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Kathianne
10-21-2023, 03:35 AM
Is China just sitting back and waiting? The US and its people are no longer serious, what will be the price?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/biden-speaks-but-will-he-act-61fe471c?st=ybuwqfw3jmil4lf&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink


Biden Speaks, but Will He Act?Iran’s proxies are shooting at Americans without a U.S. response.
By
The Editorial Board
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Oct. 20, 2023 6:42 pm ET


President Joe Biden delivers a prime-time address to the nation about his approaches to the conflict between Israel and Hamas, humanitarian assistance in Gaza and continued support for Ukraine in their war with Russia, from the Oval Office of the White House on
President Biden on Thursday night finally told Americans the truth about a new world of threats, which he called “an inflection point.” It’s also a decisive moment for the Commander in Chief: Will Mr. Biden respond if Iran keeps attacking U.S. forces abroad? And will he build support in Congress to restore U.S. military power?


Wars in Israel and Ukraine “can seem far away,” the President said in a rare Oval Office address. “And it’s natural to ask: Why does this matter to America?” But “history has taught us that when terrorists don’t pay a price for their terror, when dictators don’t pay a price for their aggression, they cause more chaos and death and more destruction,” and the threats to America increase. Vladimir Putin, Mr. Biden noted, views the Baltic countries in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization as rogue Russian provinces. He won’t stop at Ukraine.




Give Mr. Biden credit for making this case directly to the American public. He ducked talking about Ukraine for 20 months, reserving his few remarks for foreign capitals or international meetings. That became untenable after the Oct. 7 attack on Israel. Thursday’s address included the usual bromides about democracy, but the current moment is about building hard power and the will to use it.


Mr. Biden was straightforward that prevailing in both Israel and Ukraine is “vital for America’s national security.” He correctly noted that Iran is supporting Hamas and Russia’s invasion, though he could have told Americans more about Russia and Iran’s deepening relationship.


Iranian military personnel have trained Russians in Crimea on drones. The Russians appear to be furnishing training jets for the Iranian military. The two are working in tandem to push U.S. forces out of Syria. This axis of animosity is a coordinated effort to crush U.S. allies and establish themselves as dominant regional powers.


Mr. Biden included a line about holding Iran “accountable,” but the President hasn’t so far. He didn’t mention attacks this week on U.S. forces in the Middle East. Iran’s proxies will continue to take shots as long as the American response is timid, and the risk of dead Americans is real.


The core problem is the decline of American deterrence. The President has sent two carrier strike groups and fighter aircraft to the region. But Tehran is still testing whether Mr. Biden is willing to use them. One issue is Mr. Biden’s frail delivery, which may figure into the calculation of adversaries. But a country manages a crisis with the President it has, for better or worse.


A failure to respond to Iran’s provocations would broadcast that America lacks the will to defend itself. Mr. Biden failed to deter Mr. Putin from invading Ukraine after the Afghanistan fiasco, and a defeat in the Middle East would echo with China in the Pacific.


The larger project is rebuilding the U.S. as the arsenal of deterrence, and Mr. Biden’s more than $100 billion funding request is a start. The package includes about $14 billion for Israel, including help for air defenses as Israel burns through Iron Dome interceptors.


The Administration wants $61 billion for Ukraine, and isolationist voices in both parties will resist. But much of the request is marked for the U.S. defense industrial base—that is, increasing U.S. military capacity. The funding includes replenishing U.S. weapons stocks and expanding ammunition lines.


That is also essential for deterring the Chinese Communist Party from striking Taiwan. Mr. Biden wants $3.4 billion to boost U.S. submarine readiness and production, an American edge over Beijing’s forces. The U.S. currently can’t build enough boats to meet its own needs while also selling hulls to the Australians as part of the important Aukus agreement.


But the $7 billion total for Pacific priorities is too meager. Congress can fill out that request into a real plan to build more long-range missiles and three attack submarines a year to hit the needed 66 hulls in the U.S. Navy, from 49 now.


***
Mr. Biden’s request deserves bipartisan support, but he will get more from Republicans if he faces the reality that he can’t have both more military power and ever-more welfare and green-energy subsidies. He should choose, and now is the time for guns over butter.


Americans are receiving an education in what the world looks like when U.S. deterrence erodes, and rebuilding that power and will should be the top bipartisan priority in Washington. Americans grow weary of the costs of being the “essential nation,” as Mr. Biden called the U.S. on Thursday evening. But the alternative is unfolding in Israel, Europe and Africa, and the U.S. needs to prepare for the worse that may be coming.

revelarts
10-21-2023, 10:41 AM
If the U.S decided not to give Israel & Ukraine ANYMORE money or any troops.
(while U.S Arms dealers continued to sell to them whatever they wanted).

And we let Iran freely trade food medical supplies and other goods without hassling them.

What do you think would happen to the U.S.?
What do think would happen to the middle east & Europe?

Kathianne
10-21-2023, 10:46 AM
If the U.S decided not to give Israel & Ukraine ANYMORE money or any troops.
(while U.S Arms dealers continued to sell to them whatever they wanted).

And we let Iran freely trade food medical supplies and other goods without hassling them.

What do you think would happen to the U.S.?
What do think would happen to the middle east & Europe?

Pretty certain that Iran would use their money on supplying Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRG, etc. They would not be providing food, medical supplies, etc., any more than they do now.

So, what do you think Iran would do if US allowed Iran to wipe Israel out of existence. Do you think they'd become the peaceful country, no longer needing/wanting nuclear weapons?

revelarts
10-21-2023, 10:54 AM
Pretty certain that Iran would use their money on supplying Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRG, etc. They would not be providing food, medical supplies, etc., any more than they do now.

So, what do you think Iran would do if US allowed Iran to wipe Israel out of existence. Do you think they'd become the peaceful country, no longer needing/wanting nuclear weapons?

I don't believe Iran is capable of wiping Israel off the map. with or without U.S. help.

Kathianne
10-21-2023, 10:56 AM
I don't believe Iran is capable of wiping Israel off the map. with or without U.S. help.

Assume they are. Every bit as relevant as your question to me. Which I answered.

Gunny
10-21-2023, 11:03 AM
Is China just sitting back and waiting? The US and its people are no longer serious, what will be the price?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/biden-speaks-but-will-he-act-61fe471c?st=ybuwqfw3jmil4lf&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalinkBetter late than never addressing the elephant in the room that is industry.

We will pay a far heavier price than we should trying to avoid the inevitable.

Gunny
10-21-2023, 11:09 AM
Assume they are. Every bit as relevant as your question to me. Which I answered. Iran is not hard-testing for no reason. There's a difference between possessing the ability to engage in global nuclear war and dropping 1 or 2 nukes regionally; which, would wipe Israel off the map, literally.

We're going to have to fight this war. Just a matter of when and on whose terms. Whether or not we are prepared. Iran, Russia and China are not going to go away nor be denied.

Kathianne
10-21-2023, 11:11 AM
Iran is not hard-testing for no reason. There's a difference between possessing the ability to engage in global nuclear war and dropping 1 or 2 nukes regionally; which, would wipe Israel off the map, literally.

We're going to have to fight this war. Just a matter of when and on whose terms. Whether or not we are prepared. Iran, Russia and China are not going to go away nor be denied.

That is what I presumed. I do want to hear Rev's pov too.

revelarts
10-21-2023, 11:23 AM
Assume they are. Every bit as relevant as your question to me. Which I answered.
Why should I assume that? I don't believe they are.
It's my understanding recently that Iran has more troops to field and more missiles but Israel has better missiles and more aircraft and ships and the threat of many READY nukes.
I don't think Iran wants to play that game.


But kath you didn't answer the question of what would happen to the U.S. or Europe if we ceased funding Israel & Ukraine?

Gunny
10-21-2023, 11:25 AM
Why should I assume that? I don't believe they are.
It's my understanding recently that Iran has more troops to field and more missiles but Israel has better missiles and more aircraft and ships and the threat of many READY nukes.
I don't think Iran wants to play that game.


But kath you didn't answer the question of what would happen to the U.S. or Europe if we ceased funding Israel & Ukraine?Both countries would be gone.

Your view of Iran is naive and uninformed.

revelarts
10-21-2023, 11:25 AM
Iran is not hard-testing for no reason. There's a difference between possessing the ability to engage in global nuclear war and dropping 1 or 2 nukes regionally; which, would wipe Israel off the map, literally.

We're going to have to fight this war. Just a matter of when and on whose terms. Whether or not we are prepared. Iran, Russia and China are not going to go away nor be denied.

"We" don't "HAVE TO" do jack.
You know that.
It seems you and others WANT TO.

Kathianne
10-21-2023, 11:25 AM
Why should I assume that? I don't believe they are.
It's my understanding recently that Iran has more troops to field and more missiles but Israel has better missiles and more aircraft and ships and the threat of many READY nukes.
I don't think Iran wants to play that game.


But kath you didn't answer the question of what would happen to the U.S. or Europe if we ceased funding Israel & Ukraine?

If Iran acted as I assume, there would be a religious war in the ME, as there was for centuries before. Without Israel, they are each others enemy.

Gunny
10-21-2023, 11:28 AM
"We" don't "HAVE TO" do jack.
You know that.
It seems you and others WANT TO.You're right. We can sit on our fat, spolied asses staring at cloud formations while REAL bad actors take everything they want and eventually come for us. Then you have nowhere to hide. Not to mention we would have no economy left long before then. Not the spoiled little rich kid economy we lament over.

You are wrong. You are THE epitome of the saying "All that evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing". You need to get your head out of the sand.

revelarts
10-21-2023, 11:36 AM
Both countries would be gone.

Your view of Iran is naive and uninformed.

Iran has had ample time and opportunity to attack Israel since 1976.
yet somehow all these prediction from folks like yourself who claim to know better have not come to pass. Even after we fought a proxy war with them via Iraq.
Seems you've bought the neo-con line about everyone ELSE is on the brink of attacking us and our friends "if we don't do something".

I'm not sure why you and the neo-cons think everyone else has a hard on to go to war? when in the pass 30+ years it's the U.S. that's been flying all over the world "preventively striking", drone striking willy nilly across the world, holding ground illegally in Syria, overturning gov't in Libya or turning a blind eye to places like Yemen were "our Allies" the Saudis have been attacking them. Funding and arming certain 'good' terrorist groups.

All for peace, freedom and democracy of course.:rolleyes:
As if all that war is making us more loved and less of a target of retaliation.

But IRAN is about to attack Israel any minute now!
What are your FEARS based on Gunny?

Gunny
10-21-2023, 12:22 PM
Iran has had ample time and opportunity to attack Israel since 1976.
yet somehow all these prediction from folks like yourself who claim to know better have not come to pass. Even after we fought a proxy war with them via Iraq.
Seems you've bought the neo-con line about everyone ELSE is on the brink of attacking us and our friends "if we don't do something".

I'm not sure why you and the neo-cons think everyone else has a hard on to go to war? when in the pass 30+ years it's the U.S. that's been flying all over the world "preventively striking", drone striking willy nilly across the world, holding ground illegally in Syria, overturning gov't in Libya or turning a blind eye to places like Yemen were "our Allies" the Saudis have been attacking them. Funding and arming certain 'good' terrorist groups.

All for peace, freedom and democracy of course.:rolleyes:
As if all that war is making us more loved and less of a target of retaliation.

But IRAN is about to attack Israel any minute now!
What are your FEARS based on Gunny?

Same old shit. Try to put anyone who disagrees with you to defending concocted bullshit.

Iran's STATED goal is to destroy Israel and the US. Everything it has done is in preparation to achieve that goal. Intelligent people find it prudent to perhaps preempt such notions rather than wait for an ICBM to fly up their asses to do something about it:rolleyes:

One doesn't have to be afraid to not be stupid:rolleyes:

Kathianne
10-21-2023, 04:52 PM
revelarts

Not perfect, but thought worth a look:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2023/10/20/why_the_civilized_world_must_destroy_hamas_149938. html




Why Israel Must Destroy Hamas
COMMENTARY
By Yinon WeissOctober 20, 2023
Why Israel Must Destroy HamasAP
In his NYT Opinion article, Thomas Friedman attempted to make a case for why Israel should not invade Gaza. He states that forgoing a Gaza invasion will “… give Israel and its allies time to think through how to build — with Palestinians — a legitimate alternative to Hamas.” This implies that the last four decades have not been enough time to think this through, and that somehow a little more time will finally succeed in peacefully ridding the world of a well-armed totalitarian terrorist group whose mission is to kill Jews.


To Mr. Friedman I would pose the following question: How many Jewish civilians does Hamas need to torture and murder to justify its full destruction? Is it 10,000 Jews? A million Jews? Six million Jews? Is there any number which would justify Israel’s complete destruction of Hamas in self-defense?


To put in U.S. population terms, what Hamas did was equivalent to invading the United States and killing or wounding over 150,000 American civilians while dragging over 5,000 citizens a few miles across the border. Would anyone seriously argue the United States should not go across the border to completely destroy such a barbaric enemy? Israel must destroy Hamas not out of anger or even out of revenge, but to restore deterrence in the Middle East and ironically, to pave a path for a long-lasting peace with Palestinians, who also suffer under Hamas’ rule in one of the most complex political conflicts in the world.


Those who oppose an invasion of Gaza see it as just another bloody military escalation. However, the world changed on Oct 7, and such thinking is trapped in the pre-Oct. 7 mindset. It has been 78 years since a Western country has completely destroyed an enemy force. Every war fought in or by the West since 1945 has been an elective political engagement – a war to contain or repel, a war to enact regime change, a war to gain territory or an advantage, but never a war to destroy one’s enemy. It has not been since 1945 that an enemy was entirely and irrefutably defeated. It has been so long that many people, rank and file and leaders alike, forget that such a war is even a strategic option. I am not one to downplay risk or quickly advocate for any war, let alone total war. As a U.S. combat veteran, I have seen the horrors of war up close, and like many veterans, I have been against virtually all military interventions of the last 15 years. However, when your neighbor ceases being a manageable threat and instead enters your house and kills and rapes your family, you can no longer rely on bigger fences and brainstorming sessions to unwind the situation – the evil force must be removed.


John Arquilla, a retired professor of strategy at the Naval Postgraduate School, wrote, “In today’s world, whatever happens on the battlefield can be overturned in the information realm, so the battle of the story matters as much as the battle on the ground.” This is wrong. Not everything that happens on the battlefield can be overturned in the information realm. It doesn’t matter how many Germans would have had TikTok or Twitter in April 1945, the final result of the war and the destruction of Nazi Germany would have been just as absolute.


The Battle of Gaza will not be like Fallujah and Ramadi, as those were tactical engagements, not fought as an end-game. The Battle of Gaza should be more like the 1945 Battle of Berlin in which the Allies sought to utterly destroy the entire Nazi regime, fighting down to the last man and last yard of Hitler’s bunker. The casualties were high, but that was the cost to rid the world of Nazis and ensure they could not return. In 1946 a Jew could walk freely down the streets of Berlin, where just two years earlier it would have meant immediate death. Israel will have achieved a similar complete destruction of Hamas when a Jew can freely walk down the streets of Gaza City, just like Israeli Arabs can now freely walk down the streets of Tel Aviv. That is when one will know that Hamas has been completely and utterly destroyed.


To those who say it cannot be done, they may still be using the old playbook of endless wars and limited objectives. I would highlight that many bigger, tougher, and better equipped enemies have been destroyed throughout history. If Israel cannot destroy an enemy that invaded its country and is now cut off from reinforcements and trapped in a 25 by 5-mile strip, then what is the point of having a military? If Israel follows Prime Minister Netanyahu’s claim that they will destroy Hamas down to the last member, whereover they operate, Israel can achieve this success. Israel must do its best to minimize civilian casualties, and any civilians serving as human shields will very quickly figure out that being close to Hamas is not a good idea – Hamas for the first time may find themselves isolated from the Palestinian population.


While wars always bring unintended consequences, so does inaction. Israel has no better option than to destroy Hamas and restore a balance of deterrence in the Middle East. Currently terrorist groups are playing by the old playbook: rounds of escalation slowly bleeding the enemy and ensuring perpetual terror. If Hamas is fully destroyed, terrorist groups will think more than twice whether they wish to invite their own permanent demise, and such knowledge of assured destruction may ironically and finally set the region on a path of peace for Jews and Palestinians alike for the next 100 years.


Yinon Weiss is a retired U.S. Army Special Forces lieutenant colonel. He was born in Israel and trained with the Israeli Defense Forces while serving in the U.S. military.

revelarts
10-21-2023, 06:47 PM
"To Mr. Friedman I would pose the following question:
How many Jewish civilians does Hamas need to torture and murder to justify its full destruction? Is it 10,000 Jews?
A million Jews? Six million Jews?
Is there any number which would justify Israel’s complete destruction of Hamas in self-defense?"


Those are great questions. I've got questions that seems MUST follow that.
How many Palestinian civilians does Israel need to dislocate & kill to ensure it's safety?
Is it 10,000 Palestinians? A million Palestinians? Six million Palestinians? All of them?
Is there any number which would ensure Israel’s complete safety from Hamas in "self-defense"?


If the one question is valid so is the other.

At what point is the killing ENOUGH?
these kind of questions should be on the table as they talk about PEACE.
unless we're just honestly OK with near genocide.."for safety".



How many kkk & neo-Nazi members have to kill jews in the U.S. before we kill all the KKK and Neo Nazi members in the U.S.?
And if they live in towns that fly confederate and nazi flags obviously those towns harbor the same racist hate for Jews.
Therefore their "civilian" status must be questioned.
And if the kkk/NeoNazis hide out in hospitals or churches oh well unfortunately there will be collateral damage.
BTW Some of those towns have voted in known and admitted KKK/NeoNazis.
How many Jews have to die before we wipe them ALL out?