Trudeau, Zelensky honor 98-year-old veteran who fought alongside Nazis in SS division

[revelarts]

Literal NAZI.
but PUTIN!

Trudeau, Zelensky honor 98-year-old veteran who fought alongside Nazis in SS division

The Parliament of Canada provided a loud, all-party standing ovation Friday to Yaroslav Hunka, a 98-year-old who served with the Nazi Waffen-SS during the Second World War.
Hunka was a soldier with the 14th "Galicia" division of the Waffen-SS, the military section of the Nazi SS, which was responsible for elements of terror from massive extermination camps to the daily torture and repression of citizens within occupied Europe. The International Military Tribunal that oversaw the Nuremberg war crimes trials declared the SS to be a criminal organization.
The Associated Press captioned of a picture documenting Hunka’s presence, describing Hunka as having "fought with the First Ukrainian Division in World War II before later immigrating to Canada." The Galicia division was rechristened in 1945 with a Ukrainian name in order to avoid connecting it to the Waffen-SS.

Hunka was a guest of Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Zelensky was in Ottawa to address a joint session of Parliament and to pick up more military aid from the Liberal government. In his address to Parliament, Zelensky thanked Canada for its continued support to the war with Russia and suggested Canadians have always been on "the bright side of history."

House of Commons Speaker Anthony Rota gushed over Hunka’s presence and told the Members of Parliament (MPs) that Hunka was a "veteran from the Second World War who fought for Ukrainian independence against the Russians and continues to support the troops today even at his age of 98."

Rota did not attempt to explain how Hunka’s belligerence against Russia did not serve Canada’s objectives during World War II. Canada did not fight against the Russians in the Second World War but, along with Great Britain, the United States and many other nations, was an ally of Russia, or the Soviet Union as it was then known.

Nonetheless, all the MPs rose to give Hunka a standing ovation. Such all-party demonstrations are extremely rare in Canada’s House of Commons. Hunka saluted the fanfare...

...It is not the first time the Trudeau government has supported Nazism – as long it comes from Ukraine.
...
https://thepostmillennial.com/trudeau-zelensky-honor-98-year-old-veteran-who-fought-along-side-nazis-in-ss-division?utm_campaign=64499


What kind of upside down world is this?

[Gunny]

Yep. Choices: Nazi Germany or Commie Russia and caught right in the middle. Guess it depends on who you hate/fear most.

[Black Diamond]

14421

[Black Diamond]

Literal NAZI.
but PUTIN!

Trudeau, Zelensky honor 98-year-old veteran who fought alongside Nazis in SS division

The Parliament of Canada provided a loud, all-party standing ovation Friday to Yaroslav Hunka, a 98-year-old who served with the Nazi Waffen-SS during the Second World War.
Hunka was a soldier with the 14th "Galicia" division of the Waffen-SS, the military section of the Nazi SS, which was responsible for elements of terror from massive extermination camps to the daily torture and repression of citizens within occupied Europe. The International Military Tribunal that oversaw the Nuremberg war crimes trials declared the SS to be a criminal organization.
The Associated Press captioned of a picture documenting Hunka’s presence, describing Hunka as having "fought with the First Ukrainian Division in World War II before later immigrating to Canada." The Galicia division was rechristened in 1945 with a Ukrainian name in order to avoid connecting it to the Waffen-SS.

Hunka was a guest of Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Zelensky was in Ottawa to address a joint session of Parliament and to pick up more military aid from the Liberal government. In his address to Parliament, Zelensky thanked Canada for its continued support to the war with Russia and suggested Canadians have always been on "the bright side of history."

House of Commons Speaker Anthony Rota gushed over Hunka’s presence and told the Members of Parliament (MPs) that Hunka was a "veteran from the Second World War who fought for Ukrainian independence against the Russians and continues to support the troops today even at his age of 98."

Rota did not attempt to explain how Hunka’s belligerence against Russia did not serve Canada’s objectives during World War II. Canada did not fight against the Russians in the Second World War but, along with Great Britain, the United States and many other nations, was an ally of Russia, or the Soviet Union as it was then known.

Nonetheless, all the MPs rose to give Hunka a standing ovation. Such all-party demonstrations are extremely rare in Canada’s House of Commons. Hunka saluted the fanfare...

...It is not the first time the Trudeau government has supported Nazism – as long it comes from Ukraine.
...
https://thepostmillennial.com/trudeau-zelensky-honor-98-year-old-veteran-who-fought-along-side-nazis-in-ss-division?utm_campaign=64499


What kind of upside down world is this?

Stalin starved people in Ukraine by the millions. Many Ukrainians believed the Jewish communist conspiracy that goes all the way back to 1917. So when the red army was driven out of Ukraine by the Germans circa 1941, many of the Ukrainian citizens went after the jews. All the Germans had to do was supervise the mass killings in Many cases.

There's a series on Netflix called einsatzgruppen. It's eye opening.

[revelarts]

Stalin starved people in Ukraine by the millions. Many Ukrainians believed the Jewish communist conspiracy that goes all the way back to 1917. So when the red army was driven out of Ukraine by the Germans circa 1941, many of the Ukrainian citizens went after the jews. All the Germans had to do was supervise the mass killings in Many cases.

There's a series on Netflix called einsatzgruppen. It's eye opening.

Stalin.. the U.S. Ally at he time... starved Ukrainians but we are their friends now :rolleyes:

[Gunny]

Stalin.. the U.S. Ally at he time... starved Ukrainians but we are their friends now :rolleyes:Again comes down to choices, on the ground in real time then.

Both my grandfathers stated after we got to Berlin we should have kept on going because only half the war against evil, totalitarian despots was won. Churchill had to grit his teeth every time the name Stalin was mentioned.

BUT, necessity dictated we needed the second front. Not to mention, The Red Army bought Europe time to amass its forces, and provided the most casualties in doing so.

Sometimes the World works in shades of gray and you have to deal with the hand you're dealt. No government I know of is completely righteous, or even close. It's always a choice of the lesser of two evils. How many wars have been started by the people of Nations as opposed to governments?

Given the circumstances that the Holdomor where 3.9 million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin, who would you fight for given no choice but choose a side? Also bearing in mind almost all of Europe/ theWest was antisemitic to begin with.

[revelarts]

Again comes down to choices, on the ground in real time then.

Both my grandfathers stated after we got to Berlin we should have kept on going because only half the war against evil, totalitarian despots was won. Churchill had to grit his teeth every time the name Stalin was mentioned.

BUT, necessity dictated we needed the second front. Not to mention, The Red Army bought Europe time to amass its forces, and provided the most casualties in doing so.

Sometimes the World works in shades of gray and you have to deal with the hand you're dealt. No government I know of is completely righteous, or even close. It's always a choice of the lesser of two evils. How many wars have been started by the people of Nations as opposed to governments?


"sometimes the World works in shades of gray" ? really?
when i try to point out that parts of the world are basically pitch black you seem to have a problem sometime.
(then you swing around and call me an Idealists in the next thread)
Somehow U.S. policies only make make it to gray for you. never really black. those are mistakes. or "real world" choices.
Please notice i said U.S. policies. not U.S. people or ALL of the gov't.



Given the circumstances that the Holdomor where 3.9 million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin, who would you fight for given no choice but choose a side? Also bearing in mind almost all of Europe/ theWest was antisemitic to begin with.

Hmm, maybe it's possible to fight both.
At the least not join with either.
Or simply get both to fight each other.

"Again comes down to choices"
There are options.
unless you're now going to tell me there was NO choice.

[Gunny]

"sometimes the World works in shades of gray" ? really?
when i try to point out that parts of the world are basically pitch black you seem to have a problem sometime.
(then you swing around and call me an Idealists in the next thread)
Somehow U.S. policies only make make it to gray for you. never really black. those are mistakes. or "real world" choices.
Please notice i said U.S. policies. not U.S. people or ALL of the gov't.



Hmm, maybe it's possible to fight both.
At the least not join with either.
Or simply get both to fight each other.

"Again comes down to choices"
There are options.
unless you're now going to tell me there was NO choice.I have to swing around from topic to idealism when you constantly jump back and forth from one to the other:poke:

Sure there was a choice and he made his. What he believed to be the lesser of two evils. Guess he could have chosen to refuse to do anything and been executed. I don't recall much prisoner-taking by either side.

Finland was a German ally for the same reason. It viewed Russia as the bigger threat.

[AHZ]

I have to swing around from topic to idealism when you constantly jump back and forth from one to the other:poke:

Sure there was a choice and he made his. What he believed to be the lesser of two evils. Guess he could have chosen to refuse to do anything and been executed. I don't recall much prisoner-taking by either side.

Finland was a German ally for the same reason. It viewed Russia as the bigger threat.


no.

your deal with evil and malfeasance has warped your perceptions of reality.

you're biased against good outcomes, being conditioned by evil insane statists.

[Gunny]

no.

your deal with evil and malfeasance has warped your perceptions of reality.

you're biased against good outcomes, being conditioned by evil insane statists.Recorded history does not need a perception of reality. You do though. I am not the topic of this thread.

[Gunny]

"sometimes the World works in shades of gray" ? really?
when i try to point out that parts of the world are basically pitch black you seem to have a problem sometime.
(then you swing around and call me an Idealists in the next thread)
Somehow U.S. policies only make make it to gray for you. never really black. those are mistakes. or "real world" choices.
Please notice i said U.S. policies. not U.S. people or ALL of the gov't.



Hmm, maybe it's possible to fight both.
At the least not join with either.
Or simply get both to fight each other.

"Again comes down to choices"
There are options.
unless you're now going to tell me there was NO choice.

The PC police made the Canadian guy resign.

[AHZ]

Recorded history does not need a perception of reality. You do though. I am not the topic of this thread.
recorded history is a perception of reality, usually rewritted by victors to hide their misdeeds.

the real truth is out there if you care to look beyond "might makes right" chimp behavior.

[Gunny]

recorded history is a perception of reality, usually rewritted by victors to hide their misdeeds.

the real truth is out there if you care to look beyond "might makes right" chimp behavior.Say goodbye to the thread.

[revelarts]

I have to swing around from topic to idealism when you constantly jump back and forth from one to the other:poke:

Sure there was a choice and he made his. What he believed to be the lesser of two evils. Guess he could have chosen to refuse to do anything and been executed. I don't recall much prisoner-taking by either side.

Finland was a German ally for the same reason. It viewed Russia as the bigger threat.

why is it that i gave you 3 options and you reply with join or "do Nothing" "lesser of 2 evils"?
Is that honest Gunny?

[Gunny]

why is it that i gave you 3 options and you reply with join or "do Nothing" "lesser of 2 evils"?
Is that honest Gunny?I wasn't aware those were option and I was required to choose one.

1st choice: Possible only if there was an underground doing such and one had access to it. I have heard of no such underground in Ukraine. You need arms, support, supplies. Provided by one side or the other. Most farmers don't think that far out of the box.

2nd choice: Choose a side or die

3d choice: They're already fighting each other. You're in the middle. Choose a side or die.

They guy probably figured he was screwed no matter what he did. His choices suck. Looks a lot like choosing between McCain and Obama or Trump and Hitlery. Lose/lose. I would hate to be in this guy's position at that time and place.

[revelarts]

I have to swing around from topic to idealism when you constantly jump back and forth from one to the other:poke:


Ok I'm thinking youre missing my points.

If you have family member who's a pissy drug addict & thief. do you mess around and say he's in the grey area.
I'd want to call it like it is. even though he carries the family name.

when you talk to him about doing better, do you want him to just a little bit less of a drug addict. maybe not steal from MOM. just from strangers. or would you point him to leaving drugs alone completely and to stop stealing and prep for a job or 2.
He will probably never be a CEO of a big firm he dreamed of in his youth, but is it crazy to think he can live up to some of his character potential?
Is that to "idealistic"?

Look, maybe he is hopeless. Maybe he's just going to overdose & die or get shot... or shot you.

But Real world, what do you try to point him towards.
Somethings to get him out of the streets, maybe a 12 step program etc..

Real world, what do you hope for for your family member?

I'm an American,
i want the best for this country, not the lessers of evils. And i won't point America in that direction.
I don't understand why we have to settle so low when so many people want the best as well.

[revelarts]

I wasn't aware those were option and I was required to choose one.

1st choice: Possible only if there was an underground doing such and one had access to it. I have heard of no such underground in Ukraine. You need arms, support, supplies. Provided by one side or the other. Most farmers don't think that far out of the box.

2nd choice: Choose a side or die

3d choice: They're already fighting each other. You're in the middle. Choose a side or die.

They guy probably figured he was screwed no matter what he did. His choices suck. Looks a lot like choosing between McCain and Obama or Trump and Hitlery. Lose/lose. I would hate to be in this guy's position at that time and place.
vote 3rd party.
if enough do they win.
the choices are not binary

[Gunny]

Ok I'm thinking youre missing my points.

If you have family member who's a pissy drug addict & thief. do you mess around and say he's in the grey area.
I'd want to call it like it is. even though he carries the family name.

when you talk to him about doing better, do you want him to just a little bit less of a drug addict. maybe not steal from MOM. just from strangers. or would you point him to leaving drugs alone completely and to stop stealing and prep for a job or 2.
He will probably never be a CEO of a big firm he dreamed of in his youth, but is it crazy to think he can live up to some of his character potential?
Is that to "idealistic"?

Look, maybe he is hopeless. Maybe he's just going to overdose & die or get shot... or shot you.

But Real world, what do you try to point him towards.
Somethings to get him out of the streets, maybe a 12 step program etc..

Real world, what do you hope for for your family member?

I'm an American i want the best for this country, not the lessers of evils. And i won't point America in that direction.
I don't understand why we have to settle so low when so many people want the best as well.

I have never disagreed with what you want.

I disagree when you try to transpose what you want with what is.

[revelarts]

I have never disagreed with what you want.

I disagree when you try to transpose what you want with what is.

Again, think you may miss my points.
I'm not transposing, i'm Proposing.

[Gunny]

Again, think you may miss my points.
I'm not transposing, i'm Proposing.Not hard to miss.

We're discussing this guy and the choices you think he had and you're suddenly talking what you want things to be instead of how things are. If what you want is not how it is, then the topic only come together when proposing change to what is to what you want. Until then, they are not the same topic.

If you are proposing something, then you need to state that, Then we can argue about what you're proposing :slap:

[revelarts]

Polish official wants Canada to extradite 98-year-old Nazi veteran
A Polish government minister said this week he had “taken steps” toward the possible extradition of Yaroslav Hunka, the 98-year-old veteran of a Waffen-SS unit who drew applause during the visit of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to Canada’s Parliament.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/27/poland-ukrainian-nazi-veteran-canada-extradition/


Wow, I guess I'm not the only one who can't seem to distinguish surviving at any cost by siding with "the lesser of 2 evils" and ...being evil.
Don't the Poles understand the 'real world'?

[NightTrain]

I don't think it's fair that Zelensky took a black eye over this. He was on a world tour after speaking at the UN, drumming up support & supplies for his wartime effort.

I think a lot of people are unaware that he himself is Jewish, so aaccusations that he's a nazi or sympathetic to nazis is pretty preposterous.

Canada cheering an actual nazi is pretty funny, really. Some staffer who has no grasp of history dug this guy up (almost literally) and Trudeau & Company didn't stop to consider who this guy had to have fought for, given that he fought against Russia in WWII. Honestly, that conundrum was the first thing that popped into my head.

Watching Trudeau squirm and then blame this on Russian disinformation (????!) was high entertainment.

[Gunny]

Polish official wants Canada to extradite 98-year-old Nazi veteran
A Polish government minister said this week he had “taken steps” toward the possible extradition of Yaroslav Hunka, the 98-year-old veteran of a Waffen-SS unit who drew applause during the visit of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to Canada’s Parliament.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/27/poland-ukrainian-nazi-veteran-canada-extradition/


Wow, I guess I'm not the only one who can't seem to distinguish surviving at any cost by siding with "the lesser of 2 evils" and ...being evil.
Don't the Poles understand the 'real world'?Because all Germans were Nazis. And all Americans support Biden:rolleyes:

If he's provably guilty of war crimes then put the 98 years old dude on trial. If he's guilty of no more than choosing to fight against the country that collectivized his and starved 4m people to death, then I disagree with going after the guy.

[revelarts]

I think a lot of folks are unaware that Z is Jewish too. I think more people really are straining not to see just how thick with Nazis influence the history & current politics are and how thick with Nazis the Ukraine military are. Any time the facts are brought up it's glossed over or denied as 'Russian propaganda'. Or lesser of 2 evils.

Even though for 10+ years before the war it was in most major US & international Press.
Now they've got a Jewish president and suddenly they aren't thick with Nazis anymore.
Really?

[Kathianne]

I think a lot of folks are unaware that Z is Jewish too. I think more people really are straining not to see just how thick with Nazis influence the history & current politics are and how thick with Nazis the Ukraine military are. Any time the facts are brought up it's glossed over or denied as 'Russian propaganda'. Or lesser of 2 evils.

Even though for 10+ years before the war it was in most major US & international Press.
Now they've got a Jewish president and suddenly they aren't thick with Nazis anymore.
Really?

I think that is due to Putin pushing they're all Nazis for so long.

[Gunny]

I think that is due to Putin pushing they're all Nazis for so long.That and not having a real grasp on the geopolitical history of Ukraine, where East meets West and how many times its been run over by one or the other. Ukraine truly is where everything comes together between Europe and Asia.

[Kathianne]

That and not having a real grasp on the geopolitical history of Ukraine, where East meets West and how many times its been run over by one or the other. Ukraine truly is where everything comes together between Europe and Asia.

I always considered Balkans where east and west clashed.

[revelarts]

I think that is due to Putin pushing they're all Nazis for so long.

Mmm, sorry Kath, I buy that as much as I buy that Putin rigged the election for Trump. I don't know why Putin gets all these superpowers for somethings.
He made the NYTimes, CNN, NBC BBC NPR AP etc write stories about and take photos and videos of Ukrainian military with NAzi symbols, ideology and connections?
Had the US govt officials saying it... Until the war broke out.

Sorry but facts are facts. The Poles seems to know it. & I suspect they have a real grasp on the history of the region concerning Nazis & Putin & Ukrainians.

[Gunny]

I always considered Balkans where east and west clashed.Sort of. The Ottoman Empire stretched as far West as the Balkans in its day. From the Baltic to the Black Seas, the Dnipro is the rough line. Nothing exact. Ukraine was caught between Europe and the Mongols, Europe and Russia. The Lithuanian-Polish Commonwealth occupied a majority of Western Ukraine for a time. That was Roman Catholic vs Orthodox Churches, and still where the Schism is.

The issue with the Balkans is Greece. They aren't Slavic, Germanic, nor Turk.

That's the short version. Jacob came home sick. Have to babysit.

[Gunny]

STREP. Babysitting from afar. He can knock on my door if he needs anything :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_dichotomy

There is no continuous line. In Ukraine, it has always been Ukraine. Ukraine itself roughly means "Borderland". Bosnia-Hercegovina is mentioned in ref. Cultural and religious difference rather than geographical.

[Gunny]

Mmm, sorry Kath, I buy that as much as I buy that Putin rigged the election for Trump. I don't know why Putin gets all these superpowers for somethings.
He made the NYTimes, CNN, NBC BBC NPR AP etc write stories about and take photos and videos of Ukrainian military with NAzi symbols, ideology and connections?
Had the US govt officials saying it... Until the war broke out.

Sorry but facts are facts. The Poles seems to know it. & I suspect they have a real grasp on the history of the region concerning Nazis & Putin & Ukrainians.So it's propaganda when it works for you but not when it doesn't?

Do US Nazis define the US, our culture and/or politics? Or are they just there because our society is free?

You keep refusing to accept the situation in Ukraine and the easily justifiable reasons Ukrainians would fight against the Soviets.

[Black Diamond]

I think a lot of folks are unaware that Z is Jewish too. I think more people really are straining not to see just how thick with Nazis influence the history & current politics are and how thick with Nazis the Ukraine military are. Any time the facts are brought up it's glossed over or denied as 'Russian propaganda'. Or lesser of 2 evils.

Even though for 10+ years before the war it was in most major US & international Press.
Now they've got a Jewish president and suddenly they aren't thick with Nazis anymore.
Really?

Yeah it kind of gives them a get out of jail free card on the issue

[Gunny]

Yeah it kind of gives them a get out of jail free card on the issue


https://www.factcheck.org/2022/03/the-facts-on-de-nazifying-ukraine/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946

[Black Diamond]

So it's propaganda when it works for you but not when it doesn't?

Do US Nazis define the US, our culture and/or politics? Or are they just there because our society is free?

You keep refusing to accept the situation in Ukraine and the easily justifiable reasons Ukrainians would fight against the Soviets.

I get why Ukrainians fought against the soviets. I think there are more nazis per capita in Ukraine than the usa or most other nations. And having a Jewish president doesn't change that.

[Black Diamond]

Because all Germans were Nazis. And all Americans support Biden:rolleyes:

If he's provably guilty of war crimes then put the 98 years old dude on trial. If he's guilty of no more than choosing to fight against the country that collectivized his and starved 4m people to death, then I disagree with going after the guy.

Question. What percentage of waffen SS officers are innocent ? I'd be quicker to agree with you if it were the wehrmacht instead of the SS.

[revelarts]

So it's propaganda when it works for you but not when it doesn't?
Not sure what you mean here.

"Putin rigged the elections!" was mainstream propaganda.
I determined that by looking at other the sources available.
and looking at the THIN to nothing evidence the MSM presented for the claim.

"Putin 'made up' all the stories about Nazis in Ukraine!" is MSM propaganda... to a point.
Russia has used it, but as far as i can tell it's based on plenty of real world evidence. evidence presented for over a decade by the MSM and from alt sources. (sources, that if i named or posted you probably wouldn't accept as legit for no good reason).



Do US Nazis define the US, our culture and/or politics? Or are they just there because our society is free
That's an interesting question. I'm not sure you want me to go down the U.S. politics, biz, Nazi connections rabbit hole.




You keep refusing to accept the situation in Ukraine and the easily justifiable reasons Ukrainians would fight against the Soviets.

I accept the position they're in.
I can accept why they would fight against the Soviets... if there were any Soviets left.
I can accept why they would fight against Russia too.

What I do NOT accept is the smoke the U.S. gov't & MSM is blowing to try and make us think we need to give a nazi infested, highly corrupt, Russian Boarder state, promised non-NATO member billions of dollars and military aid to poke Russia.
That's what I refuse to accept.

[Gunny]

Question. What percentage of waffen SS officers are innocent ?

Honestly, I do not know. How many slavs/Russians actually qualify to be SS officers? I do not remember the particulars, but I read something on Ukraine's Nazi units. Separate and unequal. Nazi Germany was sending Slavs to concentration camps same as Jews until it became necessary/convenient to use some.

Mentioned in one of my references is the concentration of Jews in Western Ukraine but not the why. Everyone was antisemitic and it was accepted World-wide. Going back as far as Catherine the Great is the one who had the Jews removed to Southwestern Ukraine and away from Moscow and Russia. Seems the beheading of King Louis the Whatever and Marie Antoinette scared the crap out of her.

The US was no better nor different. We turned a boatload of Jews away that ended up in Bergen-Belsen. How American of us:rolleyes:

With that backdrop, you've got few choices. One is fight the Russians. The other is starve or be executed or end up in a camp. You already hate the Soviets.

Not justifying anything. Just pointing out we weren't there nor facing the choices they had to. I know some high-minded folk will proclaim loudly they would throw themselves on their own funeral pyre and to that I say bullshit.

IF this guy is guilty of crimes and they can be proven, then he should face the law for his actions.

[Gunny]

Not sure what you mean here.

"Putin rigged the elections!" was mainstream propaganda.
I determined that by looking at other the sources available.
and looking at the THIN to nothing evidence the MSM presented for the claim.

"Putin 'made up' all the stories about Nazis in Ukraine!" is MSM propaganda... to a point.
Russia has used it, but as far as i can tell it's based on plenty of real world evidence. evidence presented for over a decade by the MSM and from alt sources. (sources, that if i named or posted you probably wouldn't accept as legit for no good reason).



That's an interesting question. I'm not sure you want me to go down the U.S. politics, biz, Nazi connections rabbit hole.




I accept the position they're in.
I can accept why they would fight against the Soviets... if there were any Soviets left.
I can accept why they would fight against Russia too.

What I do NOT accept is the smoke the U.S. gov't is blowing to try and make us think we need to give a nazi infested, highly corrupt, Russian Boarder state, promised non-NATO member billions of dollars and military aid to poke Russia.
That's what I refuse to accept.

Because what you don't accept is not what you label them. Hearing what you want to hear to support your position does not make it how it is.

I agree with the claim Putin's propaganda being overblown. Apparently you choose to believe the propaganda.

[Gunny]

Antifa? A fascist organization calling itself antifascist is allowed to operate with impunity in the US as it serves the left's need for brown shirts. MAGA Republicans and parents of school children are a threat, but these brown shirts are never mentioned. Never arrested. We know whose dirty work they're doing.

Do they represent the USA?

[revelarts]

Because what you don't accept is not what you label them. Hearing what you want to hear to support your position does not make it how it is.

I agree with the claim Putin's propaganda being overblown. Apparently you choose to believe the propaganda.

So which parts of my label are false?
•Nazi infested
•Highly corrupt
•Russian Boarder State
•Promised Non-NATO member

[Kathianne]

Mmm, sorry Kath, I buy that as much as I buy that Putin rigged the election for Trump. I don't know why Putin gets all these superpowers for somethings.
He made the NYTimes, CNN, NBC BBC NPR AP etc write stories about and take photos and videos of Ukrainian military with NAzi symbols, ideology and connections?
Had the US govt officials saying it... Until the war broke out.

Sorry but facts are facts. The Poles seems to know it. & I suspect they have a real grasp on the history of the region concerning Nazis & Putin & Ukrainians.

Because I remembered reading these for months

https://www.google.com/search?q=putin+calls+Ukrainians+nazis&oq=putin+calls+Ukrainians+nazis&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTExMDM1ajBqNKgCAL ACAA&client=ms-android-samsung-ga-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[revelarts]

Because I remembered reading these for months

https://www.google.com/search?q=putin+calls+Ukrainians+nazis&oq=putin+calls+Ukrainians+nazis&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTExMDM1ajBqNKgCAL ACAA&client=ms-android-samsung-ga-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

1st of all a strait google search aint going to cut it for us if we're looking to get the best picture. Remember how google does things
And if you look for all the times that "Putin said", i guess we can read it plenty.
But I never looked for all the times Putin said it. I looked for all the times AP, CNN, our Congress people, independent reporters/news crews said it who visited or lived in Ukraine.
But, Yes, the MSM reports everytime Putin says it.
And they add he's giving out "Misinformaton" & Propaganda.

But that's not where we should stop getting info is it? "Putin Said it"?
MSM/google says Putin said it so it must be a lie, We don't need to read anymore. Wipe our hands and walk away?

But if we do look farther

2014


Ignoring Ukraine’s Neo-Nazi Storm Troopers
https://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/13/ignoring-ukraines-neo-nazi-storm-troopers/
Exclusive: You might think a story about modern-day Nazi storm troopers attacking a European city without mercy would merit front-page coverage in the U.S. press, but not when the Nazi paramilitaries are fighting for the U.S.-backed Ukrainian government and are killing ethnic Russians, writes Robert Parry.By Robert Parry
The U.S.-backed Ukrainian government is knowingly sending neo-Nazi paramilitaries into eastern Ukrainian neighborhoods to attack ethnic Russians who are regarded by some of these storm troopers as “Untermenschen” or subhuman, according to Western press reports.
Recently, one eastern Ukrainian town, Marinka, fell to Ukraine’s Azov battalion as it waved the Wolfsangel flag, a symbol used by Adolf Hitler’s SS divisions in World War II. The Azov paramilitaries also attacked Donetsk, one of the remaining strongholds of ethnic Russians opposed to the Kiev regime that overthrew elected President Viktor Yanukovych last February.
https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/wolfsangel-ukraine-300x199.jpg (https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/wolfsangel-ukraine.jpg)The Wolfsangel symbol of Adolf Hitler’s SS on a banner in Ukraine.

Yet, despite this extraordinary reality modern-day Nazi storm troopers slaughtering Slavic people in eastern Ukraine the Obama administration continues to concentrate its criticism on Russia for sending a convoy of humanitarian supplies to the embattled region. Suddenly, the administration’s rhetoric about a “responsibility to protect” civilians has gone silent.
This same hypocrisy has permeated nearly everything said by the U.S. State Department and reported by the mainstream U.S. news media since the Ukraine crisis began last year. There was fawning coverage of the Maidan protesters who sought to overthrow Yanukovych and then an immediate embrace of the “legitimacy” of the regime that followed the Feb. 22 coup. As part of this one-sided U.S. narrative, reports about the key roles played by neo-Nazi activists and militias were dismissed as “Russian propaganda.”...

2015

Is America Training Neonazis in Ukraine?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-america-training-neonazis-in-ukraine
There are no doubts about the neo-Nazi and white supremacist background of the Azov Battalion, a militia that has positioned itself at the forefront (https://www.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2015/06/09/how-many-neo-nazis-is-the-u-s-backing-in-ukraine.html) of the fight against Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. As the founder and head of the battalion Andriy Biletsky once put it, (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/Europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html) “The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival.”

That Russian President Vladimir Putin and his propagandists exploit this fact, using it to build support for their aggression and to undermine the international effort to help Ukraine defend its independence, is undeniable. But knowing that, and wanting to resist that, does not resolve some very important questions about the basic facts.

What is the relationship of the U.S. government to these people? Is it training them? Might it arm them? Is this, like the Afghan war of the 1980s, one of those cases where we aid and abet the kind of monsters who eventually become our enemies? Concerns about that possibility have been growing on Capitol Hill....


Congress bans arms to Ukraine militia linked to neo-Nazis
March 27, 2018
Rebecca Kheel ---The Hill

A little-noticed provision in the 2,232-page government spending bill passed last week bans U.S. arms from going to a controversial ultranationalist militia in Ukraine that has openly accepted neo-Nazis into its ranks.

House-passed spending bills for the past three years have included a ban on U.S. aid to Ukraine from going to the Azov Battalion, but the provision was stripped out before final passage each year.

This year, though, the $1.3 trillion omnibus spending bill signed into law last week stipulates that "none of the funds made available by this act may be used to provide arms, training or other assistance to the Azov Battalion."

"White supremacy and neo-Nazism are unacceptable and have no place in our world," Rep. Ro Khanna (D-Calif.), an outspoken critic of providing lethal aid to Ukraine, said in a statement to The Hill on Tuesday. "I am very pleased that the recently passed omnibus prevents the U.S. from providing arms and training assistance to the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion fighting in Ukraine."

The United States has been aiding and training Ukrainian forces in their fight against Russian-backed separatists since 2014, and recently expanded that aid to include arms. The omnibus includes about $620.7 million in aid for Ukraine, including $420.7 million in State Department and foreign operations funds and $200 million in Pentagon funds.

The Azov Battalion was founded in 2014, and its first commander was Andriy Biletsky, who previously headed the neo-Nazi group Patriot of Ukraine. Several members of the militia, which has been integrated into the Ukrainian National Guard, are self-avowed neo-Nazis.

But a spokesman for the group has defended it, telling USA Today in 2015 that only 10 to 20 percent of recruits are neo-Nazis and that those people do not represent the official ideology of Azov....
https://khanna.house.gov/media/in-the-news/congress-bans-arms-ukraine-militia-linked-neo-nazis
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis/


"Cover Those Nazi Symbols, Please?"
The New York Times releases a small disgusting detail about reporting in Ukraine
The New York Times just released a story called “Nazi Symbols on Ukraine’s Front Lines Highlight Thorny Issues of History,” about whether or not it means anything that some Ukrainian soldiers have been photographed wearing Nazi Death’s Head or “Totenkopf” symbols. One passage stands out:

In November, during a meeting with Times reporters near the front line, a Ukrainian press officer wore a Totenkopf variation made by a company called R3ICH (pronounced “Reich”). He said he did not believe the patch was affiliated with the Nazis. A second press officer present said other journalists had asked soldiers to remove the patch before taking photographs.

The institutional obstacles to getting clear information about the war in Ukraine are formidable, from embedding rules barring journalists from entering “red zones” (and requiring escorts in “yellow” areas), to casualties undercounted by officials on both sides, to open use of planted stories, to harassment of voices who go against official messaging. Journalists asking soldiers to remove Nazi patches is a new level of insanity. With the line between propagandist and reporter all but dissolved, how long before embeds are offered NATO uniforms? Who thinks this is a good idea?
https://www.racket.news/p/cover-those-nazi-symbols-please

there's A LOT more to this
Articles like
HOW US AND UK GOVERNMENT PROPAGANDA SPECIALISTS COLLABORATED WITH NAZIS IN UKRAINE (https://www.blacklistednews.com/article/84934/how-us-and-uk-government-propaganda-specialists-collaborated-with-nazis-in.html)

maybe some people are ok with the supposed lesser of 2 evils.
but to me the gov't is simply blowing MORE WAR smoke to try & keep a percentage of the pubic onboard.

[Kathianne]

1st of all a strait google search aint going to cut it for us if we're looking to get the best picture. Remember how google does things
And if you look for all the times that "Putin said", i guess we can read it plenty.
But I never looked for all the times Putin said it. I looked for all the times AP, CNN, our Congress people, independent reporters/news crews said it who visited or lived in Ukraine.
But, Yes, the MSM reports everytime Putin says it.
And they add he's giving out "Misinformaton" & Propaganda.

But that's not where we should stop getting info is it? "Putin Said it"?
MSM/google says Putin said it so it must be a lie, We don't need to read anymore. Wipe our hands and walk away?

But if we do look farther

2014


2015





"Cover Those Nazi Symbols, Please?"
The New York Times releases a small disgusting detail about reporting in Ukraine
The New York Times just released a story called “Nazi Symbols on Ukraine’s Front Lines Highlight Thorny Issues of History,” about whether or not it means anything that some Ukrainian soldiers have been photographed wearing Nazi Death’s Head or “Totenkopf” symbols. One passage stands out:

In November, during a meeting with Times reporters near the front line, a Ukrainian press officer wore a Totenkopf variation made by a company called R3ICH (pronounced “Reich”). He said he did not believe the patch was affiliated with the Nazis. A second press officer present said other journalists had asked soldiers to remove the patch before taking photographs.

The institutional obstacles to getting clear information about the war in Ukraine are formidable, from embedding rules barring journalists from entering “red zones” (and requiring escorts in “yellow” areas), to casualties undercounted by officials on both sides, to open use of planted stories, to harassment of voices who go against official messaging. Journalists asking soldiers to remove Nazi patches is a new level of insanity. With the line between propagandist and reporter all but dissolved, how long before embeds are offered NATO uniforms? Who thinks this is a good idea?
https://www.racket.news/p/cover-those-nazi-symbols-please

there's A LOT more to this
Articles like
HOW US AND UK GOVERNMENT PROPAGANDA SPECIALISTS COLLABORATED WITH NAZIS IN UKRAINE (https://www.blacklistednews.com/article/84934/how-us-and-uk-government-propaganda-specialists-collaborated-with-nazis-in.html)

maybe some people are ok with the supposed lesser of 2 evils.
but to me the gov't is simply blowing MORE WAR smoke to try & keep a percentage of the pubic onboard.


My original point was Putin propaganda, which was NOT directed at US/West but rather Russia, Crimea, and allies as it were.

[revelarts]

Here's an AD put out by a group the war-monger/neo-con/chiken-hawk William Krystal is associated with.

https://youtu.be/NLZowlIIrkw

Does it talk about how we must defend Ukrainians Democracy and sovereignty from the mean ol Putin.
No It says "Putin is OUR Enemy", and it's CHEAP for US to hurt him by sending $$$ and Weapons to Ukrainians so they can fight FOR US. "THAT"S WHY the US must continue to support Ukraine".says the ad

At least he selling nearly EXACTLY what be believes rather than the smoke of "democracy".

Mitch McCnnelll does similar.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F3MhgYMWgAIRbqg?format=jpg&name=small
the WAR IS ABOUT JOBS!!!
Now we're talking.
maybe next time he'll just say outright 'the Military industrial Complex was getting a little hungry and this war hit's the spot real goood'.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7IQC6nXAAAROwb?format=jpg&name=small



as far as mean old Putin goes...
if you know dog doesn't want you in his yard and you send your little brother into the yard,
Is it right to JUST blame the dog?

DOZENS OF WIKILEAKS CABLES SHOW US KNEW NATO EXPANSION WAS RUSSIA'S BRIGHT RED LINE
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/dozens-wikileaks-cables-show-us-knew-nato-expansion-was-russias-bright-red-line

[revelarts]

My original point was Putin propaganda, which was NOT directed at US/West but rather Russia, Crimea, and allies as it were.

My Point is that Ukraine is infested with NAZIs.
despite what Putin says.

[Kathianne]

It's always better to have other guys die. I tend to agree that Russia was definitely going back to land grabs and using language and glorious past to justify-my oh my, Europe does this well and much of the far right want to follow in our own version of same.

Conflicts like Russian invasion of Ukraine, (let's not forget how it did start), tends to be destabilizing. Poland still feels threatened and concerned about defense: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66873495

If full war breaks out, NATO will be called in. Hoping to keep the fighting over there, with no regular US troops. If that's being neo-con, so be it.

[Kathianne]

My Point is that Ukraine is infested with NAZIs.
despite what Putin says.
Most of Europe and a growing number of Americans are Nazis, at least in being anti-Semitic.

[Kathianne]

I knew I saw something like this the other day, couldn't put an interest in it then. The conclusion is that it's more than possible, will be costly, but Poles seem to be behind the decision:

https://www.euronews.com/2023/09/06/poland-said-its-army-will-soon-be-the-strongest-in-europe-but-is-that-possible


Poland said its army will soon be the strongest in Europe. But is that possible?Members of the new voluntary Territorial Defense Troops march with Poland's national flags in a massive military parade to celebrate the Polish Army Day on 15 August, 2023.
By Giulia Carbonaro
Published on 06/09/2023 - 06:30


Through a series of major arms deals, Poland is set to establish military supremacy in continental Europe - though the high cost of this expansion is a source of concern for some experts.


If everything goes according to plan, Europe will soon have a new military superpower: Poland.


The leaders of the country’s ruling party Law & Justice (PiS) have recently announced that the country is set to have the strongest army in Europe within the next two years, thanks to the major modernisation of its existing equipment and a massive reinforcement of its troops.


The military has been one of the most important topics of discussion in Poland since the beginning of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as the country prepares for the risk of the conflict at its border spilling into its territory.


“The Polish army must be so powerful that it does not have to fight due to its strength alone,” said Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki in November last year, as the country celebrated independence from the Soviet Union.


He promised that the country would have “the most powerful land forces in Europe.”


“We want peace, and if we want that we must prepare for war - in connection with that, we are strengthening the Polish Army in contrast to those who governed until 2015,” said Defence Minister Mariusz Błaszczak.

...

[revelarts]

Most of Europe and a growing number of Americans are Nazis, at least in being anti-Semitic.
So are you saying that more Americans are becoming racist?
I know you're not saying that it's doesn't matter if they are,
or that doesn't matter if the best of our military are flying nazi flags instead of the American flag?
And literally threatening the president if he does things that that section of the military doesn't like.
Which is is/has happened in Ukraine to Zelensky according to reports.

[revelarts]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7E5nyPWsAA7VyV?format=jpg&name=small

[Kathianne]

So are you saying that more Americans are becoming racist?
I know you're not saying that it's doesn't matter if they are,
or that doesn't matter if the best of our military are flying nazi flags instead of the American flag?
And literally threatening the president if he does things that that section of the military doesn't like.
Which is is/has happened in Ukraine to Zelensky according to reports.

Actually when it comes to anti-semitism in US look to campuses and democratic party. Not certain that flying the flag or giving the salute are cool yet, but seems that some of the debunked medical experiments and such are gaining favor too.

[NightTrain]

There's really no way to know what percentage of any population is a nazi. It's a favorite go-to for accusations for those wanting shock value in a hit piece or outright propaganda.

With that said, it seems logical to me that America would have a higher incidence of nazism than a country that directly experienced the horrors of it. Sure, there will always be examples of misguided individuals who sign on for that, but I would think the overall rate in Ukraine and in Russia would be lower on average just because of what went on in the '40s.

The irony in Putin's accusations of Ukraine is that his favorite commander of Wagner, Utkin, had SS tattoos - obviously his political leanings were a bit warped. And if the leader of a mercenary outfit is a proud nazi, you can bet the farm that there's a lot more under him that are, too. Putin never wanted to talk about that, though. And he didn't need to, after shooting down the Wagner private jet full of Wagner leaders after luring them to Moscow a couple of months ago. Nazis? What nazis? :laugh:

Seriously, the fact that those idiots didn't see that coming defies belief. Putin didn't get where he is now by being an honorable gentleman.

[revelarts]

There's really no way to know what percentage of any population is a nazi. It's a favorite go-to for accusations for those wanting shock value in a hit piece or outright propaganda.

With that said, it seems logical to me that America would have a higher incidence of nazism than a country that directly experienced the horrors of it. Sure, there will always be examples of misguided individuals who sign on for that, but I would think the overall rate in Ukraine and in Russia would be lower on average just because of what went on in the '40s.

The irony in Putin's accusations of Ukraine is that his favorite commander of Wagner, Utkin, had SS tattoos - obviously his political leanings were a bit warped. And if the leader of a mercenary outfit is a proud nazi, you can bet the farm that there's a lot more under him that are, too. Putin never wanted to talk about that, though. And he didn't need to, after shooting down the Wagner private jet full of Wagner leaders after luring them to Moscow a couple of months ago. Nazis? What nazis? :laugh:

Seriously, the fact that those idiots didn't see that coming defies belief. Putin didn't get where he is now by being an honorable gentleman.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7NACAkWsAAmzxF?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7CkaSZXIAEEVau?format=jpg&name=small

[Black Diamond]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7NACAkWsAAmzxF?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7CkaSZXIAEEVau?format=jpg&name=small

Mark Hamill is a moron.

[NightTrain]

Yes, Rev, I'm fully aware that nazis existed in Ukraine in WWII, and they exist there to this day. There are nazis also present in Russia and probably every country you can name.

The supposed infestation of Ukraine is a bit preposterous, though. I can't think of a scenario where a nation of nazis would elect a Jewish man. Can you?

Then let's look at Zelensky's approval ratings - last I saw, it was 91% - 92%. Do you believe that a nation comprised of goose-stepping nazis would rally behind a Jew in such numbers?


I did not question that they do exist. I believe they do, just in vastly less quantities than Putin's propaganda machine would like you to believe.

[NightTrain]

Mark Hamill is a moron.

I couldn't agree more. He rates as high as AOC in my book.

[revelarts]

Yes, Rev, I'm fully aware that nazis existed in Ukraine in WWII, and they exist there to this day. There are nazis also present in Russia and probably every country you can name.

The supposed infestation of Ukraine is a bit preposterous, though. I can't think of a scenario where a nation of nazis would elect a Jewish man. Can you?

Then let's look at Zelensky's approval ratings - last I saw, it was 91% - 92%. Do you believe that a nation comprised of goose-stepping nazis would rally behind a Jew in such numbers?


I did not question that they do exist. I believe they do, just in vastly less quantities than Putin's propaganda machine would like you to believe.

I don't know maybe I'm off,
How many guys in your unit hung nazi flags on base, in the work areas next to the US flag?

[NightTrain]

I don't know maybe I'm off,
How many guys in your unit hung nazi flags on base, in the work areas next to the US flag?

What am I missing? I don't see a nazi flag in Hamil's post.

[Black Diamond]

What am I missing? I don't see a nazi flag in Hamil's post.

Right side of the "United 24" Pic. It's not the swastika one.

[NightTrain]

Right side of the "United 24" Pic. It's not the swastika one.

That's news to me. That's a nazi flag? There's more than one?

[Black Diamond]

That's news to me. That's a nazi flag? There's more than one?

I'd have to look up its history and origin again. It's not good.

[Black Diamond]

I'd have to look up its history and origin again. It's not good.

Assuming I can find it.

[NightTrain]

I don't know maybe I'm off,
How many guys in your unit hung nazi flags on base, in the work areas next to the US flag?

Funny you should ask... here's some US Marines with a nazi flag I found while trying to research your unfamiliar nazi flag. Those particular Marines found themselves in a bit of a shitstorm, claimed they didn't know. That SS is pretty recognizable though.

14427

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0209/Marines-Nazi-flag-was-mistaken-for-their-own

[NightTrain]

Assuming I can find it.

I'm not finding anything. Down the rabbit hole I go.

[Black Diamond]

Funny you should ask... here's some US Marines with a nazi flag I found while trying to research your unfamiliar nazi flag. Those particular Marines found themselves in a bit of a shitstorm, claimed they didn't know. That SS is pretty recognizable though.

14427

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0209/Marines-Nazi-flag-was-mistaken-for-their-own

How could they not know?

[NightTrain]

How could they not know?

I don't buy it. Everyone knows what that lightning bolt SS means.

[Black Diamond]

I'm not finding anything. Down the rabbit hole I go.

It's called the red and black flag. (I know. How original)

[fj1200]

It's called the red and black flag. (I know. How original)

Just red and black? or with that circle thing in the middle. I can't find an example of that.

[NightTrain]

It's called the red and black flag. (I know. How original)

No dice.

14428


I assume that what Rev posted is a unit flag. Guess I'll try to ID that unit. Strongly suspect that unit flag is a victim of Russian propaganda trolls doing what they do.

[Black Diamond]

No dice.

14428


I assume that what Rev posted is a unit flag. Guess I'll try to ID that unit. Strongly suspect that unit flag is a victim of Russian propaganda trolls doing what they do.
No. Here's a start.

14429

[NightTrain]

No. Here's a start.

14429


I don't see anything even close to what Rev is saying is a nazi flag, anywhere.

[Black Diamond]

They're all over in this video from 8 years ago. I have to go now

https://youtu.be/sEKQsnRGv7s?si=9Ffo59K3w9RymG5T

[Black Diamond]

I don't see anything even close to what Rev is saying is a nazi flag, anywhere.

There's no nazi flag as in the one flown in Germany from 1933-45

The red and black flag itself has a history. I'll be back later to research.

[fj1200]

They're all over in this video from 8 years ago. I have to go now

Not sure I saw any black flags, so to speak, in that video but I could have missed it. Of course the last line tried to tie the Right Sector and it's "right" militaristic movement to the Nazis and their militaristic movement but as we know the Nazis are of the left... by a lot. The Right Sector could in reality be left but it didn't go into that.

[revelarts]

BUFFALO SHOOTER WORE SAME NAZI SYMBOL AS THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY
David Sidman : May 19, 2022 Israel365News.com

Israel365 News has reported extensively about the phenomenon of neo-Nazis and Nazi ideology that has infested the Ukrainian military.

[Israel365.com] The white supremacist teenager who murdered ten people in a supermarket shooting in Buffalo, New York, donned the same "black sun" Nazi symbol that Ukraine's Azov battalion wears on their uniforms. (Screengrab image)

18-year-old Payton Gendron, claimed in a 180-page manifesto that he was "radicalized" online during the coronavirus pandemic. The self-professed white supremacist and anti-Semite added that his "research" showed a low birth rate of white people worldwide, and that the "crisis" would "ultimately result in the complete racial and cultural replacement of the European people." ...

...The NAZI Black Sun, otherwise known as the ‘Sonnenrad,' made its initial appearance in Nazi Germany during World War 2 in 1933 when Heinrich Himmler designed the central meeting location and spiritual home for the Schutzstaffel (SS) at the Wewelsburg Castle...
https://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=35312


https://www.breakingchristiannews.com/images/2022/paytongendronnazi-230-screengrab.jpg

https://www.breakingchristiannews.com/images/2022/nazis-ukraine-249-screengrab.jpg

2018
https://forward.com/opinion/416751/why-does-no-one-care-that-neo-nazis-are-gaining-power-in-ukraine/

[Gunny]

Are you saying there are Nazi's?:rolleyes:

[NightTrain]

2018
https://forward.com/opinion/416751/why-does-no-one-care-that-neo-nazis-are-gaining-power-in-ukraine/

Well.... if indeed it is a nazi symbol, it's awfully obscure. I've never seen it before and generally have a better grasp of WWII than most people.

Why wouldn't a bunch of nazis simply use that internationally recognized swastika instead of a design no one has ever heard of? Seems a bit self defeating to pass up free PR.


Beyond all that, there's the picture I gave you with US Marines posing with a nazi SS flag below the American flag. Surely you're not going to assert that the US Military, and by extension the US population is swimming with nazis because of that photo.

Right?

[Black Diamond]

Well.... if indeed it is a nazi symbol, it's awfully obscure. I've never seen it before and generally have a better grasp of WWII than most people.

Why wouldn't a bunch of nazis simply use that internationally recognized swastika instead of a design no one has ever heard of? Seems a bit self defeating to pass up free PR.


Beyond all that, there's the picture I gave you with US Marines posing with a nazi SS flag below the American flag. Surely you're not going to assert that the US Military, and by extension the US population is swimming with nazis because of that photo.

Right?

We need to get a good guess of how prevalent far right antisemitics are there. One offs don't do it.

[NightTrain]

We need to get a good guess of how prevalent far right antisemitics are there. One offs don't do it.

Given that Zelensky is rocking 91% - 92% approval by Ukrainians, we can safely assume it's single digits.

[SassyLady]

I don't buy it. Everyone knows what that lightning bolt SS means.
Dang ... I thought that design of SS stood for "Super Stud"! Especially in that photo!

[revelarts]

Well.... if indeed it is a nazi symbol, it's awfully obscure. I've never seen it before and generally have a better grasp of WWII than most people.

Why wouldn't a bunch of nazis simply use that internationally recognized swastika instead of a design no one has ever heard of? Seems a bit self defeating to pass up free PR.


Beyond all that, there's the picture I gave you with US Marines posing with a nazi SS flag below the American flag. Surely you're not going to assert that the US Military, and by extension the US population is swimming with nazis because of that photo.

Right?

OK you're aware of the history of WWII, how many NAZIs where there in Germany before Hitler took over? apx percent wise?

And if you're simply going to go off of the one metric, Zelesky's approval rating... after he's shut done "dissident" news outlets BTW... well that seems like a pretty low bar for judging the extent of the NAZI influence.

I suspect that most of the Ukrainians are NOT Nazis. But It seems the better part of the military and local militias are.
It's been reported that Zelinsky is not ALLOWED to do things that would piss them off.
He's and the legislature have been forced to back off various items because of pressure from the Asov group and the like because they have been acting as and leading the fights inside of Ukraine. As in fighting Russians AND other Ukrainians they consider out of line. like they killed so many Russian speaking Ukrainians in the Dombastk region before the Russian invasion.
And it seems NO OTHER Ukrainians, military or police has the power to reign them in.

I'm guessing hoping that the nazis in the U.S. marines don't have that kind of sway.

Also similar to the the way the U.S. & NATO used extremist muslims group like AlQueda to piss on the Russians "we've" done the same in Ukraine. Stirring up and arming and training the extremist. Because they are the ones easiest stir up to fight. and it bypasses the national/international rules.

good thing doing that's never bit us in the arse before.:rolleyes:

[NightTrain]

Well, Rev, there's a pretty great conspiracy involved and I'm kind of surprised that you've missed it.

Look up 'Little Green Men' in Crimea & Donbas. It's pretty interesting how Putin pulled all that off and it took a lot of work. Infiltration, intimidation, bogus referendums, bullshit elections, illegal annexation, followed by the coup de grace 3-day Special Military Operation to take out Kiev and install a puppet government just like Belarus to the north.

Remember Putin's speech announcing it? He was going to take out all those Nazis and Drug Addicts running the Ukrainian government and save them from themselves, like any good Samaritan would do.

I'll grant you that there were probably a few nazis running around, but nothing like Russia would have you believe. That whole 'Nazi infestation' is propaganda used to justify Putin's invasion. There's bona-fide nazis on both sides, albeit small, and if Putin was truly righteous in his reasons, he'd certainly not use nazis in his own forces.

Here's a pic of Utkin, who commanded Wagner and prior to that was a Lt. Colonel in the GRU (New KGB) - note those sporty SS tats:

14430

The whole Nazi discussion is just propaganda, imo. It makes the average Russian peasant feel like the invasion is the right thing to do - because who could be against getting rid of Nazis? Especially right next door to Russia! Sounds like a noble and just endeavor, right? And did anyone mention the Kiev government is comprised of sexually perverted druggies? Oh, my, yes. Lots of those, too.

It's cartoonishly simple and is kind of mind boggling that it's worked internally so far. But Putin's propagandists have put in a lot of money and effort to keep that spin. A bunch of the peasants know the truth, but wisely keep their mouths shut. The Siberian Gulag program still works as great as it did when Stalin invented it.

[revelarts]

Well, Rev, there's a pretty great conspiracy involved and I'm kind of surprised that you've missed it.

Look up 'Little Green Men' in Crimea & Donbas. It's pretty interesting how Putin pulled all that off and it took a lot of work. Infiltration, intimidation, bogus referendums, bullshit elections, illegal annexation, followed by the coup de grace 3-day Special Military Operation to take out Kiev and install a puppet government just like Belarus to the north.

Remember Putin's speech announcing it? He was going to take out all those Nazis and Drug Addicts running the Ukrainian government and save them from themselves, like any good Samaritan would do.

I'll grant you that there were probably a few nazis running around, but nothing like Russia would have you believe. That whole 'Nazi infestation' is propaganda used to justify Putin's invasion. There's bona-fide nazis on both sides, albeit small, and if Putin was truly righteous in his reasons, he'd certainly not use nazis in his own forces.

Here's a pic of Utkin, who commanded Wagner and prior to that was a Lt. Colonel in the GRU (New KGB) - note those sporty SS tats:



The whole Nazi discussion is just propaganda, imo. It makes the average Russian peasant feel like the invasion is the right thing to do - because who could be against getting rid of Nazis? Especially right next door to Russia! Sounds like a noble and just endeavor, right? And did anyone mention the Kiev government is comprised of sexually perverted druggies? Oh, my, yes. Lots of those, too.

It's cartoonishly simple and is kind of mind boggling that it's worked internally so far. But Putin's propagandists have put in a lot of money and effort to keep that spin. A bunch of the peasants know the truth, but wisely keep their mouths shut. The Siberian Gulag program still works as great as it did when Stalin invented it.



Here's the thing, I never said Putin was righteous or justified.
But NT he did not MAKE UP the Asov battalion man. Be real.
It's Leader said he's a Nazi and a follower of a famous Ukrainian Nazi from the past. But I guess Putin made him do that.
The U.S. congress said it would not give funds to that part of the Ukraine military effort. But I guess Putin made congress say & do that too.
And somehow reporters found out that the U.S. Military was training to those the Nazi groups... who congress said they would not fund.
ALLLLL PUTIN i'm sure.
Putin is so clever and simple.
C'mon NT why are folks avoiding reality here?

Look i don't want in overblow the Nazi situtation in Ukraine but I'm not going to pretend that it's "just propaganda" to make myself feel better about the U.S. supporting them.
it's a real issue that's not comparable to the Skin heads and Nazis in the police and military in the U.S..
It's on another level.

It's funny that you ignore everything i wrote and just assumed it' ALL PUTIN.
-I'll give you this the mark Hamil flag thing may be wrong. sorry about that. I'm slipping-

But Again it's like the left with its "PUTIN RIGGED the ELECTION for Trump!!!". Putin has superpowers man.
I'm not sure why people are willing white-wash NAZIs in order to piss on Putin.

my main points are still

I accept the position Ukraine is in. .. by the arrangement of NATO and the US.
I can accept why they would fight against the Soviets... if there were any Soviets left.
I can accept why they would fight against Russia too.

What I do NOT accept is the smoke the U.S. gov't is blowing to try and make us think we need to give a nazi infested, highly corrupt, Russian Boarder state, promised non-NATO member billions of dollars and military aid to poke Russia.
That's what I refuse to accept.

None of my labels are false.
•Nazi infested
•Highly corrupt
•Russian Boarder State
•Promised Non-NATO member

But here's a BBC News report from 2014 about NAZI's in Ukraine.
BBC controlled by Putin no doubt!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY

Max Blumenthal: US is Arming Neo-Nazis in Ukraine Feb 4, 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Uf7aooxvE

[Kathianne]

I knew I saw something like this the other day, couldn't put an interest in it then. The conclusion is that it's more than possible, will be costly, but Poles seem to be behind the decision:

https://www.euronews.com/2023/09/06/poland-said-its-army-will-soon-be-the-strongest-in-europe-but-is-that-possible


another:

https://cepa.org/article/poland-becomes-a-defense-colossus/

[revelarts]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUgKTfe-IqA

[NightTrain]

I don't trust the MSM to identify Nazis, anywhere. All throughout the Trump years to now every Trump voter was a Nazi. Remember? I could pull up a thousand articles with such silly accusations.


In the meantime, here's what Ukraine was doing today :

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-marks-82nd-anniversary-babyn-yar-killings-by-nazi-forces-2023-09-29/

Yep, today they gathered to mourn 34,000 Jews that the Nazis slaughtered in Kyiv.

This is the Jewish President :

14431

14432


Sorry, Rev, I don't believe there's a huge bunch of Nazis running around a community after suffering such atrocities. That kind of thing is not easily overlooked.

[Black Diamond]

I'm not sure I trust the msm about Ukraine either.

[revelarts]

I don't trust the MSM to identify Nazis, anywhere. All throughout the Trump years to now every Trump voter was a Nazi. Remember? I could pull up a thousand articles with such silly accusations.


In the meantime, here's what Ukraine was doing today :

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-marks-82nd-anniversary-babyn-yar-killings-by-nazi-forces-2023-09-29/

Yep, today they gathered to mourn 34,000 Jews that the Nazis slaughtered in Kyiv.

This is the Jewish President :

Sorry, Rev, I don't believe there's a huge bunch of Nazis running around a community after suffering such atrocities. That kind of thing is not easily overlooked.

Yes, as i said ...and the reports I posted said if you took the time to watch them said... that most Ukrainians are not Nazis.
BUT there is a strong contingent in the military and local "peacekeeping" militia supported by the Ukrainian Gov't and NATO.

Here's something interesting about what you posted.
IN 2016
...Ukraine’s capital, Kiev, on Thursday renamed its Soviet-era Moscow Avenue after a Russian figure accused by the Kremlin of siding with the Nazis during World War II.

Kiev’s local council decided that one of the bustling city’s main northern arteries will now honor Ukrainian nationalist Stepan Bandera (https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ukrainian-nationalists-march-in-in-honor-of-nazi-collaborator/).

The decision is in line with the push against totalitarian regimes such as the Communist Party that Ukraine launched after the February 2014 ouster of its Russian-backed leader and the decision by the new leaders to anchor the country’s ties to the West...
https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/

the article says he was "accused" by the Kemlin. point of fact he was a Nazi. It's not some wild accusation.
Look up his name for yourself.

And this newly named road, Stepan Bandera Boulevard, is the road that the Babyn-Yar-killings memorial is on where Zelinsky paid homage today.
It's like having a MLK assassination memorial site on a newly renamed Nathan Bedford Forrest Boulevard.
At the very least there's some real conflict over national ID.

But hey believe what you will. Ignore all evidence to the contrary.
I hope you are right.

[NightTrain]

Thanks for introducing Bandera, I was unaware of him until now. What unbelievably brutal times those were. Bandera hated everyone, but had a special hatred for Russians it seems.

Your question of support is valid, I'll do my best to answer it.

First, it's a true David vs. Goliath story. Putin engaged in a shameless land grab with the flimsiest of pretenses that fooled no one. He started this project in 2014 because Obama was weak and he correctly knew no one would oppose him.

Putin paused and consolidated during the Trump years because he didn't know how Trump would react. Enter Biden, and it was a green light to complete the Ukrainian project.

When Kiev was invaded, it looked bad. Real bad. As Russian air assault brigades were taking over the Kiev airport and hundreds of tanks thundered down from Belarus, estimates were about 3 days - or less - to Ukraine surrendering. It looked hopeless.

Putin had special ops hunter/killer teams actively looking for government officials in Kiev to decapitate the government.

Biden offered an air extraction to Zelensky, saying he could lead from exile, to which Zelensky famously said, "I don't need a ride. I need ammo." You have to admire that kind of unwavering courage in the face of impossible odds - and he wasn't going to survive captivity. That was a guarantee.

As the situation worsened with blow after blow of defecting corrupt military and intelligence officers who the Russians had paid off, the Ukrainians rallied and stopped the Russian armored advance, and counterattacked the airport, recapturing it. The armored Russian convoy was ambushed and sat there helplessly as they were annihilated. Hundreds of thousands Ukrainians were fleeing to Poland and other European countries, including military aged men.

I believe that had Zelensky gone along with Biden to flee the country, Ukraine would have surrendered. But his show of courage and faith in his people rallied his troops and they succeeded in throwing Russia back across the Belarus border against all odds.

This action showed the world that Russia was vastly overhyped and every observer saw a glimmer of hope. No real person had expected this. Was the vaunted Russian military a paper tiger after all?

Ukraine began counterattacking in the East, reclaiming land from the initial Russian advance, against all odds, with antique Soviet hardware.

Neighboring countries, fully aware of the fact that they'd be next to be 'denazified', began giving Ukraine anti-tank weapons and anti-air MANPADS.

Putin warned that he'd start lobbing nukes over any kind of aid, rendering the USA, France and Germany useless. As our governments wrung our hands uselessly, small European countries stepped up and correctly ignored Putin's threats and began shipping the needed weapons, which Ukraine used to great success. Britain was the first large military power to break ranks and begin giving them needed weaponry.

Germany courageously offered helmets. We fearlessly offered first aid supplies.

Ukraine liberated Kherson in the south and made great gains in the East, and finally support began to arrive as the Ukrainians showed that they COULD defeat the Russians.


Putin is trying to rebuild the USSR. He's said publicly that the fall & breakup was the greatest tragedy he could think of.

The Russian/Soviet empire has caused nothing but grief to the world for the last 120 years. Untold millions dead and countless countries manipulated and exploited to further their goals.

We're spending 5% of our military budget to supply Ukraine. No American blood is being spilled, and Ukraine isn't asking for boots on the ground - they're willing to fight on their own, and they are winning. Slowly but surely, they're winning against incredible odds.

We're giving Zelensky a flood of intelligence and military advice which is invaluable. But giving them old Abrams tanks from mothball storage and old F-16s and munitions that are approaching the end of their shelf life is also invaluable.

Ukraine is no Saint. Yes, they've had a corruption problem. Yes, they've got a handful of nazis running around. They probably remove those tags from their mattresses, too. They've got all the problems that every other nation struggles with, like our very own New Jersey Senator found with $100k gold bars stacked in his closet.

I fully appreciate the idea of America First, especially now when our own border is completely unsecured. But nothing short of removing this completely inept administration is going to change that, and that's going to be January 20th, 2025. Nothing will improve here until then.

In the meantime, 5% of our military budget is a very good deal for us. Ukraine is doing the heavy lifting, we're giving them materiel that we spend money on to dispose of anyway - that's a win/win.

And when this is all over, Ukraine will go through the necessary process of meeting Western requirements to join NATO and the EU. That will have positive international benefits to everyone except dictators plotting their evil schemes.

I think the odds are good that Russia collapses and splinters again, that possibility alone makes the investment worthwhile. This time the West will be ready for it to capitalize on it. 1991 caught everyone by surprise; that won't happen again.

We'll still have our hands full dealing with China, but that will be exponentially easier with Russia removed from play as a major power.

Anyway, that's my 3 cents.

[Gunny]

From leftwingnut Cana-duh no less. I know, I know ... Cana-duh is teeming with Nazi's too:rolleyes:


Three weeks ago Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy fired his defence minister (https://www.thestar.com/news/world/europe/ukraines-defense-minister-resigns-following-zelenskyys-announcement-of-his-replacement/article_32081f5b-2371-515e-b69a-7b120069377d.html). The guy who replaced him is named Rustem Umerov and he happens to be from the country’s Crimean Tatar minority.

All of which gave rise to this pungent headline over an analysis of the shuffle (https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/jewish-president-picks-muslim-defense-minister-ukraines-diverse-leadership-debunks-russias-nazi-slurs/): “Jewish president picks Muslim defence minister.”

For reasonable people that alone should be enough to debunk the ridiculous notion that Ukraine has a big Nazi problem. But not everyone is reasonable and unfortunately this week’s massive screw-up in Parliament, (https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/here-s-how-a-man-who-fought-for-the-nazis-got-honoured-in-the-house/article_03fe93d4-2faa-5d54-92ab-cf0da1caf8ed.html) in which a Ukrainian veteran of a Waffen SS division was lauded as a war hero, breathed new life into Moscow’s discredited narrative that its invasion of Ukraine was justified by the need to “de-Nazify” its neighbour.


One would hope that particular slur had been put to bed long ago. But no. It lives on, not only in Russian propaganda but in claims emanating from both MAGA Republicans in the U.S. and the kookier fringes of the far left. (https://www.readthemaple.com/canadian-media-is-happy-to-risk-arming-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/) Both are obsessed by the idea that Ukraine is a haven for Nazis and fascists and so isn’t worthy of support from the West.

People like that aren’t going to let the facts get in the way of a good argument. But there are facts nonetheless.

Let’s start with this one: while it’s true that Ukrainians fought in many armies during the Second World War, including in units allied with the Germans against the Soviet Union, the vast majority fought against the Nazis.

For instance — an estimated 53,000 men enlisted in the mostly Ukrainian unit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Gali cian)) that the man cheered in Parliament, Jaroslav Hunka, fought in, the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, or 1st Galician Division. Contrast those thousands with the literally millions of Ukrainians (I’ve seen authoritative estimates ranging from 4.5 million to 7 million (https://greece.mfa.gov.ua/en/news/22578-pres-reliz-ukrajina-u-drugij-svitovij-vijni-1939-1945-roku)) who served with the Soviet Red Army in the epic struggle against the German invaders. (And by the way, another 40,000 Ukrainians enlisted in the Canadian military during that war.)

After Germany was defeated, Stalin portrayed the victory as a specifically Russian accomplishment for his own domestic political purposes. But the Soviet Union was a multi-ethnic state and its non-Russian minorities (including Ukrainians) played an outsized role in beating back the Nazis.


https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/the-truth-about-nazis-in-ukraine/article_6965fa0d-65a9-5aa6-8f4b-d0cf487d23af.html

I suspect another part of the "truth" to Nazis in Ukraine is it suits the dystopian, "anti-war even when unavoidable" crowd:rolleyes:

[revelarts]

Interesting replies, i wish folks here had been as broad minded, charitable and forgiving about the idea of Muslim extremist in the U.S. and middle east.

Muslims want to kill us all. create a KAilif!
Iran wants to kill us all? And Israel?
Anyone over the past 20 years posting articles on how many Iranians citizens just want to live peace with the west? Compared to the number of muslim jihad extremist there?
Most Iranians and muslims are NOT violent extremist trying to build some Muslim kingdom.
correct?
does anyone want to add a "BUT" there?

...moving into sarcasm here....
Heck what about the Russians? Millions of them don't have problem with the U.S..

they aren't trying to take over Europe or crush America.
We Fought along side Russians to free Europe.
Many Russians love the U.S..

tut tut. i won't hear of any of this talk about Russians having bad thoughts towards the U.S. or NATO.

Even China, a billion+ people love America, and their neighbors.
they make most of our consumer goods! they are great trading partners.
I just don't see the threat expressed by some of you in other threads about them.
Most of them are NOT real communist.
We've got a few Communist in OUR Own gov't BTW, if you've forgotten. mmmmm?
And I think the number is growing.

I can't believe this idea that we need to be concerned about the vast overwhelming majority who are the good hearted peaceful citizens of Russia and China.

Conspiracy.

...end sarcasm....
....

Look i hope your collective lack of concern about the NAZI elements in the Ukrainian military & millitas are justified.
But the history of the U.S. backing "small" extremist elements in foreign countries to fight larger enemies is NOT a good one.

[revelarts]

I suspect another part of the "truth" to Nazis in Ukraine is it suits the dystopian, "anti-war even when unavoidable" crowd:rolleyes:


What's "unavoidable" exactly, in the U.S. NOT giving billions of U.S. tax $$$ and arms and Mil support to Ukraine in the war?
I'm not following here.

I thought the word of the month was.

"choices"

[NightTrain]

Interesting replies, i wish folks here had been as broad minded, charitable and forgiving about the idea of Muslim extremist in the U.S. and middle east.

Muslims want to kill us all. create a KAilif!
Iran wants to kill us all? And Israel?
Anyone over the past 20 years posting articles on how many Iranians citizens just want to live peace with the west? Compared to the number of muslim jihad extremist there?
Most Iranians and muslims are NOT violent extremist trying to build some Muslim kingdom.
correct?
does anyone want to add a "BUT" there?

...moving into sarcasm here....
Heck what about the Russians? Millions of them don't have problem with the U.S..

they aren't trying to take over Europe or crush America.
We Fought along side Russians to free Europe.
Many Russians love the U.S..

tut tut. i won't hear of any of this talk about Russians having bad thoughts towards the U.S. or NATO.

Even China, a billion+ people love America, and their neighbors.
they make most of our consumer goods! they are great trading partners.
I just don't see the threat expressed by some of you in other threads about them.
Most of them are NOT real communist.
We've got a few Communist in OUR Own gov't BTW, if you've forgotten. mmmmm?
And I think the number is growing.

I can't believe this idea that we need to be concerned about the vast overwhelming majority who are the good hearted peaceful citizens of Russia and China.

Conspiracy.

...end sarcasm....


I have to admit, that bit had me chuckling. You laid it on pretty thick and it was funny.

I have a straightforward answer to that, though.. none of us have been on the receiving end of Nazism; we have all experienced the savage brutality of Islam.

My grandfather fought in WWII and was badly wounded on Okinawa after the squad he was leading was decimated by a machine gun ambush. To the day he died, he held a burning hatred in his heart toward the Japanese.

My little brother found out the hard way when he pulled up to visit in his brand new SR5 Toyota pickup. He walked in the house just as Grandpa was looking out of his living room window to see who had arrived

"What the HELL is that shitbox doing parked in MY driveway!" He thundered, red in the face. "You get that rice burner off my property. Now!"

He made my little brother park it down the street. :laugh:

Gramps had no hatred for anyone, except for the Japanese. That was his experience - he witnessed his friends get slaughtered and personally killed a few Japanese with his bayonet and Ka-Bar & was pretty badly wounded when he charged the cave.

But you're right. It's been a while since the muzzies have committed an appalling terrorist act. We're due.

[Gunny]

What's "unavoidable" exactly, in the U.S. NOT giving billions of U.S. tax $$$ and arms and Mil support to Ukraine in the war?
I'm not following here.

I thought the word of the month was.

"choices"This war is going to be fought. I being fought. Better fought in Ukraine by Ukrainians than in a NATO country with US troops. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Ukraine tried hiding its head in the sand like you want to do and look where that got them.

You're right it's about choices. And THIS is where your idealism/desires interfere with reality. All but two European countries recognize the existential threat Putin unchecked represents, thus their response with support. Then there are people like you who refuse to look at the writing on the wall. In caps. Bold. And bright red.

[Gunny]

I have to admit, that bit had me chuckling. You laid it on pretty thick and it was funny.

I have a straightforward answer to that, though.. none of us have been on the receiving end of Nazism; we have all experienced the savage brutality of Islam.

My grandfather fought in WWII and was badly wounded on Okinawa after the squad he was leading was decimated by a machine gun ambush. To the day he died, he held a burning hatred in his heart toward the Japanese.

My little brother found out the hard way when he pulled up to visit in his brand new SR5 Toyota pickup. He walked in the house just as Grandpa was looking out of his living room window to see who had arrived

"What the HELL is that shitbox doing parked in MY driveway!" He thundered, red in the face. "You get that rice burner off my property. Now!"

He made my little brother park it down the street. :laugh:

Gramps had no hatred for anyone, except for the Japanese. That was his experience - he witnessed his friends get slaughtered and personally killed a few Japanese with his bayonet and Ka-Bar & was pretty badly wounded when he charged the cave.

But you're right. It's been a while since the muzzies have committed an appalling terrorist act. We're due.Definitely thick:rolleyes:

[revelarts]

This war is going to be fought. I being fought. Better fought in Ukraine by Ukrainians than in a NATO country with US troops. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Ukraine tried hiding its head in the sand like you want to do and look where that got them.

You're right it's about choices. And THIS is where your idealism/desires interfere with reality. All but two European countries recognize the existential threat Putin unchecked represents, thus their response with support. Then there are people like you who refuse to look at the writing on the wall. In caps. Bold. And bright red.

you might consider that your glasses are red, rather than the "writing on the wall".

I'm weary of EVERY nations EVERY terrorist being at the brink of destroying the U.S..
I don't believe it.
NATO has grown to the boarders of Russia, Ukraine had BioLabs controlled by the U.S. dotted all over the country.
The MAP ON THE WALL calls BS on anyone promoting the idea that RUSSIA has WILD expansionist goals.

ok..Wait a minute... Saddam has WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION we HAVE TOO! go fight him over there, or dooms day is here!!!.. wait what's that?
I think I just heard something in IRAN. It's Akmadinajad! "I will destroy America!." he said it It MUST BE TRUE! IRAN!! IRAN!! we have to Fear! them!! they MIGHT get a Nuke ...any day now... then were done for!!
wait wait... look look!!! KIM JUNG IL or UNN has ONE nuke!!! America & EUROPE will fall any minute !! We should have attacked them.. or had S Korea attack them... loooong ago then we'd be SAFE!
Why don't these idealist listen?! we have to kill them all ASAP!!! or we're going to DIE!!

Sorry Gunny, I don't play these Chicken Little, the Sky is Falling games anymore.
to many lies, to much HYPE.

somehow you cant see ANY danger in the NAZIs in the Ukrainian military, but Russias going to SWEEP INTO EUROPE and take back what? Germany? Poland? the UK? the U.S.. really?

What's the opposite of Idealistic?

As you've told me several times, the world is a DANGEROUS place. TODAY. and it changes. Foreign nations wise, sometimes a bit worse and sometimes a bit better.
As tragic a gut punch as it may be, if Ukraine GAVE UP the Russian speaking areas to Russia it would not be the end of the World or the end of Europe as we know it.
FINLAND just joined NATO!! that's 31 nations In NATO.
10+ have joined since the reunification of Germany.
How big does NATO have to be for folks like yourself to "feel" safe from the horrible threat of "expansionist" Russia?

Seems like your fears are OVERBLOWN. Maybe overblown by neo-con propaganda, western media and maybe a military mindset that assumes every nation is a horrible threat about to attack the U.S. or Europe if we ever blink or ever ever give up an inch.
To the point of calling others "idealist" for not seeing it through your 'every problem is a nail' lens.

Sorry, not buying the kool-aid anymore Gunny.

We disagree.

And bottom line, neither one of us can read minds or has a crystal ball to KNOW what Putin has planned but we CAN see who's actually gained the most territory... to put NATO missiles and troops pointed in one direction. We can see who put bio-weapons labs NEXT DOOR to Russia.
We know who blew up a major Russian pipeline.

I'm NOT saying it's an excuse for invasion but if anyone was being OBJECTIVE. if I were Russia I would not trust the U.S. or NATO and would secure my boarders among other things.

You have your opinion on what? i remeber someone posting about the 200-300+ year old Russian expansionist past.
Putins current dreams?
the reality is what i'm looking at.

If you've got secret plans of Putin's to take over the world, past them to me and the pentagon.
But If you're worried because You THINK you KNOW what Putin wants.
well sorry Gunny I'm not buying.
I'm still waiting for Akmadinajad to destroy America... and Israel. In the real world.

[Gunny]

you might consider that your glasses are red, rather than the "writing on the wall".

I'm weary of EVERY nations EVERY terrorist being at the brink of destroying the U.S..
I don't believe it.
NATO has grown to the boarders of Russia, Ukraine had BioLabs controlled by the U.S. dotted all over the country.
The MAP ON THE WALL calls BS on anyone promoting the idea that RUSSIA has WILD expansionist goals.

ok..Wait a minute... Saddam has WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION we HAVE TOO! go fight him over there, or dooms day is here!!!.. wait what's that?
I think I just heard something in IRAN. It's Akmadinajad! "I will destroy America!." he said it It MUST BE TRUE! IRAN!! IRAN!! we have to Fear! them!! they MIGHT get a Nuke ...any day now... then were done for!!
wait wait... look look!!! KIM JUNG IL or UNN has ONE nuke!!! America & EUROPE will fall any minute !! We should have attacked them.. or had S Korea attack them... loooong ago then we'd be SAFE!
Why don't these idealist listen?! we have to kill them all ASAP!!! or we're going to DIE!!

Sorry Gunny, I don't play these Chicken Little, the Sky is Falling games anymore.
to many lies, to much HYPE.

somehow you cant see ANY danger in the NAZIs in the Ukrainian military, but Russias going to SWEEP INTO EUROPE and take back what? Germany? Poland? the UK? the U.S.. really?

What's the opposite of Idealistic?

As you've told me several times, the world is a DANGEROUS place. TODAY. and it changes. Foreign nations wise, sometimes a bit worse and sometimes a bit better.
As tragic a gut punch as it may be, if Ukraine GAVE UP the Russian speaking areas to Russia it would not be the end of the World or the end of Europe as we know it.
FINLAND just joined NATO!! that's 31 nations In NATO.
10+ have joined since the reunification of Germany.
How big does NATO have to be for folks like yourself to "feel" safe from the horrible threat of "expansionist" Russia?

Seems like your fears are OVERBLOWN. Maybe overblown by neo-con propaganda, western media and maybe a military mindset that assumes every nation is a horrible threat about to attack the U.S. or Europe if we ever blink or ever ever give up an inch.
To the point of calling others "idealist" for not seeing it through your 'every problem is a nail' lens.

Sorry, not buying the kool-aid anymore Gunny.

We disagree.

And bottom line, neither one of us can read minds or has a crystal ball to KNOW what Putin has planned but we CAN see who's actually gained the most territory... to put NATO missiles and troops pointed in one direction. We can see who put bio-weapons labs NEXT DOOR to Russia.
We know who blew up a major Russian pipeline.

I'm NOT saying it's an excuse for invasion but if anyone was being OBJECTIVE. if I were Russia I would not trust the U.S. or NATO and would secure my boarders among other things.

You have your opinion on what? i remeber someone posting about the 200-300+ year old Russian expansionist past.
Putins current dreams?
the reality is what i'm looking at.

If you've got secret plans of Putin's to take over the world, past them to me and the pentagon.
But If you're worried because You THINK you KNOW what Putin wants.
well sorry Gunny I'm not buying.
I'm still waiting for Akmadinajad to destroy America... and Israel. In the real world.You are entitled to believe what you want, regardless facts. I'll stick with the tried and true science and history, thanks. :)