West Point Colonel Questions Petraeus's Strategy

[Sitarro]

large scale conventional wars are what make or break nations when they happen, when was the last major conventional war before WW1? If you restructure our entire military to fight pissing matches in the desert we are going to be f**ked when we have to fight a real war.

Who cares, let the Air Force handle it.

[Gaffer]

We will not be fighting any conventional wars in the near future. Even a war with iran or n. korea would be very similar to iraq. The combat techniques are similar. Counter insurgency is simply learning to deal with the locals and getting them on your side. It's an addition to the regular combat techniques that all soldiers learn.

I think Gentile is just getting his name out there for future political ambitions or a slot with cnn as a military annalist.

[5stringJeff]

The Army tends to get tunnel vision, i.e. "fighting the last war." I agree with Gentile in many ways, in that at the end of the day, the Army has to be able to fight a large-scale conventional war, whether to defend America or an allied nation. If the Army puts too much emphasis on counterinsurgency, it will necessarily lose its ability to fight large-scale conflicts.

[Kathianne]

The Army tends to get tunnel vision, i.e. "fighting the last war." I agree with Gentile in many ways, in that at the end of the day, the Army has to be able to fight a large-scale conventional war, whether to defend America or an allied nation. If the Army puts too much emphasis on counterinsurgency, it will necessarily lose its ability to fight large-scale conflicts.

Can't they teach both? Seems that many if not most issues today involved COIN, yet the possibility of large scale conventional war seems evident, if only in our own minds?

[5stringJeff]

They can, and they should. The problem that LTC Gentile points out is that they don't.

[Kathianne]

They can, and they should. The problem that LTC Gentile points out is that they don't.

That strikes me as strange. I thought the military always had at least 5 scenarios going for contingencies? Most anything I've read from someone with military background, even just 'grunts' has a depth missing from many of the great 'academic' writers, whether in history or politics.

[rppearso]

That strikes me as strange. I thought the military always had at least 5 scenarios going for contingencies? Most anything I've read from someone with military background, even just 'grunts' has a depth missing from many of the great 'academic' writers, whether in history or politics.

Training does not work like that, just like training your body to do anything (power lifting to martial arts is something I am experenceing). You cant expect an entire army that has spent years fighting conterinsurgency in iraq to take a couple month course and voi la they are now large scale war fighters not to mention they are hella burned out and the fact that a movie is being made about stop-loss speaks volumes about the sentiments of many soldiers, how are we suppost to fight a large scale war with people who dont want to fight anymore. We are also jipping our soldiers out of the use of many very destructive national assets we posses that would make there jobs way easier and cut deployments without a draft but that wouldent be politicaly correct so we are going to take it in the pants as a result. Maybe the phylosophy and high level planning account for many scenarios but you have equipment issues (much equipment has been damaged or destroyed in iraq and most of our air force assets are due for retirement) and training issues. We have been bleeding off our national assets with this war and rebuilding and repairing expensive complicated complex war equipment is not cheap, easy or fast no matter what warm and fuzzy you get from the statement you made above.

[JohnDoe]

We will not be fighting any conventional wars in the near future. Even a war with iran or n. korea would be very similar to iraq. The combat techniques are similar. Counter insurgency is simply learning to deal with the locals and getting them on your side. It's an addition to the regular combat techniques that all soldiers learn.

I think Gentile is just getting his name out there for future political ambitions or a slot with cnn as a military annalist.

Gaffer, you know we got a trust in one another, even though with opposite views on war issues...so please keep this in mind when I say....

Are you going out of your mind???? lol hahahaha!

Seriously though! Let me explain....

I was JUST reading about how many people saddam had for his full Army at the time we invaded in 2003, and the figures I read were anywhere from 8000 to 10,000 men army, if you counted his trained reserve forces too....

Then I went to another article that spoke about Iran, and how many trained army troops they have in their total Army....It was 900,000, including their trained reserves! A few hundred thousand in their airforce alone!

A war with Iran, in my opinion would most certainly be a "conventional" war, in combination with the militia that would form from the masses!!!!

A NIGHTMARE for the USA right now....we can't jump the gun and think something like this could be done right now because of our "air Power", that is foolish beyond belief in my opinion! Just think about it....Iran has the largest army in the middle east! This would lead to Armageddon I am afraid to say.... Especially if done without an exit strategy and an entrance strategy that keeps in mind that Saudi Arabia and Israel would be pulled in to it too...along with Iraq!

Our Troops are tired Gaffer, we would need a draft before we jumped the gun on Iran knowing all of this, don't you think?

jd

[Gaffer]

Gaffer, you know we got a trust in one another, even though with opposite views on war issues...so please keep this in mind when I say....

Are you going out of your mind???? lol hahahaha!

Seriously though! Let me explain....

I was JUST reading about how many people saddam had for his full Army at the time we invaded in 2003, and the figures I read were anywhere from 8000 to 10,000 men army, if you counted his trained reserve forces too....

Then I went to another article that spoke about Iran, and how many trained army troops they have in their total Army....It was 900,000, including their trained reserves! A few hundred thousand in their airforce alone!

A war with Iran, in my opinion would most certainly be a "conventional" war, in combination with the militia that would form from the masses!!!!

A NIGHTMARE for the USA right now....we can't jump the gun and think something like this could be done right now because of our "air Power", that is foolish beyond belief in my opinion! Just think about it....Iran has the largest army in the middle east! This would lead to Armageddon I am afraid to say.... Especially if done without an exit strategy and an entrance strategy that keeps in mind that Saudi Arabia and Israel would be pulled in to it too...along with Iraq!

Our Troops are tired Gaffer, we would need a draft before we jumped the gun on Iran knowing all of this, don't you think?

jd

At the start of the invasion saddam had 25 divisions. One division is 8 to 10 thousand men. Don't know where they got their numbers from on the site you were reading.

Yes iran has a big army. It's a big country. The question is, how many of them will fight for the mullahs. The country is hurting economically because the mullahs are bleeding them dry. Other than the fanatical there won't be a full scale resistance.

Our airpower will take out their defenses, command and control, and armored units before we ever set foot in the country. During the air assaults the ground troops will move into position. I also think there will be major uprisings in the country once we begin the strikes. Just based on my readings about what the population has undergone there.

Equipment used to attack iran is not the equipment that is iraq at this time. It will be brought into the theater. And the attacks will come from the gulf, iraq and afgan. Causing the iranians to defend on three fronts.

The big question in a war with iran is what will their puppets do. hezbo and hamas and syria. Their agents will be making strikes throughout the world. But the important thing is to take out the head of the snake. All the problems in the middle east and all over the world originate in iran.

As I have said many times before, when congress has the balls to actually declare war then they have the right to draft. Until then it should remain an all volunteer force.

Ask a soldier or marine who has served in iraq and seen the casualties caused by iranian made IED's and rockets. And tell me they would be too tired to go take out iran and those factories. They would be all over that opportunity.

The military is not broke, tired or poorly equipt. They are not victims being sent off to war. They are taking the war to the enemy in the enemies land so the folks at home can go about their business as though no war exists. If iran gets a few more years to prepare the war will be brought here and an apocalyptic war is exactly what they want.

[glockmail]

Who cares, let the Air Force handle it.

That's a very valid point. When you have such a huge superiority in long range air power, I don't think that anyone could wage a "large scale war" against us. Just think of any major battle would have been in WW2 if we had just the AF technology that we have today. In Europe, we would have simply annihilated all German factories, bridges and fuel depots, leaving their army unsupplied and useless. We would have sunk all German and Japanese battleships within hours. In the Pacific theater, we would have simply ignored the string of islands leading up to Japan and attacked her head-on.

[Gaffer]

That's exactly why we won't be fighting any large scale war in the near future. Our air power gives us the capability to destroy a countries fighting force and allow our troops to move in within weeks. We took down iraq with THREE divisions. As you said we can by pass out lying areas and go straight for the juggler. Even fanatical troops have to have command and control.

[glockmail]

That's exactly what we did to Iraq, twice now. I remember in GW1 we took out their communications first, and had free reighn to decimate any battlre groups present. I especially remeber the tank kills, where the much touted Republican Guard had tanks bunkered in for weeks, and our AF would locate them, then our tank guys would simply pop out over a hill and take them out before they could aim their guns.

[Sitarro]

That's exactly why we won't be fighting any large scale war in the near future. Our air power gives us the capability to destroy a countries fighting force and allow our troops to move in within weeks. We took down iraq with THREE divisions. As you said we can by pass out lying areas and go straight for the juggler. Even fanatical troops have to have command and control.

With the advances in unmanned aircraft technology, satellite technology, etc., much of the military will be obsolete in a decade ....... kind of what happened to thousands of draftsmen when CAD appeared.... only a handful were needed to do the work of many.

Unmanned aircraft will be able to easily out maneuver anything with a human in it, G forces don't have the same effect on a Radio Controlled aircraft. The Russians, with their cute, air show fighters will be destroyed as an after thought by a generation that has been raised on video games. Add StarWars technology to this and voila, serious ass kicking of most large scaled threats.

[glockmail]

With the advances in unmanned aircraft technology, satellite technology, etc., much of the military will be obsolete in a decade ....... kind of what happened to thousands of draftsmen when CAD appeared.... only a handful were needed to do the work of many.

Unmanned aircraft will be able to easily out maneuver anything with a human in it, G forces don't have the same effect on a Radio Controlled aircraft. The Russians, with their cute, air show fighters will be destroyed as an after thought by a generation that has been raised on video games. Add StarWars technology to this and voila, serious ass kicking of most large scaled threats.

Heck, I envision insect size micro-fighters that would fly-crawl their way right into some dictator's bed at night and inject him with deadly poison, effectivly cutting the head off the snake on the first day of a conflict. Or even nano-sized machines that work their way into communications equipment and disable it, or get under the skin of soldiers and cause temporary paralysis or convulsions.

[Sitarro]

Heck, I envision insect size micro-fighters that would fly-crawl their way right into some dictator's bed at night and inject him with deadly poison, effectivly cutting the head off the snake on the first day of a conflict. Or even nano-sized machines that work their way into communications equipment and disable it, or get under the skin of soldiers and cause temporary paralysis or convulsions.

Weren't the Israelis working on using cockroaches for something?