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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gem View Post
    I care about the politics because it's the politics of the current Administration that put those soldiers in harms way to get wounded in an unjustified and unnecessary war, and it's the malfeasance of the current administration that has led to this situation at Walter Reed. I know one thing- whenever I embark on an adventure I make sure I have a reasonable contingency plan in place and do my best to make sure all systems are in good working order and ready to go. Obviously Bush&Co were slackin' in that respect. Oh, btw, Clinton hasn't been President in over 6 years. I don't know about you, but I prefer living in the present, not in someone elses past. Bitchin' about Clinton won't do a damn bit of good concerning what it is we need to deal with today. You're lagging behind, brother!

    Gem
    Yeah well when your trip to the grocery store holds the same gravity that runniing the country does, we can all look to you for an example. In the meantime here is another axiom for ya (since you like them so much); "those that ignore the past are doomed to repeat it".

    One more thing, I am not nor ever will be "your brother"; I choose my friends far more carefully than that!

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gem View Post
    So what you're telling me is that it was a military/government bureuacracy that left your ass "out there", underfunded, underequiped and underarmed and dependant on substandard medical facilities? If that's the case then why aren't you raising Holy Hell with the "Powers-that-be" that left your happy little ass out there to dry? Why blame it all on the liberals, when it was US liberals that were raising Holy Hell about the very same underfunded, underequiped and underarmed situation the Bush Administration subjected presumably you and your fellow soldiers to?

    I think it's time for folks like you to put the blame exactly where it belongs, unless it's easier for folks like you to vent your frustrations on "easier" and less "threatening" targets like liberals and the anti-war crowd.

    gem
    Again, you have no clue. YOU and people like you are to blame...I already told you why. Soldiers can overcome some of the worst conditions you can imagine and accomplish their mission; what they cannot overcome is the treasonous ploys of citizens and politicians like yourself.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSM View Post
    Yeah, I know exactly where it comes from....it stems from coming home wounded from a war and having arrogant and hypocritical folks just like you spit on me as I walked by. It comes from hearing folks like you call me ignorant and stupid because I think this country is worth fighting for. It comes from people like you who think ideas like freedom, loyalty, and patriotism are mere political talking points. It comes from people like you who tell me that soldiers (many of them my friends) deserve to be killed or maimed because they "volunteered and knew what they were getting into". It comes from people just like you who think they are morally superior to others because you embrace the cause celebre' ... whether said cause makes sense or not. It comes from people just like ou who make talking points out of dead soldiers and their grieving families.

    My anger stems from your arrogance, hypocricy and smug ignorance...that is where my anger comes from.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself."
    Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CSM View Post
    Yeah, I know exactly where it comes from....it stems from coming home wounded from a war and having arrogant and hypocritical folks just like you spit on me as I walked by. It comes from hearing folks like you call me ignorant and stupid because I think this country is worth fighting for. It comes from people like you who think ideas like freedom, loyalty, and patriotism are mere political talking points. It comes from people like you who tell me that soldiers (many of them my friends) deserve to be killed or maimed because they "volunteered and knew what they were getting into". It comes from people just like you who think they are morally superior to others because you embrace the cause celebre' ... whether said cause makes sense or not. It comes from people just like ou who make talking points out of dead soldiers and their grieving families.

    My anger stems from your arrogance, hypocricy and smug ignorance...that is where my anger comes from.
    Damn CSM, take the bitch out!

    Gem, you haven't a clue, FUCK YOU, and I mean that in the most respectable way.
    If ya can't prove it, don't say it.
    Bikes, babes, and beer, it don't get no better than that.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSM View Post
    Yeah, I know exactly where it comes from....it stems from coming home wounded from a war and having arrogant and hypocritical folks just like you spit on me as I walked by. It comes from hearing folks like you call me ignorant and stupid because I think this country is worth fighting for. It comes from people like you who think ideas like freedom, loyalty, and patriotism are mere political talking points. It comes from people like you who tell me that soldiers (many of them my friends) deserve to be killed or maimed because they "volunteered and knew what they were getting into". It comes from people just like you who think they are morally superior to others because you embrace the cause celebre' ... whether said cause makes sense or not. It comes from people just like ou who make talking points out of dead soldiers and their grieving families.

    My anger stems from your arrogance, hypocricy and smug ignorance...that is where my anger comes from.
    OK, now we're actually getting somewhere.
    And you know what? I hear you!
    Sounds like you were in 'Nam, CSM. I think there's something you need to know about me. I lost more than a few friends during that time when I tried to tell my fellow peaceniks that they shouldn't be spittin' on returning soldiers, that they- as a general rule anyway- weren't the problem- that it was the lies and deceptions of those in power and those that stood to gain so much from that military campaign that were the problem. Yeah, you may have thought you were fighting for our country, but the sad fact is you were misled by your own government and fought a war that, in hindsight, never needed to be fought at all. I hate to tell you this, CSM, but you were being used- by your own government and the corporations that made billions off of all those misled soldiers, you included. I also don't believe I've ever said that our soldiers deserved to die because "they knew what they were getting into". You're not the only one that lost friends in that war, CSM- and it hurt me just as bad as it hurt you.

    If I come across as "morally superior" to you maybe it's because I've been through my own battles and gotten screwed and hurt and faced death a few times myself. There are many battlefields in the journey of life, CSM, and a lot of those are concerned with learning the appropriate ways of dealing with misfortune and bitter disappointments. It is the battles within that are the hardest battles to win, and to win those battles one must learn to step out of oneself and learn to see the world or a situation through someone elses eyes. It is, in a word, an excercise in getting over oneself and learning to move forward and releasing the anger and pain of previous realities that have caused us pain.

    You say you were wounded. Well, you know what, I've been wounded from hostile fire on the battlefield of life too. And you know what? When I returned to that battlefield a month later I wasn't allowed, by law, to carry a weapon on that battlefield. But I returned to that battlefield, unarmed, as required by law, with a paralysed arm and still spitting out chunks of lead, and performed the duties I was ordered to do. There are many forms of courage, CSM. You know, it took a lot of courage to go back on the job, unarmed, by myself, on the graveyard shift, after I'd been hit, point blank, with a 16 guage shotgun in the back and the side of my face. Especially without a weapon with which to defend myself. But I did what I knew I had to do. You know, it took a lot of courage for those flower children in the 60's to walk up to those National Guardsmen that had their weapons leveled at them and stick the stems of flowers into the barrels of the weapons the Guardsmen had leveled at them, knowing full well that the order to open fire could come at any time too. It wasn't a courage born of fear or an instinct to survive, CSM, it was a courage borne of belief and conviction and a knowledge of right and wrong and a desire to do what we knew was right. It was a spiritual courage, CSM, the kind of courage Jesus tried to teach, and there is no level of courage greater than that.

    Know why we aren't seeing any protestors spitting on wounded returning soldiers today like we saw during the 'Nam years? It's because we learned the lessons of the mistakes of our past. It has nothing to do with anyone supporting a "cause celebre' ". We know now what not to do. Question is, have those that support Bush&Co and the War in Iraq learned their lessons from the past, as US liberals have? Have they learned what not to do? Have you?

    If we come across as being "superior" maybe it's because US liberals are disgusted at seeing our nation and our soldiers duped, not once but twice, in the same way in a single lifetime. This may come as a surprise to you, CSM, but US liberals support our troops and don't like what this administration, and the corporate entities they cater and kow-tow to, are putting soldiers much like yourself through. Instead of all the partisan bickering and hate and resentments from the past taking control of our lives wouldn't it be better to just let a peacenik liberal come up to you and hug you, say what needs to said, offer the deserved apologies and let the tears flow and watch the hatred, angst and bitterness melt away so that we can be one people and one nation once again? That, I think, would be the healing way, and I think both you and I know that there's plenty of healing that needs to be done in OUR country.

    I think you also need to know that I haven't written this from a space of ego or superiority. What I have written here comes from the heart. I know you can't see it, but I am wiping the tears of hope and forgiveness from my face as I write these last few words. That should serve as a clear indication of the depth of what I have come to believe and wish to share with you. In the crowd I run with we say that you can always count on your fair-weather friends to tell you what you want to hear, but it's your real friends that will tell you what you need to hear. I really would prefer to be your friend, CSM, but you're going to have to let me be that friend- and that choice would have to be up to you.

    Peace, Brother!

    Gem
    Patriotism is the last refuge...
    To which a scoundrel clings.
    Steal a little and they throw you in jail...
    Steal a lot and they make you King!

    Hell is not where you may be going.
    Hell is where you choose to remain.

    Dire Straits. & ...just to set me right!

  6. #21
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    What I have written here comes from the heart. I know you can't see it, but I am wiping the tears of hope and forgiveness from my face as I write these last few words. That should serve as a clear indication of the depth of what I have come to believe and wish to share with you.
    Try using your brain to think and you will see that liberals are using soldiers' lives to obtain power too.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilloduck View Post
    Try using your brain to think and you will see that liberals are using soldiers' lives to obtain power too.
    If we are doing what you say, Dilloduck, it would be because we want to gain the power to be in a place to do the next right thing. It does no good, and nothing good can be achieved, if we only judge someone elses outsides by our own insides. People often accuse others of what they themselves would do in similar circumstances. It is a psychological phenomenom known as 'projection'.

    Gem
    Patriotism is the last refuge...
    To which a scoundrel clings.
    Steal a little and they throw you in jail...
    Steal a lot and they make you King!

    Hell is not where you may be going.
    Hell is where you choose to remain.

    Dire Straits. & ...just to set me right!

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gem View Post
    If we are doing what you say, Dilloduck, it would be because we want to gain the power to be in a place to do the next right thing. It does no good, and nothing good can be achieved, if we only judge someone elses outsides by our own insides. People often accuse others of what they themselves would do in similar circumstances. It is a psychological phenomenom known as 'projection'.

    Gem
    Right--you're the "good guys" which is why I suggested you think with you brain and not your heart. If you truly believe liberal politicians are any more passionate about helping America rather than themselves you are the victim of another maladaptive coping mechanism--denial.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gem View Post
    OK, now we're actually getting somewhere.
    And you know what? I hear you!
    Sounds like you were in 'Nam, CSM. I think there's something you need to know about me. I lost more than a few friends during that time when I tried to tell my fellow peaceniks that they shouldn't be spittin' on returning soldiers, that they- as a general rule anyway- weren't the problem- that it was the lies and deceptions of those in power and those that stood to gain so much from that military campaign that were the problem. Yeah, you may have thought you were fighting for our country, but the sad fact is you were misled by your own government and fought a war that, in hindsight, never needed to be fought at all. I hate to tell you this, CSM, but you were being used- by your own government and the corporations that made billions off of all those misled soldiers, you included. I also don't believe I've ever said that our soldiers deserved to die because "they knew what they were getting into". You're not the only one that lost friends in that war, CSM- and it hurt me just as bad as it hurt you.

    If I come across as "morally superior" to you maybe it's because I've been through my own battles and gotten screwed and hurt and faced death a few times myself. There are many battlefields in the journey of life, CSM, and a lot of those are concerned with learning the appropriate ways of dealing with misfortune and bitter disappointments. It is the battles within that are the hardest battles to win, and to win those battles one must learn to step out of oneself and learn to see the world or a situation through someone elses eyes. It is, in a word, an excercise in getting over oneself and learning to move forward and releasing the anger and pain of previous realities that have caused us pain.

    You say you were wounded. Well, you know what, I've been wounded from hostile fire on the battlefield of life too. And you know what? When I returned to that battlefield a month later I wasn't allowed, by law, to carry a weapon on that battlefield. But I returned to that battlefield, unarmed, as required by law, with a paralysed arm and still spitting out chunks of lead, and performed the duties I was ordered to do. There are many forms of courage, CSM. You know, it took a lot of courage to go back on the job, unarmed, by myself, on the graveyard shift, after I'd been hit, point blank, with a 16 guage shotgun in the back and the side of my face. Especially without a weapon with which to defend myself. But I did what I knew I had to do. You know, it took a lot of courage for those flower children in the 60's to walk up to those National Guardsmen that had their weapons leveled at them and stick the stems of flowers into the barrels of the weapons the Guardsmen had leveled at them, knowing full well that the order to open fire could come at any time too. It wasn't a courage born of fear or an instinct to survive, CSM, it was a courage borne of belief and conviction and a knowledge of right and wrong and a desire to do what we knew was right. It was a spiritual courage, CSM, the kind of courage Jesus tried to teach, and there is no level of courage greater than that.

    Know why we aren't seeing any protestors spitting on wounded returning soldiers today like we saw during the 'Nam years? It's because we learned the lessons of the mistakes of our past. It has nothing to do with anyone supporting a "cause celebre' ". We know now what not to do. Question is, have those that support Bush&Co and the War in Iraq learned their lessons from the past, as US liberals have? Have they learned what not to do? Have you?

    If we come across as being "superior" maybe it's because US liberals are disgusted at seeing our nation and our soldiers duped, not once but twice, in the same way in a single lifetime. This may come as a surprise to you, CSM, but US liberals support our troops and don't like what this administration, and the corporate entities they cater and kow-tow to, are putting soldiers much like yourself through. Instead of all the partisan bickering and hate and resentments from the past taking control of our lives wouldn't it be better to just let a peacenik liberal come up to you and hug you, say what needs to said, offer the deserved apologies and let the tears flow and watch the hatred, angst and bitterness melt away so that we can be one people and one nation once again? That, I think, would be the healing way, and I think both you and I know that there's plenty of healing that needs to be done in OUR country.

    I think you also need to know that I haven't written this from a space of ego or superiority. What I have written here comes from the heart. I know you can't see it, but I am wiping the tears of hope and forgiveness from my face as I write these last few words. That should serve as a clear indication of the depth of what I have come to believe and wish to share with you. In the crowd I run with we say that you can always count on your fair-weather friends to tell you what you want to hear, but it's your real friends that will tell you what you need to hear. I really would prefer to be your friend, CSM, but you're going to have to let me be that friend- and that choice would have to be up to you.

    Peace, Brother!

    Gem
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself."
    Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
    I would expect nothing less from a sufferer of evil, Stephanie. What can be so bullshit, so pukey, about a recognition of a truth that has saved the sanity, freedom and lives of so many? As we say in the crowd I run with, "Though you may come to scoff may you remain to believe."

    Gem
    Patriotism is the last refuge...
    To which a scoundrel clings.
    Steal a little and they throw you in jail...
    Steal a lot and they make you King!

    Hell is not where you may be going.
    Hell is where you choose to remain.

    Dire Straits. & ...just to set me right!

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gem View Post
    I would expect nothing less from a sufferer of evil, Stephanie. What can be so bullshit, so pukey, about a recognition of a truth that has saved the sanity, freedom and lives of so many? As we say in the crowd I run with, "Though you may come to scoff may you remain to believe."

    Gem
    Ya Ya---and your crowd says "Gore was robbed" too ~

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilloduck View Post
    Right--you're the "good guys" which is why I suggested you think with you brain and not your heart. If you truly believe liberal politicians are any more passionate about helping America rather than themselves you are the victim of another maladaptive coping mechanism--denial.
    Not exactly true there, Dilloduck. What I have learned during the twenty-five years of my current re-incarnation allows me to discern the difference. The problems you allude to are not defined by political or partisan lines- they are ubiquitous human problems, and they will be found among all parties, all nations, races, colors, and creeds. I may be a little more aware of all that than you think I am.

    Gem
    Patriotism is the last refuge...
    To which a scoundrel clings.
    Steal a little and they throw you in jail...
    Steal a lot and they make you King!

    Hell is not where you may be going.
    Hell is where you choose to remain.

    Dire Straits. & ...just to set me right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gem View Post
    If we are doing what you say, Dilloduck, it would be because we want to gain the power to be in a place to do the next right thing. It does no good, and nothing good can be achieved, if we only judge someone elses outsides by our own insides. People often accuse others of what they themselves would do in similar circumstances. It is a psychological phenomenom known as 'projection'.

    Gem
    How is it right to attack and undermine those that serve this nation for political power?

    If you aren't going to do whats right without power, why the heck should anyone believe you are going to do what's right when you get it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilloduck View Post
    Ya Ya---and your crowd says "Gore was robbed" too ~
    What has that got to do with the price of kumquats in Uganda in Feburary, Dilloduck?

    Gem
    Patriotism is the last refuge...
    To which a scoundrel clings.
    Steal a little and they throw you in jail...
    Steal a lot and they make you King!

    Hell is not where you may be going.
    Hell is where you choose to remain.

    Dire Straits. & ...just to set me right!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by avatar4321 View Post
    How is it right to attack and undermine those that serve this nation for political power?

    If you aren't going to do whats right without power, why the heck should anyone believe you are going to do what's right when you get it?
    Actually US liberals have been asking that same question concerning the hard-core Christian Conservatives for a long, long time.

    Gem
    Mas
    Patriotism is the last refuge...
    To which a scoundrel clings.
    Steal a little and they throw you in jail...
    Steal a lot and they make you King!

    Hell is not where you may be going.
    Hell is where you choose to remain.

    Dire Straits. & ...just to set me right!

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