Illegals -- WHY do they come here?

[gabosaurus]

I apologize in advance for asking you to put aside your bitter hatred and animosity toward illegal aliens and instead speculate as to why they want to come to this country in the first place. Do they just have it in for decent, honest Americans? Are they here for a free lunch?
I know I am just asking for this thread to denigrate into another round of Mexican bashing, but I will ask for intelligent replies anyway.

[jimnyc]

I think it's because they can get jobs and live well with the money they make by living off what the US offers. The cheesy wages they make sure go a lot further when you milk the taxpayers and avoid paying into the system yourself.

[truthmatters]

They send the money home to family in Mexico in many cases.

[gabosaurus]

So you are saying that Illegal aliens who hold jobs do not have to pay the same withholdings that everyone else does?
How does that happen?

[April15]

They come here because their moma don't rock and their daddy don't roll, where do you go. USA looks good Jose!

[jimnyc]

So you are saying that Illegal aliens who hold jobs do not have to pay the same withholdings that everyone else does?
How does that happen?

Because tons of them get jobs with Uncle Pedro's lawncare business, who is an illegal himself, so he doesn't withhold anything, or pay anything himself. The others get jobs from the scumbag americans who think it's ok to beat the system and avoid taxing their employees so they can pay lower wages.

[gabosaurus]

Because tons of them get jobs with Uncle Pedro's lawncare business, who is an illegal himself, so he doesn't withhold anything, or pay anything himself. The others get jobs from the scumbag americans who think it's ok to beat the system and avoid taxing their employees so they can pay lower wages.

And, of course, good legal Americans NEVER do this...

[jimnyc]

And, of course, good legal Americans NEVER do this...

American or not, they should be prosecuted. The difference being, the illegal should get sentenced to a swift kick in the ass leaving him landing in the country he came from.

[Pale Rider]

I apologize in advance for asking you to put aside your bitter hatred and animosity toward illegal aliens and instead speculate as to why they want to come to this country in the first place. Do they just have it in for decent, honest Americans? Are they here for a free lunch?
I know I am just asking for this thread to denigrate into another round of Mexican bashing, but I will ask for intelligent replies anyway.

First of all, I don't "hate" Mexicans. I "hate" people that enter my country illegally. They didn't respect my border, and that doesn't set well with me. The other side of that same coin is, if I entered their country illegally the way entered mine, my ass would be up shit crick. They have nothing to complain about as far as the treatment they've gotten thus far in this country. Nothing.

Second, the answer is multiple reasons. Some good, some bad. Some come here to work and send money back to Mexico, which is the third largest economic boom there. Others come because they believe the southwest was stolen from them and they want it back. See Reconquista. (http://www.americanpatrol.com/ADS/ReconquistaReelectio970719.html) Others are here purely as criminals, gang bangers, vagrants, drug pushers, etc..

But I have a question for you now. Most everyone here knows you are intimately involved with hispanics, some illegal. Why do you ask questions that you yourself should be able to answer?

[Kathianne]

So you are saying that Illegal aliens who hold jobs do not have to pay the same withholdings that everyone else does?
How does that happen?

Often paid below average wages, even *gasp* below minimum wage, in cash.

[Kathianne]

And, of course, good legal Americans NEVER do this...

Not for below average wages.

[gabosaurus]

Excellent points, Pale. The reason I ask here is because I wanted to see how few posters know the real reasons why illegal aliens cross the border. Of course, way too few are willing to put aside their prejudice and hostility long enough to think things out.

The primary reason is because they can. Our government (both parties) is too weak willed to close the border. Staying in office (or gain that office) is more important than doing their job. We are also afraid to get tough with the Mexican government. Whose corrupt wage scale and pandering to the big companies who prop them up make crossing the border almost a necessity to many Mexicans.

Look at it this way: Suppose you have a big family in your home. You have no food left, no money to buy food and no job to earn money. Your next door neighbor not only has an abundant supply of food, but leaves his doors unlocked while he is gone.
If you don't recognize this situation, then you have never been destitute.

[Yurt]

Why do people murder for financial gain?

Why do people steal for financial gain?

Why do people sell drugs for financial gain?


Do you support these people gabby?

edit:

saw your post regarding "never being destitute." same argument could be made for thieves as you make for illegals. both steal for their own benefit. do you support thieves?

[manu1959]

Excellent points, Pale. The reason I ask here is because I wanted to see how few posters know the real reasons why illegal aliens cross the border. Of course, way too few are willing to put aside their prejudice and hostility long enough to think things out.

The primary reason is because they can. Our government (both parties) is too weak willed to close the border. Staying in office (or gain that office) is more important than doing their job. We are also afraid to get tough with the Mexican government. Whose corrupt wage scale and pandering to the big companies who prop them up make crossing the border almost a necessity to many Mexicans.

Look at it this way: Suppose you have a big family in your home. You have no food left, no money to buy food and no job to earn money. Your next door neighbor not only has an abundant supply of food, but leaves his doors unlocked while he is gone.
If you don't recognize this situation, then you have never been destitute.

i have been broke and homeless....i did not steal from my neighbor.....

[Pale Rider]

Excellent points, Pale. The reason I ask here is because I wanted to see how few posters know the real reasons why illegal aliens cross the border. Of course, way too few are willing to put aside their prejudice and hostility long enough to think things out.

The primary reason is because they can. Our government (both parties) is too weak willed to close the border. Staying in office (or gain that office) is more important than doing their job. We are also afraid to get tough with the Mexican government. Whose corrupt wage scale and pandering to the big companies who prop them up make crossing the border almost a necessity to many Mexicans.

Look at it this way: Suppose you have a big family in your home. You have no food left, no money to buy food and no job to earn money. Your next door neighbor not only has an abundant supply of food, but leaves his doors unlocked while he is gone.
If you don't recognize this situation, then you have never been destitute.

Well... all that's true. I can't argue with it at all. But as others are pointing out, and I will too, that doesn't excuse them from breaking the law.

[Kathianne]

Well... all that's true. I can't argue with it at all. But as others are pointing out, and I will too, that doesn't excuse them from breaking the law.

I agree and add that they, meaning the 'ruling class' benefits via child care, home care, lawn care, etc. they are very reticient about nixing them.

[avatar4321]

I apologize in advance for asking you to put aside your bitter hatred and animosity toward illegal aliens and instead speculate as to why they want to come to this country in the first place. Do they just have it in for decent, honest Americans? Are they here for a free lunch?
I know I am just asking for this thread to denigrate into another round of Mexican bashing, but I will ask for intelligent replies anyway.

why on earth do you think we have bitter hatred or animosity towards illegal aliens for simply wanting our laws upheld and enforced?

[Kathianne]

I apologize in advance for asking you to put aside your bitter hatred and animosity toward illegal aliens and instead speculate as to why they want to come to this country in the first place. Do they just have it in for decent, honest Americans? Are they here for a free lunch?
I know I am just asking for this thread to denigrate into another round of Mexican bashing, but I will ask for intelligent replies anyway.

I don't know Gabby, what is your take? Why would they if we are the hatemongers you wish to find? Could it possibly be that they see the possibilities to be had in US that elude you? Problem is, they need to do it the correct way, which is not waving at the flag at the Rio Grande.

[JohnDoe]

why on earth do you think we have bitter hatred or animosity towards illegal aliens for simply wanting our laws upheld and enforced?

Maybe because you don't "go after", with the same umph or animosity, the people that are actually causing them to come here, the Americans that ARE BREAKING our own laws, and hiring them.

Because you are not trying to enforce the laws on the books that are not being followed by our own citizens and acting as if the illegals are the only bad guys, when the true bad guys are the Americans that hire them.

If there were no jobs for them to have at their leisure, then they would NOT come here....end of story. Don't ya think?

And they might actually stay in their own country and make something of it, through rebellion if necessary.

jd

[Trigg]

Maybe because you don't "go after", with the same umph or animosity, the people that are actually causing them to come here, the Americans that ARE BREAKING our own laws, and hiring them.

Because that are not being followed by our own citizens and acting as if the illegals are the only bad guys, when the true bad guys are the Americans that hire them.

If there were no jobs for them to have at their leisure, then they would NOT come here....end of story. Don't ya think?

And they might actually stay in their own country and make something of it, through rebellion if necessary.

jd


This is BS, in plenty of other threads people have said that the employers need to be punished. If there were no jobs, and no one was hiring, the illegals would stop coming. That is why the Swift plant and others who knowingly hire these people need to get a heafty fine and possibly even start loosing their business license.

People in these "sanctuary cities" need to show their displeasure by voting.

http://www.ojjpac.org/sanctuary.asp

[Immanuel]

So you are saying that Illegal aliens who hold jobs do not have to pay the same withholdings that everyone else does?
How does that happen?

There are times when they don't have to pay taxes. Some work under the table being paid cash for services rendered and never have to declare a dime of revenue received. Note there are American Citizens that do this as well.

I think most Mexican people who come here come because they have better opportunities here than they do in Mexico. I do not believe that the majority who do come, come in order to "retake Mexican territory" as some like to portray today. That may be the rallying cry when they get here, but it isn't why they come in the first place.

We simply offer them better jobs than they can get at home.

Can't blame them for trying to improve their lives now can we.

One more thing... we need them. We hire them. If we continue to offer them better opportunity here they will keep coming. The only reason they are "illegal aliens" is because our government won't improve the immigration laws in order to stem the flood so to speak. Our government won't allow in enough of them to fill the jobs that we won't do. Plain and simple... it is market forces at work! We have the work and they have the labor willing to do it for the lowest price.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

This is BS, in plenty of other threads people have said that the employers need to be punished. If there were no jobs, and no one was hiring, the illegals would stop coming. That is why the Swift plant and others who knowingly hire these people need to get a heafty fine and possibly even start loosing their business license.

People in these "sanctuary cities" need to show their displeasure by voting.

http://www.ojjpac.org/sanctuary.asp

If the businesses were stop from hiring illegals and punished heavily for breaking the law, there would be no illegal immigration problem imo.

And I am very concerned with the open borders situation and do not like in the least, and the 20 million illegal aliens that are here in this country because of it.

I just see the employers that hire them ILLEGALLY as the root cause. Hope that explains my position on it.

jd

[Abbey Marie]

No need to parse out blame. A fence and an fully agent-protected border would not give anyone, illegal or employer, the opportunity to break the law.

[avatar4321]

If the businesses were stop from hiring illegals and punished heavily for breaking the law, there would be no illegal immigration problem imo.

And I am very concerned with the open borders situation and do not like in the least, and the 20 million illegal aliens that are here in this country because of it.

I just see the employers that hire them ILLEGALLY as the root cause. Hope that explains my position on it.

jd

I disagree. I am not saying that they shouldnt be punished. We've clearly demonstrated the need to punish them as well (Where you got the idea that anyone was giving them a break is beyond me).

But do you honestly think they will stop coming simply if we stop employers from highering them? I dont. Because we still have a system set up where poor people can mooch off the taxes of our nation with no responsibility for themselves needed.

[Trigg]

If the businesses were stop from hiring illegals and punished heavily for breaking the law, there would be no illegal immigration problem imo.

And I am very concerned with the open borders situation and do not like in the least, and the 20 million illegal aliens that are here in this country because of it.

I just see the employers that hire them ILLEGALLY as the root cause. Hope that explains my position on it.

jd

We agree completely!! We need to build a fence, prosecute employers of illegals and continue with deportations.

I hope your not planning on voting democrate since I have yet to hear how they are planning to solve the problem, other than amnesty that is.

[JohnDoe]

I disagree. I am not saying that they shouldnt be punished. We've clearly demonstrated the need to punish them as well (Where you got the idea that anyone was giving them a break is beyond me).

But do you honestly think they will stop coming simply if we stop employers from highering them? I dont. Because we still have a system set up where poor people can mooch off the taxes of our nation with no responsibility for themselves needed.
yes, I do not believe they would come here in droves without the jobs being readily available to them.

[Immanuel]

We agree completely!! We need to build a fence, prosecute employers of illegals and continue with deportations.

I hope your not planning on voting democrate since I have yet to hear how they are planning to solve the problem, other than amnesty that is.

I'm not voting Democratic but let me ask. What grand scheme do the Republicans have to solve the problem? :dunno:

Immie

[Dilloduck]

No, I do not believe they would come here in droves without the jobs being readily available to them.

they already are

[JohnDoe]

they already are They already are what, dillo?

They already are here and are all here without jobs???

jd

[Immanuel]

they already are

But the jobs are readily available to them.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

But the jobs are readily available to them.

Immie

They just do anything to get here--they don't worry about a particular job being here--they can live with each other til they find one. NP

[JohnDoe]

They just do anything to get here--they don't worry about a particular job being here--they can live with each other til they find one. NP
If the illegals did not have jobs readily available to them, I still believe they would not come here. Even in the scenario that you mentioned about living with family or friends till they found a job....those people that give them safe havens that are probably illegals themselves, would not have jobs or a place over their heads if they too did not have jobs readily available to pay for their food or roof over their heads.

It stems from the employer that hires them illegally and I will stick to what I believe on this....
--------------------------------------------------

And on one of Immie's comments above, regarding employers needing cheap labor and American's not willing to do the jobs they do, I can see this perhaps in the Migrant worker situation, where they pick crops, and there are laws ALREADY in place that allows these Farm owners to import temporary workers to pick the crops, they JUST DON'T FOLLOW the law and the paperwork it requires for them to get their temporary workers imo. From what I understand they only have to show the gvt that Americans will not take the jobs of picking crops and then they can import the temp worker to do such.

But the landscaper's jobs and the construction workers jobs etc, there are plenty of Americans that will and have done these jobs.

jd

[Immanuel]

They just do anything to get here--they don't worry about a particular job being here--they can live with each other til they find one. NP

True... because they know when they get here there will be someone willing to pay them for their services. Like I said, it is market forces in action.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

And yes Immie, this might mean that immigration laws need to be tweaked, allowing more laborers in LEGALLY.... but they should be from many impoverished countries instead of just one, Mexico, giving diversity to the workforce of immigrants....a melting pot of immigrants imo.

And yes, the employers that need workers might need to raise their payscale in order to get American citizens to do the Jobs they need done. That happens every day of the week, it is a product of supply and demand....fewer doctors and nurses to fill the jobs opened the higher the pay to attract them, why should farmers or construction businesses or landscape businesses be any different?

[Gaffer]

I agree with JD. Crack down on the employers and the job market for illegals will dry up. They will then go back where they came from.

[avatar4321]

I agree with JD. Crack down on the employers and the job market for illegals will dry up. They will then go back where they came from.

I still disagree. as long as we have entitlement programs we will see a draw.

[JohnDoe]

I still disagree. as long as we have entitlement programs we will see a draw.

Please explain what entitlement programs illegals will come here to use, and can use as illegals by law and maybe you would or could have a point to be made?

As far as I know....

Welfare-no
Emergency hospital care-yes
Social Security-no
Medicare-no
Food Stamps-no
Schooling for their children-yes
Schip-no

The only 2 things that I can think of that are entitlements that Illegals would still get are emergency hospital care through the Emergency Rooms if they have a medical emergency and schooling for their kids which can certainly be changed via a simple law imo.

And neither of these 2 things would pay for a roof over their head, or clothes on their back, or shoes on their feet, or food on their table, so I disagree with you.

I will stick with cracking down on the people that hire illegals, and the illegals will dry up.

This will be the biggest and most important thing that we can do as a country to near eliminate our huge illegal immigrant problem.

And I also FIRMLY believe that if the Mexicans were forced to stay in their own country and not have the job opportunities that they have here in the USA, that they would rebel against the poor economic policies that their government has gotten away with for decades.

Their own government policies is the true problem of why illegal immigrants have come here, and their own government has basically told them to come to America illegally and given them routes and maps to do it so that they don't have the rebellion of there citizens that is surely needed.

The billions of dollar fence, won't stop them from coming here.....it might curb them until they find a way around it or under it or over it or some kind of loophole, but they will still try to come here if jobs are plentiful for them and employers continue to hire them illegally because the jobs and money will be worth the risk for them, so to better their own family's lives....but if there is no "betterment" here with jobs, they will not take the risk to come here in my opinion.

jd

[Yurt]

JD:

Do you support stealing from your neighbor if you are destitute? If you are destitute, do your support breaking the law?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

:)

[JohnDoe]

JD:

Do you support stealing from your neighbor if you are destitute? If you are destitute, do your support breaking the law?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

:)

Simple-no.

I don't, but yurt, what the heck does that have to do with the tea in China?

I believe the illegals broke the laws of the usa, but I also KNOW that the usa citizens that hired these people, broke our laws, their own laws of their own country and are screwing the rest of us citizens bigtime by doing so and ARE the main problem of why we are in this hell of a mess we are in.

And I believe that punishing them where it hurts, in their pocket or with their freedom, will STOP the illegals from coming here and will MAKE the ones that are here leave.

What do you think will TRULY help the situation yurt? What do YOU think is feasible and cost efficient, that can be done that WILL TRULY help us?

Do you really believe we can round up 20 million illegals and deport them?

Do you really believe if there are jobs from here to kingdom come available for them to get that a very costly fence will stop them from crossing that border in one way or another to get to that good paying job?

We need to stop being silly here and do what is NECESSARY to stop this influx and that is to crack down on the employers that hire them, BIGTIME.

This will stop other employers from hiring illegals in the future and this will make these jobless people start to leave, and go home. And the remainder that we can catch, should be deported.

And Mexico needs to feel the heat from these mexicans that have been dealt a dirty rotten economic policy of their gvt that has put them in the position they have been put in....basically starving to death in their own country.

jd

[82Marine89]

I apologize in advance for asking you to put aside your bitter hatred and animosity toward illegal aliens and instead speculate as to why they want to come to this country in the first place. Do they just have it in for decent, honest Americans? Are they here for a free lunch?
I know I am just asking for this thread to denigrate into another round of Mexican bashing, but I will ask for intelligent replies anyway.

Why do you make it about Mexicans? There are illegal aliens from many countries here. Why don't you ask about the diseases they bring with them? Why don't you talk about how they depress wages? Why don't you talk about how they displace American workers? It doesn't matter WHY they come here, it's the FACT that they don't follow the proper legal channels to get here.

[Yurt]

Simple-no.

I don't, but yurt,
jd

Thank you.

[Yurt]

Thanks for the simple "no" above :D



JohnDoe;160701]Simple-no.

I don't, but yurt, what the heck does that have to do with the tea in China?

What don't you understand about simple yes or no? :)




I believe the illegals broke the laws of the usa, but I also KNOW that the usa citizens that hired these people, broke our laws, their own laws of their own country and are screwing the rest of us citizens bigtime by doing so and ARE the main problem of why we are in this hell of a mess we are in.

So should we stop drug dealers or drug users? Do you think one is more responsible than the other? And, I will let you slide on the simple yes or no...

:cool:



And I believe that punishing them where it hurts, in their pocket or with their freedom, will STOP the illegals from coming here and will MAKE the ones that are here leave.

Same was said about drug dealers. Dealers get a heavier sentence than users. How is the war on drugs?


What do you think will TRULY help the situation yurt? What do YOU think is feasible and cost efficient, that can be done that WILL TRULY help us?

Enforce the law. Answer me this, how many illegals does mexico have? Riddle me this, what country on earth has the most illegals?

Why? Because others are very strict on immigration. They actually enforce laws.



Do you really believe we can round up 20 million illegals and deport them?

Well, if the current sentence on drug dealers is not working, why not make it harsher? Do you like drug dealers? What sentence and what remedy would you want for people that offer and supply an illegal activity?


Do you really believe if there are jobs from here to kingdom come available for them to get that a very costly fence will stop them from crossing that border in one way or another to get to that good paying job?

Why aren't you protesting in mexico?



We need to stop being silly here

speak for yourself JD, there is no "we" ..... yet.

[Pale Rider]

Do you really believe we can round up 20 million illegals and deport them?

People laughed when we said we were going to put a man on the moon too, but we did it.

I think it's just as fair to ask, "why CAN'T we deport twenty million illegal aliens?"

[JohnDoe]

Thanks for the simple "no" above :D

Your welcome! :D



What don't you understand about simple yes or no? :)

I;m a girl, we never can stick with a simple yes or no, there is always some hyminng and hawing! ;)





So should we stop drug dealers or drug users? Do you think one is more responsible than the other? And, I will let you slide on the simple yes or no...

:cool:

I think the whole war on drugs is a damn mess, but that is another topic of discussion. :)


Same was said about drug dealers. Dealers get a heavier sentence than users. How is the war on drugs?

ok, so you want to discuss it. I don't think the dealers are any worse than the users. and the war on drugs is a manufactured war that shouldn't be there in the first place....but pretty shitty, for your answer.

Enforce the law. Answer me this, how many illegals does mexico have? Riddle me this, what country on earth has the most illegals?

Why? Because others are very strict on immigration. They actually enforce laws.

I agree and disagree, our laws are not being enforced, this is trueand it pisses me off to no end. However, the reasons we have more illegal immigrants than other countries is because we are THE LAND OF OPPORTUNITY, and everyone of those illegals know it and KNOW they can get a job here, (from some greedy american that is willing to break the law so to make more money for themselves and to put the burden of schooling their illegal worker's kids and taking care of their illegal worker's healthcare needs.....on to the tax payers) a better paying job than in their own country in the very least.

There is no reason for Americans to flood Mexico, there is no "decent work" there for us to get and no reason to move to a place that is worse.


Well, if the current sentence on drug dealers is not working, why not make it harsher? Do you like drug dealers? What sentence and what remedy would you want for people that offer and supply an illegal activity?

Damn! hahahahaha, back to drug dealers again huh? what the heck? is this a trick question? I answered this above....or I danced around it and said it should be in another thread.... :D

Why aren't you protesting in mexico?

Protesting what in Mexico? Protesting against their shitty government and shitty economic policies that have screwed their own citizens? I think this was another trick question?????!!!!!!




speak for yourself JD, there is no "we" ..... yet.

Well, "you" then, if "we" doesn't cut it yurt. :laugh2:

I am not for amnesty, and never have been. I am not defending the illegal in any way.

I am trying to discuss a feasible solution that will actually WORK THIS TIME and it is going to take more than just building a fence imo.

It will entail enforcing and strengthening our laws, which include BOTH the illegals crossing our porous borders and the emplyers that hire them, not one over the other, but a combination of the two, along with securing our borders to the best that we can, and changing our immigration laws to allow more legal immigrants in to this country.

I think that if employers did not hire illegals, that they WOULD NOT COME HERE, because there would be no reason for them to come here....and many that are here and find themselves without a job, will just simply leave, and then those that don't will be fewer, for us to be able to manage the deportation of....

I don't think our government wants illegal immigration to stop, thus I don't think they will fund the deportation or the securing of our borders, no matter what we as citizens want, and this has been evident over the last 3-4 decades.

and even if we have a candidate that says they want to end illegal immigration, I will take the stance that they are lying.

jd

[JohnDoe]

People laughed when we said we were going to put a man on the moon too, but we did it.

I think it's just as fair to ask, "why CAN'T we deport twenty million illegal aliens?"
Because our various governments, from federal to state to local, do NOT want to deport them....and it won't happen if there is not the mindset of all three to do such. I am talking reality here, not my personal wish.
jd

[Immanuel]

The simple fact of the matter here is that they come because our economy demands it. We are not going to do anything to stop them from coming because we use their services. WE USE THEM. Everyone complains about them, but everyone in some way, shape or form benefits from them.

True, we could harshen the penalty for both the employer and the alien, but we don't want to. The fact is that employers use the cheap labor and by using it this keeps our costs down. They don't take jobs that we want. Most of our kids today would not pick vegetables in a field all day long if you held a gun to their heads and the American "poor" wouldn't either. Why should they when Uncle Sam feeds them and keeps them supplied with beer?

A citizen of the U.S. can get a job if he/she wants to. Those who don't get one in a reasonable amount of time are lazy, expect too much or mentally ill.

Immie

[Trigg]

The simple fact of the matter here is that they come because our economy demands it. We are not going to do anything to stop them from coming because we use their services.

Welll I am going to vote for the person who vows to build a fence and prosecute the people hiring illegals. Romney, is doing just that.

Cheap labor for fruits and veggies is that same as cotton. They developed a machine as soon as the cheap labor disappeared. Prices may go up for a time, but I doubt they'd stay there.

[Pale Rider]

The simple fact of the matter here is that they come because our economy demands it. We are not going to do anything to stop them from coming because we use their services. WE USE THEM. Everyone complains about them, but everyone in some way, shape or form benefits from them.
No... wrong, wrong, wrong. There's no facts in that matter at all. The illegals take jobs from "legal" American citizens AND drive down wages. They don't pay taxes and are bleeding the border states dry. What ever it is you "think" you are benefiting from, they more than DOUBLE the cost to LEGAL tax paying Americans. The ONLY people that are benefiting from the illegal aliens are the businesses that hire them knowing they're illegal, and then pay them substandard wages because of it, but then instead of passing the savings on to the consumer, they blow it on lobbyists in Washington to beg lawmakesrs to please DON'T enforce EXISTING IMMIGRATION LAWS, or NOT TO MAKE ANY NEW ONES!


True, we could harshen the penalty for both the employer and the alien, but we don't want to.
Who in the FUCK is this "WE??!!" You got a TURD in your pocket? Because the VAST MAJORITY of Americans want the government and law enforcement to DO something! The VAST majority!!! GET THAT STRAIGHT!!! And more and more states are getting sick and tired of the inaction of Washington and passing their own laws and cracking down on employers and illegals. ILLEGAL ALIENS COST US MONEY!


The fact is that employers use the cheap labor and by using it this keeps our costs down.
No, wrong, wrong, wrong. Again, there is NO "fact is" here EITHER! The ONLY people that benefit from cheap illegal labor is big business, and they're not passing jack SHIT along to you or I. They're putting and profit into either lobbying crocked Washington lawmakers to turn a blind eye, or putting it in their POCKET! WE DON'T SEE SHIT!


They don't take jobs that we want. Most of our kids today would not pick vegetables in a field all day long if you held a gun to their heads and the American "poor" wouldn't either.
You're just WRONG with EVERYTHING you've spewed here. You sound just like a full blown member of LA RAZA or MECHA. Now the TRUTH is, LESS THAN 5% OF ALL ILLEGALS ALIENS IN THIS COUNTRY PICK ANYTHING. Most illegal aliens in this country are in higher end jobs that LEGAL Americans DO WANT, and they're stealing those jobs such as construction and factory work and driving the wages down.


Why should they when Uncle Sam feeds them and keeps them supplied with beer?
Gee... where was I when I was a kid and Uncle Sam was feeding kids and keeping them supplied with beer? What a STUPID fucking thing to say. Simply fucking MORONIC.


A citizen of the U.S. can get a job if he/she wants to. Those who don't get one in a reasonable amount of time are lazy, expect too much or mentally ill.
You've got such a great opinion of Americans. Maybe you should move to Mexico where your PERFECT RACE lives, then you can be happy.

[Immanuel]

No... wrong, wrong, wrong. There's no facts in that matter at all. The illegals take jobs from "legal" American citizens AND drive down wages. They don't pay taxes and are bleeding the border states dry. What ever it is you "think" you are benefiting from, they more than DOUBLE the cost to LEGAL tax paying Americans. The ONLY people that are benefiting from the illegal aliens are the businesses that hire them knowing they're illegal, and then pay them substandard wages because of it, but then instead of passing the savings on to the consumer, they blow it on lobbyists in Washington to beg lawmakesrs to please DON'T enforce EXISTING IMMIGRATION LAWS, or NOT TO MAKE ANY NEW ONES!


Who in the FUCK is this "WE??!!" You got a TURD in your pocket? Because the VAST MAJORITY of Americans want the government and law enforcement to DO something! The VAST majority!!! GET THAT STRAIGHT!!! And more and more states are getting sick and tired of the inaction of Washington and passing their own laws and cracking down on employers and illegals. ILLEGAL ALIENS COST US MONEY!


No, wrong, wrong, wrong. Again, there is NO "fact is" here EITHER! The ONLY people that benefit from cheap illegal labor is big business, and they're not passing jack SHIT along to you or I. They're putting and profit into either lobbying crocked Washington lawmakers to turn a blind eye, or putting it in their POCKET! WE DON'T SEE SHIT!


You're just WRONG with EVERYTHING you've spewed here. You sound just like a full blown member of LA RAZA or MECHA. Now the TRUTH is, LESS THAN 5% OF ALL ILLEGALS ALIENS IN THIS COUNTRY PICK ANYTHING. Most illegal aliens in this country are in higher end jobs that LEGAL Americans DO WANT, and they're stealing those jobs such as construction and factory work and driving the wages down.


Gee... where was I when I was a kid and Uncle Sam was feeding kids and keeping them supplied with beer? What a STUPID fucking thing to say. Simply fucking MORONIC.


You've got such a great opinion of Americans. Maybe you should move to Mexico where your PERFECT RACE lives, then you can be happy.

The only thing I have to say about all this BS is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!

As for your comment about beer, I was speaking about the 50 year old rednecks who won't get off their lazy butts and go to work because Uncle Sam provides that welfare check every month. It has nothing to do with teens.

Your "vast majority of Americans" is nothing more than a few cowboys who run down to Arizona waving their guns and crying, "look at all these evil Mexicans coming across our border taking our jobs", who wouldn't do the jobs these people are coming here for in the first place. Most of those cowboys probably hire the "illegals" to clean their homes too.

And I have nothing, absolutely nothing, against Americans. I'm simply telling you the truth. These illegal aliens are not taking any jobs that you would work anyway. They take the jobs that we wouldn't touch with a 40' pole.

Immie

[Pale Rider]

The only thing I have to say about all this BS is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!

Your "vast majority of Americans" is nothing more than a few cowboys who run down to Arizona waving their guns and crying, "look at all these evil Mexicans coming across our border taking our jobs", who wouldn't do the jobs these people are coming here for in the first place. Most of those cowboys probably hire the "illegals" to clean their homes too.

Immie

You're full of SHIT clear to your fucking eye brows mutton head. READ IT AND WEEP YOU JACKASS FUCKING LIBERAL MORON PINHEAD....



INVASION USA

Zogby poll: Americans fed up with illegal aliens

Majority against Bush plan for workers, 81% think local police should help feds

------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A new opinion poll by Zogby International indicates Americans are hardly pleased with the Bush administration on the subject of illegal immigration.

The poll, cited on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" program yesterday, noted a huge majority – 81 percent – believes local and state police should help federal authorities enforce laws against illegal immigration. Only 14 percent disagreed.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44154

[Pale Rider]

INVASION USA


Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily
Death toll in 2006 far overshadows total
U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, Afghanistan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: November 28, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Joseph Farah
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com


WASHINGTON – While the military "quagmire" in Iraq was said to tip the scales of power in the U.S. midterm elections, most Americans have no idea more of their fellow citizens – men, women and children – were murdered this year by illegal aliens than the combined death toll of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan since those military campaigns began.
Though no federal statistics are kept on murders or any other crimes committed by illegal aliens, a number of groups have produced estimates based on data collected from prisons, news reports and independent research.

Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That's 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.

Total U.S. troop deaths in Iraq as of last week were reported at 2,863. Total U.S. troop deaths in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan during the five years of the Afghan campaign are currently at 289, according to the Department of Defense.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103

[Pale Rider]

Jobs Americans Won't Do?

The politicians keep repeating the same lie... Illegals are only doing the jobs American's won't do. See the article below to see the truth.

JOBS WHO WON'T DO?
New York Post : December 22 , 2006

http://www.numbersusa.com/news? ID=7032

One of the hoariest cliches in the immigration debate is that illegal aliens in the workforce "do the jobs Americans won't do" - hence the need for a general amnesty.

Outgoing Mexican President Vicente Fox said it several times. President Bush has referred to "good, honorable, hardworking people here doing jobs Americans won't do" as he tried to drum up support for his "path to citizenship" immigration reform.

But is the conventional wisdom true?

Last week, as part of a broader identity-theft and illegal-document probe, immigration and customs agents raided Swift & Co. meat-processing plants in six states - rounding up hundreds of illegal workers. Yet the plants managed to stay open - albeit with serious manpower shortages.

What happened next? The Rocky Mountain News reports, "The line of applicants hoping to fill jobs vacated by undocumented workers taken away by immigration agents at the [Greeley, Colo.] plant . . . was out the door."

To be sure, this is but a single anecdote, but there are others - such as the 25,000 who showed up earlier this year to apply for work at Wal-Mart when the retail giant opened a store just outside the Chicago city limits.

Even in this good economy, many Americans are working hard to find jobs.

Yes, most poor immigrants - legal or otherwise - will work hard when they arrive in this country.

But it is a canard - almost a libel on the industriousness of American workers - to blithely say that a liberal immigration policy has little impact on employment or wages because the jobs being taken are ones "Americans won't do."

The sooner that all politicians recognize that fact, the more honest the public debate will become - and the faster across-the-board immigration reform can become law.

http://www.mmlv.us/jobswontdo.html

[Trigg]

As for your comment about beer, I was speaking about the 50 year old rednecks who won't get off their lazy butts and go to work because Uncle Sam provides that welfare check every month.

Your "vast majority of Americans" is nothing more than a few cowboys who run down to Arizona waving their guns and crying, "look at all these evil Mexicans coming across our border taking our jobs", who wouldn't do the jobs these people are coming here for in the first place. Most of those cowboys probably hire the "illegals" to clean their homes too.

And I have nothing, absolutely nothing, against Americans. I'm simply telling you the truth. These illegal aliens are not taking any jobs that you would work anyway. They take the jobs that we wouldn't touch with a 40' pole.

Immie

Why is it that everytime there is a discussion about illegals the southerners get pulled into the argument??? There has been article after article about the illegals being on welfair, collecting money from the state for their American born children. Also articles stating most illegals work in construction and factories, these are good jobs that Americans want.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/means.html


Despite welfare reform and a strong economy in the latter half of the 1990s, the figure shows that immigrants in general and Mexican households in particular use every major means-tested program at higher rates than natives.


While most natives are more educated, and don’t face competition from less-educated immigrants, detailed analysis of 473 separate occupations shows that 17 million less-educated adult natives work in occupations with a high concentrations of immigrants.


• Some of the occupations most impacted by immigration include maids, construction laborers, dishwashers, janitors, painters, cabbies, grounds keepers, and meat/poultry workers. The overwhelming majority of workers in these occupations are native-born.

Let me tell you, Americans do want these jobs and they are working these jobs EVERY DAY!!

[Immanuel]

You're full of SHIT clear to your fucking eye brows mutton head. READ IT AND WEEP YOU JACKASS FUCKING LIBERAL MORON PINHEAD....

Oh and I am supposed to take a poll to be the truth?

The Alan Guttmacher Institute can take a poll in the middle of an Operation Rescue convention and make it sound like America is 100% Pro-abortion.

And, I'm no liberal... sounds to me that you are the liberal. Liberals do not accept differences of opinion. Liberals are intolerant jerks and you are fitting the bill very well here. You must be a card carrying memer of the ACLU! :laugh2:

Get a clue PR. I'm no liberal... I simply believe that America needs and wants the people that come across the border and only those politicians who think this is an important issue and it is not. Oh, I suppose there are some racists who have a major problem with this too. Mexicans are such terrible people you know!

Immie

[Pale Rider]

Oh and I am supposed to take a poll to be the truth?

The Alan Guttmacher Institute can take a poll in the middle of an Operation Rescue convention and make it sound like America is 100% Pro-abortion.

And, I'm no liberal... sounds to me that you are the liberal. Liberals do not accept differences of opinion. Liberals are intolerant jerks and you are fitting the bill very well here. You must be a card carrying memer of the ACLU! :laugh2:

Get a clue PR. I'm no liberal... I simply believe that America needs and wants the people that come across the border and only those politicians who think this is an important issue and it is not. Oh, I suppose there are some racists who have a major problem with this too. Mexicans are such terrible people you know!

Immie

I don't care what you call yourself, liberal, conservative or otherwise, but it's damn evident you ARE a LYING SONS A BITCH!!!

I post FACTS... you post some pinheaded personal opinion dribble with NOTHING to back it up.



Illegal Aliens and EMTALA
NewsWithViews.com, March 23, 2005

Free medical care has degraded and closed some of America’s finest emergency medical facilities and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospital are closing their doors forever. Under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985 (EMTALA), any patient requesting emergency care must be screened and treated until stabilized for discharge or transfer, whether or not insured or “documented” (i.e., legally present in the United States). For example, a woman in labor must remain to deliver her child. Babies born to illegal aliens are called “Anchor Babies” for once they are born, like anchors dropped to keep boats safely in harbor, they pull their illegal alien parents and siblings into lucrative residency. The babies instantly qualify as citizens for welfare benefits, resulting in skyrocketing Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income and Disability Income. Cities such as Los Angeles with large illegal alien populations, high crime, and powerful immigrant gangs are losing their hospitals to the ravages of unreimbursed care under EMTALA. In Los Angeles, 95% of outstanding homicide warrants are for illegal aliens, likewise for 66% of fugitive felony warrants.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

L.A. Emergency Rooms Full of Illegal Immigrants
Fox News, March 18, 2005

Los Angeles County’s emergency rooms are overburdened by the uninsured and overwhelmed by illegal immigration. Sixty percent of the county's uninsured patients are not U.S. citizens, and more than half are here illegally. With about 2 million undocumented aliens in Los Angeles County alone, patients in the County’s overcrowded emergency rooms can wait days for a hospital bed for necessary surgeries. In 2004, Los Angeles County spent $340 million to treat the uninsured – roughly $1,000 for every taxpayer – while illegal immigrants receive medical treatment for free.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Border States Grapple With Alien Criminals
Fox News, March 17, 2005

Many police officials are fed up with the number of illegal aliens populating American prisons, many of them incarcerated for violent crimes such as murder, rape and robbery. Criminal aliens, who by law should be deported, are instead incarcerated in the U.S. Because of federal bureaucracy and an overburdened system, only the most dangerous felons are actually sent home. Statistics tell the story: About 60 percent of deportation orders are ignored. In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding homicide warrants and 60 percent of outstanding felony warrants are for illegal aliens. American taxpayers are paying for the crimes of the 8,000 convicted aliens not yet caught and the incarceration costs of those who have been, estimated to add up to more than $1 billion a year — in just the states that border Mexico.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Open%20Borders/go_back.htm

[Trigg]

I simply believe that America needs and wants the people that come across the border and only those politicians who think this is an important issue and it is not. Oh, I suppose there are some racists who have a major problem with this too. Mexicans are such terrible people you know!

Immie

IF only the politicians are complaining, why did the mayor of NY back down on drivers license for illegals? Why are state after state passing laws punishing businesses who hire illegals? PEOPLE are behind these laws, PEOPLE who are fed up with paying higher hospital and school bills for people who are here illegally.

We do not need people sneaking into this country, using our benefits at a higher rate than natives, and using our hospitals and not paying the bills. These people are costing you money and you don't even seem to care.

[Immanuel]

Why is it that everytime there is a discussion about illegals the southerners get pulled into the argument??? There has been article after article about the illegals being on welfair, collecting money from the state for their American born children. Also articles stating most illegals work in construction and factories, these are good jobs that Americans want.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/means.html

Where did I say anything at all about Southerners? The cowboys I referred to are not necessarily Southern.

As for the Mexican "contractors", I'm sure there are some illegals who come here and work for the rich Americans that will hire people without contractor's licenses for cheap labor. In the same way that hotel chains and Walmart hire cheap labor to do their janitorial jobs. MOST Americans won't do those jobs! As for PR's article about people lined up at Walmart's doors for those jobs, I'm sorry, but I would like to see how many actually took the menial jobs that were offered. The same thing goes for that packing plant.

Employers are hiring illegal aliens because of the lower costs associated with doing so. Americans are not willing to change things. Sure, we bitch and moan about the anomaly of the Mexican on OUR welfare and that the others are "taking our jobs". Really? If they were taking our jobs, then we would be willing to work for the wages that the market will bare and few of us are willling to do so.


Let me tell you, Americans do want these jobs and they are working these jobs EVERY DAY!!

Despite PR's liberal rants, I don't believe this BS. Americans are not going to pick vegetables all day long. We are not willing to do it. We see ourselves as better than that.

Immie

[Immanuel]

I don't care what you call yourself, liberal, conservative or otherwise, but it's damn evident you ARE a LYING SONS A BITCH!!!

I post FACTS... you post some pinheaded personal opinion dribble with NOTHING to back it up.

I don't have to back it up. It is my opinion. The OP asked for our opinions. I didn't say I was right, but I don't believe for one half second that your bitching and moaning is ANYTHING SHORT OF FALSE OUTRAGE.

Calm down and grow up... liberal.

Immie

[Pale Rider]

I don't have to back it up. It is my opinion. The OP asked for our opinions. I didn't say I was right, but I don't believe for one half second that your bitching and moaning is ANYTHING SHORT OF FALSE OUTRAGE.


Immie

That's right, it's "ONLY YOUR OPINION," not "fact of the matter is," as you were trying to pass it off. You got caught lying.

Now either talk straight or shut the fuck up. No one needs a bleeding heart whiny little faggot liberal like you here just spewing lies and bull shit for the sake of spewing lies and bull shit.

I do NOT tolerate liars on this board. If I catch you lying, I'll call you on it, and I caught you lying. Deal with it, or move on.

This is just one topic that can rile me up in a heart beat, especially if you don't know what the hell you're talking about, and just spewing liberal trash.

[Trigg]

Where did I say anything at all about Southerners? The cowboys I referred to are not necessarily Southern.

As for the Mexican "contractors", I'm sure there are some illegals who come here and work for the rich Americans that will hire people without contractor's licenses for cheap labor. In the same way that hotel chains and Walmart hire cheap labor to do their janitorial jobs. MOST Americans won't do those jobs! As for PR's article about people lined up at Walmart's doors for those jobs, I'm sorry, but I would like to see how many actually took the menial jobs that were offered. The same thing goes for that packing plant.

Employers are hiring illegal aliens because of the lower costs associated with doing so. Americans are not willing to change things. Sure, we bitch and moan about the anomaly of the Mexican on OUR welfare and that the others are "taking our jobs". Really? If they were taking our jobs, then we would be willing to work for the wages that the market will bare and few of us are willling to do so.



Despite PR's liberal rants, I don't believe this BS. Americans are not going to pick vegetables all day long. We are not willing to do it. We see ourselves as better than that.

Immie


The point he is making, if you read it, is illegals for the most part are not picking veggies all day, they're working in factories and construction. These are two very well paying fields, trust me I have family working in both. You are very capable of supporting your family in these two positions.

The employers are hiring illegals at a lower rate, something they are not able to do with legal Americans. They have to pay at least minimum and they don't want to.

This argument is used all the time by OCA. The dems want a "path to citizenship", do you know what will happen then? The "new Americans" will DEMAND minimum wage....and they'll get it.... What to do???? Do you support "slave labor", because it seems like that is what you are advocating here.

I live in an area with a very low percentage of illegals. Whites and blacks are working as janitors, construction, maids.....they are working these jobs because they make a good living doing it. That's the difference, there are not illegals willing to do it for $2 a day.

We need to prosecute the employers who are using these people.

[Immanuel]

IF only the politicians are complaining, why did the mayor of NY back down on drivers license for illegals? Why are state after state passing laws punishing businesses who hire illegals? PEOPLE are behind these laws, PEOPLE who are fed up with paying higher hospital and school bills for people who are here illegally.

We do not need people sneaking into this country, using our benefits at a higher rate than natives, and using our hospitals and not paying the bills. These people are costing you money and you don't even seem to care.

Why?

Because the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

It is NOT the vast majority of Americans who are worried about this issue. Sure, when Zogby asks, what do you think about the illegal aliens crisis?, Americans are going to say things like "they are stealing my jobs" or "they all come here for the Welfare Checks". Then we have PR's proof that Americans hate Mexicans. That squeaky wheel has riled up the little guy to hate Mexicans. In the same way that the media convinced America that the life of a fetus is not worth a dime, they have convinced Americans that all illegal aliens are stealing American jobs.

PR has taken the medias bait hook, line and sinker and anyone who disagrees with the media is a liberal. Well, as I said, PR is acting like the intolerant liberal here, not me. So, what, I disagree with you guys; therefore, I am a F'ing liberal and a liar. Haha, well, I know which of the two of us are liberals and I'm not worried about it.

It is the judgment that Trinity was talking about in another thread. People make those judgments without knowing jackshit about the real issue.

I don't like the idea of illegal aliens coming here and collecting welfare either. I wouldn't like it if an illegal alien were taking a job I wanted either. The point is that we Americans have gotten soft and won't do the things that illegals will work their asses off to do.

Immie

[Immanuel]

That's right, it's "ONLY YOUR OPINION," not "fact of the matter is," as you were trying to pass it off. You got caught lying.

Now either talk straight or shut the fuck up. No one needs a bleeding heart whiny little faggot liberal like you here just spewing lies and bull shit for the sake of spewing lies and bull shit.

I do NOT tolerate liars on this board. If I catch you lying, I'll call you on it, and I caught you lying. Deal with it, or move on.

That was no lie there you whiny assed liberal.

I may have typed something that was a little bit strong and I'll agree that it was incorrect in how I stated it, but no lie.

Grow up you whiny assed intolerant liberal!

Quit being such a whiny piece of crap.

Immie

[Trigg]

See there are AMERICANS doing these jobs. 76% of farm workers and 86% of construction workers are AMERICANS


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/immigrant.day/index.html

Undocumented workers make up 24 percent of farm workers and hold 14 percent of construction jobs, the study found.

[Immanuel]

The point he is making, if you read it, is illegals for the most part are not picking veggies all day, they're working in factories and construction. These are two very well paying fields, trust me I have family working in both. You are very capable of supporting your family in these two positions.

The employers are hiring illegals at a lower rate, something they are not able to do with legal Americans. They have to pay at least minimum and they don't want to.

This argument is used all the time by OCA. The dems want a "path to citizenship", do you know what will happen then? The "new Americans" will DEMAND minimum wage....and they'll get it.... What to do???? Do you support "slave labor", because it seems like that is what you are advocating here.

I live in an area with a very low percentage of illegals. Whites and blacks are working as janitors, construction, maids.....they are working these jobs because they make a good living doing it. That's the difference, there are not illegals willing to do it for $2 a day.

We need to prosecute the employers who are using these people.

Trigg,

No where did I say that I thought it was right for illegals to come to our country and work at jobs for lower than what we are willing to work for. I said, THAT I BELIEVE, Americans allow them to and are unwilling to change anything.

For instance, let's look at the maid service in most hotel chains. Do you see Americans working these jobs? I can't remember the last time I went to a hotel and found a maid that spoke English. Those would be the perfect jobs for our young kids to work, but they won't do it. Our kids won't work those jobs, not for anything and neither will we.

If PR wasn't being such an ass, I would ask him, if he would like to pay $125 a night to stay at Motel 6 the next time he goes away.

I honestly do not think that the majority of Americans are really as worked up about this as the media wants us all to think.

Immie

[Immanuel]

See there are AMERICANS doing these jobs. 76% of farm workers and 86% of construction workers are AMERICANS


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/immigrant.day/index.html

Undocumented workers make up 24 percent of farm workers and hold 14 percent of construction jobs, the study found.

That is all well and good Trigg.

What does that prove?

Waht about the other 24%? Do they mingle with the rest of Americans in their jobs ie 24% of American Food Suppliers (a fictiticous company) staff is illegal or do they all work for some no-name grower who won't pay wages that are sufficient for us while AFS pays decent wages? What should we do with the no-name grower?

I do not advocate amnesty for illegals. I do not support Welfare for Illegals. I do not support driver's licenses for illegals and I do not support jobs for illegals. I'm not the liberal that PR is making me out to be.

I simply believe that we as Americans are USING illegals for our benefits and then whining about the problems they bring with them. We use them in much the same way a man uses a prostitute. He has his pleasure with her then casts her off and tomorrow decries the indecency of prostitution.

That is my opinion and nothing more!

Immie

[Trigg]

Trigg,

No where did I say that I thought it was right for illegals to come to our country and work at jobs for lower than what we are willing to work for. I said, THAT I BELIEVE, Americans allow them to and are unwilling to change anything.

For instance, let's look at the maid service in most hotel chains. Do you see Americans working these jobs? I can't remember the last time I went to a hotel and found a maid that spoke English. Those would be the perfect jobs for our young kids to work, but they won't do it. Our kids won't work those jobs, not for anything and neither will we.

If PR wasn't being such an ass, I would ask him, if he would like to pay $125 a night to stay at Motel 6 the next time he goes away.

I honestly do not think that the majority of Americans are really as worked up about this as the media wants us all to think.

Immie


Americans are changing things and want changes. That is why states are passing strict laws regarding hiring illegals. PEOPLE are voting these politicians into office across the country.

I don't know where you live. I live in the midwest and have family in the west. These are areas with a low number of illegals. At the hospital I work ALL of the people working housekeeping and janitorial jobs are Americans and they speak English. Teenagers work at fastfood and wal-mart type jobs.

The article I posted says 76% of farm work and 86% of construction jobs are filled by Americans. That does not sound like jobs "Americans won't touch with a 10 foot pole".

[JohnDoe]

Immie,

As with any job in the free market, if the demand for workers is greater than the supply of workers that are willing to do the job for the amount of money that is being offered by the employer, the employer needs to raise the amount of money that is needed to hire workers.

With the illegal immigrants flooding in to take these jobs, the employers are "skirting" the capitalistic system and not allowing market forces to work in their natural manner.

Thus, as Pale has stated, lowering the wage structure of Americans, holding the wages down of full blooded...American citizens that would take these jobs, if the money was appropriate for the job being asked to be done.

It IS taking jobs from Americans. Might I remind you to look at the unemployment rate of Black Americans in this country....who do work a great deal of the migrant worker jobs in the south already...so they are NOT jobs that Americans won't do.

And as far as the other once good paying American jobs such as Contruction workers and meat cutters or butchers, and landscapers, these are all jobs that Americans would do.... They do them up here, in my state.....we don't have a kazillion illegal immigrants doing those jobs, we have American citizens doing those jobs up here!

But guess what? They have to pay a little bit more.... and so what if they do? They are not going out of business by upping their pay scale to get Americans, just spending less of their profits on lobbying the congress to ignore the illegals.

And as I have also mentioned, the farmers HAVE THE ABILITY to bring in migrant workers from other countries temporaily and LEGALLY....through temporary work visas.... They only have to show some proof that they could not get Americans to do the job.

jd

[Trigg]

That is all well and good Trigg.

What does that prove?



It proves that you are wrong when you say Americans don't want these jobs.

You say Americans are to lazy to work farm and construction, well 76% already are.

[Immanuel]

Americans are changing things and want changes. That is why states are passing strict laws regarding hiring illegals. PEOPLE are voting these politicians into office across the country.

I don't know where you live. I live in the midwest and have family in the west. These are areas with a low number of illegals. At the hospital I work ALL of the people working housekeeping and janitorial jobs are Americans and they speak English. Teenagers work at fastfood and wal-mart type jobs.

The article I posted says 76% of farm work and 86% of construction jobs are filled by Americans. That does not sound like jobs "Americans won't touch with a 10 foot pole".

Like I said, look at the employers that these illegals are working for.

And let's look at the so-called tougher laws that are being developed. Will they do any good? Are they any different than drug laws?

Again, I am no advocate for illegal aliens. Personally, I blame the employers for the issue you raise. The employers (say Walmart for instance who has been busted for using them) are hiring illegals at lower wages to save money. If we were concerned about illegals then we as Americans would not shop at Walmart, right? But, there is a Walmart near my home. I drive by it almost daily. Do you think it's parking lot is ever empty? Heck no! Quite the opposite.

How about the meat packing company in PR's article? Did it go out of business because of this issue? I doubt it.

We use illegals. Despite our "rage" at them for coming here.

Immie

[Pale Rider]

No where did I say that I thought it was right for illegals to come to our country and work at jobs for lower than what we are willing to work for. I said, THAT I BELIEVE, Americans allow them to and are unwilling to change anything.

For instance, let's look at the maid service in most hotel chains. Do you see Americans working these jobs? I can't remember the last time I went to a hotel and found a maid that spoke English. Those would be the perfect jobs for our young kids to work, but they won't do it. Our kids won't work those jobs, not for anything and neither will we.

If PR wasn't being such an ass, I would ask him, if he would like to pay $125 a night to stay at Motel 6 the next time he goes away.

I honestly do not think that the majority of Americans are really as worked up about this as the media wants us all to think.

You can just rile me up REAL QUICK talking about this when you start repeating stale old lies such as what you're saying above. It's not true. We could get rid of every single illegal alien in the country RIGHT NOW, and what we would SAVE, would FAR out weigh ANYTHING illegals might have contributed, in the form of savings on medical care, taxes, wear and tear on infrastructure, law enforcement, wages would go back up, emergeny rooms, welfare, entitlements, sactuary cities would get a break, less disease, nothing would have to be printed in spanish, on and on and on. WE DON'T NEED THEM HERE. So think or state any different is a lie.

You need to go back and read every one of the articles I posted in defense of my statements before you continue, because I have proven I'm right, and you're wrong.

[Immanuel]

It proves that you are wrong when you say Americans don't want these jobs.

You say Americans are to lazy to work farm and construction, well 76% already are.

Again, at what wages and with what employers?

Immie

[Immanuel]

"The study found?" Aaaahh... WHAT STUDY IS THAT? Don't make me laugh.

LETS HAVE A LINK TO THAT "STUDY."

CNN is THE most biased, and known for crocked practices and leaning left in all of media. You will HAVE to do BETTER than "STUDY SAYS" quoted from CNN.

Excuse me... but Trigg's on your side.

Please, I wish you would read what I wrote. I'm not an advocate for illegals. You seem to have ignored that fact. I simply believe we as Americans use them to our benefit.

Immie

[Trigg]

Again, at what wages and with what employers?

Immie

I have no way of knowing what wage or employers and you are well aware of that.

I am simply saying your wrong when you insist that Americans are not willing to do these types of jobs.

As for you Americans who use these illegals. I wouldn't think they are not the ones crying for stricter laws since they are benefiting from the "slave labor".

The people wanting the laws are everyday people already working in construction who want some protection from employers willing to low ball the illegals and fire the honest American worker.

The people wanted the laws are the hospital workers in those hospitals in Arizona that are closing because of the high cost of taking care of illegals who do not pay their bills.

[Pale Rider]

It is NOT the vast majority of Americans who are worried about this issue.
YES... IT IS!

And don't state different unless you can PROVE it, but I already know you can't. You're just LYING, and I've already proven it.

[Pale Rider]

Excuse me... but Trigg's on your side.

Please, I wish you would read what I wrote. I'm not an advocate for illegals. You seem to have ignored that fact. I simply believe we as Americans use them to our benefit.

Immie

My mistake, I got that mixed up.

And I'm not saying you're ARE "on the side of the illegals," but, what you ARE is VERY MISINFORMED!

[Immanuel]

I have no way of knowing what wage or employers and you are well aware of that.

I am simply saying your wrong when you insist that Americans are not willing to do these types of jobs.

As for you Americans who use these illegals. I wouldn't think they are not the ones crying for stricter laws since they are benefiting from the "slave labor".

The people wanting the laws are everyday people already working in construction who want some protection from employers willing to low ball the illegals and fire the honest American worker.



I didn't expect you to answer it Trigg or to have an answer. Just posed it to provoke thought.

I believe all Americans use illegals not just the ones that benefit from the "slave labor".


The people wanting the laws are everyday people already working in construction who want some protection from employers willing to low ball the illegals and fire the honest American worker.

And these are not the VAST MAJORITY of Americans that PR insinuated they were. Perhaps, I should call him a liar? No, because he didn't lie. He was making a statement that he felt was right and using hyperbole.

I am not concerned about being right in the issue of whether or not Americans will take those jobs. It is besides the point. The point is that Americans use the "near free" labor to our benefit and then cast the worker aside. I don't believe most of us are willing to work those jobs regardless of what the media tells us. Sorry, if you are in the media... but I just don't trust them.

I may be wrong about my whole beliefs here. I don't care... it won't be the first time and it won't be the last. I simply believe that Americans have gotten spoiled and lazy while Mexicans are willing to come across the border and work in jobs that we won't work.

As I have said before, it is the forces of the capitalistic society at work and that is plain and simply the truth. I support capitalism. I don't see that as a bad thing. When we Americans get hungry we'll do the work, but until that time comes we will let the Mexicans do it.

The liberal welfare policies of people like PR :poke: are the reason behind our unwillingness to hike up our boots and get out there and work for a living. :D

Immie

[Pale Rider]

And these are not the VAST MAJORITY of Americans that PR insinuated they were. Immie

What is wrong with you? Really.... what in the hell is wrong with you? Are you acting ignorant just to keep this idiotic line of yours going or what? You're really starting to look stupid here....


INVASION USA

Zogby poll: Americans fed up with illegal aliens

Majority against Bush plan for workers, 81% think local police should help feds

------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A new opinion poll by Zogby International indicates Americans are hardly pleased with the Bush administration on the subject of illegal immigration.

The poll, cited on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" program yesterday, noted a huge majority – 81 percent – believes local and state police should help federal authorities enforce laws against illegal immigration. Only 14 percent disagreed.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44154

[Immanuel]

My mistake, I got that mixed up.

And I'm not saying you're ARE "on the side of the illegals," but, what you ARE is VERY MISINFORMED!

:lol:

If I believed everything I read on the internet, like some people, I might have to agree with you.


What is wrong with you? Really.... what in the hell is wrong with you? Are you acting ignorant just to keep this idiotic line of yours going or what? You're really starting to look stupid here....

And the same thing goes for believing everything I read in polls.

Once again, for the simple minded, when asked how do you feel about illegal aliens? Americans will go with the "flow" and spout what the squeaky wheel (the media) tell them they should think. And again, a good pollster can take a poll in the middle of an Operation Rescue convention and make you think Americans are 100% pro-abortion.

Immie

[manu1959]

Excuse me... but Trigg's on your side.

Please, I wish you would read what I wrote. I'm not an advocate for illegals. You seem to have ignored that fact. I simply believe we as Americans use them to our benefit.
Immie


and they use america....each side benefits.....and both sides are wrong and breaking the law....

[Trigg]

I am not concerned about being right in the issue of whether or not Americans will take those jobs. It is besides the point. The point is that Americans use the "near free" labor to our benefit and then cast the worker aside. I don't believe most of us are willing to work those jobs regardless of what the media tells us. Sorry, if you are in the media... but I just don't trust them.

I may be wrong about my whole beliefs here. I don't care... it won't be the first time and it won't be the last. I simply believe that Americans have gotten spoiled and lazy while Mexicans are willing to come across the border and work in jobs that we won't work.

As I have said before, it is the forces of the capitalistic society at work and that is plain and simply the truth. I support capitalism. I don't see that as a bad thing. When we Americans get hungry we'll do the work, but until that time comes we will let the Mexicans do it.

The liberal welfare policies of people like PR :poke: are the reason behind our unwillingness to hike up our boots and get out there and work for a living. :D

Immie

You stated 3 times in this post that illigals are doing the jobs Americans aren't willing to do.

I posted an article from CNN, a very liberal source IMO, that states that Americans, in fact, are doing these jobs every day.

My brother-in-law works in heating and AC

Father-in-law works at a trucking company

My husbands uncles work in construction and quite a few cousins work in factories.

Like I said before in areas that do not have a high illegal populations these labor intensive jobs are being held by Americans. Which proves that if employers in areas with many illegals were forced to only higher legal workers their positions would be filled.

[manu1959]

You stated 3 times in this post that illigals are doing the jobs Americans aren't willing to do.

I posted an article from CNN, a very liberal source IMO, that states that Americans, in fact, are doing these jobs every day.

My brother-in-law works in heating and AC

Father-in-law works at a trucking company

My husbands uncles work in construction and quite a few cousins work in factories.

Like I said before in areas that do not have a high illegal populations these labor intensive jobs are being held by Americans. Which proves that if employers in areas with many illegals were forced to only higher legal workers their positions would be filled.


very true....

the issue is immigration felons will do "the work" cheaper ......

[Immanuel]

and they use america....each side benefits.....and both sides are wrong and breaking the law....

Yes, you are right.

Immie

[Immanuel]

You stated 3 times in this post that illigals are doing the jobs Americans aren't willing to do.

I posted an article from CNN, a very liberal source IMO, that states that Americans, in fact, are doing these jobs every day.

My brother-in-law works in heating and AC

Father-in-law works at a trucking company

My husbands uncles work in construction and quite a few cousins work in factories.

Like I said before in areas that do not have a high illegal populations these labor intensive jobs are being held by Americans. Which proves that if employers in areas with many illegals were forced to only higher legal workers their positions would be filled.

Okay, but let me ask you this to also provoke your thought, not expecting an answer. What percentage of illegals are working these kinds of jobs? What percentage are working the menial jobs that no American would be caught dead working?

Immie

[manu1959]

Yes, you are right.

Immie

so you are left with....

enforce the law, arrest those breaking the law and prosecute them....

change the law.....

at the moment all we are doing is nothing....

[Pale Rider]

Immie is really off base on this entire subject.....



On March 9, 2007, Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) and Rep. Stephanie Herseth (D-SD) introduced H.R. 1430 -- The Security and Fairness Enhancement for America Act of 2007 – which, if enacted, would eliminate the visa lottery program. Currently, 44 Members of Congress co-sponsor this critical bill. The list is growing every day.

Unskilled Workers


The U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform recommended the elimination of the category for unskilled workers. The Commission noted, “Unless there is another compelling interest, such as in the entry of nuclear families and refugees, it is not in the national interest to admit unskilled workers. This is especially true when the U.S. economy is showing difficulty in absorbing disadvantaged workers and when efforts towards welfare reform indicate that many unskilled Americans will be entering the labor force.” The Commission continued, “We see little justification for admitting unskilled foreign workers into an economy that must find job opportunities for millions of unskilled U.S. workers.”

At a time when 14 million Americans are unable to find a full-time job (according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics) and the unemployment rate among the 12 million American adults who do not have a high school diploma is almost 9 percent (Bureau of Labor Statistics), the Commission recommendation of eliminating the unskilled workers category seems just as appropriate today as it did when the Commission first made the recommendation in 1996.

http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/overall.html

[Hagbard Celine]

It's actually sort of interesting what they do if you can get past the fact that they don't pay taxes. They band together, almost in a communal effort, kinda like college students do to share expenses. Large numbers of them share housing and transport to keep living costs down so that they can afford to send money abroad to their families. :dunno: Citizens could probably do very well with this strategy--atleast in banding their families together, instead of living separate and far away from each other.

[JohnDoe]

Okay, but let me ask you this to also provoke your thought, not expecting an answer. What percentage of illegals are working these kinds of jobs? What percentage are working the menial jobs that no American would be caught dead working?

Immielet legal market forces prevail....raise the wages untill you get enough legal workers to fill the jobs, and those jobs that are left empty....the employers can LEGALLY fill with immigrants....

but if they follow the LEGAL process for these immigrants, it would entail them to pay higher wages for even them, and defeat the purpose of hiring ILLEGAL immigrants, which is to supress the entire market's wages.....and to hold their workers in captivity of sorts, through the fear of them being turned in, or caught.

look at what REALLY is happening here!!!! slave labor. if you think the immigrant wouldn't want more than the menial amounts they are being paid and wouldn't like the opportunity to better their own wages instead of being afraid to ask for more with the threat of deportation hanging over their heads, (which would be allowed if they came here to work on a temporary visa), then i think you are sorely wrong immie.



jd

[Immanuel]

Immie is really off base on this entire subject.....

Well, at least you have calmed down. I may be off base, but I come here to form my opinions and learn where I am wrong. In this case, I have not yet been convinced.


The U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform recommended the elimination of the category for unskilled workers. The Commission noted, “Unless there is another compelling interest, such as in the entry of nuclear families and refugees, it is not in the national interest to admit unskilled workers. This is especially true when the U.S. economy is showing difficulty in absorbing disadvantaged workers and when efforts towards welfare reform indicate that many unskilled Americans will be entering the labor force.” The Commission continued, “We see little justification for admitting unskilled foreign workers into an economy that must find job opportunities for millions of unskilled U.S. workers.”

So what? Pschyobabble from a bunch of politicians with ulterior motives. Nothing they say holds a grain of salt with me any longer.


efforts towards welfare reform

Haha what kind of BS is this? That is like saying the Democrats honestly attempted to reform Social Security.

I have teenaged children and let me state this very clearly neither they nor any of their unskilled friends would even consider working in the fields of Florida, the rooms of a hotel as a maid or many other menial jobs that illegals take. And I can damn sure tell you that when I was unskilled, I wouldn't have either.


We see little justification for admitting unskilled foreign workers into an economy that must find job opportunities for millions of unskilled U.S. workers.

Yet, unskilled Americans want jobs that illegals can't have even Fast Food is better than working in the fields and I have yet to hear of Mickey D's being fined for hiring illegals.

Immie

[Immanuel]

so you are left with....

enforce the law, arrest those breaking the law and prosecute them....

change the law.....

at the moment all we are doing is nothing....

I agree. Well, there is something else you can do. You can do a combination of both. You can enforce the current laws and you can change them.

I think if America is in need of the work force then we should increase the number of temporary visas to allow more people in to do the work we won't do, but we should also prosecute the employers who deliberately break our laws and the aliens that cross illegally as well.

Unfortunately, the powers that be won't do this.

Immie

[theHawk]

I apologize in advance for asking you to put aside your bitter hatred and animosity toward illegal aliens and instead speculate as to why they want to come to this country in the first place. Do they just have it in for decent, honest Americans? Are they here for a free lunch?
I know I am just asking for this thread to denigrate into another round of Mexican bashing, but I will ask for intelligent replies anyway.

They are here because our liberal laws allow them to be. All they gotta do is come here and get a few dozen social security numbers and they'll be set. Our country has become a joke, and the Mexicans(for the most part) are getting the last laugh.

[Pale Rider]

Well, at least you have calmed down. I may be off base, but I come here to form my opinions and learn where I am wrong. In this case, I have not yet been convinced.

So what? Pschyobabble from a bunch of politicians with ulterior motives. Nothing they say holds a grain of salt with me any longer.

Yet, unskilled Americans want jobs that illegals can't have even Fast Food is better than working in the fields and I have yet to hear of Mickey D's being fined for hiring illegals.

Immie

You are free to think what you want. I've sufficiently showed you just how extremely wrong you are. I'm satisfied, and also newly educated as to how odd and off base your thought paterns can be, even when provided the truth.

[JohnDoe]

Well, at least you have calmed down. I may be off base, but I come here to form my opinions and learn where I am wrong. In this case, I have not yet been convinced.



So what? Pschyobabble from a bunch of politicians with ulterior motives. Nothing they say holds a grain of salt with me any longer.



Haha what kind of BS is this? That is like saying the Democrats honestly attempted to reform Social Security.

I have teenaged children and let me state this very clearly neither they nor any of their unskilled friends would even consider working in the fields of Florida, the rooms of a hotel as a maid or many other menial jobs that illegals take. And I can damn sure tell you that when I was unskilled, I wouldn't have either.



Yet, unskilled Americans want jobs that illegals can't have even Fast Food is better than working in the fields and I have yet to hear of Mickey D's being fined for hiring illegals.

Immie

then you and others like you, are parenting differently than when matt and i grew up!!! Most all of my girlfriends in high school worked the hotels in atlantic city and ocean city during the summer vacation period as chamber maids, and matthew got a job picking tobacco in his early teens of which they bussed him and other children up to massachusetts to do such!!!

oh, and the hotels up here pay $15 bucks an hour to be chamber maids during the summer!!!! and reopen every year, cuz even at those wages, they make a profit!!!

jd

[Pale Rider]

then you and others like you, are parenting differently than when matt and i grew up!!! Most all of my girlfriends in high school worked the hotels in atlantic city and ocean city during the summer vacation period as chamber maids, and matthew got a job picking tobacco in his early teens of which they bussed him and other children up to massachusetts to do such!!!

jd

I picked tobacco myself as a teen, on a farm of a classmate for $7 an hour. That was big money back then, but it was back breaking work. Bent over all day with a machete, pushing the plant over with one hand and chopping it off with the other. Every person in that tobacco field was a LEGAL AMERICAN. Imagine that.

[Immanuel]

You are free to think what you want. I've sufficiently showed you just how extremely wrong you are. I'm satisfied, and also newly educated as to how odd and off base your thought paterns can be, even when provided the truth.

Why?

Because I think the media lies to us?

Think what you want, I don't really care. I respect you and your thoughts on the issues. In this case, I think you are being mislead by the media in much the same way I was mislead by the Religious Right, GWB and the Neocons for years.

You have shown me that I am wrong? How so? By using the very media that tells us that John Kerry would be the perfect President? Bah!!!!!

Immie

[JohnDoe]

I picked tobacco myself as a teen, on a farm of a classmate for $7 an hour. That was big money back then, but it was back breaking work. Bent over all day with a machete, pushing the plant over with one hand and chopping it off with the other. Every person in that tobacco field was a LEGAL AMERICAN. Imagine that.


oh yah, my husband said it was absolutely back breaking!!!! and he's a pretty big guy, 6'3'', even as a child....he was pretty tall!!!

But, he came from very humble beginnings and he and his family needed the money, which was very good and way above minimum wage, at that time. Yes, all the tobacco pickers were American!

jd

[Immanuel]

I picked tobacco myself as a teen, on a farm of a classmate for $7 an hour. That was big money back then, but it was back breaking work. Bent over all day with a machete, pushing the plant over with one hand and chopping it off with the other. Every person in that tobacco field was a LEGAL AMERICAN. Imagine that.

And you are my age.

Would you do it today?

Would the kids of today do it? I don't think so. Americans have gone soft.

Immie

[Pale Rider]

Why?

Because I think the media lies to us?

Think what you want, I don't really care. I respect you and your thoughts on the issues. In this case, I think you are being mislead by the media in much the same way I was mislead by the Religious Right, GWB and the Neocons for years.

You have shown me that I am wrong? How so? By using the very media that tells us that John Kerry would be the perfect President? Bah!!!!!

Immie

You were the one that posted something by the "media" Immie, and then all it said was "the study." No link to anything that backs it up.

I on the other hand, posted facts and figures from actually polls and information gathering institutions. You... just... ignored them. That's fine if you want to go through life ingnoring the facts. Maybe it makes you feel better. I don't know. It baffles me.

[Pale Rider]

And you are my age.

Would you do it today?

Would the kids of today do it? I don't think so. Americans have gone soft.

Immie

I'm 52, and a disabled veteran. No, I wouldn't do it today. If I was seventeen again would I? You bet. I actually like doing a good hard days work. That's why most everything I've done in my life as far as work has been physical. I couldn't stand a sit on my ass all day desk job. Just not for me.

As far as the kids of today, yeah I think they're getting softer all the time, so the jury is out on that, even though I'd be willing to bet SOME would do it. But I also found an article about how automated the agriculture industry is becoming. Much of what need to be hand picked in the past now can be picked by machine, so the issue of illegal aliens keeping the price of your head of lettuce down is nothing more than an utter lie, and that goes for many other things as well.

Sorry I got so excited so fast, but I have very strong feelings on this subject, and I got a little carried away.

[Immanuel]

I'm 52, and a disabled veteran. No, I wouldn't do it today. If I was seventeen again would I? You bet. I actually like doing a good hard days work. That's why most everything I've done in my life as far as work has been physical. I couldn't stand a sit on my ass all day desk job. Just not for me.

As far as the kids of today, yeah I think they're getting softer all the time, so the jury is out on that, even though I'd be willing to bet SOME would do it. But I also found an article about how automated the agriculture industry is becoming. Much of what need to be hand picked in the past now can be picked by machine, so the issue of illegal aliens keeping the price of your head of lettuce down is nothing more than an utter lie, and that goes for many other things as well.

Sorry I got so excited so fast, but I have very strong feelings on this subject, and I got a little carried away.

:)

Apology accepted.

As for the desk job, are you judging me? ;) I'm one of the soft ones now. I am not disabled, but I can barely walk. I would not have done the back breaking labor that we are talking about here even as a kid. I worked, but if it came to that, I would have lived off my parents.

And absolutely, SOME of our kids would do the work. I don't think I said none of them would. Those that will do the work, can find the job... those that would prefer to live off the system might complain that the Mexicans are "taking our jobs" but they sure as hell are not going to go out and work to get those jobs.

Immie

[Pale Rider]

:)

Apology accepted.

As for the desk job, are you judging me? ;) I'm one of the soft ones now. I am not disabled, but I can barely walk. I would not have done the back breaking labor that we are talking about here even as a kid. I worked, but if it came to that, I would have lived off my parents.

And absolutely, SOME of our kids would do the work. I don't think I said none of them would. Those that will do the work, can find the job... those that would prefer to live off the system might complain that the Mexicans are "taking our jobs" but they sure as hell are not going to go out and work to get those jobs.

Immie

The bottom line is, we don't need 20 million illegal aliens here in this country. The facts show they cost us more than anything they may contribute. You can believe otherwise, that's your right. I think you're kidding yourself though, and I can't understand why you'd want to do that. No body here is with you.

[Immanuel]

The bottom line is, we don't need 20 million illegal aliens here in this country. The facts show they cost us more than anything they may contribute. You can believe otherwise, that's your right. I think you're kidding yourself though, and I can't understand why you'd want to do that. No body here is with you.

What I don't understand is why we make out the "illegal aliens" to be the bad guy here. Most are trying to do the best they can.

It is the employers and the American people that provide the incentive for them to come here yet all blame falls on the little guy that comes to our land and takes advantage of our wants.

Just because no one is with me isn't going to change my opinion. No one (well I am in the minority anyway) is with me about abortion either. Should I change my mind there?

Call me a cynic but I do not believe most of what the internet, politicians or the media tell me.

Immie

[Pale Rider]

oh yah, my husband said it was absolutely back breaking!!!! and he's a pretty big guy, 6'3'', even as a child....he was pretty tall!!!

But, he came from very humble beginnings and he and his family needed the money, which was very good and way above minimum wage, at that time. Yes, all the tobacco pickers were American!

jd

I didn't get an "allowance" from my parents. If I wanted money, I had to go out and earn it, and I did. I worked a lot as a kid, and I had a lot of toys, mini bikes, go karts, motorcycles and then cars. I know.... it's a lot different nowadays. Kids are fat and lazy, and I even read something yesterday about kids now having "soft bones," because they're so sedentary and don't exercise.

[Pale Rider]

What I don't understand is why we make out the "illegal aliens" to be the bad guy here. Most are trying to do the best they can.

It is the employers and the American people that provide the incentive for them to come here yet all blame falls on the little guy that comes to our land and takes advantage of our wants.

Just because no one is with me isn't going to change my opinion. No one (well I am in the minority anyway) is with me about abortion either. Should I change my mind there?

Call me a cynic but I do not believe most of what the internet, politicians or the media tell me.

Immie

When it comes to the illegal alien problem, there's plenty of blame to go around. It's not "just" the illegals fault, but, they have broken the law. THAT is why they're "the bad guy." They're criminals, period, and I don't believe America should be looking the other way just because some of them want to work. Because there's plenty of them that come up here for different reasons, like drug running, or gang banging, or running from the law in Mexico. We need to enforce our laws. We need to once and for all put an end to this. This is a real sore spot for many Americans, and on top of that, I think that once we put an end to all of this, even if what we do is deport the majority of illegals, not only the US, but even Mexico will be better off for it. I think that because if we send say ten million people back to Mexico that are uneducated and unemployed, then maybe, just MAYBE, the people of Mexico just might rise up and start demanding their OWN country clean up and drive out the corruption THERE. I like Mexico. It's a beautiful country. I've been there several times, even rode my Harley through there. The country has plenty of resources and possibilities to employ all their people. The just need to get rid of the crooks running the place. THAT is what we should be helping them do.

[Immanuel]

When it comes to the illegal alien problem, there's plenty of blame to go around. It's not "just" the illegals fault, but, they have broken the law. THAT is why they're "the bad guy." They're criminals, period, and I don't believe America should be looking the other way just because some of them want to work. Because there's plenty of them that come up here for different reasons, like drug running, or gang banging, or running from the law in Mexico. We need to enforce our laws. We need to once and for all put an end to this. This is a real sore spot for many Americans, and on top of that, I think that once we put an end to all of this, even if what we do is deport the majority of illegals, not only the US, but even Mexico will be better off for it. I think that because if we send say ten million people back to Mexico that are uneducated and unemployed, then maybe, just MAYBE, the people of Mexico just might rise up and start demanding their OWN country clean up and drive out the corruption THERE. I like Mexico. It's a beautiful country. I've been there several times, even rode my Harley through there. The country has plenty of resources and possibilities to employ all their people. The just need to get rid of the crooks running the place. THAT is what we should be helping them do.

I won't argue with any of that. I think we SHOULD enforce our laws. I do, however, believe that our legislatures have set the limit on immigration too low. I also believe that companies that hire illegals should be fined and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law just as I believe that when I speed, I too should be fined for breaking the law.

Do you always obey the law? With me the speeding laws are the easy ones to justify break... er, bending a little. ;) I'm guilty and also a lawbreaker. How 'bout you? Ever smoke dope? Ever speed? Ever illegally park in a handicapped parking place... er, I hope not, breaking that one is despicable. :D But, come on, I can't believe you are a saint and that you have never once broken the law.

As for corruption in Mexico, I agree but can you blame the "illegals" for wanting to get out of there? As for changing their government... all I can do is point towards Cuba and say, "Good luck".

Our laws should be enforced but they are not. When they are it is done selectively. Look at Martha Stewart. She was accused of insider trading and prosecuted for it... something that I would be willing to bet a thousand bucks on that the people who prosecuted her would have done themselves and probably have done. Don't forget Senator Edward Kennedy who was involved in a very suspicious death but was never even brought up on charges. OJ Simpson bought his freedom although I believe he's going down this time.

Drug laws? Who gets prosecuted more often for those crimes? The rich brat who uses daily or the poor black kid caught in the middle? Who does the time?

Prosecuting our laws is a very selective business.

Should we really prosecute the poor Mexican who "wandered" ;) across the border and found his dream job or should we prosecute the employer that found his dream employee and doesn't even have to pay taxes on that employee yet I am sure he finds a way to deduct the expense for those salaries on his tax return? My intuition tells me that it will be the wanderer that gets the shaft not the employer.

Immie

PS Whatever you do, don't let the media tell you that you are innocent until proven guilty. That is another lie.

[Pale Rider]

I do, however, believe that our legislatures have set the limit on immigration too low.
I couldn't disaree more...


100 Million More
Projecting the Impact of Immigration
On the U.S. Population, 2007 to 2060

August 2007

By Steven A. Camarota

Download the .pdf version


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This study uses Census Bureau data to project how different levels of immigration impact population size and the aging of American society. The findings show that the current level of net immigration (1.25 million a year) will add 105 million to the nation’s population by 2060. While immigration makes the population larger, it has a small effect on the aging of society.


Among the findings:

Currently, 1.6 million legal and illegal immigrants settle in the country each year; 350,000 immigrants leave each year, resulting in net immigration of 1.25 million.

If immigration continues at current levels, the nation’s population will increase from 301 million today to 468 million in 2060 — a 167 million (56 percent) increase. Immigrants plus their descendants will account for 105 million (63 percent) of the increase.

The total projected growth of 167 million is equal to the combined populations of Great Britain, France, and Spain. The 105 million from immigration by itself is equal to 13 additional New York Cities.

If the annual level of net immigration was reduced to 300,000, future immigration would add 25 million people to the population by 2060, 80 million fewer than the current level of immigration would add.

The above projection follows exactly the Census Bureau’s assumptions about future birth and death rates, including a decline in the birth rate for Hispanics, who comprise the largest share of immigrants.

Net immigration has been increasing for five decades; if immigration continues to increase, it will add more than the projected 105 million by 2060 that will be added if immigration levels stay the same.

While immigration has a very large impact on the size of the nation’s population, it has only a small effect on slowing the aging of American society.

At the current level of net immigration (1.25 million a year), 61 percent of the nation’s population will be of working age (15-66) in 2060, compared to 60 percent if net immigration were reduced to 300,000 a year.

If net immigration was doubled to 2.5 million a year it would raise the working-age share of the population by one additional percentage point, to 62 percent, by 2060. But at that level of immigration, the U.S. population would reach 573 million, double its size in the 2000 Census.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/back707.html


Should we really prosecute the poor Mexican who "wandered" ;) across the border and found his dream job or should we prosecute the employer that found his dream employee and doesn't even have to pay taxes on that employee yet I am sure he finds a way to deduct the expense for those salaries on his tax return?
Absolutely, uncategorically, YES. If I go down town and just happen to wander into a bank and find my dream of $50K or so in the cash drawer and just help myself to it, should poor me really be prosecuted?

[manu1959]

I agree. Well, there is something else you can do. You can do a combination of both. You can enforce the current laws and you can change them.

I think if America is in need of the work force then we should increase the number of temporary visas to allow more people in to do the work we won't do, but we should also prosecute the employers who deliberately break our laws and the aliens that cross illegally as well.

Unfortunately, the powers that be won't do this.

Immie

i think we should fire all the immigration felons and offer their job and a place to sleep to all those that are unemployed, homeless or on welfare a job and eliminate welfare and and all other entitlement programs....

[trobinett]

Direction has been lost.

First, and FORMOST, entering this country by running across the boarder, is FUCKING ILLEAGL, GOT IT?

EVERYTHING that comes afterwards matters little.

Deflection, and all those that promote it, are the real criminals here.

The little weasels, and all they bring with them, is easily dealt with. Its the "do goodies", the "crying hearts", the liberals that are willing to do ANYTHING to get elected to public office that are the REAL CRIMINALS.

Never loose direction, never take your eye off of those that would deceive you. Our country is at pearl, and until we recognize that, and start enforcing the laws that are ALREADY on the books, we are doomed with what we have right now, a country in decline, one without direction, and one who's quality of living is taking a real bad beating.

[Gaffer]

Let me add to this from my own experiences and personal observations.

Around my area there are certain parts of various towns that cater to the illegals. They rent houses and apartments in these areas usually low rent housing. One guy will rent the house and move in about 20 others. They share the place. They work different shifts to avoid everyone being in the house at one time. Some can be sleeping while the others are out working. This was all explained to me by a mexican kid working at a place I was working at. He explained there were only 8 sharing his place and they were all related. It was a two bedroom apartment.

Back in the 90's I use to do drywall finishing. Two or three of us would go to a house and in about 3 to five days we would have it finished depending on the size. And apartment complex would take about two weeks. Then came the mexicans. They began contracting with the drywall companies and builders. One would speak english and do all the deal making and supervise the others. There would be 10 to 15 of them. The quality of their work was not that good but they could do a lot of work in a short time., because of their numbers.

Now this under cut us in our work as these guys would work for the same or less than we were getting and be able to finish the job a lot faster. Their boss man would get the pay and pay his guys whatever they all agreed on. Based on how they all looked and how the boss man looked and dressed my guess is they didn't make much money but he did.

So this is capitalism at work. Except, they are undercutting our making a living by doing the job for less as the workers are way underpaid. It's a form of slave labor. And it takes away the jobs of Americans that want to do the job. This same senario has been played out in all areas of construction with the exception of plumbing and electrical which still require technical expertise.

In other areas illegals are brought in to work assembly lines. I know one place in particular, where they have three shifts working and the workers get $80 a day to do the work. Paid in cash when they leave. They have about 100 workers per shift. All are illegals.

These are all jobs Americans did and will do. They can't do the jobs because they demand a living wage. Or in some cases the employer doesn't want to bother with taxes and the usual regulations that come with running a business. In all cases there is one boss man that directs everything and handles the paying of the workers. These guys always have lots of money.

Want the illegals out? Shut down the businesses that employ them. Without the jobs most of them will go home. No deportation would be necessary. Then its just a matter of sealing the borders from criminals and terrorist coming in.

Why isn't this simple method being done? Because the democrats want the "immigrant" vote. They continually play to the poor and ignorant, and they need them desperately to get the majority vote. The republicans on the other hand are looking at the cheap labor. Businesses and corporations make an annual killing off the labor of illegals. It has nothing what so ever to do with farm labor. Migrant workers are, for the most part, here legally. They come on work visas to harvest the crops. It's been going on for a hundred years. It's the ones settling in the cities that are the problem.

[JohnDoe]

i think we should fire all the immigration felons and offer their job and a place to sleep to all those that are unemployed, homeless or on welfare a job and eliminate welfare and and all other entitlement programs....

Well, I have made my position on this clear earlier in the thread, but you need to be corrected on something.

Illegal immigration is NOT a felony and it is not even a misdemeanor in our criminal justice system, it is just a "violation" of immigration law....the weakest of criminal law that there is.....

at least that is my understanding of it.
jd

[Immanuel]

Absolutely, uncategorically, YES. If I go down town and just happen to wander into a bank and find my dream of $50K or so in the cash drawer and just help myself to it, should poor me really be prosecuted?

Yet, it seems to me that you completely excuse the criminals who hire these wanderers.

How about you? Should they prosecute you for smoking dope? Speeding? Or whatever crime you commit that you don't agree with?

Immie

[Immanuel]

i think we should fire all the immigration felons and offer their job and a place to sleep to all those that are unemployed, homeless or on welfare a job and eliminate welfare and and all other entitlement programs....

Oh that would go over well with the liberals.

I can hear them screaming now. "Can you believe those darned conservatives actually want to make single moms/dads work for a living rather than collect welfare!"

Immie

[manu1959]

Well, I have made my position on this clear earlier in the thread, but you need to be corrected on something.

Illegal immigration is NOT a felony and it is not even a misdemeanor in our criminal justice system, it is just a "violation" of immigration law....the weakest of criminal law that there is.....

at least that is my understanding of it.
jd

.....they are immigration "violators" and tax evaders ..... that makes them

immigration felons

[Immanuel]

Want the illegals out? Shut down the businesses that employ them. Without the jobs most of them will go home. No deportation would be necessary. Then its just a matter of sealing the borders from criminals and terrorist coming in.

I've got no problem with that. These are the people that are deliberately breaking the laws and for the most part getting away with it.

I simply don't find that the Mexicans who cross the border are the culprit in this issue. Yes, they are breaking the law our laws, but the ones that are actually the culprits are the American businesses that hire them. Basically, I would liken it to entrapment by the police. We entice them to come over here and break our laws then bust them for doing it.

That is how I see it.

Immie

[manu1959]

I've got no problem with that. These are the people that are deliberately breaking the laws and for the most part getting away with it.

I simply don't find that the Mexicans who cross the border are the culprit in this issue. Yes, they are breaking the law our laws, but the ones that are actually the culprits are the American businesses that hire them. Basically, I would liken it to entrapment by the police. We entice them to come over here and break our laws then bust them for doing it.

That is how I see it.

Immie

any business that knowingly hires illegals is violating US tax law and should be prosecuted......

[Immanuel]

any business that knowingly hires illegals is violating US tax law and should be prosecuted......

Isn't that what I said? :)

Immie

[82Marine89]

I've got no problem with that. These are the people that are deliberately breaking the laws and for the most part getting away with it.

I simply don't find that the Mexicans who cross the border are the culprit in this issue. Yes, they are breaking the law our laws, but the ones that are actually the culprits are the American businesses that hire them. Basically, I would liken it to entrapment by the police. We entice them to come over here and break our laws then bust them for doing it.

That is how I see it.

Immie

Entrapment? You've got to be shitting me. Here you have a group of people that are entering our country illegally. They claim they want to return this land to Mexico because it is rightly theirs. They hold protests in our major cities demanding that we build them schools, give them health insurance, speak their language, and treat them like citizens. That is flat wrong. Yes, they work, but what they pay in payroll taxes does not support the financial burden they place on American citizens.

I look at it this way, if you want all the Rights that are associated with being an American, then you follow our laws. You apply for entry into this great Nation. You don't break in. That is a crime.

[manu1959]

Isn't that what I said? :)

Immie

no you said they were running a sting to trick the innocent immigration felons into committing a crime to get a job.....:poke:

[Abbey Marie]

...
Basically, I would liken it to entrapment by the police. We entice them to come over here and break our laws then bust them for doing it.

That is how I see it.

Immie

Oh no! Have you been under Joe Steel's tutelage? This sounds just like his blaming the courts for the murder of that 2 year old girl. For the love of Pete, please put the blame on the perpetrator of the crime, where it belongs.

[Pale Rider]

Yet, it seems to me that you completely excuse the criminals who hire these wanderers.
No, no, no... don't get me wrong here. Any person or business that hires illegals should have their ass in a sling, big time.


How about you? Should they prosecute you for smoking dope? Speeding? Or whatever crime you commit that you don't agree with?

Immie
First of all, "I don't smoke dope, or anything else," OK! Second, not only should they, but they do. What in the world makes you think they don't?

[Pale Rider]

I simply don't find that the Mexicans who cross the border are the culprit in this issue. Yes, they are breaking the law our laws, but the ones that are actually the culprits are the American businesses that hire them. Basically, I would liken it to entrapment by the police. We entice them to come over here and break our laws then bust them for doing it.

That is how I see it.

Immie

Oddly enough, that's not far from the truth.

[JohnDoe]

Let me add to this from my own experiences and personal observations.

Around my area there are certain parts of various towns that cater to the illegals. They rent houses and apartments in these areas usually low rent housing. One guy will rent the house and move in about 20 others. They share the place. They work different shifts to avoid everyone being in the house at one time. Some can be sleeping while the others are out working. This was all explained to me by a mexican kid working at a place I was working at. He explained there were only 8 sharing his place and they were all related. It was a two bedroom apartment.

Back in the 90's I use to do drywall finishing. Two or three of us would go to a house and in about 3 to five days we would have it finished depending on the size. And apartment complex would take about two weeks. Then came the mexicans. They began contracting with the drywall companies and builders. One would speak english and do all the deal making and supervise the others. There would be 10 to 15 of them. The quality of their work was not that good but they could do a lot of work in a short time., because of their numbers.

Now this under cut us in our work as these guys would work for the same or less than we were getting and be able to finish the job a lot faster. Their boss man would get the pay and pay his guys whatever they all agreed on. Based on how they all looked and how the boss man looked and dressed my guess is they didn't make much money but he did.

So this is capitalism at work. Except, they are undercutting our making a living by doing the job for less as the workers are way underpaid. It's a form of slave labor. And it takes away the jobs of Americans that want to do the job. This same senario has been played out in all areas of construction with the exception of plumbing and electrical which still require technical expertise.

In other areas illegals are brought in to work assembly lines. I know one place in particular, where they have three shifts working and the workers get $80 a day to do the work. Paid in cash when they leave. They have about 100 workers per shift. All are illegals.

These are all jobs Americans did and will do. They can't do the jobs because they demand a living wage. Or in some cases the employer doesn't want to bother with taxes and the usual regulations that come with running a business. In all cases there is one boss man that directs everything and handles the paying of the workers. These guys always have lots of money.

Want the illegals out? Shut down the businesses that employ them. Without the jobs most of them will go home. No deportation would be necessary. Then its just a matter of sealing the borders from criminals and terrorist coming in.

Why isn't this simple method being done? Because the democrats want the "immigrant" vote. They continually play to the poor and ignorant, and they need them desperately to get the majority vote. The republicans on the other hand are looking at the cheap labor. Businesses and corporations make an annual killing off the labor of illegals. It has nothing what so ever to do with farm labor. Migrant workers are, for the most part, here legally. They come on work visas to harvest the crops. It's been going on for a hundred years. It's the ones settling in the cities that are the problem.

Wish I could hit you with another positive rep, but it says I have to spread some around....we are definately in sinc with this issue!

jd

[Immanuel]

No, no, no... don't get me wrong here. Any person or business that hires illegals should have their ass in a sling, big time.


First of all, "I don't smoke dope, or anything else," OK! Second, not only should they, but they do. What in the world makes you think they don't?

And this is where I am going with this... "He who is without sin, cast the first stone."

Immie

[Pale Rider]

And this is where I am going with this... "He who is without sin, cast the first stone."

Immie

And I'll just say, "if you break the law, you are a criminal, and deserve to pay the consequences."