so they can choose to take part in prayers if they want to. However, since school children are minors, their parents can still take exception when their government forces them to take part in religious ceremonies that contradict what they have taught or are trying to teach their children about religion/god.

DrJohn
10-04-2007, 06:12 PM
What about having the ability to practice what they learn at home and church in a school setting? Is school prayer ok or not?



I agree that it should not be LED prayer. Not Christian, Muslim, whatever.

Said1
10-04-2007, 06:18 PM
I agree that it should not be LED prayer. Not Christian, Muslim, whatever.

I don't get it. Give an example of non-denominational prayer.

DrJohn
10-04-2007, 06:21 PM
I don't get it. Give an example of non-denominational prayer.


Maybe I should have been clearer.

NO LED prayer of any kind.

Said1
10-04-2007, 06:23 PM
Maybe I should have been clearer.

NO LED prayer of any kind.


Oh. You mean no praying. Got it.

DrJohn
10-04-2007, 06:27 PM
Oh. You mean no praying. Got it.

That's not what I said but if that's what you think, OK.

Hagbard Celine
10-04-2007, 06:33 PM
Maybe I should have been clearer.

NO LED prayer of any kind.

I even think it's okay for a teacher to lead a prayer for a group of like-minded students as long as he/she makes it clear that it's not mandatory or policy. The problem I have is that many of the conservative Christian lot want to make it part of the school's curricula or part of the mandatory regimin, like the pledge. In a nation whose rule number one is religious freedom, it's absurd.

diuretic
10-04-2007, 06:54 PM
absolutely. Science is the best argument for God around. :D

Just catching up on the thread, it looks like it took off :laugh2:

diuretic
10-04-2007, 07:03 PM
absolutely. Science is the best argument for God around. :D

I think TM made a similar point but, what if god is just another hypothesis? Science would try to prove the hypothesis. But since it's impossible (I would think) and certainly pointless to try, why bother? So science creeps along in its methodical but detailed manner working out what's what. And the important aspect about it is that all the knowledge is continually built up until we know more and more about stuff. And one day, despite my assertion that proving god is impossible, maybe science will do so. But if god doesn't exist science won't be able to prove that. But if god does exist then science could prove it. But if god did exist then science could be thwarted by god denying science the ability to prove god.

truthmatters
10-04-2007, 07:18 PM
How would you feel about science if it found God?

What if that was the whole point of Gods plan and we were put here to use our intellect to take the journey from pure belief to proof via science?

I really think that is what mans journey is. I just think the god we will find is not well described my mans acient writings.


I think whatever science finds eventually the God question will be answered and I think what most people think of as god will be different from what we find. I think it is possible that humans are not yet prepared for what we will find and what Gods really is. Science will make us ready to understand it as we near the conclusion. Just like the acients could not understand the world revolving arround the sun we can not yet understand what god really is.

Dilloduck
10-04-2007, 07:23 PM
I think whatever science finds eventually the God question will be answered and I think what most people think of as god will be different from what we find. I think it is possible that humans are not yet prepared for what we will find and what Gods really is. Science will make us ready to understand it as we near the conclusion. Just like the acients could not understand the world revolving arround the sun we can not yet understand what god really is.

The bible says that too

truthmatters
10-04-2007, 07:25 PM
I truely think science will take us there and that some will fight all the way.

diuretic
10-04-2007, 07:44 PM
I truely think science will take us there and that some will fight all the way.

Yep. There are still those who want god to be a bloke with a grey beard sitting on a throne in heaven. I remember reading a science fiction short story which portrayed god as being a very alien-looking reptile. I suppose that was the point of the story, god - presuming there is a god - could be anything, it's just that we humans, on our little planet, like to think that god made us as human representations of god. Bit of an ego problem there I think :laugh2:

I think it's more interesting to think of the possibilities than simply subscribe to dogma. I mean, how did the universe come into being? Isn't that a great question? How big is it? How old is it? Will it end? Is it finite? Is it infinite? If it's infinite what does that mean? I love those questions. I get sort of disappointed when I'm met with the prepared responses that god did everything. I'm supposed to be satisfied with that.

Dilloduck
10-04-2007, 07:47 PM
Yep. There are still those who want god to be a bloke with a grey beard sitting on a throne in heaven. I remember reading a science fiction short story which portrayed god as being a very alien-looking reptile. I suppose that was the point of the story, god - presuming there is a god - could be anything, it's just that we humans, on our little planet, like to think that god made us as human representations of god. Bit of an ego problem there I think :laugh2:

I think it's more interesting to think of the possibilities than simply subscribe to dogma. I mean, how did the universe come into being? Isn't that a great question? How big is it? How old is it? Will it end? Is it finite? Is it infinite? If it's infinite what does that mean? I love those questions. I get sort of disappointed when I'm met with the prepared responses that god did everything. I'm supposed to be satisfied with that.

A dogma that says you are loved even though you may not understand everything yet? Oh my---how horrible.

diuretic
10-04-2007, 08:02 PM
A dogma that says you are loved even though you may not understand evrything yet? Oh my---how horrible.

What does that mean? It's not even addressing my point. But in a way it proves my point.

Dilloduck
10-04-2007, 08:13 PM
What does that mean? It's not even addressing my point. But in a way it proves my point.


I think it's more interesting to think of the possibilities than simply subscribe to dogma.

People really need to read what they post-----really !!!

actsnoblemartin
10-04-2007, 08:40 PM
it looks like atheists hate christians, theirs a shocker.



http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200710/CUL20071003a.html



how long can people advocate destroying others before genocide occurs?

Missileman
10-04-2007, 08:47 PM
it looks like atheists hate christians, theirs a shocker.

I don't know why...they are for all practical purposes the same thing. Atheists don't believe in anyone's god...Christians don't believe in anyone else's god. They share an amazing amount of common belief.

Abbey
10-04-2007, 08:52 PM
I even think it's okay for a teacher to lead a prayer for a group of like-minded students as long as he/she makes it clear that it's not mandatory or policy. The problem I have is that many of the conservative Christian lot want to make it part of the school's curricula or part of the mandatory regimin, like the pledge. In a nation whose rule number one is religious freedom, it's absurd.

This Christian does not want that.

diuretic
10-04-2007, 10:05 PM
People really need to read what they post-----really !!!

Come on Dillo - you might be in Austin but spare me the Texas Two Step :coffee:

Be direct, please :cool:

theHawk
10-04-2007, 11:07 PM
This isn't a valid comparison. Military personnel aren't minors so they can choose to take part in prayers if they want to. However, since school children are minors, their parents can still take exception when their government forces them to take part in religious ceremonies that contradict what they have taught or are trying to teach their children about religion/god.

How is it "forcing" them to take part in religious ceremony? Non-believers simply can't stand there and listen to a prayer for one minute? I find it amazing, this notion that if non-believers have to listen to a prayer somehow they'll be brainwashed into becoming a religious person....they must be pretty weak-minded people. Children need to be taught to be tolerant of religion, if you can't stand still and listen to a quick prayer and respect other people's religious beliefs and customs then you'r not going to be able to function very well in American society.

Gunny
10-05-2007, 04:27 AM
Just more proof to me that organised religion creates problems. Even when its a bunch of anthiests getting to gether to tell themselfs they are better than others.

You see when people gang together in a like mind that they have the answer and everyone else is too stupid or immoral to understand we get this kind of elitest reaction.

These people are a pack of clowns.Christopher Hitchens is also very Right wing so its not just liberals.

Have you seen his new book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_not_Great

LMAO ... as opposed to your thinking on your own that YOU have the answer and everyone else is too stupid or immoral to understand?

-Cp
10-05-2007, 02:31 PM
Just more proof to me that organised religion creates problems. Even when its a bunch of anthiests getting to gether to tell themselfs they are better than others.

You see when people gang together in a like mind that they have the answer and everyone else is too stupid or immoral to understand we get this kind of elitest reaction.


You're right! Organized religion does cause problems! So does organized Government - local, state and federal - perhaps we should get rid of them too eh?

avatar4321
10-05-2007, 03:43 PM
You're right! Organized religion does cause problems! So does organized Government - local, state and federal - perhaps we should get rid of them too eh?

personally, I think chaotic religion is much worse than organized religion. Same is true for government.

Yurt
10-05-2007, 04:29 PM
How d'ya figure? Seems to me that the more scientific knowledge progresses, the more it seems less plausible that there is a supernatural element to reality.
In my opinion, these people are onto something. The biggest enemy our nation/world faces is ignorance enforced by religious doctrine.

Really?

How many times have the theories by "scientist" been changed?

So you are willing to believe in a "religion" that says [I am truth, I seek truth, I have the "truth" method] over some silly religion?

Admit it, your religion has no absolute fact(s) to back it up. Your religion's fact(s) change all the time. And you know it. You just can't stand that maybe, just maybe, there is a God.

manu1959
10-05-2007, 05:04 PM
Really?

How many times have the theories by "scientist" been changed?

So you are willing to believe in a "religion" that says [I am truth, I seek truth, I have the "truth" method] over some silly religion?

Admit it, your religion has no absolute fact(s) to back it up. Your religion's fact(s) change all the time. And you know it. You just can't stand that maybe, just maybe, there is a God.

their "religion" once thought the world was flat....that the sun revolved around the earth....that the atom was the smalest particle....that there were nine planets no wait eight.....

Yurt
10-05-2007, 05:36 PM
their "religion" once thought the world was flat....that the sun revolved around the earth....that the atom was the smalest particle....that there were nine planets no wait eight.....

I may be wrong, but was it not the catholic church that taught the flat earth? I know Islam is a heliocentric belief, and the catholic church at one time, but there were/are faiths that do not adhere to that.

My question(s):

Is there a true faith?

How can we tell?

A round earth or a flat earth, is this guidence?

Gaffer
10-05-2007, 06:29 PM
Science is not a religion. It's a search for knowledge. You do not believe in science, you observe its results. If you believe in creationism you cannot look at the world from a scientific perspective. Because you already have a preconceived notion of things.

Everything we have today in the way of technology is because of science. Not religion. Religion taken to its fundamental end gives you the taliban and similar groups. Science takes you to the stars.

If you can't except archaeological findings and geological findings that the world is over 4 billion years old. How can you accept medical break throughs, or that we have satellites in space or even the fact your on the internet. You can accept that a satellite can take a picture of an ant on a leaf from space. But you can't accept geological surveys saying something is millions of years old.

If the universe were created 5000 years ago we would not be able to see most of the stars in the sky, as the light from most of them would take millions of years to reach us. Unless you don't believe in the speed of light.

Liberals are liars. Environmentalists are liars. Fundamentalists are liars. They all bend the truth to what they want it to say. Science only deals in facts. Now we all know liberals have a hard time with facts. Well so do fundamentalists when it comes to science. They can't accept facts that get in the way of their beliefs. So many of them try to create their own science. Pseudoscience. It's designed to prove a falsehood as the truth. To give credence to fundamental beliefs.

It's fine to question something that threatens your belief. But its not fine to create phony facts or deny certain means of testing because you don't like the results. I have looked at and read a number of these pseudoscience reports and I find them to be pathetic.

Now I'm going to sit back and wait for the second part of chesswars fantasy story.

April15
10-05-2007, 10:07 PM
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200710/CUL20071003a.html



how long can people advocate destroying others before genocide occurs?Until Religions are abolished.

diuretic
10-06-2007, 12:07 AM
Until Religions are abolished.

Religions won't be abolished, they'll simply wither away.

avatar4321
10-06-2007, 04:02 AM
Until Religions are abolished.

so are you one who wants the abolition of religions through genocide?

Missileman
10-06-2007, 09:22 AM
so are you one who wants the abolition of religions through genocide?

Who, besides you, has even suggested genocide?

avatar4321
10-06-2007, 10:39 AM
Who, besides you, has even suggested genocide?

History suggests that people who use such rhetoric resort to genocide when they have the opportunity.

truthmatters
10-06-2007, 10:43 AM
History suggests that people who use such rhetoric resort to genocide when they have the opportunity.

I have seen you advocate for genocide of Muslims.

Said1
10-06-2007, 10:51 AM
I have seen you advocate for genocide of Muslims.

Really, where? I had no idea avatar wanted all Muslims dead. Where did he write that?

April15
10-06-2007, 12:35 PM
so are you one who wants the abolition of religions through genocide?I just hope to have an earth left when they start killing each other off. They are the ones who will be committing the genocide.
I think when humans can see religions are teaching intolerance of other religions through the idea that there is only one true religion, they will wake up to the notion of fatalistic intent that promotes a armageddon.

PostmodernProphet
10-06-2007, 05:40 PM
intolerance of other religions through the idea that there is only one true religion

just out of curiousity.....when you believe something to be true, do you also believe that everyone who believes the opposite of you is also right?

April15
10-06-2007, 05:51 PM
just out of curiousity.....when you believe something to be true, do you also believe that everyone who believes the opposite of you is also right?Nope! that is why religion will be the ruinaton of the world. Already got a good start on armageddon.

Said1
10-08-2007, 09:24 AM
Nope! that is why religion will be the ruinaton of the world. Already got a good start on armageddon.

Actually, it makes you the same. But never mind. :laugh2:

Hagbard Celine
10-08-2007, 10:08 AM
Really?

How many times have the theories by "scientist" been changed?

So you are willing to believe in a "religion" that says [I am truth, I seek truth, I have the "truth" method] over some silly religion?

Admit it, your religion has no absolute fact(s) to back it up. Your religion's fact(s) change all the time. And you know it. You just can't stand that maybe, just maybe, there is a God.

Not sure if I follow. If I'm reading you right, and I like to think that I am, you're suggesting that science is my religion. Since "knowledge," which is what science is, is not in fact a religion per se, I don't really understand why you would say that it is. I guess your small mind isn't capable of holding two ideas at once, which would explain why you might think that learning is a religion. :dunno: I don't want to speculate any further into what exactly is going on inside that head of yours, but would like to tell you a little about myself since you were nice enough to ask.
I'm not an active participant in any religion that I'm aware of. I haven't been to a church service in ages--the buildings have such a "public" smell, like a mixture of feet and construction paper. However, grape juice and paper wafers aside, I do acknowledge God's presence and I even talk to it every so often so don't be so quick to judge me there Ito.
The ever-changing nature of scientific knowledge is natural. Every time a new discovery is made it builds upon and sometimes changes what was previously thought to be true.
If you want to shun 2000 years of built-up human knowledge, go right ahead. Cling to that old oral tribal history of the jews you like so much. That's fine for you. But stop giving the rest of us a hard time for being interested in learning new things.

diuretic
10-08-2007, 07:32 PM
Really?

How many times have the theories by "scientist" been changed?

So you are willing to believe in a "religion" that says [I am truth, I seek truth, I have the "truth" method] over some silly religion?

Admit it, your religion has no absolute fact(s) to back it up. Your religion's fact(s) change all the time. And you know it. You just can't stand that maybe, just maybe, there is a God.

Calling science a "religion" is really silly. It's not. It's a process. Science doesn't really care if there is a god or not, it's working its way slowly through the mysteries of the universe and who knows what it will find?

And another thing. Science doesn't threaten religion, religion is largely irrelevant to the process science. The Roman Catholic church is relaxed with science, look at the Jesuits, they're right into it. Vatican II got to grips with science back in the 1960s when Blessed John XXIII kicked it off. Granted, under the current Pope, who is more theologically conservative than Blessed John XXIII, things might slow down a bit but I doubt if the Vatican will find another Galileo any time soon.

Science does threaten fundamental Christian beliefs. The literalists will scream and shout and condemn science every time it disproves a literal interpretation of the Bible. But that's a theological argument. True, in Catholicism the Bible isn't taken literally, it's seen as something which has to be interpreted and as illuminating though and reason in the religious discussion and in the liturgy.

PostmodernProphet
10-08-2007, 07:36 PM
Calling science a "religion" is really silly. It's not. It's a process. Science doesn't really care if there is a god or not, it's working its way slowly through the mysteries of the universe and who knows what it will find?

there is no doubt that for some, a belief in science has become a religion....

Fear1030
10-23-2007, 09:02 PM
absolutely. Science is the best argument for God around. :D
No it doesn't. Creationism and ID as proof? :bsflag:.

diuretic
10-23-2007, 10:38 PM
there is no doubt that for some, a belief in science has become a religion....

I missed this last time round. I think it might be the case that some of us put our faith in science. I don't know if it could be called a religion because I think a religion is far more complex than simple belief in a process. I know I trust science more than religion and that's for many reasons.

avatar4321
10-24-2007, 02:43 AM
I have seen you advocate for genocide of Muslims.

news to me. Is this sort of like how you seek after and love truth?

PostmodernProphet
10-24-2007, 07:01 AM
I don't know if it could be called a religion because I think a religion is far more complex than simple belief in a process. I know I trust science more than religion and that's for many reasons.

true....."religion" would be when identifiable characteristics develop around a belief system.....things such as doctrines, creeds, apologetics, rituals.....I trust science more than the religion of science, too......