NATO delivers gut punch to Putin

[Gunny]

This is just so Turkey. "Who's winning and likely to win? We're on your side."

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4094064-nato-delivers-gut-punch-to-putin/

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

This is just so Turkey. "Who's winning and likely to win? We're on your side."

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4094064-nato-delivers-gut-punch-to-putin/

Looks to be an important shift and one that hurts Russia. --Tyr

[Gunny]

Looks to be an important shift and one that hurts Russia. --Tyr

Excellent point. What caused this sudden shift? If it's a shift at all. Turkey is a member of NATO. Erdogan has to get off the fence somewhere. As his predecessors before him, he's more than likely thinking solely in his own (Turkey's) interest. Don't we all?:rolleyes:

What does Turkey gain in the Warsaw Pact vs NATO? What does Turkey gain supporting Putin instead of half-ass honoring its commitment to NATO? In both cases, the bigger threat to Turkey itself was/is the Warsaw Pact/Russia.

I would say it doesn't affect Russia much so long as Russia doesn't breech this imaginary bullshit line these dumbass politicians have drawn in the air dividing NATO/Ukraine/Russia. If Putin was to do so, Turkey is not only on Russia's southern flank land-wise, but controls the Bosporous which controls everything entering or leaving between the Black and Mediterranean Seas.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Excellent point. What caused this sudden shift? If it's a shift at all. Turkey is a member of NATO. Erdogan has to get off the fence somewhere. As his predecessors before him, he's more than likely thinking solely in his own (Turkey's) interest. Don't we all?:rolleyes:

What does Turkey gain in the Warsaw Pact vs NATO? What does Turkey gain supporting Putin instead of half-ass honoring its commitment to NATO? In both cases, the bigger threat to Turkey itself was/is the Warsaw Pact/Russia.

I would say it doesn't affect Russia much so long as Russia doesn't breech this imaginary bullshit line these dumbass politicians have drawn in the air dividing NATO/Ukraine/Russia. If Putin was to do so, Turkey is not only on Russia's southern flank land-wise, but controls the Bosporous which controls everything entering or leaving between the Black and Mediterranean Seas.

What does turkey gain? First it gains having a free spending ally--USA. Russia certainly is not free-spending and demands much for what little it gives.
Second, we are stronger than Russia imho. Third, Turkey can play our political parties the dems and the Republicans against each other--it cannot do that as well against Russia since it is a one party system... Add to that that Russia is a far greater enemy of Turkey than USA is. So having us as a more friendly adversary makes good sense. --Tyr

[AHZ]

What does turkey gain? First it gains having a free spending ally--USA. Russia certainly is not free-spending and demands much for what little it gives.
Second, we are stronger than Russia imho. Third, Turkey can play our political parties the dems and the Republicans against each other--it cannot do that as well against Russia since it is a one party system... Add to that that Russia is a far greater enemy of Turkey than USA is. So having us as a more friendly adversary makes good sense. --Tyr


so we're gonna destroy russia now?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

so we're gonna destroy russia now?

We have been opposed to Russia since the end of WW2.
Actually, against the other two superpowers, Russia and China.
Why did ask, frame a question that way? It is common knowledge that we oppose both Russia and China... --Tyr

[AHZ]

We have been opposed to Russia since the end of WW2.
Actually, against the other two superpowers, Russia and China.
Why did ask, frame a question that way? It is common knowledge that we oppose both Russia and China... --Tyr


so why give china favored nation status in the 90s as we stupidly did?

should we keep sending china all our production jobs? is that smart?

[Gunny]

What does turkey gain? First it gains having a free spending ally--USA. Russia certainly is not free-spending and demands much for what little it gives.
Second, we are stronger than Russia imho. Third, Turkey can play our political parties the dems and the Republicans against each other--it cannot do that as well against Russia since it is a one party system... Add to that that Russia is a far greater enemy of Turkey than USA is. So having us as a more friendly adversary makes good sense. --Tyr

The advantaged of living in Turkey for a couple of years is having an idea about their mindset. You give them too much credit. Turks are impressed by who can kick whose ass. And yes, it's more about appearance than substance with them.

They don't care about our political parties unless one directly affects Turkey. They care about us meddling in the ME because we always leave a mess for them to deal with on their Southern border. We go in playing politics looking for hungry allies regardless the local, historical politics in the region.

We're a bunch of immature brats to these other countries that have been around for thousands of years and see countries come and go. If we don't get it together, they'll watch us go too. They'll still be there taking pot shots across the Aegean at the Greeks.

We are extremely lucky at the moment we have the technological advantage on these Old World folk. Man v man? I wouldn't bet my money on us.

[AHZ]

The advantaged of living in Turkey for a couple of years is having an idea about their mindset. You give them too much credit. Turks are impressed by who can kick whose ass. And yes, it's more about appearance than substance with them.

They don't care about our political parties unless one directly affects Turkey. They care about us meddling in the ME because we always leave a mess for them to deal with on their Southern border. We go in playing politics looking for hungry allies regardless the local, historical politics in the region.

We're a bunch of immature brats to these other countries that have been around for thousands of years and see countries come and go. If we don't get it together, they'll watch us go too. They'll still be there taking pot shots across the Aegean at the Greeks.

We are extremely lucky at the moment we have the technological advantage on these Old World folk. Man v man? I wouldn't bet my money on us.


of course war is primarily through economics now.

and your globalist zealotry is a one way money suck of cash and resources out of our nation.

even technology won't save us when the controllers of the financial system are betraying us.

true story.

[Gunny]

of course war is primarily through economics now.

and your globalist zealotry is a one way money suck of cash and resources out of our nation.

even technology won't save us when the controllers of the financial system are betraying us.

true story.War is and always has been about economics. It is currently about global economics because economics are currently global. WE -- the USofA -- made it that way. WE made the World a stage. And so it is. Unless you want to fight a REAL WW III learn to deal with what's in your hand, not your imagination.

If the US pulled out of the World economy, the World's economy would collapse and so would ours. That's not globalism, Einstein. It's reality and has been since long before any of us were born.

[Black Diamond]

War is and always has been about economics. It is currently about global economics because economics are currently global. WE -- the USofA -- made it that way. WE made the World a stage. And so it is. Unless you want to fight a REAL WW III learn to deal with what's in your hand, not your imagination.

If the US pulled out of the World economy, the World's economy would collapse and so would ours. That's not globalism, Einstein. It's reality and has been since long before any of us were born.

Globalism is reality. Imo. Forget about trump for a minute. How long before we surrender our sovereignty to a globalist organization. Eventually we may not have a choice.

[Black Diamond]

Excellent point. What caused this sudden shift? If it's a shift at all. Turkey is a member of NATO. Erdogan has to get off the fence somewhere. As his predecessors before him, he's more than likely thinking solely in his own (Turkey's) interest. Don't we all?:rolleyes:

What does Turkey gain in the Warsaw Pact vs NATO? What does Turkey gain supporting Putin instead of half-ass honoring its commitment to NATO? In both cases, the bigger threat to Turkey itself was/is the Warsaw Pact/Russia.

I would say it doesn't affect Russia much so long as Russia doesn't breech this imaginary bullshit line these dumbass politicians have drawn in the air dividing NATO/Ukraine/Russia. If Putin was to do so, Turkey is not only on Russia's southern flank land-wise, but controls the Bosporous which controls everything entering or leaving between the Black and Mediterranean Seas.

Dardanelles too ?

I don't think anyone imagined things going this way for putin. It's one thing after another after another

[Gunny]

Globalism is reality. Imo. Forget about trump for a minute. How long before we surrender our sovereignty to a globalist organization. Eventually we may not have a choice.

I recall stating once long ago that the only difference between us and Europe is age. We are its descendants. What did Europe do? Unionize. There have been hints of both Biden and Obama handing over bits of our sovereignty. Joining all these bureaucratic, World this and that organizations.

The idiots that make these decisions don't have to live in the real world at street level and will never suffer the consequences of their "me too" actions. Insofar as this topic goes, Trump was guilty only of pulling the plug on Obama's international ass-kissing. While he could have been a tad more diplomatic about it, I didn't/don't have a gripe with that at all.

BTW, we are already members of NAFTA.

Unless the people regain control of government; which, usually doesn't happen, we're going the way it drags us. The only hope we have is that these egomaniacs in DC don't want to give up having the final say. Probably the only thing saving us now.

[fj1200]

Globalism is reality. Imo. Forget about trump for a minute. How long before we surrender our sovereignty to a globalist organization. Eventually we may not have a choice.

No chance. Free trade is reality, the US should lead.


BTW, we are already members of NAFTA.

NAFTA is nothing in this context.

[AHZ]

War is and always has been about economics. It is currently about global economics because economics are currently global. WE -- the USofA -- made it that way. WE made the World a stage. And so it is. Unless you want to fight a REAL WW III learn to deal with what's in your hand, not your imagination.

If the US pulled out of the World economy, the World's economy would collapse and so would ours. That's not globalism, Einstein. It's reality and has been since long before any of us were born.


and convincing the dum dums to abandon their own ability to produce is a victory for whoever can convince their enemies that is smart.

is globalism smart?

[AHZ]

I recall stating once long ago that the only difference between us and Europe is age. We are its descendants. What did Europe do? Unionize. There have been hints of both Biden and Obama handing over bits of our sovereignty. Joining all these bureaucratic, World this and that organizations.

The idiots that make these decisions don't have to live in the real world at street level and will never suffer the consequences of their "me too" actions. Insofar as this topic goes, Trump was guilty only of pulling the plug on Obama's international ass-kissing. While he could have been a tad more diplomatic about it, I didn't/don't have a gripe with that at all.

BTW, we are already members of NAFTA.

Unless the people regain control of government; which, usually doesn't happen, we're going the way it drags us. The only hope we have is that these egomaniacs in DC don't want to give up having the final say. Probably the only thing saving us now.

yes.

maybe they will realize their jobs depend on "the archaic notion of a nation state". maybe the greed of globalist idiots will save us all.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Globalism is reality. Imo. Forget about trump for a minute. How long before we surrender our sovereignty to a globalist organization. Eventually we may not have a choice.

Well said my friend. More than likely we will end up surrendering away our freedoms/rights.
Tragic but reality is often tragic, is it not.. --Tyr

[AHZ]

Globalism is reality. Imo. Forget about trump for a minute. How long before we surrender our sovereignty to a globalist organization. Eventually we may not have a choice.
so are tariffs, and reasonable trade restrictions which make globalism less dumb..


there's always a choice.

nothing is inevitable.

your talk is loser talk.

[Gunny]

No chance. Free trade is reality, the US should lead.



NAFTA is nothing in this context.Nit-picking? :slap: Technically, a global treaty with foreign nations.

[Gunny]

and convincing the dum dums to abandon their own ability to produce is a victory for whoever can convince their enemies that is smart.

is globalism smart?

Different topic. If I owned a corporation in the US and was footing the bill for all the government's handouts, I'd want out too. Our government has dismantled our industry, not the people trying to make a living despite it.

But you go right ahead and explain to the leftards that those unions they support aren't providing jobs nor are they themselves going hungry because the government supports them, while putting them out of business. See if you have any better luck than I have the past 40 years.

[Gunny]

so are tariffs, and reasonable trade restrictions which make globalism less dumb..


there's always a choice.

nothing is inevitable.

your talk is loser talk.There IS some point to this insult, right?:rolleyes:

You really need to learn some manners, boy.

[AHZ]

There IS some point to this insult, right?:rolleyes:

You really need to learn some manners, boy.



The idea that globalism stupidity is "inevitable" is defeated loser talk.

[fj1200]

Nit-picking? :slap: Technically, a global treaty with foreign nations.

That's what it is. It's not a sign of the coming apocalypse.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That's what it is. It's not a sign of the coming apocalypse.
Many think apocalypse coming may be by agreement after we--the USA-- is removed from the equation.
Who knows?
I think it is coming nearer but I have no clue how it comes.
And I am not guessing now. But it will come when its people decide to pull that trigger.
And from how things are lining it up---it may-- be sooner rather than much later. ----Tyr

[Gunny]

The idea that globalism stupidity is "inevitable" is defeated loser talk.A loser is always contrasted by a winner. You can't insult that away.

[Gunny]

That's what it is. It's not a sign of the coming apocalypse.Damn. Then I can take the helmet off now?:tinfoil:

[RoccoR]

RE: NATO delivers gut punch to Putin (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?78174-NATO-delivers-gut-punch-to-Putin)
SUBTOPIC: North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) (https://www.trade.gov/north-american-free-trade-agreement-nafta)
⁜→ Gunny, et al,


Nit-picking? :slap: Technically, a global treaty with foreign nations.
(COMMENT)

It is not a "global treaty." It is not a Covenant on International Economics and Trade. It is a simple agreement between the US, Canada, and Mexico pertaining to tariffs and export quotas. It's been around for more than a quarter century.

This is not all that dissimilar to the "Most Favored Nations" (MFN) status - pertaining to the imports and exports on a nation on a case-by-case basis which may cover specific commodities or groups of goods and services.

The Trade Status and commodity exchanges would not even be at issue if it had not been for the Russian violation of the International Law Concerning Friendly Relation and Cooperation Among States (A/RES/25/2625 • XXV) which covers the movement by military force on the Ukraine and the Crimea. But the US must temper its use of economics as a political weapon. While we still call ourselves a "superpower" the leadership and following of America has diminished immensely since the turn of the century. America has lost its integrity and leadership role in the world. The US prominence on the world stage is the impact of the economy. But for now, the American People have kept US the economic powerhouse of the world. Even China with is huge labor and natural resources cannot match the US with an economy that is stronger than the entire European Union (all 27 countries). Russia does not have a slice of the pie (See link).
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VhcJ1FN7vA8/WeFZcXuj0sI/AAAAAAAAwSo/lX9Ih9-KFzcpsSvIZeRbr2vdg9jkSMc-QCK4BGAYYCw/s1600/U.S.%2BEconomy%2B%257C%2BGlobal%2BInstitute%2Bfor% 2BDemocracy%2Band%2BStrategic%2BStudies-718869.jpg


http://www.debatepolicy.com/blob:http://www.debatepolicy.com/8028681b-89ac-438f-aa25-79d9363abadb
Most Respectfully,
R

[fj1200]

Many think apocalypse coming may be by agreement after we--the USA-- is removed from the equation.
Who knows?
I think it is coming nearer but I have no clue how it comes.
And I am not guessing now. But it will come when its people decide to pull that trigger.
And from how things are lining it up---it may-- be sooner rather than much later. ----Tyr

Whatever "it" is it will come when we decide; nobody else. A sad day indeed because of our own (un)doing. But I'll tell you this; "Its" coming will be hastened by the US withdrawing from the world through short-sighted protectionist actions that people think is for our own good and betterment. We should be signing free trade agreements with any comparable country/region that will agree to it. Further we should grant any small or underdeveloped country access to our markets whether they reciprocrate or not. The US needs to lead and it needs to lead based on the principles of liberty and self-determination.

[Kathianne]

Whatever "it" is it will come when we decide; nobody else. A sad day indeed because of our own (un)doing. But I'll tell you this; "Its" coming will be hastened by the US withdrawing from the world through short-sighted protectionist actions that people think is for our own good and betterment. We should be signing free trade agreements with any comparable country/region that will agree to it. Further we should grant any small or underdeveloped country access to our markets whether they reciprocrate or not. The US needs to lead and it needs to lead based on the principles of liberty and self-determination.

Agreed. Helping smaller, un/underdeveloped countries become more self-sufficient is the primary factor in allying. Gifts/donations may or may not be appreciated, but do not engender the loyalty that economic partnerships do.

What Congress should be more aggressive about is allowing selling of scarce earth minerals wherever we can exert control-especially US corporations.

[AHZ]

Whatever "it" is it will come when we decide; nobody else. A sad day indeed because of our own (un)doing. But I'll tell you this; "Its" coming will be hastened by the US withdrawing from the world through short-sighted protectionist actions that people think is for our own good and betterment. We should be signing free trade agreements with any comparable country/region that will agree to it. Further we should grant any small or underdeveloped country access to our markets whether they reciprocrate or not. The US needs to lead and it needs to lead based on the principles of liberty and self-determination.


"it" is the defeat of the american people with an ai powered globalist computer system that the slavers will use to oppress all of humanity.

americans are defeated if we allow the technocratic green agenda to disallow us use of our own resources.


biden is the opressor.

[fj1200]

"it" is the defeat of the american people with an ai powered globalist computer system that the slavers will use to oppress all of humanity.

americans are defeated if we allow the technocratic green agenda to disallow us use of our own resources.


biden is the opressor.

Yeah, it sounds stupid when you say it. biden is a fool and a stooge.

[AHZ]

Yeah, it sounds stupid when you say it. biden is a fool and a stooge.


because you've learned to associate globalism with pompousity, arrogance and false complexity.


you're so warped you perceive succinct truth as stupidity.

[fj1200]

because you've learned to associate globalism with pompousity, arrogance and false complexity.


you're so warped you perceive succinct truth as stupidity.

My modus operandi here is to first take people as they are. I've learned equating you with a thinking adult was an incorrect premise.

[AHZ]

My modus operandi here is to first take people as they are. I've learned equating you with a thinking adult was an incorrect premise.


you can't take the heat.

so you have resorted to pure personal attack and nonsense.

[Black Diamond]

My modus operandi here is to first take people as they are. I've learned equating you with a thinking adult was an incorrect premise.

:laugh:

[AHZ]

:laugh:


hey chucklenutz, maybe you can explain why it's smart to send all the jobs away to a global adversary.

[Gunny]

hey chucklenutz, maybe you can explain why it's smart to send all the jobs away to a global adversary.

Think you could keep your broken record question down to one thread?

[AHZ]

Think you could keep your broken record question down to one thread?


no.

it's the biggest issue of our time, being always ever present and relevant.

[Gunny]

no.

it's the biggest issue of our time, being always ever present and relevant.Let me try this a different way. I have the capability of cutting out all your cookie cutter posts and putting them in one, cookie cutter thread.

That would be as opposed to you constantly disrupting threads, demanding someone answer for something they never stated. Not to mention it looks a lot better for you if you question something that is stated rather than something you pull out your backside.

So I thought I'd ask politely before you force me to do it the hard way.

[AHZ]

Let me try this a different way. I have the capability of cutting out all your cookie cutter posts and putting them in one, cookie cutter thread.

That would be as opposed to you constantly disrupting threads, demanding someone answer for something they never stated. Not to mention it looks a lot better for you if you question something that is stated rather than something you pull out your backside.

So I thought I'd ask politely before you force me to do it the hard way.


abuse your power if you want, little hitler.

[Gunny]

abuse your power if you want, little hitler.You just can't be original about anything, can you?

Attempted deflection noted. If you have a question about my behavior as a Moderator, feel free to find another moderator or Admin and voice your grievance. Given your behavior, I wouldn't bother, but that privilege is extended to you nonetheless.

[Black Diamond]

hey chucklenutz, maybe you can explain why it's smart to send all the jobs away to a global adversary.

You know me so well.

[RoccoR]

RE: NATO delivers gut punch to Putin (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?78174-NATO-delivers-gut-punch-to-Putin&p=1011933#post1011933)
SUBTOPIC: The Gut Punch
※→ et al,
(GETTING BACK ON TRACK)


he original topic suggests that the Gut Punch delivered some pain to the Russian Federation either in the short term or farther down range. I do not believe this to be the case. I do not think we have seen to this point and policy level pain delivered to Russia. We have yet to see a real shift in the public opinion of the Russian Population.

Oh yes, the Allied Powers, in the form of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and, to a lesser degree, the European Union (EU) have opened up lines of military resupply into the Ukraine. And this has improved the qualitative abilities of the Ukrainian Military Forces. The Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE) has, in addition to routine weapons and munitions, opened the doors for the more sophisticated weapons systems like a limited number of F-16s, Army Tactical Missile Systems (MGM-140s), and a limited number of cruise missiles systems. Additionally, the French have provided SCALP and the British have contributed Shadow Storm. So the established Allied supply routes are working, yet we do not known what kind of reliability it will have when under the stress of a Ukrainian counterattack in terms of sustainability (what measures are being taken to prevent the exhaustion and depletion of these high performance weapon systems).

On the other hand, the supply lines of the Russians are very short and the resupply capability and new manufacturing capacity of the Russians is more formidable. However, their resupply network is not without it challenges faced from destruction by Ukrainian defense force obstacles, bridge destruction and simple hit and run tactics. Together, this make for a difficult row to hoe in progress penetration of Ukrainian defensive positions.

There is yet a clear picture of Ukrainian successes relative to current operations. And very slow progress may adversely affect support and public confidence. And SHAPE would like to see a public backlash from the Russian Home Front.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/blob:http://www.debatepolicy.com/39f64c93-e01d-49db-a60c-f021a43e533e
Most Respectfully,
R

[AHZ]

You just can't be original about anything, can you?

Attempted deflection noted. If you have a question about my behavior as a Moderator, feel free to find another moderator or Admin and voice your grievance. Given your behavior, I wouldn't bother, but that privilege is extended to you nonetheless.


you were asking. do what you want.

it's a free country, for you.

[fj1200]

you can't take the heat.

so you have resorted to pure personal attack and nonsense.

That's comical. That's your entire repertoire here.

[AHZ]

That's comical. That's your entire repertoire here.


desantoid is indicative of who you support.

neocon is indicative of your view on globalist stupidity and the perpetual war machine.

these are mostly descriptive. if you're upset with these monikers, then do better, Bozo Von Poopoo.

true story.

[fj1200]

desantoid is indicative of who you support.

neocon is indicative of your view on globalist stupidity and the perpetual war machine.

these are mostly descriptive. if you're upset with these monikers, then do better, Bozo Von Poopoo.

true story.


you can't take the heat.

so you have resorted to pure personal attack and nonsense.

Uh huh. If you weren't a hypocrite you wouldn't be much here at all.

[AHZ]

Uh huh. If you weren't a hypocrite you wouldn't be much here at all.


is this board hypocrites only?

seems right.