Question for those who would retreat

[Dilloduck]

How do you think the region will look if America withdraws all it's troops and what will be the consequences for America ?

[manu1959]

How do you think the region will look if America withdraws all it's troops and what will be the consequences for America ?

it will look like iran......the consequenses will be that america will need to withdraw all its troops from around the world as we will need them

[SassyLady]

can't answer - wouldn't retreat. Use a new strategy, but no retreat.

[Dilloduck]

can't answer - wouldn't retreat. Use a new strategy, but no retreat.

Turkey might like a chunk of the north--guess the Kurds could kiss thier asses goodbye.

[SassyLady]

I'd rather fight the fight we are fighting now than to retreat/withdraw and have another power step in and gain a foothold (Iran) and then have to come back and deal with the new alliance that could be forged.

[Dilloduck]

I didnt think that the cut and runners could think this far ahead.

[SassyLady]

I didnt think that the cut and runners could think this far ahead.

They don't think..........OCA has a word for them. They are obstructionists!!! Don't ask them for solutions.....they can't rationally come up with any ........ their modus operandi is to just refute anything we come up with! Easier that way........oh, and refuting sources is their main game play.

[Dilloduck]

They don't think..........OCA has a word for them. They are obstructionists!!! Don't ask them for solutions.....they can't rationally come up with any ........ their modus operandi is to just refute anything we come up with! Easier that way........oh, and refuting sources is their main game play.

I think they want the US to fall back in with the rest of the world and act all "sophisticated". It's just plan rude to be #1. They have no concept of what that will do to life in America.

[SassyLady]

I think they want the US to fall back in with the rest of the world and act all "sophisticated". It's just plan rude to be #1. They have no concept of what that will do to life in America.

I think you hit the nail on the head. It's just not PC to be the most powerful nation on Earth!!! We should subjugate ourselves to the NWO. Ugh!!!

I know I must be going to hell.....my compassion just doesn't extend to every other human being in the world.

I'm not the type to turn my cheek.......if you slap me you better be ready to get smacked. And then you can decide if you want to turn the other cheek and be the peacknik.

[Gaffer]

If we leave:

iran will begin supplying the shites with weapons and manpower. Saudi arabia will begin suppying the sunni's with weapons.The whole region will erupt into a slaughter and the gulf will be unusable for shipping.All the countries in the region will become involved in the conflict which iran will eventually win. The areas will be divided up into sunni and shea regions with iran as the central point of power. Much like the old ottoman empire.

The kurds will be slaughtered and turkey pressed into the growing caliphate of iran. Oil prices will skyrocket. Southern europe will then be under immediate threat and well within range of missiles. Which could well be tipped with nukes withing a few years.

All muslims will then be called on for jihad throughout the world. Any that don't respond will be considered kaffer and will be killed like all the infidels.

That's what happens if we leave. Its all written down as a manifesto. Its posted below.




Expert provides Al-Qaeda's timeline
This should put a dent in the short-sighted assertions we get from the left that Islamic terrorism is all our fault.

Expert provides Al-Qaeda's timeline
Donna Jacobs, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Monday, September 18, 2006

In an article published in the current International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence, Carleton University security expert Martin Rudner presents an Islamic terrorist timeline for the next 20 years.

On al-Qaeda's conquest calendar, the beginning of "total war on non-believers" begins seven years from now. And it ends with Islamic victory in 2020.

Ask Mr. Rudner, director of Carleton's Canadian Centre of Intelligence and Security Studies, how he assesses this declared march to world domination.

"I take it very seriously," he says. "Obviously."

So, too, does Jordanian journalist Fouad Hussein, who publicized the timeline based on his talks and correspondence with al-Qaeda members. "Al-Qaeda makes no compromises," says Mr. Hussein. He published his findings in the book al-Zarqawi -- al-Qaida's Second Generation a year before Mr. al-Zarqawi's death in June in a U.S. air strike in Iraq.

Al-Qaeda's seven-stage plan:

Stage 1: Awakening. Strategic time line: Sept. 11, 2001. Tactical Objective: Provoke U.S. attack on Muslims, galvanize jihadism.

Stage 2: Opening Eyes. Time: 2003-2006. Objective: Force West on defensive.

Stage 3: Arising and Standing Up. Time: 2007-2010. Objective: Assault on Turkey and Israel.

Stage 4: Downfall of Apostate Muslim regimes. Time: 2010-2013. Objective: Saudi Arabia, Jordan, oil producers.

Stage 5: Declaration of Caliphate. Time: 2013-2016. Objective: Mobilization of Muslim forces.

Stage 6: Total Confrontation.

Time: 2013-2020. Tactic: Total war on non-believers by 1.5 billion Muslims.

Stage 7: Definite Victory. Time: 2020. Objective: A Muslim world.

In a video al-Qaeda released to celebrate the fifth anniversary of its 9/11 attacks, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's deputy, warned that al-Qaeda would attack Israel and the Gulf Arab states next.

Mr. Rudner notes that Stage 3 "explicitly" targets energy: "It tells us where they think they are.

"And, by the way," he adds, "they're on target."

Whether a literal or inspirational timeline, the jihadists see it as "a viable strategy to bring about their victory.

Mr. Rudner's analysis:

Stage 2: Opening Eyes. "Yes, on the defensive is exactly where they've put us.

"To me, the NDP resolution (passed nine days ago in Quebec City) that asks for Canada to leave Afghanistan reflects the fact that we're being pressed by the Taliban. I think it reflects a fear of casualties, and also this notion that Canadians should not be involved in doing counterviolence.

NDP leader Jack Layton "would probably say 'Let's offer enhanced development assistance or do peacekeeping'." But that is the very strategy that al-Qaeda detests, says Mr. Rudner. The jihadists regard western aid as bribery, corruption and a perversion of Islamic values.

Stage 3: Arising. In the past three weeks, al-Qaeda has bombed Turkish resorts, targeting Turkey's important tourism industry. They have already bombed banks, synagogues and the British consulate in Istanbul.

Mr. Rudner observes that Israeli and Palestinian Authority sources say there's evidence that al-Qaeda is trying to organize terror attacks on them to disrupt peace talks. Mr. Hussein says al-Qaeda will select Jordan for attack.

Stage 4: Downfall. "It's happening as we speak," Mr. Rudner says. "The Taliban are now struggling to bring down an apostate regime in Afghanistan." An apostate regime runs by man's law -- not by God's law. "Whether you're modern or traditional, republican or military, you're an apostate.

"The fighting in Iraq is not only between the Baathists and the Coalition, but between al-Qaeda and everybody else," Mr. Rudner says. Al-Qaeda has explicitly targeted the Shia-led government. "They say things about the Shia that I think even Hitler would have been reluctant to say about Jews, horrendously racist kinds of language -- 'these are serpents, snakes.'

"When al-Qaeda says today they're attacking the Arab Gulf, what they mean is that they could make the West walk and freeze" by depriving them of fuel for their cars and furnaces, Mr. Rudner says. "Or in Osama's words: 'I could bleed America bankrupt'."

How shaky are these oil-rich targets -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen, Libya, Algeria and Iran? Does al-Qaeda really expect to destroy them in four years?

"They are shaky in the sense that, as the dominos begin to fall and al-Qaeda does target oil, and does push the West onto the defensive, then the ability of those regimes to sustain themselves is grossly weakened.

"Saudi Arabia without oil is what? UAR without tourism and oil? Imagine terrorist attacks on those beautiful hotels going up in Dubai where people are prepared to spend $1,000 a night. You tell them they could be blown up in the market tomorrow morning, and they're gone.

"Bin Laden sees these governments as rickety shacks. You kick in the door and the structure collapses.

"I'm not justifying the shah of Iran," Mr. Rudner says. "But as the rug was pulled from under him, his regime collapsed. Now al-Qaeda plans the same fate for Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Jordan." Al-Qaeda wants us to "pull out of a robust society like that of Egypt, then they give it a couple of good kicks."

Mr. Hussein says al-Qaeda will target the U.S. economy with cyber-terrorism.

Stage 5: The Caliphate. "When they have knocked down all the Muslim countries and these governments no longer exist, they can mobilize: Hezbollah-type forces, standing armies and terror forces," says Mr. Rudner. "Now they can fight any kind of warfare."

Stage 6: Total Confrontation. "Now," Mr. Rudner says, "we go at Dar ul-harb. Dar ul-harb means the world of the sword -- the world of violence, of chaos, of moral degeneration -- in other words, us. And that's how we're seen.

"They intend to use all military means" to defeat the West and to replace it with global Dar ul-Islam -- the world of Islam, of the Caliphate, of Taliban-style rule under strict shariah law.

"And it's not just the West," Mr. Rudner says. "It's India and China."

It sounds insane.

Mr. Rudner replies: "If Osama bin Laden were listening to us now, he would say: 'Give me all the oil in the Middle East, all the populations of the Middle East and, boy, I could take on the rest of the world.'

"He would say: 'Imagine the weakness of your economy when we kick the trade from under you, when we deprive you of energy resources, when we hit your financial resources, when we stop depositing our foreign currency with you.'

"And he'd be saying, 'We're robust. We have all the oil, all the money, all the troops'."

Stage 7: Definite Victory. How could al-Qaeda mobilize westernized Islamic populations who are hostile to rigid, violent Taliban-style regimes?

"I don't think they do mobilize these populations," Mr. Rudner says. "But imagine a 'Grand Afghanistan'. You simply enact a fatwa saying that every male aged 14 to 40 must show up in the village square at a certain hour to receive military training and their gun. Everybody does. The alternative is death.

"We're describing how they see it," he says. "First of all, no, they will not win. We, the West, will not fragment, panic and run away. Nor will moderate and sometimes not-so-moderate Arab and Muslim regimes. They're going to defend themselves and we are going to defend ourselves."

Alliances will form -- some unusual. "They already have. Among our major sources of intelligence on al-Qaeda over the past five years are the Syrians -- not out of love for Canada, the United States and West, but because they recognize they are a target of the (radical) Muslim Brotherhood. In Iran, likewise.

"The terrorists intend to harm us and they will try," Mr. Rudner says. "They are already active in a range of activities that hurt our society. We know they've targeted trains, civil aviation and critical infrastructure."

The RCMP, he says, have at least 20 active terrorism investigations under way.

"The Canadian public finds it very difficult to accept the notion that there's evil. These people are evil in the sense that their values are utterly antithetical to ours -- and they want to impose them on us by force.

"Canadians think that if we could correct the root cause, we could correct this and it would disappear. Sorry. It's not sociopathy or psychopathy.

"You have to persuade the public that this is not posturing. Take a look at what they (terrorists) are really telling us. They mean it."

Makes it pretty clear that the Islamists are at war with us

[Grumplestillskin]

Iraq would have a civil war. About it. The consequences for America would probably be similar to what they were before the war (which was bugger all), although I would say there will be thousands - if not 10s of thousands - who now hate the US, whereas previously they either liked or were ambivilous to the country...Of course there will be some who like America more, but not as many who now hate her.......

[Dilloduck]

Iraq would have a civil war. About it. The consequences for America would probably be similar to what they were before the war (which was bugger all), although I would say there will be thousands - if not 10s of thousands - who now hate the US, whereas previously they either liked or were ambivilous to the country...Of course there will be some who like America more, but not as many who now hate her.......

Shit Grump------your big worry is that we might lose the miss congeniality award ????????

[SassyLady]

Shit Grump------your big worry is that we might lose the miss congeniality award ????????

This is what happens when we teach our children that there are no losers or winners.

My husband's favorite quote about competition is:

"Show me a GOOD loser and I'll show you a LOSER".

[Grumplestillskin]

Shit Grump------your big worry is that we might lose the miss congeniality award ????????

Did I say that?

[Gunny]

Iraq would have a civil war. About it. The consequences for America would probably be similar to what they were before the war (which was bugger all), although I would say there will be thousands - if not 10s of thousands - who now hate the US, whereas previously they either liked or were ambivilous to the country...Of course there will be some who like America more, but not as many who now hate her.......

Simplistic and naive assessment, at best.

And the same people who hate the US now hated us before we invaded Iraq. It amounts to penis envy.