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red states rule
10-29-2007, 06:27 AM
It is common knowledge the liberal media has given their full support to illegals, and use thier position to slander anyine who wants to enforce US immigration laws

Now the NY Times is attacking the word "illegal"


What Part of ‘Illegal’ Don’t You Understand?
By LAWRENCE DOWNES
Published: October 28, 2007
I am a human pileup of illegality. I am an illegal driver and an illegal parker and even an illegal walker, having at various times stretched or broken various laws and regulations that govern those parts of life. The offenses were trivial, and I feel sure I could endure the punishments — penalties and fines — and get on with my life. Nobody would deny me the chance to rehabilitate myself. Look at Martha Stewart, illegal stock trader, and George Steinbrenner, illegal campaign donor, to name two illegals whose crimes exceeded mine.

Good thing I am not an illegal immigrant. There is no way out of that trap. It’s the crime you can’t make amends for. Nothing short of deportation will free you from it, such is the mood of the country today. And that is a problem.

America has a big problem with illegal immigration, but a big part of it stems from the word “illegal.” It pollutes the debate. It blocks solutions. Used dispassionately and technically, there is nothing wrong with it. Used as an irreducible modifier for a large and largely decent group of people, it is badly damaging. And as a code word for racial and ethnic hatred, it is detestable.

“Illegal” is accurate insofar as it describes a person’s immigration status. About 60 percent of the people it applies to entered the country unlawfully. The rest are those who entered legally but did not leave when they were supposed to. The statutory penalties associated with their misdeeds are not insignificant, but neither are they criminal. You get caught, you get sent home.

Since the word modifies not the crime but the whole person, it goes too far. It spreads, like a stain that cannot wash out. It leaves its target diminished as a human, a lifetime member of a presumptive criminal class. People are often surprised to learn that illegal immigrants have rights. Really? Constitutional rights? But aren’t they illegal? Of course they have rights: they have the presumption of innocence and the civil liberties that the Constitution wisely bestows on all people, not just citizens.

Many people object to the alternate word “undocumented” as a politically correct euphemism, and they have a point. Someone who sneaked over the border and faked a Social Security number has little right to say: “Oops, I’m undocumented. I’m sure I have my papers here somewhere.”

But at least “undocumented” — and an even better word, “unauthorized” — contain the possibility of reparation and atonement, and allow for a sensible reaction proportional to the offense. The paralysis in Congress and the country over fixing our immigration laws stems from our inability to get our heads around the wrenching change involved in making an illegal person legal. Think of doing that with a crime, like cocaine dealing or arson. Unthinkable!

So people who want to enact sensible immigration policies to help everybody — to make the roads safer, as Gov. Eliot Spitzer would with his driver’s license plan, or to allow immigrants’ children to go to college or serve in the military — face the inevitable incredulity and outrage. How dare you! They’re illegal.

Meanwhile, out on the edges of the debate — edges that are coming closer to the mainstream every day — bigots pour all their loathing of Spanish-speaking people into the word. Rant about “illegals” — call them congenital criminals, lepers, thieves, unclean — and people will nod and applaud. They will send money to your Web site and heed your calls to deluge lawmakers with phone calls and faxes. Your TV ratings will go way up.

This is not only ugly, it is counterproductive, paralyzing any effort toward immigration reform. Comprehensive legislation in Congress and sensible policies at the state and local level have all been stymied and will be forever, as long as anything positive can be branded as “amnesty for illegals.”

We are stuck with a bogus, deceptive strategy — a 700-mile fence on a 2,000-mile border to stop a fraction of border crossers who are only 60 percent of the problem anyway, and scattershot raids to capture a few thousand members of a group of 12 million.

None of those enforcement policies have a trace of honesty or realism. At least they don’t reward illegals, and that, for now, is all this country wants.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/opinion/28sun4.html?_r=1&ex=1351224000&en=d2cf58ac6574138e&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&oref=slogin

Pale Rider
10-29-2007, 12:47 PM
The liberals already whipped most people into calling illegal aliens, illegal immigrants, which in itself is totally inaccurate and a oxymoron. One can not be illegal and an immigrant. Immigrants are here legally, so technically, there is no such thing possible as an illegal immigrant. They are illegal aliens, and that is what I will continue to call them. "ILLEGAL!" Now if the word "ILLEGAL" pisses them off, my fun just doubled.

retiredman
10-29-2007, 12:58 PM
The liberals already whipped most people into calling illegal aliens, illegal immigrants, which in itself is totally inaccurate and a oxymoron. One can not be illegal and an immigrant. Immigrants are here legally, so technically, there is no such thing possible as an illegal immigrant. They are illegal aliens, and that is what I will continue to call them. "ILLEGAL!" Now if the word "ILLEGAL" pisses them off, my fun just doubled.

I know of nothing in the definition of the word "immigrant" or "immigrate" that has any "legal" connotation to it. If I move here permanently from another country, I have "immigrated". If I don't follow the rules of the INS when I do so, I am not immigrating legally.

Pale Rider
10-29-2007, 01:48 PM
I know of nothing in the definition of the word "immigrant" or "immigrate" that has any "legal" connotation to it. If I move here permanently from another country, I have "immigrated". If I don't follow the rules of the INS when I do so, I am not immigrating legally.

If you are in this country and are from another country of origin, you are an alien. If you are in this country from another country of origin ILLEGALLY, then you are an illegal alien. Immigration is done legally. If you enter another country in any other manner other than following that country's immigration laws, it's illegal, and therefore no longer immigration. You're a criminal, not an immigrant.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/alien

retiredman
10-29-2007, 02:16 PM
If you are in this country and are from another country of origin, you are an alien. If you are in this country from another country of origin ILLEGALLY, then you are an illegal alien. Immigration is done legally. If you enter another country in any other manner other than following that country's immigration laws, it's illegal, and therefore no longer immigration. You're a criminal, not an immigrant.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/alien

the point is (and it really isn't all that big of a point, I will readily admit).... there were immigrants before there were immigration laws..... "immigration" is not a legal term

manu1959
10-29-2007, 02:19 PM
I know of nothing in the definition of the word "immigrant" or "immigrate" that has any "legal" connotation to it. If I move here permanently from another country, I have "immigrated". If I don't follow the rules of the INS when I do so, I am not immigrating legally.

i agree...you have have commited a felony and you are a criminal....you should be arrested....held without bail as you are a flight risk and tried for your crime...if found guilty .... deported....

Pale Rider
10-29-2007, 02:23 PM
the point is (and it really isn't all that big of a point, I will readily admit).... there were immigrants before there were immigration laws..... "immigration" is not a legal term

OK... there WAS immigration before there was immigration laws, but that's different now. I wasn't thinking of long ago.

Immigration does have legal attachments today.

manu1959
10-29-2007, 02:24 PM
OK... there WAS immigration before there was immigration laws, but that's different now. I wasn't thinking of long ago.

Immigration does have legal attachments today.

there was murder before there were murder laws....his argument is idiotic....

musicman
10-29-2007, 04:04 PM
I know of nothing in the definition of the word "immigrant" or "immigrate" that has any "legal" connotation to it. If I move here permanently from another country, I have "immigrated". If I don't follow the rules of the INS when I do so, I am not immigrating legally.

If one can be yanked off the street and deported as a matter of law, can he really be said to have moved here "permanently"? Rather presumptuous, I think - not to mention absurdly optimistic. Where is the "permanence" in hiding in the shadows, hoping to avoid detection? One can only be said to have "immigrated" successfully after he dies without being caught!

No - Pale rider was right the first time, I think. "Illegal immigrant" is an oxymoron. The word is "alien".

avatar4321
10-29-2007, 04:32 PM
its racist huh?

Why is it racist? because we want people to actually sustain the law? Because we want those who come to this country to not be second class citizens who speak a foreign language and cant assimilate?

Why is it racist to want and expect the law to be obeyed and want a better life for others?

Gunny
10-29-2007, 05:48 PM
its racist huh?

Why is it racist? because we want people to actually sustain the law? Because we want those who come to this country to not be second class citizens who speak a foreign language and cant assimilate?

Why is it racist to want and expect the law to be obeyed and want a better life for others?

It's just the typical, shame you into silence crowd's way of doing business. You can only call things what they are if approved by the secular progressive, politically correct wannabe-intellectual elite.

actsnoblemartin
10-29-2007, 06:00 PM
How can we have a free media, when it is corrupt?


It is common knowledge the liberal media has given their full support to illegals, and use thier position to slander anyine who wants to enforce US immigration laws

Now the NY Times is attacking the word "illegal"


What Part of ‘Illegal’ Don’t You Understand?
By LAWRENCE DOWNES
Published: October 28, 2007
I am a human pileup of illegality. I am an illegal driver and an illegal parker and even an illegal walker, having at various times stretched or broken various laws and regulations that govern those parts of life. The offenses were trivial, and I feel sure I could endure the punishments — penalties and fines — and get on with my life. Nobody would deny me the chance to rehabilitate myself. Look at Martha Stewart, illegal stock trader, and George Steinbrenner, illegal campaign donor, to name two illegals whose crimes exceeded mine.

Good thing I am not an illegal immigrant. There is no way out of that trap. It’s the crime you can’t make amends for. Nothing short of deportation will free you from it, such is the mood of the country today. And that is a problem.

America has a big problem with illegal immigration, but a big part of it stems from the word “illegal.” It pollutes the debate. It blocks solutions. Used dispassionately and technically, there is nothing wrong with it. Used as an irreducible modifier for a large and largely decent group of people, it is badly damaging. And as a code word for racial and ethnic hatred, it is detestable.

“Illegal” is accurate insofar as it describes a person’s immigration status. About 60 percent of the people it applies to entered the country unlawfully. The rest are those who entered legally but did not leave when they were supposed to. The statutory penalties associated with their misdeeds are not insignificant, but neither are they criminal. You get caught, you get sent home.

Since the word modifies not the crime but the whole person, it goes too far. It spreads, like a stain that cannot wash out. It leaves its target diminished as a human, a lifetime member of a presumptive criminal class. People are often surprised to learn that illegal immigrants have rights. Really? Constitutional rights? But aren’t they illegal? Of course they have rights: they have the presumption of innocence and the civil liberties that the Constitution wisely bestows on all people, not just citizens.

Many people object to the alternate word “undocumented” as a politically correct euphemism, and they have a point. Someone who sneaked over the border and faked a Social Security number has little right to say: “Oops, I’m undocumented. I’m sure I have my papers here somewhere.”

But at least “undocumented” — and an even better word, “unauthorized” — contain the possibility of reparation and atonement, and allow for a sensible reaction proportional to the offense. The paralysis in Congress and the country over fixing our immigration laws stems from our inability to get our heads around the wrenching change involved in making an illegal person legal. Think of doing that with a crime, like cocaine dealing or arson. Unthinkable!

So people who want to enact sensible immigration policies to help everybody — to make the roads safer, as Gov. Eliot Spitzer would with his driver’s license plan, or to allow immigrants’ children to go to college or serve in the military — face the inevitable incredulity and outrage. How dare you! They’re illegal.

Meanwhile, out on the edges of the debate — edges that are coming closer to the mainstream every day — bigots pour all their loathing of Spanish-speaking people into the word. Rant about “illegals” — call them congenital criminals, lepers, thieves, unclean — and people will nod and applaud. They will send money to your Web site and heed your calls to deluge lawmakers with phone calls and faxes. Your TV ratings will go way up.

This is not only ugly, it is counterproductive, paralyzing any effort toward immigration reform. Comprehensive legislation in Congress and sensible policies at the state and local level have all been stymied and will be forever, as long as anything positive can be branded as “amnesty for illegals.”

We are stuck with a bogus, deceptive strategy — a 700-mile fence on a 2,000-mile border to stop a fraction of border crossers who are only 60 percent of the problem anyway, and scattershot raids to capture a few thousand members of a group of 12 million.

None of those enforcement policies have a trace of honesty or realism. At least they don’t reward illegals, and that, for now, is all this country wants.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/opinion/28sun4.html?_r=1&ex=1351224000&en=d2cf58ac6574138e&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&oref=slogin

Kathianne
10-29-2007, 06:04 PM
its racist huh?

Why is it racist? because we want people to actually sustain the law? Because we want those who come to this country to not be second class citizens who speak a foreign language and cant assimilate?

Why is it racist to want and expect the law to be obeyed and want a better life for others?

I agree. For legal immigrants, there is no language requirement, yet historically they learn English or at least insist that their children do. The illegals are the ones that are not only refusing to learn, but insisting their children be taught, at tax payer expense, in their native tongue.

Pale Rider
10-29-2007, 06:09 PM
It's just the typical, shame you into silence crowd's way of doing business. You can only call things what they are if approved by the secular progressive, politically correct wannabe-intellectual elite.

And it's pathetic that there are actually dough heads out there that let them get away with such actions. Pin heads. Morons. Sheep.

actsnoblemartin
10-29-2007, 06:10 PM
Fuck The OLD York Times


And it's pathetic that there are actually dough heads out there that let them get away with such actions. Pin heads. Morons. Sheep.

avatar4321
10-29-2007, 09:53 PM
I agree. For legal immigrants, there is no language requirement, yet historically they learn English or at least insist that their children do. The illegals are the ones that are not only refusing to learn, but insisting their children be taught, at tax payer expense, in their native tongue.

and it puts them at a disadvantage.

avatar4321
10-29-2007, 09:54 PM
And it's pathetic that there are actually dough heads out there that let them get away with such actions. Pin heads. Morons. Sheep.

it really is a shame.:(

Gunny
10-29-2007, 10:21 PM
And it's pathetic that there are actually dough heads out there that let them get away with such actions. Pin heads. Morons. Sheep.

It DO get old.:laugh2:

red states rule
11-04-2007, 02:29 PM
And it's pathetic that there are actually dough heads out there that let them get away with such actions. Pin heads. Morons. Sheep.

The Dems (and some RINO's) see them as a new untapped voter block

When they get the illegals a drivers license - they can get them registered to vote

It is only a matter of time, before the illegals will be able to vote in our elections