Sad sad facts [Archive] - Debate Policy

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 12:46 PM

Let's just say that TIME used their UK affiliate to report on that. I've already discussed this before. Men are most likely to commit suicide, though women attempt it more. The most suicides are for those about 15-30. Who serves in the armed forces? Now if you compare the MALE suicide rate for the service v. the male suicide rate in the US, by AGE, would this hold up. No.

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 12:51 PM

Your concdern is overwhelming.

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 12:55 PM

Your concdern is overwhelming.

Your grabbing onto something that is obviously being used to embarrass the government, is pathetic. Your 'sad, sad facts' are not facts.

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 12:57 PM

And your proof that these numbers are wrong is?

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 01:01 PM

And your proof that these numbers are wrong is?

Seriously, all one needs to do is look at suicide stats, which I spent waaaayyyyy too much time doing working on my sociology degree. Thus yes, I'll go with expertise, though anyone looking at suicides over at CDC will see how they are broken down by sex, age, race, etc.

darin

11-15-2007, 01:09 PM

Your grabbing onto something that is obviously being used to embarrass the government, is pathetic. Your 'sad, sad facts' are not facts.

http://www.d-mphotos.com/images/applause.gif

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 01:13 PM

http://www.d-mphotos.com/images/applause.gif

Thanks dmp!

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 01:18 PM

Could you please provide what the "real " numbers are for me then?

chesswarsnow

11-15-2007, 01:22 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. But these suicide rates as they are, are just further proof of how Americans can't stand being in an Islamic Hell Hole.
2. If your an American, you can not believe what its like when you arrive in a Islamic Country.
3. And seeing this, and dealing with that reality, you think, "Damn I would rather be dead than be here"
4. Which some of our brave men, (Just Do It).
5. I don't think that there's a way to prevent this kind of action from these men, Islam is a, *Whole Hellish Reality*, for any, *American Mind*.
6. Most *American Minds*, would prefer actual *Hell* rather than being in an Islamic Country.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

Trigg

11-15-2007, 01:25 PM

Could you please provide what the "real " numbers are for me then?

incapable as well as ignorant

type CDC.......that's not to hard now is it??

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 01:26 PM

Only insults and name calling ?

no facts?

darin

11-15-2007, 01:27 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. But these suicide rates as they are, are just further proof of how Americans can't stand being in an Islamic Hell Hole.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

Veterans. Not just 'iraq' veterans.

Trigg

11-15-2007, 01:35 PM

your article

The suicide rate among Americans as a whole was 8.9 per 100,000, but the level among veterans was at least 18.7. That figure rose to a minimum of 22.9 among veterans aged 20 to 24 – almost four times the nonveteran average for people of the same age.

CDC report:

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5635a2.htm#tab

The suicide rate for males age 20-24 in the US was 20.84 in 2004

The rate is only slightly higher amoung the military.

See you could have done that....it wasn't so hard

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 01:38 PM

your article

CDC report:

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5635a2.htm#tab

The rate is only slightly higher amoung the military.

See you could have done that....it wasn't so hard

What about the last three years?

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 01:41 PM

What about the last three years?

LOL, there is always a time lag while data is gathered and analyzed.

Want to check something that I've been thinking about? Women in the military, with their familiarity with firearms, are they more successful at committing suicide v. civilian women of the same age? It's always been 'assumed' that women didn't like the idea of 'guns' to kill oneself, which is hypothesized to be the reason that while attempting suicide in far greater numbers, males are much more successful. (I know, that sounds bad).

Trigg

11-15-2007, 01:49 PM

LOL, there is always a time lag while data is gathered and analyzed.

You'd think someone with as much life experience as she supposedly has, would already know that.

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 01:58 PM

LOL, there is always a time lag while data is gathered and analyzed.

Want to check something that I've been thinking about? Women in the military, with their familiarity with firearms, are they more successful at committing suicide v. civilian women of the same age? It's always been 'assumed' that women didn't like the idea of 'guns' to kill oneself, which is hypothesized to be the reason that while attempting suicide in far greater numbers, males are much more successful. (I know, that sounds bad).

Then how is it you all seem to know these numbers are wrong?

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 02:11 PM

Then how is it you all seem to know these numbers are wrong?

Sigh. Did you read Triggs post? That is what we are talking about, comparing apples with apples. Seriously. I don't think I've called you names, but darn if I wouldn't like to shake you!

AFbombloader

11-15-2007, 03:19 PM

Where did they get their statistics from? I could not see anywhere in the article. Except CBS News, who would never make up anything (Dan Rather and the Air National Guard papers). I just spent the last 20 minutes looking through the VA, DoD, Army and other .mil weabsits looking for anything that would back this up. If it is true, we do need to do something. But with statistice so far off from anything I could find, I have a hard time swallowing it. Anybody find anything to support this?

FYI - I did find that active army had 83 in a 2005.
www.militaryconnections.com/news_story.cfm?textnewsid=1...

AF:salute:

AFbombloader

11-15-2007, 03:25 PM

Another article, different stats in this too.

http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/2007/11/07/CampusLife/A.Search.For.Causes.Of.Veteran.Suicide-3083883.shtml

AF:salute:

JohnDoe

11-15-2007, 03:59 PM

Some veterans' groups criticized the Army for suggesting the service did not have a problem because the soldiers' suicide rate was lower than the civilian rate.

"We are concerned that the Army is equating the suicide rate in Iraq with that of the general population," said Wayne Smith, a spokesman for the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation and a Vietnam combat medic. "This is misleading in the extreme, given that military personnel are supposed to be screened for the kind of psychiatric disturbances that can lead to suicide. To suggest that the Army's suicide rate is not worrisome, based on this comparison, only further confuses the issue."

Also this is another article I found, and NONE of the articles that I have found seem to have the same figures???? BUT THIS ONE BELOW, speaks of the 900 plus attempted suicides that took place also in 2006:

The report found that a soldier is more likely to attempt suicide if he or she has served more than one tour in a war zone, but it didn't measure how much that risk increases with each deployment. The findings "suggest that combat exposure may be more of a risk factor for suicide behaviors after soldiers redeploy," the report said.

In all, the report said that there had been 99 suicides confirmed among active-duty soldiers during 2006, up from 88 in 2005. Of those, 70 percent were under the age of 25, and 51 percent were never married. Another 948 attempted suicide in 2006, the report found.

The statistics are the highest since 1980, when the military began tracking suicide rates.

The mental health of soldiers and Marines has been a growing issue as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have required more troops to return to the combat zones multiple times.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/18996.html

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 04:07 PM

Also this is another article I found, and NONE of the articles that I have found seem to have the same figures???? BUT THIS ONE BELOW, speaks of the 900 plus attempted suicides that took place also in 2006:

I understand your consternation with the stats, same thing here. However your site is unlikely to be writing something without bias in position. Seems to be slanted, a tad:

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AFbombloader

11-15-2007, 04:16 PM

I understand your consternation with the stats, same thing here. However your site is unlikely to be writing something without bias in position. Seems to be slanted, a tad:

All websites slant the info to support what they want. My concern for the original article is that none of us can find these numbers anywhere. And we are all looking at differens sites. Very odd don't you think? At least one website should have the numbers...

AF:salute:

Monkeybone

11-15-2007, 04:20 PM

All websites slant the info to support what they want. My concern for the original article is that none of us can find these numbers anywhere. And we are all looking at differens sites. Very odd don't you think? At least one website should have the numbers...

AF:salute:

well, when you pull stuff out of your ass over a smaller problem, then you have to be careful incase a researched study comes out instead of an assumed one.

that said, this is a bad thing if it is happening and needs to be taken care of. i am not demeaning it or anything. not saying that this is a small thing that happens all the time that we should just shrug off. but at the same time (devil's advocate) how can they possibly screen every single person. even if they can, do they get to that individual in time before they do something to themselves

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 04:21 PM

AFbombloader

11-15-2007, 04:26 PM

well, when you pull stuff out of your ass over a smaller problem, then you have to be careful incase a researched study comes out instead of an assumed one.

that said, this is a bad thing if it is happening and needs to be taken care of. i am not demeaning it or anything. not saying that this is a small thing that happens all the time that we should just shrug off. but at the same time (devil's advocate) how can they possibly screen every single person. even if they can, do they get to that individual in time before they do something to themselves

I won't pretend to understand what these brave men go through. I am a veteran of two wars, but as an Air Force member it is different for me. What I do know is that there are avenues for assistance that are either not being used or not being made knows to these men. One suicide is to many. We need to make sure my brothers in arms know who to go to for help. That being said I will make a devils advocate statement. How many of these men knew about the help but didn't go? I know for a fact that you have to go through classes on transitioning from the Air Force to the civilian sector, and I know the Army has them as well.

AF:salute:

Monkeybone

11-15-2007, 04:27 PM

AFbombloader

11-15-2007, 04:41 PM

i would also like to see if these Soldiers that did committ suicide were any of the ones that had been badly injured/lost a limb/disfigured in anyways. not saying that gives a better reason, but just trying to see if it is something like that or just completely spread out

One thing that this article did not specify was what conflict the veterans were from. We cannot assume they are all Iraqi Freedon veterans.

AF:salute:

manu1959

11-15-2007, 04:49 PM

i would also like to see if these Soldiers that did committ suicide were any of the ones that had been badly injured/lost a limb/disfigured in anyways. not saying that gives a better reason, but just trying to see if it is something like that or just completely spread out

from what i understand from listening to the news...the answer is yes ..... people are surving combat that in the old days would have died.....better care, body armour etc....they survive the inital attack but can not survive the war...

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 04:54 PM

One thing that this article did not specify was what conflict the veterans were from. We cannot assume they are all Iraqi Freedon veterans.

AF:salute:

Not only that, from the stats one cannot tell they are actually in the hot wars at all. Someone said even one suicide is too many, I agree. Yet, if you check CDC site for young men in US, it's high. My guess is the age, sex, suicide numbers are probably not all that different. Me thinks this was TIME UK, feeding the anti-war/anti-American Brits.

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 04:58 PM

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_investigates/main3496471.shtml

more info

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_investigates/main3498625.shtml

The studies methodology

Over the course of five months, CBS News contacted vital statistics offices in all 50 states asking them to provide all of their suicide data from 1995 to 2005. The vital statistics offices have access to suicide data from death certificates.

Forty-five states provided us with raw suicide numbers. Of those, 40 states provided us “cross classified” resident suicide data for the years 2004 and 2005, which we used to statistically calculate rates of suicide for the entire country. (“Cross-classified” is the type of format necessary to run adjusted rates of suicide.)

We asked the acting head of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Georgia, Steve Rathbun, to calculate the rate of suicide for 2004 to 2005. Rathbun adjusted the rates of suicide for age, gender and any potential error in the gathering of the raw data by the states. The results reflect that potential margin of error by showing a range in the rates of suicide among veterans.

Veteran population numbers were obtained by CBS News from the Department of Veterans Affairs and general population numbers came from the U.S. Census Bureau.

darin

11-15-2007, 05:05 PM

What's your compassionate, caring heart got YOU doing about this, TM?

Nothing but jumping through your ass at every oppotunity to turn your false caring of Veterans into an attack on the President.

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 05:06 PM

dupe

Kathianne

11-15-2007, 05:07 PM

Once again, were ages and sex correlated? If not, the military vets should have been very low-few commit suicide in their 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's. Then the numbers slowly start to rise, as health fails. Just because CBS has stats, doesn't mean that they or their hired prof didn't have a story to 'sell.' I know, that would be so surprising.

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 05:23 PM

What's your compassionate, caring heart got YOU doing about this, TM?

Nothing but jumping through your ass at every oppotunity to turn your false caring of Veterans into an attack on the President.

Please go back and read my every post in this thread and tell me where I said anything about blaming this president or anyone?

I so wish people would just use that facts for a change.

avatar4321

11-15-2007, 05:23 PM

And your proof that these numbers are wrong is?

I think you have this backwards. You are the one who are asserting numbers. You have to prove they are correct before anyone needs to counter them.

darin

11-15-2007, 05:25 PM

Please go back and read my every post in this thread and tell me where I said anything about blaming this president or anyone?

I so wish people would just use that facts for a change.

We keep giving you facts. You keep saying 'nuh-uh!!' and changing the subject.

(shrug).

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 05:26 PM

We keep giving you facts. You keep saying 'nuh-uh!!' and changing the subject.

(shrug).

Please show me an example of this?

truthmatters

11-15-2007, 05:27 PM

I think you have this backwards. You are the one who are asserting numbers. You have to prove they are correct before anyone needs to counter them.

I already did.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n3498625.shtml

The studies methodology

Over the course of five months, CBS News contacted vital statistics offices in all 50 states asking them to provide all of their suicide data from 1995 to 2005. The vital statistics offices have access to suicide data from death certificates.

Forty-five states provided us with raw suicide numbers. Of those, 40 states provided us “cross classified” resident suicide data for the years 2004 and 2005, which we used to statistically calculate rates of suicide for the entire country. (“Cross-classified” is the type of format necessary to run adjusted rates of suicide.)

We asked the acting head of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Georgia, Steve Rathbun, to calculate the rate of suicide for 2004 to 2005. Rathbun adjusted the rates of suicide for age, gender and any potential error in the gathering of the raw data by the states. The results reflect that potential margin of error by showing a range in the rates of suicide among veterans.

Veteran population numbers were obtained by CBS News from the Department of Veterans Affairs and general population numbers came from the U.S. Census Bureau.