The Fourth Commandment

[Yurt]

So, I am talking with a family member about this Sabbath, the fourth commandment. They made a very good argument for the proposition that the Sabbath commandment is still in effect and that the sunday worship day is and was solely brought about through the catholic church. I told em to go pound sand. They said the catholic church actually admits to changing the day, in their diaries or something.

Is the fourth commandment still valid?

[darin]

I think I'd need to know if you consider 'going to church' as 'keeping a day holy'.

Going to church does NOT keep ANYTHING holy. Pastors are in church all the time, and look at the mess they get into sometimes.

[BoogyMan]

The Sabbath day has never changed, it is Saturday.

Where in the New Testament does it ever call on you to keep the sabbath? Acts 20:7 gives an apostolic example of the gathering on the first day of the week, which was not the Jewish sabbath. In making their arguments for sabbath keeping do they also argue for the continuance of animal sacrifices? If not, why not?

[JohnDoe]

The Sabbath day has never changed, it is Saturday.

Where in the New Testament does it ever call on you to keep the sabbath? Acts 20:7 gives an apostolic example of the gathering on the first day of the week, which was not the Jewish sabbath. In making their arguments for sabbath keeping do they also argue for the continuance of animal sacrifices? If not, why not?are animal sacrafices part of the 10 commandments?

no!

so, how is that an argument boogy?

do we or should we, as Christians throw out all of the 10 commandments? Is this what you are trying to say? ...if they are not mentioned in the new testament? i am uncertain? please explain!!!

jd

[BoogyMan]

are animal sacrafices part of the 10 commandments?

no!

so, how is that an argument boogy?

do we or should we, as Christians throw out all of the 10 commandments? Is this what you are trying to say? ...if they are not mentioned in the new testament? i am uncertain? please explain!!!

jd

My point (which I apparently did not explain clearly enough) was that sabbath keeping is not commanded in the New Testament. We have apostolic example of gathering on the first day of the week for worship.

We know by scripture that the old law has been nailed to the cross. Col 2:13-15

We also know that those trying to live by the old law must keep it perfectly in order to be right which would include the sacrifices. Galatians chapters 2 and 3.

There are nine of the original ten commandments listed again in the NT, sabbath keeping is the one that has not been brought into the NT law.

[manu1959]

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy....

i do ... i play golf .....

[diuretic]

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy....

i do ... i play golf .....

But that's no excuse for swearing on the Sabbath :laugh2:

[PostmodernProphet]

The Sabbath day has never changed, it is Saturday.


and how do you propose to prove that the day we call Saturday is the same day of the week that Moses proclaimed as Sabbath?......

[PostmodernProphet]

My point (which I apparently did not explain clearly enough) was that sabbath keeping is not commanded in the New Testament.


you seem to raise this point about once a month....it mystifies me why you believe this to be true....if you are right, why did Jesus not mention it when he said ""The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."....I mean, he could easily have said "Oh by the way, that Sabbath business?......We're gonna chuck that"........

[Immanuel]

Not to get nit-picky but I thought "Remember The Sabbath Day keeping it Holy", was the Third Commandment and "Honor your Father and Mother" was the fourth?

I have heard there are two different numbering systems on the 10 Commandments. Are you sure, Yurt, that the Sabbath is the fourth? Was that simply an error on your part or is it actually fourth in your faith's numbering system?

Just curious, that is why I am asking.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

Not to get nit-picky but I thought "Remember The Sabbath Day keeping it Holy", was the Third Commandment and "Honor your Father and Mother" was the fourth?



depends on whether you use the Jewish version, the RC/Lutheran version, or the version used by most other protestants.....

[BoogyMan]

you seem to raise this point about once a month....it mystifies me why you believe this to be true....if you are right, why did Jesus not mention it when he said ""The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."....I mean, he could easily have said "Oh by the way, that Sabbath business?......We're gonna chuck that"........

I raised it as it is germane to the discussion.

Since you don't seem to be interested in posting the verse references I will do it for you. Your quotation comes from Mark 2:27 and it clearly points out, since he was talking to the Pharisees who were trying to make an issue of Christ allowing his disciples to pick some grain on the Sabbath, that the Sabbath day was meant as a service to the people not the other way around. Since his kingdom had not come yet as he had not ascended into heaven, your point is unfortunately based on very little.

Christ mentioned it as the Pharisees were trying to trap him with it, pure and simple. You should actually read the whole of chapter 2 for important context and you will see what I am speaking of.

[darin]

Can somebody please define what 'keeping the day holy' means?

Until that's established, there's nothing to discuss.

What makes a day 'holy' - more precisely, what are things somebody does to let the world know they are keeping a day particularly holy? What IS Holy?

[JohnDoe]

Can somebody please define what 'keeping the day holy' means?

Until that's established, there's nothing to discuss.

What makes a day 'holy' - more precisely, what are things somebody does to let the world know they are keeping a day particularly holy? What IS Holy?A day of Rest is what I would presume, no working to make money(white collar and blue collar setting of today) or to advance one's living, like farming.... THIS is purely my opinion of what it means... God rested on the 7th day and we are to do the same. I don't know if that means one has to go to church or not? I know christians surely try to make it sound this way, and jews have their rules of no cooking and stuff, and no helping someone in need becasue it might be considered "work", but Christ did reprimand them for this interpretation.

jd

[darin]

A day of Rest is what I would presume, no working to make money(white collar and blue collar setting of today) or to advance one's living, like farming.... THIS is purely my opinion of what it means... God rested on the 7th day and we are to do the same. I don't know if that means one has to go to church or not? I know christians surely try to make it sound this way, and jews have their rules of no cooking and stuff, and no helping someone in need because it might be considered "work", but Christ did reprimand them for this interpretation.

jd

In that case, people in every religion would be keeping god's commandments eh? MOST faiths practice those things.

In fact most non-believers work FIVE days and rest TWO! :)

[Immanuel]

Can somebody please define what 'keeping the day holy' means?

Until that's established, there's nothing to discuss.

What makes a day 'holy' - more precisely, what are things somebody does to let the world know they are keeping a day particularly holy? What IS Holy?

The Lord says, 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

He tells us right there what it means to keep the Sabbath Day Holy. That is the Law. Given to us by God for a purpose just as he gave the laws about what foods are clean to eat and what are not. The issue comes with how we interpret the Law. Some feel it means we should not do any work taking the above passage literally, while others might go to the point of saying that includes playing golf or football. Others take it to the extreme that even walking is considered work and must therefore be avoided in order to obey this commandment.

Personally, I think it was given to us by God in order to show us that we are in fact sinners with the secondary benefit of teaching us that we need to rest our souls. God did not nullify this Law with the New Testament but he did cover our sins of disobeying it. We cannot be saved by the Law. We are condemned by it. Only Christ can save us from our sins.

Immie

[GW in Ohio]

I live in a middle class neighborhood...all families. There are only one or two families in my neighborhood that go to church on Sunday. The rest sleep in, work on their lawns, or play music.

The thing that really gets me is the remnants of the blue laws that only recently have been repealed. It used to be that you couldn't buy beer on Sunday until 1:00 pm.

When I tried to fathom the thinking of the legislators on that one, the only thing I could come up with was, they must have been afraid that if they let people buy beer on Sunday morning that they'd get drunk and not come to church.

Or else they'd show up at church drunk.

[PostmodernProphet]

I raised it as it is germane to the discussion.

Since you don't seem to be interested in posting the verse references I will do it for you. Your quotation comes from Mark 2:27 and it clearly points out, since he was talking to the Pharisees who were trying to make an issue of Christ allowing his disciples to pick some grain on the Sabbath, that the Sabbath day was meant as a service to the people not the other way around. Since his kingdom had not come yet as he had not ascended into heaven, your point is unfortunately based on very little.

Christ mentioned it as the Pharisees were trying to trap him with it, pure and simple. You should actually read the whole of chapter 2 for important context and you will see what I am speaking of.



that the Sabbath day was meant as a service to the people not the other way around

how does that make it different from any other commandment.....they were all put in place for our benefit


Since his kingdom had not come yet as he had not ascended into heaven, your point is unfortunately based on very little.


????....even if it were true that his kingdom didn't happen until he ascended into heaven, are you thinking that "kingdom" came as a surprise to him?.....he spent his entire time on earth speaking about "kingdom".....if you want to talk about a point based on very little, consider your point that somehow the 4th commandment got lifted out of the 10 and discarded........where do you find anything to support such an idea?


Can somebody please define what 'keeping the day holy' means?

Until that's established, there's nothing to discuss.

What makes a day 'holy' - more precisely, what are things somebody does to let the world know they are keeping a day particularly holy? What IS Holy?


I think it's more than just a day of rest....it's a reminder to set aside a regular time to think about God, rather than just ourselves.....it's not about "us".......


Personally, I think it was given to us by God in order to show us that we are in fact sinners with the secondary benefit of teaching us that we need to rest our souls. God did not nullify this Law with the New Testament but he did cover our sins of disobeying it. We cannot be saved by the Law. We are condemned by it. Only Christ can save us from our sins.


we aren't condemned by the law any more than we are saved by following it....we are condemned by the sin of our origin, as human beings who would have been just as quick to snatch the apple as Adam and Eve did if we thought it would make us equals with God....

the Bible tells us explicitly why God gave the law....Deut 4: 5 "See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? "
They were never about US, they were about God......

[JohnDoe]

I live in a middle class neighborhood...all families. There are only one or two families in my neighborhood that go to church on Sunday. The rest sleep in, work on their lawns, or play music.

The thing that really gets me is the remnants of the blue laws that only recently have been repealed. It used to be that you couldn't buy beer on Sunday until 1:00 pm.

When I tried to fathom the thinking of the legislators on that one, the only thing I could come up with was, they must have been afraid that if they let people buy beer on Sunday morning that they'd get drunk and not come to church.

Or else they'd show up at church drunk.The government or each state has the right to govern alcohol any way they wish since prohibition was repealed. We can see this with each state's rules and regs, who can get licenced to sell, how many can get licenced, the zoning for alcohol sales not being near a school, and in some states, I beliebe it is michigan, the State allows no alcohol sold in the state that was not purchased from the state's liquor stash...

Reasons for not selling alcohol on any specific holiday or on Sundays as some states or towns have held on to, can also be for the town's own benefit....they do not have to have extra police on duty for the rowdiness that alcohol can attribute to, or more cops on the road looking for drunks driving or more cops on the road to protect liquor stores from being robbed and a number of things that cost the tax payer's money...

I lived in a city in youth that was completely dry, every single day of the week, and still is dry, near 20 years later, Ocean City, NJ!!!! We would have to drive over the bridge, to Somer's Point Circle Liquor store to get any. And I will forever remember the name of that "store"....lol.

[darin]

Personally, I think it was given to us by God in order to show us that we are in fact sinners with the secondary benefit of teaching us that we need to rest our souls. God did not nullify this Law with the New Testament but he did cover our sins of disobeying it. We cannot be saved by the Law. We are condemned by it. Only Christ can save us from our sins.

Immie

But we're not sinners when we accept Christ. We lose our sinful nature; stop needing to be reminded of our past. God didn't nullify the law - Christ fulfilled the law. :)

[Immanuel]

But we're not sinners when we accept Christ. We lose our sinful nature; stop needing to be reminded of our past. God didn't nullify the law - Christ fulfilled the law. :)

Ever here the saying "sinner and saint"?

You're still a sinner until you stand in front of Christ and he stamps, "Sentence Paid in Full" on your conviction documents or whatever they are called. If that were not true then you would never have to worry about sinning again, not even once. In fact, since Christ had already chosen you, you would never have sinned even once. :D But cheer up, as a chosen one, you are guilt free. ;)

Immie

[Monkeybone]

I live in a middle class neighborhood...all families. There are only one or two families in my neighborhood that go to church on Sunday. The rest sleep in, work on their lawns, or play music.

The thing that really gets me is the remnants of the blue laws that only recently have been repealed. It used to be that you couldn't buy beer on Sunday until 1:00 pm.

When I tried to fathom the thinking of the legislators on that one, the only thing I could come up with was, they must have been afraid that if they let people buy beer on Sunday morning that they'd get drunk and not come to church.

Or else they'd show up at church drunk.

we still can't buy beer in sundays.. boooooo!

[darin]

Ever here the saying "sinner and saint"?

You're still a sinner until you stand in front of Christ and he stamps, "Sentence Paid in Full" on your conviction documents or whatever they are called. If that were not true then you would never have to worry about sinning again, not even once. In fact, since Christ had already chosen you, you would never have sinned even once. :D But cheer up, as a chosen one, you are guilt free. ;)

Immie

If that were the case we'd have NO access to God before hand. When we've accepted Christ's sacrifice, God sees us as 'clean' - 'pure' - which is why we have audience w/ him; not needing any other to stand in between.

Christ has only chosen me because I've accepted Him. If I hadn't, he wouldn't. ;)

[Classact]

we still can't buy beer in sundays.. boooooo!During the French revolution they created a new calendar to confuse Christians with a ten day week. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar The people were in revolt against the church because the government and the church were taxing them to death. The point is whether the day of the week is incorrectly recorded or not is regardless as long as it is the recurring day Christians recognize.

[BoogyMan]

how does that make it different from any other commandment.....they were all put in place for our benefit

????....even if it were true that his kingdom didn't happen until he ascended into heaven, are you thinking that "kingdom" came as a surprise to him?.....he spent his entire time on earth speaking about "kingdom".....if you want to talk about a point based on very little, consider your point that somehow the 4th commandment got lifted out of the 10 and discarded........where do you find anything to support such an idea?



I think it's more than just a day of rest....it's a reminder to set aside a regular time to think about God, rather than just ourselves.....it's not about "us".......



we aren't condemned by the law any more than we are saved by following it....we are condemned by the sin of our origin, as human beings who would have been just as quick to snatch the apple as Adam and Eve did if we thought it would make us equals with God....

the Bible tells us explicitly why God gave the law....Deut 4: 5 "See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? "
They were never about US, they were about God......

Let me ask you pmp, since you obviously believe that the Old Law is still in effect. Do you follow the feasts as instructed in the OT? Do you also make sacrifices?

Read carefully the teaching of Colossians 2:14-16

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

That covers my point pretty clearly.

[Immanuel]

Christ has only chosen me because I've accepted Him. If I hadn't, he wouldn't. ;)

Then you DO believe in salvation by works!

Your dependence on your acceptance of him is nothing short of works salvation and completely nullifies Ephesians 2:8-9.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Then you DO believe in salvation by works!

Your dependence on your acceptance of him is nothing short of works salvation and completely nullifies Ephesians 2:8-9.

Immie

Do you not have to knock for the door to be opened?

or even ask------?

[Immanuel]

Do you not have to knock for the door to be opened?

or even ask------?

Not accoding to Ephesians 2:8-9.

Matthew 7 and Luke 11 are teachings on prayer to my understanding. This is especially clear in Luke 11. It does not necessarily apply to begging God for forgiveness in order to attain one's salvation. Rather, ask God to heal your infirmities and in faith that will be accomplished or ask God to "move that mountain" and in faith it will be done.

I'm no theologian, but I believe all good things have been done for me through Christ. I am saved by the Grace of God alone. If I am saved by my "knocking on the door" first then the death of Christ was meaningless. If I am saved or not saved by "accepting Christ" whatever that may be then Christ's death was meaningless.

We cannot accept Christ unless he has first chosen us.

Immie

[darin]

Then you DO believe in salvation by works!

Your dependence on your acceptance of him is nothing short of works salvation and completely nullifies Ephesians 2:8-9.

Immie

if you call 'accepting' and 'believing' = 'works' then sure. Silly, but sure.

[BoogyMan]

Not accoding to Ephesians 2:8-9.

Matthew 7 and Luke 11 are teachings on prayer to my understanding. This is especially clear in Luke 11. It does not necessarily apply to begging God for forgiveness in order to attain one's salvation. Rather, ask God to heal your infirmities and in faith that will be accomplished or ask God to "move that mountain" and in faith it will be done.

I'm no theologian, but I believe all good things have been done for me through Christ. I am saved by the Grace of God alone. If I am saved by my "knocking on the door" first then the death of Christ was meaningless. If I am saved or not saved by "accepting Christ" whatever that may be then Christ's death was meaningless.

We cannot accept Christ unless he has first chosen us.

Immie

Faith alone won't get you there Immie.

Consider James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

also consider James 2:18-20 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

also consider James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

You must be a man of faith AND works.

[Immanuel]

Faith alone won't get you there Immie.

Consider James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

also consider James 2:18-20 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

also consider James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

You must be a man of faith AND works.

Your works are the fruit of your faith.

In other words, we do good works not because we want to be saved, but we do good words because we are saved. That is what James is teaching here.

Immie

[darin]

We cannot accept Christ unless he has first chosen us.

Immie


that is an absolute lie. :( Horrible doctrine there.

[BoogyMan]

Your works are the fruit of your faith.

In other words, we do good works not because we want to be saved, but we do good words because we are saved. That is what James is teaching here.

Immie

You would be egregiously wrong with that comment Immie. The comments from James speak of justification being from faith AND works.

We are to be obedient to God as clearly pointed out in Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

We MUST do God's will or we will not be acceptable to him.

[JohnDoe]

that is an absolute lie. :( Horrible doctrine there.
But isn't there some passage in the Bible that states that
God knew us before we were born? And another passage that mentions our names being writen in the Book of life before we were even born? And don't Christians use this to speak out against abortion and claiming the baby in gestation is equal to a full human? And if this were not the case would babies killed inside the womb have no chance of seeing God because they never had a chance to do what you are saying is their part, to accept the Word, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in order to be saved?

jd

[JohnDoe]

You would be wrong egregiously wrong with that comment Immie. The comments from James speak of justification being from faith AND works.

We are to be obedient to God as clearly pointed out in Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

We MUST do God's will or we will not be acceptable to him.
Then why was Jesus our sacraficial Lamb? What did he die for, if we get to heaven by our works, following God's word? It is my understanding that there is no religion on earth, other than Christianity, that you can be saved without fear of falling short of the glory of God. Christ was the Lamb, whose blood WAS SHED for our sins and sins to come....no? His death is what washed us clean, no?

Gosh, If all we had to do was follow the Law, (and the Law that you said earlier did not have to be followed I might add) then what makes you as a Christian, any different than Jews or Muslims?

Maybe I am just misunderstand this?

jd

[PostmodernProphet]

Let me ask you pmp, since you obviously believe that the Old Law is still in effect. Do you follow the feasts as instructed in the OT? Do you also make sacrifices?


I assume you are aware of the diffferences between the Levitical codes and the Ten Commandments?......Christianity teaches that Christ's act releases us from the Levitical codes.....however, he specifically stated that the Ten Commandments are still in place.....he was quite emphatic about it, in fact, stating that NONE of it shall be taken away....I think that speaks directly to your attempt to take away #4.....

[BoogyMan]

I assume you are aware of the diffferences between the Levitical codes and the Ten Commandments?......Christianity teaches that Christ's act releases us from the Levitical codes.....however, he specifically stated that the Ten Commandments are still in place.....he was quite emphatic about it, in fact, stating that NONE of it shall be taken away....I think that speaks directly to your attempt to take away #4.....

Back up the claim that the original 10 commandments are still in place with scripture PMP. Once you post your evidence we can discuss.

The OT scriptures are there as a "schoolmaster" to point us to christ. (Gal 3:24)

[PostmodernProphet]

You would be egregiously wrong with that comment Immie. The comments from James speak of justification being from faith AND works.


??...Boogy, the church debated the contrasts between James and the other apostles, particularly Peter, John, and Paul about the issue of works/faith for hundreds of years.....the Church's conclusion, which is consistently that of most Protestant religions is that salvation comes only from faith....a layman's interpretation of "faith without works is dead" is that we are saved by faith, can you guess what you get from 'dead' faith.....nothing.....

it isn't that you must have faith PLUS works, it's that if you don't have works, you are lying to yourself about faith.....

[BoogyMan]

??...Boogy, the church debated the contrasts between James and the other apostles, particularly Peter, John, and Paul about the issue of works/faith for hundreds of years.....the Church's conclusion, which is consistently that of most Protestant religions is that salvation comes only from faith....a layman's interpretation of "faith without works is dead" is that we are saved by faith, can you guess what you get from 'dead' faith.....nothing.....

it isn't that you must have faith PLUS works, it's that if you don't have works, you are lying to yourself about faith.....

No, read the scriptures PMP, they speak of justification by faith and works. Justification PMP. The implication is clear. Also, since you obviously didn't read the previous post I will give it to you again with regard to Sabbath keeping.

Read carefully the teaching of Colossians 2:14-16

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[darin]

But isn't there some passage in the Bible that states that
God knew us before we were born? And another passage that mentions our names being writen in the Book of life before we were even born? And don't Christians use this to speak out against abortion and claiming the baby in gestation is equal to a full human? And if this were not the case would babies killed inside the womb have no chance of seeing God because they never had a chance to do what you are saying is their part, to accept the Word, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in order to be saved?

jd



Foreknowledge is not predestination. BECAUSE Christ knows, he has chosen. Because he's not bound by 'time' he's already THERE at that day. Because he knows who is there, he's chosen us and set us apart. Because he knows our choices.

Babies? Babies are sinless.

[PostmodernProphet]

Back up the claim that the original 10 commandments are still in place with scripture PMP. Once you post your evidence we can discuss.


simple enough

Matthew 12:28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.


Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind is the Hebrew summary of the first table of the commandments while Love your neighbor as yourself is the summary of the second table. By stating this Jesus was reaffirming the entire ten......

[PostmodernProphet]

what you seem to be confused about, Boogy, is the difference between the commandments being some kind of standard by which our salvation is measured and the commandments being God's will for our actions.....

Colossians and many other places in scripture makes it clear that we do not need to comply with the 10 Commandments to be saved....in truth, scriptures make it clear that this is NEVER what God intended and that is what Christ came to make us understand.....

however, the 4th commandment didn't somehow disappear from the list of how God wants us to act.....

[BoogyMan]

simple enough

Matthew 12:28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.


Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind is the Hebrew summary of the first table of the commandments while Love your neighbor as yourself is the summary of the second table. By stating this Jesus was reaffirming the entire ten......

So what you are saying is that you have NOTHING with regard to sabbath keeping and your assumptions that cannot be supported with scripture or understanding of NT teaching.

Once again, read test text from Colossians that I provided you.

Colossians 2:14-16

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[PostmodernProphet]

I John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God....


So what you are saying is that you have NOTHING with regard to sabbath keeping and your assumptions that cannot be supported with scripture or understanding of NT teaching.



mmmm....no, what I am saying is that I have provided you with a direct quote from Jesus stating that all of the commandments remain in place, consistant with support and everything that the Church has taught for 2000 years.....and you have what?.....

again, the fact that we are not judged in accordance with our compliance with the 10 commandments does not mean that one of them disappeared and there are only 9.....

given your views, why do you only attack #9?.....why don't you reject the prohibitions against murder or idolatry?.....

[JohnDoe]

Foreknowledge is not predestination. BECAUSE Christ knows, he has chosen. Because he's not bound by 'time' he's already THERE at that day. Because he knows who is there, he's chosen us and set us apart. Because he knows our choices.

Babies? Babies are sinless.so, does anyone inherit original sin? does original sin only come with the child's first breath? Or does your faith not mention or have an original sin doctrine?

[darin]

Sin comes from our first sin. We're born with a sinful nature. We sin when our sinful nature changes our heart to a condition where we sin.

[BoogyMan]

I John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God....



mmmm....no, what I am saying is that I have provided you with a direct quote from Jesus stating that all of the commandments remain in place, consistant with support and everything that the Church has taught for 2000 years.....and you have what?.....

again, the fact that we are not judged in accordance with our compliance with the 10 commandments does not mean that one of them disappeared and there are only 9.....

given your views, why do you only attack #9?.....why don't you reject the prohibitions against murder or idolatry?.....

I have shown you quite clearly that the Sabbath was nailed to the cross from Colossians 2:14-16.

You try to put words into the mouth of Christ when you claim that He reaffirmed all of the commandments in a statement that could not by any means be stretched to say what you claim it does.

The other 9 commandments are re-stated in one form or another in the NT, the law that we are under now.

[BoogyMan]

Sin comes from our first sin. We're born with a sinful nature. We sin when our sinful nature changes our heart to a condition where we sin.

I must differ with you DMP, we are not born sinful. As a matter of fact those who obey the gospel are told to become as little children. Ever wonder why?

Historical text from Ezekiel shows a man is not guilty of the sins of his father.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

With this truth in mind you should consider the teaching with regard to a Christian becoming like a child.

Matthew 18:1-4 "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

[darin]

I must differ with you DMP, we are not born sinful. As a matter of fact those who obey the gospel are told to become as little children. Ever wonder why?

Historical text from Ezekiel shows a man is not guilty of the sins of his father.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

With this truth in mind you should consider the teaching with regard to a Christian becoming like a child.

Matthew 18:1-4 "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Those are great but have nothing to do with the fact since the time of Adam, we've (humans) have a sinful nature. We are born sinless - but it's in our nature to sin, so, we do.

[BoogyMan]

Those are great but have nothing to do with the fact since the time of Adam, we've (humans) have a sinful nature. We are born sinless - but it's in our nature to sin, so, we do.

You and I will never agree that man has a sinful nature as man was created by God and called good. Man certainly does sin, but it is not by design.

[Immanuel]

You would be egregiously wrong with that comment Immie. The comments from James speak of justification being from faith AND works.

We are to be obedient to God as clearly pointed out in Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

We MUST do God's will or we will not be acceptable to him.

I'm sorry, but I believe it is you who are wrong.

And of course not all who call upon the Lord in the day of judgment will be saved as you correctly state in Matthew 7:21. There will be those who by Good Works believe that they have "earned" their way into Heaven, yet by Grace have not been saved. In fact, your point here seems to make my point for me very well.

We are saved by grace alone and nothing we do from the casual statement, "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior" to the most righteous witnessing for the Lord ie Mother Teresa or any of the "saints" will work to save us.

When you throw MUST into the mix then you are taking all of Grace out of the loop. You are insinuating that we earn our way to Heaven. I must completely disagree with this. You are insinuating that we are saved by the Law when, in fact, the Gospel is our only salvation.

Salvation is exclusively a work of divine grace. Without their merit and cooperation did the Son of God procure for all men forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation. Without our merit and cooperation did the Holy Ghost cause us to believe in Christ, and to continue in this faith unto the end. Thus God began the good work in us, and performs it until we are safe in heaven. No Christian may now or hereafter claim any merit for himself, but must give all praise and glory to God, who "hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light" (Col 1:12). If at any stage our salvation depended in any measure or degree on some contribution we must make, it would at once become uncertain to all of us, since no one could be sure whether his personal contribution were sufficient to insure salvation. Man cannot contribute anything toward his conversion and final salvation, but he is saved exclusively by the monergism of divine grace. "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9) (Rom 4:16)

A Summary of Christian Doctrine by Edward W. A. Koehler


Originally posted by JohnDoeBut isn't there some passage in the Bible that states that
God knew us before we were born?

See Psalm 139 for one passage. I believe there are others, but won't take the time to look them up at the moment.




Originally posted by JohnDoeAnd another passage that mentions our names being writen in the Book of life before we were even born?

See Revelation 17:8.



Originally posted by JohnDoeAnd don't Christians use this to speak out against abortion and claiming the baby in gestation is equal to a full human? And if this were not the case would babies killed inside the womb have no chance of seeing God because they never had a chance to do what you are saying is their part, to accept the Word, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in order to be saved?

Yes and yes.


You and I will never agree that man has a sinful nature as man was created by God and called good. Man certainly does sin, but it is not by design.

Well, I asked my pastor about this (granted he is only human) but his reply was that we were created with Free Will and were good at the time of creation. But with the fall (thank you Eve) ;) we lost that and have been tainted ever since.

I must continue to disagree with both you and dmp. We are born sinful. With sin inherited from Adam and Eve. If this were not so, a baby who dies within the first few minutes of birth would automatically be saved.

ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All includes even a baby.

Immie

[BoogyMan]

We are saved by grace alone and nothing we do from the casual statement, "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior" to the most righteous witnessing for the Lord ie Mother Teresa or any of the "saints" will work to save us.

Without our obedience to the word of God Immie, there is no salvation. Salvation is out there, but we have to be desirous of it and change our live to be in obedience with the will of God.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

There is nothing we can do to merit salvation, but there ARE things we must do in order to fulfill the will of God and to access the free gift of salvation.

[darin]

You and I will never agree that man has a sinful nature as man was created by God and called good. Man certainly does sin, but it is not by design.

The sinful nature wasn't inherited from God, it was inherited from Adam and Eve. :)

[Immanuel]

Without our obedience to the word of God Immie, there is no salvation. Salvation is out there, but we have to be desirous of it and change our live to be in obedience with the will of God.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

There is nothing we can do to merit salvation, but there ARE things we must do in order to fulfill the will of God and to access the free gift of salvation.

Actually, I cannot obey the Word of God UNLESS God has changed my nature and chosen me. My sinful nature says, "I'm good enough. I don't need God." and unless God fills me with Faith by his Grace, my sinful nature will continue to say, "I'm good enough. I don't need God. I'll do things MY WAY."


The sinful nature wasn't inherited from God, it was inherited from Adam and Eve. :)

Now you are catching on. :D

Immie

[BoogyMan]

The sinful nature wasn't inherited from God, it was inherited from Adam and Eve. :)

Egads, negative ghostrider, the pattern is full.

Show me where the bible claims that a man is guilty of the sins of his father. I can certainly show you where it clearly states he isn't.

[BoogyMan]

Actually, I cannot obey the Word of God UNLESS God has changed my nature and chosen me. My sinful nature says, "I'm good enough. I don't need God." and unless God fills me with Faith by his Grace, my sinful nature will continue to say, "I'm good enough. I don't need God. I'll do things MY WAY."



Now you are catching on. :D

Immie

I have been squarely on since the beginning my friend. :)

God doesn't make anyone come to him, the gospel calls and we have a choice whether or not to answer that call.

How do we build the faith we need to do the right thing"

Ro 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

The word of God is His power unto salvation for us.

Ro 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

Salvation isn't something you step in Immie, you have to want it.

[Immanuel]

I have been squarely on since the beginning my friend. :)

Not sure what you mean by "squarely on".


God doesn't make anyone come to him, the gospel calls and we have a choice whether or not to answer that call.

I would say that you are getting very close here. However, you are not quite there. That does not mean that I don't believe you are saved. From all outward appearances you are saved. However, our salvation does not rely upon our complete understanding of the Word of God. If it did, we all may as well hang it up now and give in because we will never fully understand. God chooses us. We do not have the Free Will to choose God. The Gospel calls... God by his Grace gives us faith and with that faith we are saved.


How do we build the faith we need to do the right thing[?]

God gives us what we need to know. Once God has given us Faith, we (by our new natures) want to learn more about God's Word growing in our Faith not growing our Faith. We have all that we need. We need nothing more, but we want to learn more


Ro 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

The word of God is His power unto salvation for us.

Grace is his power unto salvation for us.


Ro 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

Salvation isn't something you step in Immie, you have to want it.

You cannot want it until God changes your spirit. Thus, it is by grace you have been saved at this point you begin to want your salvation.

Immie

[BoogyMan]

God gives us what we need to know. Once God has given us Faith, we (by our new natures) want to learn more about God's Word growing in our Faith not growing our Faith. We have all that we need. We need nothing more, but we want to learn more

Prove it my friend. :) Faith comes by hearing the word of God. God does not force faith upon anyone.



Grace is his power unto salvation for us.


Book, chapter, and verse Immie. I can show you where the word of God is the power of God unto salvation, show me where grace is called the power of God unto salvation. Grace is why we can have salvation.



You cannot want it until God changes your spirit. Thus, it is by grace you have been saved at this point you begin to want your salvation.

Immie

Once again, show me where God forces his salvation on anyone. Read 2 Corinthians chapter 7 and verse 10 as it relates to repentance. Without man coming to an understanding of his state, there can be no salvation.

Consider the 1st gospel sermon preached by Peter in Acts chapter 2. After hearing the truth preached mens hearts were pierced, God didn't force anything on them, they came to an understanding of their state after hearing the truth taught.

[PostmodernProphet]

I have shown you quite clearly that the Sabbath was nailed to the cross from Colossians 2:14-16.

sorry, but you have done no such thing....Colossians shows that we are not judged by our obedience to the law, but tells me nothing about the 4th commandment that is not true of any other.....

[PostmodernProphet]

As a matter of fact those who obey the gospel are told to become as little children. Ever wonder why?


because little children are prepared to believe the "unbelievable"......

[Kathianne]

So, I am talking with a family member about this Sabbath, the fourth commandment. They made a very good argument for the proposition that the Sabbath commandment is still in effect and that the sunday worship day is and was solely brought about through the catholic church. I told em to go pound sand. They said the catholic church actually admits to changing the day, in their diaries or something.

Is the fourth commandment still valid?

Funny thing, in Catholic commandments, it's number 3. The first 3 are "God" commandments, the 4th is 4 God's standins, parents. In any case, being a teacher in Catholic school, I will tell you that a good 95% of our students do NOT attend services on Sat. evening or Sunday. Our school has 'school mass' twice a month. So no, they are not honoring the obligation.

The kids would, but it's the parents failing. One must be left to wonder why they spend nearly $5k per child, but fail in the most basic things.

[PostmodernProphet]

but there ARE things we must do in order to fulfill the will of God and to access the free gift of salvation.

only one thing, BM....believe.....

[Immanuel]

Prove it my friend. :) Faith comes by hearing the word of God. God does not force faith upon anyone.



Book, chapter, and verse Immie. I can show you where the word of God is the power of God unto salvation, show me where grace is called the power of God unto salvation. Grace is why we can have salvation.



Once again, show me where God forces his salvation on anyone. Read 2 Corinthians chapter 7 and verse 10 as it relates to repentance. Without man coming to an understanding of his state, there can be no salvation.

Consider the 1st gospel sermon preached by Peter in Acts chapter 2. After hearing the truth preached mens hearts were pierced, God didn't force anything on them, they came to an understanding of their state after hearing the truth taught.

Where did I say, "forces"? That was a word you tried to throw in a while back. I let it slide then. No where did I claim that God forces anyone to do anything. God gives not forces. When you are given a Christmas gift are you "forced" to take it?

You are under the mistaken impression that you have the free will to "choose God". Your sinful nature precludes you from choosing God.

Faith is the only way you are saved. You want book, chapter and verse? Read my signature lines. I've reproduced it in every post in this thread. :)

In re: 1 Cor 7:10 without God first giving you Faith by Grace (Eph 2:8-9) you will not come to an understanding of your state nor will you repent. See spurgeon's sermon linked below.

In re: Acts 2, God pierced them. The Holy Spirit came upon them and God granted them Faith.

In reference to this whole issue you might read Charles Spurgeon's sermon entitled "Turn or Burn". It gives a new (well not so new but you get my drift)perspective on the term repentance.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0106.htm

Read it. It is quite interesting.

I struggled with this topic once too. I asked "how does my need to repent fit in with the Salvation by Grace alone" idea? I found my answers to that question in "Turn or Burn".

I cannot repent unless God first changes my nature. Once again, that puts everything... EVERYTHING at the foot of the cross rather than where we want it, in our backpockets.

No, God does not force us to do anything. However, we are not free to choose God's righteousness on our own. Our sinful nature prevents this. See Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will" for a real good discussion on Free Will.

http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

Man likes to claim, "I am my own man and can do what ever I want". Martin Luther proves that this is not true. We cannot choose to be spiritually righteous. We can choose to be temporally good human beings, but we cannot choose spiritual righteousness.

Immie

[BoogyMan]

only one thing, BM....believe.....

So in every case of conversion in the book of Acts where we have examples of belief, confession, repentance, and baptism, you are willing to claim, without reference, that belief is all that is required? I will await your exegetical support of this claim.

[BoogyMan]

Where did I say, "forces"? That was a word you tried to throw in a while back. I let it slide then. No where did I claim that God forces anyone to do anything. God gives not forces. When you are given a Christmas gift are you "forced" to take it?

Your commentary that claims you can only accept God when he changes you is where I get the forced remediation concept Immie. I would like to see you support this with scripture.

One thing to keep in mind is that I will not discuss biblical concepts based on a book other than the bible. We are told that we can know the truth and it will make us free (John 8:32), why would we need other reference than the truth?



You are under the mistaken impression that you have the free will to "choose God". Your sinful nature precludes you from choosing God.

Book, chapter, and verse Immie. Lets have some. :)



Faith is the only way you are saved. You want book, chapter and verse? Read my signature lines. I've reproduced it in every post in this thread. :)

In re: 1 Cor 7:10 without God first giving you Faith by Grace (Eph 2:8-9) you will not come to an understanding of your state nor will you repent. See spurgeon's sermon linked below.

In re: Acts 2, God pierced them. The Holy Spirit came upon them and God granted them Faith.

In reference to this whole issue you might read Charles Spurgeon's sermon entitled "Turn or Burn". It gives a new (well not so new but you get my drift)perspective on the term repentance.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0106.htm

Read it. It is quite interesting.

I struggled with this topic once too. I asked "how does my need to repent fit in with the Salvation by Grace alone" idea? I found my answers to that question in "Turn or Burn".

I cannot repent unless God first changes my nature. Once again, that puts everything... EVERYTHING at the foot of the cross rather than where we want it, in our backpockets.

No, God does not force us to do anything. However, we are not free to choose God's righteousness on our own. Our sinful nature prevents this. See Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will" for a real good discussion on Free Will.

http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

Man likes to claim, "I am my own man and can do what ever I want". Martin Luther proves that this is not true. We cannot choose to be spiritually righteous. We can choose to be temporally good human beings, but we cannot choose spiritual righteousness.

Immie

You misunderstand me, our actions cannot save us, only God can do that. There ARE, however, things that man must do in oder to lay hold of the free gift of salvation. I cannot go and do some good work that will earn me heaven, but when God has said through His Son, or through His inspired apostles that something must be done, it clearly must be done.

[PostmodernProphet]

So in every case of conversion in the book of Acts where we have examples of belief, confession, repentance, and baptism, you are willing to claim, without reference, that belief is all that is required? I will await your exegetical support of this claim.

I John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God....

Luke 23:40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son;

Romans 3:20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;

Romans 3:27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 4:2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Ephesians 2: 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

enough?

[BoogyMan]

I John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God....

Luke 23:40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son;

Romans 3:20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;

Romans 3:27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 4:2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Ephesians 2: 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

enough?

Anyone can quote disassociated passages with no knowledge of setting and claim victory PMP. You wish desperately to claim that once you believe that you have the liberty to disregard the instructions given to obey. Take for example the thief on the cross. The kingdom of Christ began after he ascended into heaven and the holy spirit came upon the apostles in Jerusalem. Christ himself told the thief on the cross he would be in heaven, Christ gave us the writings of the apostles which you so desperately wish to disregard. Yes, faith is involved, but not the end of the line. Read the records of conversions in the book of acts after the kingdom was established and then lets talk.

[PostmodernProphet]

You wish desperately to claim that once you believe that you have the liberty to disregard the instructions given to obey.

where did you get a silly idea like that?......if we weren't supposed to obey, Christ wouldn't have reaffirmed the commandments as the standard for our lives....but 1) our salvation does not hinge upon that obedience, and 2) it is silly to exclude the 4th commandment from that standard.......

no, as far as quoting disassociated passages with no knowledge of the setting, may I suggest that I have yet to see you quote anything that WASN'T a demonstration of your lack of knowledge of scripture.....


Read the records of conversions in the book of acts after the kingdom was established and then lets talk.

no, son....if you think you can dredge up an argument to support your claim from the book of Acts, then YOU lay it out.....this approach of yours to say "go figure out my argument and come back so we can talk" is a cheap escape.....obviously you are unable to figure it out yourself.....show me from Acts, a passage which indicates that salvation hinges on something beyond faith.......


Anyone can quote disassociated passages with no knowledge of setting

to be honest, BM....if you can state that Romans 3:20, Romans 3:27, and Romans 4:21 are "disassociated" passages, it makes me wonder if you have ever even read the scriptures......


You wish desperately to claim that once you believe that you have the liberty to disregard the instructions given to obey.

the interesting thing is that this thread started because you apparently are desperate to have the liberty to disregard the 4th commandment.....what is behind that?.....is your wife giving you a hard time for working on Sundays?

[Immanuel]

Your commentary that claims you can only accept God when he changes you is where I get the forced remediation concept Immie. I would like to see you support this with scripture.

One thing to keep in mind is that I will not discuss biblical concepts based on a book other than the bible. We are told that we can know the truth and it will make us free (John 8:32), why would we need other reference than the truth?



Book, chapter, and verse Immie. Lets have some. :)



You misunderstand me, our actions cannot save us, only God can do that. There ARE, however, things that man must do in oder to lay hold of the free gift of salvation. I cannot go and do some good work that will earn me heaven, but when God has said through His Son, or through His inspired apostles that something must be done, it clearly must be done.

And yet you throw out all the verses that say you are saved by grace alone.

Your very last statement beginning with "You misunderstand me" is proof of this. If you claim, "it clearly must be done" you have taken everything away from the cross and put the forgiveness of sins upon your doings not the work of Jesus Christ. Give me chapter and verse that says that you can save yourself please.

I did support my commentary with two very good links which by the way provide many biblical references. If you choose not to read them, that is not my problem. Yes we are told we can know the truth and it can make us free. You know the truth, yet you do not comprehend all of the truth. None of us can. You assume that your mind can comprehend the entire will of God. I make no such assumption.

In reference to you "must" statements, We do repent, the problem that you have is with your interpretation of repentance and how this is accomplished. We obey God's commandments not because we "must" but because we want to please him. We repent because we want to please God.

Thank you, but I will continue to put my faith in the cross of Jesus Christ and not in my own abilities. For now, I will ALLOW you to believe in your own deeds. ;) I hope and pray that you are good enough to earn your way into the Throne Room of God.

Did you read "Turn or Burn" or "Bondage of the Will"? They put a much better light (and include chapter and verse references) on this entire subject than I can. Besides, why would I want to rewrite their works? They did a marvelous job of explaining the concepts.

You make the statement that you will not discuss the works of theologians. That tells me that you put your faith in your own understanding. You are wrong, your thoughts on this come from what you have picked up from other people much more knowledgeable on this subject than we are. I remember something about those who will not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. Well, those who won't learn from the scholars of the past are doomed to remain in the darkness of their own understandings. Do not be so foolish to sit on your laurels and assume that you know better than all the great theologians (many of whom by the way read the original language) of the past. And remember those theologians are not always right, however, they can lead us to a clearer understanding of the Word of God.

Oh and by the way, since you have clearly gotten your "points of view" from other human beings, who are obviously wrong, I would suggest that you start listening to the theologians of the past for a clearer understanding. :D

Immie

[darin]

Egads, negative ghostrider, the pattern is full.

Show me where the bible claims that a man is guilty of the sins of his father. I can certainly show you where it clearly states he isn't.

See what you're doing? You're changing what I said to something you want to argue - changing what I said into something on your agenda.

It'd be like me replying back with "You're wrong, show me where I said purple hair is sinful!"

Just doesn't make sense.

Our sinful nature is described in part, here:


For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please" (Galatians 5:17)

If you don't agree man has an inherently sinful nature, you'd have to agree it's quite possible that some Men (not counting Christ) 'never' sinned.


If this were not so, a baby who dies within the first few minutes of birth would automatically be saved.



That is exactly what happens. :)

[BoogyMan]

And yet you throw out all the verses that say you are saved by grace alone.

Your very last statement beginning with "You misunderstand me" is proof of this. If you claim, "it clearly must be done" you have taken everything away from the cross and put the forgiveness of sins upon your doings not the work of Jesus Christ. Give me chapter and verse that says that you can save yourself please.

I did support my commentary with two very good links which by the way provide many biblical references. If you choose not to read them, that is not my problem. Yes we are told we can know the truth and it can make us free. You know the truth, yet you do not comprehend all of the truth. None of us can. You assume that your mind can comprehend the entire will of God. I make no such assumption.

In reference to you "must" statements, We do repent, the problem that you have is with your interpretation of repentance and how this is accomplished. We obey God's commandments not because we "must" but because we want to please him. We repent because we want to please God.

Thank you, but I will continue to put my faith in the cross of Jesus Christ and not in my own abilities. For now, I will ALLOW you to believe in your own deeds. ;) I hope and pray that you are good enough to earn your way into the Throne Room of God.

Did you read "Turn or Burn" or "Bondage of the Will"? They put a much better light (and include chapter and verse references) on this entire subject than I can. Besides, why would I want to rewrite their works? They did a marvelous job of explaining the concepts.

You make the statement that you will not discuss the works of theologians. That tells me that you put your faith in your own understanding. You are wrong, your thoughts on this come from what you have picked up from other people much more knowledgeable on this subject than we are. I remember something about those who will not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. Well, those who won't learn from the scholars of the past are doomed to remain in the darkness of their own understandings. Do not be so foolish to sit on your laurels and assume that you know better than all the great theologians (many of whom by the way read the original language) of the past. And remember those theologians are not always right, however, they can lead us to a clearer understanding of the Word of God.

Oh and by the way, since you have clearly gotten your "points of view" from other human beings, who are obviously wrong, I would suggest that you start listening to the theologians of the past for a clearer understanding. :D

Immie

Immie, you have shown no verses that say "grace alone." I take the whole of the NT into account. You toss out the verses that are not fitting your favored dogma my friend. I certainly am not trying to be harsh in that statement, it is merely a statement of fact. I advocate taking the whole of the bible into account whereas you do not seem to do so. I am advocating that God in His infinite grace has shown us mercy and has asked that we do some things. If we do not do those things which God has asked we will not see heaven.

Once again you claim that I am trying to say that I am saving myself. What you are doing is twisting the context to do so. I am claiming that man has to come to God on God's terms, no other terms will do.

Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Man clearly has a part in his salvation and that is choosing to change and bring his life into obedience to the God of Heaven.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

How do you get that I have clearly gotten my pov in this regard from other human beings? This is a view you clearly cannot prove nor have any knowledge of, I get my pov purely from the scripture. The ONLY source that can be called definitive with reference to an understanding of the will of God.

My bible tells me that I can know the truth in John chapter 8.

Joh 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

My bible also tells me that I am to study it to show myself approved in 2nd Timothy.

2Ti 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

If faith/belief were all that was involved with salvation, the demons who believe and tremble would be saved. Reference James chapter 2 vs 19-20.

James 2:19-20 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Having said all of this, please let me point out that I truly am enjoying our discussion. So often people won't even consider an open and frank discussion of the bible.

[PostmodernProphet]

How do you get that I have clearly gotten my pov in this regard from other human beings?
I would have to say that you didn't get that pov from other humans, since I am not aware of any theologians who would agree with you.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Joh 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."


an excellent choice, BM.....but you should have finished the passage....

John 8:31 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. "

we cannot become free by avoiding sin, because whoever has sinned is the servant of sin forever, BM, unless the Son frees us from that servanthood......

[BoogyMan]

an excellent choice, BM.....but you should have finished the passage....

John 8:31 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. "

we cannot become free by avoiding sin, because whoever has sinned is the servant of sin forever, BM, it is the Son who frees us from that servanthood......

We become free by putting on Christ, and we are to do our dead level best to avoid sin afterward.

Consider Romans 6:1-7
"1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."

[JohnDoe]

:popcorn:

[PostmodernProphet]

James 2:19-20 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"


your error is to equate the "works" that James refers to as obedience to the law...look at the rest of James 2


20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


the "works" of Abraham is not obedience to the law, it is being prepared to do what would have been against the law, because he had faith in what God told him.....the "works" of Rahab were not obedience to the law, but being prepared to do that which would have seemed wrong (betraying her city) because she believed God wanted her to....the "works" that James is referring to are actions which demonstrate that faith is alive and not dead......not day to day obedience to the law.....

[BoogyMan]

See what you're doing? You're changing what I said to something you want to argue - changing what I said into something on your agenda.

It'd be like me replying back with "You're wrong, show me where I said purple hair is sinful!"

Just doesn't make sense.

Our sinful nature is described in part, here:



If you don't agree man has an inherently sinful nature, you'd have to agree it's quite possible that some Men (not counting Christ) 'never' sinned.




That is exactly what happens. :)

The flesh is NOT the spirit DMP, that should be obvious. Man is a spiritual being and, yes, he can fall to fleshly temptation. God didn't create us for sin, to claim that we are naturally sinful doesn't take that into account.

Consider the teaching in Romans chapter 1 about homosexuality, it speaks of homosexuality as being 'against nature.'

Romans 1:25-27
"25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

This points out that if sin is against nature, that nature must not be sinful.

[PostmodernProphet]

and we are to do our dead level best to avoid sin afterward

of course we are, but it isn't because we are at risk of losing our salvation....

[BoogyMan]

your error is to equate the "works" that James refers to as obedience to the law...look at the rest of James 2

Are you claiming that I am stating we have to uphold OT law? No such commentary can be substantiated in this thread.



the "works" of Abraham is not obedience to the law, it is being prepared to do what would have been against the law, because he had faith in what God told him.....the "works" of Rahab were not obedience to the law, but being prepared to do that which would have seemed wrong (betraying her city) because she believed God wanted her to....the "works" that James is referring to are actions which demonstrate that faith is alive and not dead......not day to day obedience to the law.....

Read Matthew 7:21 aloud to yourself a few times, what does this verse say?

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

[PostmodernProphet]

We become free by putting on Christ, and we are to do our dead level best to avoid sin afterward.

Consider Romans 6:1-7
"1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."

amazing that you didn't continue that passage to verse 14, which directly contradicts your position.


8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[BoogyMan]

of course we are, but it isn't because we are at risk of losing our salvation....

Consider what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27

"24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Also read James 5:19-20. James is talking to "brethren" in this context, Christians. What does James say about a brother erring from the truth and what its consequences would have been?

"19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

[PostmodernProphet]

Are you claiming that I am stating we have to uphold OT law? No such commentary can be substantiated in this thread.


I can see no other interpretation of your posts than to say that continued obedience to at least nine of the commandments is required for salvation.....

[darin]

The flesh is NOT the spirit DMP, that should be obvious. Man is a spiritual being and, yes, he can fall to fleshly temptation. God didn't create us for sin, to claim that we are naturally sinful doesn't take that into account.

Consider the teaching in Romans chapter 1 about homosexuality, it speaks of homosexuality as being 'against nature.'

Romans 1:25-27
"25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

This points out that if sin is against nature, that nature must not be sinful.

None of what you said makes ANY sense to me. Your conclusion in the last line makes ZERO sense as it may relate to the scripture you posted.

We are BORN with a sinful nature - it's natural and normal for us to sin. That's our nature. That's the very basic tenant of Christianity.

[PostmodernProphet]

Read Matthew 7:21 aloud to yourself a few times, what does this verse say?

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Christ is talking about hypocrites...posers who aren't true believers.....specifically, he was criticizing those who thought that they could obtain salvation by obedience to the law....ironic that you should use the passage to defend that very thing......


Consider what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27

"24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."


???...why?....it doesn't contradict anything that I have said....it doesn't even deal with it......

[darin]

Can we PLEASE stop using King James Bible quotes? Most of the words make NO practical sense to today's readers. It's slightly embarassing! :)

[BoogyMan]

amazing that you didn't continue that passage to verse 14, which directly contradicts your position.

Unfortunately for your assumptive position it doesn't pmp. I have NEVER contested the fact that the grace of God has allowed for our salvation now. Why will you not address the verses I posted. Are you once again tossing those comments out?

[PostmodernProphet]

getting tired of repeating myself, BM.....your theology is a bit strange, and I believe unscriptural....I am still puzzled why you retain antagonism toward Sundays.....any clues?

[BoogyMan]

Christ is talking about hypocrites...posers who aren't true believers.....specifically, he was criticizing those who thought that they could obtain salvation by obedience to the law....ironic that you should use the passage to defend that very thing......



???...why?....it doesn't contradict anything that I have said....it doesn't even deal with it......

You asserted that you cannot fall, which those verses directly contradict. And your assertion about posers cannot be substantiated in those verses pmp.

[PostmodernProphet]

Are you once again tossing those comments out?


I am not tossing the verses out, BM, just the strange conclusions you come to after reading them.....

[BoogyMan]

getting tired of repeating myself, BM.....your theology is a bit strange, and I believe unscriptural....I am still puzzled why you retain antagonism toward Sundays.....any clues?

Antagonism toward Sundays? No such. This all started when it was pointed out that Saturday is the Sabbath day not Sunday, and that we are not bound by keeping the Sabbath as the Old Law requires.

[PostmodernProphet]

And your assertion about posers cannot be substantiated in those verses pmp.

???...well, it may be that you have not accepted it.....however, my point is consistent with 2000 years of Christian theology and understanding regarding the passage.....if you believe everything Christianity teaches is unsubstantiated and that your exegesis is, so be it...I choose to disagree with you.....

[BoogyMan]

None of what you said makes ANY sense to me. Your conclusion in the last line makes ZERO sense as it may relate to the scripture you posted.

We are BORN with a sinful nature - it's natural and normal for us to sin. That's our nature. That's the very basic tenant of Christianity.

You have every right to be wrong dmp. :D

If sin is against nature, nature must not be sinful. It is clear and simple. God did not make man to sin, man went there on his own.

[BoogyMan]

???...well, it may be that you have not accepted it.....however, my point is consistent with 2000 years of Christian theology and understanding regarding the passage.....if you believe everything Christianity teaches is unsubstantiated and that your exegesis is, so be it...I choose to disagree with you.....

So even though the passages clearly state that a brother can fall, you stand against it?

Sorry to hear that.

[PostmodernProphet]

Antagonism toward Sundays? No such. This all started when it was pointed out that Saturday is the Sabbath day not Sunday, and that we are not bound by keeping the Sabbath as the Old Law requires.


whether it be Sunday or Saturday, you have stated here and on other threads that Christians are only required to obey nine of the ten commandments.....you always seem to avoid explaining why, I remain curious what your motive is...again, is it because your family is on your case about working on Sunday?

[PostmodernProphet]

So even though the passages clearly state that a brother can fall, you stand against it?

Sorry to hear that.


even though the Bible clearly states that all that is required for salvation is the grace of God, you stand for the proposition that something more is required....sorry to hear that....

[BoogyMan]

even though the Bible clearly states that all that is required for salvation is the grace of God, you stand for the proposition that something more is required....sorry to hear that....

What about the verses posted that clearly state that things like repentance, baptism, confession of Christ, and remaining faithful are also required?

Why do you selectively read the bible? Why do you not want to take the instruction of the NT as a whole?


whether it be Sunday or Saturday, you have stated here and on other threads that Christians are only required to obey nine of the ten commandments.....you always seem to avoid explaining why, I remain curious what your motive is...again, is it because your family is on your case about working on Sunday?

This is simply dishonest pmp, I have posted specific verses that point out why we are not to be held to Sabbath keeping. If you would actually read the posts it would help.

[darin]

You have every right to be wrong dmp. :D

If sin is against nature, nature must not be sinful. It is clear and simple. God did not make man to sin, man went there on his own.

You are REALLY confused.

We are born with a sinful nature. Not Nature like plants and trees - but nature as in 'inclination'.

God made Man with the choice to sin. We decide to sin. Why? Because it's OUR NATURE to do so. This is like MATH and you keep shouting about my spelling.

[JohnDoe]

I believe that when the time is right, we will be the fish that are caught.

For me, although reared a Catholic, and in youth accepted that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and God himself manifested in the Son, that His blood was shed for my sins...and received all of the Catholic sacraments....Baptism, confession/communion, confirmation....I did not act as a Christian should have acted. I was not sinless...and I certainly was not following the commandment to honor my parents, In my teens I became rebellious... amongst many other sins that plagues our youth of today.

It was later, in my late twenties, where I had a God enlightening experience, Where I can honestly say that I was born Again of the Spirit...this took me hitting a real low in my life, this took me soooooo needing God's forgiveness....this took me to the place where it was accepting that I was a failure at following all that God had taught me thru His Word.... I surrendered myself FINALLY to my Lord....I surrendered my guilt up to Him.... I finally understood that He Died for me and for my wretched soul....and who was my only way to some day seeing God....

And even though this sounds very "Protestant like"to any Catholics on this site, it was a Monsegnor in Tampa that actually helped me recognize that Christ had already been put to death for my transgressions. From that point on, I was changed...i can't begin to tell you all that this means, it was a personal experience.

How this relates to this debate is as follows:

When I understood what Christ had DONE FOR ME....shed his blood as my Lamb, hung on that cross while others just mocked Him, shedding his sweat and His blood for forgiveness of MY Sins...and when I surrendered that I was just a lousy, good for nothing soul, and didn't stand a chance in "making it to heaven" on my own....

well, this is when I changed, I became a new person, I wanted to show Christ that I loved him so much for His forgiveness of my sins. I wanted to be as good as I possibly could be....I repented I suppose.

Now here is the "kicker"....

I did NOT DO THIS for ME.... I did NOT change and repent because it would "get me to Heaven".... I changed because I wanted to show God/Christ HOW GRATEFUL I was for this gift of Grace and Mercy, that I had been FREELY GIVEN, even BEFORE I repented, before I changed!!!

The Forgiveness given BEFORE repenting is so loving...something so undeserved, that one can't help but want to change and repent.

This reminds me of a passage in the Bible where a group of men were getting ready to stone a woman for her Adultery and Christ said let he who is without sin cast the first stone....the acusers left without throwing a stone....(and here is the part that relates) Christ told the adultress, "your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more".

Christ DID NOT SAY "Sin no more and your sins of the past will be forgiven".

He forgave the adultress of her sins FIRST(gave her forgiveness, a gift of grace and mercy first), then he called on repentence...to sin no more.

It would not be a GIFT, if we had to "earn it" first, no?

I feel that when one really acknowledges this incredible gift of forgiveness of sins, that they are so thankful for the gift, that they will want to show thanks.

I think that the adultress in this scripture walked away in complete Awe for the grace and gift that Jesus had given her, that she did stop being an adultress....she did not stop because she wanted to be saved, she was already saved, already forgiven. She changed her ways in thankfulness for the gift she had been given.

Thus, my personal belief is that at some point in our lives we will recognize the Gift of Christ shedding His bllod for our sins, and we will recognize our own sinful nature and how lucky we are to have a Savior, and we will change for the better...in gratefulness of this gift.

I do not believe that we will ever be completely sinless. I do believe that because of this Faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ, and Him sacraficing Himself for our own sins, that we will find ourselves changing, and following more closely the Word.

Yes, Faith without works is dead Boogy.

But my contention is that the "works" come to us because of the true Faith and Belief that Christ sacraficed himself, for me...they come in thankfulness...NOT BECAUSE these works do a damn thing to save me...

jd

[PostmodernProphet]

What about the verses posted that clearly state that things like repentance, baptism, confession of Christ, and remaining faithful are also required?

??....you haven't posted any verses that clearly state these things are required for salvation.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I have posted specific verses that point out why we are not to be held to Sabbath keeping


????...where did you post them?.....it would have been easier if you had posted them to THIS thread.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Why do you selectively read the bible? Why do you not want to take the instruction of the NT as a whole?


dude!....don't talk to me about selectivity.....you quoted from a passage in Romans even though a verse in the same pericope contradicted the point you were trying to make.....

[BoogyMan]

????...where did you post them?.....it would have been easier if you had posted them to THIS thread.....

I have shown clearly that we are no longer to be held to Sabbath keeping and that there are other requirements and posted the verses in this thread pmp. I am truly sorry you refuse to read the commentary as in that case there is no debating it with you.

[JohnDoe]

I have shown clearly that we are no longer to be held to Sabbath keeping and that there are other requirements and posted the verses in this thread pmp. I am truly sorry you refuse to read the commentary as in that case there is no debating it with you.I have been following this thread and I have not seen one verse that you have given that says, " you do not need to follow 1 of the ten commandments that God gave you, you do not need to keep the Lord's Day holy anymore" .... NOT ONE. It is possible I missed this post of yours, but I doubt it? As far as the scripture that you have posted, again, to me, it does not support what you are claiming?

Either way, whether we kept all of the 10 commandments all of the time or not, (which I believe it is impossible to be sinless), we are saved thru Faith in the Grace that God gave us, Christ as the Lamb....and that good works will follow, but not necessarily all at once or in man's time...but when God had already chosen to be the right time, for that individual.

So am I way off base?

jd

[BoogyMan]

dude!....don't talk to me about selectivity.....you quoted from a passage in Romans even though a verse in the same pericope contradicted the point you were trying to make.....

You aren't arguing with me as you ignored the first part of that passage from Romans to try and make a point that makes no sense in context from a single verse pmp. You are arguing against scripture.

[BoogyMan]

I have been following this thread and I have not seen one verse that you have given that says, " you do not need to follow 1 of the ten commandments that God gave you, you do not need to keep the Lord's Day holy anymore" .... NOT ONE. It is possible I missed this post of yours, but I doubt it? As far as the scripture that you have posted, again, to me, it does not support what you are claiming?

Either way, whether we kept all of the 10 commandments all of the time or not, (which I believe it is impossible to be sinless), we are saved thru Faith in the Grace that God gave us, Christ as the Lamb....and that good works will follow, but not necessarily all at once or in man's time...but when God had already chosen to be the right time, for that individual.

So am I way off base?

jd

You should go back and read the passages about the Old Law being nailed to the cross and about not being judged for not keeping sabbaths JD. :)

[darin]

I have shown clearly that we are no longer to be held to Sabbath keeping and that there are other requirements and posted the verses in this thread pmp. I am truly sorry you refuse to read the commentary as in that case there is no debating it with you.

Clear only to YOU, fwiw, Boogy.

[PostmodernProphet]

You should go back and read the passages about the Old Law being nailed to the cross and about not being judged for not keeping sabbaths JD.

okay, I took the time to reread every one of your posts to this thread.....nothing.....

[BoogyMan]

okay, I took the time to reread every one of your posts to this thread.....nothing.....

I will post it again. Colossians 2:14-17

"14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

[darin]

I will post it again. Colossians 2:14-17

"14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Psst....Read up a few verses...our Sinful nature...the natural tendency to sin which is born in us. Our nature.



For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

[PostmodernProphet]

I will post it again. Colossians 2:14-17

"14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Dude!....that Colossians 2 directly contradicts any claim that we need to comply with the law in order to obtain salvation...what are you talking about?....

one part in particular seems appropriate for this discussion....
"8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."....was that written 2000 years ago with you in mind?....

Look..."13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]"....we are saved by grace, not by works.....we aren't judged by ANY commandment, we are judged by our belief in Christ...

NOW....that being said, Christ affirmed the law as a standard by which we should live....all of the law, not just nine of them.....

[BoogyMan]

Dude!....that Colossians 2 directly contradicts any claim that we need to comply with the law in order to obtain salvation...what are you talking about?....

one part in particular seems appropriate for this discussion....
"8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."....was that written 2000 years ago with you in mind?....

Look..."13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]"....we are saved by grace, not by works.....we aren't judged by ANY commandment, we are judged by our belief in Christ...

NOW....that being said, Christ affirmed the law as a standard by which we should live....all of the law, not just nine of them.....

What do you think nailing the law to the cross means? I can support my assertions with scripture, unfortunately you have done little more than claim only certain scripture is relevant.

We are, quite specifically, not bound to sabbath keeping any longer. I am sorry, but you are quite egregiously mistaken.

[BoogyMan]

Psst....Read up a few verses...our Sinful nature...the natural tendency to sin which is born in us. Our nature.

Psst, try using a Greek interlinear and you will find that vs 11 more accurately states the following:

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"

[PostmodernProphet]

What do you think nailing the law to the cross means? I can support my assertions with scripture, unfortunately you have done little more than claim only certain scripture is relevant.

No, I am not claiming certain scripture is irrelevant, I am claiming your intepretation of a particular passage is off the wall.....Does it in no way strike you as odd that noone in the Christian community agrees with you?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

What do you think nailing the law to the cross means?

it means we are not judged by the law....yet, for some reason, you use the text to argue that we are still judged by the law......

[BoogyMan]

it means we are not judged by the law....yet, for some reason, you use the text to argue that we are still judged by the law......

I have NEVER, EVER in this thread argued that we are under the Old Law, we ARE however under New Testament law.

James 1:22-25
"22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."

[BoogyMan]

No, I am not claiming certain scripture is irrelevant, I am claiming your intepretation of a particular passage is off the wall.....Does it in no way strike you as odd that noone in the Christian community agrees with you?.....

Consider Matthew 7:13-14
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

[PostmodernProphet]

I have NEVER, EVER in this thread argued that we are under the Old Law, we ARE however under New Testament law.

the 10 commandments are both.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Consider Matthew 7:13-14
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

???...BM, in Matthew 7 Christ was criticizing those who thought they were made righteous by obedience to the law.....people who agreed with YOU!.....goodness gracious, man....you are coming out of scripture thinking we are supposed to act in the very way that Christ came to earth to make us STOP acting.......

[PostmodernProphet]

seriously, BM....it's time to stop homeschooling the theology....you need to talk to a professional.....