goods pile up in as ression nears - worst since the 1930s? (merged)

[truthmatters]

Talk of Worst Recession Since the 1930s
By DAN DORFMAN
November 12, 2007


After what Los Angeles money manager Arnold Silver called "a brutal three days," the question is: What now for the market?

A Wall Street superstar this year who runs Balestra Capital Partners, Jim Melcher, says he's "worried about a recession. Not a normal one, but a very bad one. The worst since the 1930s. I expect we'll see clear signs of it in six months with a dramatic slowdown in the gross domestic product."

Balestra Capital, a $350 million New York hedge fund, was up 3% for the past three market sessions, when the Dow Jones Industrials, spearheaded by widespread declines in financial stocks and fears of more billion-dollar-plus asset write-downs, tumbled more than 677 points, or about 4.5%. The Nasdaq fared worse, skidding about 7%, triggered by across-the-board declines in those fast-stepping technology stocks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.nysun.com/article/66268

[truthmatters]

http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSN1246297620071112


People are not buying and this could be a bleak christmas.

[darin]

I think it's a little sad people have (no pun intended) bought into the lie we have to 'buy stuff' for people, simply because it's Christmas. :-/

Christmas isn't about 'giving' any longer...it's about 'buying'.

I know - that's an off-topic editorial on society. Sorry.

[truthmatters]

People here dont like to talk about the economy, I wonder why?

[darin]

I do! The economy is working fine for me...it'd be working a little better if Democrats would stop trying to take my money. :)

[truthmatters]

I will take that to mean you only care about yourself. You will care when the full impact is felt from the policy which wraught this on America. When you ignore the abuses of corporations on the unsuspecting American puplic and allow them to be used as pawns in a system they are used to trusting to protect them this is what you get. Your kids will have some questions for you later in life as to why you allowed their future prosperity to be raped.

[darin]

I will take that to mean you only care about yourself.

That's a ridiculous conclusion.


You will care when the full impact is felt from the policy which wraught this on America. When you ignore the abuses of corporations on the unsuspecting American puplic and allow them to be used as pawns in a system they are used to trusting to protect them this is what you get. Your kids will have some questions for you later in life as to why you allowed their future prosperity to be raped.

Can we make a rule against hyperbole and Hysteria and hysterics and alliteration and drama and rhetoric? If we make such rules, would you ever post anything? :)

[hjmick]

Doom and gloom, doom and gloom...

[truthmatters]

Oh I see.

The facts are doom and gloom but Bush lies about WMDs and AQ ties were just fine. Fear ,Fear , Fear. Its all the R party has left.

These are facts people. These are the REAL numbers our economy is facing.




Unsold goods are piling up in warehouses as the housing meltdown and soaring oil prices strain consumers, raising fears that already glum fourth-quarter growth prospects may tip toward recession.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke warned last week that economic growth would slow from the third quarter's surprisingly strong 3.9 percent annual rate. But recent data on inventories suggests the slowdown may be even more severe than the central bank has anticipated.

Wholesale inventories rose 0.8 percent in September, far greater than the 0.2 percent gain that analysts had expected, according to government data released last week. That will likely boost third-quarter growth even more, but take a toll on the current period as businesses work off the unsold goods.

The Institute for Supply Management's closely watched report on manufacturers told a similar story for October. ISM's survey, released earlier this month, showed that manufacturers were increasingly worried about customers' inventory levels, with stockpiles growing in a wide range of sectors, from plastics and rubber products to food and tobacco.

"The main source of concern at this point is how this inventory build will unwind in the fourth quarter," Merrill Lynch analyst David Rosenberg wrote in a note to clients.

Rosenberg estimated that revised third-quarter GDP data will show an extra $18 billion in inventory. An equal amount may be erased from the fourth quarter, which would take his GDP forecast "perilously close to flat, or even negative."

[Abbey Marie]

Doom and gloom, doom and gloom...

My thoughts exactly.

That, and I am, as always, enjoying planning my gift-giving to my loved ones for Christmas.

[Abbey Marie]

Oh I see.

The facts are doom and gloom but Bush lies about WMDs and AQ ties were just fine. Fear ,Fear , Fear. Its all the R party has left.
These are facts people. These are the REAL numbers our economy is facing.




Unsold goods are piling up in warehouses as the housing meltdown and soaring oil prices strain consumers, raising fears that already glum fourth-quarter growth prospects may tip toward recession.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke warned last week that economic growth would slow from the third quarter's surprisingly strong 3.9 percent annual rate. But recent data on inventories suggests the slowdown may be even more severe than the central bank has anticipated.

Wholesale inventories rose 0.8 percent in September, far greater than the 0.2 percent gain that analysts had expected, according to government data released last week. That will likely boost third-quarter growth even more, but take a toll on the current period as businesses work off the unsold goods.

The Institute for Supply Management's closely watched report on manufacturers told a similar story for October. ISM's survey, released earlier this month, showed that manufacturers were increasingly worried about customers' inventory levels, with stockpiles growing in a wide range of sectors, from plastics and rubber products to food and tobacco.

"The main source of concern at this point is how this inventory build will unwind in the fourth quarter," Merrill Lynch analyst David Rosenberg wrote in a note to clients.

Rosenberg estimated that revised third-quarter GDP data will show an extra $18 billion in inventory. An equal amount may be erased from the fourth quarter, which would take his GDP forecast "perilously close to flat, or even negative."

But sweetie, you are the one who is engaged in fear-mongering. In this case, trying to scare us into believing that our economy is all but collapsing.

[truthmatters]

Telling the truth is not fearmongering.

Telling lies is fear mongering.

Now tell me how many WMDs and AQ ties were found in Iraq?

Now tell me how many foreclosers there were in the last year over the previous year?

[Mr. P]

People are waiting for the sales...Retailers have created this 'sale' monster every year and now the public has finally caught on. People will buy, but NOT at full retail when they know the sale is coming...Hide an watch.

[truthmatters]

So you think its just the consumer holdig back for sales?

That is all this forecloseur, inventory glut is huh?

[hjmick]

Oh I see.

The facts are doom and gloom but Bush lies about WMDs and AQ ties were just fine. Fear ,Fear , Fear. Its all the R party has left.

These are facts people. These are the REAL numbers our economy is facing.




Unsold goods are piling up in warehouses as the housing meltdown and soaring oil prices strain consumers, raising fears that already glum fourth-quarter growth prospects may tip toward recession.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke warned last week that economic growth would slow from the third quarter's surprisingly strong 3.9 percent annual rate. But recent data on inventories suggests the slowdown may be even more severe than the central bank has anticipated.

Wholesale inventories rose 0.8 percent in September, far greater than the 0.2 percent gain that analysts had expected, according to government data released last week. That will likely boost third-quarter growth even more, but take a toll on the current period as businesses work off the unsold goods.

The Institute for Supply Management's closely watched report on manufacturers told a similar story for October. ISM's survey, released earlier this month, showed that manufacturers were increasingly worried about customers' inventory levels, with stockpiles growing in a wide range of sectors, from plastics and rubber products to food and tobacco.

"The main source of concern at this point is how this inventory build will unwind in the fourth quarter," Merrill Lynch analyst David Rosenberg wrote in a note to clients.

Rosenberg estimated that revised third-quarter GDP data will show an extra $18 billion in inventory. An equal amount may be erased from the fourth quarter, which would take his GDP forecast "perilously close to flat, or even negative."

We may very well be heading for a recession, but that happens. It may very well affect how people buy this holiday season. I just choose not to wallow in the mire. The economy may slow, we may end up in a recession, but guess what? It's happened before, it will happen again. In my lifetime it has happened more than once. It will recover, and we will all survive.

No, you don't "see". You can't "see" because you can't get past your blind hatred for a man you've never met long enough to not invoke his name in any discussion you have and lay the blame on him, which is ultimately where you will steer this thread, and that's fine, I'm okay with that. Really. I'm not overly thrilled with how his tenure has turned out myself.

As for your WMD/AQ statement, all I can say is, I for one never believed Iraq had any ties whatsoever with Al Queda. To the issue of WMDs, the administration and the intelligence agencies were wrong. It happens. But make sure you thank Saddam for clearing the issue up for everyone, because we all know we should have just taken his word for it that they no longer existed. Oh, and thank all of the Democrats who voted to give Bush the power to use force in Iraq.

Yeah, it's all Bush's fault.

[Mr. P]

So you think its just the consumer holdig back for sales?

That is all this forecloseur, inventory glut is huh?

The lenders made stupid sub-prime loans.

[darin]

The lenders made stupid sub-prime loans.




Yeah, it's all Bush's fault.



;)

[Mr. P]

;)

Sub-primes were being made before Bush.

[mrg666]

I think it's a little sad people have (no pun intended) bought into the lie we have to 'buy stuff' for people, simply because it's Christmas. :-/

Christmas isn't about 'giving' any longer...it's about 'buying'.

I know - that's an off-topic editorial on society. Sorry.

As previously mentioned ( somewhere) a lot of stores / companies rely on the xmas trade . i am no economist but from what i can gather it actually helps the economy , when folk spend (as well as bumping profits).


Sales analysis reports in recent months have produced a generally positive picture of the health of UK High Streets, despite the concerns stemming both from the overall global economic slowdown and from the effects of the 11 September attacks.

[hjmick]

So you think its just the consumer holdig back for sales?

That is all this forecloseur, inventory glut is huh?

No, consumers are holding back until they have a better picture of what's happening with their money.

As for the foreclosures, too many people making bad decisions in a hot and infamously fickle real estate market. Too many financial institutions taking advantage of an over eager populace.

At some point, don't forget to factor in personal responsibility into the economic equation.

Look, this may very well be the worst holiday season in decades, Perhaps it will give people a chance to reconnect with what Christmas is all about. It may be that we are heading into the worst recession since the 1930s, but I'm sure that we will all survive. Seeing that there is little or nothing that we can do about it, I don't see the purpose in worrying about it and getting our panties in a bunch.

Besides, aren't you looking forward to President Hillary or Obama taking office and fixing everything that is wrong with this country, everything you have complained about for the last eight years, fixing the Middle East and bring our troops home, curing cancer and the common cold, and then logging onto Debate Policy and gloating like never before?

[Trigg]

I do believe there is a recession coming and possibly a bad one.

For years there have been articles and warnings about our "need it now" culture. Americans aren't saving. We're in credit card debt up to our ears, the last figure I saw was $13,000.

People buys things they can't afford...buying houses with interest only loans or balloon payments.

Well finally, keeping up with the Joneses, is coming back to bite people in the ass.

No one has a gun to their head making them buy the next video game or that big house they can't do without. The banks are partly to blaim for the big bust that is coming, but people need to take personnal responsibility also.

[truthmatters]

And the government over the last few years ignored the explosion in subprime loans which is the major cause.

There were sub prime loans being written for years but it was the explosion which caused this. The govenrment refused to address the explosion and they could have stopped it with legislation but refused to do so because it was fueling the economy. Its the Republicans fault guys they had all the control and failed to act.

[darin]

And the government over the last few years ignored the explosion in subprime loans which is the major cause.

There were sub prime loans being written for years but it was the explosion which caused this. The govenrment refused to address the explosion and they could have stopped it with legislation but refused to do so because it was fueling the economy. Its the Republicans fault guys they had all the control and failed to act.

You REALLY ARE a communist, aren't you? You won't be happy with our government until it ABSOLUTELY controls every facet of our lives.

What caused the recession when Clinton was in office?

[truthmatters]

You will excuse anything the Republicans do or fail to do huh?

[Trigg]

And the government over the last few years ignored the explosion in subprime loans which is the major cause.

There were sub prime loans being written for years but it was the explosion which caused this. The govenrment refused to address the explosion and they could have stopped it with legislation but refused to do so because it was fueling the economy. Its the Republicans fault guys they had all the control and failed to act.


Why don't you just start posting.

The republicans did it....the republicans did it.The republicans did it....the republicans did it.The republicans did it....the republicans did it.The republicans did it....the republicas did it. The republicans did it....the republicans did it.

People need to take responsibility for their own stupid mistakes. You dems have a hard time with that. Whenever something goes wrong it's someone elses fault. Banks gave loans to people they knew couldn't afford it, the people knew they couldn't afford it and did it anyway. END OF STORY

[Mr. P]

And the government over the last few years ignored the explosion in subprime loans which is the major cause.

There were sub prime loans being written for years but it was the explosion which caused this. The govenrment refused to address the explosion and they could have stopped it with legislation but refused to do so because it was fueling the economy. Its the Republicans fault guys they had all the control and failed to act.

Gov should keep their fingers outta private business...period...that means NO bailouts either.

[Trigg]

You will excuse anything the Republicans do or fail to do huh?

Your one to throw stones since your over there doing back flips to excuse the dems.

[Monkeybone]

Just another thread to prove that Truthmatters is like a German porn star's mouth.......full of shit.


Oooooooo! I went there!

[truthmatters]

And so it begins.

This is how the right will claim that the Republican party will get no blame for their policy or lack there of during the YEARS they had total control over our government.

[Trigg]

And so it begins.

This is how the right will claim that the Republican party will get no blame for their policy or lack there of during the YEARS they had total control over our government.

What??

No comment of personnal responsibility???

[Kathianne]

I thought this was probably the culprit, consumers expect bargains at Christmas. It's not that the retailers won't sell, it's their profits that take the hit. Same results, but different cause, the retailers did it to themselves:

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/11/08/retail-holiday-forecast-markets-equity-cx_tr_1108markets44.html



Discounting Christmas
Tom Van Riper, 11.08.07, 7:21 PM ET


Retailers can go ahead and blame a lackluster October on the warm weather — that doesn't soften the fact that the holiday season is shaping up to be the worst in five years.

More longtime industry consultants are predicting lower holiday sales growth than the 4% projected by the National Retail Federation. First Loeb & Associates President Walter Loeb, citing a gradual buildup in inventories, forecast a 3% to 3.5% season. Now industry guru Britt Beemer, head of consumer behavior consultant America's Research Group, is even dourer. He thinks growth will come in at 2% or below.

Why? Bigger Christmas discounts than ever. Nearly half the consumers his company recently polled said they would wait for stores to come out with 50%-off sales before buying...

[truthmatters]

How many voters over the next decade or so do you think will buy the idea of your NO responsibility of six years of completely republican rule for the problems which arrising out of their policy.

If we had just had six years of completely democratic rule who would you blame for the current mess America is in?

[Monkeybone]

And so it begins.

This is how the right will claim that the Republican party will get no blame for their policy or lack there of during the YEARS they had total control over our government.
What the fuck does the government have to do with PRIVATE business practices. Yoiu are such an idiot. The BANKS are the ones that loaned in a preditory style not the government. This housing buble has been a long time in the making and it was bound to bust eventually. I just wish it would have held on for a couple more years so that a Dem would have been in office to take the blame but wait you would have said it was the prvious admin. doing.

This current economy has been a long time in the making and it started in the Clinton years with a Dem congress. You are such a fucking retard....:slap:

[red states rule]

Why don't you just start posting.

The republicans did it....the republicans did it.The republicans did it....the republicans did it.The republicans did it....the republicans did it.The republicans did it....the republicas did it. The republicans did it....the republicans did it.

People need to take responsibility for their own stupid mistakes. You dems have a hard time with that. Whenever something goes wrong it's someone elses fault. Banks gave loans to people they knew couldn't afford it, the people knew they couldn't afford it and did it anyway. END OF STORY

For years the left whined how the crdit requirement were to tight.

If people do not read their mortgage papers, whose fault is that?

The dirty little secret for people defaulting on their mortage is not only the principal and interest payment - it is also because of higher property taxes that causes your overall payment to increase

If you have an escrow account you can see your payments jump by a couple hundred bucks per month

Which states do I see the biggest jump, whcih have the highest taxes? NY. NJ, CA, WI, and MI

[hjmick]

If we had just had six years of completely democratic rule who would you blame for the current mess America is in?

I would blame the Democrats. I would blame the Republicans. I would blame the government in general. I would blame people who run up amazing debt in an attempt to live beyond their means. I would blame financial institutions who finance loans to risky customers. The list of culprits to blame is long and includes people of every political persuasion.

It's called "The Big Picture."

[truthmatters]

What the fuck does the government have to do with PRIVATE business practices. Yoiu are such an idiot. The BANKS are the ones that loaned in a preditory style not the government. This housing buble has been a long time in the making and it was bound to bust eventually. I just wish it would have held on for a couple more years so that a Dem would have been in office to take the blame but wait you would have said it was the prvious admin. doing.

This current economy has been a long time in the making and it started in the Clinton years with a Dem congress. You are such a fucking retard....:slap:

You will excuse anything they do or fail to do huh?

I will be watching people like you writhe in pain to figure out a way to blame all the Bush and R congress fallout on Clinton and the next Dem admin. Its going to be really sad. I just dont undestand why people love the R party more than their country and their own interest?

[Trigg]

I would blame the Democrats. I would blame the Republicans. I would blame the government in general. I would blame people who run up amazing debt in an attempt to live beyond their means. I would blame financial institutions who finance loans to risky customers. The list of culprits to blame is long and includes people of every political persuasion.

It's called "The Big Picture."

Sadly the only thing that crosses liesmatters mind is

The republicans did it....the republicans did it.The republicans did it....the republicans did it.The republicans did it....the republicans did it.The republicans did it....the republicas did it. The republicans did it....the republicans did it.

[Trigg]

You will excuse anything they do or fail to do huh?

I will be watching people like you writhe in pain to figure out a way to blame all the Bush and R congress fallout on Clinton and the next Dem admin. Its going to be really sad. I just dont undestand why people love the R party more than their country and their own interest?

personnal responsibility

[manu1959]

People here dont like to talk about the economy, I wonder why?

well i specialize in multi family housing condos and the like .....

we have grown by 15% per year over the past 3 years and are on pace to do it again this year .....

so if the economy sucks no one has told my clients .... which just hapen to be the fortune 500 of public and private home builders ....

[Nukeman]

I think truthdoesntmatter is a Hillary plant!!! Or maybe she is Hillary!!!!:poke:

[Nukeman]

personnal responsibility
You should know by know that she doesn't believe in that. Its always the governmant fault....... ohhh wait I mena the republicans fault.......:slap:

[manu1959]

I think truthdoesntmatter is a Hillary plant!!! Or maybe she is Hillary!!!!:poke:

see other thread on tokyo rose.....

[bullypulpit]

I do! The economy is working fine for me...it'd be working a little better if Democrats would stop trying to take my money. :)

They just want to pay off the debt Chimpy McPresident has run up financing his dirty little war with Iraq, the TOTAL costs of which are expected to EXCEED $1.6 <font color=red><b>TRILLION</b></font>. And given that China owns a large chunk of that debt, we'll be dancing to their tune for a looooong time to come. So much for national security.

[truthmatters]

Personal attacks in the face of facts?

Is that all you have?

[red states rule]

They just want to pay off the debt Chimpy McPresident has run up financing his dirty little war with Iraq, the TOTAL costs of which are expected to EXCEED $1.6 <font color=red><b>TRILLION</b></font>. And given that China owns a large chunk of that debt, we'll be dancing to their tune for a looooong time to come. So much for national security.

and libs have spent $9 trillion on social programs

now your Presidential candidates have promised $700 billion in new spending (and keep the books open)

I understand your biggest fear on Iraq is happening. The US militray is winning and great progress is being made. That is a big political problem for the Dems

[darin]

Did I miss the explanation of what caused CLINTON's recession?

[Nukeman]

Personal attacks in the face of facts?

Is that all you have?
No personal resonsibilty..... do.....you.......understand.......I......typed.... .....it.......slow........for.......you.......OK.. ......

Do you live within your means or are one of those that spends,spends, spends...????? If not what are you doing to help the economy???? Or are you just bitching about it!!!!!:poke:

Did you try to stop the banks from preditory lending practicises or did you just sit back and ride the housing bubble???


WHAT DID YOU DO TO STOP IT ????????

[Nukeman]

Did I miss the explanation of what caused CLINTON's recession?Hey you know truthdoesntmatter only reports that of the republicans. She also forgets that the economy was tanking when Bush took over and the republicans were able to pull it out of the fire for a few years that is untill we have a Dem held congress....HMMMMMMMMMM........... coincidence??????????

[Monkeybone]

I think truthdoesntmatter is a Hillary plant!!! Or maybe she is Hillary!!!!:poke:

that why she gets so defensive when we talk about Bill's run at office?

[truthmatters]

Did I miss the explanation of what caused CLINTON's recession?



What Clinton recession?


http://www.icmarc.org/xp/rc/marketview/chart/2003/20030718postwarrecessions.html

[theHawk]

Talk of Worst Recession Since the 1930s
By DAN DORFMAN
November 12, 2007


After what Los Angeles money manager Arnold Silver called "a brutal three days," the question is: What now for the market?

A Wall Street superstar this year who runs Balestra Capital Partners, Jim Melcher, says he's "worried about a recession. Not a normal one, but a very bad one. The worst since the 1930s. I expect we'll see clear signs of it in six months with a dramatic slowdown in the gross domestic product."

Balestra Capital, a $350 million New York hedge fund, was up 3% for the past three market sessions, when the Dow Jones Industrials, spearheaded by widespread declines in financial stocks and fears of more billion-dollar-plus asset write-downs, tumbled more than 677 points, or about 4.5%. The Nasdaq fared worse, skidding about 7%, triggered by across-the-board declines in those fast-stepping technology stocks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.nysun.com/article/66268

And your solution is what? Government control over the finacial and housing markets?

[hjmick]

Did I miss the explanation of what caused CLINTON's recession?

Everyone knows that was caused by Bush running for office and subsequently winning the election. No need for discussion.

(Bush stole the election! clock starts...now...)

[truthmatters]

Are you people aware that our government is already involved in laws to protect consumers?



http://www.bankaholic.com/finance/federal-laws-governing-mortgage-lending/

[Nukeman]

Are you people aware that our government is already involved in laws to protect consumers?



http://www.bankaholic.com/finance/federal-laws-governing-mortgage-lending/
NO your the only one in the whole F***ing country that actually know anything!!!!! Or at least in your little world you are.....:poke::slap:

[AFbombloader]

Telling the truth is not fearmongering.

Now tell me how many WMDs and AQ ties were found in Iraq?

Now tell me how many foreclosers there were in the last year over the previous year?


What does the first part have to do with the economy? There are other places to debate that.

Is the governments fault that people defaulted or mortgages? That people got into ARM's that they knew could have a higher percentage and therefore a higher payment? Why is this all the governments fault? I just baught my first home two years ago. Do you know why I waited? Beacuse I would not have been able to afford it prior. People are responsible for their ownfinancial issues, stop blaming the government or trying to have the government bail them out. I make my house payment, I don't want to make someone else's too.

AF:salute:

[truthmatters]

I have been posting facts and you have been posting petty personal insults.

[Monkeybone]

Are you people aware that our government is already involved in laws to protect consumers?



http://www.bankaholic.com/finance/federal-laws-governing-mortgage-lending/

those are to protect and make sure racism and what-not doesn't happen.

the question is, should they control it?

[truthmatters]

What does the first part have to do with the economy? There are other places to debate that.

Is the governments fault that people defaulted or mortgages? That people got into ARM's that they knew could have a higher percentage and therefore a higher payment? Why is this all the governments fault? I just baught my first home two years ago. Do you know why I waited? Beacuse I would not have been able to afford it prior. People are responsible for their ownfinancial issues, stop blaming the government or trying to have the government bail them out. I make my house payment, I don't want to make someone else's too.

AF:salute:

It is the governments fault for not reacting in a reasoned manner to the threat to the economy presented by the lending institutions and their attempts to cash in on the consumers trust of their institutions. You can pretend its all the consumers fault and that will get you nothing but an economy in which no one buys any big ticket item unless they can pay in full. Think hard on that one and realise what it would mean to the American economy.

[Monkeybone]

It is the governments fault for not reacting in a reasoned manner to the threat to the economy presented by the lending institutions and their attempts to cash in on the consumers trust of their institutions. You can pretend its all the consumers fault and that will get you nothing but an economy in which no one buys any big ticket item unless they can pay in full. Think hard on that one and realise what it would mean to the American economy.

again, so you want them to have the control to tell ppl no? that they can't spend their money? you say that you don't want ppl waiting until they can buy it right out, but if they don't.....wait...then they have to get loans...so wouldn't that put us back in the same bucket? should we only get loans from the gov then? they prob have plenty of "free" money handy that they can write an IOU on in the Social Security account.

in the end it is everyday Americans fault for thinking "Yah, it will be tight, but i can afford that payment"

[hjmick]

Caveat emptor.

[theHawk]

It is the governments fault for not reacting in a reasoned manner to the threat to the economy presented by the lending institutions and their attempts to cash in on the consumers trust of their institutions.

First of all, what exactly do you mean by "their attempts to cash in on the consumers trust of their institutions". How exactly does a mortgage lender "cash in" on a customer that defaults on their loan? And what does the consumer's "trust" of their lender have to do with anything?

Maybe after you explain how banks cash in on consumers trust, I'll be able to explain how it is or isn't the government's fault for not reacting to that "threat."

[gabosaurus]

Our economy would be in a lot better shape if more adults were educated enough to know how to spell and use proper grammar.
As opposed to knowing only how to use guns.

[theHawk]

Our economy would be in a lot better shape if more adults were educated enough to know how to spell and use proper grammar.
As opposed to knowing only how to use guns.


Haven't you heard. Its more important for students to protest Bush during school hours than it is for students to learn to read.

[hjmick]

Our economy would be in a lot better shape if more adults were educated enough to know how to spell and use proper grammar.
As opposed to knowing only how to use guns.

Well hot damn! I must be a freaking genius because I can do all three!

[April15]

I think it's a little sad people have (no pun intended) bought into the lie we have to 'buy stuff' for people, simply because it's Christmas. :-/

Christmas isn't about 'giving' any longer...it's about 'buying'.

I know - that's an off-topic editorial on society. Sorry.I agree! The giving was of ones self through a hand made gift to express the endearment.

[Monkeybone]

Our economy would be in a lot better shape if more adults were educated enough to know how to spell and use proper grammar.
As opposed to knowing only how to use guns.

No, it would be better if we only used guns. That way when a loan comes due or what not, we can have an old Wild West duel at high noon. The winner gets the loser's crap! That way they could liquidate it and get their money. Problem solved. :cheers2:

[Abbey Marie]

I just got back from a shopping trip to Kohl's. The parking lot was 3/4 full, it was so crowded in the store I couldn't get a cart, and the checkout lines were long. So, my "personal poll" says that with good sales, people will be shopping as much as ever for Christmas.
And to AFBombloader: I have to rep you for the avi! :thumb: :beer:

[AFbombloader]

How many voters over the next decade or so do you think will buy the idea of your NO responsibility of six years of completely republican rule for the problems which arrising out of their policy.

If we had just had six years of completely democratic rule who would you blame for the current mess America is in?

How many years did we have complete democrat control? I'm sure 1933-1945 and 1961-1969 had no issues with anything at all. And 1993-1995 didn't lay any groundwork for any problems we had at all.

Quit trying to blame the government for personal choices.

AF:salute:

[Abbey Marie]

Our economy would be in a lot better shape if more adults were educated enough to know how to spell and use proper grammar.
As opposed to knowing only how to use guns.

To excellent writing skills! The rarest of commodities. :beer:

[truthmatters]

First of all, what exactly do you mean by "their attempts to cash in on the consumers trust of their institutions". How exactly does a mortgage lender "cash in" on a customer that defaults on their loan? And what does the consumer's "trust" of their lender have to do with anything?

Maybe after you explain how banks cash in on consumers trust, I'll be able to explain how it is or isn't the government's fault for not reacting to that "threat."


They make the loans then they bundle them and sell them.

The majority of consumers who sign a loan have never read it in its entirety. Even if they did would they understand it? You people like to pretend that its all the consumers fault. If we truely had a system in which people had to understand the legal ramifications of all the documentation of every contract they signed we would have a next to dead economy.

There are laws governing lending. They like all laws are changed and modified throughout history to protect the vulnerable not just to help the vulernable but to keep the ecomy steaming along. If you were to remove these protections or ignore the need for timely modifications (as the R government over the last few years has done) you put the economy at risk because the consumer loses trust and wont take out loans which steam the economy.


So blame the individual consumer and let them sink. Tell people if they are too stupid to understand what they are signing to not take out any loans. What you will get is an entire generation of Americans who will not sign loans. They will not buy houses and only buy wares they can pay for in full. This will KILL the American economy.

[AFbombloader]

It is the governments fault for not reacting in a reasoned manner to the threat to the economy presented by the lending institutions and their attempts to cash in on the consumers trust of their institutions. You can pretend its all the consumers fault and that will get you nothing but an economy in which no one buys any big ticket item unless they can pay in full. Think hard on that one and realise what it would mean to the American economy.

It is not the responsibility of the government! If you are stupid enough to break your finances purchasing anything, it is your damn fault! I think the country worked very well when people did have to save and regulate their spending habits prior to a "big ticket item". There is way to much credit out there and that is the problem right now. I do not want "Big Brother" to be there telling me what to do. Do you? Wait, you do.

AF:salute:

[truthmatters]

It is not the responsibility of the government! If you are stupid enough to break your finances purchasing anything, it is your damn fault! I think the country worked very well when people did have to save and regulate their spending habits prior to a "big ticket item". There is way to much credit out there and that is the problem right now. I do not want "Big Brother" to be there telling me what to do. Do you? Wait, you do.

AF:salute:


How old are you?

You seem to have NO understanding of real history and or economics?

Do you have the faintest idea how screwed our economy would be?




OK I just checked and you are 37 and in the military. You work for the government and yet hate it ....how funny.

[AFbombloader]

The majority of consumers who sign a loan have never read it in its entirety. Even if they did would they understand it?



Again, their fault. If you sign anything without fully undderstanding what you are getting yourself into, I have absolutely no pity for you.

AF:salute:

[AFbombloader]

How old are you?

You seem to have NO understanding of real history and or economics?

Do you have the faintest idea how screwed our economy would be?




OK I just checked and you are 37 and in the military. You work for the government and yet hate it ....how funny.

I do have an idea of how this economy works. I feel that if I have control of my money, and can chose how I spend it the country will be fine. Do you think that if there were more government run programs everything would be better?
I do not think that be saying individuals should be responsible for their own actions I am saying anything against the government I have dedicated 19 years of my life to. I ablsoutely love this country, and have no idea where you come off saying I hate it. Where did you get that out of anything I posted at any time? I have not made any personal coments about you and will ask you to keep to the subject at hand and not attack me.
Yes, I am 37, and in the military. You do not have any information on yourself in your profile. Trying to hide something?

AF:salute:

[Monkeybone]

TM your faster than normal thinking must be adding words or something to AF's post. plz explain your conclusions.

[AFbombloader]

TM your faster than normal thinking must be adding words or something to AF's post. plz explain your conclusions.

She went away. No surprise.

AF:salute:

[Mr. P]

The sad thing is there really are folks that think (or don't think at all) like TM..and they fall right into the lap of the Democrats.

[Abbey Marie]

The sad thing is there really are folks that think (or don't think at all) like TM..and they fall right into the lap of the Democrats.

So that's what happened to Ms. Lewinsky!

[Trigg]

Not to many years ago a person had to apply for credit. If they wanted their limit raised they had to be a good customer...one who paid their bill on time.

Now, especially this time of year, I get 2-3 credit applications in the mail every week. They advertise on TV. All the while the media is crying about personnal debt being "higher than ever".

If people went back to only buying what they can afford we would be better off. Americans arn't saving enough. We don't, as a group have enough in savings if something goes wrong.


The country is full of people who don't know how to manage their debt and live beyond their means. Now they are paying the price and Liesmatters wants to blaim the gov.

Personnal responsibility

[theHawk]

They make the loans then they bundle them and sell them.

The majority of consumers who sign a loan have never read it in its entirety. Even if they did would they understand it? You people like to pretend that its all the consumers fault. If we truely had a system in which people had to understand the legal ramifications of all the documentation of every contract they signed we would have a next to dead economy.

There are laws governing lending. They like all laws are changed and modified throughout history to protect the vulnerable not just to help the vulernable but to keep the ecomy steaming along. If you were to remove these protections or ignore the need for timely modifications (as the R government over the last few years has done) you put the economy at risk because the consumer loses trust and wont take out loans which steam the economy.





I know they bundle them, but that has nothing to do with what you said. My guess is you were just trying to sound smart when all you did was speak gibberish.

And people should read their entire contract, and have portions they don't understand explained to them. I signed such a contract, and I knew damned well what I was getting into. Its not difficult at all to understand how much you have to pay each month and year, and how your rate might change. If the person can't make the payments then it is mainly his fault, but also the fault of the bank for backing such a person. I don't see where a third person(the goverment) would help when the lender is making the decision to back the person. And I damned sure know the government has no business looking into everyone's financial affairs to make sure they are making their payments...thats strictly between the lender and borrower.

"If you were to remove these protections or ignore the need for timely modifications (as the R government over the last few years has done) you put the economy at risk because the consumer loses trust and wont take out loans which steam the economy."

Could you please specify what "protections" the "R government" removed and how that would effect the agreements between lenders and borrowers?




So blame the individual consumer and let them sink. Tell people if they are too stupid to understand what they are signing to not take out any loans. What you will get is an entire generation of Americans who will not sign loans. They will not buy houses and only buy wares they can pay for in full. This will KILL the American economy.
Again, who if not the borrower is there to blame if they don't make their payments and default on a loan?
An entire generation of Americans that will not sign for a loan? You make it sound as if the lenders are somehow ripping off the borrowers and thus they won't 'trust' the lenders. The lenders make the big money when the borrowers pay back the money...not when they default.

[bullypulpit]

and libs have spent $9 trillion on social programs

now your Presidential candidates have promised $700 billion in new spending (and keep the books open)

I understand your biggest fear on Iraq is happening. The US militray is winning and great progress is being made. That is a big political problem for the Dems

Nice little tap dance there Red. When faced with unpleasant facts you throw up a spew of misinformation and try to change the subject.

[Hobbit]

Well, I'm here late, but is it too late to point out that the media runs this story almost every year leading up to Black Friday? There's always 2 stories about shopping this time of year.

1) How many shoppers/stampedes/casualties/sales are expected on that day and
2) Predicting tragedy and the death of the small retailer in America

It's not even Thanksgiving yet. When the Black Friday sales start, those numbers will jump, and the media will go back to reporting how some fascist wants to put Christmas lights on city hall or how what the top ten gifts are, like they did last year, and the year before that, and so on...

[Kathianne]

Well, I'm here late, but is it too late to point out that the media runs this story almost every year leading up to Black Friday? There's always 2 stories about shopping this time of year.

1) How many shoppers/stampedes/casualties/sales are expected on that day and
2) Predicting tragedy and the death of the small retailer in America

It's not even Thanksgiving yet. When the Black Friday sales start, those numbers will jump, and the media will go back to reporting how some fascist wants to put Christmas lights on city hall or how what the top ten gifts are, like they did last year, and the year before that, and so on...

As I said, the retailers ARE taking a hit at Christmas, as they set it up themselves years back. When I was 'a kid' Christmas was an 'expensive time', bargains had to be hunted for. Now many won't buy if the price isn't cut in half. Oh well.

On the other hand, online sales are way up and projected to jump further. These are not primarily bargain hunters, rather those that hate malls.

[truthmatters]

I just fininshed cleaning my garage. Looks much better now and I am one step closer to being ready for the slew of relatives I will have showing up from Thanksgiving to Super bowl.

If you people really think forcing Americans to get degrees in law before they take out a loan you really do not understand how an economy would be burdened by such foolishness. I am sure any of you who have taken out a home loan or purchased a car with credit read the entire loan and understood every word of it right? When you do not oversee industries they will find ways to take advantage of their customers. This has been proven over and over in history. I wish people would just be honest for a change and quit pretending this is the fault of the individuals who took out these loans.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17738920/

[manu1959]

I just fininshed cleaning my garage. Looks much better now and I am one step closer to being ready for the slew of relatives I will have showing up from Thanksgiving to Super bowl.

If you people really think forcing Americans to get degrees in law before they take out a loan you really do not understand how an economy would be burdened by such foolishness. I am sure any of you who have taken out a home loan or purchased a car with credit read the entire loan and understood every word of it right? When you do not oversee industries they will find ways to take advantage of their customers. This has been proven over and over in history. I wish people would just be honest for a change and quit pretending this is the fault of the individuals who took out these loans.

really....who's fault is it these people can not figure out how to live within their means ..... did they not go to public school for 10 years and learn how to add..... is it not common knowledge that credit card rates are a scam...is it not common knowledge that if you can not pay your mortgage they will take your house.....is it not common knowledge that if something sounds too go to be true it is....

[Trigg]

I just fininshed cleaning my garage. Looks much better now and I am one step closer to being ready for the slew of relatives I will have showing up from Thanksgiving to Super bowl.

If you people really think forcing Americans to get degrees in law before they take out a loan you really do not understand how an economy would be burdened by such foolishness. I am sure any of you who have taken out a home loan or purchased a car with credit read the entire loan and understood every word of it right? When you do not oversee industries they will find ways to take advantage of their customers. This has been proven over and over in history. I wish people would just be honest for a change and quit pretending this is the fault of the individuals who took out these loans.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17738920/

It's called reading the small print.

Did you ever get a prize offer in the mail only to read it and discover that all your getting is so much money off of a prize???????

People will get burned with this housing bust, next time they'll know better and won't over extend themselves.

[truthmatters]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a8VFwgtdQ9FM&refer=home

Read about it and you will understand it better.

If America is unable to protect the lending consumer this is what we get.

Have you ever taken out a loan?

[manu1959]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a8VFwgtdQ9FM&refer=home

Read about it and you will understand it better.

If America is unable to protect the lending consumer this is what we get.

Have you ever taken out a loan?

i understand the issue just fine you condescending twit....

i believe in survival of the fittest.....

[truthmatters]

i understand the issue just fine you condescending twit....

i believe in survival of the fittest.....

By saying this you PROVE you do not understand it.

[manu1959]

By saying this you PROVE you do not understand it.

and you prove my point as well.....

[Kathianne]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a8VFwgtdQ9FM&refer=home

Read about it and you will understand it better.

If America is unable to protect the lending consumer this is what we get.

Have you ever taken out a loan?

Sorry tm, the problem starts and ends with the consumer:


While banks are overseen by federal and state regulators, mortgage brokers and independent sales outfits are overseen by a menagerie of state authorities, some of which also look after barbers and masseuses.The problem with this is the largest group to lead consumers into problems were the banks. Thus the problems with Citigroup, Bank of America, etc. All the regulators did not protect the consumer.

[manu1959]

Sorry tm, the problem starts and ends with the consumer:

The problem with this is the largest group to lead consumers into problems were the banks. Thus the problems with Citigroup, Bank of America, etc. All the regulators did not protect the consumer.

i agree.....you can not protect people from themselves.....some people just like to make bad decisions....and then blame others for their misfortune.....

[Trigg]

By saying this you PROVE you do not understand it.

That's right oh brilliant one, we of lesser intelligence just can't understand how things work in the big bad world.


By the way I believe Manu owns his own business and is the owner of a damn nice car. So, ya, he's taken out a loan or two.

[manu1959]

That's right oh brilliant one, we of lesser intelligence just can't understand how things work in the big bad world.
By the way I believe Manu owns his own business and is the owner of a damn nice car. So, ya, he's taken out a loan or two.

you must understand they are smarter than us and they need to protect us....for we are too stupid to figure it out.....they want to take care of everyone and protect everyone from all the "bad" things in life....

[truthmatters]

Then tell me why this is a problem that only took place in the years of 2003-2006?

Why have we not always had this problem even though the loans were available for many years?



http://www.bestsyndication.com/?q=100907_best_mortgage_interest_rates.htm


The subprime problem is not only the result of poor alertness of the mortgage lenders in granting a mortgage loan, but also it has been a consequence of wrong structuring of the loan products by investment banks. The investment banks in this case had failed to judge the amount of risk a subprime loan carries as a collateral.

Along with these joined a number of factors like a sharp bump up of mortgage interest rates. This rise is estimated as 200 base points in 2 years. The real estate industry also suffered a breakage by falling sales and dropping price rates. The process of economic deceleration was also showing its effects. And finally the flexibility allowed in the sub prime mortgage lending qualifications and process completed the preparation ground for the forthcoming blizzard.

Defaults in terms of total credit granted for subprime loans have been estimated falling from a 14.86% at the beginning of 2002 to 10.58% at the end of 2004. But from then on a sharp rise to 13.93%, as estimated at the beginning of 2007, in a very short period demonstrates the easy availability of the subprime loan, preparing the factors of the current subprime mess. Along with the growing availability of the subprime loan also increased the cost of risk ratio from 14% at the beginning of 2006 to 32% at the middle of the 2007. However, the cost of risk percentage is currently sobering down.

The US mortgage market is valued at $10,000 billion. In this figure, the subprime market comprises a 13% share. The gross domestic product or the GDP of the United States is incorporated with a 9% subprime market share. This amplifies the gravity of the subprime mortgage mess. It is not only the mortgage market, the banking and lending industry, but the whole national economy is suffering from this subprime tantrum. The consequence is worldwide.

[Kathianne]

Then tell me why this is a problem that only took place in the years of 2003-2006?

Why have we not always had this problem even though the loans were available for many years?

We did. Difference was real estate was booming, so those in trouble refinanced or took out equity. It's what lead to their current problems.What part of that do you fail to understand? Zero downpayments is very recent and a very bad idea-if prices drop, there is no leeway.

[Trigg]

Then tell me why this is a problem that only took place in the years of 2003-2006?

Why have we not always had this problem even though the loans were available for many years?

This problem has been on the verge of happening since the banks introduced interrest only loans and people bought into it. Balloon payments have been around for a lot longer than 3 years, but only in the past few years have gas priced been going through the roof.

I will say the fault also lies with the banks for giving people loans who never would have qualified in the past. The credit card companies are also at fault somewhat for giving anyone and everyone credit no matter their past history.

But.......people are, in the end, responsibile for their own stupid choices. Next time they go to buy a house I bet they make damn sure they can afford it.

$13,000 that's the national average for personnal credit card debt. That is no ones fault but the consumer. They made the choice to put the plastic on the counter

[truthmatters]

We did. Difference was real estate was booming, so those in trouble refinanced or took out equity. It's what lead to their current problems.What part of that do you fail to understand? Zero downpayments is very recent and a very bad idea-if prices drop, there is no leeway.


To blame only the consumer is an oversimplistic and silly notion that NONE of the ecomonic experts argee with.

[Trigg]

To blame only the consumer is an oversimplistic and silly notion that NONE of the ecomonic experts argee with.

Do you think they carry any blaim for their situation????????

I'm asking because all you seem to be saying is "it's someone elses fault".

[Nukeman]

[QUOTE=truthmatters;153688]Then tell me why this is a problem that only took place in the years of 2003-2006?

Why have we not always had this problem even though the loans were available for many years?



http://www.bestsyndication.com/?q=100907_best_mortgage_interest_rates.htm[quote


Hey numb nuts it has not only been a problem in the llast 4 years ther have been forclosures throughout the banking history. You just dont want to admit that in every boom there must be a bust. This is the time of the bust!!!! The housing market has been artificaly inflated for years by BANK and CONSUMERS. Take for example the cesspool of a state you call home. Where in hte hell is a 700 sqft bungalo worth 1 million dollars. You people inflated the prices because someone is always willing to spend more and the banks hedge their bets that someone will spen more. Well guess what sweetcheeks eventualy people STOP paying more for a piece of shit 700 sqft house just because its in California. So now that the next consumer is smarter then the last retard that bought an overpriced house the poor schmuck who gets stuck with it just didn't understand.

You are a pathetic waste of time by arguing a stupid pont by wanting MORE government involvement to look after poor little old us. Awwww we are soo stupid.


No one on this board has said people cant take a loan but guess what if you dont make 100 grand a year you shouldn't be buying a 300 grand house now should you?? or in your book is everyone entitled to the big Mcmansion just like the Jones down the street.

When I fbought my first house my wife and I bougt SMALL fixed it up sold for a profit and bought a BIGGER HOUSE that way we had more money for down payment and lower monthly bill.


IT ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE TO TELL IF YOU ARE OVEREXTENDING YOURSELF...AND IT DOESN'T TAKE TOHE GOVERNMENT TO LOOK OUT FOR US EITHER

IDIOT

[truthmatters]

Do you think they carry any blaim for their situation????????

I'm asking because all you seem to be saying is "it's someone elses fault".


It is the fault of the people with the power to tell people what is doable.

How many young people would buy their first home if they thoguth the loan company was just trying to make a quik buck off them and was going to sell the loan in two months by packaging it with others. You want to pretend that consumer protection laws are worthless but they are not. They are there to protect the overall economy as well as the individual. I know you will refuse to see this simply because Im saying it but its the damned truth.

[Monkeybone]

there already are protection laws and everything. it just boils down to who signs that line. which is ...drum roll....the consumer. ba-dump-dump. but then again....those pesky banks are holding guns to theirs head and cackling whiel wringing their hands together all the way to the bank. :lame2:

[Nukeman]

It is the fault of the people with the power to tell people what is doable.

How many young people would buy their first home if they thoguth the loan company was just trying to make a quik buck off them and was going to sell the loan in two months by packaging it with others. You want to pretend that consumer protection laws are worthless but they are not. They are there to protect the overall economy as well as the individual. I know you will refuse to see this simply because Im saying it but its the damned truth.

How many people actually would buy a home if they actually added up their total payments over 30 years. IF you hold a mortgage for the full amount you generaly pay 3x the amount of purchase so I dont think most banks are in it just for a "quick" buck they make substantialy more when they hold out for the interest. Now that being said the loans being sold are generaly higher risk, also the banks disclose at signing how many loans the sell every year. If you dont read it or understand it than HAVE SOMEONE READ IT TO YOU AND EXPLAIN IT. I did this at my first mortgage signing and it took 3-4 hours but that was a lot of money to me and I was making sure what I was getting into which is what EVERYONE should do. The problem today is that BANKRUPTCY is much harder to get and people are having to pay the consequnces of their own actions of not MANAGING THEIR OWN FINANCES. People have to take responsibility for their own...

OK here is where your are soo freaking stupid. IF a loan is sold the ORIGINAL paperwork signed by the lender and lendee(sp) is still the BINDING contract. Regardles of who your loan is sold to the original stipulations put forth in the loan stand. So even if the loan is sold the people are still responsible for the same amount. The amount doesnt change because the mortgage company sold it to another... This is just stupid on your part. Banks and lending institutions have done this sence banking began.

[Said1]

People here dont like to talk about the economy, I wonder why?

I do. Last time I checked, the looney was 1.04 against the Euro. Independent bookstores are selling books for the American price printed on the jacket.Woot.

[Said1]

They make the loans then they bundle them and sell them.

The majority of consumers who sign a loan have never read it in its entirety. Even if they did would they understand it? You people like to pretend that its all the consumers fault. If we truely had a system in which people had to understand the legal ramifications of all the documentation of every contract they signed we would have a next to dead economy.

There are laws governing lending. They like all laws are changed and modified throughout history to protect the vulnerable not just to help the vulernable but to keep the ecomy steaming along. If you were to remove these protections or ignore the need for timely modifications (as the R government over the last few years has done) you put the economy at risk because the consumer loses trust and wont take out loans which steam the economy.


So blame the individual consumer and let them sink. Tell people if they are too stupid to understand what they are signing to not take out any loans. What you will get is an entire generation of Americans who will not sign loans. They will not buy houses and only buy wares they can pay for in full. This will KILL the American economy.

Mortgage brokers are pretty nifty people, same with lawyers. They're good a splaining stuff......so you won't misunderstand what yer signing. If you can afford a house, you can afford the extra cost of making sure you're getting the best deal available to you. :D

[manu1959]

so a mortgage company creates a way for people to buy a home.....

people use it....some people lose their home because they can't pay the bills....other people can pay the bills and still have their home....

the response is ....this is the mortgae company's fault and all of these loans should be eliminated....even if it works for some people.....

[AFbombloader]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a8VFwgtdQ9FM&refer=home

Read about it and you will understand it better.

If America is unable to protect the lending consumer this is what we get.

Have you ever taken out a loan?

Thanks for the two articles in your last posts. One question tho.....where in either of them did it support your viewpoint that this is the governmants fault and they need to fix it? All I saw was shady INDIVIDUALS taking advantage of INDIVIDUALS who did not read the fine print.

And yes I have taken out loans and mortgages, and I did read the entire contract. Every time, that is my responsibility.

AF:salute:

[Trigg]

It is the fault of the people with the power to tell people what is doable.

How many young people would buy their first home if they thoguth the loan company was just trying to make a quik buck off them and was going to sell the loan in two months by packaging it with others. You want to pretend that consumer protection laws are worthless but they are not. They are there to protect the overall economy as well as the individual. I know you will refuse to see this simply because Im saying it but its the damned truth.


If you would start listening to what others are saying than we would listen to you. This is not personnal, even if you want it to be. You simply make no sense.

1. When a bank sells a loan is doens't change the loan. The interrest rate doesn't increase, the rates stay the same. Your just making a payment to another bank. NO CHANGE

2. It is the persons responsibility to READ the fine print. I've bought 2 houses and guess what, I had it explained to me.

3. If you can't afford something, don't buy it.

4. No one said consumer protection laws are stupid, read, instead of putting words in peoples mouths.

You are not holding people responsible. I asked if you hold the person responsibile at all and by your answer above you don't.....at all apparently.

$13,000 that is the amount of PERSONAL credit card debt. Do you have an answer to that, that doesn't involve the stock answer "it's the banks fault"??

[Nukeman]

If you would start listening to what others are saying than we would listen to you. This is not personnal, even if you want it to be. You simply make no sense.

1. When a bank sells a loan is doens't change the loan. The interrest rate doesn't increase, the rates stay the same. Your just making a payment to another bank. NO CHANGE

2. It is the persons responsibility to READ the fine print. I've bought 2 houses and guess what, I had it explained to me.

3. If you can't afford something, don't buy it.

4. No one said consumer protection laws are stupid, read, instead of putting words in peoples mouths.

You are not holding people responsible. I asked if you hold the person responsibile at all and by your answer above you don't.....at all apparently.

$13,000 that is the amount of PERSONAL credit card debt. Do you have an answer to that, that doesn't involve the stock answer "it's the banks fault"??
To add to Triggs post here is information straight from the credit card companies..


American consumers


• Total US consumer debt (which includes installment debt, but not mortgage debt) reached $2.46 Trillion in June 2007, up from $2.398 Trillion at the end of 2006 (Source: Federal Reserve)
• Total US consumer revolving debt reached $904 Billion in June 2007, up from $879 billion at the end of 2006 (Source: Federal Reserve)
• The median U.S. household income is currently $43,200 and the typical family's credit card balance is now almost 5 percent of their annual income. (Source: Federal Reserve)
• Of the households that do owe money on credit cards, the median balance was $2,200 -- meaning half owe more, half less. (Source: MSN Money)
• 8.3 percent of households owe $9,000 or more on their cards (Source: MSN Money)
• Approximately 40 percent of credit card users paid their balance in full each month in 2006 (Source: Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia)
• The majority of U.S. households have no credit card debt. About a quarter have no credit cards, and an additional 30 percent of households pay off their balances every month. (Source: Federal Reserve)
• On average, today's consumer has a total of 13 credit obligations on record at a credit bureau. These include credit cards (such as department store charge cards, gas cards or bank cards) and installment loans (auto loans, mortgage loans, student loans, etc.). Not included are savings and checking accounts (typically not reported to a credit bureau). Of these 13 credit obligations, nine are likely to be credit cards and four are likely to be installment loans. (Source: myfico.com)
• 51 percent of the US population has at least two credit cards (Source: Center for Media Research)
• Approximately 14 percent of Americans use 50 percent or more of their available credit, and this group carries an average of 6.6 credit cards (Source: Center for Media Research)
• Those utilizing at least 50 percent of their credit lines have an average credit score of 645, compared to the national average of 674 (Source: Center for Media Research)
• One in six families with credit cards pays only the minimum due every month. (Sources: American Bankers Association, Federal Reserve)
• On average, today's consumers are paying their bills on time, with less than half of all consumers have ever been reported as 30 or more days late on a payment. Only three out of 10 have ever been 60 or more days overdue on any credit obligation. Seventy-seven percent of all consumers have never had a loan or account that was 90+ days overdue, and less than 20 percent have ever had a loan or account closed by the lender due to default. (Source: myfico.com)
• About 40 percent of credit card holders carry a balance of less than $1,000. About 15 percent are far less conservative in their use of credit cards and have total card balances in excess of $10,000. When you look at the total of all credit obligations combined (except mortgage loans), 48 percent of consumers carry less than $5,000 of debt. This includes all credit cards, lines of credit, and loans-everything but mortgages. Nearly 37 percent carry more than $10,000 of non-mortgage-related debt as reported to the credit bureaus. (Source: myfico.com)
• The typical consumer has access to approximately $19,000 on all credit cards combined. More than half of all people with credit cards are using less than 30 percent of their total credit card limit. Just over one in seven are using 80 percent or more of their credit card limit. (Source: myfico.com)
• The average consumer's oldest obligation is 14 years old, indicating that he or she has been managing credit for some time. In fact, we found that one out of four consumers had credit histories of 20 years or longer. Only one in 20 consumers had credit histories shorter than two years. (Source: myfico.com)
• The average consumer has had only one credit inquiry on his or her accounts within the past year. Fewer than 6 percent had four or more inquiries resulting from a search for new credit. (Source: myfico.com)
• There has been a 23 percent increase over the past five years in the number of credit cardholders who use cards that accumulate points for merchandise and/or airline tickets. (Source: Vertis)
• At least one in 10 consumers have more than 10 credit cards in their wallets. However, the overall average number of credit cards per consumer is four. (Source: Experian's "National Score Index")
• Twenty-nine percent of low and middle income households with credit card debt reported that medical expenses contributed to their current balances. (Source: www.demos.org)
• U.S. consumers racked up an estimated $51 billion worth of fast food on their personal credit and debit cards in 2006, compared to $33.2 billion one-year ago. (Source: www.carddata.com)
• Americans over 50 are more likely to have a credit card than those 25 – 49 years old, but tend to use them less frequently (Source: 2007 AARP Payments Study)
• Eighty-eight percent of consumers surveyed admitted to immediately shredding or simply throwing out credit card offers they receive in the mail (Source: GfK Roper Survey)
• Only 50 percent of consumers survey are satisfied with their primary credit card (Source: GfK Roper Survey)
• Low interest rate is by far the most important factor when choosing a new credit card, cited by 58 percent of respondents (Source: GfK Roper Survey)
• Nearly one in every three consumer purchases in the United States is made with a payment card—including credit, debit, and prepaid products. (Source: Visa USA)
• Of every $100 spent by consumers, nearly $40 is in a form other than cash or check. (Source: Visa USA)
• Consumers carry more than 1 billion Visa cards worldwide—more than 450 million of those cards are in the United States (Source: Visa USA)
• U.S. Visa cardholders alone conduct more than $1 trillion in annual volume (Source: Visa USA)
• The average ticket for Visa purchases is consistently more than cash (Source: Visa USA)
I bolded a few line for you. The outlook is not that grim and the vast majority of people do have fiscal responsiblity its just the large number of idiots that wanted to keep up with the Joneses down the street that are now having to pay and thay cant do it....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/USA_home_appreciation_1998_2006.png

Check out this image I find it rather interesting that the states with the highest level of inflation adjusted house prices (see over priced) are all those ultra liberal democratic states. Seems to me your social programs aren't working enough to EDUCATE all those stupid people in them. Here I thought those were supposed to be the ENLIGHTEND states with the best educated people. I did notice that the conservative area's of the country have the LOWEST inflationary problems. HMMMMMMMMMM is there a coorolation???

[Said1]

To blame only the consumer is an oversimplistic and silly notion that NONE of the ecomonic experts argee with.

What experts holding a NPOV disagree, specifically?

[Nukeman]

What experts holding a NPOV disagree, specifically?
Good luck getting an answer from truthdoesntmatter!!!:laugh2:

[truthmatters]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/WhosToBlameForTheMortgageMess.aspx


who is responsible

[Monkeybone]

yah it sucks taht ppl set everything up like that so they could make money. Taking advantage of ppl that want a house or whatever.

but in the end it was the person who took out too big a loan and signed the paper or swiped that credit card. they didn't set the market up like that. no one is saying that they did, but they took out the money. they signed the contract without fully understanding it. and if it was too complicated they shoulda bit the bullet and asked what it meant. you're not gonna look stupid asking a question. nobody knows evertying. ppl in debt are to they themselves to blame. specially with those stupiud intrest only loans. why not just rent a place.

in the end, to quote Trigg:
personnal responsibility

[Nukeman]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/WhosToBlameForTheMortgageMess.aspx


who is responsibleYou have yet to answer Triggs question of whether or not the CONSUMER has any responsibility??? Are you going to answer or not.

Regardless of who said to use ARM it is still the consumer who took the loan in the first place. They did this so they would have a lower interest rate for a SHORT TIME with the hope of making more money with raises or other types of income before the rate increase. In other words they speculated and took a chance unfortunately they lost this time.

You dont believe in personal responsibility do you??

If you did this conversation would have been over a long time ago. You cant alwys ahve someone else to blame for your own stupidity!!! Sometimes you just do stupid things and hopefully learn form them..... Its called a learning curve for a reason.....:poke:

[Nukeman]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/WhosToBlameForTheMortgageMess.aspx


who is responsible


The dipshit that signed their name tothe contract knowing full well thay couldn afford the house they were buying that who. No one put a gun to their head no one forced them to even go to that particular lending institution or are you suggesting that the banks have a big thug outside strongarming poor defenseless people into taking these loans. If so you are much more pathetic than I have ever given you credit for!!!!!

[truthmatters]

The dipshit that signed their name tothe contract knowing full well thay couldn afford the house they were buying that who. No one put a gun to their head no one forced them to even go to that particular lending institution or are you suggesting that the banks have a big thug outside strongarming poor defenseless people into taking these loans. If so you are much more pathetic than I have ever given you credit for!!!!!


You want a simple answer to the problem. Life is not as simple as you want it to be. This is why you vote for republicans. The party convinces you everything is simple and all the country needs is a tax cut and everything will be perfect. Your insults for ideas which anger you because they are not one liners are pretty sad. Yes people will be much more carefull when they sign any loans. They will be much more likely to NOT believe the people who "explain" the loan to them. These types of loans will not be available anymore. Now why did they balloon in the first place? Did people suddenly just become more stupid? No it was because someone was making money on convincing people they COULD buy a home. Why did no one step in and say "hey this is going to screw up the economy if you keep doing this shit"? No they did not. I heard democrats (me included ) complain about an economy which was being fueled by these dangerous kinds of loans which would hurt the economy in the end. Dont you remember hearing the phrase "false recovery" and "An economy based on people taking money out of their homes"? Now that what we were warning about has come to pass you are going to blame some of the victims.

BTW what is now going to fuel the economy now that people have stopped taking money out of their homes?

That is why the republicans did not stop it , it made them look good.

[Nukeman]

You want a simple answer to the problem. Life is not as simple as you want it to be. This is why you vote for republicans. The party convinces you everything is simple and all the country needs is a tax cut and everything will be perfect. Your insults for ideas which anger you because they are not one liners are pretty sad. Yes people will be much more carefull when they sign any loans. They will be much more likely to NOT believe the people who "explain" the loan to them. These types of loans will not be available anymore. Now why did they balloon in the first place? Did people suddenly just become more stupid? No it was because someone was making money on convincing people they COULD buy a home. Why did no one step in and say "hey this is going to screw up the economy if you keep doing this shit"? No they did not. I heard democrats (me included ) complain about an economy which was being fueled by these dangerous kinds of loans which would hurt the economy in the end. Dont you remember hearing the phrase "false recovery" and "An economy based on people taking money out of their homes"? Now that what we were warning about has come to pass you are going to blame some of the victims.

BTW what is now going to fuel the economy now that people have stopped taking money out of their homes?

That is why the republicans did not stop it , it made them look good.

My God woman are you really as dense as you portray yourself on this web sight. Why on Gods green earth would you advocate people utilizing their EQUITY in their primary residence to purchase STUFF. You and your ilk are what is wrong with this country (spend, spend,spend even if you cant afford it). You forget the old question of "Do I need it or do I want it". You would rather have people utilizing credit for tangible goods that they want instead of what they need.

You have the gall to tell me the reason I vote Republican is because I'm too stupid to grasp simple concepts (unlike you dipshit I dont vote party line I vote for the BEST candidate), and I only like one line answers well I tell you what all of your thoughts can be summed up into two trains of thought

1. The Republicans did it
2. The Government will take care of everything.

You are such a half wit it is laughable.

I love that because some (most) of us on this board are for people taking responsibility for their own actions we are some how less intellegent than yo who is calling for more government oversight of almost every aspect of our lives. You are a true socialist aren't you??

Once again you have yet to answer the question of PERSONAL RESPOSIBILITY!!! Are you really this dense???

[truthmatters]

You are for only the little guy being responisible and want to let off anyone who was involved in creating an atmosphere in which the little people were used by this government and the corprations who profited in ruining the the economy.

Where did I say any of what you claimed I said?

I was warning abbout this mess years ago and people like you were saying it was no problem.

I told everyone I could NOT to take money out of their homes. The R government said go for it.

You have offered nothing but insults.

[Nukeman]

. Now why did they balloon in the first place? Did people suddenly just become more stupid? .

No your wrong here as well the loans "ballooned" becasue that is what was spelled in the loan. Lots of people take 5-10 balloon payment loans.

Do you know how they work? Let me educate you just a little.

The balloon loan is for people who are not planning on staying in their house for more than a couple of years. This allows them to maintain a LOWER interest rate for a set number of years with the BALANCE due at the end of the set term. The owner or person who took the loan has two options 1. Take another mortgage to pay of the remaining amount. 2. Sell the house.

This is where your having problems when the balloon payment came due these people had used up all their equity and couldnt sell their house for the amount that they still owed on it or they wouldn't make any money after paying realestate fees to the agent. Once again we are back to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!

If you really think everyone out there who took one of these loans is so stupid that they cant understand simple grade school math you are dead wrong. A vast majority of these people just wanted more stuff to fill there house.

Not everyone needs or deserves a 5,000 sqft house, not everyone deseves a shinny new car, not everyone deseves a complete wardrobe for each season. People have to learn to LIVE WITHIN THEIR MEANS. When this finaally sinks into you and people like you then and only than will the economy be better.

You realize that the Chinese carry 1.4 trillion dollars of US debt, that comes directly or inderectly from the all mighty consumer that you wnat to go out and use the equity in their home to buy more crap on credit.. Get real an open your f***ing eyes... :slap:

[truthmatters]

Who is it that has been structuring our debt through China?

[Nukeman]

You are for only the little guy being responisible and want to let off anyone who was involved in creating an atmosphere in which the little people were used by this government and the corprations who profited in ruining the the economy.

Where did I say any of what you claimed I said?

I was warning abbout this mess years ago and people like you were saying it was no problem.

I told everyone I could NOT to take money out of their homes. The R government said go for it.

You have offered nothing but insults.You know shit about me. I have been predicting this recession for a couple of years and I personnaly think we will hit very near a depression before things get better. I have seen people LIVING BEYOND THEIR MEANS and for the record no I dont hold the banks blameless Preditory lending is a major problem with the economy but it always comes back to the fact that PEOPLE OVER EXTEND THEMSELVES TO BUY STUFF.

The only answer you have come up with is more government involvement and thats it. I think the answer lies in educating people about their finances people should be mandated to take a personal fianance course in either highschool or college preferable both because obviously people like you are all for saying "its the big bad banks fault you were just taken advantage of because your tooo stupid to understand grade school math...."

Give me a break...:slap:

[Nukeman]

Who is it that has been structuring our debt through China?
Ultimately the consumer... The government only has so much money now dont they!! You with your answer of spend, spend, spend dont realize that our government has to borrow money from somewhere to loan money to banks to loan money to you. So like any good person looking for a loan they go for the ceapest rates and that happened to be China a few years ago. Guesse what it all comes back to over spending by the consumers do you not grasp that concept!!!!!!

[avatar4321]

You are for only the little guy being responisible and want to let off anyone who was involved in creating an atmosphere in which the little people were used by this government and the corprations who profited in ruining the the economy.

Where did I say any of what you claimed I said?

I was warning abbout this mess years ago and people like you were saying it was no problem.

I told everyone I could NOT to take money out of their homes. The R government said go for it.

You have offered nothing but insults.

That's the funny think about representative government. The "little guy" has to be responsible or they no longer have a representative government.

This is exactly why Democrats have, for years, been trying to make the "little guy" dependent on them. So those "little people" stop being responsible and need to rely completely on the Democrats in office to survive.

You have done nothing but advocate programs that would relieve the "little guy" of responsibilities. to suggest that you have no responsibility is naive at best.

[avatar4321]

Who is it that has been structuring our debt through China?

The Democrats who have been creating our debt for decades

[truthmatters]

That's the funny think about representative government. The "little guy" has to be responsible or they no longer have a representative government.

This is exactly why Democrats have, for years, been trying to make the "little guy" dependent on them. So those "little people" stop being responsible and need to rely completely on the Democrats in office to survive.

You have done nothing but advocate programs that would relieve the "little guy" of responsibilities. to suggest that you have no responsibility is naive at best.


No you are wrong. The Democrats just want the little guy protected from the monied interests who would take advantage of those in a vulnerable position.
Its good for the individual and good for the overall economy when you make it harder for the Corporations to abuse the populace.

[avatar4321]

No you are wrong. The Democrats just want the little guy protected from the monied interests who would take advantage of those in a vulnerable position.
Its good for the individual and good for the overall economy when you make it harder for the Corporations to abuse the populace.

So the "little guy" doesn't have to be responsible now? Good to know. I am going to go out and buy a house I cant afford. But thanks to TM I know that the government will bail me out if i have problems. After all its those dang mortgage companies who are the real bad guys.

[Nukeman]

No you are wrong. The Democrats just want the little guy protected from the monied interests who would take advantage of those in a vulnerable position.
Its good for the individual and good for the overall economy when you make it harder for the Corporations to abuse the populace.
BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH bush did it BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH republicans did it BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH.......etc infinity....

[Nukeman]

So the "little guy" doesn't have to be responsible now? Good to know. I am going to go out and buy a house I cant afford. But thanks to TM I know that the government will bail me out if i have problems. After all its those dang mortgage companies who are the real bad guys.
Now you understand!!! YAAAAAAAA lets all go do that and see what that does for the economy. SPEND, SPEND, SPEND, THAN SPEND SOME MORE because that what TM says is good for the economy.

[truthmatters]

So the "little guy" doesn't have to be responsible now? Good to know. I am going to go out and buy a house I cant afford. But thanks to TM I know that the government will bail me out if i have problems. After all its those dang mortgage companies who are the real bad guys.


Where did I call for a bailout?

Go ask any of the people who got stuck in this and ask them if they were happy they got suckered into it.

[truthmatters]

Now you understand!!! YAAAAAAAA lets all go do that and see what that does for the economy. SPEND, SPEND, SPEND, THAN SPEND SOME MORE because that what TM says is good for the economy.


I said just the opposite. Why are you lying?

[manu1959]

No you are wrong. The Democrats just want the little guy protected from the monied interests who would take advantage of those in a vulnerable position.
Its good for the individual and good for the overall economy when you make it harder for the Corporations to abuse the populace.

so no loans for those too dumb to figure out what they are signing up for....or too poor to be able to pay for it......

[Mr. P]

No you are wrong. The Democrats just want the little guy protected from the monied interests who would take advantage of those in a vulnerable position.
Its good for the individual and good for the overall economy when you make it harder for the Corporations to abuse the populace.

LMFAO!!!

Oh really? You're in Vegas babe! Close those casinos cuz they abuse the populace by taking their money, and watch how fast the local economy collapses.

[avatar4321]

Where did I call for a bailout?

Go ask any of the people who got stuck in this and ask them if they were happy they got suckered into it.

You are doing nothing but calling for government intervention to protect the "little guy". Are you saying the only solution you are proposing is that we attack the mortgage companies? Especially when they are already losing on account of the little guy's loans defaulting?

[truthmatters]

The Democrats who have been creating our debt for decades



http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/67147.pdf

a little reading of facts for you

[truthmatters]

You are doing nothing but calling for government intervention to protect the "little guy". Are you saying the only solution you are proposing is that we attack the mortgage companies? Especially when they are already losing on account of the little guy's loans defaulting?



Where did I say anything should be attacked?

You need to stop seeing regulation of our industries to protect our future economy as attacking them.

Do you think the world was better off when industry was allowed to do whatever they wanted?

[Nukeman]

I said just the opposite. Why are you lying?
Umm right here for one...



It is the governments fault for not reacting in a reasoned manner to the threat to the economy presented by the lending institutions and their attempts to cash in on the consumers trust of their institutions. You can pretend its all the consumers fault and that will get you nothing but an economy in which no one buys any big ticket item unless they can pay in full. Think hard on that one and realise what it would mean to the American economy.What the bolded part says to me is that people shouldnt wait to have enough to pay in full but take a loan or credit to purchase it just to keep money in circulation

[avatar4321]

Where did I say anything should be attacked?

You need to stop seeing regulation of our industries to protect our future economy as attacking them.

Do you think the world was better off when industry was allowed to do whatever they wanted?

Actually yes. Your desire for government regulation just trades one evil for something even worse. However, you seem to be denying that you want more regulation while at the same time saying we are better off with regulation. So what exactly are you proposing or are you just taking the exact opposite position that I am?

You also seem to be ignoring my point. If you think that I am wrong about the need for the "little guy" to be responsible, then why shouldnt i just go out and be careless. After all, why should I be responsible for my actions? After all, if your regulations work as they should, someone else will be responsible for me.

I think that anyone who thinks about it can see the flaw in what you are arguing. And as you keep removing the natural consequences for people who are irresponsible, they will never learn to be responsible because they will never be accountable for their actions. Some people learn from others. Others have to learn the hard way from personal experience. You are proposing that we take away the experience they might otherwise learn.

[truthmatters]

Why do you refuse to answer my questions?

[truthmatters]

Umm right here for one...


What the bolded part says to me is that people shouldnt wait to have enough to pay in full but take a loan or credit to purchase it just to keep money in circulation


How many people can buy a house or a car without a loan?

What would it mean for the American economy if people were forced to do so?

Please answer my questions.

[Kathianne]

Why do you refuse to answer my questions?

Industry has not been 'able to do whatever it wanted' since the late 1800's. By 1920, regulations were building, rapidly and that was under Calvin Coolidge and Hoover.
Further escalation under FDR and so on.

[truthmatters]

Industry has not been 'able to do whatever it wanted' since the late 1800's. By 1920, regulations were building, rapidly and that was under Calvin Coolidge and Hoover.
Further escalation under FDR and so on.

This is not an answer to what I asked is it?



How many people can buy a house or a car without a loan?

What would it mean for the American economy if people were forced to do so?

Do you think the world was better off when industry was allowed to do whatever they wanted?

[Kathianne]

This is not an answer to what I asked is it?



How many people can buy a house or a car without a loan?

What would it mean for the American economy if people were forced to do so?

Do you think the world was better off when industry was allowed to do whatever they wanted?

yeah, it was:


Do you think the world was better off when industry was allowed to do whatever they wanted?

[truthmatters]

How did that tell me wether you think it was better when they were unregulated?

[Kathianne]

How did that tell me wether you think it was better when they were unregulated?

I think it probably was better for innovation, cost of goods, and those that owned those industries. Not so good, in fact often terrible for the workers. Thus they became regulated.

[truthmatters]

I think it probably was better for innovation, cost of goods, and those that owned those industries. Not so good, in fact often terrible for the workers. Thus they became regulated.

Thank you so much for answering.

Industry has proven it has to be regulated in the interest of the individual and the greater economy. I am glad to see you agree with me.

[Kathianne]

Thank you so much for answering.

Industry has proven it has to be regulated in the interest of the individual and the greater economy. I am glad to see you agree with me.

Not the economy, nope. Would they take advantage of workers, just look at what the illegals get paid.

[truthmatters]

Not the economy, nope. Would they take advantage of workers, just look at what the illegals get paid.

When you ensure that the buying public can trust not to be taken by the market place participants you ensure they will buy more freely and more often.
I just dont understand why so many of you here refuse this connection?

[Kathianne]

When you ensure that the buying public can trust not to be taken by the market place participants you ensure they will buy more freely and more often.
I just dont understand why so many of you here refuse this connection?

Excuse me? What was that first sentence?

[truthmatters]

Regulations protecting the buyer keeps them buying. It helps the economy keep steaming along.

[Nukeman]

She is nothing more than a freaking SOCIALIST!!!

[truthmatters]

Do you think a country which regulates industry is a socialist country?

[Nukeman]

Do you think a country which regulates industry is a socialist country?The degree to which you are asking for regulation would most definitely make it socialist. Just look at Hugo Caves who is regulating everything from regular jobs to the banking industry for the"good of the little man". You have no idea of what you are asking for...

[Kathianne]

Do you think a country which regulates industry is a socialist country?

WHAT is your problem? I've already said most major industries are regulated. Heck, between taxes, licenses, etc. the government at various levels probably know more about the industry than the ceos.

Now what you want the government to do, is run the companies. So the government would OWN the means of production, becoming if memory serves, communistic.

[truthmatters]

She is nothing more than a freaking SOCIALIST!!!

I was hoping for a response

[Trigg]

How many people can buy a house or a car without a loan?

What would it mean for the American economy if people were forced to do so?

Please answer my questions.


People are answering your questions, they just arn't agreeing with you, there is a difference.

Answer: not many people can buy a house or car without credit.

Millions however, buy houses they can afford and buy used cars. Millions of people live within their means instead of trying to "keep up with their neighbor".

Answer: The price of houses and cars would come down.

Example, when my parents bought a house in 65 it cost $18,000 they sold that house in 75 for 50,000. They had to prove, with their credit history that they could afford the payments for that 18,000.


When no interrest loans first came out my husband and I KNEW that the bubble was going to burse, it was just a matter of time. California house prices were going through the roof and it wasn't going to be able to sustain itself.

In the future, these same people, will be more carefull about buying a house. I bet they make damn sure they can afford it if life takes a turn.

You can't put yourself in debt up to your ears in the hope that you get that next raise. You buy smaller, knowing that life sometimes sucks and shit happens.

[truthmatters]

People are answering your questions, they just arn't agreeing with you, there is a difference.

Answer: not many people can buy a house or car without credit.

Millions however, buy houses they can afford and buy used cars. Millions of people live within their means instead of trying to "keep up with their neighbor".

Answer: The price of houses and cars would come down.

Example, when my parents bought a house in 65 it cost $18,000 they sold that house in 75 for 50,000. They had to prove, with their credit history that they could afford the payments for that 18,000.


When no interrest loans first came out my husband and I KNEW that the bubble was going to burse, it was just a matter of time. California house prices were going through the roof and it wasn't going to be able to sustain itself.

In the future, these same people, will be more carefull about buying a house. I bet they make damn sure they can afford it if life takes a turn.

You can't put yourself in debt up to your ears in the hope that you get that next raise. You buy smaller, knowing that life sometimes sucks and shit happens.

No they were not , they were just calling me names.

I do thank you for begining to answer my questions though.


Yes many buyers will be much more cautious and will not trust the loan companies. Yes prices will come down. Many will never enter the housing market again in their lives. New people will be born and will never be aware of just what took place in these years and history will bvery possibly repete its self just like that loan crisis of the past has be3en forgotten. Is any of this godd for the economy?

[Trigg]

No they were not , they were just calling me names.

I do thank you for begining to answer my questions though.


Yes many buyers will be much more cautious and will not trust the loan companies. Yes prices will come down. Many will never enter the housing market again in their lives. New people will be born and will never be aware of just what took place in these years and history will bvery possibly repete its self just like that loan crisis of the past has be3en forgotten. Is any of this godd for the economy?

Manu,afbombloader, nuke, and katheanne all answered your questions more than once.

Yes a recession will happen again, probably again in my lifetime. People will learn their lession and quit over extending themselves. They should pass that knowledge onto their children, but some will not.

The media has been telling people for at least the last decade that we are not saving enough. We are adults, we make our own choices, sometimes they are bad ones. There are consiquences, there is personnal responsibility.

A few facts:

No interrest loans= bad (this idea is pretty recent)

credit card debt=bad

taking out second mortgages=bad

home equity loans=bad (this idea is pretty recent)

[manu1959]

Manu,afbombloader, nuke, and katheanne all answered your questions more than once.

Yes a recession will happen again, probably again in my lifetime. People will learn their lession and quit over extending themselves. They should pass that knowledge onto their children, but some will not.

The media has been telling people for at least the last decade that we are not saving enough. We are adults, we make our own choices, sometimes they are bad ones. There are consiquences, there is personnal responsibility.

A few facts:

No interrest loans= bad (this idea is pretty recent)

credit card debt=bad

taking out second mortgages=bad

home equity loans=bad (this idea is pretty recent)

thank you ..... however, if you know what you are doing....the four things you cite, plus a line of credit, can all be leveraged to make you less reliant on the handouts of others .....

[Trigg]

thank you ..... however, if you know what you are doing....the four things you cite, plus a line of credit, can all be leveraged to make you less reliant on the handouts of others .....

True, I have an equity line of credit. I however, read the fine print before getting it, and I knew I could make the extra payments before borrowing the money.

To many people get the line of credit, never pay it off, and when they sell the house discover that they have no equity. Again, personnal responsibility since no one force them to take the additional loan.

[truthmatters]

Manu,afbombloader, nuke, and katheanne all answered your questions more than once.

Yes a recession will happen again, probably again in my lifetime. People will learn their lession and quit over extending themselves. They should pass that knowledge onto their children, but some will not.

The media has been telling people for at least the last decade that we are not saving enough. We are adults, we make our own choices, sometimes they are bad ones. There are consiquences, there is personnal responsibility.

A few facts:

No interrest loans= bad (this idea is pretty recent)

credit card debt=bad

taking out second mortgages=bad

home equity loans=bad (this idea is pretty recent)

Then please go get my questions and their responses?

They would not answer my direct questions for most of this post.

[Trigg]

Then please go get my questions and their responses?

They would not answer my direct questions for most of this post.

Why should I?????????????


All you have to do is start at the beginning and read the thread.


Your questions were answered more than once.

[truthmatters]

They are not there so how can I find them?

[AFbombloader]

No they were not , they were just calling me names.

I do thank you for begining to answer my questions though.


Yes many buyers will be much more cautious and will not trust the loan companies. Yes prices will come down. Many will never enter the housing market again in their lives. New people will be born and will never be aware of just what took place in these years and history will bvery possibly repete its self just like that loan crisis of the past has be3en forgotten. Is any of this godd for the economy?

I do believe we have all tried to answer your questions.

People who buy houses, cars, anything should be careful. This current situation manifested because they weren't. Is there more than one person/group to blame...yes. We are all stressing personal responsibility where it seems you do not. Does that say we do not feel the loan agents/banks/creditors do not hold some responsibility? You never asked us. Personally I feel they do, but the ultimate blame/responsibility falls on you/me/whoever puts themself into that situation.

If people do not put themselves into the housing market, fine. They shouldn't be there. Who says everybody should own a house? Some people need to stay out of it because they are not responsibile enough to own a house, ie. some of the people who are in hot water now. Many people make their livings by renting homes/apartments. Some people need to do that instead. That is good for the economy isn't it? People earning and spending money in the rental market?


AF:salute:

[Nukeman]

I do believe we have all tried to answer your questions.

People who buy houses, cars, anything should be careful. This current situation manifested because they weren't. Is there more than one person/group to blame...yes. We are all stressing personal responsibility where it seems you do not. Does that say we do not feel the loan agents/banks/creditors do not hold some responsibility? You never asked us. Personally I feel they do, but the ultimate blame/responsibility falls on you/me/whoever puts themself into that situation.

If people do not put themselves into the housing market, fine. They shouldn't be there. Who says everybody should own a house? Some people need to stay out of it because they are not responsibile enough to own a house, ie. some of the people who are in hot water now. Many people make their livings by renting homes/apartments. Some people need to do that instead. That is good for the economy isn't it? People earning and spending money in the rental market?


AF:salute:I'd rep you buddy but I gotta spread it around some more....:cheers2:

[Mr. P]

Does anyone else see this thread like an argument with a 5 yr old?

Any parent understands. We've all dealt with the kid that wants the twinky 20 minutes before dinner and we get sucked into an argument with a kid that just can't comprehend why they can't have it. This thread seems so much like that situation to me. It doesn't matter what reason is given......."I WANT MY TWINKY"!

[manu1959]

They are not there so how can I find them?

you just don't like the answers or the fact that people do not agree with your opinion.....you are myopic in your vision of society and believe that only your way will work....the world and this country prove you wrong....

oh and here are all your rehtorical questions....


People here dont like to talk about the economy, I wonder why?

Now tell me how many WMDs and AQ ties were found in Iraq?

Now tell me how many foreclosers there were in the last year over the previous year?

So you think its just the consumer holdig back for sales?

That is all this forecloseur, inventory glut is huh?

You will excuse anything the Republicans do or fail to do huh?

If we had just had six years of completely democratic rule who would you blame for the current mess America is in?

You will excuse anything they do or fail to do huh?

I will be watching people like you writhe in pain to figure out a way to blame all the Bush and R congress fallout on Clinton and the next Dem admin. Its going to be really sad. I just dont undestand why people love the R party more than their country and their own interest?

Personal attacks in the face of facts?

Is that all you have?

What Clinton recession?

Are you people aware that our government is already involved in laws to protect consumers?

How old are you?

You seem to have NO understanding of real history and or economics?

Do you have the faintest idea how screwed our economy would be?

Have you ever taken out a loan?

Then tell me why this is a problem that only took place in the years of 2003-2006?

Why have we not always had this problem even though the loans were available for many years?

Do you think they carry any blaim for their situation????????

who is responsible?

BTW what is now going to fuel the economy now that people have stopped taking money out of their homes?

Where did I say any of what you claimed I said?

Who is it that has been structuring our debt through China?

Where did I call for a bailout?

I said just the opposite. Why are you lying?

Where did I say anything should be attacked?

Do you think the world was better off when industry was allowed to do whatever they wanted?

Why do you refuse to answer my questions?

How many people can buy a house or a car without a loan?

What would it mean for the American economy if people were forced to do so?

[jimnyc]

Does anyone else see this thread like an argument with a 5 yr old?

Any parent understands. We've all dealt with the kid that wants the twinky 20 minutes before dinner and we get sucked into an argument with a kid that just can't comprehend why they can't have it. This thread seems so much like that situation to me. It doesn't matter what reason is given......."I WANT MY TWINKY"!

I'm handing out my 2nd post of the day award! :laugh2:

Partly because it's hilarious and partly because it's so damn true!

[avatar4321]

No they were not , they were just calling me names.

I do thank you for begining to answer my questions though.


Yes many buyers will be much more cautious and will not trust the loan companies. Yes prices will come down. Many will never enter the housing market again in their lives. New people will be born and will never be aware of just what took place in these years and history will bvery possibly repete its self just like that loan crisis of the past has be3en forgotten. Is any of this godd for the economy?

You seem to think that its all the loan companies fault. These people voluntarily agreed to these balloon loans. They didn't have to. If they didnt know the details they shouldnt have agreed to it. You act like the big bad loan companies were trying to scam them when if you actually look at what happens the loan companies are losing money on the deals. Why the heck do you think they are pushing washington to bail out the loans? Because otherwise they dont get paid.

Tell me, what business is so evil that they will scam people when it will hurt their bottom line?

(The answer is the government)

[truthmatters]

what is this ballon loan thing you are talking about?

There were several types of risky loans being used

Interest only , ARMs and the like please realise it is not as simple as you keep trying to make it.

[manu1959]

what is this ballon loan thing you are talking about?

There were several types of risky loans being used

Interest only , ARMs and the like please realise it is not as simple as you keep trying to make it.

http://www.investorwords.com/398/balloon_loan.html

[manu1959]

You seem to think that its all the loan companies fault. These people voluntarily agreed to these balloon loans. They didn't have to. If they didnt know the details they shouldnt have agreed to it. You act like the big bad loan companies were trying to scam them when if you actually look at what happens the loan companies are losing money on the deals. Why the heck do you think they are pushing washington to bail out the loans? Because otherwise they dont get paid.

Tell me, what business is so evil that they will scam people when it will hurt their bottom line?

(The answer is the government)

really....she should be happy....big business has actually screwed itself this time by giving high risk loans to high risk people....

[truthmatters]

http://www.investorwords.com/398/balloon_loan.html


How many of these were given in the last few years as apposed to Arms and interest only loans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_meltdown#Role_of_lenders

Why do you only wish to see the most vulnerable peopel in the uissue punished?

[avatar4321]

what is this ballon loan thing you are talking about?

There were several types of risky loans being used

Interest only , ARMs and the like please realise it is not as simple as you keep trying to make it.

It's irrelevant. It doesn't matter what kind of risky loan it is. The point is the people who agreed to it should have known the details or they shouldnt have agreed to it. The loan companies, who you want to blame, lose money when a customer defaults on his loan. That is exactly why they are pushing Washington for the bail out. Because otherwise they have just lost alot of money.

So explain to me please what benefits a loan company has to be evil and "scam" these customers into risky loans?

[truthmatters]

really....she should be happy....big business has actually screwed itself this time by giving high risk loans to high risk people....

I dont mind if big business makes money. I do mind when they screw the little guy and our economy at the same time. The question is why dont you care?

[avatar4321]

How many of these were given in the last few years as apposed to Arms and interest only loans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_meltdown#Role_of_lenders

Why do you only wish to see the most vulnerable peopel in the uissue punished?

The people actually being punished are the loan companies who will never get their money back. the people who defaulted will be cleared of all bills. They may lose a house, but they don't have the money to pay back the loan so they wont be able to.

[avatar4321]

I dont mind if big business makes money. I do mind when they screw the little guy and our economy at the same time. The question is why dont you care?

:bang3::bang3::bang3:

What part of The lenders don't make money when their customers default is that difficult to understand about this?

[Mr. P]

really....she should be happy....big business has actually screwed itself this time by giving high risk loans to high risk people....

And they did er good, didn't they?

The good news is...there will be bargains galore for investors or bargain hunters for the next few years.

[manu1959]

I dont mind if big business makes money. I do mind when they screw the little guy and our economy at the same time. The question is why dont you care?

so the people that chose to take out a high risk loan have no culpability in this....

so are car companies responsible for the accidents bad drivers cause?.....

and let me guess gun companies are responsible for criminals shooting people.....

and of course are public schools ..... well you get the idea ...

[truthmatters]

:bang3::bang3::bang3:

What part of The lenders don't make money when their customers default is that difficult to understand about this?


Heres the deal. Most of these loans were packaged with ohter loans and sold to other institutions. The people who made money on them are not holding them anymore.

[manu1959]

And they did er good, didn't they?

The good news is...there will be bargains galore for investors or bargain hunters for the next few years.

yes there will.......

[truthmatters]

And they did er good, didn't they?

The good news is...there will be bargains galore for investors or bargain hunters for the next few years.

When you already have money you can make money in any economy.

[manu1959]

When you already have money you can make money in any economy.

if you know which loan is for what......

[truthmatters]

if you know which loan is for what......


If you have money you dont need a loan.

[manu1959]

If you have money you dont need a loan.

that statement tells me you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.....

you should never use your own money to make money.....

[Nukeman]

Heres the deal. Most of these loans were packaged with ohter loans and sold to other institutions. The people who made money on them are not holding them anymore.

This has been explained to you until I want to puke.

selling your loan to another bank DOES NOT CHANGE THE LOAN.

You don't even know what a balloon payment is and yet here you are bitching about these types of loans for 12 pages now.

You have no idea what your talking about. People have tried explaining it to you, answering your questions.

Now, here you are asking the same assinine questions all over again.

Do yourself a favor and shut your mouth, you are proving yourself to be an idiot.

[Nukeman]

If you have money you dont need a loan.

that is the dumbest statement I have heard in a long time.


Congrats dipshit

[Nukeman]

that statement tells me you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.....

you should never use your own money to make money.....

Before I read this I said the exact same thing to my wife..:cheers2:

I would rep you but i have to spread some more around....

[Mr. P]

If you have money you dont need a loan.

You need a bit of intelligence and some common sense...ever her the phrase; "A fool and his money are soon parted"? Oh...and if yer smart you'll get a loan and use someone else's money while yours continues to produce elsewhere.

[Mr. P]

This has been explained to you until I want to puke.

selling your loan to another bank DOES NOT CHANGE THE LOAN.

You don't even know what a balloon payment is and yet here you are bitching about these types of loans for 12 pages now.

You have no idea what your talking about. People have tried explaining it to you, answering your questions.

Now, here you are asking the same assinine questions all over again.

Do yourself a favor and shut your mouth, you are proving yourself to be an idiot.

Pages ago!

[truthmatters]

You need a bit of intelligence and some common sense...ever her the phrase; "A fool and his money are soon parted"? Oh...and if yer smart you'll get a loan and use someone else's money while yours continues to produce elsewhere.


You fool this is a way of making your money produce elsewhere.

[manu1959]

Before I read this I said the exact same thing to my wife..:cheers2:

I would rep you but i have to spread some more around....

the thing i love about truth is this......

if you let her talk long enough she usually kicks her own ass in these discussions....

[truthmatters]

Investing comes in many forms and you people are now going to go on record as saying people do not invest in realestate?

Brilliant.

[Mr. P]

Investing comes in many forms and you people are now going to go on record as saying people do not invest in realestate?

Brilliant.

No one said that.

[truthmatters]

No one said that.


When you have money to invest you dont need to pay interest on the money you use.

[Mr. P]

You fool this is a way of making your money produce elsewhere.

Only IF I made that choice. Which I didn't, mortgage broker investment is too risky for me...I read the contract. :slap:

[Mr. P]

When you have money to invest you dont need to pay interest on the money you use.

I don't pay interest on it if I keep it either.

What are you trying to say?

[Kathianne]

Investing comes in many forms and you people are now going to go on record as saying people do not invest in real estate?

Brilliant.

I don't know about you but before I bought my first house, at 25 we had saved up $40 for the down payment, paid off our school loans and cars. The house was $185k. We had Visa and MC, with 0 balances. We shopped for a loan, by the way interest rates at that time were over 9%.

We did that before having kids and yes, our joint incomes were pretty good, though I was pregnant knowing that I would not be working.

Fast forward 15 years, I have 3 kids, single mom. Income of 38K including child support. I took 30k and bought a townhome for $130k. They were selling for $280-290 last year, now down to $240k to sell within two months or so. Not bad for 11 years. However, I did my homework, found PNC mortgage that was focusing on single moms with good credit. Locked in at a very good rate: 7.5 and refinanced locked at 6.2 a couple years ago.

People need to take responsibility. I had to buy a dryer last week, $700. I was going to debit it, then found that I could use my card, with 0 interest. So, my money will remain in bank making interest, I'll pay the dryer off in 7 months. Deal is, if I have to pay it off, I can.

[Mr. P]

I don't know about you but before I bought my first house, at 25 we had saved up $40 for the down payment, paid off our school loans and cars. The house was $185k. We had Visa and MC, with 0 balances. We shopped for a loan, by the way interest rates at that time were over 9%.

We did that before having kids and yes, our joint incomes were pretty good, though I was pregnant knowing that I would not be working.

Fast forward 15 years, I have 3 kids, single mom. Income of 38K including child support. I took 30k and bought a townhome for $130k. They were selling for $280-290 last year, now down to $240k to sell within two months or so. Not bad for 11 years. However, I did my homework, found PNC mortgage that was focusing on single moms with good credit. Locked in at a very good rate: 7.5 and refinanced locked at 6.2 a couple years ago.

People need to take responsibility. I had to buy a dryer last week, $700. I was going to debit it, then found that I could use my card, with 0 interest. So, my money will remain in bank making interest, I'll pay the dryer off in 7 months. Deal is, if I have to pay it off, I can.

PERFECT! cept for that dryer...for $700 does it fold and put away too? :poke:

[Kathianne]

PERFECT! cept for that dryer...for $700 does it fold and put away too? :poke:

No, but it will dry the comforters, saving $$ on dry cleaners. ;)

[truthmatters]

We bought our first home in Cali in 89 for 105. We keep it adn rent it out. We bought our second home in 95 for 136 and still live in it. We have done great on both and they are still worth arround 3 times what we still owe on them even in this market. I have been very lucky to buy before the huge price run up. My first home produces income every month. I could rent my current home for twice the payment.

I was really talking about people with large amounts of liquid money who can buy low and in the coming market as an investment.

[Trigg]

We bought our first home in Cali in 89 for 105. We keep it adn rent it out. We bought our second home in 95 for 136 and still live in it. We have done great on both and they are still worth arround 3 times what we still owe on them even in this market. I have been very lucky to buy before the huge price run up. My first home produces income every month. I could rent my current home for twice the payment.

I was really talking about people with large amounts of liquid money who can buy low and in the coming market as an investment.

Why don't you know what a balloon payments is?

Why don't you understand what it means when a bank sells a loan?

You claim to have owned houses for almost 20 years and you don't understand those two things????????????????

[truthmatters]

I knew what a ballon payment was I had just never realised the loan was so named. It was not a tool I was insterested in using so I never pursued it.

[Kathianne]

We bought our first home in Cali in 89 for 105. We keep it adn rent it out. We bought our second home in 95 for 136 and still live in it. We have done great on both and they are still worth arround 3 times what we still owe on them even in this market. I have been very lucky to buy before the huge price run up. My first home produces income every month. I could rent my current home for twice the payment.

I was really talking about people with large amounts of liquid money who can buy low and in the coming market as an investment.

So you don't have 'large amounts' of money, but are able to afford rental property! Congratulations. How do you do that, when you seem so confused about mortgages and loans and credit?

[Mr. P]

No, but it will dry the comforters, saving $$ on dry cleaners. ;)

Yeah the comforters are a problem/pain....then again they don't need washed all that often...do they? :poke:

Seriously I know prices are up...I still use a dryer thats 24 yrs old. Works great and if she gets sick I fix er. At her age though, the problem becomes finding parts....tis only a matter of time...I'll miss her.

[Kathianne]

Yeah the comforters are a problem/pain....then again they don't need washed all that often...do they? :poke:

Seriously I know prices are up...I still use a dryer thats 24 yrs old. Works great and if she gets sick I fix er. At her age though, the problem becomes finding parts....tis only a matter of time...I'll miss her.

Well hopefully this one will be the last. Most of the time I have just one home, except for holidays, when they bring home bags and baskets of clothes. Sigh, that's next week.

[truthmatters]

So you don't have 'large amounts' of money, but are able to afford rental property! Congratulations. How do you do that, when you seem so confused about mortgages and loans and credit?

I am not confused. I understand how to make my money stretch and work for me. I am very frugal having been raised dirt poor. If I had followed what my parents knew to teach me about money I would be poor today. We dont teach people how to use money in this country. I was very lucky to find a way to put myself through college by working , pell grants and running a boarding house. I was lucky to hear this phrase while I was young "watch what the poor people do and dont do it". Being poor I had never seen what to do to be successful so this line taught me to work in the reverse.

I knew the best way to make my money work was to not sell my first house and to rent it out. The first years were very tight and I rented it at a loss. As rents raised I was able to turn a profit. They best way to get people educated about how to use money is to teach then in high school. Why as a country do we ot now do this?

[Mr. P]

Why don't you know what a balloon payments is?

Why don't you understand what it means when a bank sells a loan?

You claim to have owned houses for almost 20 years and you don't understand those two things????????????????

Those were OMG and she's preaching to us, for me!

[truthmatters]

Those were OMG and she's preaching to us, for me!

You just ignored my answer huh?

[manu1959]

Who is it that has been structuring our debt through China?

chinese investors....

[truthmatters]

chinese investors....


Oh I see they have complete control over us huh?

[JohnDoe]

I'm on my second home and don't know the specifics of a "balloon" mortgage and I know absolutely nothing about selling off loans, other than what I have just now been reading....with this crisis...

we took a conventional 30 year mortgage on our first home, and paid cash on this one, so maybe I am behind the times?

[Mr. P]

You just ignored my answer huh?

No I saw it..don't believe it though..you had no clue what a balloon was until manu gave you a link. Admit it. Geeeeeezzzzzz.

[truthmatters]

No I saw it..don't believe it though..you had no clue what a balloon was until manu gave you a link. Admit it. Geeeeeezzzzzz.


I answered truthfully

[manu1959]

Oh I see they have complete control over us huh?

same as the evil lenders......they are tricking us.....we aren't responsible....someone should regulate the predatory lending pratices of the chinese.....fist their food that doesn't fill you up ...now this....the bastards...

[truthmatters]

same as the evil lenders......they are tricking us.....we aren't responsible....someone should regulate the predatory lending pratices of the chinese.....fist their food that doesn't fill you up ...now this....the bastards...

So you are sugesting we should not try to keep the chinese from having undue influence on our countrys economy?

[Mr. P]

I knew what a ballon payment was I had just never realised the loan was so named. It was not a tool I was insterested in using so I never pursued it.


I answered truthfully

I don't think so or else you really didn't know what you were talking about. Which you've made VERY clear. Previously in the thread you claimed that a balloon was some evil practice by lenders. So, is it evil or a tool?

[manu1959]

So you are sugesting we should not try to keep the chinese from having undue influence on our countrys economy?

i was being sarcastic ..... i belive in a free open and unregulated market with survival of the fitest .... same way my partners and i run our company ....

take responsibility for your actions and understand what the fuck you are doing before you jump in ....

[truthmatters]

i was being sarcastic ..... i belive in a free open and unregulated market with survival of the fitest .... same way my partners and i run our company ....

take responsibility for your actions and understand what the fuck you are doing before you jump in ....

You just contridicted yourself. Survival of the fitest means China can do what they want without our government useing its powers to help itself.

[truthmatters]

I don't think so or else you really didn't know what you were talking about. Which you've made VERY clear. Previously in the thread you claimed that a balloon was some evil practice by lenders. So, is it evil or a tool?


That is a lie. Go get this post where you claim I did so.

[April15]

I'm on my second home and don't know the specifics of a "balloon" mortgage and I know absolutely nothing about selling off loans, other than what I have just now been reading....with this crisis...

we took a conventional 30 year mortgage on our first home, and paid cash on this one, so maybe I am behind the times?You are ahead of the times! Creative financing is all a balloon mortgage is just like ARM's and all the other crap out there. All they do is make money for the financer and the purchaser gets screwed in the end.

[manu1959]

You just contridicted yourself. Survival of the fitest means China can do what they want without our government useing its powers to help itself.

really....go cut and past the two statements that contadict each other and i will clarify what they mean for you....

[Mr. P]

That is a lie. Go get this post where you claim I did so.

So is it evil or a tool? Are ARMs evil or a tool? Are interest only loans evil or a tool? If a lender extends you credit, are they evil or a tool?

[Hobbit]

So is it evil or a tool? Are ARMs evil or a tool? Are interest only loans evil or a tool? If a lender extends you credit, are they evil or a tool?

Honestly? They're greedy and amoral, and you're stupid for letting them take advantage of you.

But they'll always be greedy and amoral. It's your responsibility to wise up, not the government's responsibility to bail you out for being stupid.

[Said1]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/WhosToBlameForTheMortgageMess.aspx


who is responsible

Was this supposed to answer my question about experts who disagree?

[Mr. P]

Honestly? They're greedy and amoral, and you're stupid for letting them take advantage of you.

But they'll always be greedy and amoral. It's your responsibility to wise up, not the government's responsibility to bail you out for being stupid.

Can't go with the greed part....what would you charge to loan say $200k for 30 years?

[truthmatters]

I don't think so or else you really didn't know what you were talking about. Which you've made VERY clear. Previously in the thread you claimed that a balloon was some evil practice by lenders. So, is it evil or a tool?

I will note that you could not produce any of my comments which matched your claim. Will you face your mistake or just pretend you are right in the face of facts not agreeing with your claim?

[avatar4321]

I knew what a ballon payment was I had just never realised the loan was so named. It was not a tool I was insterested in using so I never pursued it.

This seems like nothing but backtracking semantics. You are the one who brought up the balloon loans to begin with. (Which have been around since atleast the Great Depression). Why on earth do you suddenly have no clue what they are when they are called balloon loans? you are the one who spelled out what they did. It doesnt take a freaking genius to figure out that a balloon loan is the loan you were talking about when it balloons at the end.

[truthmatters]

This seems like nothing but backtracking semantics. You are the one who brought up the balloon loans to begin with. (Which have been around since atleast the Great Depression). Why on earth do you suddenly have no clue what they are when they are called balloon loans? you are the one who spelled out what they did. It doesnt take a freaking genius to figure out that a balloon loan is the loan you were talking about when it balloons at the end.

Please go get the post where I brought them up?

[Kathianne]

Please go get the post where I brought them up?

did you get those two posts of Manu's you said were contradictory? A few pages back?

[truthmatters]

Yesterday, 03:38 PM
manu1959
left coast isolationist Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,567
Rep Power: 517
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthmatters
Who is it that has been structuring our debt through China?

chinese investors....






i was being sarcastic ..... i belive in a free open and unregulated market with survival of the fitest .... same way my partners and i run our company ....

take responsibility for your actions and understand what the fuck you are doing before you jump in ....




If it is free unregulated and survival of the fittest then how is it China controls our debt to them?

[Kathianne]

Yesterday, 03:38 PM
manu1959
left coast isolationist Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,567
Rep Power: 517
Rep Points: 46121





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthmatters
Who is it that has been structuring our debt through China?

chinese investors....
Okay. The contradiction is where? You didn't know the government issues bonds and other forms of investment, FOR SALE? They buy them.

[manu1959]

Yesterday, 03:38 PM
manu1959
left coast isolationist Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,567
Rep Power: 517
Rep Points: 46121

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthmatters
Who is it that has been structuring our debt through China?

chinese investors....

If it is free unregulated and survival of the fittest then how is it China controls our debt to them?

because they are kicking our ass .... the are the more fit .... fucking hell .....

[Mr. P]

I will note that you could not produce any of my comments which matched your claim. Will you face your mistake or just pretend you are right in the face of facts not agreeing with your claim?

I'll note yer a fuckin IDIOT and I'm not wading through over 200 posts to prove it. It only takes one which I am sure you'll produce (again) very soon. How's that?

[truthmatters]

I knew it was not there , thanks for confirming that.

[Mr. P]

I knew it was not there , thanks for confirming that.

:laugh2: Let's play your little game. Show me where I said it's NOT there and confirmed it.

First post outta the start you proved what I said you would. IDIOT. :laugh2:

[Trigg]

Well liesmatter here is the post you can't seem to find.

I just can't stand the blathering any longer. Did you specifically say they were evil? No, you called them dangerous.

page 8, post 116


Yes people will be much more carefull when they sign any loans. They will be much more likely to NOT believe the people who "explain" the loan to them. These types of loans will not be available anymore. Now why did they balloon in the first place? Did people suddenly just become more stupid? No it was because someone was making money on convincing people they COULD buy a home. Why did no one step in and say "hey this is going to screw up the economy if you keep doing this shit"? No they did not. I heard democrats (me included ) complain about an economy which was being fueled by these dangerous kinds of loans which would hurt the economy in the end.

Only to ask a few pages later what a balloon payment was. Why argue a point which you know nothing about?????

post 169


what is this ballon loan thing you are talking about?

[avatar4321]

Well liesmatter here is the post you can't seem to find.

I just can't stand the blathering any longer. Did you specifically say they were evil? No, you called them dangerous.

page 8, post 116



Only to ask a few pages later what a balloon payment was. Why argue a point which you know nothing about?????

post 169

thanks for saving me time.

Seriously TM, you need to keep track of what you are saying.

[avatar4321]

I knew it was not there , thanks for confirming that.

You can barely wait an hour before declaring victory? i bet you are feeling kinda stupid since people have cited where you said it. Seriou

[Mr. P]

You can barely wait an hour before declaring victory? i bet you are feeling kinda stupid since people have cited where you said it. Seriou

I don't think IDIOTS are capable of feeling stupid. There will be an asinine come back...just watch.

[Pale Rider]

Since nm hasn't posted this yet in here, I will..... :popcorn:

[truthmatters]

Well liesmatter here is the post you can't seem to find.

I just can't stand the blathering any longer. Did you specifically say they were evil? No, you called them dangerous.

page 8, post 116

OK then you agree I was right, thanks.




Only to ask a few pages later what a balloon payment was. Why argue a point which you know nothing about?????

post 169

I did not ask what a balloon payment is. If you will look at the post you will find I asked what was this balloon LOAN he keeps talking about. I have heard of balloon payments and knew what they were but did not realise the Loan type using them was also labeled as such.

Agian I was right and I honestly answered you all the first time. It shows how partisan you all are to harp on the tiny details like this and refusing to discuss the real purpose of the thread.

[Kathianne]

I did not ask what a balloon payment is. If you will look at the post you will find I asked what was this balloon LOAN he keeps talking about. I have heard of balloon payments and knew what they were but did not realise the Loan type using them was also labeled as such.

Agian I was right and I honestly answered you all the first time. It shows how partisan you all are to harp on the tiny details like this and refusing to discuss the real purpose of the thread.

You are purposefully obtuse. Yeah, I think you understand that.

[Said1]

You are purposefully obtuse. Yeah, I think you understand that.

I'm starting to think that too. :(

[truthmatters]

Go read the thread and face the facts.

[Mr. P]

what is this ballon loan thing you are talking about?

There were several types of risky loans being used

Interest only , ARMs and the like please realise it is not as simple as you keep trying to make it.


I did not ask what a balloon payment is. If you will look at the post you will find I asked what was this balloon LOAN he keeps talking about. I have heard of balloon payments and knew what they were but did not realise the Loan type using them was also labeled as such.

Agian I was right and I honestly answered you all the first time. It shows how partisan you all are to harp on the tiny details like this and refusing to discuss the real purpose of the thread.

IDIOT!

[truthmatters]

No you are dishonest and refuse to see what I said is nothing but honest.


BTW balloon loans were not part of this current problem and I did not bring them up.

[manu1959]

passive agressive projection.....:laugh2:

[Said1]

passive agressive projection.....:laugh2:

Like, totally. :lmao:

[truthmatters]

passive agressive projection.....:laugh2:

I think you better go look up passive agressive

[Said1]

Go read the thread and face the facts.

Ok. I'll do that, while you post what part of Adam Smith's book you liked the best, like I asked. :)