PDA

View Full Version : Army desertion rate up 80 percent



gabosaurus
11-17-2007, 01:46 AM
With the state of our government, I can see why. Your commander in chief starts an illegal war, send you over on a tour of duty, lies about when you can return, lies about how long you have between tours, lies about how long your tour of duty is. All sorts of crap.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071117/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_deserters

stephanie
11-17-2007, 01:58 AM
:uhoh::cuckoo:

gabosaurus
11-17-2007, 12:26 PM
See what Malkin has to say about my thread, then get back to me.

truthmatters
11-17-2007, 12:36 PM
It is honorable to refuse to serve in some conditions.



http://desertpeace.blogspot.com/2007/11/update-on-watada-victory.html


Victory for Iraq war refuser


Supporters of First Lt. Ehren Watada rejoiced over a federal judge’s injunction last week barring a new court-martial for the officer who refused to serve in Iraq. But they also urged stepped-up pressure to drop all charges and release Watada from the Army with an honorable discharge.

Watada is the first U.S. commissioned officer to publicly refuse to go to Iraq. Last year, after criticizing the Iraq war as an illegal occupation, he refused to deploy there with his Stryker Brigade. The Army rejected his offer to serve instead in Afghanistan.

Because he spoke out publicly against the Iraq war, the Army added the charge of conduct unbecoming an officer.

U.S. District Court Judge Benjamin Settle issued a temporary injunction barring a second court-martial. The judge said Watada would probably be successful in asserting that his Fifth Amendment rights would be violated by being tried twice for the same crime, otherwise known as double jeopardy.

Pale Rider
11-17-2007, 04:12 PM
With the state of our government, I can see why. Your commander in chief starts an illegal war, send you over on a tour of duty, lies about when you can return, lies about how long you have between tours, lies about how long your tour of duty is. All sorts of crap.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071117/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_deserters

I don't think there's any denying our troops have been worked to the bone. Regular troops, reserve troops that we shouldn't even be using, tours extended, tours double, tripled and even quadrupled because we don't have enough man power. It's a crying shame to treat our men and women in uniform like this. A crying fucking shame. If we're going to fight these kind of nation building battles with no end in sight, we need a draft, plain and simple. It's just criminal treat to the people we do have in uniform like this, and this is coming from a veteran.

WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IF WE EXPECT TO KEEP UP THE PACE WE HAVE.

Kathianne
11-17-2007, 04:15 PM
Pale, when you start to buy into Gabby's spin, you really need to take a deep breath:

http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/Army_desertion_rate_highest_since_1_11162007.html

From the link:


...Army desertion rates have fluctuated since the Vietnam War when they peaked at 5 percent. In the 1970s they hovered between 1 and 3 percent, which is up to three out of every 100 soldiers. Those rates plunged in the 1980s and early 1990s to between 2 and 3 out of every 1,000 soldiers.

Desertions began to creep up in the late 1990s into the turn of the century, when the U.S. conducted an air war in Kosovo and later sent peacekeeping troops there.

The numbers declined in 2003 and 2004, in the early years of the Iraq war, but then began to increase steadily.

In contrast, the Navy has seen a steady decline in deserters since 2001, going from 3,665 that year to 1,129 in 2007.

The Marine Corps, meanwhile, has seen the number of deserters stay fairly stable over that timeframe with about 1,000 deserters a year. During 2003 and 2004 the first two years of the Iraq war the number of deserters fell to 877 and 744, respectively.

The Air Force can tout the fewest number of deserters with no more than 56 bolting in each of the past five years. The low was in fiscal 2007, with just 16 deserters.

Despite the continued increase in Army desertions, however, an Associated Press examination of Pentagon figures earlier this year showed that the military does little to find those who bolt, and rarely prosecutes the ones they find. Some are allowed to simply return to their units, while most are given less-than-honorable discharges.

"My personal opinion is the only way to stop desertions is to change the climate ... how they are living and doing what they need to do," said Wallace, adding that good officers and more attention from Army leaders could "go a long way to stemming desertions."

Unlike those in the Vietnam era, deserters from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars may not find Canada a safe haven.

Just this week, the Supreme Court of Canada refused to hear the appeals of two Army deserters who sought refugee status to avoid the war in Iraq. The ruling left them without a legal basis to stay in Canada and dealt a blow to other Americans in similar circumstances...

Pale Rider
11-17-2007, 04:55 PM
Pale, when you start to buy into Gabby's spin, you really need to take a deep breath:

http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/Army_desertion_rate_highest_since_1_11162007.html

From the link:

Well with all due respect Kath, your numbers are kind of old. It's 2007, not 2004.

Maybe you should read this...

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/homecinema/0,39029447,49291679,00.htm

and this...

Strained Army Extends Tours To 15 Months
Move Is Needed for Iraq Troop Increase

By Ann Scott Tyson and Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, April 12, 2007; Page A01

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates announced yesterday that all active-duty soldiers currently deployed or going to Iraq and Afghanistan will see their one-year tours extended to 15 months, acknowledging that such a strain on the war-weary Army is necessary should the ongoing troop increase be prolonged well into next year.

The decision -- coming three months after President Bush put forth his new security plan for Iraq, including the deployment of at least 28,000 additional troops there -- reflects the reality that the new strategy is unfeasible without introducing longer Army tours.

The across-the-board extension will affect more than 100,000 active-duty soldiers and will result in the longest combat tours for the Army since World War II. It will also mandate for the first time that active-duty soldiers spend more time at war than at home.

"This recognizes . . . that our forces are stretched. There's no question about that," Gates told reporters at the Pentagon.

Calling the longer tours "difficult but necessary," he said that all active-duty Army units in the Middle East, Central Asia and the Horn of Africa -- as well as those deploying there -- will serve up to 15 months, effective immediately, with the exception of two brigades that have already been extended. He made it clear that most units should expect 15-month tours.

"This decision will ask a lot of our Army troops and their families," Gates said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/11/AR2007041100615.html

There's more... MUCH more about this. Don't kid yourself that our Army isn't worn to a frazle. They are.

Kathianne
11-17-2007, 05:00 PM
Well with all due respect Kath, your numbers are kind of old. It's 2007, not 2004.

Maybe you should read this...

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/homecinema/0,39029447,49291679,00.htm

and this...

Strained Army Extends Tours To 15 Months
Move Is Needed for Iraq Troop Increase

By Ann Scott Tyson and Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, April 12, 2007; Page A01

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates announced yesterday that all active-duty soldiers currently deployed or going to Iraq and Afghanistan will see their one-year tours extended to 15 months, acknowledging that such a strain on the war-weary Army is necessary should the ongoing troop increase be prolonged well into next year.

The decision -- coming three months after President Bush put forth his new security plan for Iraq, including the deployment of at least 28,000 additional troops there -- reflects the reality that the new strategy is unfeasible without introducing longer Army tours.

The across-the-board extension will affect more than 100,000 active-duty soldiers and will result in the longest combat tours for the Army since World War II. It will also mandate for the first time that active-duty soldiers spend more time at war than at home.

"This recognizes . . . that our forces are stretched. There's no question about that," Gates told reporters at the Pentagon.

Calling the longer tours "difficult but necessary," he said that all active-duty Army units in the Middle East, Central Asia and the Horn of Africa -- as well as those deploying there -- will serve up to 15 months, effective immediately, with the exception of two brigades that have already been extended. He made it clear that most units should expect 15-month tours.

"This decision will ask a lot of our Army troops and their families," Gates said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/11/AR2007041100615.html

There's more... MUCH more about this. Don't kid yourself that our Army isn't worn to a frazle. They are.
Pale, the link brought me to a speakers site.

Kathianne
11-17-2007, 05:02 PM
Pale, when I google 2007 desertions, I keep coming up with the same AP story originally posted.

Pale Rider
11-17-2007, 05:14 PM
Pale, when I google 2007 desertions, I keep coming up with the same AP story originally posted.

Sorry about the speaker link... me and manu are PM'ing about audio stuff.

But my point is simply that are troops are worn out and stretched thin, that's all. And that's spoken about in the article I posted above. You can find MUCH written about it too... facts... from military commanders. That is why I can see it if desertion rates are up. It just makes sense.

Kathianne
11-17-2007, 05:20 PM
Sorry about the speaker link... me and manu are PM'ing about audio stuff.

But my point is simply that are troops are worn out and stretched thin, that's all. And that's spoken about in the article I posted above. You can find MUCH written about it too... facts... from military commanders. That is why I can see it if desertion rates are up. It just makes sense.

I don't disagree, though I really don't think that 'the draft' is the answer. It will have to wait until 2008, but we need to enlarge the military, substantially. It seems the Democrats now want to get rid of private contractors too, which means the military will now have to train others to do that function. Conscription may have to be the answer. Still, it will take funding, which right now the Dems are playing games with.

Pale Rider
11-17-2007, 05:25 PM
I don't disagree, though I really don't think that 'the draft' is the answer. It will have to wait until 2008, but we need to enlarge the military, substantially. It seems the Democrats now want to get rid of private contractors too, which means the military will now have to train others to do that function. Conscription may have to be the answer. Still, it will take funding, which right now the Dems are playing games with.

Yeah the Pentagon is headed for a funding train wreck. They're already giving out 60 day in advance, required notices to union employees.

I think we need a draft. Hell we had one during Viet Nam. Why shouldn't we have one now? I think it's a good place for all those illegal aliens. Want a fast track to citizenship? Spend three years in the Army. There's ten, fifteen million able bodied siolders right there. Don't want to do three years in the Army? OK now you can REALLY bet you're going to be deported.

Kathianne
11-17-2007, 05:36 PM
Yeah the Pentagon is headed for a funding train wreck. They're already giving out 60 day in advance, required notices to union employees.

I think we need a draft. Hell we had one during Viet Nam. Why shouldn't we have one now? I think it's a good place for all those illegal aliens. Want a fast track to citizenship? Spend three years in the Army. There's ten, fifteen million able bodied siolders right there. Don't want to do three years in the Army? OK now you can REALLY bet you're going to be deported.
Actually I've always thought that if illegals here volunteered and could get through some vetting program, that is the one exception I could live with. Then fine, come to the colleges, etc.

Yurt
11-17-2007, 05:58 PM
With the state of our government, I can see why. Your commander in chief starts an illegal war, send you over on a tour of duty, lies about when you can return, lies about how long you have between tours, lies about how long your tour of duty is. All sorts of crap.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071117/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_deserters

Yours too :dance:

stephanie
11-17-2007, 06:39 PM
See what Malkin has to say about my thread, then get back to me.

Michelle told me to post this...

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/crazy.gif

:laugh2:

Yurt
11-17-2007, 08:42 PM
Actually, how can the desertion rate be 80% and our are military still function?

If this has been asked, ooops...but don't read every post.

Gaffer
11-18-2007, 09:38 PM
A draft would serve only one purpose. Give fuel to the liberals as something to bitch about. It would increase the number of desertions because there would be a lot more people there that don't want to be.

Nowhere in the articles did I see why the people were deserting. That is an important factor and in the cases I have personally seen in the past, deserters did it for personal reasons. Home sick, money problems, girlfriend problems. None had anything to do with the war or their political affiliation.

The easiest way to reduce combat tours is to add more divisions, which allows for more recruiting. Lowering a few standards would work too. They would have to do that in order to draft anyway.

gabosaurus
11-19-2007, 11:51 AM
We don't need a draft. We need to stop creating wars for illegal and immoral reasons. We need to reduce our military expenditures, not add to them.

Pale Rider
11-19-2007, 12:31 PM
We don't need a draft. We need to stop creating wars for illegal and immoral reasons. We need to reduce our military expenditures, not add to them.

I think we do need a draft. I think we need to DOUBLE the size of our military. Whether or not I'm in 100% agreement with what we've done in Iraq is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that there's an entire religious cult of zealous radical islamic jihadists that all want to see us DEAD, and they won't stop until they've accomplished their mission. We should be fighting them. Tracking them down where ever they are and killing them, without hesitation, and we're going to need a big, strong, well funded and equipped military to carry out that mission over the next few decades, or however long it takes.

Trigg
11-19-2007, 01:32 PM
With the state of our government, I can see why. Your commander in chief starts an illegal war, send you over on a tour of duty, lies about when you can return, lies about how long you have between tours, lies about how long your tour of duty is. All sorts of crap.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071117/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_deserters


posted by gabo on another thread:


I expect people to post their own thoughts occasionally. If I want to read extreme right wing propaganda, I know where to find it.

Hey gabo, follow your own advice.

Trigg
11-19-2007, 01:38 PM
You left out a little on your topic. The rate is up 80% from 2003, the article says it is up 42% since last year which adds up to about 1,400 more.


According to the Army, about nine in every 1,000 soldiers deserted in fiscal year 2007, which ended Sept. 30, compared to nearly seven per 1,000 a year earlier. Overall, 4,698 soldiers deserted this year, compared to 3,301 last yea

Trigg
11-19-2007, 01:41 PM
Well with all due respect Kath, your numbers are kind of old. It's 2007, not 2004.


I know I'm jumping into your conversation with kathianne, but you might want to re-read what she posted. She pulled those numbers from the article gabo had, the numbers clearly say they're from 2007

AFbombloader
11-19-2007, 04:39 PM
Actually, how can the desertion rate be 80% and our are military still function?

If this has been asked, ooops...but don't read every post.

The Army did not have 80% of it desert, its rate went up 80%. The title made it sound that way, I wonder if it was meant to???

AF:salute:

Pale Rider
11-20-2007, 10:15 AM
I know I'm jumping into your conversation with kathianne, but you might want to re-read what she posted. She pulled those numbers from the article gabo had, the numbers clearly say they're from 2007

So it does, I apologize and stand corrected.

Kathianne
11-21-2007, 08:10 AM
Problem with stats, the interpretation is dependent on the one interpreting. Then there is the possibility of an agenda, I know that it's difficult to believe, but considering that this headline nearly coincided with the 'epidemic of military suicides' that had as many or more problems with stats, well just saying:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/military_desertion_rates_and_t.html


...
ARMY
1997 2,218 4.58 per 1,000

1998 2,525 5.20 per 1,000

1999 2,966 6.13 per 1,000

2000 3,949 8.16 per 1,000

2001 4,597 9.50 per 1,000

2002 4,483 9.26 per 1,000

2003 3,678 7.60 per 1,000

2004 2,376 4.91 per 1,000


Marine Corps

1997 1,375 7.94 per 1,000

1998 1,460 8.43 per 1,000

1999 1,689 9.75 per 1,000

2000 2,019 11.66 per 1,000

2001 1,310 7.57 per 1,000

2002 1,136 6.56 per 1,000

2003 1,236 7.14 per 1,000

2004 1,297 7.49 per 1,000


Look at the above rates of Army desertion in the years just prior to the Iraq war. Years 2000, 2001, and 2002 (8.16, 9.5, 9.26) show higher rates than we have had during this terrible quagmire of an Iraq war, with its multiple tours of duty.

Why doesn't AP correspondent Lolita C. Baldur discuss that?

Powers states that in the fiscal year the Iraq war began (the invasion was March 2003) the desertion rate was 7.6 per 1,000, the same as 2006, a terrible year for the U.S. in Iraq. The AP article seems to be confused as to fiscal years. According to Powers, the desertion rate was quite low, 4.91, for fiscal year 2004 (from October 1, 2003 through September 30, 2004), not fiscal 2003 as stated in the AP article.

A rate of less that 5 per 1,000 eight months after the start of the Iraq War? This is a rate that was much lower than the rate prior to the begininng of the Iraq War.

The AP article also does a poor job of putting these desertion rates in historical context. It was just a year and a half ago that another news organization was exclaiming how historically low the desertion rates were then: "U.S. Military Desertion Rate Drops"

With about 15 minutes of internet research, even a non-journalist can put the Iraq War desertion rates in context. What was the desertion rate during World War II?


"Desertion during World War II was no less a problem than in previous wars. Desertion rates peaked at 6.3% [that's 63 per 1,000] in 1944, but dropped to 4.5% [45 per 1,000] the following year. During the war, 21,049 soldiers were sentenced for desertion..." Desertion And the American Soldier: 1776-2006, Robert Fantina, Page 116.

That was "The Greatest Generation"! So how great is today's generation of soldiers who have a desertion rate of 1/10th the rate of The Greatest?

Of all the guys who served during World War II, over two thirds of them were drafted. What percent of today's soldiers are draftees?

...

Sertes
11-21-2007, 02:09 PM
Nowhere in the articles did I see why the people were deserting. That is an important factor and in the cases I have personally seen in the past, deserters did it for personal reasons. Home sick, money problems, girlfriend problems. None had anything to do with the war or their political affiliation.

Yes, sure, it's just as you tell it, people are deserting for personal factors, not because the Iraq war, it's just coincidences. 2007 was a good year for being home sick, having money problems (which solve if you desert, of course) or having girlfriend issues.

:slap:

OrnotBitwise
11-21-2007, 03:28 PM
Now me, I'd rather they all deserted. That would certainly shake up what needs shaking. :poke:

Nukeman
11-21-2007, 04:12 PM
Now me, I'd rather they all deserted. That would certainly shake up what needs shaking. :poke:
Who exactly would be there to protect your freedom to spew this type or tripe.

Ohhh by the way welcome to the board hopefully your next post will have a little more substance to it. I'm guessing that trughdoesntmatter (desh) sent you over here form some other board, please correct me if I'm wrong!!!:poke:

darin
11-21-2007, 04:22 PM
My office is 90% deserted today. :)

Gaffer
11-21-2007, 04:33 PM
Yes, sure, it's just as you tell it, people are deserting for personal factors, not because the Iraq war, it's just coincidences. 2007 was a good year for being home sick, having money problems (which solve if you desert, of course) or having girlfriend issues.

:slap:

It IS just as I "tell it". Desertions are for personal reasons and not partisan ones. And their problems are not solved by going AWOL they are increased, as these people always find out.

Psychoblues
11-22-2007, 01:41 AM
Desertions are caused by an unwillingness to subject oneself to further humiliation by a perceived unjust war. Period.



It IS just as I "tell it". Desertions are for personal reasons and not partisan ones. And their problems are not solved by going AWOL they are increased, as these people always find out.

When prison seems better than further humiliation and personal insult what is wrong with the reasons or what is wrong with the propaganda? That is the real question for you, guffer.

Kathianne
11-22-2007, 01:42 AM
Desertions are caused by an unwillingness to subject oneself to further humiliation by a perceived unjust war. Period.




When prison seems better than further humiliation and personal insult what is wrong with the reasons or what is wrong with the propaganda? That is the real question for you, guffer.

So all the deserters from WWII were justified.

Psychoblues
11-22-2007, 01:58 AM
Naw, just the ones you're complaining about.


So all the deserters from WWII were justified.

You simpleminded reichwingers are really all alike, aren't you?

stephanie
11-22-2007, 03:53 AM
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/crazy.gif

Psychoblues
11-24-2007, 12:20 AM
I was certain that you wouldn't get it either, staphy.




http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/crazy.gif

And you proved it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

stephanie
11-24-2007, 12:35 AM
I was certain that you wouldn't get it either, staphy.





And you proved it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/music015.gifhttp://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/music015.gif http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/music015.gif

Psychoblues
11-24-2007, 12:38 AM
How'd you know I played the drums?



http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/music015.gifhttp://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/music015.gif http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/music015.gif

Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa would watch me in admiration!!!!!!!!!!!!

You still don't get it, do you?

stephanie
11-24-2007, 12:54 AM
How'd you know I played the drums?




Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa would watch me in admiration!!!!!!!!!!!!

You still don't get it, do you?



http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/juggle.gif http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/juggle.gif http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/juggle.gif

:laugh2:

Psychoblues
11-24-2007, 01:21 AM
I do a lot of things but I don't try to juggle, staphy.



http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/juggle.gif http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/juggle.gif http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/juggle.gif

:laugh2:

Other than senseless keyboarding, what do you do?

stephanie
11-24-2007, 01:34 AM
I do a lot of things but I don't try to juggle, staphy.




Other than senseless keyboarding, what do you do?

I laugh a lot..sometimes at others, but especially at myself...I find myself very funny at times...

You should try it...:slap:

Psychoblues
11-24-2007, 01:50 AM
I respect the board as a serious attempt to address serious subjects, staphy.



I laugh a lot..sometimes at others, but especially at myself...I find myself very funny at times...

You should try it...:slap:

You're correct. I need to lighten up. Have you talked to the moderators about this proposal?

stephanie
11-24-2007, 02:05 AM
I respect the board as a serious attempt to address serious subjects, staphy.




You're correct. I need to lighten up. Have you talked to the moderators about this proposal?

Oh my...I didn't realize after all these yrs. here....we weren't suppose to have a little funny times....
I'll go and ask permission as soon as I can..

And if you were so damn serious....You wouldn't of called me Staphy for the last five yrs...But yet...I still http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/1lmao.gifevery time I see it...

You CAN be a real joke.....ster at times...

cherrios...:cheers2:

Psychoblues
11-24-2007, 02:20 AM
You're the one who keeps up the nonsense, staphy.


Oh my...I didn't realize after all these yrs. here....we weren't suppose to have a little funny times....
I'll go and ask permission as soon as I can..

And if you were so damn serious....You wouldn't of called me Staphy for the last five yrs...But yet...I still http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/1lmao.gifevery time I see it...

cherrios...:cheers2:

I have attempted on many occasions to engage you in serious conversation and you answer with emoticons and no opinion. You really are staphy like a goddamned staph infection!!!!!!!!!!!!

stephanie
11-24-2007, 02:33 AM
You're the one who keeps up the nonsense, staphy.



I have attempted on many occasions to engage you in serious conversation and you answer with emoticons and no opinion. You really are staphy like a goddamned staph infection!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chill pill my dear...I will never engage you in any type of serious conversation.
I didn't engage you in a conversation in this thread, until you dragged me into it...then of course I had to respond...:laugh2:


And I've always loved the Staphy name...it just showed your low grade mentality...so I posted the emoticons for you, cause I figured that was at your level...Now go have a Busch beer..mellow down some...
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/hatsoff.gif

Psychoblues
11-26-2007, 12:45 AM
I appreciate the Busch, staphy.


Chill pill my dear...I will never engage you in any type of serious conversation.
I didn't engage you in a conversation in this thread, until you dragged me into it...then of course I had to respond...:laugh2:


And I've always loved the Staphy name...it just showed your low grade mentality...so I posted the emoticons for you, cause I figured that was at your level...Now go have a Busch beer..mellow down some...
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/alaskamomma/hatsoff.gif

I think they're doing kareoke in the Lounge. Go over there and sing your heart out!!!!!!!!!!