The Architect Of His Own Destruction-Again

[Kathianne]

revelarts

This is the kind of stuff that there's just no understanding or excuse for:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-indictment-documents-mar-a-lago-security-footage-carlos-de-oliveira-walt-nauta-a0061873?st=krlhxwwt5ewtqjl&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Trump Is Charged With a CoverupThe evidence in the new indictment, if true, undercuts his defense in the documents case.
By The Editorial Board
July 28, 2023 6:20 pm ET

Does Donald Trump not understand the greatest truism in politics—i.e., that it’s not the crime, it’s the coverup? That screams from the page while reading Thursday’s superseding indictment of Mr. Trump, who now stands accused of trying to delete incriminating Mar-a-Lago security video.


Special counsel Jack Smith charged Mr. Trump last month with unlawfully retaining national-security information, as well as concealing classified files at his Florida club. According to this week’s indictment, the feds subpoenaed Mar-a-Lago’s surveillance footage on June 24, 2022. Within hours, Mr. Trump’s valet, Walt Nauta, was planning to fly to the club, while texting its IT director to ask if he was available.


On Saturday, June 25, Mr. Nauta and Carlos De Oliveira, a club property manager, “went to the security guard booth where surveillance video is displayed on monitors, walked with a flashlight through the tunnel where the Storage Room was located, and observed and pointed out surveillance cameras.” On Monday morning, Mr. De Oliveira found the IT director, took him “to a small room known as an ‘audio closet,’” and asked him how long the club’s server kept footage. He then said “that ‘the boss’ wanted the server deleted,” the indictment says.


Mr. Trump is entitled to a defense and presumption of innocence, but this is a damaging allegation. Will the Mar-a-Lago IT director take the stand? Prosecutors are presumably telling Messrs. Nauta and De Oliveira, who also face criminal counts, that it would be in their best interests to cooperate and testify to what “the boss” told them.


If Mr. Trump sought to destroy evidence, it undercuts his defense on the document charges. He contends that the Presidential Records Act gives him the right to retain documents from his time in office. But if Mr. Trump believed that, he would have played it straight. If the indictment is right that he hid the files from his own lawyers and tried to wipe the security video to stop anybody from finding out, then he didn’t buy his own defense.


Prudential questions about the wisdom of this prosecution remain. Mr. Trump appears to have kept the files out of pigheadedness, not because he wanted to do something nefarious like sell them to an adversary. The FBI raided Mar-a-Lago to recover the documents.


The episode reflects poorly on Mr. Trump. But is this conduct that truly gives President Biden no choice except to ask a jury to jail his leading political opponent in next year’s election? At least Watergate involved a burglary.

...

Yet Republicans should also be angry at Mr. Trump, who is again the architect of his own destruction. He led the GOP to defeats, many of them driven by his personal grievances, in 2018, 2020, 2021 and 2022. Add his Covid performance, the Jan. 6 riot, a $5 million civil jury verdict for sexual abuse, plus now a truly stupid alleged Mar-a-Lago coverup.


Yet Mr. Trump still expects the GOP will save him from his own recklessness by nominating him for the White House a third time. He wants Republican voters, as he does Messrs. Nauta and De Oliveira, to take the fall with him.


Good luck if they do. The best revenge for Mr. Trump’s supporters would be to nominate a Republican who can beat Mr. Biden. That’s the way to restore apolitical justice.

[AHZ]

@revelarts (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=1760)

This is the kind of stuff that there's just no understanding or excuse for:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-indictment-documents-mar-a-lago-security-footage-carlos-de-oliveira-walt-nauta-a0061873?st=krlhxwwt5ewtqjl&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


still more nothing burger.



the more you deride him and align with the mainstream lie bags, the more powerful he becomes.

I don't believe you ever voted for the man.

you think you're some slick psyop person, but you're obviously a romney republican.

[hjmick]

@revelarts (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=1760)

This is the kind of stuff that there's just no understanding or excuse for:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-indictment-documents-mar-a-lago-security-footage-carlos-de-oliveira-walt-nauta-a0061873?st=krlhxwwt5ewtqjl&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink



And yet Republican politicians remain cowed by this loser... His sycophantic followers continue to send him money and believe he is a Republican.


It boggles the mind.

[AHZ]

And yet Republican politicians remain cowed by this loser... His sycophantic followers continue to send him money and believe he is a Republican.


It boggles the mind.


righto.

he's better than a republican.

republcans have historically been globalist traitors and betrayers.

trump is better than a republican.

:salute:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

revelarts

This is the kind of stuff that there's just no understanding or excuse for:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-indictment-documents-mar-a-lago-security-footage-carlos-de-oliveira-walt-nauta-a0061873?st=krlhxwwt5ewtqjl&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

One has to wonder how much of that is true. Since the other side has zero honor and lie like a rug!-Tyr

[AHZ]

One has to wonder how much of that is true. Since the other side has zero honor and lie like a rug!-Tyr


the trump deranged don't value truth.:salute:

[revelarts]

weeelll, the overall quality of people we have in office is sad.

When Clinton was Pres they called him the "teflon president" because, concerning a lot of the public, nothing would stick to him.
Early on Trump himself said, "I could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not loose any people.".

And frankly, I have to say, that the crime they are tossing at him his enemies have made fairly minor, politically speaking. comparatively & actually.

Clinton: raped and assaulted women. Used drugs. And people were likely killed to keep his scandals quiet Vince Foster being one. (cover up much?)
Bush: lied us into war and tortured people. Killed millions of Iraqis, acted unconstitutionally a thousand different ways to 'get the terrorist' & "keep us safe" (i know some don't like to hear that but objectively it true)
Obama: Targeted political enemies with the IRS. Spied on Trump for Hilary. And the general unconstitutional spying of citizens continued, He had a world wide kill list, killed civilians in drone strikes, targeted reporters with fed & spying, etc etc .


Sooo yeah, A former President having classified material at his home... and even stupidly covering it up.
Is wrong, yes.
But I remember a Secretary of State who had classified material on an unsecure computer at home. And on a bunch of unsecured phones.
And she had many of the phones smashed with hammers and cleaned with digital bleach before investigators could look at them.
But The DOJ somehow decided that there was nothing to worry about.
And She ran for president without even having to really bring it up again. "What difference does it make" is what she said I think.

So, sorry even I can't get hair on fire mad at Trump for doing the same. (Not to mention that Biden had classified docs in his garage, other officials too)
Definitely can't pretend that his supporters should somehow now think FAR less of him. Or up and abandon him as if this is so horrifyingly bad.
I think what he did was at the least STUPID and careless. And the cover up outright criminal.
But I'm under no illusions about Trump's and other politicians character.
And I cant see this prosecution as anything less than selective, to get Trump, in the light of Hillary's light -nothing burger- treatment.


And Again in general, I'm frankly surprised that the string of crimes they've throne at Trump have been so soft.
In contrast to the political norm.
I don't think they've even tried to get him on stocks, land or influence for his biz. which is what i was waiting to see from him.

[AHZ]

weeelll, the overall quality of people we have in office is sad.

When Clinton was Pres they called him the "teflon president" because, concerning a lot of the public, nothing would stick to him.
Early on Trump himself said, "I could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not loose any people.".

And frankly, I have to say, that the crime they are tossing at him his enemies have made fairly minor, politically speaking. comparatively & actually.

Clinton: raped and assaulted women. Used drugs. And people were likely killed to keep his scandals quiet Vince Foster being one. (cover up much?)
Bush: lied us into war and tortured people. Killed millions of Iraqis, acted unconstitutionally a thousand different ways to 'get the terrorist' & "keep us safe" (i know some don't like to hear that but objectively it true)
Obama: Targeted political enemies with the IRS. Spied on Trump for Hilary. And the general unconstitutional spying of citizens continued, He had a world wide kill list, killed civilians in drone strikes, targeted reporters with fed & spying, etc etc .


Sooo yeah, A former President having classified material at his home... and even stupidly covering it up.
Is wrong, yes.
But I remember a Secretary of State who had classified material on an unsecure computer at home. And on a bunch of unsecured phones.
And she had many of the phones smashed with hammers and cleaned with digital bleach before investigators could look at them.
But The DOJ somehow decided that there was nothing to worry about.
And She ran for president without even having to really bring it up again. "What difference does it make" is what she said I think.

So, sorry even I can't get hair on fire mad at Trump for doing the same. (Not to mention that Biden had classified docs in his garage, other officials too)
Definitely can't pretend that his supporters should somehow now think FAR less of him. Or up and abandon him as if this is so horrifyingly bad.
I think what he did was at the least STUPID and careless. And the cover up outright criminal.
But I'm under no illusions about Trump's and other politicians character.
And I cant see this prosecution as anything less than selective, to get Trump, in the light of Hillary's light -nothing burger- treatment.


And Again in general, I'm frankly surprised that the string of crimes they've throne at Trump have been so soft.
In contrast to the political norm.
I don't think they've even tried to get him on stocks, land or influence for his biz. which is what i was waiting to see from him.


this is all they have. and it's mostly made up. that's obviously why.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

weeelll, the overall quality of people we have in office is sad.

When Clinton was Pres they called him the "teflon president" because, concerning a lot of the public, nothing would stick to him.
Early on Trump himself said, "I could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not loose any people.".

And frankly, I have to say, that the crime they are tossing at him his enemies have made fairly minor, politically speaking. comparatively & actually.

Clinton: raped and assaulted women. Used drugs. And people were likely killed to keep his scandals quiet Vince Foster being one. (cover up much?)
Bush: lied us into war and tortured people. Killed millions of Iraqis, acted unconstitutionally a thousand different ways to 'get the terrorist' & "keep us safe" (i know some don't like to hear that but objectively it true)
Obama: Targeted political enemies with the IRS. Spied on Trump for Hilary. And the general unconstitutional spying of citizens continued, He had a world wide kill list, killed civilians in drone strikes, targeted reporters with fed & spying, etc etc .


Sooo yeah, A former President having classified material at his home... and even stupidly covering it up.
Is wrong, yes.
But I remember a Secretary of State who had classified material on an unsecure computer at home. And on a bunch of unsecured phones.
And she had many of the phones smashed with hammers and cleaned with digital bleach before investigators could look at them.
But The DOJ somehow decided that there was nothing to worry about.
And She ran for president without even having to really bring it up again. "What difference does it make" is what she said I think.

So, sorry even I can't get hair on fire mad at Trump for doing the same. (Not to mention that Biden had classified docs in his garage, other officials too)
Definitely can't pretend that his supporters should somehow now think FAR less of him. Or up and abandon him as if this is so horrifyingly bad.
I think what he did was at the least STUPID and careless. And the cover up outright criminal.
But I'm under no illusions about Trump's and other politicians character.
And I cant see this prosecution as anything less than selective, to get Trump, in the light of Hillary's light -nothing burger- treatment.


And Again in general, I'm frankly surprised that the string of crimes they've throne at Trump have been so soft.
In contrast to the political norm.
I don't think they've even tried to get him on stocks, land or influence for his biz. which is what i was waiting to see from him.



And Again in general, I'm frankly surprised that the string of crimes they've throne at Trump have been so soft.
In contrast to the political norm.
I don't think they've even tried to get him on stocks, land or influence for his biz. which is what i was waiting to see from him.

That is because they want to use that later on when it will do the most good for them, it will inflict the most harm on him, imho. -Tyr

[revelarts]

BTW concerning tapes
Do we have some video tapes on that cocaine in the white house?
Can we see all the tapes of the Jan 6 White house events?
What about all the info on the Hunters Laptop?

There are a lot missing audio & video records that should be available to various defense & prosecution cases.

[AHZ]

BTW concerning tapes
Do we have some video tapes on that cocaine in the white house?
Can we see all the tapes of the Jan 6 White house events?
What about all the info on the Hunters Laptop?

There are a lot missing audio & video records that should be available to various defense & prosecution cases.


and aren't trumps security tapes his property?

much different that public surveillance.

[revelarts]

and aren't trumps security tapes his property?

much different that public surveillance.
Yes, thats very true.
Public records should be public by default.

But Hunter's & Epstien's files were private property as well.

& Erasing videos , smashing tech & burning files doesn't seem to be the acts of innocent people.
does it?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

[QUOTE=revelarts;1012898]Yes, thats very true.
Public records should be public by default.

But Hunter's & Epstien's files were private property as well.

& Erasing videos , smashing tech & burning files doesn't seem to be acts of innocent people.
does it?[/QUOTE

haha, well it does when those doing have a big D beside their name. Ask the hideous hildabeast about that..-Tyr

[AHZ]

Yes, thats very true.
Public records should be public by default.

But Hunter's & Epstien's files were private property as well.

& Erasing videos , smashing tech & burning files doesn't seem to be acts of innocent people.
does it?

what evidence is supposed to be on trumps video tapes?

Were trumps tapes subpoenaed?

and hillarys smashed phones were government property.

[AHZ]

He's the architect of his own and america's awesomeness.


:dance::salute:

[Gunny]

weeelll, the overall quality of people we have in office is sad.

When Clinton was Pres they called him the "teflon president" because, concerning a lot of the public, nothing would stick to him.
Early on Trump himself said, "I could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not loose any people.".

And frankly, I have to say, that the crime they are tossing at him his enemies have made fairly minor, politically speaking. comparatively & actually.

Clinton: raped and assaulted women. Used drugs. And people were likely killed to keep his scandals quiet Vince Foster being one. (cover up much?)
Bush: lied us into war and tortured people. Killed millions of Iraqis, acted unconstitutionally a thousand different ways to 'get the terrorist' & "keep us safe" (i know some don't like to hear that but objectively it true)
Obama: Targeted political enemies with the IRS. Spied on Trump for Hilary. And the general unconstitutional spying of citizens continued, He had a world wide kill list, killed civilians in drone strikes, targeted reporters with fed & spying, etc etc .


Sooo yeah, A former President having classified material at his home... and even stupidly covering it up.
Is wrong, yes.
But I remember a Secretary of State who had classified material on an unsecure computer at home. And on a bunch of unsecured phones.
And she had many of the phones smashed with hammers and cleaned with digital bleach before investigators could look at them.
But The DOJ somehow decided that there was nothing to worry about.
And She ran for president without even having to really bring it up again. "What difference does it make" is what she said I think.

So, sorry even I can't get hair on fire mad at Trump for doing the same. (Not to mention that Biden had classified docs in his garage, other officials too)
Definitely can't pretend that his supporters should somehow now think FAR less of him. Or up and abandon him as if this is so horrifyingly bad.
I think what he did was at the least STUPID and careless. And the cover up outright criminal.
But I'm under no illusions about Trump's and other politicians character.
And I cant see this prosecution as anything less than selective, to get Trump, in the light of Hillary's light -nothing burger- treatment.


And Again in general, I'm frankly surprised that the string of crimes they've throne at Trump have been so soft.
In contrast to the political norm.
I don't think they've even tried to get him on stocks, land or influence for his biz. which is what i was waiting to see from him.Not going to go tit for tat on what I agree/disagree with. Using comparative reasoning, two wrongs make a right :rolleyes:

The right stands on its soapbox and bitches about a 2-tier justice system; yet, mum on this one. Goes straight to my forever argument that it isn't about the crime, nor the color of one's skin. Rather, it's about your social class.

The crime is not minor. It's a Federal felony with up to 10 years in prison and a $10k fine for each count. In the military it also comes with busted to the rank of E-1, Bad Conduct Discharge and forfeiture of all pay and allowances. I have seen first hand people immediately arrested and held in confinement pending trial for mishandling just a couple of classified documents, not BOXES of them. There are currently countless people in prison doing time, their lives ruined, for far less.

Then he tries to cover it up instead of distancing himself and playing dumb like Biden and Pence (Biden doesn't have to play at it). With Trump and Hitlery especially, just sheer arrogance. They're above the law. Who puts them above the law? WE do.

The right is downplaying this, just like the left downplays its damned crooks. That the left hates Trump is more important than any substance or lack thereof he presents. He's a damned Dem dressed like a Republican. Everything he does is exactly what the left does. And his supporters condone it.

So the left has shifted left, and the right has shifted left to fill the vacuum and it is now okay to be what we once despised?

Not me.

[revelarts]

Not going to go tit for tat on what I agree/disagree with. Using comparative reasoning, two wrongs make a right :rolleyes:

The right stands on its soapbox and bitches about a 2-tier justice system; yet, mum on this one. Goes straight to my forever argument that it isn't about the crime, nor the color of one's skin. Rather, it's about your social class.

The crime is not minor. It's a Federal felony with up to 10 years in prison and a $10k fine for each count. In the military it also comes with busted to the rank of E-1, Bad Conduct Discharge and forfeiture of all pay and allowances. I have seen first hand people immediately arrested and held in confinement pending trial for mishandling just a couple of classified documents, not BOXES of them. There are currently countless people in prison doing time, their lives ruined, for far less.

Then he tries to cover it up instead of distancing himself and playing dumb like Biden and Pence (Biden doesn't have to play at it). With Trump and Hitlery especially, just sheer arrogance. They're above the law. Who puts them above the law? WE do.

The right is downplaying this, just like the left downplays its damned crooks. That the left hates Trump is more important than any substance or lack thereof he presents. He's a damned Dem dressed like a Republican. Everything he does is exactly what the left does. And his supporters condone it.

So the left has shifted left, and the right has shifted left to fill the vacuum and it is now okay to be what we once despised?

Not me.
I've got no problem with that.

I can't speak for other conservative but my Short answer is,
OK, If all we've got to choose from are a bunch of political crooks & liars it seems reasonably to me to clearly see which ones are worse & most dangerous.
BTW I didn't vote for Trump. (or Biden)


long answer, --And I'm sure i dont speak for other conservatives on this--,
But if we're going with EQUAL justice under the law then let's do it.
the Cases of Biden's, Pence's and everyone elses classified docs need to be in court TODAY as in TODAY.
if not , sorry I'm not crying if Trump get's away with it.
The same as i wouldn't cry if one my neighbor got away with some TAX crime that rich people get away with daily.

Here' my default position on this kinda thing.
On one end of the spectrum.
NO ONE should get away with murder, rape & child abuse. (including under the guise of war or law enforcement) no statute of limitations. no excuses.
In cases where REAL HARM is done folks should be put on trial & pay.

On the opposite end of the spectrum.
On matters of law having to do with things that can not reasonably be said to have caused any harm.
But are "illegal".
I'm looking for EQUAL justice. (if not repeal) And if it's NOT equal, well then, in my book, ANYONE who "gets away with it" i'm not going to cry after them.
Especially if those trying to "uphold the law" are doing it simply as an attack on that person... or group.
My hard line in the sand is "HARM". not "the law". (for one thing We've got too many BS laws on the books.)

But I see what you're saying about the rules for classified docs.
And i can understand the reasons for them. the POTENTIAL for harm is there.
But in this case, was there any harm done? None to my knowledge.

As far as his cover up is concerned, Yes it's criminal. as i said. Similar to a drug addict flushing his drugs down the toilet when the cops show up.
So Am i going to stick to the letter of law and and throw the book at him?
Not me.
As you say, if it were some rich guy's son who flushed the drugs down the toilet he'd get off without a problem.
And Look, I don't want the rich kid in jail over a petty drug crime AND i do not want the kid from projects in jail for it either.
NO HARM DONE. Why are 'we' throwing the book at this kid?

I'm not some law and order by the book type.
Andy Griffith style justice is fine by me.
The questions for me are real HARM & EQUAL Justice.
That's where I start.

So no, I'm not losing any sleep over Trump's "crimes" in this case.

[AHZ]

Not going to go tit for tat on what I agree/disagree with. Using comparative reasoning, two wrongs make a right :rolleyes:

The right stands on its soapbox and bitches about a 2-tier justice system; yet, mum on this one. Goes straight to my forever argument that it isn't about the crime, nor the color of one's skin. Rather, it's about your social class.

The crime is not minor. It's a Federal felony with up to 10 years in prison and a $10k fine for each count. In the military it also comes with busted to the rank of E-1, Bad Conduct Discharge and forfeiture of all pay and allowances. I have seen first hand people immediately arrested and held in confinement pending trial for mishandling just a couple of classified documents, not BOXES of them. There are currently countless people in prison doing time, their lives ruined, for far less.

Then he tries to cover it up instead of distancing himself and playing dumb like Biden and Pence (Biden doesn't have to play at it). With Trump and Hitlery especially, just sheer arrogance. They're above the law. Who puts them above the law? WE do.

The right is downplaying this, just like the left downplays its damned crooks. That the left hates Trump is more important than any substance or lack thereof he presents. He's a damned Dem dressed like a Republican. Everything he does is exactly what the left does. And his supporters condone it.

So the left has shifted left, and the right has shifted left to fill the vacuum and it is now okay to be what we once despised?

Not me.

mum on what?

trump having the massive declass powers like all presidents have had?

bothsidesism only works when there are two reasonably different sides. this is why your strategy no longer works. there is no rational argument that trump is "just as bad".

your fence sitting days are over.

[Gunny]

I've got no problem with that.

I can't speak for other conservative but my Short answer is,
OK, If all we've got to choose from are a bunch of political crooks & liars it seems reasonably to me to clearly see which ones are worse & most dangerous.
BTW I didn't vote for Trump. (or Biden)


long answer, --And I'm sure i dont speak for other conservatives on this--,
But if we're going with EQUAL justice under the law then let's do it.
the Cases of Biden's, Pence's and everyone elses classified docs need to be in court TODAY as in TODAY.
if not , sorry I'm not crying if Trump get's away with it.
The same as i wouldn't cry if one my neighbor got away with some TAX crime that rich people get away with daily.

Here' my default position on this kinda thing.
On one end of the spectrum.
NO ONE should get away with murder, rape & child abuse. (including under the guise of war or law enforcement) no statute of limitations. no excuses.
In cases where REAL HARM is done folks should be put on trial & pay.

On the opposite end of the spectrum.
On matters of law having to do with things that can not reasonably be said to have caused any harm.
But are "illegal".
I'm looking for EQUAL justice. (if not repeal) And if it's NOT equal, well then, in my book, ANYONE who "gets away with it" i'm not going to cry after them.
Especially if those trying to "uphold the law" are doing it simply as an attack on that person... or group.
My hard line in the sand is "HARM". not "the law". (for one thing We've got too many BS laws on the books.)

But I see what you're saying about the rules for classified docs.
And i can understand the reasons for them. the POTENTIAL for harm is there.
But in this case, was there any harm done? None to my knowledge.

As far as his cover up is concerned, Yes it's criminal. as i said. Similar to a drug addict flushing his drugs down the toilet when the cops show up.
So Am i going to stick to the letter of law and and throw the book at him?
Not me.
As you say, if it were some rich guy's son who flushed the drugs down the toilet he'd get off without a problem.
And Look, I don't want the rich kid in jail over a petty drug crime AND i do not want the kid from projects in jail for it either.
NO HARM DONE. Why are 'we' throwing the book at this kid?

I'm not some law and order by the book type.
Andy Griffith style justice is fine by me.
The questions for me are real HARM & EQUAL Justice.
That's where I start.

So no, I'm not losing any sleep over Trump's "crimes" in this case.I have stated from the onset all should be charged equally as if they were LCpl Schmuckatelli. They can all tell their sob stories to the judge.

I'm fine with Andy Griffith justice. As long as it's fair and equal across the board.

Your analogy doesn't work though. Big difference between attempted coverup of a felony that could affect National Security and flushing the stash where the only one being harmed is the doper. Andy Griffith would take potential harm into consideration.

[Gunny]

mum on what?

trump having the massive declass powers like all presidents have had?

bothsidesism only works when there are two reasonably different sides. this is why your strategy no longer works. there is no rational argument that trump is "just as bad".

your fence sitting days are over.Even your imagined arguments are wrong.

[AHZ]

Even your imagined arguments are wrong.
but why is sending all the jobs away smart?