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  1. #16
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    avatar: So who's responsible for putting American troops in jeopardy? Murtha or Bush? Who's the one who deployed our troops to that shithole?

    CSM: Yes, we've got to wage a war on terror, but we've got to do it in the right way.

    I say (and here's where I prob'ly radically depart from a lot of people here) the war should be a PR war, for the hearts and minds of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims. If we get into a shooting war, we've already lost, because the propaganda benefits for groups like al Queda from our heavy-handed invasion of Iraq are incalculable. al Qaeda is going around the region telling people, "See? It's just like we told you. The Americans want to take over the whole Middle East and make you convert to Christianity. It's the Crusades all over again. We need to rise up and defend our homelands."

    George Bush is the best fucking thing that ever happened to al Qaeda.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GW in Ohio View Post
    avatar: So who's responsible for putting American troops in jeopardy? Murtha or Bush? Who's the one who deployed our troops to that shithole?

    CSM: Yes, we've got to wage a war on terror, but we've got to do it in the right way.

    I say (and here's where I prob'ly radically depart from a lot of people here) the war should be a PR war, for the hearts and minds of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims. If we get into a shooting war, we've already lost, because the propaganda benefits for groups like al Queda from our heavy-handed invasion of Iraq are incalculable. al Qaeda is going around the region telling people, "See? It's just like we told you. The Americans want to take over the whole Middle East and make you convert to Christianity. It's the Crusades all over again. We need to rise up and defend our homelands."

    George Bush is the best fucking thing that ever happened to al Qaeda.
    Waging war requires a total committment. You cannot fight any conflict on one front alone and expect to win. In other words, PR alone wont do it, neither will bullets alone or diplomacy alone.

    The fact is, the terrorists were targeting the US long before we invaded Iraq. The difference between then and now is they are no longer able to operate freely as their funding is harder to get, logistics and communications are far tougher for them and they MUST focus on Iraq. Iraq is a front of OUR choosing and they cannot afford to lose there. I and many others prefer that to having a a similar front here in the US where WE could not afford to lose.

    Another thing about Iraq is that from a strategic perspective, it gives a base of operations in the Middle East that is not tied to Israel. It gives us the option and opportunity for disconnecting issues regarding Israel from the war on terror. I know some have tried to make the connection as part of the propaganda, but they are really stretching when they do.

  3. #18
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    CSM: Face the facts, my friend......

    There is no good outcome possible in Iraq. Whether we disengage next week or in 5 years the outcome will be the same. Events in Iraq will run their natural course no matter what we do.

    It's quite possible that in the end, Iran and Iraq will be joined in some way, because they're the only two predominantly Shiite states in the region.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GW in Ohio View Post
    CSM: Face the facts, my friend......

    There is no good outcome possible in Iraq. Whether we disengage next week or in 5 years the outcome will be the same. Events in Iraq will run their natural course no matter what we do.

    I disagree. I am not a fatalist. There has been many an instance where there were those who started out by saying "resistance is futile..." and in the case of the Islamic extremists, I refuse to believe that or succumb to the allure of surrendering.

    It's quite possible that in the end, Iran and Iraq will be joined in some way, because they're the only two predominantly Shiite states in the region.

    Possible. But they do not necessarily have to be united as a terrorist state.
    I truly fail to understand those who think we should not attempt this or that because it is doomed to failure, the cost is too high or it is too hard. I truly believe that mankind is far better than that!

  5. #20
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    What is striking to me:

    Liberals CHEER and PRAISE everybody and ANYBODY who supports MORE terrorism, indirectly, by calling for reduced troop capability/protections.

    Conservatives Cheer and Priase everybody and ANYBODY who supports our troops not just with hollow words, but with their ACTIONS.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  6. #21
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    CSM: The American public has turned against the war. So have the politicians.

    Without public support, there is no way to carry on this war. Even members of Bush's own party are jumping off the bandwagon.

    Face it, it's over. The boy-king fucked up....big time.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GW in Ohio View Post
    CSM: The American public has turned against the war. So have the politicians.

    Without public support, there is no way to carry on this war. Even members of Bush's own party are jumping off the bandwagon.

    Face it, it's over. The boy-king fucked up....big time.
    The American public has surrendered to the propaganda war of the terrorists and the MSM for their own personal political comfort. Americans truly are soft. They will deserve what they get if they dont see this through. The politicians are more interested in their personal gain than they are in doing whats right for this country and that means ALL the politicians.

    It won't be over until the last soldier leaves Iraq.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSM View Post
    The American public has surrendered to the propaganda war of the terrorists and the MSM for their own personal political comfort. Americans truly are soft. They will deserve what they get if they dont see this through. The politicians are more interested in their personal gain than they are in doing whats right for this country and that means ALL the politicians.

    It won't be over until the last soldier leaves Iraq.
    Booya - exactly.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  9. #24
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    dmp and csm: I respect your soldierly attitude, guys.

    I also understand that when you're in the middle of a shooting war, doubt and hesitation are bad because it could get you killed. I know that you have to grit your teeth and block out extraneous stuff and concentrate on the job at hand.

    I'm trying to get you to step back for a minute and look at this Iraq thing with a more detached eye.

    The mission was fucked from the start. The generals told Bush and Rummy we'd need at least twice as many troops as we had to do what they wanted to do. Bush and Rummy ignored that.

    The mission was carried out based on flawed intel. There was enough doubt about that WMD stuff that this operation should never have gone forward.

    Finally those idiots had no clue....no frickin' clue....what would happen once they deposed Saddam Hussein. But they should have known that the Shiite and Sunni elements would start going after one another once Saddam was deposed.

    And now, you guys want to try and rescue this operation. But there's no way to save it. We need to cut our losses and get out. Bush is persisting with this effort because he wants to rescue his legacy (good luck on that one!).

    Why the hell are you guys persisting? "Because we've already lost good people" is not a reason to continue with this mess.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GW in Ohio View Post
    dmp and csm: I respect your soldierly attitude, guys.

    I also understand that when you're in the middle of a shooting war, doubt and hesitation are bad because it could get you killed. I know that you have to grit your teeth and block out extraneous stuff and concentrate on the job at hand.

    I'm trying to get you to step back for a minute and look at this Iraq thing with a more detached eye.

    What makes you think I haven't? Because we disagree does not mean I haven't examined the issue.

    The mission was fucked from the start. The generals told Bush and Rummy we'd need at least twice as many troops as we had to do what they wanted to do. Bush and Rummy ignored that.

    Truthfully, I agreed with Schinseki about troop strength.


    The mission was carried out based on flawed intel. There was enough doubt about that WMD stuff that this operation should never have gone forward.

    Strategically the intel may have been flawed but that wasn't determined until AFTER we comitted. Hindsight is always 20/20. "woulda, shoulda, coulda" after the fact is pointless. Tactically, the execution was pretty darned good. It didn't start getting chooched up until we as a people decided to fight a politically correct wart. Believe me the ROE today are very different from the ROE at the beginning.


    Finally those idiots had no clue....no frickin' clue....what would happen once they deposed Saddam Hussein. But they should have known that the Shiite and Sunni elements would start going after one another once Saddam was deposed.

    I disagree. I am not saying they didn't plan poorly, but I know for a fact (because I did have a small part in the planning) that such factors were taken into consideration. Again, hindsight is pointless.

    And now, you guys want to try and rescue this operation. But there's no way to save it. We need to cut our losses and get out. Bush is persisting with this effort because he wants to rescue his legacy (good luck on that one!).

    Totally disagree!!! By that logic, we should have pulled out of WWII right after we got our asses kicked at Kaserine Pass, or Anzio, or the Battle of the Bulge. If we listen to your logic, we should quit whenever the going gets tough and NEVER engage in any endeavor unless assured of success before we start.

    Why the hell are you guys persisting? "Because we've already lost good people" is not a reason to continue with this mess.


    Obviously, you are oversimplifying. There are some of us who do not believe the situation is hopeless; we do not believe that because something is difficult, we should no only quit, but never start in the first place. We do not believe that appeasement and surrender will make things better for the US.
    There is a fundamental difference in psyche at work here.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jillian View Post
    Yep.

    Yep.

    Yep.

    Yep.

    Not to mention the fact that before he turned against the war, he was the neo-cons' pet dem (well, him and Lieberman). Thing is, I'm told the reason he started publicly opposing the way the war was being handled was because of his contacts in the Pentagon (and he had and has A LOT) practically begging him to take on Rumsfeld.

    the pentagon didn't like rumsfeld because he wanted a special forces quick response army and the generals wanted a big army with toys .....

    which army would you want?

    "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."

    ~Albert Camus

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by manu1959 View Post
    the pentagon didn't like rumsfeld because he wanted a special forces quick response army and the generals wanted a big army with toys .....

    which army would you want?
    Asking a lib/Dem what kind of Army they want is like asking a person which form of leprosy do they want. Their answer, way down deep inside, is "None".

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSM View Post
    Asking a lib/Dem what kind of Army they want is like asking a person which form of leprosy do they want. Their answer, way down deep inside, is "None".
    fair enough, you are military, which type would you want?

    "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."

    ~Albert Camus

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by manu1959 View Post
    fair enough, you are military, which type would you want?
    Hard to say. Personally I think we need both. I have no doubt that what we used in taking Bahgdad's airport would not be sufficient to face the Chinese. On the other hand, I think nuking terrorist training camps is a bit of overkill.

    What we really need is some of both on hand, an industrial/commercial base agile enough to produce both rather quickly and a civilian population willing and able to utilize and execute either. Unfortunately, we have none of the above.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSM View Post
    Hard to say. Personally I think we need both. I have no doubt that what we used in taking Bahgdad's airport would not be sufficient to face the Chinese. On the other hand, I think nuking terrorist training camps is a bit of overkill.

    What we really need is some of both on hand, an industrial/commercial base agile enough to produce both rather quickly and a civilian population willing and able to utilize and execute either. Unfortunately, we have none of the above.
    so was rumsfeld pushing the military in the right or wrong direction? as i understand it he was trying to create a more special forces military rather than the big lumbering WWII military and the old guard was pissed?

    "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."

    ~Albert Camus

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