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View Full Version : Depravity Can't be Truth, can it?



darin
10-15-2007, 07:15 PM
The entire message will be available for podcast next week (http://www.lighthouse-cc.org/home/subscribe-to-our-podcast) - these are my notes.

What Humans would LIKE to believe:

At the core, we're all basically Good
Humans are, by nature good, peaceful, and loving. But we have a sinful nature which taints everything we do. No matter how good our actions or intentions, we are sinners.
God's Family includes EVERYONE
Even 'good, moral folk' will die in their sins.
God is more concerned with Sincerity than truth.
Sincerity has NEVER turned a falsehood into a truth. Many folk believe God will 'understand' if somebody doesn't choose Christ, yet follows their faith religiously and faithfully. As an example of when 'sincerity' is ultimately useless - Pilots are trained to fly via instruments. Instruments give the truth, despite one's feelings. Occasionally a pilot may disregard his instruments and follow his gut feeling - sincerely, into the side of a mountain. While he HONESTLY believed he was doing the right thing, ultimately his sincerity only resulted in being sincerely dead.


What is True and confirmed both by the Bible and by our own Experience: (Ephesians 2:1-10) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:1-10&version=31)


Depravity = the corruption that extends to every part of man's nature and therefore makes it impossible to please a righteous God. See Romans 8:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:8&version=31)

Three Main Ideas in Ephesians 2:1-10:

1. Without Jesus we are all spiritually dead. We are by nature unable to discern spiritual truth and are separated from God.
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Practical Application of this Idea:

Even Good and Moral people need Jesus (John 3, John 14).
It's foolish to expect non-christians to think like Christians.
Stop getting torqued off everytime the ACLU or Judges or Schools or people on DP.com say something which doesn't line up with Spiritual teaching. It's their nature to say such things.

1 Corinthians 5:12: What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside (the church)."

Non-Christians aren't enemies and shouldn't be treated like they are.
We have all seen the folk standing on street corners holding their signs "God hates Sinners!" (the infamous "God Hates Fags", etc). Those folk are clearly missing the boat - they are NOT living in and with the Spirit of God, but are only acting out based on 'human' (not divine) instructions.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 - 24And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.


2. The world's most dominant influence is Satan.Ephesians 2:1-2 (Contemporary English Version):
1In the past you were dead because you sinned and fought against God. 2You followed the ways of this world and obeyed the devil. He rules the world, and his spirit has power over everyone who doesn't obey God.

1 John 5:19: We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

2 Corinthians 4:4: The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God

Acts 26 17b-18: I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.


Satan's main task is NOT to make you "evil": His main task is to keep you dead. Almost all cults have had high moral standards. There's a church near us which borders on a cult. The members are VERY 'good people'. They take the standards of living set forth by the Bible and they ADD to them. The woman dress plainly, and in dresses, Then men are always in nice shirts and slacks. Even their little cult-kids are dressed to the nines. They forsake all caffeine, alcohol, make-up - many things you and I take as a given. However high their standards of dress, speech, and conduct, they will NOT find God based on those. Satan uses high standards to keep you from Christ. You say things like "look how GOOD I am to have (enter philanthropic activity or gesture or act of kindness, goodness)!" and "I'm not perfect, but I'm MUCH better than others around me."

Practical Application: If I want to think CLEARLY, I'd better think Biblically.

When society tells us something - anything - such as "It's perfectly NORMAL and GOOD to have sex outside of marriage. It harms nobody, and sex is GOOD!", understand Sex IS good, but ONLY in context with God's plan for sex set forth in the bible. Christians should interpret the ideas of our world through the wisdom of the bible.


3. When it comes to salvation, ALL the credit belongs to God.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Practical Application: If I know ALL the credit goes to God, then my Spirituality will be demonstrated in humility and obedience to God.

Immanuel
10-15-2007, 07:33 PM
:clap:

I couldn't have said it better.

Immie

diuretic
10-15-2007, 08:55 PM
Most of that is contestable.

April15
10-15-2007, 08:59 PM
Most of that is contestable.detestable.

Immanuel
10-15-2007, 09:05 PM
detestable.

May I ask WHY you think that was detestable?

Is it simply that you do not like religion, faith, Christians or what have you?

Were you trying to make a joke?

Or am I missing something here?

I'm just asking, because I haven't been here long and I can't understand the hatred you seem to have. You seem like a pleasant person on non-religion related posts, but put any kind of religion into a thread and you become... well, I wanted to use "detestable" as a joke, but I'm not sure you would understand I was only kidding... aggressively mean?

Immie

diuretic
10-15-2007, 09:06 PM
detestable.

Irresistible.

Much of it is contestable because it's basically a composition of statements of faith, of personal belief, of values and not objective facts. As a collection of value statements it's fine, no criticism, but as presentations of facts it's not fine.

diuretic
10-15-2007, 09:09 PM
Contestable, despicable, irresistible....Supertramp "The Logical Song" is going to be bouncing around in my mind for hours.

April15
10-15-2007, 09:11 PM
May I ask WHY you think that was detestable?

Is it simply that you do not like religion, faith, Christians or what have you?

Were you trying to make a joke?

Or am I missing something here?

I'm just asking, because I haven't been here long and I can't understand the hatred you seem to have. You seem like a pleasant person on non-religion related posts, but put any kind of religion into a thread and you become... well, I wanted to use "detestable" as a joke, but I'm not sure you would understand I was only kidding... aggressively mean?

Immie

Religions are a fraud on the world. It is my position to make it known so the people of the world get rid of it before religions get rid of humans.
The only war that had a valid reason was the trojan as it was about a queen. The rest of the wars have been about ideas and conquest. Most of the oppression in the world is done for religious reasons either for or against.
The other is mind control for the profit of a few. Recent examples are Mother terressa's questioning of her faith and Christ asking why his father had forsaken him at the crucifixion.

Immanuel
10-15-2007, 09:17 PM
Religions are a fraud on the world. It is my position to make it known so the people of the world get rid of it before religions get rid of humans.
The only war that had a valid reason was the trojan as it was about a queen. The rest of the wars have been about ideas and conquest. Most of the oppression in the world is done for religious reasons either for or against.
The other is mind control for the profit of a few. Recent examples are Mother terressa's questioning of her faith and Christ asking why his father had forsaken him at the crucifixion.

Well, we are all entitled to our opinions. :)

Thanks for clueing me in.

You asked me, yesterday I think, if the Passion of Christ had his question to God about foresaking him in it. That didn't make sense to me and still doesn't. Can you explain what significance that has to you?

Immie

darin
10-15-2007, 09:23 PM
Okay - there are lots of available empty threads waiting for "April15's thoughts about religion in general".

If you have specific direct comment about my notes, please address them. If not - again, start your own thread. :)

82Marine89
10-15-2007, 09:33 PM
Religions are a fraud on the world. It is my position to make it known so the people of the world get rid of it before religions get rid of humans.
The only war that had a valid reason was the trojan as it was about a queen. The rest of the wars have been about ideas and conquest. Most of the oppression in the world is done for religious reasons either for or against.
The other is mind control for the profit of a few. Recent examples are Mother terressa's questioning of her faith and Christ asking why his father had forsaken him at the crucifixion.

They were fighting about queers back then also? :poke:

diuretic
10-15-2007, 09:36 PM
At the core, we're all basically Good

No we're not. "Good" and "bad" are descriptors rooted in culture and are relative.


God's Family includes EVERYONE

As a statement of belief, fine.


God is more concerned with Sincerity than truth

As a statement of belief, fine.


What is True and confirmed both by the Bible and by our own Experience

As a statement of belief, fine.


Depravity = the corruption that extends to every part of man's nature and therefore makes it impossible to please a righteous God.

"Depravity" is a value judgement.



Three Main Ideas in Ephesians 2:1-10:

As statements of belief, fine.



Practical Application: If I want to think CLEARLY, I'd better think Biblically

No, think logically.


Practical Application: If I know ALL the credit goes to God, then my Spirituality will be demonstrated in humility and obedience to God.

As a statement of belief, fine.

BoogyMan
10-15-2007, 09:50 PM
I love it Diuretic, you speak a lot about opinion and about how what DMP posted was his opinion, and then you try to back that statement up with........your opinion.

That is just a precious kind of irony.

darin
10-15-2007, 09:56 PM
No we're not. "Good" and "bad" are descriptors rooted in culture and are relative.

As a statement of belief, fine.




As a statement of belief, fine.

As a statement of belief, fine.



As a statement of belief, fine.


As a statement of belief, fine.



As a statement of belief, fine.

As a statement of belief, fine.



"Depravity" is a value judgment.


another statement of belief, fine.


As statements of belief, fine.


As a statement of belief, fine.



No, think logically.


Biblically = logically



As a statement of belief, fine.

As a statement of belief, fine.

:D

You dismiss because it's easier than dealing with truth, isn't it Diur?

:cheers2:

diuretic
10-15-2007, 10:24 PM
I love it Diuretic, you speak a lot about opinion and about how what DMP posted was his opinion, and then you try to back that statement up with........your opinion.

That is just a precious kind of irony.

You'e not that thick so I think you missed the point. If you can add something then please do but if you want to stay on the sidelines remember that you're just a spectator.

diuretic
10-15-2007, 10:26 PM
You dismiss because it's easier than dealing with truth, isn't it Diur?

:cheers2:

Not at all. I haven't dismissed anything, just acknowledged where the statement is rooted in belief, that's all. Simply because you - or anyone else for that matter - say something is the truth doesn't make it so. I'm not coming down on belief, only where a statement of belief or faith is asserted, without evidence, as being objective truth, that's all.

diuretic
10-15-2007, 10:31 PM
Now, does anyone want to actually stick to the point or are we just going to let this thread slide off into the usual mudslinging?

BoogyMan
10-15-2007, 10:33 PM
You'e not that thick so I think you missed the point. If you can add something then please do but if you want to stay on the sidelines remember that you're just a spectator.

Pointing out that your statement was hypocritical is in no way dancing the white line D. Your dismissal of DMPs commentary as opinion or belief was essentially based on opinion and belief. :D

I wasn't mudslinging, simply pointing out a glaring issue with the line of argumentation chosen.

Cheers. :coffee:

actsnoblemartin
10-15-2007, 10:36 PM
so stalin, mao, hitler, those were all about religion.

The majority of terrorism in the world is commited by muslims yet, even getting rid of all religions wont get rid of conflict, anger, and hatred, we would just find someone else to blame or hate based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, or any other excuse we could find.

he is short, kill him!

more people have been killed in the name of secularism then religion, check the 20th century




Religions are a fraud on the world. It is my position to make it known so the people of the world get rid of it before religions get rid of humans.
The only war that had a valid reason was the trojan as it was about a queen. The rest of the wars have been about ideas and conquest. Most of the oppression in the world is done for religious reasons either for or against.
The other is mind control for the profit of a few. Recent examples are Mother terressa's questioning of her faith and Christ asking why his father had forsaken him at the crucifixion.

diuretic
10-15-2007, 10:37 PM
Pointing out that your statement was hypocritical is in no way dancing the white line D. Your dismissal of DMPs commentary as opinion or belief was essentially based on opinion and belief. :D

Cheers. :coffee:

Moi? Hypocritical???? :laugh2:

How can I be a hypocrite? I accept that someone can make a statement that is one of belief. My value system tells me that people have the right to make statements of their belief. But I refuse to accept someone asserting a belief claim as a truth claim.

Hypocritical? Non. Cantankerous? Oui.

I wasn' canning DMP's statement of belief, merely quibbling over the statements presented as truth. But now I'm repeating myself. If someone can put out one of those beliefs and tell me how they can be seen as the truth I will run up the white flag gladly. :salute:

PostmodernProphet
10-15-2007, 10:41 PM
detestable.

predictable....

diuretic
10-15-2007, 10:59 PM
There it goes again..........


Now watch what you say
Or they'll be calling you a radical
A liberal, oh fanatical, criminal
Oh won't you sign up your name
We'd like to feel you're
Acceptable, respectable, oh presentable, a vegetable

PostmodernProphet
10-16-2007, 05:42 AM
There it goes again..........

???....what did you expect....you entered into a person's statement of belief simply to argue that you didn't believe it.....

if, for example, I wish to discuss the finer understandings of the concept of the Trinity, the conversation obviously gets derailed if folks jump in and shout "there is no God, so why bother".....you could just let people discuss their beliefs without constantly reminding us you don't believe.....

diuretic
10-16-2007, 05:51 AM
???....what did you expect....you entered into a person's statement of belief simply to argue that you didn't believe it.....

if, for example, I wish to discuss the finer understandings of the concept of the Trinity, the conversation obviously gets derailed if folks jump in and shout "there is no God, so why bother".....you could just let people discuss their beliefs without constantly reminding us you don't believe.....

Sorry, I need to explain, I was referring to the exchange of one-word ideas which I'd mentioned earlier. The staccato exchange put me in mind of Supertramp's "Logical Song" with the Acceptable, respectable, oh presentable, a vegetable riff that runs through it.

When it comes to discussion of the finer understandings of theology I'm with you. Non-believers like me are being simply rude to hop in and throw a "all religion is bullshit" bomb. It's unnecessary and it's very impolite.