Energy Independent

[Mr. P]

Why not? Occasionally I’ll remember something from my childhood I hadn’t thought of in years. Last week while listening to a discussion on hybrid cars, I remembered a few models I build as a kid. Some of the older folks may remember models that came with an electric motor kit. The motor was 95% complete all you had to do was turn copper wire around the magnets, hit it with a battery and bingo it worked.

This made me think about a larger scale electric motor one that is driven by a generator not batteries. The motor is started by battery power then turns a generator that then powers the motor and propels the car with some voltage directed to the batteries for charging when needed.
No gas or external charging needed.

I think this is practical and possible. What’s wrong with this? Would the generator need to be a monster? It seems so simple and straight forward to me, what am I missing?

[Mr. P]

Come on tech nerds! What's the deal, isn't this possible?

[Missileman]

Come on tech nerds! What's the deal, isn't this possible?

http://burtleburtle.net/bob/physics/whythere.html

It's apparently impossible to construct such a system.

Did you see the news about the doctor who got saltwater to burn by applying a RF signal to the test tube it was in? The radio waves were causing the separation of the oxygen and hydrogen which was lit on fire as it left the top of the test tube...achieved 3000 degree temp...melted the test tube. That would seem a pretty cheap way to make steam to run a turbine generator.

[ranger]

While we develop the technology to try to accomplish this, how about using the current technology to drill for oil in ANWR and other places. Everyone is saying that supply and demand are driving these high prices, how about adding more to the supply.

[Missileman]

While we develop the technology to try to accomplish this, how about using the current technology to drill for oil in ANWR and other places. Everyone is saying that supply and demand are driving these high prices, how about adding more to the supply.

With all the different grants that our government gives out for useless shit, I'd like to see a huge reward offered to a company that can come up with a production-worthy, practical, alternate-powered vehicle. Something like an electric car that is recharged with a generator like I mentioned above. The car and generator would be sold as a unit.

[PostmodernProphet]

http://burtleburtle.net/bob/physics/whythere.html

It's apparently impossible to construct such a system.

Did you see the news about the doctor who got saltwater to burn by applying a RF signal to the test tube it was in? The radio waves were causing the separation of the oxygen and hydrogen which was lit on fire as it left the top of the test tube...achieved 3000 degree temp...melted the test tube. That would seem a pretty cheap way to make steam to run a turbine generator.

what powered the machine that produced the radio waves......

[Missileman]

what powered the machine that produced the radio waves......

Regular AC current I imagine. If the energy needed to get the separation to occur is lower than the energy that can be produced from the heat generated it would be a practically free source of electricity. The only thing that would need to be added occasionally is salt water.

[PostmodernProphet]

If the energy needed to get the separation to occur is lower than the energy that can be produced from the heat generated it would be a practically free source of electricity.

and that is the big question...I saw the video of the demonstration of his method.....the machine he used to "activate" or whatever you would call it, the process was at least three feet square....my assumption was, it needed a large amount of electricity......it seems to me that all the hydrogen vehicles out there now run on hydrogen gas that was produced away from the vehicle.....I assumed this was because you needed a pretty good sized machine to produce it......

[crin63]

Why not? Occasionally I’ll remember something from my childhood I hadn’t thought of in years. Last week while listening to a discussion on hybrid cars, I remembered a few models I build as a kid. Some of the older folks may remember models that came with an electric motor kit. The motor was 95% complete all you had to do was turn copper wire around the magnets, hit it with a battery and bingo it worked.

This made me think about a larger scale electric motor one that is driven by a generator not batteries. The motor is started by battery power then turns a generator that then powers the motor and propels the car with some voltage directed to the batteries for charging when needed.
No gas or external charging needed.

I think this is practical and possible. What’s wrong with this? Would the generator need to be a monster? It seems so simple and straight forward to me, what am I missing?

I've often wondered the same thing. I'm thinking that if it were a viable solution that power plants would have come with something along those lines. I've worked in dozens of power plants and those guys are all about the money so it just seems someone would've come up with a money making solution like that.

[glockmail]

.... The motor is started by battery power then turns a generator that then powers the motor and propels the car with some voltage directed to the batteries for charging when needed.
.....what am I missing?

You just described a perpetual motion machine.

[Mr. P]

You just described a perpetual motion machine.

I keep going over this with diagrams on paper...I just don't see why it wouldn't work.

Battery starts motor, motor turns generator, generator supplies volts to motor...It's a loop...NO?

[glockmail]

I keep going over this with diagrams on paper...I just don't see why it wouldn't work.

Battery starts motor, motor turns generator, generator supplies volts to motor...It's a loop...NO?

Yes it is a loop. That’s what a “perpetual motion machine” is.

Forget about what powers the vehicle for a moment and just look at the vehicle itself, rolling along at a constant speed on a flat smooth road. You have the external forces of air and rolling resistance that want to slow it down, and those have to be overcome by some external energy source to keep the vehicle moving. That’s a simple law of physics that cannot be broken.

In a standard vehicle that external energy is gas or diesel, temporarily stored on board. That chemical energy is converted to mechanical energy in a process that is at most 35% efficient. The remaining 65% is lost through heat.

In your concept vehicle, you start out with some “external” energy stored in the battery as chemical energy. That chemical energy is then converted to electrical energy in a process that may be about 90% efficient. The remaining 10% is lost through heat (the battery will heat up a bit). That electrical energy is then converted to mechanical energy by an electric motor, which might be 90% efficient, since some of the energy heats up the windings and bearings in the motor. Next that mechanical energy is converted to electrical through generator, which might be 90% efficient, since the generator windings and bearings heat up. Next that electrical energy is supposed to be converted to mechanical energy and chemical energy (to move the vehicle and charge the battery), both processes that create heat, and thus are less than 100% efficient. Except for your initial batter charge, no where is there any energy available to overcome the inescapable inefficiencies of converting energy forms, never mind overcoming the external forces trying to slow the vehicle down.

[Mr. P]

Yes it is a loop. That’s what a “perpetual motion machine” is.

Forget about what powers the vehicle for a moment and just look at the vehicle itself, rolling along at a constant speed on a flat smooth road. You have the external forces of air and rolling resistance that want to slow it down, and those have to be overcome by some external energy source to keep the vehicle moving. That’s a simple law of physics that cannot be broken.

In a standard vehicle that external energy is gas or diesel, temporarily stored on board. That chemical energy is converted to mechanical energy in a process that is at most 35% efficient. The remaining 65% is lost through heat.

In your concept vehicle, you start out with some “external” energy stored in the battery as chemical energy. That chemical energy is then converted to electrical energy in a process that may be about 90% efficient. The remaining 10% is lost through heat (the battery will heat up a bit). That electrical energy is then converted to mechanical energy by an electric motor, which might be 90% efficient, since some of the energy heats up the windings and bearings in the motor. Next that mechanical energy is converted to electrical through generator, which might be 90% efficient, since the generator windings and bearings heat up. Next that electrical energy is supposed to be converted to mechanical energy and chemical energy (to move the vehicle and charge the battery), both processes that create heat, and thus are less than 100% efficient. Except for your initial batter charge, no where is there any energy available to overcome the inescapable inefficiencies of converting energy forms, never mind overcoming the external forces trying to slow the vehicle down.

OK a radiator/ cooling fan then, to keep some heat/power loss at bay.

I'm not so concerned with physics of drag or friction at this point but more about this being a workable operating system.

I need to make a diagram...then again you guys would steal it!

On the bold part..is there such a thing on internal combustion engines?

[glockmail]

OK a radiator/ cooling fan then, to keep some heat/power loss at bay.

I'm not so concerned with physics of drag or friction at this point but more about this being a workable operating system.

I need to make a diagram...then again you guys would steal it!

On the bold part..is there such a thing on internal combustion engines?

You don't seem to be getting it Mr. P. You are describing a perpetual motion machine. Even if you had 100% efficiency on all the components, it still would not work because of the laws of physics.

Radiators and fans are simply mechanisms that disipate the heat away from the components. They don't make anything more efficient; they just keep it from overheating and breaking down.

An internal combustion engine is simply a device that converts chemical energy (like gas or diesel) into mechanical energy. At best they are about 35% efficient.