Ukraine war: The Russian ships accused of North Sea sabotage

[Gunny]

Amazing. Russia is at war with the West and the West is sitting on its hands. The US most of all.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65309687

[revelarts]

Gunny,
Question for ya.
Who do you think blew up the northstream pipeline?

[Gunny]

Gunny,
Question for ya.
Who do you think blew up the northstream pipeline?I don't know, nor do I pretend to.

[revelarts]

Here's what President Biden said.

President Biden:
"If Russia invades ...Ukraine...
then there will be NO LONGER a NorthStream2.
WE will bring and END to it."

Reporter:
But how will you do that... exactly...?

President Biden:
"I Promise you we will be able to do that."


http://www.youtube.com/shorts/FVbEoZXhCrM (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FVbEoZXhCrM)


Act of War?
Russia sit on their hands?
Germany sit on their hands?

[Gunny]

Here's what President Biden said.

President Biden:
"If Russia invades ...Ukraine...
then there will be NO LONGER a NorthStream2.
WE will bring and END to it."

Reporter:
But how will you do that... exactly...?

President Biden:
"I Promise you we will be able to do that."


http://www.youtube.com/shorts/FVbEoZXhCrM (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FVbEoZXhCrM)


Act of War?
Russia sit on their hands?
Germany sit on their hands?

That says nothing. The US is infamous for using bullying politics to get its way. Biden and Trump especially have been rather infamous for talking stupid shit and making threats by innuendo. Everything Trump says is prefaced by "really, REALLY ...." Obviously, its destruction would not really benefit Russia but would benefit the goals of Ukraine and other Eastern European nations.

Russia had already invaded Ukraine when the pipeline was sabotaged. As an act of war, I wouldn't blame Ukraine one bit for doing it. Guess you'd have to be able to at least imagine fighting for your very existence to get it.

[revelarts]

That says nothing. The USis infamous for using bullying politics to get its way. Biden and Trump especially have been rather infamous for talking stupid shit and making threats by innuendo. Everything Trump says is prefaced by "really, REALLY ...." Obviously, its destruction would not really benefit Russia but would benefit the goals of Ukraine and other Eastern European nations.

Russia had already invaded Ukraine when the pipeline was sabotaged. As an act of war, I wouldn't blame Ukraine one bit for doing it. Guess you'd have to be able to at least imagine fighting for your very existence to get it.

Gunny 'cmon man.

If the president of the U.S. says
"We will End it"
and it happens it doesn't help to to pretend anyone else did it.


Add to that that it just wasn't Biden. Other officials and neo-cons have talked about getting rid of that pipeline for a longtime.
(for freedom!)

Dept of state spokesmen Ned Price said "Nord Stream 2 will not move forward"
Dept of State Under Secretary Vitoria Nuland said "One way or another Nord Stream 2 will not move forward
Mike Pompeo said "the U.S. will do everything to stop the Nord Stream 2 project."
Tom Cotton Repuplican Congressmen "If the president wishes to take the reins of international leadership, this is his opportunity. Kill Nord Stream 2 now, and let it rust beneath the waves of the Baltic."
MArcy Kaptur Congresswoman "put an end to it"
Adam Kinzinger Congressmen "end it once and for all"
Ted Cruz "Use all the tools available"
Marsha Blackburn Congresswoman "stop nord strem 2"
Former U.S. Ukrainian ambassador "taking out Nord Stream 2 to forever"

Jake Sullivan U.S. National security advisor"we have made it clear to the Russians that that pipeline is at risk if they move further into Ukraine

http://1000words.fatcow.com/box8/Screen%20Shot%202023-04-22%20at%208.50.39%20AM.png

President Biden
“When it come to Nord Stream 2, a pipeline that will bring natural gas to Germany , It will not happen”

[Gunny]

Gunny 'cmon man.

If the president of the U.S. says
"We will End it"
and it happens it doesn't help to to pretend anyone else did it.


Add to that that it just wasn't Biden. Other officials and neo-cons have talked about getting rid of that pipeline for a longtime.
(for freedom!)

Dept of state spokesmen Ned Price said "Nord Stream 2 will not move forward"
Dept of State Under Secretary Vitoria Nuland said "One way or another Nord Stream 2 will not move forward
Mike Pompeo said "the U.S. will do everything to stop the Nord Stream 2 project."
Tom Cotton Repuplican Congressmen "If the president wishes to take the reins of international leadership, this is his opportunity. Kill Nord Stream 2 now, and let it rust beneath the waves of the Baltic."
MArcy Kaptur Congresswoman "put an end to it"
Adam Kinzinger Congressmen "end it once and for all"
Ted Cruz "Use all the tools available"
Marsha Blackburn Congresswoman "stop nord strem 2"
Former U.S. Ukrainian ambassador "taking out Nord Stream 2 to forever"

Jake Sullivan U.S. National security advisor"we have made it clear to the Russians that that pipeline is at risk if they move further into Ukraine

http://1000words.fatcow.com/box8/Screen%20Shot%202023-04-22%20at%208.50.39%20AM.png

President Biden
“When it come to Nord Stream 2, a pipeline that will bring natural gas to Germany , It will not happen”Nothing you posted is evidence of anything except a lot of politicians were against it. As a stand alone, the pipeline was stupid and Russia's invasion of Ukraine proved just how stupid it was for all those European countries to make themselves dependent on Russian oil. The only thing dumber would be making one's self dependent on US oil with our revolving door foreign affairs policies.

I wouldn't be surprised that any former Soviet slave nation did it. May not be to their energy benefit, but it is their security.

And how about Germany? The ardent, pro-pipeline fans? Blowing up the pipeline ends a heated political position and discussion for Germany and makes the decision for a bunch of weak-kneed limp wrist politicians.

[revelarts]

Amazing. Russia is at war with the West and the West is sitting on its hands. The US most of all.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65309687

So a bunch of U.S. politicians , including the C&C SAID they would/will END the Nord Stream Pipeline ("trust me") (and it does get blown up) but you don't believe them.
That's just talk.

But you believe Russia, who never said they'd "sabotage wind farms and communication cables in the North Sea", DID DO that... "according to new allegations."
And the U.S. is sitting on it's hands by not retaliating?

Just so i understanding you here.

[Gunny]

So a bunch of U.S. politicians , including the C&C SAID they would/will END the Nord Stream Pipeline ("trust me") (and it does get blown up) but you don't believe them.
That's just talk.

But you believe Russia, who never said they'd "sabotage wind farms and communication cables in the North Sea", DID DO that... "according to new allegations."
And the U.S. is sitting on it's hands by not retaliating?

Just so i understanding you here.I still see no evidence beyond your assumption that the US had anything more to do with it than spewing political rhetoric.

What you don't understand is that I don't default assume the US guilty at every turn.

Again, there is no evidence to accuse any specific party or it would have been done. Guessing with no supporting evidence as you are? I would guess that any country in Eastern Europe that rightfully fears Russian aggression could have done it. Finland, Sweden, Latvia, Estonia, Poland -- all share borders with Russia.

Germany, on the other hand, is as wishy washy as the US. As a tactical and strategic action, it makes perfect sense to remove an option for some weak link to flip flop as soon as it gets cold. So long as the pipeline exists and is operational, it is a threat to the unity of NATO.

They already have a couple Eastern European countries (Hungary is one) refusing to embargo Russian oil and gas. I'd blow their shit up too.

As it stands, it's rather irrelevant at this point what with Biden talking all his shit to Saudi Arabia and India believing its above it all, as usual. They're buying Russian oil and reselling it in Europe.

This is a stupid war. Not for the reasons you believe. For the simple fact that all involved think they can conduct a war without inconveniencing themselves. Only Ukraine and a few of the aforementioned Eastern European border countries are in this for real. It's a f-ing video game to the rest of these jerk offs.

[revelarts]

"Security Council Rejects Draft Resolution Establishing Commission to Investigate Sabotage of Nord Stream Pipeline"

the headline could more honestly read,
the US, UK and their toady nations of the west voted against Investigating the Sabotage of Nord Stream Pipeline.
Only Russian and China voted for an investigation.

Why wouldn't the US & UK want an investigation into this criminal terrorist act of sabotagee in sovereign waters against NATO allies?
What possible reason might there be?

claims of ,"Most of the Security Council members who abstained on Monday said they did so because the national investigations should be allowed to conclude before considering whether any action at the United Nations was needed."
Sounds kinda thin to me when the UN is always sending in investigators everywhere else in the world.
You know like the investigation that showed that Syria did NOT use gas on it's own people... after the investigators full reports and confessions were allowed to surface that is.

https://apnews.com/article/politics-united-nations-germany-sweden-denmark-eaddc9fbc0b1a60c74f9d18dc5561626
https://theintercept.com/2023/03/25/nord-stream-russia-investigation-seymour-hersh/
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-fails-un-get-nord-stream-blast-inquiry-2023-03-27/




(Kinda Like the US Govt still refuses to release the JFK assassination information 60+ years after -cough-someone-cough- assassinated our own President.
...And had to be forced to investigate the attacks of 9/11 and then limited it, kept certain testimony secret, no one was fired & NYers were told 'the air is safe to breath'.)

[Gunny]

"Security Council Rejects Draft Resolution Establishing Commission to Investigate Sabotage of Nord Stream Pipeline"

the headline could more honestly read,
the US, UK and their toady nations of the west voted against Investigating the Sabotage of Nord Stream Pipeline.
Only Russian and China voted for an investigation.

Why wouldn't the US & UK want an investigation into this criminal terrorist act of sabotagee in sovereign waters against NATO allies?
What possible reason might there be?

claims of ,"Most of the Security Council members who abstained on Monday said they did so because the national investigations should be allowed to conclude before considering whether any action at the United Nations was needed."
Sounds kinda thin to me when the UN is always sending in investigators everywhere else in the world.
You know like the investigation that showed that Syria did NOT use gas on it's own people... after the investigators full reports and confessions were allowed to surface that is.

https://apnews.com/article/politics-united-nations-germany-sweden-denmark-eaddc9fbc0b1a60c74f9d18dc5561626
https://theintercept.com/2023/03/25/nord-stream-russia-investigation-seymour-hersh/
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-fails-un-get-nord-stream-blast-inquiry-2023-03-27/




(Kinda Like the US Govt still refuses to release the JFK assassination information 60+ years after -cough-someone-cough- assassinated our own President.
...And had to be forced to investigate the attacks of 9/11 and then limited it, kept certain testimony secret, no one was fired & NYers were told 'the air is safe to breath'.)I'm missing something here. What point are you trying to make?

One, using the UN as some sort of justification is desperation indeed. They UN is a bunch of do-nothing "diplomats" who couldn't agree to save themselves instead of political posturing. A UN investigation is about the one thing I think would be even more of a farce to accomplish nothing than a House investigation. The fact that Russia and China, our enemies, are for it says as much as anything else. Both are for naked aggression in grabbing territory from others and don't care who they have to kill to get what they want. Not sure I'd use any of the aforementioned as references in any argument regarding right and wrong.

Two, I have already stated it was perfectly sound strategic move on the part of Ukraine or anyone supporting Ukraine and opposing Russia. The last being noteworthy of mention since this whole support for Ukraine is as much or more about opposing Russia as it is helping anyone. From that POV, I don't care who did it and applaud whoever did.

The fact that we don't know who did ought to tell you the US didn't. The running joke for years that no one in the US can keep a secret has come to light lately as far more than any joke.

[revelarts]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GFxqlopbUAAf3G2?format=jpg&name=small

nothing to see here.. move along

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?76934-Nord-Stream-pipeline-leaks&p=1005396#post1005396

[Gunny]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GFxqlopbUAAf3G2?format=jpg&name=small

nothing to see here.. move along

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?76934-Nord-Stream-pipeline-leaks&p=1005396#post1005396

Still not getting what point you are trying to make. Ukraine is at war with Russia. It is in Ukraine's best interest the pipeline was destroyed the way Germany was initially vacillating on the Russian energy. Makes perfect sense. Ukraine needed Germany and whoever else off the fence.

Pales by comparison to Russia's unprovoked military invasion of another country and the war that has ensued.

Bad guys are running amok all over the World right now because nobody's stopping them.

[revelarts]

Still not getting what point you are trying to make. Ukraine is at war with Russia. It is in Ukraine's best interest the pipeline was destroyed the way Germany was initially vacillating on the Russian energy. Makes perfect sense. Ukraine needed Germany and whoever else off the fence.

Pales by comparison to Russia's unprovoked military invasion of another country and the war that has ensued.

Bad guys are running amok all over the World right now because nobody's stopping them.

So it's America's job to stop the all the "bad guys" running amok around the world?

no, is the right answer.

[Gunny]

So it's America's job to stop the all the "bad guys" running amok around the world?

no, is the right answer.Wrong answer. We took on the role of leadership. It's not all fine and dandy only when everything's going our way. You can't just dump allies where lives and entire Nations are stake, threatened by aggressors because succeeding, spoiled-ass generations can't fathom where we came from and what got is here.

THAT is EVERYTHING wrong with this country right now at most every level.

[Black Diamond]

Wrong answer. We took on the role of leadership. It's not all fine and dandy only when everything's going our way. You can't just dump allies where lives and entire Nations are stake, threatened by aggressors because succeeding, spoiled-ass generations can't fathom where we came from and what got is here.

THAT is EVERYTHING wrong with this country right now at most every level.

I think much of this current generation is more than happy to destroy themselves for a nation they know nothing about

[Gunny]

I think much of this current generation is more than happy to destroy themselves for a nation they know nothing aboutWhich nation are you referring to? The US or Ukraine? Most of this current generation doesn't impress me as knowing anything about their own states, much less the country.

Just my opinion, but most of this generation and the one before it sound to me like they would rather be ruled by a dictator than fight for anything.

[Black Diamond]

Which nation are you referring to? The US or Ukraine? Most of this current generation doesn't impress me as knowing anything about their own states, much less the country.

Just my opinion, but most of this generation and the one before it sound to me like they would rather be ruled by a dictator than fight for anything.

Americans 30 and under (and others) blindly paint themselves in Ukrainian flag colors and have virtue signaled the hell out of themselves just like they did with the vaccines, not knowing what the risks are.

Talking about generations, if you were to look at the greatest generation on December 6,
1941, I'm not sure you'd like them much.

[Gunny]

Americans 30 and under (and others) blindly paint themselves in Ukrainian flag colors and have virtue signaled the hell out of themselves just like they did with the vaccines, not knowing what the risks are.

Talking about generations, if you were to look at the greatest generation on December 6,
1941, I'm not sure you'd like them much.The "greatest generation" on December 6th were acting just like some Americans are now. None of our business what happens over there.

Russia already occupies 20% of Georgia, invading under the same pretext it has Ukraine. Assad/Syria is basically a Putin puppet and Russia is interfering in internal conflicts in Africa as well.

I prefer sending money and materiel for Ukrainians to fight Russia than NATO/US having to do it. If Putin is not stopped now, where he is, that will be what happens. Our "greatest generation" faced the same choices and had the same arguments and they chose unwisely.

Wonder how many bodies, and how much money and materiel that decision cost? Having to take back half of Europe, every island from Australia to Okinawa, Burma, China, North Africa ... When they can be stopped in place, where they are NOW, with a set of balls. We were woefully unprepared then even as now from sticking our collective head in the sand and sucking hind tit for half the war.

That doesn't even cover the "we're supposed to be the good guys that kick bullies' asses, remember?" part :)

[Black Diamond]

So it's America's job to stop the all the "bad guys" running amok around the world?

no, is the right answer.

We have to because Hitler...

[revelarts]

We have to because Hitler...
and 911

[Gunny]

We have to because Hitler...Oversimplification attempting to sarcastically dismiss reality. Did you not mention the "greatest generation"? America and others during the 30s? People who called themselves good men while they sat around and did nothing while evil flourished? Two entire continents and part of another subjugated to reigns of terror by madmen and the biggest excuse was: Well, it ain't us. Oh the disbelief turned to outrage when it finally was "us". The only thing that saved our asses caught with our pants around our ankles then were two big oceans that are not much of an obstacle nowadays.

We are spoiled and complacent, with the same mindset now. Hitler is an example, but he is not the history of Man. In the history of Man, the period of relative peace since WWII (no major World wars) is an anomaly, not the norm. Europe and Asia were constantly at war with a few (not 75) years between them. We wouldn't even have a country if not for Britain and France being at war and France bailing our asses out. Meaning, the World is and has been long overdue.

The West has sat around resting on its laurels much as it did after WWI, thinking we're great and brought everlasting peace to the World while envious bad guys have been at the drawing board. Even as we sat and watched Hitler rearm Germany and did nothing, so too are we just and watching Iran, Russia and China arm themselves to the teeth while we have an undermanned, undersupplied military without any real leadership at the top.

Add up all the players and hot spots in the World and anyone who does not think we are sitting in the eve of another World war is just fooling themselves. It's not just one or two similarities and/or red flags. It's red flags at every turn. This time around, they can reach US - CONUS - in seconds without stepping foot in it.

We aren't ready and it's going to hurt like nothing has hurt this country's complacent ass since Redcoats burned DC. And again, we are letting it happen.

[revelarts]

Oversimplification attempting to sarcastically dismiss reality. Did you not mention the "greatest generation"? America and others during the 30s? People who called themselves good men while they sat around and did nothing while evil flourished? Two entire continents and part of another subjugated to reigns of terror by madmen and the biggest excuse was: Well, it ain't us. Oh the disbelief turned to outrage when it finally was "us". The only thing that saved our asses caught with our pants around our ankles then were two big oceans that are not much of an obstacle nowadays.

We are spoiled and complacent, with the same mindset now. Hitler is an example, but he is not the history of Man. In the history of Man, the period of relative peace since WWII (no major World wars) is an anomaly, not the norm. Europe and Asia were constantly at war with a few (not 75) years between them. We wouldn't even have a country if not for Britain and France being at war and France bailing our asses out. Meaning, the World is and has been long overdue.

The West has sat around resting on its laurels much as it did after WWI, thinking we're great and brought everlasting peace to the World while envious bad guys have been at the drawing board. Even as we sat and watched Hitler rearm Germany and did nothing, so too are we just and watching Iran, Russia and China arm themselves to the teeth while we have an undermanned, undersupplied military without any real leadership at the top.

Add up all the players and hot spots in the World and anyone who does not think we are sitting in the eve of another World war is just fooling themselves. It's not just one or two similarities and/or red flags. It's red flags at every turn. This time around, they can reach US - CONUS - in seconds without stepping foot in it.

We aren't ready and it's going to hurt like nothing has hurt this country's complacent ass since Redcoats burned DC. And again, we are letting it happen.

"It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad."
James Madison


“Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear-kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor-with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it ...”
General Douglas MacArthur 1957


"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all."
George Washington


"Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war."
John Adams


"The defense policy of the United States is based on a simple premise: The United States does not start fights. We will never be an aggressor."
Ronald Reagan


"We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security."
Dwight D. Eisenhower


"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."
Dwight D. Eisenhower


"No protracted war can fail to endanger the freedom of a democratic country."
Alexis de Tocqueville


"Economically considered, war and revolution are always bad business."
Ludwig von Mises


"If we don’t stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, we’re going to have a serious problem coming down the road."
George W. Bush,
2000 before becoming president

then he took us to Iraq over lies and to Afghanistan where we stayed for 20 years and wasted military lives & treasure... again.
and SOMEHOW the worlds still NO SAFER?!
But some are saying we should do MORE of that? into Iran? Into Russia? Into China?
insane.

Maybe every problem is not a nail.

how about we make sure our boarders and our Defenses are Solid.
how about we have our allies do the same FOR THEMSELVES. are they impotent? if so why do we call them allies if they can't even defend themselves fro 5 minutes?
How About we Shorten Our Supply lines. Bring everything we can HOME. food, manufacturing, oil, etc..

We're TRILLIONS in debt and pretending like we're daddy Warbucks and can fly/ship troops & supplies around the world kicking arse BEFORE it starts... because We can devine it's coming.
When the reality is that the only time we can really devine trouble starting is if we start it like putting bio-weapons next to Russia and trying to get Ukraine into NATO after we said we never do it. Then act SHOCKED when Russia moves. and claim it's beginning of the end the INEVITABLE return of the USSR!!!
911 terrorist are about to take over the world via the Iran trying to bring in Kalifha... Adminiajad is just 2 years away from nuke, 2 months away 2 weeks away from having ONE nuclear weapon!!! and the Iranian people are chanting death to AMERICA... again.. like in 1976!!! but it worse now!!

Sorry I'm not buying the fear mongering of the neo-con, neo-lib, establishment, bankster, globalist scumbags that want the to MAKE MONEY off the dead Bodies of U.S. Military.
They want us to be afraid AGAIN, and to wave the flag like idiots while they suck the treasury dry securing resources & biz for Western corporations. And try to stay in more power than the Russian and Chinese oligarchs.

there's NO ONE who's attack the unted States and we do NOT need to attack anyone else. or stir the pot.

This long time of socalled UNNATURAL "PEACE" should be extending AS LOOOOONG as possible.
the people down the street from me here who are at the VA hospital from Vietnam to Afghanstan wars with missing limbs and such wouldn't call it peace but maybe relatively. ok.
Lets find ways to make it LAST.

But Im not buying these 1984 lines about "WAR is PEACE", "FREEDOM is SLAVERY". "we've always been at war with EurAsia" BS.

I wasn't wrong about Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Syria, or Libya and others. We should have NEVER sent troops to ANY of them.
We do not need to go to war with anyone today or tomorrow. Much less Iran, Russia or China. or their so-called proxies.