CA Libs - No Smoking In Your Own Apartment

[red states rule]

Now do gooder libs want to tell you what you can and can't do in your own apartment or condo.

Is there any aspect of life libs do not want control over?

And they say Pres Bush is taking away your rights


Calif. cities mull smoking ban for apartments

By Wendy Koch, USA TODAY
Lawmakers in two California cities are discussing unprecedented legislation this month that would widen a growing voluntary movement by landlords and resident associations to ban smoking inside apartments and condos.
Next Tuesday, the City Council of Belmont is scheduled to cast a final vote on an ordinance that would ban smoking in apartments and condos. The measure, which won initial approval last week, could trigger fines and evictions if neighbors complain and smokers don't heed repeated warnings.


YOUR VIEW: What do you think of the Calif. proposals? If you smoke, where do you light up?
TENANTS TANGLE: Neighbors take sides on tobacco

In Calabasas on Wednesday, the City Council discussed a proposal that would expand its anti-smoking law to bar lighting up inside existing apartments and most new condos. The council agreed to request changes to the measure that would exempt all condos and set aside a certain percentage of apartments for smokers, says city spokesman Michael Hafken. It is slated to consider the revised proposal next month.

The legislative push, which has triggered death threats against council members in both cities, is a controversial part of a mostly voluntary effort to prod landlords and condo associations to adopt smoke-free policies.

Health officials in about 30 states promote the health and economic benefits, including reduced fire risk and lower cleanup costs for multiunit housing, says Jim Bergman, director of the Smoke-Free Environments Law Project, a Michigan group funded partly by the state.

Tens of thousands of apartments and condos have gone smoke-free in the past five years, management companies and health activists say. Last month, Guardian Management began phasing in a smoke-free policy at 8,000 of its rental units, mostly in Oregon and Washington.

"We've proven the voluntary approach can work very well," Bergman says. He doesn't think legislative bans will work because of a "my home is my castle" philosophy.

"The time has come. The evils of smoking have been known for decades," says Barry Groveman, a Calabasas councilman who co-wrote the proposal.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-10-03-smoking-bans_N.htm?csp=34

[Dilloduck]

http://www.crihb.org/FCHS/tobacco.htm

Gotta love that link-----





Culturally-appropriate prevention of commercial tobacco abuse among American Indian youth

[Gaffer]

There is one of many reasons I won't live in or even visit calif.

I left there in 1973 and never looked back.

[Immanuel]

As a native Californian, transplanted to Florida, and a non-smoker, I must say that if I lived in either one of those cities, I'd light up just to support the rights of smokers. Next thing you know they will outlaw breaking wind.

Immie

[mrg666]

in the whole of the uk regardless of property ownership if a workman ie gas man , electrician etc is visiting your home (or any one on buisness ) it is ilegal to smoke upto an hour before they arrive and they can refuse to carry out the work ?
it's pc gone f****n mad

[April15]

Belmont is just down the road from my city. I like the law. It is why California is the leader in innovation. We do what others haven't the balls for.

[red states rule]

Libs are never happy unless they are sticking their blue nose into other peoples lives

[Immanuel]

Libs are never happy unless they are sticking their blue nose into other peoples lives

Funny, when I started posting on these boards, that is what I remember hearing about me as a Conservative. "Conservatives want in our bedrooms." I can't even begin to tell you how many times I read that.

Maybe it is truth, but maybe it is truth because it is human nature not politically inclined.

Immie

PS The last place I want to be is in your bedroom. Well, if you are a hot blond female... wait, I'm married forget it.

[red states rule]

Funny, when I started posting on these boards, that is what I remember hearing about me as a Conservative. "Conservatives want in our bedrooms." I can't even begin to tell you how many times I read that.

Maybe it is truth, but maybe it is truth because it is human nature not politically inclined.

Immie

PS The last place I want to be is in your bedroom. Well, if you are a hot blond female... wait, I'm married forget it.

Hell to a liberal is being unable to tell people who to live their lives

[retiredman]

Isn't the issue that in condo and apartment complexes the shared second hand smoke is problematic?

The law does not apply to single family dwellings.

[red states rule]

Isn't the issue that in condo and apartment complexes the shared second hand smoke is problematic?

The law does not apply to single family dwellings.

In Mongoery County MD. libs are trying to make it against the law to smoke in your own back yard (yes, in single family homes)

Give in to libs on this on, and they will soon be back and try to include your private home

[Immanuel]

Isn't the issue that in condo and apartment complexes the shared second hand smoke is problematic?

The law does not apply to single family dwellings.

Having lived in apartments before, I don't recall ever noticing the smell of smoke from my neighbors. I honestly don't believe this to be anything more than discrimination against smokers. The PC crowd doesn't like smokers and has taken it upon themselves to eliminate them.

I am not a smoker. I tried it at 13 and quit after less than a week. I can't stand the smell of smoke on my clothes or in what little hair I have left and regardless of what a smoker tries to tell you just being around them the smell gets in your clothes, but I would never presume to make them stop smoking simply because they are around me.

Immie

[red states rule]

Having lived in apartments before, I don't recall ever noticing the smell of smoke from my neighbors. I honestly don't believe this to be anything more than discrimination against smokers. The PC crowd doesn't like smokers and has taken it upon themselves to eliminate them.

I am not a smoker. I tried it at 13 and quit after less than a week. I can't stand the smell of smoke on my clothes or in what little hair I have left and regardless of what a smoker tries to tell you just being around them the smell gets in your clothes, but I would never presume to make them stop smoking simply because they are around me.

Immie

Some people (like MM) love to bitch and whine. They are not happy unless they are

What is next? Your neighbor is a vegetarian and he/she can call the cops when you grill steaks in the back yard, because the smoke and smell bothers them?

[Immanuel]

Some people (like MM) love to bitch and whine. They are not happy unless they are

What is next? Your neighbor is a vegetarian and he/she can call the cops when you grill steaks in the back yard, because the smoke and smell bothers them?

That comes after making passing gas illegal.

Immie

[red states rule]

That comes after making passing gas illegal.

Immie

I thought at one time the left has that covered

Federal

Agency to

Regulate

Tobacco

[April15]

Hell to a liberal is being unable to tell people how to live their livesI do believe you have that reversed. As a lib I could care less what you do as long as you leave me alone.

[retiredman]

Some people (like MM) love to bitch and whine. They are not happy unless they are

What is next? Your neighbor is a vegetarian and he/she can call the cops when you grill steaks in the back yard, because the smoke and smell bothers them?

I am not bitching and I am not whining. I don't smoke. I own my own home. Unlike yours, mine doesn't have wheels. I could care less. Tobacco smoke contains carcinogens. I would not like my neighbor smoking out in the back yard but I know full well it is none of my damned business. If I lived in an apartment, I might have a different, less tolerant opinion of my neighbor smoking... but it's moot, since I never will.

[JackDaniels]

Belmont is just down the road from my city. I like the law. It is why California is the leader in innovation. We do what others haven't the balls for.

It's funny how you gloat in the wake of taking Liberty away from people. You're no better than the fascist Republicans.

[JackDaniels]

I do believe you have that reversed. As a lib I could care less what you do as long as you leave me alone.

Your statements do not back up this sentiment. You are nothing but an enemy of freedom.

[Abbey Marie]

So, in the name of personal freedom and privacy, we simply must allow even partial birth abortion, but smoking in your own apartment is to be forbidden.

Some things just make no sense.

http://arcadia.dk/images/01.jpg

[82Marine89]

Belmont is just down the road from my city. I like the law. It is why California is the leader in innovation. We do what others haven't the balls for.

How is that innovative? I see it more as an invasion of privacy.

[Immanuel]

How is that innovative? I see it more as an invasion of privacy.

It is only an invasion of privacy when conservatives inact similiar regulations such as any restrictions on partial birth abortion. When "progressives" do these kind of things then it is called progress. You really should get with the times. ;)

Immie

[Yurt]

Are these enclosed apt. buildings?

I for one have walked down an enclosed apt building in San Diego and the smoke from one unit easily gets into the hall way and therefore into your unit.

[5stringJeff]

Belmont is just down the road from my city. I like the law. It is why California is the leader in innovation. We do what others haven't the balls for.

In other words, you take away rights and meddle in people's lives the way no other state would dare to.

[April15]

In other words, you take away rights and meddle in people's lives the way no other state would dare to.By chance do you know how many states have helmet laws for motorcycle riders, or other anti stupid laws for bad behavior?
Big tobacco execs said there is no health risk to cigarettes. I guess you are with those guys!
By the way I have COPD from use of tobacco. My children have breathing problems from my use of tobacco. Maybe it is time to say stop you fools. I would be one of the fools they are trying to stop. My children would be healthier if this passed 40 years ago.

[MtnBiker]

I would be one of the fools they are trying to stop. My children would be healthier if this passed 40 years ago.


Translation - I can't make a decision for myself I would rather the government do it for me.

[April15]

Translation - I can't make a decision for myself I would rather the government do it for me.Call it what you will it doesn't change the facts of secondhand smoke.

[MtnBiker]

Call it what you will it doesn't change the facts of secondhand smoke.

I didn't mention anything about secondhand smoke. It is possible to have a home free of second hand smoke without government intervention.

[red states rule]

By chance do you know how many states have helmet laws for motorcycle riders, or other anti stupid laws for bad behavior?
Big tobacco execs said there is no health risk to cigarettes. I guess you are with those guys!
By the way I have COPD from use of tobacco. My children have breathing problems from my use of tobacco. Maybe it is time to say stop you fools. I would be one of the fools they are trying to stop. My children would be healthier if this passed 40 years ago.

Will you be this submisive to government when the Food Police conduct inspections of your pantry to make sure you are not eating the wrong type of food?

[5stringJeff]

By chance do you know how many states have helmet laws for motorcycle riders, or other anti stupid laws for bad behavior?
Big tobacco execs said there is no health risk to cigarettes. I guess you are with those guys!
By the way I have COPD from use of tobacco. My children have breathing problems from my use of tobacco. Maybe it is time to say stop you fools. I would be one of the fools they are trying to stop. My children would be healthier if this passed 40 years ago.


Translation - I can't make a decision for myself I would rather the government do it for me.

April, I'm sorry for what you've gone through, but MtnBiker is right. It's not the government's job to make sure you don't hurt yourself by using tobacco.

[retiredman]

Is it the government's place to ensure that you don't hurt others with your tobacco use?

how about alcohol use?

[Dilloduck]

smoking exhaust pipes are killing us----ban cars from public roads

[retiredman]

exhaust pipes in the outdoors are different than tobacco smoke in a confined space...

but the rhetoric was vintage dillo! good job!:clap:

[Dilloduck]

exhaust pipes in the outdoors are different than tobacco smoke in a confined space...

but the rhetoric was vintage dillo! good job!:clap:

you mean pollution created outside is ok?

[retiredman]

what an idiotic question. I never said that at all.

[Dilloduck]

what an idiotic question. I never said that at all.

try this----how much air pollution in your city is caused by carbon exhaust compared to how much is created by smoking tobacco ?

[manu1959]

bet you could smoke weed and not get busted....

[manu1959]

exhaust pipes in the outdoors are different than tobacco smoke in a confined space...

but the rhetoric was vintage dillo! good job!:clap:

so auto exhaust and polution can't blow in the winda?

[red states rule]

Is it the government's place to ensure that you don't hurt others with your tobacco use?

how about alcohol use?

Democrats want to be the "Mommy and Daddy' party to the masses

[retiredman]

Democrats want to be the "Mommy and Daddy' party to the masses


that is not so. do you think you could actually try to answer the question instead of just tossing out canned one liners?

[retiredman]

try this----how much air pollution in your city is caused by carbon exhaust compared to how much is created by smoking tobacco ?

try this: should you have the right to rent an apartment free from tobacco smoke? Does government have a place in protecting citizens from carcinogens? Does government have a place in protecting citizens from other citizens who are practicing risky behaviors?

I would suggest that the government would have every right to pass ordinances making it illegal to operate internal combustion engines inside jointly occupied apartment buildings. would you agree?

[red states rule]

that is not so. do you think you could actually try to answer the question instead of just tossing out canned one liners?

They do want to be the Mommy and Daddy Party. Also Nanny State fits well

Dems want to expand their cradle to grave entitlements and make as mamny people as possble dependent on government - and them

[retiredman]

so auto exhaust and polution can't blow in the winda?

but if you close the windows to your house, they don't blow inside.

If, on the other hand, you live in an apartment building and the neigbor next door smokes like a chimney and leaves his door open, you ARE going to get tobacco smoke inside your personal residence even though you do not want it there.

[retiredman]

They do want to be the Mommy and Daddy Party. Also Nanny State fits well

Dems want to expand their cradle to grave entitlements and make as mamny people as possble dependent on government - and them

more one liners. try answering the question or just admit that you are incapable of doing so.:laugh2:

[red states rule]

but if you close the windows to your house, they don't blow inside.

If, on the other hand, you live in an apartment building and the neigbor next door smokes like a chimney and leaves his door open, you ARE going to get tobacco smoke inside your personal residence even though you do not want it there.

So the only answer is to have the Dems pass another law restricting freedoms? Libs have made smokers the more hated group of people in this country

[retiredman]

So the only answer is to have the Dems pass another law restricting freedoms? Libs have made smokers the more hated group of people in this country

do you think that you ought to have the freedom to smoke in a confined space that you share with other people who have paid money to stay there?

[red states rule]

do you think that you ought to have the freedom to smoke in a confined space that you share with other people who have paid money to stay there?

To me it is, and should be, an individual courtsey issue. I paid to be there as well. Libs never pass up a chance to pass more laws and increase the power of the government

[retiredman]

To me it is, and should be, an individual courtsey issue. I paid to be there as well. Libs never pass up a chance to pass more laws and increase the power of the government

an individual courtesy issue? so if you rent an apartment and a new neighbor moves in and begines to fill the air with cigar smoke from morning until night - you think that it is a courtesy issue? what if your new neighbor isn't courteous? You should be forced to move or breathe carcinogens while waiting for your neighbor to be courteous?
and if it applies to apartment buildings, why not office buildings? why not schools? why shouldn't teachers be able to smoke in class? if they don't...all it is is a courtesy issue?????

[red states rule]

an individual courtesy issue? so if you rent an apartment and a new neighbor moves in and begines to fill the air with cigar smoke from morning until night - you think that it is a courtesy issue? what if your new neighbor isn't courteous? You should be forced to move or breathe carcinogens while waiting for your neighbor to be courteous?
and if it applies to apartment buildings, why not office buildings? why not schools? why shouldn't teachers be able to smoke in class? if they don't...all it is is a courtesy issue?????

Gee, this might come as a shock to you - but why not try MOVING. I know a straight forward logical solution would never occur to a big government lioberal like you MM

What the hell business is this of the government?

[retiredman]

Gee, this might come as a shock to you - but why not try MOVING. I know a straight forward logical solution would never occur to a big government lioberal like you MM

What the hell business is this of the government?

so a tenant who lives in an apartment for decades should be forced to move because her neighbor smokes cigars all day and pollutes the air in her apartment?

is smoking in school any business of government? is smoking in office buildings any business of government? what about smoking in movie theaters? doctor's offices? hospitals?

[red states rule]

so a tenant who lives in an apartment for decades should be forced to move because her neighbor smokes cigars all day and pollutes the air in her apartment?

is smoking in school any business of government? is smoking in office buildings any business of government? what about smoking in movie theaters? doctor's offices? hospitals?

I remember very well when libs first banned smoking in elevators. They said they would never expand the law

Same with seat belt laws. They promised how cops would not be able to stop a driver for that violation alone

Liberals make a law and then slowly exapnd it and gtrow. Much like how a spiders builds a web. It continues to grow outward and get bigger

And libs whine how Pres Bush is taking away their rights

This is not a government problem - yet libs want to make it one

[retiredman]

I remember very well when libs first banned smoking in elevators. They said they would never expand the law

Same with seat belt laws. They promised how cops would not be able to stop a driver for that violation alone

Liberals make a law and then slowly exapnd it and gtrow. Much like how a spiders builds a web. It continues to grow outward and get bigger

And libs whine how Pres Bush is taking away their rights

This is not a government problem - yet libs want to make it one

true to form, you didn't answer any of my questions.:laugh2:

[red states rule]

true to form, you didn't answer any of my questions.:laugh2:

Sure I did - your to liberal to understand it

Libs are never happy unless they are controlling the lives of the masses. The more laws and power they have the happier they are

We pay the price - in more ways then one

[retiredman]

Is it intrusive of liberals to want to keep smoking out of office spaces?

Is it intrusuive of liberals to want to keep smoking out of classrooms? hospitals? movie theaters?

[Immanuel]

Is it intrusive of liberals to want to keep smoking out of office spaces?

Is it intrusuive of liberals to want to keep smoking out of classrooms? hospitals? movie theaters?

Yes.

It is intrusive regardless of whether or not it is correct, or more accurately Politically Correct. As you know, I don't smoke, but that does not mean I support taking their rights away.

Heck, I was convinced on another site that the War on Drugs was a total waste of time, effort and money and that maybe for the betterment of society we should legalize and regulated it. Making smoking, illegal is not going to stop it, just add millions of more criminals to the prison roles which will cost more money, add to crime and generally make life in America worse.

And it worries me, once the political correctness police make smoking illegal, what will be next? Driving while holding a cell phone? Hmmm! maybe there is a use for such laws? Get those morons off the road who drive 30 miles an hour below the speed limit in the fast lane because they are talking on the cell phone. You want to talk about saving lives, that is the way to do it.

Immie

[darin]

If this was REALLY about 'health' they'd forbid homosexual conduct, too.

[retiredman]

If this was REALLY about 'health' they'd forbid homosexual conduct, too.

and I suppose if my health were negatively impacted by the homosexual conduct of my neighbors in the next apartment, they might!:laugh2:

[Monkeybone]

and I suppose if my health were negatively impacted by the homosexual conduct of my neighbors in the next apartment, they might!:laugh2:

they could prevent you from sleeping?

[JackDaniels]

and I suppose if my health were negatively impacted by the homosexual conduct of my neighbors in the next apartment, they might!:laugh2:

:clap::laugh2::clap::laugh2:

I wish I could rep you for that...need to spread it around first :(

[darin]

they could prevent you from sleeping?

Or...or...they could molest somebody's kids...or...up your insurance premiums for the additional health-care they'll require over a lifetime...or...

The thing is - with ALL this 'nanny' legislation being passed under the guise of "For Health or Safety" - nobody seems to want to draw the line. When is unhealthy behaviour so bad it's to be outlawed? Frankly, I think very few things/activities which only hurt one's own health, or the health of a willing partner/group should be prohibited.

[red states rule]

Or...or...they could molest somebody's kids...or...up your insurance premiums for the additional health-care they'll require over a lifetime...or...

The thing is - with ALL this 'nanny' legislation being passed under the guise of "For Health or Safety" - nobody seems to want to draw the line. When is unhealthy behaviour so bad it's to be outlawed? Frankly, I think very few things/activities which only hurt one's own health, or the health of a willing partner/group should be prohibited.

Libs think the masses are to stupid to do the right thing - so they have to do it for them

[retiredman]

Or...or...they could molest somebody's kids...or...up your insurance premiums for the additional health-care they'll require over a lifetime...or...

The thing is - with ALL this 'nanny' legislation being passed under the guise of "For Health or Safety" - nobody seems to want to draw the line. When is unhealthy behaviour so bad it's to be outlawed? Frankly, I think very few things/activities which only hurt one's own health, or the health of a willing partner/group should be prohibited.

Oh...I see...child molesters are homosexual? nice bigoted ignorant response. Why I am not surprised?

And I know this may be hard for you to wrap your little pea brain around, but the fact that some people might draw the line at a different spot than you does not mean that "nobody seems to want to draw the line.".

Are you willing to draw any line anywhere?

[Trinity]

Some people (like MM) love to bitch and whine. They are not happy unless they are

What is next? Your neighbor is a vegetarian and he/she can call the cops when you grill steaks in the back yard, because the smoke and smell bothers them?


:laugh2:

[April15]

I remember very well when libs first banned smoking in elevators. They said they would never expand the law

Same with seat belt laws. They promised how cops would not be able to stop a driver for that violation alone

Liberals make a law and then slowly exapnd it and gtrow. Much like how a spiders builds a web. It continues to grow outward and get bigger

And libs whine how Pres Bush is taking away their rights

This is not a government problem - yet libs want to make it one

The conservatives are the ones who made it a citable offense to drive without a seat belt. Something about it cost to much to pay for those without insurance when they get flung from a crashed car.

[April15]

Libs think the masses are to stupid to do the right thing - so they have to do it for themOnly the conservatives are too stupid the libs are already in the know.

[actsnoblemartin]

do we have any evidence one way or another on this?


Oh...I see...child molesters are homosexual? nice bigoted ignorant response. Why I am not surprised?

And I know this may be hard for you to wrap your little pea brain around, but the fact that some people might draw the line at a different spot than you does not mean that "nobody seems to want to draw the line.".

Are you willing to draw any line anywhere?

[retiredman]

do we have any evidence one way or another on this?

"evidence" of what? your question makes no sense.

[SpidermanTUba]

Belmont is just down the road from my city. I like the law. It is why California is the leader in innovation. We do what others haven't the balls for.

Californians have some stupid smoking laws. It makes sense to outlaw it in restaurants and hospitals and public buildings - but bars? Come on, that's ridiculous. Why don't we ban drinking in bars? You know drinking causes drunk driving accidents.

Here's my favorite - outlawing smoking on the beaches, because of all the butts that end up on the beach. Here's my solution for that problem - make littering illegal!

[Abbey Marie]

.
...
Here's my favorite - outlawing smoking on the beaches, because of all the butts that end up on the beach. Here's my solution for that problem - make littering illegal!

There are more butts on nude beaches. :laugh2:

[Trigg]

If landlords are worried about being able to rent out an appartment that has had a smoker why not have smoking and non-smoking appartments available. Hotels still do this and it makes sense.

Banning someone for smoking in their condo (which is owned by the person) or appartment is an invasion of a persons rights IMO. Smoking, while a vile habit, is LEGAL.

I find it surprising that Californians are so willing to give up their rights, no wonder they've got so many problems out there.

[MtnBiker]

The conservatives are the ones who made it a citable offense to drive without a seat belt. Something about it cost to much to pay for those without insurance when they get flung from a crashed car.

The conservatives where? Auto and traffic laws are not federal they are at the state level.

[red states rule]

"evidence" of what? your question makes no sense.

like your posts?????

[red states rule]

If landlords are worried about being able to rent out an appartment that has had a smoker why not have smoking and non-smoking appartments available. Hotels still do this and it makes sense.

Banning someone for smoking in their condo (which is owned by the person) or appartment is an invasion of a persons rights IMO. Smoking, while a vile habit, is LEGAL.

I find it surprising that Californians are so willing to give up their rights, no wonder they've got so many problems out there.

The left have made smokers the most hated group of people on Earth. So if THEIR raights are violated, they do not care

[retiredman]

The left have made smokers the most hated group of people on Earth. So if THEIR raights are violated, they do not care

more over the top flatulent rhetoric from the king of flatulence.

most hated group on the planet? really? LOL

[red states rule]

more over the top flatulent rhetoric from the king of flatulence.

most hated group on the planet? really? LOL

Smokers are the most hated group - they are treated like lepers

[Immanuel]

Smokers are the most hated group - they are treated like lepers

Maybe the most hated group in America, but I would venture to say there are two that are more hated: Politicians and Al Qaeda and I am probably just projecting my own feelings on Politicians. And smokers v. Al Qaeda is a close race.

Immie

[red states rule]

Maybe the most hated group in America, but I would venture to say there are two that are more hated: Politicians and Al Qaeda and I am probably just projecting my own feelings on Politicians. And smokers v. Al Qaeda is a close race.

Immie

Good point

Moonbat liberals are helping Al Qaeda while attacking the smokers

It seems the kook left is more interested in fighting the war on smoking then the war on terror

[Immanuel]

Good point

Moonbat liberals are helping Al Qaeda while attacking the smokers

It seems the kook left is more interested in fighting the war on smoking then the war on terror

Haha,

But that was not the point I was trying to make. I pray Americans, liberal and conservative alike, are still capable of focusing on more than one issue at a time. I'm not certain that is the case, but I still pray it is.

Immie

[red states rule]

Haha,

But that was not the point I was trying to make. I pray Americans, liberal and conservative alike, are still capable of focusing on more than one issue at a time. I'm not certain that is the case, but I still pray it is.

Immie

but it does sum up the lefts priorities

[Immanuel]

but it does sum up the lefts priorities

Careful, the same kind of things could be said about conservatives ie "Neocons only care about prosecuting Bush's War on Iraq while ignoring important issues at home such as Health Insurance for starving children." It definitely goes both ways here.

Immie

[red states rule]

Careful, the same kind of things could be said about conservatives ie "Neocons only care about prosecuting Bush's War on Iraq while ignoring important issues at home such as Health Insurance for starving children." It definitely goes both ways here.

Immie

Well, seeing how the Dems base is reacting, they feel the Dems are not liberal enough

[retiredman]

Well, seeing how the Dems base is reacting, they feel the Dems are not liberal enough

this post shows that you really are totally clueless as to who the democrat's "BASE" really is.:lame2:

[red states rule]

this post shows that you really are totally clueless as to who the democrat's "BASE" really is.:lame2:

Moveon.org, Daily Kos, Huffingtion Post, and Democrat Underground is your base MM

[retiredman]

Moveon.org, Daily Kos, Huffingtion Post, and Democrat Underground is your base MM

no.. they are not. Like I said before...for you to be telling me who the base of my party is is ridiculous. The base of my party are teachers and laborers and lawyers and unions. You are nothing but a gadfly who does not know what he is talking about... a lot of heat... no light.

[red states rule]

no.. they are not. Like I said before...for you to be telling me who the base of my party is is ridiculous. The base of my party are teachers and laborers and lawyers and unions. You are nothing but a gadfly who does not know what he is talking about... a lot of heat... no light.

Try again

I will admit the union thugs are part of your base, but not all union workers vote Democrat

[REDWHITEBLUE2]

Belmont is just down the road from my city. I like the law. It is why California is the leader in innovation. We do what others haven't the balls for. WE know thats why you have so many QUEERS In your GAY STATE The rest of America DON'T want them GAY SICKO BASTARDS