The Confederate Flag

[DannyR]

You mean, the issues that formed the Confederacy have nothing to do with the Confederate flag?

Eh? You totally lost me now. Arguing the reasons behind the confederacy is a totally different issue than taking down one particular confederate symbol, the battle flag.

The removal of the confederate battle flag in not because its a confederate symbol, but because its a symbol raised by racists long after the war.

Most blacks have little problems with confederate symbols, and the proof of that can be seen by the overwhelming support the current Georgia flag, ALSO a confederate symbol, enjoys.

So no, the reasons behind the confederacy have no play in this topic. Its not the confederacy that tainted the battle flag, but its use a hundred years later!

[moderate democrat]

Its not the confederacy that tainted the battle flag, but its use a hundred years later!

bingo.

very well said.

[Yurt]

so you guys support the banning of a symbol, though its historical meaning has nothing to do with race or racism, because SOME racists have used it for their purposes...

why don't you ban the bible or the quran, both have been used by racists, murderers to further their agenda

[DannyR]

so you guys support the banning of a symbol, though its historical meaning has nothing to do with race or racism, because SOME racists have used it for their purposes...

Not just some racists, but enough to tarnish it severely.

And again with the "banning" language. Drop it already. Wanting not to use a tarnished symbol to represent everyone is not the same as banning it.

Do you deny that the swastika has a different meaning after the 1940's than it did before? You seem to be arguing that symbols are static and can't change. Thats not the case. Or do you really think that the "historical meaning" of the swastika trumps its use by the nazis? *lol*

why don't you ban the bible or the quran, both have been used by racists, murderers to further their agenda

Oh, I thought religious rights groups were complaining we'd already done that. And again with the poor analogy. Far more people use the bible than just racists. Ero, its not just a racist symbol. A cross is used by far more people than just racists too. Set that cross on fire however, and it has a different meaning because pretty much only the KKK and racists ever did that!

During civil war times it may have been an innocent flag. In the 1960's however it was forever tarnished. You can't just wish that away and claim it never happened.

You want to fly the Confederate flag, do so here:

[Jeff]

Not just some racists, but enough to tarnish it severely.

And again with the "banning" language. Drop it already. Wanting not to use a tarnished symbol to represent everyone is not the same as banning it.

Do you deny that the swastika has a different meaning after the 1940's than it did before? You seem to be arguing that symbols are static and can't change. Thats not the case. Or do you really think that the "historical meaning" of the swastika trumps its use by the nazis? *lol*

Oh, I thought religious rights groups were complaining we'd already done that. And again with the poor analogy. Far more people use the bible than just racists. Ero, its not just a racist symbol. A cross is used by far more people than just racists too. Set that cross on fire however, and it has a different meaning because pretty much only the KKK and racists ever did that!

During civil war times it may have been an innocent flag. In the 1960's however it was forever tarnished. You can't just wish that away and claim it never happened.

You want to fly the Confederate flag, do so here:

I can't remember the flag ever looking so good !!!

[Yurt]

i did stop the banning issue, however, you keep stating you want it stopped, you want people to stop flying the flag or whatnot. what you are advocating is a ban.

i wholly disagree "stopping" the use of something because some bad apples ruined it. you say on the one hand if a minority misuse a symbol, then the symbol is still permissable, whereas a majority misuse a symbol and it is no longer permissable. a logical contradiction.

further, a misuse may not always continue. you agree that any misuse is fairly recent and not historical. as such, the misuse is in fact a minority misuse over the history of the symbol. you can't just say that because a "majority" now misuses a symbol so we should now "stop" its use. you wouldn't stand for that if a majority now misused the bible, so why you support such a stance with a flag is beyond me.

[DannyR]

i did stop the banning issue, however, you keep stating you want it stopped, you want people to stop flying the flag or whatnot. what you are advocating is a ban.

A ban is forcible censorship. I've never advocated any such thing. Please quote exactly where I've used any such words. Only one using the word ban here has been you.

you say on the one hand if a minority misuse a symbol, then the symbol is still permissable, whereas a majority misuse a symbol and it is no longer permissable. a logical contradiction.

Contradiction? Not at all. The more people do something, the bigger the problem.

Eric Rudolph killing a few gays isn't likely to tarnish Christianity, because we all know he was a nutcase. The current war on terrorism has many of you conservatives saying all Islam is bad. But now you're going to argue numbers don't matter?

further, a misuse may not always continue.

Perhaps. But the number of years the confederate flag was used as a symbol of racism sort of outnumber the years it actually flew over the Confederacy itself, so I won't hold my breath.

you wouldn't stand for that if a majority now misused the bible, so why you support such a stance with a flag is beyond me.

ha. I'd fight tooth and nail if someone tried to put the bible as the state symbol representing me. Its not MY faith, and doesn't represent me at all.

And this again brings us back to the point you keep ignoring. The flag is a symbol of the ENTIRE state. Not just those who want to claim southern heritage. It represents everyone, and as such should be a symbol the entire state can rally behind.

Changing a state symbol isn't banning is use elsewhere. I'm not telling anybody to quit flying their own flags. I want MY flag to represent all the state, not just a portion of it.

[actsnoblemartin]

i'll tell ya what

blacks stop saying nigga

then ill take down the confederate flag

[DannyR]

i'll tell ya what

blacks stop saying nigga

then ill take down the confederate flag

That makes no sense at all.

One is an insult kept in the family. Blacks insulting each other is their own business.

The other is an insult aimed at someone else. A confederate flag is a symbol whites used to oppress blacks.

Or to put it another way. Suppose you had a sister. You probably wouldn't think anything of insulting her and treating her rudely. You're family and siblings tease each other. However if some stranger came up to her and started doing so, calling her a bitch and slut, thats ok?

[Yurt]

That makes no sense at all.

One is an insult kept in the family. Blacks insulting each other is their own business.

The other is an insult aimed at someone else. A confederate flag is a symbol whites used to oppress blacks.

Or to put it another way. Suppose you had a sister. You probably wouldn't think anything of insulting her and treating her rudely. You're family and siblings tease each other. However if some stranger came up to her and started doing so, calling her a bitch and slut, thats ok?

wrong. SOME white use it that way, does not mean "whites" use it that way. why don't we ban rolling paper as MOST rolling paper is used for ganja which is illegal....

[actsnoblemartin]

That makes no sense at all.

One is an insult kept in the family. Blacks insulting each other is their own business.

so, because im not black, the word nigga cannot be offensive to me?

The other is an insult aimed at someone else. A confederate flag is a symbol whites used to oppress blacks.

but free speech is about protecting speech that is inflammatory and not popular.

Or to put it another way. Suppose you had a sister. You probably wouldn't think anything of insulting her and treating her rudely. You're family and siblings tease each other. However if some stranger came up to her and started doing so, calling her a bitch and slut, thats ok?

im not saying we disagree here, I dont like the confederate flag. but should we really ban things we dont like?

even words, i dont like the word n***a but i wouldnt ban it.

hopefully i make some sense my good friend

[DannyR]

so, because im not black, the word nigga cannot be offensive to me?

Sure it can be. You can be offended by whatever you want to be. That doesn't change the fact that blacks often use it between themselves in a way a white person simply can't. Is that fair? No, but it is just a fact of life that those outside of a select group can't get away with the same sort of insults those on the inside can.

but free speech is about protecting speech that is inflammatory and not popular.

...

but should we really ban things we dont like?

Yurt is the only one here using the word ban. I do not advocate banning anything when it comes to expressing one's opinion. I do not advocate any censorship. However there are things one should not say or do out of respect for others. If they go ahead and say them, well, I guess you know where you stand with that person.

[Yurt]

Sure it can be. You can be offended by whatever you want to be. That doesn't change the fact that blacks often use it between themselves in a way a white person simply can't. Is that fair? No, but it is just a fact of life that those outside of a select group can't get away with the same sort of insults those on the inside can.

Yurt is the only one here using the word ban. I do not advocate banning anything when it comes to expressing one's opinion. I do not advocate any censorship. However there are things one should not say or do out of respect for others. If they go ahead and say them, well, I guess you know where you stand with that person.

you're advocating a ban:

1. An excommunication or condemnation by church officials.
2. A prohibition imposed by law or official decree: a ban on cigarette smoking on airplanes.
3. Censure, condemnation, or disapproval expressed especially by public opinion.
4. A curse; an imprecation.
5. A summons to arms in feudal times.

[DragonStryk72]

Eh? You totally lost me now. Arguing the reasons behind the confederacy is a totally different issue than taking down one particular confederate symbol, the battle flag.

The removal of the confederate battle flag in not because its a confederate symbol, but because its a symbol raised by racists long after the war.

Most blacks have little problems with confederate symbols, and the proof of that can be seen by the overwhelming support the current Georgia flag, ALSO a confederate symbol, enjoys.

So no, the reasons behind the confederacy have no play in this topic. Its not the confederacy that tainted the battle flag, but its use a hundred years later!

Well, a whole slew of arabs hate the flag now, and feel it stands for oppression, so do we get rid of our current flag? And the KKK, the largest racist organization in our country uses the red, white, and blue, so again, we have to get rid of it now?

[DragonStryk72]

Not just some racists, but enough to tarnish it severely.

And again with the "banning" language. Drop it already. Wanting not to use a tarnished symbol to represent everyone is not the same as banning it.

Do you deny that the swastika has a different meaning after the 1940's than it did before? You seem to be arguing that symbols are static and can't change. Thats not the case. Or do you really think that the "historical meaning" of the swastika trumps its use by the nazis? *lol*

Oh, I thought religious rights groups were complaining we'd already done that. And again with the poor analogy. Far more people use the bible than just racists. Ero, its not just a racist symbol. A cross is used by far more people than just racists too. Set that cross on fire however, and it has a different meaning because pretty much only the KKK and racists ever did that!

During civil war times it may have been an innocent flag. In the 1960's however it was forever tarnished. You can't just wish that away and claim it never happened.

You want to fly the Confederate flag, do so here:

Like, say, the quran or the bible being used as justification for war for the past, oh, 1500 years, wherein we go into the Middle East to "take back" a holy land we never owned, from the "savages", or then we have the Witch Hunts and the Inquisition to look at, then there's all the killing over the Quran interpretations, and seriously, that's where sectarian violence came from. Do you really want to go in the direction of saying religion hasn't cost lives, or been used for hate on a large scale?