World history question that came to mind...

[revelarts]

Here's a World history question that came to my mind as I look at some the the threads here... new & old.

I'm not sure of the answer(s), at least in the way the question came to my mind.

the question is this.
How many empires fell via majors wars with enemies vs general slow collapse/decline?

And when empires fall, what major changes happen to the lifestyles of the people in those empires?

Trying to piece answers together in my head I don't have enough info for a good picture.
Outside of the major changes for those elites in leadership.

Off hand it seems "revolutions" are more regularly traumatic for the people in empires than being conquered, or collapse.
but again, my world history education is to sketchy here.

[fj1200]

Define "empire."

[Gunny]

Most civilizations collapse due to decline. Just like ours is. When people put themselves and their selfish desires above the survival of the Nation and any common thread is lost due to internal hatred, they just fall apart to be picked off a little at a time by the hungry scavengers that have been watching and waiting.

[revelarts]

Define "empire."


empire
https://www.britannica.com/topic/empire-political-science
political science

Empire, major political unit in which the metropolis,
or single sovereign authority, exercises control over territory of great extent
or a number of territories or peoples through formal annexations
or various forms of informal domination.

[fj1200]

empire
https://www.britannica.com/topic/empire-political-science
political science

Empire, major political unit in which the metropolis,
or single sovereign authority, exercises control over territory of great extent
or a number of territories or peoples through formal annexations
or various forms of informal domination.

British, Spanish, Ottoman, various Chinese dynasties, Persian, Babylonian, Assyrian... The US empire apparently ended in 1946 with the independence of the Phillipines. Wikipedia has what looks to be a list at least a hundred long.

And yes, the people always seem to suffer the most.

[revelarts]

British, Spanish, Ottoman, various Chinese dynasties, Persian, Babylonian, Assyrian... The US empire apparently ended in 1946 with the independence of the Phillipines. Wikipedias.

1946?:D:rolleyes:;) If you say so.

[Gunny]

1946?:D:rolleyes:;) If you say so.In terms of US territorial conquest, as it fits your definition, that is quite correct. Decline doesn't happen in one day but it does start.

[Kathianne]

In terms of US territorial conquest, as it fits your definition, that is quite correct. Decline doesn't happen in one day but it does start.

Indeed. Empires do not fall at peak, but during decline. US has apologized about winning wars forever. They've capped it off by refusing to declare was, just going by fiat. How's that been working out?

[Gunny]

Indeed. Empires do not fall at peak, but during decline. US has apologized about winning wars forever. They've capped it off by refusing to declare was, just going by fiat. How's that been working out?



So well that we're about to get called out. East China Sea, ME, N Korea, Iran, Europe. While the West rested on its laurels hiding behind the US's guns, the losers went back to the drawing board. All the main players have been fighting these same wars, by one name or cause or another, for centuries. We win one fight and think the war is over and go soft.

[fj1200]

1946?:D:rolleyes:;) If you say so.

I don't say so. Wikipedia said so. Your definition may vary. Then it gets to the point of your inquiry.

[revelarts]

I don't say so. Wikipedia said so. Your definition may vary. Then it gets to the point of your inquiry.

Wikipedia says so.
you posted it.
Are saying you don't believe that it ended in 1946?
If you believe Wikipedia own it. You said it.

The Britannica definition draws the line a bit broader than wikipedias's.
Seems pretty obvious to me that after 1946 the US influence grew rather than shrank.
Overtly & Covertly, NATO, Germany, Japan, Philippines, South America, the middle east
Only the Chinese & Soviets weren't practically under the overt or covert domination of the US.
After the USSR fell we were/are the lone "superpower" in the world. With bases and ships all over the world "protecting" the current system based on the us dollar.
1946 doesn't make sense to me.
Some may not like the term "empire" but seems to me the shoe fits .

[Gunny]

Wikipedia says so.
you posted it.
Are saying you don't believe that it ended in 1946?
If you believe Wikipedia own it. You said it.

The Britannica definition draws the line a bit broader than wikipedias's.
Seems pretty obvious to me that after 1946 the US influence grew rather than shrank.
Overtly & Covertly, NATO, Germany, Japan, Philippines, South America, the middle east
Only the Chinese & Soviets weren't practically under the overt or covert domination of the US.
After the USSR fell we were/are the lone "superpower" in the world. With bases and ships all over the world "protecting" the current system based on the us dollar.
1946 doesn't make sense to me.
Some may not like the term "empire" but seems to me the shoe fits .

Don't forget that we're evil:rolleyes:

[Black Diamond]

Gunny. Taking good and evil out of it, (i want troops in Afghanistan permanently and the world can't afford to lose taiwan) when you have troops in 100+ countries how is that not an empire?

[revelarts]

Don't forget that we're evil:rolleyes:

Of course not, the U.S. has never done any wrong.. evah, evah.
There's only 2 choices. good & noble or evil & sick.


But sometimes I wonder if maybe countries could be a mix.

[Black Diamond]

Define "empire."

Some say the Yankees qualify

[fj1200]

Wikipedia says so.
you posted it.
Are saying you don't believe that it ended in 1946?
If you believe Wikipedia own it. You said it.

The Britannica definition draws the line a bit broader than wikipedias's.
Seems pretty obvious to me that after 1946 the US influence grew rather than shrank.
Overtly & Covertly, NATO, Germany, Japan, Philippines, South America, the middle east
Only the Chinese & Soviets weren't practically under the overt or covert domination of the US.
After the USSR fell we were/are the lone "superpower" in the world. With bases and ships all over the world "protecting" the current system based on the us dollar.
1946 doesn't make sense to me.
Some may not like the term "empire" but seems to me the shoe fits .

I care not a whit about the definition of empire except as it relates to what you're trying to get to. You seem to want the US to fit a definition of empire.

[revelarts]

I care not a whit about the definition of empire except as it relates to what you're trying to get to. You seem to want the US to fit a definition of empire.

Yes, the U.S. is an empire.
It's just a statement of reality.
If we read about it in a world history book from Lithuania, I suspect that's what it'd be called.

The questions I asked are, what I was getting at.

If Empires fall mostly via conquest or decline?
& the fate of the average people at the decline & fall of empires?

[Gunny]

@Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30). Taking good and evil out of it, (i want troops in Afghanistan permanently and the world can't afford to lose taiwan) when you have troops in 100+ countries how is that not an empire?I don't recall stating the US is or is not an "empire".

I responded to Rev's question regarding the fate of empires. I further stated the US is in decline. FJ picked as good a date as any and away we go down the rabbit hole arguing "when".

Empires fall when they go into decline. Doesn't happen in a day. There is truth to both opinions as to "when", depending on one's focal point. We in fact have done little to attain and a lot more to maintain since WWII. Hungry people build empires. Fat people watch them crumble. We've been fat for a long time while stupidity has stolen the show.

"When" to me is second fiddle to the chickens coming home to roost now for trying to rest on our laurels since the end of WWII

[Gunny]

Yes, the U.S. is an empire.
It's just a statement of reality.
If we read about it in a world history book from Lithuania, I suspect that's what it'd be called.

The questions I asked are, what I was getting at.

If Empires fall mostly via conquest or decline?
& the fate of the average people at the decline & fall of empires?

Your question was answered.

The fate of the "average people" is determined by who succeeds the empire. Looks like we got a bunch of pussies with big mouths taking of the US. Few if any want to destroy the US. They want to control it. The German Empire/Weimar Republic and the resulting aftermath appear a good example of what's happening to the US.

If you're asking can Joe Average who is affected little by government hide out in his basement and maybe not be bothered, cowards and sheep usually survive regime change They just kiss a different ass.

[fj1200]

Yes, the U.S. is an empire.
It's just a statement of reality.
If we read about it in a world history book from Lithuania, I suspect that's what it'd be called.

The questions I asked are, what I was getting at.

If Empires fall mostly via conquest or decline?
& the fate of the average people at the decline & fall of empires?

I'm sure someone has done a study.

[Kathianne]

I'm sure someone has done a study.
Made me look:

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/world-history/ancient-medieval/classical-states-and-empires/a/rise-and-fall-of-empires



https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/whp-origins/era-4-regional/41-systems-collapse-betaa/a/read-empires-fall-beta

https://www.vaia.com/en-us/explanations/history/modern-world-history/decline-of-empires/

[fj1200]

Made me look:

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/world-history/ancient-medieval/classical-states-and-empires/a/rise-and-fall-of-empires



https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/whp-origins/era-4-regional/41-systems-collapse-betaa/a/read-empires-fall-beta

https://www.vaia.com/en-us/explanations/history/modern-world-history/decline-of-empires/

Many a tangled web... This question raised reminds me of a clip of that great historian Rick Steves ;) talking about some village somewhere that would have it announced to them, "you are now French," and then eventually, "you are now British," as they went about their daily lives.

[Gunny]

Many a tangled web... This question raised reminds me of a clip of that great historian Rick Steves ;) talking about some village somewhere that would have it announced to them, "you are now French," and then eventually, "you are now British," as they went about their daily lives.

Interesting take. What always comes to my mind is Vietnam. You're a poor rice farmer and that's what you know. Go to the 'ville every so often to hang out with other rice farmers. Meantime, China, France, N Vietnam, South Vietnam and finally the US have been traipsing back and forth across your paddy blowing each other up. Stealing your rice as "taxes" when they aren't blowing up your paddy. They've all got their high-minded ideas about what you're supposed to think and don't care who they have to kill or destroy to ensure you do.

All you're thinking is if they'd quit blowing up my rice paddy and killing my kids we could eat. Doesn't matter who's doing it at the rice farmer level.