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  1. #1
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    Default 121 Iraq, Afghan vets linked to murders

    What is happening to our servicemen when they return from combat? Are they not being prepared to re-integrate back into society?
    Sounds like a blatant indictment of our current military structure.

    The newspaper said it also logged 349 homicides involving all active-duty military personnel and new veterans in the six years since military action began in Afghanistan, and later Iraq. That represents an 89-percent increase over the previous six-year period, the newspaper said.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080113/...s_after_combat

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    Sounds like a blatant indictment of our current military structure.
    Care to elaborate?
    POLITICAL ACTIVISTS CREED
    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in people's minds" -Samuel Adams

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men
    stand ready to do violence on their behalf."~George Orwell

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    Sure. What are they teaching people?

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    Also that is 1.68 murders per month for veterans and 4.84 per month for the military as a whole. Not very big numbers when you look at the number of murders that occur on a daily basis in America. In Los Angeles alone there were 216 gang related murders in 2007. Down from 294 in 2006. How come you don't take an active interest in this? Why do you constantly attack the military? Why do you hate us?
    POLITICAL ACTIVISTS CREED
    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in people's minds" -Samuel Adams

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men
    stand ready to do violence on their behalf."~George Orwell

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    What is happening to our servicemen when they return from combat? Are they not being prepared to re-integrate back into society?
    Sounds like a blatant indictment of our current military structure.



    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080113/...s_after_combat
    What is happening to our society that they report one-sided junk like this, and then it gets repeated?

    How many total military personnel have been deployed to Afghanistan and/or Iraq since Sep 11, 2001? How many of that number actually saw combat, as compared to how many of the 121 actually saw combat?

    How many of the 121 vets committed premeditated 1st degree murder vs how many committed 2nd degree murder vs how many committed unintentional manslaughter; the last being included by the NY Times?

    When you figure THOSE numbers out, how does that percentage compare to the percentage for nonvets in the US?

    This is just another attempt by the NY Times to mislead.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    http://www.windsofchange.net/archive...s_it_again.php

    From the October 1, 2001 start of the Afghanistan war, that's about 26,000 troops/month. To date (Jan 2008) that would give about 1.99 million.

    That means that the NY Times 121 murders represent about a 7.08/100,000 rate.

    Now the numbers on deployed troops are probably high - fewer troops from 2001 - 2003; I'd love a better number if someone has it.

    But for initial purposes, let's call the rate 10/100,000, about 40% higher than the calculated one.


    Now, how does that compare with the population as a whole?

    Turning to the DoJ statistics, we see that the US offender rate for homicide in the 18 - 24 yo range is 26.5/100,000.For 25 - 34, it's 13.5/100,000.

    See the problem?

    Damn, is it that hard for reporters and their editors to provide a little bit of context so we can make sense of the anecdotes? It's not in Part 1 of the article. And I'll bet it won't be in the future articles, either.


    Because it's not part of the narrative of how our soldiers are either depraved or damaged.

    The NY Times Public Editor can be reached at public@nytimes.com.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    Sure. What are they teaching people?
    They teach people to break things and kill people.

    They teach them how to survive in insane environments.

    I'm not going to go over the numbers. Others have done an admirable job.

    The US Military takes the very best from society and teaches them discipline and ethics. They teach them how to apply the training under stress and do the right thing. Actually, the odds of a military person committing a major felony is less than society at large. So, among the things the military teaches is how to be a better citizen.

    After every war, there are those who are damaged from the exposure to the "loud noises". I would suggest you check the crime stats following other major wars prior to the 1980's before the reforms where we took the best of society.

    I think the question should be, "How can we teach the rest of society what the military is taught?"
    I'm Phil -- 40 something heterosexual white male, fairly self sufficient, great with my kids, wed 29 years to the same woman, and I firmly believe that ones actions have logical consequences. How much more out the box can you get nowadays? -- MSgt of Marines (ret)

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    So, to take Kathianne's post into context, our veterans are murdering at roughly half the rate of their non-veteran peers. What the hell is wrong with them?!?

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    Just proving a point, among other things.
    If I made the same post, except substituting New Orleans refugees or poor Mexicans into the equation instead of war vets, everyone would be agreeing and applauding at the same time. But stating that the returning veteran homicide rate is above normal is somehow construed as "hating on the military." How do you get that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    Just proving a point, among other things.
    If I made the same post, except substituting New Orleans refugees or poor Mexicans into the equation instead of war vets, everyone would be agreeing and applauding at the same time. But stating that the returning veteran homicide rate is above normal is somehow construed as "hating on the military." How do you get that?
    It's not above normal. It's below normal, by half.

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    How does an 89 percent increase over the last six years come out to be half below normal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    Just proving a point, among other things.
    If I made the same post, except substituting New Orleans refugees or poor Mexicans into the equation instead of war vets, everyone would be agreeing and applauding at the same time. But stating that the returning veteran homicide rate is above normal is somehow construed as "hating on the military." How do you get that?
    So I wasted my time explaining things to you? Hmmph. Be awhile before I make that mistake again.
    I'm Phil -- 40 something heterosexual white male, fairly self sufficient, great with my kids, wed 29 years to the same woman, and I firmly believe that ones actions have logical consequences. How much more out the box can you get nowadays? -- MSgt of Marines (ret)

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    The reporter should be fired, as should the editor. This is a flat-out hit job on the returning vets. There are true and accurate stories to be told about bad things happening to and with some of our returning vets. To pick one rather embarrassing example I think the media totally ignores the problem of rape and harassment of female troops by a FEW cretins in the military. Ditto for the lowering of standards for incoming Army personnel (and for that matter, sailors as well).

    Yet these folks just can't do honest reporting sometimes. Sometimes their hatred of Bush and the military just drives them batty and they lose all standards and skill, not to mention objectivity.

    Again, this is a big enough goof that some heads at the NYT should roll. There is absolutely no defending this shoddy nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    How does an 89 percent increase over the last six years come out to be half below normal?
    the normal rate for society as a whole is twice that of the most recent rate for the military......

    in other words the average american citizen is twice as likely to kill as a vet....

    therefore if everyone was required to join the military the murder rate could be cut in half....
    Last edited by manu1959; 01-13-2008 at 10:43 PM.

    "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."

    ~Albert Camus

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    Just proving a point, among other things.
    If I made the same post, except substituting New Orleans refugees or poor Mexicans into the equation instead of war vets, everyone would be agreeing and applauding at the same time. But stating that the returning veteran homicide rate is above normal is somehow construed as "hating on the military." How do you get that?

    You have done nothing to support your statement except post a one-sided, uncorroborated by actual data misleading NY Times article.

    Want to validate your argument? Go back to my previous post and provide the numbers requested.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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