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    Default Question for War Supporters

    What would a "victory" in Iraq look like?

    (Please note that I am not a liberal. I don't like Pelosi, Hillary, Obama and the gang. I have voted exclusively for Republicans all my life. But I am also not a "neocon" by any stretch - I prefer the Reagan right, the paleocons, the hard-core right, Pat Buchanan, etc. Just for the record so folks know where I'm coming from.)
    Last edited by Hugh Lincoln; 02-18-2007 at 09:28 AM.
    America: White people footing the bill for a party they're not allowed to attend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Lincoln View Post
    What would a "victory" in Iraq look like?

    (Please note that I am not a liberal. I don't like Pelosi, Hillary, Obama and the gang. I have voted exclusively for Republicans all my life. But I am also not a "neocon" by any stretch - I prefer the Reagan right, the paleocons, the hard-core right, Pat Buchanan, etc. Just for the record so folks know where I'm coming from.)
    I think a US victory in Iraq would be represented by a sovereign Iraq that setted its' internal differences wthout resorting to killing each other, saw the US as an ally and the expulsion of all foreign influences dedicated to keeping Iraq as a chaotic radical Islamic arena.

    What would a defeat look like ?

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    Fair enough answer... I just don't think that's much of a military goal or even a legitimate political one. How can soldiers settle the tribal differences? Soldiers kill people. The only solution there would be to kill all the Sunnis and just let the Shiites take over. But then... the Shiites still have radical Islamic tendencies.

    And I guess I don't know what a defeat would look like, since I think "victory" and "defeat" are the wrong terms here.

    Whole thing's a huge mess. Personal opinion is the military should be used to defend our territory where the defense requires securing land and driving out enemies. Not humanitarian missions, etc.
    America: White people footing the bill for a party they're not allowed to attend.

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    I don't know what "victory" in Iraq would look like. It'll probably be what we declare when we pull out though it wont look much like a victory. Hopefully the PR people can think of something good so we don't look to bad when the inevitable happens.

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    I think that victory in Iraq would look much like victory in Vietnam would have looked, had we - and the Vietnamese - not been rescued from that unthinkable fate by American liberals.

    The parallels evident in the two conflicts speak volumes about the American political scene of recent history. Democratization of the respective regions would prove (or, have proven) advantageous to us (and infinitely preferable to the enslaved residents of the regions). However, to think democratization of the regions is/was the sole aim of the conflicts is to overlook the context in which they're fought.

    Like Vietnam, Iraq is but a single, strategic battle in a far larger war - a war we must win. And, again, we find some of our most treacherous enemies on the home front - in the person of the American Left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Lincoln View Post
    Fair enough answer... I just don't think that's much of a military goal or even a legitimate political one. How can soldiers settle the tribal differences? Soldiers kill people. The only solution there would be to kill all the Sunnis and just let the Shiites take over. But then... the Shiites still have radical Islamic tendencies.

    And I guess I don't know what a defeat would look like, since I think "victory" and "defeat" are the wrong terms here.

    Whole thing's a huge mess. Personal opinion is the military should be used to defend our territory where the defense requires securing land and driving out enemies. Not humanitarian missions, etc.

    You're the one who came up the word ! Ya--soldiers kill people who are in the way of victory. The more they kill the better chance for victory (unless of course polticians snatch it away from them).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Lincoln View Post
    Whole thing's a huge mess. Personal opinion is the military should be used to defend our territory where the defense requires securing land and driving out enemies. Not humanitarian missions, etc.

    If we lose, Al Qaeda gets control of Iraq's resources. Winning in Iraq IS defending our borders.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    If we lose, Al Qaeda gets control of Iraq's resources. Winning in Iraq IS defending our borders.
    So how would you achieve this victory?

    I don't know about the al Qaeda connection. Saddam Hussein would have crushed al Quada without mercy... how was removing him from power a path to this?
    America: White people footing the bill for a party they're not allowed to attend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Lincoln View Post
    Fair enough answer... I just don't think that's much of a military goal or even a legitimate political one. How can soldiers settle the tribal differences? Soldiers kill people. The only solution there would be to kill all the Sunnis and just let the Shiites take over. But then... the Shiites still have radical Islamic tendencies.

    And I guess I don't know what a defeat would look like, since I think "victory" and "defeat" are the wrong terms here.

    Whole thing's a huge mess. Personal opinion is the military should be used to defend our territory where the defense requires securing land and driving out enemies. Not humanitarian missions, etc.
    You make it sound as if the only mission a solider has is to kill. You need to get a wider perspective on what soldiers do. Yes, they are trained to kill when NEEDED, however, their main mission is to provide a forum for freedom to flourish.

    The military is to defend our homeland and to protect national interests, both here and abroad. Those who think the military is to only be stationed within the US borders is shortsighted and dangerous.

    The US cannot be self-supporting in all areas. We need other countries for receiving our goods and for producing goods we need. Humanitarian efforts are ultimately in our best interests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Lincoln View Post
    Fair enough answer... I just don't think that's much of a military goal or even a legitimate political one. How can soldiers settle the tribal differences? Soldiers kill people. The only solution there would be to kill all the Sunnis and just let the Shiites take over. But then... the Shiites still have radical Islamic tendencies.
    This ISN'T a war of "kill them all, and let God sort it out", its a war about eliminating the Islamic radicals.

    War, however, IS about KILLING PEOPLE, always has been, always will be.

    I'm on board with the elimination of the radical Islamic players. It's what has to happen.

    And I guess I don't know what a defeat would look like, since I think "victory" and "defeat" are the wrong terms here.
    Well, YOU are the one that asked what VICTORY would look like. Defeat would look ugly, sorta like Bully.

    Whole thing's a huge mess. Personal opinion is the military should be used to defend our territory where the defense requires securing land and driving out enemies. Not humanitarian missions, etc.
    Sorry Hugh, this WOT isn't a humanitarian mission, its a mission of survival, OUR survival.
    If ya can't prove it, don't say it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trobinett View Post
    I'm on board with the elimination of the radical Islamic players. It's what has to happen.
    lol you think that'll fix the problem. Leaders just lead the people behind them. Everyone you kill there will be another to replace him. You can't beat an ideology like this with guns and bombs. It's a propaganda war, a war of hearts and minds, one we're loosing pretty badly right now IMO.

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    any idea how we won previous wars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalNation View Post
    lol you think that'll fix the problem. Leaders just lead the people behind them. Everyone you kill there will be another to replace him. You can't beat an ideology like this with guns and bombs. It's a propaganda war, a war of hearts and minds, one we're loosing pretty badly right now IMO.
    Yup - Just like Nazism and Communism right? There's NO WAY we could win against the Soviet Union's SUPERIOR NUMBERS!! we can't win!! Let's just cower to the bullies!

    You're weak. Ya know that? Weak.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalNation View Post
    lol you think that'll fix the problem. Leaders just lead the people behind them. Everyone you kill there will be another to replace him. You can't beat an ideology like this with guns and bombs. It's a propaganda war, a war of hearts and minds, one we're loosing pretty badly right now IMO.
    not if you kill them all......

    it is dificult to beat a propagand civil war waged by your own media.....

    "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."

    ~Albert Camus

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    Quote Originally Posted by manu1959 View Post
    it is dificult to beat a propagand civil war waged by your own media.....
    You mean like the one the Times did by letting Judy Miller post all the admin's propaganda in the run up to the Iraq war?

    Might be true.

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