View Full Version : Morality is rational.
Morality is definitely rational.
Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors that faciltate voluntary, cooperative, and mutally beneficial relationships.
To figure out what is moral apply jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational.
if jesus told you to be rational would rationality be religious dogma?
no, it just means that's a good religion.
rationality is not morality in and of itself. one could very easily rationalize lying to and poisoning all of humanity, if one possesses a 'might makes right' darwinian / evil outlook, like big pharma nazis do.
Morality is more that rationality. it is rationality plus wanting coexistence and peace, and presuming acceptance.
all the worlds relgions possess basic moral truths and practice them within the community.
they all have their focuses, peculiarities, and different outlook on relations with "other". some are less peaceful than others.
the "turn the other cheek" /golden rule ethos of christianity and appeal to the heart instead of coercion does make christianity well suited to multicultural contexts we live in now. some are too stabby and beheady and need reforming, though some parties like stabby and beheady due to posessing genocidal ideologies. these are false moralities and seek to cover human on human predation with a patina of thin/bad logic.
i know, "the crusades" etc, but the roman papal cult is not a great version of christianity.
i think the amish have it right and are basically the perfect people, though of course, we all are flawed and falled, life being a constant battle to love perfect a perfect love in a fallen world.
and oh yeah. The catholic church invented islam.
revelarts
08-25-2023, 08:43 AM
Morality is definitely rational.
Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors that faciltate voluntary, cooperative, and mutally beneficial relationships.
To figure out what is moral apply jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational.
if Jesus told you to be rational would rationality be religious dogma?
no, it just means that's a good religion.
rationality is not morality in and of itself. one could very easily rationalize lying to and poisoning all of humanity, if one possesses a 'might makes right' darwinian / evil outlook, like big pharma nazis do.
Morality is more that rationality. it is rationality plus wanting coexistence and peace, and presuming acceptance.
all the worlds relgions possess basic moral truths and practice them within the community.
they all have their focuses, peculiarities, and different outlook on relations with "other". some are less peaceful than others.
the "turn the other cheek" /golden rule ethos of christianity and appeal to the heart instead of coercion does make christianity well suited to multicultural contexts we live in now. some are too stabby and beheady and need reforming, though some parties like stabby and beheady due to posessing genocidal ideologies. these are false moralities and seek to cover human on human predation with a patina of thin/bad logic.
i know, "the crusades" etc, but the roman papal cult is not a great version of christianity.
i think the amish have it right and are basically the perfect people, though of course, we all are flawed and falled, life being a constant battle to love perfect a perfect love in a fallen world.
and oh yeah. The catholic church invented islam.
Yes, morality is rational.
you say
"To figure out what is moral apply Jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational."
Ok, so we START with Jesus. Yes, That's what i'm saying.
the Base is Jesus/God.
We don't start with Darwin.
If we start with Darwin what do we get?
Darwin says we're just animals, and everything about us is just for survival and reproduction.
If that's the case then good and evil are just as important for survival & reproduction. Since it's part of our nature. Also we see "from nature" that there's nothing inherent in any species survival. that is to say that there's nothing guaranteed about survival. There are more kinds of extinct animals than living. There's nothing in nature that says we should use empathy in every case (any case)...to maximize our individual survival. By any means necessary seems more natural. And if we want to expand our reproduction, men should spread seed far and wide. And abortions should never happen BTW.
If children/adults are taught that Jesus is a myth, or a take it or leave it "religious" figure who should never be talked in polite conversation... or ever in politics.
And Darwinism is FACTUALLY true beyond question.
Why exactly should anyone take the so-called words of Jesus anymore seriously than the words of Santa Claus?
While Karl Marks was a real person, who says the world is all class struggle and you have to break the system, and religion is just another control system of the capitalist elite.
If Jesus words shouldn't even be mentioned in public, or in schools, or in politics, or in polite conversations. Who's going to know what He or his apostles said anyway.
And if, at best, 'religious people" should Join Darwinism with Jesus ...somehow... where's Jesus in the mix with Darwin, a higher or lower authority?
Does it make sense for young people or anyone to RATIONALLY apply the words of Jesus to anything serious?
Yes, morality is rational.
you say
"To figure out what is moral apply Jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational."
Ok, so we START with Jesus. Yes, That's what i'm saying.
the Base is Jesus/God.
We don't start with Darwin.
If we start with Darwin what do we get?
Darwin says we're just animals, and everything about us is just for survival and reproduction.
If that's the case then good and evil are just as important for survival & reproduction. Since it's part of our nature. Also we see "from nature" that there's nothing inherent in any species survival. that is to say that there's nothing guaranteed about survival. There are more kinds of extinct animals than living. There's nothing in nature that says we should use empathy in every case (any case)...to maximize our individual survival. By any means necessary seems more natural. And if we want to expand our reproduction, men should spread seed far and wide. And abortions should never happen BTW.
If children/adults are taught that Jesus is a myth, or a take it or leave it "religious" figure who should never be talked in mixed company... or ever in politics.
And Darwinism is FACTUALLY true beyond question.
Why exactly should anyone take the so-called words of Jesus anymore seriously than the words of Santa Claus?
While Karl Marks was a real person, who says the world is all class struggle and you have to break the system, and religion is just another control system of the capitalist elite.
If Jesus words shouldn't even be mentioned in public, or in schools, or in politics, or in polite conversations. Who's going know what he said anyway.
And if, at best, 'religious people" should Join Darwinism with Jesus ...somehow... where's Jesus in the mix with Darwin, a higher or lower authority?
Does it make sense for young people or anyone to RATIONALLY apply the words of Jesus to anything serious?
but it's not a fixed list of anything specific. it's a call to use one;s personal judgement and own experiences to know how to treat others.
I'm pro religious. Im fine mentioning god and jesus in public.
of course god is rational. all religions share 90+ percent of their moral teachings.
i think all the religions are more alike than not alike.
these anti-religionists always say religion can only be divisive, that's beause they have a mass delusion in their brain that causes them to gin up war for profit and call it noble. they make everything divisive as a business model.
that's evil.
god is the answer, not the problem.
morality is a feature, not a bug.
i mention darwinism because darwinism is often used to justify evil behavior about "survival of the fittest" or the luciferian ideology.
The flaw in that is morality and working together is our strongest feature. and elities throw away that reality and pefer their 'Might makes right' / "it's ok to lie to everybody" ideology.
even if we descended from apes, that doesn't mean morality is regressive. it's our path forward.
the separtion of church and state is not the separation of humanity from morality. the latter is the demonic abuse of freedom policies.
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
08-25-2023, 10:56 AM
In this world there exists good and evil. It is rational
to be good, to do good. Those that believe evil is rational or that evil is better, are indeed crazy.
Of course sane people know this already.
So just what are the people that think the opposite is true???--Tyr
In this world there exists good and evil. It is rational
to be good, to do good. Those that believe evil is rational or that evil is better, are indeed crazy.
Of course sane people know this already.
So just what are the people that think the opposite is true???--Tyr
i think it's people doing awful things and committed to evil trying to lie to themselves.
Does it make sense for young people or anyone to RATIONALLY apply the words of Jesus to anything serious?
yes. we would have a revolution of human consciousness and spirituality.
revelarts
08-25-2023, 09:19 PM
yes. we would have a revolution of human consciousness and spirituality.
That would be OUTSTANDING.
But if they end up believing the lies they've been told were facts, that Jesus, and all religions, are just myths & tools of control & the cause of most wars and conflict through history, it would not be a rational move on their part.
But yes, Youth turning to Jesus's words and person... in mass... for a spiritual awakening.
https://media.giphy.com/media/vS6EAkJ84LV4CPEv1a/giphy.gif
let it be done.
That would be OUTSTANDING.
But if they end up believing the lies they've been told were facts, that Jesus, and all religions, are just myths & tools of control & the cause of most wars and conflict through history, it would not be a rational move on their part.
But yes, Youth turning to Jesus's words and person... in mass... for a spiritual awakening.
https://media.giphy.com/media/vS6EAkJ84LV4CPEv1a/giphy.gif
let it be done.
religious organizations can become corrupt and power seeking and start interpreting the core doctrines to that end. too much wisdom of the fathers can lead to fascism. Oh shit did he say that?
religions are tools of control on the dark side, but also transmitters of morality and light.
the human ability to cooperate is really our ace in the hole.
it all comes down to us and what we do with things.
Have you all checked out alan watts on christianity and the eastern religions.
quite insightful.
and hilarious.
He made a point how chrisitianity is really playing with fire by talking about men being gods also.
"ok, but just one of you...."
revelarts
08-26-2023, 01:49 PM
Have you all checked out alan watts on christianity and the eastern religions.
quite insightful.
and hilarious.
He made a point how chrisitianity is really playing with fire by talking about men being gods also.
"ok, but just one of you...."
I'm vaguely familiar with Alan Watt.. I think there maybe 2 of them.
If it's the one I'm thinking of. he's just another person that thinks all religions, including christianity, are myths.
That idea helps people to go to the fire. while thinking they are wise.
I'm vaguely familiar with Alan Watt.. I think there maybe 2 of them.
If it's the one I'm thinking of. he's just another person that thinks all religions, including christianity, are myths.
That idea helps people to go to the fire. while thinking they are wise.
i wouldn't say that's his take.
he's a deeply spiritual person.
He's an ordained episcopalian priest / professor who got deeply into comparative religion, with a focus on buddhism, taoism, hinduism etc....hippy stuff if you want to call it that.
the golden rule is the most important part of christianity, not the nicene creed.
was the cathar genocide just?
revelarts
08-28-2023, 08:18 AM
i wouldn't say that's his take.
he's a deeply spiritual person.
He's an ordained Episcopalian priest / professor who got deeply into comparative religion, with a focus on buddhism, taoism, hinduism etc....hippy stuff if you want to call it that.
I think he's the other Alan Watt, not the main one I've reviewed, Give me link to his stuff.
But still, he and the other are on the same track... with a mythological view of Jesus & the Bible.
Sadly most Episcopalian priest live there.
the golden rule is the most important part of christianity, not the nicene creed.
How do you come to that conclusion?
And why are you only making those 2 items the only choices from which to pick "the most important part of Christianity"?
Was the Cathar genocide just?
Who said it was?
I think he's the other Alan Watt, not the main one I've reviewed, Give me link to his stuff.
But still, he and the other are on the same track... with a mythological view of Jesus & the Bible.
Sadly most Episcopalian priest live there.
How do you come to that conclusion?
And why are you only making those 2 items the only choices from which to pick "the most important part of Christianity"?
Who said it was?
he believes that multiple religions point to the same real spirituality.
he's not a reductionist.
it's cross validation that spirit and soul are real.
revelarts
08-28-2023, 09:01 AM
he believes that multiple religions point to the same real spirituality.
He's not a reductionist.
It's cross validation that spirit and soul are real.
Yes, there's no doubt that other religions point to the reality of spirit & soul.
Some religions point to sacrificing children to the real spirits as well. Still a problem in parts of India.
Many religions correctly point to fact that there are spirits that LIE to people.
When Satan confronts Jesus, half of what Satan said was true. When he spoke to Eve as well.
We can acknowledge truth found in other religion but we cannot pretend they are all "basically the same". not if we're honest about each religions in full. and how the true parts are mingled with deadly falsehoods.
Jesus was very clear,
He said "I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father but by me."
Alan Watt and others seem to like to cherry pick the bits and pieces of religion that suit them.
And promote the parts they like.
The Unity and Unitarian religions do the same thing more explicitly.
Seems to me it's ...weird... to say,
'I know best i'll take the part of what Jesus and the apostles said and ignore the rest. Because, well, I know better than they do.'
.......
Concerning the most important part of Christianity. It seems pretty clear that 4 gospels and the rest of the new testament promote the belief in the Death & Resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of the sins of the world as MOST important.
And 'Loving your Neighbor' should be a By Product of, and acknowledgement of, that gift.
Yes, there's no doubt that other religions point to the reality of spirit & soul.
Some religions point to sacrificing children to the real spirits as well. Still a problem in parts of India.
Many religions correctly point to fact that there are spirits that LIE to people.
When Satan confronts Jesus, half of what Satan said was true. When he spoke to Eve as well.
We can acknowledge truth found in other religion but we cannot pretend they are all "basically the same". not if we're honest about each religions in full. and how the true parts are mingled with deadly falsehoods.
Jesus was very clear,
He said "I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father but by me."
Alan Watt and others seem to like to cherry pick the bits and pieces of religion that suit them.
And promote the parts they like.
The Unity and Unitarian religions do the same thing more explicitly.
Seems to me it's ...weird... to say,
'I know best i'll take the part of what Jesus and the apostles said and ignore the rest. Because, well, I know better than they do.'
.......
Concerning the most important part of Christianity. It seems pretty clear that 4 gospels and the rest of the new testament promote the belief in the Death & Resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of the sins of the world as MOST important.
And 'Loving your Neighbor' should be a By Product of, and acknowledgement of, that gift.
outsiders would also discredit christianity as it burned witches, and genocided other christians, and did inquisitions.
granted it was many years ago, and has reformed since then.
islam needs to go through that.
basic morality is the intersection diagram of the moral codes the religions espouse for treating the "ingroup".
"out group" treatments are more problematic, and often a leftover from periods of violence and hard times that created a trauma bonding reaction within the community, and may have been retrofitted into the community as a reaction.
a basic morality can be abstracted. this combined with overt religious individual freedom is sufficient, and optimal, like what we have now.
like I always say, separation of church and state is not the separation of morality from humanity.
focusing on a creed about belief in a few key miracles misses the entire point.
the golden rule is more important.
this is my determination.
I read and think for myself, and i pick and choose, just like we all do.
I admit I do it.
revelarts
08-28-2023, 09:28 AM
lets' maybe stay on 1 point at a time.
outsiders would also discredit christianity as it burned witches, and genocided other christians, and did inquisitions.
.
Did Jesus Christ or the Apostles teach any of that?
If not, was it really Christianity?
If all the Priest & preachers become trans and promote marriage to animals, does that make it "Christian"?
Or are they just using the NAME?
When a uniformed cop shoots an innocent person for personal reasons does that mean that that's what "policing" is all about?
Or is that a perversion of what policing is supposed to be?
Some people discredit the police completely too.
Seems an extreme take to me.
lets' maybe stay on 1 point at a time.
Did Jesus Christ or the Apostles teach any of that?
If not, was it really Christianity?
If all the Priest & preachers become trans and promote marriage to animals, does that make it "Christian"?
Or are they just using the NAME?
When a uniformed cop shoots an innocent person for personal reasons does that mean that that's what "policing" is all about?
Or is that a perversion of what policing is supposed to be?
Some people discredit the police completely too.
Seems an extreme take to me.
I agree. theyre just using the name. but they also placed the nicene creed central to being a christain. maybe that is suspect also.
anything bent into a politically conceived imperial cult will have issues.
maybe it's like making people say men can be women as a sign they place authority over their own rationality.
luckily, morality is rational.
revelarts
08-28-2023, 09:44 AM
I agree. theyre just using the name.
anything bent into a politically conceived imperial cult will have issues
agreed.
but they also placed the nicene creed central to being a Christian. maybe that is suspect also.
.
The Nicene Creed was created in like 325AD long before any crusades or killing of witches or inquisitions.
the Christians at the time of the creeds writing were the one's being jailed, hunted down, killed in arenas, burned etc..
But I am curious what do you think is wrong/false/problematic with the creed exactly?
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
agreed.
The Nicene Creed was created in like 325AD long before any crusades or killing of witches or inquisitions.
the Christians at the time of the creeds writing were the one's being jailed, hunted down, killed in arenas, burned etc..
But I am curious what do you think is wrong/false/problematic with the creed exactly?
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
It's not about what's right or wrong about it. it's about making people agree with it or burning them.
there is some vagueness in it. maybe some hyperbole? weasel words?
what if you really think the golden rule is the most important point, the actual point of the whole thing, in fact?
I think the real jesus would say:
"You can think i never existed, as long as you follow the golden rule while doing it."
revelarts
08-28-2023, 11:16 AM
It's not about what's right or wrong about it. it's about making people agree with it or burning them.
where does it say anything about burning people who don't agree with it?
It does not. never has.
neither do any of the other Christian creeds that I know of.
As you say Jesus taught to treat others as we would like to be treated.
And why do we even listen to his words? because He is who the creed says he is.
If not, he's just some 1st century Jewish street preacher who was killed by the Romans.
or a myth.
There is some vagueness in it. maybe some hyperbole? weasel words?
Where exactly? what do you mean?
what if you really think the golden rule is the most important point, the actual point of the whole thing, in fact?
People can think what they want.
But Peter who walked with him When asked to speak about Jesus said
..."You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him."
“We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”...
Acts 10:37-43
that's what Peter talked about 1st. and thought was the point of the whole thing.
people are perfectly free to think otherwise but again, it's odd to me that we would think we know better "what the REAL Point is" than the people that lived with and Him and heard him speak and explain it all to them 1st hand.
Why would anyone assume they know better?
If someone says I LIKE THIS part better, OK I can get that. but I don't understand people claiming that xyz is WHAT REALY is the point. when it's clear that's NOT what Jesus or the apostles said.
"love your neighbor" is a Foundational truth, but not THE main thing Jesus told the apostles and christians to talk about.
"He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
I think the real Jesus would say:
"You can think i never existed, as long as you follow the golden rule while doing it."
"...He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name...”
where does it say anything about burning people who don't agree with it?
It does not. never has.
neither do any of the other Christian creeds that I know of.
As you say Jesus taught to treat others as we would like to be treated.
And why do we even listen to his words? because He is who the creed says he is.
If not, he's just some 1st century Jewish street preacher who was killed by the Romans.
or a myth.
Where exactly? what do you mean?
People can think what they want.
But Peter who walked with him When asked to speak about Jesus said
..."You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him."
“We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”...
Acts 10:37-43
that's what Peter talked about 1st. and thought was the point of the whole thing.
people are perfectly free to think otherwise but again, it's odd to me that we would think we know better "what the REAL Point is" than the people that lived with and Him and heard him speak and explain it all to them 1st hand.
Why would anyone assume they know better?
If someone says I LIKE THIS part better, OK I can get that. but I don't understand people claiming that xyz is WHAT REALY is the point. when it's clear that's NOT what Jesus or the apostles said.
"love your neighbor" is a Foundational truth, but not THE main thing Jesus told the apostles and christians to talk about.
"He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
"...He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name...”
the church has done that over people not agreeing with specifics in the nicene creed.
you can preach and testify without torture and murder and persecution.
that's a perversion of the faith.
it's not winning hearts and minds. the golden rule, being innately fair, wins hearts and minds.
forcing agreement with unverifiable miracles is counterproductive and unnecessary, unless one just likes to find reasons to force things, like military industrial complexes.
revelarts
08-28-2023, 11:58 AM
the church has done that over people not agreeing with specifics in the nicene creed.
police have killed innocent people. but that's not the job of police.
PLUS "the church" didn't do that when it started. it didn't do that when it proposed the creed. the creed did NOT say any thing CLOSE to "kill thoose who don't beleive"
most of Church history the Church did not and HAS NOT killed unbelievers.
if you want to narrow focus on that era that's on you.
you can preach and testify without torture and murder and persecution.
that's a perversion of the faith.
it's not winning hearts and minds.
Every church i've ever been a member of has had a "creed".
somehow we never got around to torturing murdering or persecuting those that didn't believe exactly like we did.
Maybe I was sick on those Sundays and missed the torture, murder and persecution of the unbelievers Sunday.
I'm pretty sure my experience is pretty common for the past 2000 years and around the world.
the golden rule, being innately fair, wins hearts and minds.
forcing agreement with unverifiable miracles is counterproductive and unnecessary, unless one just likes to find reasons to force things, like military industrial complexes.
Jesus & the Apostle's and other followers of Jesus weren't killed over the past 2000 years and around the world because they teach 'the golden rule.'
Jesus was killed, and his followers, because He taught, what you somehow in your greater wisdom think is"counterproductive and unnecessary".
But again Peter said.
"...He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name...”
Billions have heard that message ... the truth... and believed it.
And then FOLLOWING that belief began to apply the golden rule.
You want the milk & eggs without the mess of the cows, chicken & barnyard.
police have killed innocent people. but that's not the job of police.
PLUS "the church" didn't do that when it started. it didn't do that when it proposed the creed. the creed did NOT say any thing CLOSE to "kill thoose who don't beleive"
most of Church history the Church did not and HAS NOT killed unbelievers.
if you want to narrow focus on that era that's on you.
Every church i've ever been a member of has had a "creed".
somehow we never got around to torturing murdering or persecuting those that didn't believe exactly like we did.
Maybe I was sick on those Sundays and missed the torture, murder and persecution of the unbelievers Sunday.
I'm pretty sure my experience is pretty common for the past 2000 years and around the world.
Jesus & the Apostle's and other followers of Jesus weren't killed over the past 2000 years and around the world because they teach 'the golden rule.'
Jesus was killed, and his followers, because He taught, what you somehow in your greater wisdom think is"counterproductive and unnecessary".
But again Peter said.
"...He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name...”
Billions have heard that message ... the truth... and believed it.
And then FOLLOWING that belief began to apply the golden rule.
You want the milk & eggs without the mess of the cows, chicken & barnyard.
Don't blame me for focussing on that era.
Morality is already sold innately because all faiths have fairly close versions of it.
rationality speaks for itself.
making people profess belief in unconfirmable miracles is a form of appeal to authority and totalitarianism.
we should lead with the golden rule. that's all im saying.
i really think jesus would prefer that.
revelarts
08-28-2023, 12:20 PM
Don't blame me for focussing on that era.
why not?
you're the only one in the conversation pointing to it as if it's the core of christianity
why not?
you're the only one in the conversation pointing to it as if it's the core of christianity
I think the core is the golden rule.
the nicene creed is less important.
do you agree?
revelarts
08-28-2023, 12:39 PM
I think the core is the golden rule.
the nicene creed is less important.
do you agree?
Should the person who spoke the golden rule be the one to tell us what's his most important teaching is or should we each just take our best guess?
Should the person who spoke the golden rule be the one to tell us what's his most important teaching is or should we each just take our best guess?
he said it;s the whole of the law. that seems clear to me.
revelarts
08-28-2023, 01:41 PM
he said it's the whole of the law. that seems clear to me.
That is clear.
Most important foundation of the LAW.
AHZ, What happens when you break the law? Or break the golden rule?
What do you do with your guilt?
Guilt is just as innately real as the internal morals that expose it.
EVERYONE is guilty of NOT following the golden rule in small and large degrees.
Jesus told Peter and the apostles the most important thing is
"...He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name...”
Wether or not you think that's the best approach is your opinion.
Jesus said THAT'S what Peter and his followers should lead to... if not lead with.
Why? Because the guilt of each of us from not always following the golden rule has to be dealt with.
Wether you believe it or not is between you and God.
But there's plenty of evidence to back it up to make a rational step into that belief.
If you want to see it. A lot is self evident.
BTW I just found out Sunday that a popular YouTube atheist who called himself "Cosmic Skeptic" became a Christian some time last year.
now calls himself "Cosmic Christian". He became a Christian AFTER looking at the evidence. Not by torture, or blind faith, or appeals to authority.
Gunny
08-28-2023, 03:58 PM
Morality is definitely rational.
Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors that faciltate voluntary, cooperative, and mutally beneficial relationships.
To figure out what is moral apply jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational.
if jesus told you to be rational would rationality be religious dogma?
no, it just means that's a good religion.
rationality is not morality in and of itself. one could very easily rationalize lying to and poisoning all of humanity, if one possesses a 'might makes right' darwinian / evil outlook, like big pharma nazis do.
Morality is more that rationality. it is rationality plus wanting coexistence and peace, and presuming acceptance.
all the worlds relgions possess basic moral truths and practice them within the community.
they all have their focuses, peculiarities, and different outlook on relations with "other". some are less peaceful than others.
the "turn the other cheek" /golden rule ethos of christianity and appeal to the heart instead of coercion does make christianity well suited to multicultural contexts we live in now. some are too stabby and beheady and need reforming, though some parties like stabby and beheady due to posessing genocidal ideologies. these are false moralities and seek to cover human on human predation with a patina of thin/bad logic.
i know, "the crusades" etc, but the roman papal cult is not a great version of christianity.
i think the amish have it right and are basically the perfect people, though of course, we all are flawed and falled, life being a constant battle to love perfect a perfect love in a fallen world.
and oh yeah. The catholic church invented islam.
Morality is rationalized, not necessarily rational.
That is clear.
Most important foundation of the LAW.
AHZ, What happens when you break the law? Or break the golden rule?
What do you do with your guilt?
Guilt is just as innately real as the internal morals that expose it.
EVERYONE is guilty of NOT following the golden rule in small and large degrees.
Jesus told Peter and the apostles the most important thing is
"...He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name...”
Wether or not you think that's the best approach is your opinion.
Jesus said THAT'S what Peter and his followers should lead to... if not lead with.
Why? Because the guilt of each of us from not always following the golden rule has to be dealt with.
Wether you believe it or not is between you and God.
But there's plenty of evidence to back it up to make a rational step into that belief.
If you want to see it. A lot is self evident.
BTW I just found out Sunday that a popular YouTube atheist who called himself "Cosmic Skeptic" became a Christian some time last year.
now calls himself "Cosmic Christian". He became a Christian AFTER looking at the evidence. Not by torture, or blind faith, or appeals to authority.
so you do or don't want a theocracy?
i never said all christians came to it by torture. but people have been murdered for not believing or agreeing with items in the nicene creed. thought crimes.
i think that's wrong.
Black Diamond
08-28-2023, 04:15 PM
so you do or don't want a theocracy?
i never said all christians came to it by torture. but people have been murdered for not believing or agreeing with items in the nicene creed. thought crimes.
i think that's wrong.
A theocracy vs the woke "democracy " or woke "republic "we are headed for?
Good question.
revelarts
08-28-2023, 06:36 PM
Morality is rationalized, not necessarily rational.
if we begin and end with only ourselves.
There's an inner morality that we KNOW.
Similar to the way we know if we're off balance.
Problem is the culture is like living all our lives on different ships where we get used to the bobbing and swaying. Yet we manage to stay upright most of the time. and have some sense of up & down and sideways.
But when someone says there's such a thing as land that does not move. That the water and ships float on.
people who've never been on land don't believe it.
And just want to trust their guts that they are standing up strait... most of the time. When they've never really every known what solid ground is.
Jesus is the Rock. God is the foundation. the objective standard. the source of morality.
Water and ships floating in space makes no sense.
Morality without a foundation somewhere makes no sense.
if there's no universal foundation then everyones personal sense of morals. up, down, sideways, is just as good as anyone elses.
You don't have to believe in God or the land if you don't want to.
You can tell people to trust their guts and personal sense of balance and the words of Davey Jones. Cause Davey jones was a wise man...maybe.
Or tell people to just check the deck of the ship. Yes, that's it's better than Nothing.
And is generally based on the land anyway.
Even though they can't see it, or even believe in it.
But the thing is if you REALLY want to get strait and level you have to reference the land.
rationally speaking.
revelarts
08-28-2023, 06:55 PM
so you do or don't want a theocracy?
So exactly what have I said here to make you think i want a theocracy?
How does using free speech to tell people your understanding of the truth, turn into theocracy & mind control.
You don't have to believe it at all.
You are free to believe what you want.
I'm free to say you are wrong here ... or right here. based on my understanding and the evidence.
But to answer this question AGAIN.
"And as i mentioned before, I want no new laws.
I want REPEAL of new laws so that the old laws stand.
The old laws that ALIGN CLOSER with "religion".
Amazingly it seems that the old laws align closer to "religion" specifically, broad brush Conservative Christianity.
It's almost like the people who wrote them were religious or influenced by religion or maybe even Christian or something."
to go further .I'll say, YES i do want a theocracy...When Jesus returns there will be a theocracy. That's when I want it.
But He's never asked Christians to create one on earth.
The ancient Jews were supposed to do that with the state of Israel. As an example to the world... and basically, they failed.
But I Do believe that the secular U.S. can learn from Israel's example, laws and practice
For one thing, Israel and less than 1000 laws!
Limited gov't.
No standing army.
No monarchy, president or congress making laws willy nilly. but local elders oversight and local courts, and appellate courts
Private property
Ways of breaking up monopolistic land ownership every 50 years
taxes that went directly to help the poor
Any of that sound "too religious"?
Sound like mind control theocracy?
Gunny
08-28-2023, 07:05 PM
if we begin and end with only ourselves.
There's an inner morality that we KNOW.
Similar to the way we know if we're off balance.
Problem is the culture is like living all our lives on different ships where we get used to the bobbing and swaying. Yet we manage to stay upright most of the time. and have some sense of up & down and sideways.
But when someone says there's such a thing as land that does not move. That the water and ships float on.
people who've never been on land don't believe it.
And just want to trust their guts that they are standing up strait... most of the time. When they've never really every known what solid ground is.
Jesus is the Rock. God is the foundation. the objective standard. the source of morality.
Water and ships floating in space makes no sense.
Morality without a foundation somewhere makes no sense.
if there's no universal foundation then everyones personal sense of morals. up, down, sideways, is just as good as anyone elses.
You don't have to believe in God or the land if you don't want to.
You can tell people to trust their guts and personal sense of balance and the words of Davey Jones. Cause Davey jones was a wise man...maybe.
Or tell people to just check the deck of the ship. Yes, that's it's better than Nothing.
And is generally based on the land anyway.
Even though they can't see it, or even believe in it.
But the thing is if you REALLY want to get strait and level you have to reference the land.
rationally speaking.
No such thing as inner/inherent morality. Morality is what societies determine to be right/wrong, good/bad. We are born knowing only hunger and cold. We do what it takes to survive. If we are born into a society, we learn what we are taught from society in order to survive. Even if we choose later to go against society, our Worldview is STILL based on what it has taught us.
Judeo-Christianity is taught to us from birth. Christians take it on faith, AND CALL IT THAT, that Christ is our Savior and through Him we earn eternal salvation. Had we not been taught such, our Worldview would be completely different.
revelarts
08-28-2023, 08:45 PM
No such thing as inner/inherent morality. Morality is what societies determine to be right/wrong, good/bad. We are born knowing only hunger and cold. We do what it takes to survive. If we are born into a society, we learn what we are taught from society in order to survive. Even if we choose later to go against society, our Worldview is STILL based on what it has taught us.
Well you know that's what a lot of folks use to teach. (after schools got away from the biblical world view)
but there have been studies of Babies... before they can speak.
where they show them a puppet show of one puppet mistreating another. then after the show give the puppets to the child and over and over again the children tries to punish the aggressive puppets.
What are some of the 1st words out of a child's mouth?
after "mine!" it's
"that's not fair!".
they say it with the clear expectation that others know INTUITIVELY exactly what they are talking about.
researchers have gone around the world and looked at most cultures, most cultures understand some version of "right and wrong" and want to paint themselves as right.
like here in the U.S. where abortionist try to paint themselves as helping women. Doing "good".
the moral leaning inside of people is in fact innate. (the expression of it .. as i mentioned in the previous... can be all over the place)
And when it's not there we call that person a psychopath.
If i understand it correctly we don't call them that just because they aren't following cultural norms,
Or even that they aren't generally doing right or wrong themselves.
They know, from watching others, what it means. But they have no real sense of it or guilt themselves.
Some people have had severe brain trauma, or emotional trauma to the point where they've lost the general sense.
so yeah gunny i have to disagree. we are not "just" operating off of cultural cues. the cultures have all (come out of Adam) & coalesced around the same natural inborn tendencies.
Look, do we say that romantic love is just cultural? No. we know that it's universal across culture. INNATE. It's courtship rituals are just expressed differently via different traditions.
Do we say that since not everyone has experience deep romantic feelings, that it's not real? Or not part of most people operating system even if it's not accessed?
God has planted something of a moral compass IN us that most of us can't deny.
We usually just call it a conscience.
Judeo-Christianity is taught to us from birth. Christians take it on faith, AND CALL IT THAT, that Christ is our Savior and through Him we earn eternal salvation. Had we not been taught such, our Worldview would be completely different.
I was taught it and I didn't believe it.
Because i was asked to just take it on BLIND faith. I was a serious agnostic and could take Christianity or leave it along with all the other religions.
it amazed me that people COULD bring themselves to act like it was true.
But I also knew i didn't know everything so i was open to listen to all views.
When I got older i realized there's more to it historically and scientifically than what the simple half read misunderstood bible stories I had dismissed.
Bottom line people can and do change their POVs based on Information and not everyone holds to the worldview they were given when they were raised.
So exactly what have I said here to make you think i want a theocracy?
How does using free speech to tell people your understanding of the truth, turn into theocracy & mind control.
You don't have to believe it at all.
You are free to believe what you want.
I'm free to say you are wrong here ... or right here. based on my understanding and the evidence.
But to answer this question AGAIN.
to go further .I'll say, YES i do want a theocracy...When Jesus returns there will be a theocracy. That's when I want it.
But He's never asked Christians to create one on earth.
The ancient Jews were supposed to do that with the state of Israel. As an example to the world... and basically, they failed.
But I Do believe that the secular U.S. can learn from Israel's example, laws and practice
For one thing, Israel and less than 1000 laws!
Limited gov't.
No standing army.
No monarchy, president or congress making laws willy nilly. but local elders oversight and local courts, and appellate courts
Private property
Ways of breaking up monopolistic land ownership every 50 years
taxes that went directly to help the poor
Any of that sound "too religious"?
Sound like mind control theocracy?
I was talking to gunny.
he seems to want to enforce laws no matter what, rational, irrational, secular, whatever....
when you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. hes got a job to do.
Only the noahide laws command men to create government to enforce laws. and that's not christianity, it's judaism. two separate religions.
"palestinians don't exist" is kind of mind controlly and fucked up.
does the golden rule tell us to tell other people they don't exist?
Morlity is rational.
getting along facilitates cooperation and enhanced possibilities for all. it's objectively preferable.
it's mankinds greatest achievement. its precedes all other things we have accomplished.
we are a social species.
of course immorality sucks totalitarianism into existence. that's sometimes why jackboot types facilitate division and hatred.
constant fear and hatred dissolves our morality and dehumanizes us, like satan wants.
and mind your bloody oaths, folks.
jesus requires no secret ceremony.
No such thing as inner/inherent morality. Morality is what societies determine to be right/wrong, good/bad. We are born knowing only hunger and cold. We do what it takes to survive. If we are born into a society, we learn what we are taught from society in order to survive. Even if we choose later to go against society, our Worldview is STILL based on what it has taught us.
Judeo-Christianity is taught to us from birth. Christians take it on faith, AND CALL IT THAT, that Christ is our Savior and through Him we earn eternal salvation. Had we not been taught such, our Worldview would be completely different.
We're talking about morality being RATIONAL, not necessarily inherent.
chemistry knowledge isnt inherent but it is rational.
cooperation always makes societies stronger. people realize that after repeated interactions with one another.
we can do more cooperatively trusting in the understanding that others won't bludgeon us or rape our wives.
this is completely rational.
denying the rationality of morality keeps people clinging to "might makes right" jackboot ideologies.
Morality is human social technology. dont be a luddite.
the problem with darwinism as AN IDEOLOGY AND WORLDVIEW:
darwinism as a worldview tells people they should victimize others if they can so 'evolution can happen'.
it's really messed up and ultimately spiritually satanic.
even if we came from monkeys, morality is still our greatest achievement, though there is still much human on human predation.
insisting morality is irrational keeps otherwise rational people from exploring being a good person.
the system teaches that evil is enlightened (rational) and morality is an archaic superstition and must always be framed as such.
ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
08-29-2023, 07:45 AM
A million different stages to morality.
But none of them are better for all of mankind than is Christian moraility.--tyr
A million different stages to morality.
But none of them are better for all of mankind than is Christian moraility.--tyr
maybe.
but would you rather have everyone follow the golden rule, or have every believe the virgin birth?
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
08-29-2023, 08:11 AM
maybe.
but would you rather have everyone follow the golden rule, or have every believe the virgin birth?
Ideally one would follow both..!
Christian morality and the golden rule, n'est-ce pas? ,--- Tyr
Ideally one would follow both..!
Christian morality and the golden rule, n'est-ce pas? ,--- Tyr
the golden rule is the summation of christian morality.
but my questioned is formatted for a choice to be made, between believing the virgin birth and following the golden rule.
what if it has to be one or the other? just indulge me, as a hypothetical scenario.
Kathianne
08-29-2023, 08:58 AM
the golden rule is the summation of christian morality.
but my questioned is formatted for a choice to be made, between believing the virgin birth and following the golden rule.
what if it has to be one or the other? just indulge me, as a hypothetical scenario.
Sounds a bit satanic,'indulge me...' You like to tempt others onto the wrong road. It appears not to be limited to political issues either.
Sounds a bit satanic,'indulge me...' You like to tempt others onto the wrong road. It appears not to be limited to political issues either.
teaching people morality is rational is the wrong road?
how so?
please elucidate.
revelarts
08-29-2023, 09:11 AM
the golden rule is the summation of christian morality.
but my questioned is formatted for a choice to be made, between believing the virgin birth and following the golden rule.
what if it has to be one or the other? just indulge me, as a hypothetical scenario.
The virgin birth leads you to the following the person who spoke the golden rule so, if you're consistent, you get both.
IF you have a choice between
Real forgiveness from God for everything you've ever done wrong, spiritual peace, and a free pass to heaven with friendship with God based on the sacrifice of Jesus. And the Golden Rule.
or
just "the Golden Rule".
Which would you choose... hypothetically?
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
08-29-2023, 09:17 AM
the golden rule is the summation of christian morality.
but my questioned is formatted for a choice to be made, between believing the virgin birth and following the golden rule.
what if it has to be one or the other? just indulge me, as a hypothetical scenario.
Does not have to be one or the other. One can easily do both.
But if choosing just one , one has best choose the virgin birth, imho. -Tyr-Tyr
The virgin birth leads you to the following the person who spoke the golden rule so, if you're consistent, you get both.
IF you have a choice between
Real forgiveness from God for everything you've ever done wrong, spiritual peace, and a free pass to heaven with friendship with God based on the sacrifice of Jesus. And the Golden Rule.
or
just "the Golden Rule".
Which would you choose... hypothetically?
for all people to follow the golden rule. no doubt about it.
i believe that would be more important to jesus as well.
Does not have to be one or the other. One can easily do both.
But if choosing just one , one has best choose the virgin birth, imho. -Tyr-Tyr
of course. I agree.
but which would be a bigger success for morality, having all people believe the virgin birth, or having all people follow the golden rule?
consider virtue signalling versus actual life changes.
Kathianne
08-29-2023, 09:23 AM
for all people to follow the golden rule. no doubt about it.
i believe that would be more important to jesus as well.
of course. I agree.
but which would be a bigger success for morality, having all people believe the virgin birth, or having all people follow the golden rule?
Cake and eating. The trend continues.
Cake and eating. The trend continues.
the fact of morality being rational increases my faith.
i came to jesus because i saw his conslusions are sound.
this approach is more likely to expand morality to rational people.
telling people morality is merely superstition guarantees bad conduct, imo.
of course, as we already discussed, bad conduct sucks totalitarianism into existence.... so.... maybe thats the jackboot goal of keeping religion crazy.
keep austin weird.
keep religion crazy.
Gunny
08-29-2023, 02:09 PM
Well you know that's what a lot of folks use to teach. (after schools got away from the biblical world view)
but there have been studies of Babies... before they can speak.
where they show them a puppet show of one puppet mistreating another. then after the show give the puppets to the child and over and over again the children tries to punish the aggressive puppets.
What are some of the 1st words out of a child's mouth?
after "mine!" it's
"that's not fair!".
they say it with the clear expectation that others know INTUITIVELY exactly what they are talking about.
researchers have gone around the world and looked at most cultures, most cultures understand some version of "right and wrong" and want to paint themselves as right.
like here in the U.S. where abortionist try to paint themselves as helping women. Doing "good".
the moral leaning inside of people is in fact innate. (the expression of it .. as i mentioned in the previous... can be all over the place)
And when it's not there we call that person a psychopath.
If i understand it correctly we don't call them that just because they aren't following cultural norms,
Or even that they aren't generally doing right or wrong themselves.
They know, from watching others, what it means. But they have no real sense of it or guilt themselves.
Some people have had severe brain trauma, or emotional trauma to the point where they've lost the general sense.
so yeah gunny i have to disagree. we are not "just" operating off of cultural cues. the cultures have all (come out of Adam) & coalesced around the same natural inborn tendencies.
Look, do we say that romantic love is just cultural? No. we know that it's universal across culture. INNATE. It's courtship rituals are just expressed differently via different traditions.
Do we say that since not everyone has experience deep romantic feelings, that it's not real? Or not part of most people operating system even if it's not accessed?
God has planted something of a moral compass IN us that most of us can't deny.
We usually just call it a conscience.
I was taught it and I didn't believe it.
Because i was asked to just take it on BLIND faith. I was a serious agnostic and could take Christianity or leave it along with all the other religions.
it amazed me that people COULD bring themselves to act like it was true.
But I also knew i didn't know everything so i was open to listen to all views.
When I got older i realized there's more to it historically and scientifically than what the simple half read misunderstood bible stories I had dismissed.
Bottom line people can and do change their POVs based on Information and not everyone holds to the worldview they were given when they were raised.
If belief was inherent, you would not have free will to choose otherwise.
If belief was inherent, you would not have free will to choose otherwise.
beliefs are not inherent, but impulses are.
and we as mammals have a love and cooperation impulse, unlike the reptilians.
revelarts
08-29-2023, 03:26 PM
for all people to follow the golden rule. no doubt about it.
i believe that would be more important to jesus as well.
Jesus spoke about Hell more than any other person in Bible.
He loved people and wanted them to avoid it, so much so that he died to create THE way for people to escaped it.
it's not by trying and failing to live by the golden rule.
it's by trusting in him and his sacrifice.
Jesus would prefer people trust him.
Than to ignore his gift and try (& fail) to live by the golden rule as best they can and still go to Hell... As "nice people".
Like the rich young ruler He talk too.
you keep assuming you have an idea of what Jesus thinks but somehow you make little reference to what he said in context.
Just so where clear Jesus was ask what is the greatest Commandment
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Jesus Speaking to Jewish leader said to him.. follow the golden rule... umm, no wait a minute.
...For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God....
So I'm not sure how you've landed on the idea that Jesus would be More focused on the "golden rule" without reference to loving God, or trust in him.
Look AHZ, if you think it's better to generically promote the "golden rule" to a secular audience to try and help the culture reform, OK, fine.
go for it.
But don't pretend to speak to what Jesus REALLY wants, when his words are pretty clear & open to everyone who wants to see.
That He NEVER separated love of God from love to mankind, And never minimized salvation & eternal life... in favor of not offending or better reaching the non-religious with good advice.
Jesus has told Christians to spread the "Good News" not just the Good Advice.
Jesus spoke about Hell more than any other person in Bible.
He loved people and wanted them to avoid it, so much so that he died to create THE way for people to escaped it.
it's not by trying and failing to live by the golden rule.
it's by trusting in him and his sacrifice.
Jesus would prefer people trust him.
Than to ignore his gift and try (& fail) to live by the golden rule as best they can and still go to Hell... As "nice people".
Like the rich young ruler He talk too.
you keep assuming you have an idea of what Jesus thinks but somehow you make little reference to what he said in context.
Just so where clear Jesus was ask what is the greatest Commandment
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Jesus Speaking to Jewish leader said to him.. follow the golden rule... umm, no wait a minute.
...For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God....
So I'm not sure how you've landed on the idea that Jesus would be More focused on the "golden rule" without reference to loving God, or trust in him.
Look AHZ, if you think it's better to generically promote the "golden rule" to a secular audience to try and help the culture reform, OK, fine.
go for it.
But don't pretend to speak to what Jesus REALLY wants, when his words are pretty clear & open to everyone who wants to see.
That He NEVER separated love of God from love to mankind, And never minimized salvation & eternal life... in favor of not offending or better reaching the non-religious with good advice.
Jesus has told Christian to spread the "Good News" not just the Good Advice.
trying is the key.
of course we all fail. acknowledging the value of that golden rule path is more important than ackowledging unconfirmable miracles i believe.
you're proposing thought crimes. and I reject that.
and i havent actully seen jesus talking about hell all that much. that was a medieval art and fear control project more than anything.
a jew would have believed in death and resurrection at the end times.
Black Diamond
08-29-2023, 03:33 PM
Jesus spoke about Hell more than any other person in Bible.
He loved people and wanted them to avoid it, so much so that he died to create THE way for people to escaped it.
it's not by trying and failing to live by the golden rule.
it's by trusting in him and his sacrifice.
Jesus would prefer people trust him.
Than to ignore his gift and try (& fail) to live by the golden rule as best they can and still go to Hell... As "nice people".
Like the rich young ruler He talk too.
you keep assuming you have an idea of what Jesus thinks but somehow you make little reference to what he said in context.
Just so where clear Jesus was ask what is the greatest Commandment
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Jesus Speaking to Jewish leader said to him.. follow the golden rule... umm, no wait a minute.
...For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God....
So I'm not sure how you've landed on the idea that Jesus would be More focused on the "golden rule" without reference to loving God, or trust in him.
Look AHZ, if you think it's better to generically promote the "golden rule" to a secular audience to try and help the culture reform, OK, fine.
go for it.
But don't pretend to speak to what Jesus REALLY wants, when his words are pretty clear & open to everyone who wants to see.
That He NEVER separated love of God from love to mankind, And never minimized salvation & eternal life... in favor of not offending or better reaching the non-religious with good advice.
Jesus has told Christian to spread the "Good News" not just the Good Advice.
I fee like man has elevated "do unto others "
You'd think John 3:16-18 would be the most important. With the greatest commandment(s) right behind it.
I fee like man has elevated "do unto others "
You'd think John 3:16-18 would be the most important. With the greatest commandment(s) right behind it.
from the horse's mouth.
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Gunny
08-29-2023, 07:15 PM
You could make a goat rope out of anything:rolleyes:
Morality is rationalized by society or the individual. It is what is defined as the difference between right and wrong. It can be based on religion but is not required. It is not in and of itself rational as morality has no inherent quantification. People give it meaning.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/
Judeo-Christian society's morality is based on the Word of God and Jesus Christ. Confuscious stated "the Golden Rule" centuries before Christ was born.
Ephesians 2:8-9 [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Can't slide into Heaven on works alone either.
You could make a goat rope out of anything:rolleyes:
Morality is rationalized by society or the individual. It is what is defined as the difference between right and wrong. It can be based on religion but is not required. It is not in and of itself rational as morality has no inherent quantification. People give it meaning.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/
Judeo-Christian society's morality is based on the Word of God and Jesus Christ. Confuscious stated "the Golden Rule" centuries before Christ was born.
Ephesians 2:8-9 [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Can't slide into Heaven on works alone either.
Im saying its rational.
not rationalized.
there's a difference.
I'm not really talking about heaven.
Im talking about tangible 'on world' benefits of getting along, like enhanced peace, productivity, happiness, cooperation, and security.
https://www.christianity.com › wiki › christian-life › what-is-the-golden-rule.html (https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/what-is-the-golden-rule.html)
Aug 09, 2022 The Golden Rule is the ethical principle of treating other people as one's self would prefer to be treated. One of Jesus' most famous and impactful teachings, the Golden Rule can be found in the Bible verses Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31
Gunny
08-30-2023, 07:47 AM
Im saying its rational.
not rationalized.
there's a difference.
I'm not really talking about heaven.
Im talking about tangible 'on world' benefits of getting along, like enhanced peace, productivity happiness, cooperation, and security.
https://www.christianity.com › wiki › christian-life › what-is-the-golden-rule.html (https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/what-is-the-golden-rule.html)
Aug 09, 2022 The Golden Rule is the ethical principle of treating other people as one's self would prefer to be treated. One of Jesus' most famous and impactful teachings, the Golden Rule can be found in the Bible verses Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31
In other words, you don't know what you are talking about, starting with words mean things. Your morality is rational to you. That's as far as you can go. Where most provide a why it is rational, which is rationalizing, you fail that one also.
The Golden Rule is rational. The self-explanatory rules provides it own rationale. Christianity is not the rationale for the Golden Rule as it predates Christianity by centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
It is a tenet of Christ's teachings, but not a summation of his teachings. Following the Golden Rule alone -- works -- will not get one into Heaven, as referenced in my previous post.
In other words, you don't know what you are talking about, starting with words mean things. Your morality is rational to you. That's as far as you can go. Where most provide a why it is rational, which is rationalizing, you fail that one also.
The Golden Rule is rational. The self-explanatory rules provides it own rationale. Christianity is not the rationale for the Golden Rule as it predates Christianity by centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
It is a tenet of Christ's teachings, but not a summation of his teachings. Following the Golden Rule alone -- works -- will not get one into Heaven, as referenced in my previous post.
I don't think that's a fair assessment of my post.
The golden rule is a morality shared by many.... ie. it's not "mine" per-se.
Is cooperation and non-agression irrational to you?
jesus said verbatim it is the sum of the law and the prophets. this is jesus' own words, referenced in kjv.
other religions saying something similar doesn't mean the golden rule isnt fully christian.
if jesus said 2+2=4 would math become religious superstition?
Gunny
08-30-2023, 08:52 AM
I don't think that's a fair assessment of my post.
The golden rule is a morality shared by many.... ie. it's not "mine" per-se.
Is cooperation and non-agression irrational to you?
jesus said verbatim it is the sum of the law and the prophets. this is jesus' own words, referenced in kjv.Whether or not you think it is fair, it is accurate. I feel like I do when trying to teach my grandson to tie his shoes:rolleyes:
What you are trying to say but have to go round the World in a circle jerk of misusing the English language: Christian morality is rational. You rationalize this by the Golden Rule and Christ stating it is the sum of the law and prophets. Incomplete and argumentative in and of itself.
None of which supports the thread title: Morality is Rational.
Whether or not you think it is fair, it is accurate. I feel like I do when trying to teach my grandson to tie his shoes:rolleyes:
What you are trying to say but have to go round the World in a circle jerk of misusing the English language: Christian morality is rational. You rationalize this by the Golden Rule and Christ stating it is the sum of the law and prophets. Incomplete and argumentative in and of itself.
None of which supports the thread title: Morality is Rational.
I disagree.
The golden rule is not mine. thats just a fact.
Im saying the golden rule is rational.
christ said it is the sum of the law and the prophets.
Gunny
08-30-2023, 09:14 AM
I disagree.
The golden rule is not mine. thats just a fact.
Im saying the golden rule is rational.
christ said it is the sum of the law and the prophets.Dumbass, from what quadrant of the cosmos are you pulling this shit?
You did NOT state the Golden Rule is rational. Thread title: Morality is Rational.
If I posted a link that states the Golden Rule dates back at least as far as Confucius, where on Earth would you get the notion that I would EVER think you could come up with something like that? Have no fear that I would ever put you in the intellectual company of Jesus Christ or Confucius.
Kathianne
08-30-2023, 09:16 AM
Dumbass, from what quadrant of the cosmos are you pulling this shit?
You did NOT state the Golden Rule is rational. Thread title: Morality is Rational.
If I posted a link that states the Golden Rule dates back at least as far as Confucius, where on Earth would you get the notion that I would EVER think you could come up with something like that? Have no fear that I would ever put you in the intellectual company of Jesus Christ or Confucius.
More like that guy last century that liked the idea of the 'big lie.'
Dumbass, from what quadrant of the cosmos are you pulling this shit?
You did NOT state the Golden Rule is rational. Thread title: Morality is Rational.
If I posted a link that states the Golden Rule dates back at least as far as Confucius, where on Earth would you get the notion that I would EVER think you could come up with something like that? Have no fear that I would ever put you in the intellectual company of Jesus Christ or Confucius.
Morality is rational, especially as expressed in the golden rule, a defining statement of chirstian morality.
Confucius saying it doesn't mean christ didn't say it, or that it's not christian. two different people can agree and be rational.
Gunny
08-30-2023, 09:24 AM
Morality is rational, especially as expressed in the golden rule, a defining statement of chirstian morality.
Confucius saying it doesn't mean christ didn't say it, or that it's not christian. two different people can agree and be rational.Stumble while trying to backpedal and type at the same time?:rolleyes:
Try reading what is there as opposed to what is not. Your last sentence/paragraph addresses nothing I stated.
Stumble while trying to backpedal and type at the same time?:rolleyes:
Try reading what is there as opposed to what is not. Your last sentence/paragraph addresses nothing I stated.
yet, i'm satisfied with my response. you're free to remain plussed.
Gunny
08-30-2023, 09:30 AM
yet, i'm satisfied with my response. you're free to remain plussed.You mean the one I posted for you that in your desperation you ran for?
At least you wrecked a thread you started this time :rolleyes:
You mean the one I posted for you that in your desperation you ran for?
At least you wrecked a thread you started this time :rolleyes:
It's not wrecked.
@revelarts (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=1760)
let's talk more about the golden rule being actually unfit as moral guidance.
you say it can be twisted and used to suppress free speech.
anything can be twisted.
There's a golden rule defense of free speech as well. You don't want to be silenced, so don't silence others.
it stilll works well, unless your on the mission i mentioned before of keeping religion crazy.
there are dark business forces at work on our planet to stop outbreaks of peace, love, and harmony. Jackboot thug 'might makes right' morality. the twisiting of jesus into warrior jesus.
I think the amish are right on jesus.
the golden rule is amazing because it requires empathy and a basic understanding that we are much the same.
bad people hate empathy and people realizing their own natural affinity for peace and cooperation over murder and destruction.
Im writing a book "Globalist Dogma: Refusal of Empathy, the fall of mankind"
Red River Revel arts festival?
'doing right in one's own eyes', is not the same as the golden rule.....
revelarts
08-31-2023, 07:55 PM
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND EVERYONE.
BUSY WEEKEND HERE I'LL BE BACH
https://i.imgflip.com/3e3lzj.jpg
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND EVERYONE.
BUSY WEEKEND HERE I'LL BE BACH
https://i.imgflip.com/3e3lzj.jpg
it creeps me out that you're a christian who actively denigrates the golden rule, when jesus himself clearly presented it as "the sum of the law and the prophets.
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
09-02-2023, 10:24 AM
it creeps me out that you're a christian who actively denigrates the golden rule, when jesus himself clearly presented it as "the sum of the law and the prophets.
Consider this amigo, Jesus fulfilled the law. He supplanted the law.
As a Christian you represent the body of Christ. Golden rule stand as a way of dealing with the rest of humanity. -TYR
Consider this amigo, Jesus fulfilled the law. He supplanted the law.
As a Christian you represent the body of Christ. Golden rule stand as a way of dealing with the rest of humanity. -TYR
and his advice is that the golden rule is the basis for law.
a rational morality.
these neocon fake christians are trying to frame the golden rule as communism.
Gunny
09-02-2023, 11:04 AM
and his advice is that the golden rule is the basis for law.
a rational morality.
these neocon fake christians are trying to frame the golden rule as communism.
Serious overreach.
If you call anyone, mention or even hint at someone being a fake Christian again I'll squash you like the cockroach you are. That's off limits and this is your one warning on the matter. Nobody died and put you in charge of what only God knows and no one in their right mind ever would.
I don't need to tell you what I think about vermin putting words in Christ's mouth and/or presuming to play God and judging others' beliefs.
Serious overreach.
If you call anyone, mention or even hint at someone being a fake Christian again I'll squash you like the cockroach you are. That's off limits and this is your one warning on the matter. Nobody died and put you in charge of what only God knows and no one in their right mind ever would.
I don't need to tell you what I think about vermin putting words in Christ's mouth and/or presuming to play God and judging others' beliefs.
are you saying i put words in christ's mouth?
I wouldn't presume to do that.
some christians focus less on the golden rule i guess is a better way to put it.
Gunny
09-02-2023, 11:37 AM
are you saying i put words in christ's mouth?
I wouldn't presume to do that.
some christians focus less on the golden rule i guess is a better way to put it.Christ did not advise the Golden Rule should be law.
No one has stated the Golden Rule is communism.
YOU are the reason I, and many others, don't like discussing religion, especially on the internet. The least-educated on the topic with your 2-penny insults questioning/judging the religion beliefs of others because they don't buy your off-track, sideways BS.
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Matthew 7:5
You will not start a religious war on this board. Period. Save your double-talking bullshit.
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